Calvary Chapel Franchise, Calvary Chapel Lawsuit, Spiritual Abuse, Spiritual Bullies, SURVIVOR STORIES

Calvary Chapel Visalia Personal Story: Tina’s Story

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Calvary Chapel is a “franchise” of churches with over 1,500 churches founded by Pastor Chuck Smith.  There is no hierarchy structure in place to hold pastors accountable if they behave like bullies or abuse their authority.  In light of the upcoming hearing March 4/5, 2013, I want to highlight personal stories.

Please be sure to read these posts for further information on this case.  Tina’s story is only one of countless stories.  Other stories are of alleged money corruption, alleged physical and sexual abuse.

More articles can be found in these posts:

#WhoWouldJesusSue: Media FAQs and Resources

#WhoWouldJesusSue: Breaking News Advisory – Press Release #1

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In August of 2012, I visited Calvary Chapel Abuse blog after noticing hits on my blog from that site (Huge legal victory for Free Speech and Church Abuse bloggers).  After reading Alex’s story, I reached out to him, encouraging him as he was hearing rumblings of the possibility that his father might sue him.

Weeks later, Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier’s attorneys issued a press release acknowledging their intentions to file a defamation lawsuit.  One person named as defendant on the press release was Tina Jenkins.  In September of 2012, Tina contacted me.  We exchanged several e-mails and I asked if she could tell me her story for publication on my blog.  She agreed and started working on her story.

Eventually, Bob and Gayle Grenier did file a lawsuit against their step-son/son and former church member, Tim Taylor; however, Tina’s name was absent from the lawsuit.  Of course that was a huge relief to Tina, but she said I could still tell her story.  She was strongly connected to the situation and wanted something to be done about the problems she saw at Calvary Chapel Visalia.  I’ve been saving her story all this time.  Tina had been sharing bits and pieces of her story on the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog, but here it is in its entirety.   It is a bold and brave step to speak out against an abuser.  Thank you, Tina.  Your voice is one of many who has suffered this kind of treatment from a pastor.

photo credit: heanster via photopin cc
photo credit: heanster via photopin cc

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O Lord, who may abide in Your tent?
Who may dwell on Your holy hill?
He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,
And speaks truth in his heart.
He does not slander with his tongue,
Nor does evil to his neighbor,
Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
In whose eyes a reprobate is despised,
But who honors those who fear the Lord;
He swears to his own hurt and does not change;
He does not put out his money at interest,
Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things will never be shaken.

Psalm 15

The following is Tina’s story, in her own words, reflecting her thoughts and opinions of  her experiences at Calvary Chapel Visalia under Pastor Bob Grenier.

Tina’s Calvary Chapel Visalia Story

September 28, 2012

Written by Tina Jenkins

I started attending Calvary Chapel Visalia in the fall of 1988. What appealed to me at that time was the very relaxed style, the jeans, shorts and flip-flops. I was born Catholic and married a man who was Methodist, so we had to find a church we both agreed upon. I had a wonderful friend who attended CCV at the time and she encouraged me to come check it out.

The first year or so, I volunteered in the Children’s Ministry where I taught third and fourth grade. It was there I met Paul Grenier, he was in my class. Those were good memories for me. Paul was both smart and funny. He always held a special place in my heart along with a handful of other students. I was newly married with no kids of my own, probably about 21 or 22.

As a new Christian, I was eager to serve and learn. The first interesting thing I remember was, the name changed to Immanuel Christian Fellowship. If my memory serves me right, Bob told the congregation it was so he could teach freely. I never questioned it, I trusted Bob. I also noticed during that time, that many really good people left.  I was too young to question anything, I loved this new church I found.  I trusted Bob and had no idea he had a sinister side to him.  Knowing what I do now, I wish I would have left like the rest of them.

Years, had gone by and I had four children and I was busy with them.  I only attended church and was not involved.  As the kids began to get a little older around 2002, I was approached by a pastor on staff and asked if I would be interested in the Children’s Ministry.  That was something I had never considered and didn’t think I could run three services.  After some thought, I decided that I would give it a try.  I loved it!  Working with the children and awesome teachers that we had, blessed me so much!

I served with my whole heart as unto the Lord.  I even set my family aside many times to serve, which I shouldn’t have.  I did notice from time to time there was an over emphasis on the building, café and church grounds at the expense of the people.  The children’s ministry and the youth ministry struggled while the main sanctuary and anything that had to do with the adults was deluxe.  It made my heart ache.  But I did what I could to make the children’s ministry the best it could be.

During that time Bob hired a good friend of mine who worked hard, from sun up to sun down.  I never and I mean never saw him sitting around being lazy.  This man was a brand new believer and was eager to serve the Lord.  Bob capitalized on that and began to work him relentlessly.  It was almost disgusting the way that Bob had this gentleman cater to him, like Bob was the president and he was his slave.  But this guy loved Bob and would have done anything for him.   Something happened that Bob decided to let him go. Bob said that he wasn’t performing his job.  Ok that’s fine, but there are ways to let people go especially in the church. I believe that it should have been handled in a way that didn’t crush his spirit.  When he was let go, I was very disturbed by it because I knew he did work hard and I couldn’t understand it.

Something about this whole situation didn’t make sense. When it was announced in a staff meeting, they asked if everyone was OK with that or something to that manner.  I remember saying, “No.”  As I can recall, I was the only one that had anything to really say.  Everyone was just quiet. I looked around and thought what is wrong with you people, you’re all ok with it?  (Now I know why they were silent, they knew Bob better than I did apparently.)  I left that meeting shaking my head, but I didn’t know that I would be continually harassed by Bob from that point on.  He was always asking me how I was doing and not in a concerned way, more like trying to find out what side of the fence I was on.  One afternoon while I was working in one of the classrooms, the church secretary came in and said, “Bob wants to talk to you.”  I told her that I didn’t want to talk to him.  She left and then came back and said, “Right now.”  At this point I was crying and I walked out to the hallway and Bob and Greg Dowds quickly rushed me to Bob’s back office behind the church where no one would be.  Bob sat me down and began to try to explain why he had fired this guy.  I just looked at him, finally he got frustrated and began to proceed to raise his voice at me telling me how lazy and blah, blah, blah my friend was.  After he vented his anger out, he then said, “And if you repeat that, then you can leave to!”  I was in shock!  I looked over at Greg who stared at the floor and didn’t even make eye contact and I just thought this guy isn’t who I thought he was at all.

He can’t kick me out of the church?  Can he?  This man isn’t a pastor at all, he just basically told me to hit the door if I repeated what HE just vomited all over me.  It was at that instance that I knew there was something wrong Bob. He was now trying to bully me into submission.  I felt such a demonic feeling that it made me sick to my stomach. I went home that night and I thought how could this be… the church that I loved so much and raised my kids in and now I’m being bullied around by my pastor? I really couldn’t wrap my mind around it. I felt as if my soul was molested.  Greg Dowds called me that night to tell me what a wonderful person I was and how much I did for the children’s ministry. I think it was Bob’s way of doing a little damage control.  There was never an apology from Bob.

Many might wonder why I stayed after that.  It was very complicated in my mind.  My children were born and raised in this church and this was our social life.  I also loved the people there like family and I didn’t want to “disturb the church.”  So I decided to stay which continued the abuse.

Anyway, I stayed and kept my mouth shut so my children would not have to leave the church they loved.  Shortly after that meeting with Bob and Greg, I went into pastor Jim’s office and told him that I never wanted to be left alone with Bob again and if he could please be present if Bob ever needed to talk to me.  Jim’s words were something like, “Did he say something to you?”  I just shook my head no because I didn’t want to disclose what Bob had said and risk being kicked out of the church.  I continued to serve as the Children’s Ministry Director but I had a plan to get out of leadership quietly.  I was not going to be a part of a corrupt leadership.  The weeks following this harassment I just about had a nervous break down. I tried to hide the pain but it was showing and the people who knew me began to ask if I was ok.  I just shook my head “no” but I didn’t say a word. There is nothing worse than seeing the man who is bullying you around with intimidating stares, and a threat hanging over your head, then speak about the love of God from the pulpit.  It was the most disturbing thing in the world. Being the type of person who wears my emotions on my sleeve, my face showed the grief I was feeling.  I was told that I couldn’t go around looking like that and I needed to basically plaster a smile on. This was even more abuse and every time I pulled up at the church I would just start shaking and crying.  I finally went in and told Assistant Pastor Jim that I couldn’t work like this anymore.  I had to step out of the ministry.

Just about the time I stepped out of ministry, they hired a new pastor for the youth. He was a breath of fresh air and had a genuine love for God and the youth. He asked me if I would help in the youth department and I told him I would assist but I wouldn’t get back into a position where I was being paid.  I didn’t want to be a part of leadership there, I saw the arrogance and mean spirit of Bob firsthand.  Well as I helped in the youth, I ended up loving it as well.  I was still very gun-shy and tried to keep my distance.  I don’t know exactly what happened but Bob let him go too. I venture to say because he wasn’t a yes man.  He would speak up when he needed to and that is just not acceptable to Bob.  Bob runs the show with an iron fist.  He basically told him on a Wednesday night that he was to perform worship and someone else would teach.  I was called aside and told that he quit to pursue his music career.  My first thought was, “What?” Then I thought, “I know him and he wouldn’t just leave the kids he loves, that’s not like him.” The look on his face that night was hurt beyond measure and I knew something was wrong. It all came back to me again, how they treated my friend a year prior and how Bob bullied me around and I thought I’m not going through this again.

Because this youth pastor was let go so suddenly, we decided to have a going away party for him at my friend Deanna house. We invited the youth group and anyone else who wanted to say good-bye and good luck. After that evening, it was decided that we would start a Bible study there and he could lead it. Anyone was invited to come, even those who didn’t attend Calvary Chapel.  My husband and I intended to purchase Deanna’s home and continue to have the study.  Pastor Mike called me to ask me how the move was going and I told him fine. He then proceeded to ask me if I was going to continue having that Bible study in my home after I bought the house and I said, “Yes, is that a problem?” His reply was, “Well…not for me.” I knew exactly who had the problem with that, the man who needs to control everything. It was then that I decided to leave. I thought to myself, I will never go to a church that feels they have the authority to tell me I cannot have a Bible study in my home. Prior to that call from Mike, Bob glared at me in the foyer of the church with his arms folded. My husband walked right up to him and said, “Hi Bob how are you this morning?” Later Russ said, “Wow did you see him staring you down?” I said I was aware he was trying to intimidate me into submission again. He continued to pick apart the Bible study in my home until everyone finally quit coming. In my opinion, he is relentless and ruthless.

I first stayed because I didn’t want to remove my children from the church they loved and then I left so Bob could never harm my children spiritually. I had suffered enough under his leadership and in the end my children were indeed effected by all of this….they should have been able to have a wonderful church to attend all their lives, with wonderful memories and now all they have is the memories of a pastor who bullied around their mother. We attend church now but it is very few and far between and my children just sit with us and they don’t get involved and neither do I. My heart and soul are still damaged.

After I left, I began to wonder about a few things…

Why was the name changed from CCV to Immanual Christian Fellowship?

Why did all those good people leave around this time?

What was Glick going to bring forward to the church?

How come I never saw a church budget the entire time I was there? Didn’t even know there was such a thing until after I left and noticed other churches were completely transparent with the financial records.

Where is all the tithe money going exactly?

Why wasn’t it ever made known who the board was? I guess it wouldn’t have mattered anyway if they really weren’t able to make a difference if you had a complaint.

Who actually owns that church property? Who is on the deed?

Then the blogs began to roll and new info was coming out….what happened to the Grenier boys? Paul? It was then I knew I needed to take a stand to give these boys some credibility to their accusations. After experiencing what I had personally, I could see those things happening to them.

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In addition to sharing with me her personal story, Tina also sent me a copy of the letter her family sent to Pastor Bob Grenier saying they would no longer be attending the church.  Here it is:

Sent May 11, 2007 at 8:57 am

Dear Pastor Bob,

This email is to inform you that we will no longer be attending Calvary Chapel Visalia for the following reasons:

I believe it is my duty to you, and the wonderful people of Calvary Chapel, to speak the truth in love. I have prayed for you that love and compassion would fill your heart, and I will continue to pray for you and the Body of Christ that God has placed in your care.

I would first like to say that back in 1988, I was saved under your ministry, and my husband shortly afterward. We have raised 4 wonderful children in the Lord, under the teachings and leadership of those at Calvary Chapel. We have also built many deep and loving relationships with the members of the body, as we consider them family. I appreciate all of the wonderful things that you have done for Calvary Chapel and the community as a whole. Your work as a police chaplain, the starting of Reaching Youth, the starting of a Community Prayer, all of which God has blessed, and may more I’m sure.

However over the past 5 or 6 years, while I was in leadership, I have observed some things that have broken my heart.  One of which is the lack of love and compassion from you as the senior pastor.  In the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13:1 says, “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.” I will tell you with a sincere heart, that you are one of the best Bible teachers I have heard and because of this I would consider myself to be well grounded. I believe it is God’s will that you represent Him correctly to the Body of Christ, that is in your care, not only in word but actions (with compassion and love). As you know, our actions speak louder than our words. As a senior pastor the love & compassion for his flock should be a given and should be overflowing.

I have watched and seen many in leadership just disappear.  I have also observed that the church is run by fear and intimidation. It appears that our church is run like a corporate business, with you as the CEO, rather than a shepherd taking tender care of the flock. I learned very quickly not to do or say anything that might upset you out of fear, not respect. While at a staff meeting you mentioned, “This is not a country club and I know a pastor that fired his whole staff and replaced them.” This type of statement is very offensive, shows no love nor appreciation, and would offend those on a construction site, let alone the house of God. Another thing I guess I just never got over was when I was taken to the back room and where you shared your disgruntled feelings toward someone I hold dear to my heart and then told me if I repeated it to him than I can also leave. That blew me away and needless to say showed me your heart. Just to make you aware, XXXX got saved at Calvary and was a new believer when you placed him in a position of leadership. He loved and respected you and as far a I could see would have done anything for you, even given his life. You in your wisdom, if you weren’t pleased with his service, could have let him go in a way that would have spared his heart. Since he left, he has questioned his faith and really has not found another church family. If things were handled the way Jesus would handle them, then he would still be attending Calvary.

I know that you have a deep relationship with God, but intense stares of disapproval in the foyer because of a Bible study, that by your standard, is not “Calvary ordained”, does not show God’s love. This Bible study is for adults as well as children to hear the Word of God and there have been many people who do not even attend church, come and hear the Word. It wasn’t meant to cause waves, nor was it meant to be Calvary ordained. It was meant to be “God ordained”. It’s just good Christian people getting together for the Word, worship and fellowship. Pastor XXXX has a gift from God as you well know, otherwise you wouldn’t have hired him. Please don’t let your sense of having to be in control, and pride hinder the work of God. Just as a sub note, I lead a Bible study with my parents that is not “Calvary ordained ” and my parents have grown in the Lord and my mom is now saved. I’ve seen a lot of half-truths being spoken to the flock and knew my head was on the chopping block for extending to Pastor XXXX our future home for a Bible study.

In addition, it is apparent to all that visit our facility, that it is beautiful and well maintained. But there is an overemphasis on this, while other ministries suffer financially. The youth and children’s ministry should always be above the facility, since they are the future church. Unfortunately, having worked in the children’s ministry I know they come last. Honestly, we could do without all of the elaborate things we have obtained. I personally would rather sit on a lawn chair in the park and hear the Word preached by a loving pastor, than sit in a cathedral with one who lacks love and compassion. Where did this all go wrong?

I really believe the Lord is grieved. Yes, we should love and respect our pastor as I know the Word says, but you have an obligation to the Lord not to abuse the flock. We are not disposable, we are the Body of Christ. Perhaps you have forgotten this is not your church, it’s God’s and placed in your care. I want it to be known that I love everyone at Calvary but I just can’t stay where I don’t feel the love from you and I refuse to be intimidated and made to feel uneasy when I go to church. If someone asked me why I left, I’ll say I needed a loving and compassionate pastor. You may share this email with anyone you see fit. I have emailed this to Pastor Mike and Pastor Jim so as to keep the record straight. No response is necessary, I have nothing more to say. Except “Love the flock”.


The Jenkins Family

588 thoughts on “Calvary Chapel Visalia Personal Story: Tina’s Story”

  1. Monax,

    Wonderful memory ( :
    Our beach front is all rocks, no sand, so we find a few Petoskey Stones every summer. Dang you must have the wrist action down when skipping stones! 8 skips?! I can manage 3 skips if I am lucky, boys next door have tried to teach me to little avail. Water temps on Charlevoix are lovely in July & August.

    Why you should visit Lake Charlevoix –…/post/…lake-charlevoix/…/1‎


  2. from link: “Lake Charlevoix is where the Gods swim….other lakes may be pretty, but Lake Charlevoix is spiritual in its beauty, clear, clean, deep, and big, situated on hills and a hundred shades of green.”

    sounds most wonderful. . i’d love to get over to Michigan. . but i’m fairly certain—for want of time and money—that it won’t happen this year. . but Lake Charlevoix has now made my must-visit-destination list


  3. JA, How’s your daughter fairing?

    Norris Lee, I called and left a message at the above number this afternoon. I trust you now have my number. Call me whenever and for whatever.



  4. Monax, I would be really surprised if he coctacts you. Its Bob’ s MO to cut people off from others who might influnce clear thinking. Im sure if Bob is reading this blog, he is pouring it on thick right now and keeping a close eye on Norris. Poor Norris, I wish the best for him.


  5. David, they won 2 out of the 3 matches yesterday. They lost the first match today, barely. Bummer. They will play their last game in a few minutes.

    I got a real special treat and met a blog reader who will remain nameless unless he/she wants to disclose. But what a sweet time of sharing. Wow. I am blown away by the people here.


  6. Yes, Julie Anne, your “Jezebelian ways” brought so many beautiful people together and I, myself, can’t wait to meet them all face to face some day.

    Never met you or Brad or Alex etc, etc, in person but all of you have an extra-special place in my heart. I treasure you as some of my most trusted friends.

    Fwiw, in the last year I’ve prayed for you and Brad and Alex more than any other persons on the planet. Invested much of my life around my blogger friends.

    God brought us together. . this side of eternity—a remarkable thing, and thanks to technology too (“And knowledge shall increase.”)

    He is even now working something beautiful out in us. . with and through and for us. . for the advancement of His Kingdom, for the deliverance and education and healing of His People. Even now (beyond the veil of our words) I see the glory of Christ shining through—a glory that will one day be completely revealed and shown.

    So who’d you meet? I’m curious. .


  7. hey, TJ, just got off the phone with our beautiful brother. .

    Gail, I may want to come back to you later with an explanation of that “Wonderful memory” . .wasn’t my memory I was going off of—but my dad’s. . there’s something more to this incident. . something more

    but off to bed now so i can be up bright and early for the second stage of the Tour de France. .


  8. David – I’ve cried a few times tonight and here go the waterworks again. I have so appreciated your friendship and prayers. I know the prayers sustained me when I have been so sleep-deprived last year. Thank you, brother. And I appreciate your continued prayers because I’m continuously dealing with people privately who are hurting so badly. Who would have thought my lawsuit experience would have done this? wow.



  9. “Yes, Julie Anne, your “Jezebelian ways” brought so many beautiful people together and I, myself, can’t wait to meet them all face to face some day.”

    Truly Monax, there are some remarkable people who gather here, I know I am new on the block, however I appreciate the kindness, wit, wisdom, & warmth that flows from most who comment here. I am with you on wanting to meet them face to face someday. My house is going to be full with family & friends tomorrow, but before Iay me down to sleep I will be reading and praying for all the lovely, kind, gracious people who share here.

    David, I am all ears if you decide to come back with an explanation…

    I find our stories so much more intriguing than our doctrines, you have peaked my curiosity that it wasn’t your memory & that there is something more…


  10. Hello and God bless Amos, I will keep it short. I am a grace teacher, i teach the covenant of grace established by our Lord Jesus Christ. Heb 1:1-3, Yet i also teach the whole counsel of God Acts 20:27, Yet in all this i remain teachable in the right Spirit comes along. I will listen, yet i reserved the right to rebuttal. So may God richly bless you and yours.


  11. Norris

    You write recently @ JUNE 30, 2013 @ 3:43 AM…
    “Yet i also teach the whole counsel of God Acts 20:27,”

    Was wondering…

    How did you come to know? – “The Whole Counsel of God?”


  12. Norris

    Was wondering…

    If you teach – “The Whole Counsel of God?”

    When you teach about “The Lost?” – Who are you referring to? – Who are “The Lost?”


  13. Update on my daughter’s volleyball. Today we had a very nice lunch with her potential coach. She will watch my daughter play this next game at 3pm and said we will meet on Monday with an offer. I told my daughter to play her ____ off. :). Lets hope her coach gives her decent playing time.


  14. Hello and God bless Amos, you ask who are the lost? Bible declares all have sinned and falling short of the Glory of God, so that would include you and me. We are the lost. So thow your curve ball, i’m a specialty hitter. LOL


  15. Norris

    I like your answer to – “Who are The Lost?”

    IMO – You correctly say…
    “We are the lost.”

    But – for the wrong reason…

    You say -“We are the lost.” – because we sin…
    “Bible declares all have sinned and falling short of the Glory of God,
    so that would include you and me. We are the lost.”

    Now – How do we, believers, forgiven, who belong to God, become “The Lost?”

    Hasn’t Jesus – “washed us from our sins in his own blood?” Rev 1:5.
    Hasn’t – “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin?” 1 John 1:7

    Now we, His Church, His Body, belong to God, Purchased with His Blood.

    And God has said – “their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” Heb 10:17
    “I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jer 31:34.

    If “WE” belong to God? – And God NO longer remembers our sin? – Why do You?

    So – How do “WE”, believers, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Body…
    Cleansed from ALL sin by His Blood, Purchased with His Blood, and belong to God…

    How did “WE” become “The Lost?”


  16. Julie Anne

    How cool is that – The Nationals – And an interested coach…



  17. .
    And Norris

    Seems you forgot to answer this question @ JUNE 30, 2013 @ 6:58 AM…


    You write recently @ JUNE 30, 2013 @ 3:43 AM…
    “Yet i also teach the whole counsel of God Acts 20:27,”

    Was wondering…

    How did you come to know? – “The Whole Counsel of God?”


  18. Was wondering…

    How did you come to know? – “The Whole Counsel of God?”

    “God and him went on double dates all the time.”
    — Woody Allen, Sleeper


  19. Oh No. . looks like HUG found us. .

    Gail, I just sent you a friends request on fb. .

    Ok. . . i’ve been sitting on this for a few days.

    the explanation is short, but tell me what you think.

    again, this “Wonderful memory” is not mine. . it was a memory my father shared with me over half my life ago.

    Ok. . . [i’m taking a deep breath here] . . tell me what you make of this:

    after High School in the late 80’s I moved back to Michigan for a short time. One afternoon I came into where my father had been taking an afternoon nap; he was awake and might have been reading. Whatever the case my father and I entered into conversation.

    I don’t remember what we were talking about. But at some point something happened and my dad began abreacting something awful. He was lying down at the time and began to curl up clutching at his stomach in evident agony. All over his face I could see pain. I heard it in his moans—it was deep . . . and this went on for awhile. I wasn’t sure what was happening. I didn’t know what to do. Was he having an heart attack? In between grimaced sobs he assured me he wasn’t having any medical situation serious enough for me to call 911. I watched him then writhe and cry.

    “You Ok, Dad?” I asked. “You alright?”

    He began sobbing violently—uttering to me “I’m sorry. . I’m so sorry. . . I’m so sorry. . .”

    “It’s Ok, Dad. I forgive you,” I said. “I forgive you.”

    After he recovered a bit I asked him what he was sorry about.

    He became incoherent. Might have abreacted a bit more with pain.

    At some point he was able to pull himself together. I asked him again, “What’s this about? Why are you sorry?” And that is when he related to me this story—this memory of when his mother [we called her “Mom Mom”] was visiting and they decided to show my grandparents Lake Michigan. So we went to a private beach front property. And it was a warm spring day.

    You see as he’s telling me this I’m hunting around in my mind for a memory of this. He’s highly detail-oriented at times with his descriptions—sometimes he does this to mask things, to throw up a barrier. He described the empty house that was for sale where they entered the beach from. So I have a photograph in my mind now of this place in shades of green shadow and yellow light all over the trees and lawn. There are no people in this image. Don’t know if I merely concocted it or if I anchored this slice of memory to the story being told me.

    So this flash of shadow and light amidst the trees above the shore of Lake Michigan is the only personal image-memory I have of this.

    When we get down to the beach Mom Mom suggested I go jump in the lake. (( Come to think of it that was a favorite expression of his—go jump in the lake. ))

    Well, keep in mind I’m a walking baby—I’m new. And I loved the water. And it was a warm day. So at this suggestion I wanted to tear of my clothes and run into Michi Gami.

    “No,” someone said, “The waters way too cold for that.”

    But my father let me. And he’s bawling while he’s telling me this. He’s so sorry that he let me go into the freezing water.

    I didn’t get it. Really? Why on earth was he so writhing in pain over letting me go jump in the lake.

    I don’t necessarily see this as an abusive thing. Who knows, if I had a boy and he begged to go jump in Lake Michigan that time of year—I’d probably say “Go—but it’s cold. I don’t recommend it.” Right? I’d want him to have at least a dry towel first though.

    So I tell you all this much to say: there’s certainly something more to this story.

    He told me this when I was 18. His mother was not dead at that time. She’s dead now. Not sure she’s w/ the Lord although she taught Sunday School and was a staunch fundamentalist. Bottom line she was a wicked woman, and I’m sure she was responsible for much of my dad’s sickness. Thank goodness we rarely saw her.

    Four years later when I remembered fragments of the abuse I suffered at the hands of my father I then confronted him. He was already forgiven as far as I was concerned. But he denied doing such a monstrous thing.


  20. thanks for the email, Gail

    ja, i trust you’re well. . i was rereading just above and am now remembering what those vicious wolves did to you. . how they stole so much from you—including your sleep. . i wonder about the judgment of God when it comes down to their abuses. .

    i hope you’ve been able to sleep well where you’re at (despite being woken up in the middle of the night by fire alarm). i hate sleeping at hotels. unless they’re nice ones—which i’m too cheap to spring for. nah, i love my own bed, pillow, fan and controlled environment. ever get a room by an elevator? or a room above a rock concert?

    how was your daughter’s meeting w/ the coach? i bet she’s having the time of her life.

    HUGs and blessings to everyone here. . you are some sincerely beautiful people. . except for Alex—he’s as ugly as a bulldog. . (( just kidding ppl. . i said that to see if he’s reading us. . he commented five hundred some posts ago. . perhaps he scans our comments via email. . who knows ))


  21. You’re funny, David. Sleep is still difficult for me. I’ve never had a room above a rock concert, thankfully. Our room has been very nice except for the fire alarm incident.

    We had a great meeting with the coach. She got a sizable scholarship, both academic and athletic which will cover a good bit of expenses. She’s thrilled. I was thrilled, too, until the coach mentioned the date she needs to show up: August 4th. After attending a few weeks of camp, she’ll only have one more week left at home before heading off to college. That’s crazy.


  22. sizable scholarship! very nice. . i bet that put a smile on Mr and Mrs Smith’s face. . congratulations to your daughter, to you and Steve too. . what a blessing


  23. Good Morning Amos,

    I see that Born4Battle is demanding just a yes or no answer from you. At least he admits, however tacitly, that his views can prevail only when he is allowed to set the rules of engagement. Well, I am willing to engage you (Amos) in full and open discussion. I am even willing to put myself at something of an handicap by submitting to B4B’s rules of engagement. I will also agree to do my best to limit myself to B4B’s exegetical principles.

    We know from his defense of corporal punishment that B4B insists that single passages of Scripture must be accepted as establishing generally applicable principles. Therefore, I must identify the particular passage that will enable me to answer, yes or no, whether God has given and equipped teachers as gifts to the church. Being careful to use a translation/interpretation we know is used by B4B, the obvious passage, Jesus speaking, is:

    But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one TEACHER, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ (Matthew 23:8-10, ESV).

    Well then, Has God given and equipped ‘teachers’ as gifts to the church? Using B4B’s own exegetical principles, and conforming myself to his rules of engagement, the answer is (get ready):


    If you (Amos) would like to contest my conclusion, I invite you to do so. Feel free to answer fully, openly and honestly, being under no constraint to abide by any rules designed to manipulate a particular answer. I think I can deal with it if your views are different than mine (although I may exhibit the audacity to attempt to engage you in further discussion).


  24. Hi Lovingkindness

    You ask…
    “Has God given and equipped ‘teachers’ as gifts to the church?
    Just a yes/no question.”

    That might be “a yes/no question” – for you…
    But – for a yes/no answer – from me – I need some additional info.

    First – Which Church are we talking about?

    1 – “The Church of God?”
    Where Jesus, He is the head of the body, (The ekklesia, the called out ones),
    The Church? 🙂

    2 – the church of man?
    Where a “Mere Fallible Human” goes to a secular governmental organization, IRS,
    and asks permission to be called a “church” by filling out a form called a 501 (c) 3.

    If and when approved, they become a Gov’t approved, Gov’t inspected….
    501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation. The IRS calls church.



  25. God morning to you – Gary W

    Your comment was not there for some reason, when I left my comment at 8:03

    Seems your comment just showed up on my screen.

    When I was about to post this next comment…

    Seems we’re on the same page… 😉 😉 😉


  26. And Lovingkindness

    Second – When you refer to ‘teachers as gifts to the church”
    Are you refering to His Disciples – as gifts to the church?

    Because Jesus taught “His Disciples” to teach
    And He taught them to teach – “What” He taught them.

    Mat 28:19-20 NKJV
    Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations…
    **teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you**

    And – Jesus taught “His Disciples” NOT to be called – Teacher. – Go figure… 😉

    1 – NOT to be called rabbi/teacher for you have “ONE” teacher, Christ. Mt 23:8 NASB
    2 – NOT to be called leader for you have “ONE” leader, Christ, Mt 23:10 NASB
    3 – ALL shall be taught of God. Jn 6:45
    4 – ALL things, shall be taught you by the Holy Spirit, God. Jn 14:26
    5 – ALL truth, will come as the Spirit of truth guides and leads. Jn 16:13
    6 – Jesus, as man, does nothing of himself, and is taught of God. Jn 8:28
    7 – Peter, knowing Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God,
    received the revelation from Father God, and NOT from man. Mt 16:17
    NOT even from Jesus, as a man. Jesus gave “All” the glory, all the credit to God.

    John the apostle, a “Disciple of Christ” taught what Jesus taught.

    1 – ALL know, discern, all things. From the anointing in you. 1 Jn 2:20
    2 – You need not any man teach you. Some will seduce you. 1 Jn 2:26:27
    3 – ALL things, are taught to you by the anointing. 1 Jn 2:27

    Paul the apostle, a “Disciple of Christ” taught what Jesus taught.

    1- The gospel, NOT taught to me by man, but by revelation. Ga 1:11,12
    2 – I conferred NOT with flesh and blood. Ga 1:16
    3 – You have heard Jesus, and have been taught by Jesus. Eph 4:21
    4 – You are taught by God to love one another. 1 Thes 4:9
    5 – When together, all can teach, all can get revelation. 1 Cor 14:26
    6 – Be led by the Spirit of God, and be a son of God. Rm 8:14

    So – If someone tells you they are a “teacher”

    Are they one of His Disciples? 😉


  27. A. Amos

    It’s a yes/no question. BTW I’n not demanding anything from anyone. You can keep your answer to yourself, but It should be easy for the Biblically literate.


  28. Lovingkindness

    You write…
    “but It should be easy for the Biblically literate.”

    Or – Easy for those in bondage to the traditions of “The Corrupt Religious System.”
    Traditions that jesus warned us about that “Make Void” the Word of God.

    Mark 7:13
    NLT – And so you “cancel” the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
    KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
    ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
    NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…

    When you believe the lie you start to die…


    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.


  29. Lovingkindness

    Would you please answer this question?

    “Which Church are we talking about?”

    1 – The Church of God? Where Jesus is the head of the Body?

    2 – the church of man? Where “Mere Fallible Humans” Take the name of God in Vain?


  30. Lovingkindness

    Here’s a yes or no question for you. 😉

    If someone tells you they are a “teacher”

    After knowing that Jesus taught His Disciples – NOT to be called teacher?

    Are they one of His Disciples?


  31. Oh – And Lovingkindness

    The reason I ask – Which Church are we talking about? – is…
    When I was a part of “The Corrupt Religious System” of today – The…
    501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation. The IRS calls church.

    My – pastor/elder/overseers – told me, over and over again…

    That a good christian would always

    Join a church
    Go to a church – Every Sun – And Wed nights – And prayer meetings – And…
    Tithe to a church
    Give money to a church
    Volunteer, give time to a church
    Submit to the leaders of a church
    Apply for membership in a church

    After I left “The Corrupt Religious System” I had a rude awakening…
    I read, and re-read, every verse with the word “church” in it for myself…

    Lovingkindness – Don’t know if you ever checked or not – But…
    In the Bible, I found…

    NO one ever *Led* “A Church.”
    NO one ever *Joined* “A Church.”
    NO one ever *Went to* “A Church.”
    NO one ever *Tithed* to “A Church.”
    NO one ever “Taught” Go To “A Church.”
    NO one ever brought their friends to “A Church.”
    NO one ever applied for membership in “A Church.”
    NO one ever gave silver, gold, or money, to “A Church.”
    NO buildings with steeples and crosses called “A Church.”
    NO – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews – in “A Church. 😉

    Seems – that’s what happens, and is taught, in the church of man. Yes? – The…
    501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation. The IRS calls church.

    In the Bible… Believers become “the Church of God.” – His Ekklesia – His Body. 🙂
    Believers become – Kings and Priests unto God – The Bride of Christ – Sons of God – Servants of Christ – Disciples of Christ – Ambassordors of Christ.

    So, turns out, these – pastor/leader/reverends – A “Title/Position” NOT in the Bible.
    Who told me they were “Pastor/Teachers.” Told me they had the “Gift of Teaching.”
    Told me, they as “Teachers,”were “This Gift from God” to the church, me, His body…

    Turns out – They were teaching – Doctrines of Men – Commandments of Men…
    That became our “Traditions” that Makes Void the Word of God. Mark 7:13.
    That Jesus warned us about.

    Turns out – they taught lot’s of stuff NOT in the Bible…
    Turns out – they taught by example – You can have a “Title/Position” NOT in the Bibe.
    Turns out – they “Ignored’ and “Twisted” the qualifications for elder/overseer…
    Turns out – they never were “This Gift from God”- never had this “Gift of Teaching.”

    I mean – How many errors are allowed – If you say you are “This Gift from God?”

    If they can NOT get it right about the word “church” – Well – False Teacher anyone?

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}


  32. Was wondering…

    If you teach – “The Whole Counsel of God?”

    When you teach about “The Lost?” – Who are you referring to? – Who are “The Lost?”

    Yes Amos, you mention nothing about believer in your question. However you come back later and ask me according to believer’s how can we be lost.

    This is what frustrate me when dealing with you. When you ask me a question, give me the whole question. That I might give the right response. I’m not trying to show you up, I’m trying to be ministered too and to minister. I hate playing games.

    May God richly bless you and yours.

    Bro. Lee in Christ


  33. Norris

    You write…
    “When you ask me a question, give me the whole question.”

    I did give you the whole question – What I did NOT give you is the answer. 😉
    Most folks I ask that question answer – “The Lost” are the unsaved, non-believers.
    That’s what my “Church Leaders” and my “Pastors/Teachers” taught me. 😦
    BUT, Then I read the Bible for myself. And looked at every verse with “Lost” in it. 🙂

    This is another reason I NO longer trust those who call themselves pastor/leader.
    And, you Norris, have NOT been a help in my recovery, calling yourself pastor.

    But, you Norris, to my surprise gave an answer I agree with. A notable miracle. 😉
    And I congratulated you for giving the right answer. “We are the lost.”

    And then I said – “But – for the wrong reason…”
    Here – read that again at – A. Amos Love @ JULY 1, 2013 @ 7:38 AM…

    I do NOT believe we are “The Lost” because we are “sinners.” As you stated.

    Can a dead person be “Lost?” Don’t you have to be alive, have life, – To be “Lost?”
    At one time -“WE”, Believers, were dead in sins – BUT – God gave us new life. 🙂

    Eph 2:1
    And you hath “he quickened,”
    who were *dead in trespasses and sins;*

    Eph 2:5
    Even when *we were dead in sins,*
    “hath quickened us” together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Col 2:13
    And you, being *dead in your sins* and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
    hath “he quickened” together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    So – I figure – I once was dead – But now I have new life… Thank you Jesus…
    And, Dead men are dead – NOT lost. – BUT believers have life and can be “Lost.”

    So – I ask you Norris – “How did “WE,” Believers, His Church, become – The Lost?”

    Hint – Hint – This is an open book exam… 😉

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.


  34. Hello Amos and good morning, I have reviewed your question. I find that your off centered jut a bit. I looked up the word lost in the VINES, ALSO THE STRONG, you have misapplied the usage of that word. It simply means to destroy fully, to perish or to lose. It never refers to the believer at all I examined alll the new testament scripture to see how you applied it and it just isn’t there. The lost always refer to those who don’t know Christ. Also it’s impossible for you to be lost as a believer, when your trusting in Christ to bring you home. Salvation belongs to God, not man, (Ps 3:8) It is kept up in heaven for you where no one can take it away, because it is kept by the power of God (1Pe 1:5) When He (Jesus) starts the work He (Jesus) will bring it to completion. (Philipians 1:6) Yes, I could go on but i will pass to see what’s your take on this.

    Always in Christ Bro.Lee


  35. Norris

    I certainly agree when you write about me…
    “I find that your off centered jut a bit.” : role :

    Then you write today – after checking – BUT – Only checking the NT.
    1 – “The lost **always** refer to those who don’t know Christ.”

    But – didn’t you say? @ JUNE 30, 2013 @ 4:27 PM…
    2 – “all have sinned…” “We are the Lost.”

    And – didn’t you say? @ JUNE 30, 2013 @ 3:43 AM…
    “Yet i also teach the whole counsel of God Acts 20:27,”

    Well, if you teach “The Whole Council of God?

    Which one is your final answer?
    1 – “The lost **always** refer to those who don’t know Christ.”
    2 – “all have sinned…” “We are the Lost.”


  36. Norris

    Would you like another hint? Some more clues to “Who are The Lost?”
    So you can learn – “Who are The Lost?

    So far you’ve given two answers – Two different answers.
    1 – “The lost **always** refer to those who don’t know Christ.”
    2 – “all have sinned…” “We are the Lost.”

    I ask because you have said that you have a “Teachable Spirit.” “willing to listen.”
    Along with teaching “the Whole Council of God.”

    Norris, you said on APRIL 10, 2013 @ 8:42 AM…
    “… If what you say is true then I do have a teachable spirit. I’m also willing to listen.”

    And again on APRIL 10, 2013 @ 12:56 PM…
    “…As I have said before I have a teachable spirit and I’m willing to learn…”

    And again on JUNE 30, 2013 @ 3:43 AM…
    “Yet i also teach the whole counsel of God Acts 20:27, Yet in all this i remain teachable”

    Now, I could be wrong in your case – Time will tell…

    But from my experience with those who think they are “Special” – pastor/teachers.
    They often say one thing – The proper Christian Religious thingy – and Do another.

    Jesus warned us about “Religious Leaders.” “…for they say, and do not.” Mat 23:3.

    Today – My *rule of thumb* is – My first reaction is…
    If someone has to tell me, They are a “Teacher of Grace.” – They Ain’t.
    If someone has to tell me, They have a “Teachable Spirit” – They Don’t.

    If I’m spiritual at all – I should be able to discern – If they *Teach Grace.*
    If I’m spiritual at all – I should be able to discern – If they have a *Teachable Spirit.*

    If I’m NOT spiritual, NOT born again, Telling me means nothing at all.
    Don’t know what Grace is. Don’t know what a “Teachable Spirit” is. Why tell me?

    Unless, of course, you are trying to promote yourself as someone “Special.”

    When you believe the lie you start to die…


  37. Monax July 1, 2013 @ 6:09 PM
    Ok. . . i’ve been sitting on this for a few days.
    the explanation is short, but tell me what you think.

    Monax, First, please accept my apologies for being slow to respond, you have been on my mind…

    It doesn’t make sense to me that your dad reacted like this over letting you run into freezing water.

    “curled up clutching at his stomach in evident agony, his moans—it was deep, writhe and cry, sobbing violently became incoherent.”

    I agree with you, there certainly is more to this story. I suspect that your dad wanted to ease his guilt & shame by confessing to a smaller sin against you…

    I am not saying he did that consciously, but something more had to be driving his dramatic out burst.

    But, that is only a guess, I do not know that for sure, just my gut reaction.

    Do you know if your dad was sexually abused? Sounds like spiritual abuse was a given…

    My dad was a nightmare and I still carry the scars inside today of being verbally, physically & sexually abused by him.

    I was in constant agony for years. As I began to unpack my story, after several years in therapy, I became curious about my dad’s story.

    I wondered why he was the way he was.

    My dad’s sister gave me some history. My dad’s Mom was evil. He was her punching bag since he was a baby, my aunt recalled when he was in high chair and spilled his food,

    Grandma went into a rage and slapped him across the face, she was wearing a ring, and it cut him, blood speckled her fine wallpaper, from there it only gets uglier. He suffered horrifically.

    Not that his abuse towards me was OK because of what he endured, no,no, no, but understanding him opened a door in my heart and as I grew stronger I was able to love him boldly by asking him questions, listening, praying with him.

    A wise counselor directed me to be curious, ask questions, be direct on how his abuse impacted me, and when I did this he broke like a baby, however, he never owned up to the abuse.

    His tears which I had never seen, spoke volumes.
    I was at a point where I realized how much I had been forgiven for… though I had prayed for years and told our Lord that I forgave him as an act of my will. My heart changed after we talked. No, it wasn’t a Hallmark movie, even after my carefrontation, we had a strained relationship, yet he made it a point every time I saw him to tell me he loved me, which I didn’t hear growing up.
    Is your dad still alive? Do you talk?


  38. Yes, Gail, my dad’s still alive and still lives in Michigan. I talk to him often and we have a fairly good relationship. As Christ has forgiven me, so have I forgiven him. He’s free at my end—and has been free from the day I realized his wicked sins against me. But I’m not so sure how free he really truly is in his own heart. He can be miserable. I have a 72 hour threshold limit if I spend time with him, then I have to exit. And, yes, my father was sexually abused as a child.

    Thanks for your take on my story. “Carefrontation,” huh? Interesting how your dad’s mom, just like my dad’s mom, was evil. What a world we live in!

    So from the pics i saw on fb looks like you had a happy week with family and friends on the Lake.

    Blessings. .


  39. hey Tina. . i studied Tang Soo Do for a time when I was young. . in fights (not that i got into many of them; hardly any at all, really, but) in fights my feet were always one of my best assets. . for their reach. . saw your pics on fb


  40. Monax: “Carefrontation,” huh?
    I cared enough for my dad’s soul and mine to confront him… I had to handle him with kid gloves, so I say I care-fronted him, using strength that was tempered by sorrow & tenderness as the Holy Spirit graced me with the ability to speak the truth to him.


  41. Monax,lol thats great you studied martial arts. I love it! Bet you couldn’t tell by some of my comments that I had a fiesty side 🙂 I study Shotokan Kenkojuku.


  42. Gesundheit, girl! You study Whuut?

    In my youth I self studied mostly, and mastered about eight signature moves that were enough to keep me. . In high school I was known to be a kid not to be messed with, but my reputation was far greater than my ability. . i think my greatest asset was my mind. . when engaged if you can get inside someone’s head you’ve nearly got `em. .

    After high school I signed up for a class of Tang Soo Do. . but it was hard for me to keep up with the rigors of the discipline, so after a short time I dropped out. . Master was not pleased with my missed classes and how far I had gotten behind, so one day he took this six-year-old boy aside to teach me the proper moves. . i learned a lot from this little kid, and from the Master. . most especially what I had been doing wrong, and how I was opening myself up for injury and such if ever were to encounter a real fighter. .

    After this and on my own i mastered a couple nice moves the Master had taught me. . those were fun days. . i used to spar with my young cousins who were advanced in their Tae Kwon Do. . i could take them on until they turned 17. . thereafter i’d get my butt whoooped!

    Tina, i’m assuming i wouldn’t have a chance against you. Unless that Shotokan Kenkojuku is a cooking school. Not a cooking class you’re taking, is it?


  43. Lol, its a form of karate. But as you know if you master a few good moves, you should be able to survive. Stong legs, a good opposite punch and being able to deflect or avoid their attack. I am always learning and training, and I feel like I have so much more to learn. True about getting in someones head, and don’t let them know if they hurt you. Show no emotion. THATS HARD FOR ME! LOL


  44. My husband probably wishes it were a cooking class. 🙂 My cooking stinks! I hate cooking. I like working in the garden and mowing the lawn, he is actually a better cook than I am. I’m a lucky woman 🙂


  45. Yeah, that’s my area of endeavor—cooking!

    i love to cook and feed people. . love to experiment with things and invent new dishes. . speaking of which, i believe it’s feeding time for me. .

    What’s your garden—Veggies and/or Otherwise?


  46. I tried my hand at veggies but my property doesnt’t get enough sun. So for now I’m sticking to flowers. 🙂 I might try growing tomatoes in large pots next year and place them on the cement. Nothing like fresh tomatoes! What do you grow?


  47. i don’t grow. . but if given the option between sun or shade. . i’d opt for less sun and more shade and go about creating my own little secret garden. . tried tomatoes a few years back, but realized it’s more cost-effective to go to ALDI’s for them. . i did, though, learn what the Best Tasting Tomatoes are. . they’re always the Ones you grow yourself. . right?


  48. Hello and good morning Mr. Amos, My bad I have been very busy, I have not chose to neglect you at all. Do I hear a tone of mistrust coming from you. I have shown that I will listen and respond when ask with courtesy and tact. I have said some wrong things on this site in which I had to apologize for, However to keep hearing you assault my character based on your past is unacceptable to me. I will converse with you and try to be prompt. However keep your sarcasm to yourself or say you no longer wish to dialogue with me any longer, I will understand. I hear everybody speak of love, yet you show contempt. I will pray that God give you peace in the area you have been hurt the most. I’m not at all out to hurt you I just want to converse in a civilized manner. Be taught or to teach. If you choose to say anything that’s off the wall I can except that as long as it’s genuine and the truth, but to assault my character based on others is not worthy of my time.

    May God richly bless you and yours


  49. Norris

    Nice to hear from you. 🙂

    You write…
    “Do I hear a tone of mistrust coming from you.”


    And it’s NOT just based on my past. I’ve trusted paster/teachers and been burned.
    It is also based on my experience with you on this site.

    And it is based on the Bible. – Warnings in the Bible to beware…

    Colossians 2:8
    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
    after “the tradition of men,” after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words…
    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means…
    1 John 3:7 Little children, Let no man deceive you …

    You call yourself pastor – But NOT one of His Disciples calls themself shepherd…
    You call yourself teacher – But Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called teacher…

    If someone calls themself “Teacher?” – Are they one of His Disciples?
    Do you want to be known as “Teacher?” – Or, one of His Disciples?

    And – You tell me – You teach “The Whole Council of God.”

    Forgive me – But – I do NOT believe that – I do NOT trust you when you say that. Because you miss Jesus teaching His Disciples – There is “ONE” Shepherd. – There is “ONE” leader. – There is “ONE” teacher…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Jesus warned us – “He who speaks of himself seeks his own glory…” John 7:18

    The Bible warns about 1-False apostles. 2- Many false prophets. 3- False teachers 4- False brethren. 5- False Christ’s (false anointed ones).6- Deceitful workers. 7- Evil workers. 8- Dogs. 9-Swine.

    Wow – Lots of Dangers – Lots of bumps and potholds on this road to “Truth” – Jesus…

    And – “Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man… Jer 17:5

    Psalm 118:8-9
    It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
    It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

    Sorry Norris – Jesus asks me to trust in Him – And NOT trust “Mere Fallible Humans.”


  50. Norris

    Would you like another hint? Some more clues to “Who are The Lost?”
    So you can learn – “Who are The Lost?

    So far you’ve given two answers – Two different answers.
    1 – “The lost **always** refer to those who don’t know Christ.”
    2 – “all have sinned…” “We are the Lost.”

    Hint – What you said here @ JULY 6, 2013 @ 5:35 AM…
    Can be looked at again – Me- thinks you missed something. You write…
    “I looked up the word lost in the VINES, ALSO THE STRONG, you have misapplied the usage of that word. It simply means **to destroy fully, to perish or to lose.**

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.


  51. Hello Amos, I’m so happy to hear the real you, I have not come to change you, only

    to dialect with you. However that being said I believe it’s time to cut ties with you while everything is still alright between the two. I don’t think your going to see things
    the way God has shown them to me, vice versa. So let’s be cordial about it and move on. I respect you as person and wish nothing but the best for you and your, May God richly bless you.


  52. Norris

    I’ll leave you with this – Just to complete this question…
    Who are “the Lost?” – In the Bible?

    You are correct when you say, the Greek word for “Lost” in the NT means…
    **to destroy fully, to perish or to lose.**

    Let’s look at the last one – “To Lose.”

    When you “lose” something – don’t you already have that thing.
    One Dictionary definition of “lose” is…
    1. To be unsuccessful in retaining possession of;
    And – When you “lose” your keys – Don’t you tell someone – You “Lost” your keys?

    How about – When you “lose” your way?
    You get directions to your friends house, your mind gets distracted…
    And – You “lose” your way. Yes?
    Don’t you tell your friend – Who’s house you were going to…
    Hey, I messed up on the directions you gave me – And now I’m “Lost.”
    Can you help me get back to the correct way to your house?

    Another Dictionary definition of “lose” is…
    2 – to wander or go astray from – To “lose” your way.
    So, when you “lose” you’re way? – You’re now “Lost” – Yes?)

    So, seems to “Lose” – and be “Lost.” Are very closely related – Yes?

    Next – I’ll give you what I found in the Bible…


  53. Norris

    In “The Abusive Religious System” I was raised in, they taught it was
    the unbeliever, those who do NOT know Jesus, are the “lost.”

    I found some scriptures that seem to indicate it’s God’s people who are “lost.”

    But First – There are scriptures that say, before we come to Christ we are dead?

    And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins…
    Eph 2:1

    Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
    Eph 2:5

    And you, being dead in your sins… hath he quickened together with him…
    Col 2:13

    Don’t you have to have life, be alive, in order to be “lost?”
    In order to “Lose” life? In order to “Lose” your way? And be “Lost” on the Way?

    1 – In Luke 15, there are two parables, that seems to be about “Lost” believers.

    1a – A man had a hundred sheep – and if he “Lose” one – sheep…
    He leaves the ninety and nine and goes after – that which was “Lost.” Luke 15:4.

    “Lose” and “Lost” here is the same Greek word. – Strongs #622 apollumi.
    And it’s NOT refering to anything being “destroyed, or perishing.”

    And, sheep in the scriptures often refers to believers, His Body, His Church. – Yes?
    The shepherd says – “Rejoice with me; for I have found **my sheep** which was “lost.”

    1b – Then there is the prodigal son. He was both dead and “lost.”
    And, he was already a son. – Yes?

    Luke 15:24
    For this “my son” was dead, and is alive again;
    he was “lost,” and is found. And they began to be merry.

    2 – The Psalmist, a lover of God, saw himself as a “lost” sheep.

    I have gone astray like a “lost” sheep…
    Psalm 119:176

    3 – Even though the shepherds, in Ezek 34:1-16, caused “God’s Flock”
    to be driven away and “lost” God Himself would be their shepherd.

    I will feed **my flock,** and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
    I will seek that which was “lost,” (My flock?)
    and bring again that which was driven away.
    and will bind up that which was broken,
    and will strengthen that which was sick:
    Eze 34:15:16

    4 – Jeremiah seems to indicate it was God’s people who were “lost,”
    “lost sheep,” led astray by **their shepherds.** Seems similar to Ezek 34:1-16. Yes?

    My people hath been “lost” sheep:
    **their shepherds** have caused them to go astray…
    Jer 50:6

    I’ve been down a few paths that I thought was the “Truth.” How about you?
    And – I’ve certainly been “Led” astray by those who taught me they were shepherds.

    Norris – Could it be that “WE,” His called out ones, His Church, His Body…

    His Sheep – Are “The Lost?” In the Bible?

    “Led” astray by todays shepherds/leader/reverends?

    Who take “the Name of the Lord thy God – Shepherd/Leader/Reverend – In Vain?”

    And “WE” looked to a “Mere Fallible Humans” to be our shephered…

    When Jesus says – He is the “ONE” Shepherd?


  54. Great insight Amos, however you miss one key point in your understanding. The lost comes from adam when he sinned in the garden, then mankind became lost. He died separated from God, until God’s plan of redemption took place through Jesus Christ His Son. So when 1 point is off the whole view can be tainted. Adam lost his way and God brought him back by way of Jesus. Hallelujah for that. Like i said we will not agree, so lets agree to disagree and keep it in love, Always yours in Christ Bro. Lee


  55. Norris

    You write…
    “Great insight Amos, however you miss one key point in your understanding. The lost comes from adam when he sinned in the garden, then mankind became lost.”

    Norris – Do you really think that is accurate? In the Bible?
    Did you, Norris, miss more than one key point in Gen? 😉

    Where did God say – In the Bible – “The lost comes from adam when he sinned?”
    “Mankind became lost?” “Adam lost his way?”

    Did You add that to the Bible? 😉

    God told Adam, in Gen 2:17…
    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt NOT eat of it:
    in the day that thou eatest thereof **thou shalt surely die.**

    And “death reigned” over all mankind…

    Rom 5:14
    Nevertheless **death reigned** from Adam to Moses,
    even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression,
    who is the figure of him that was to come.

    Rom 5:17
    For if by one man’s offence **death reigned** by one;
    much more they which receive abundance of grace
    and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

    Before we know Jesus, Believe in Him, “WE” are “Dead.”

    Eph 2:1
    And you hath he quickened, who were “dead” in trespasses and sins…

    And “death reigned” over all mankind – Until Jesus gives His Sheep, Eternal Life.

    1 John 5:11-13
    And this is the record, that God hath *given us eternal life,* and this life is in his Son.
    He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God;
    that ye may know that ye have eternal life,
    and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    So, now “WE,” His ekklesia, His Body, His called out ones, His Church – have “Life.”

    And “WE,” His people, become “Lost Sheep” because of “Human shepherds.”

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    *their shepherds* have caused them to *go astray,*

    And – Jesus calls Himself the “ONE” Shepherd.
    And – His Sheep – Hear His Voice – and – Follow Jesus.

    So – we agree when you say…
    “So when 1 point is off the whole view can be tainted.”


  56. Amos you make a compelling point, only you don’t get the point. Man became lost in the garden of eden. Yes he did die, however before his death he enjoyed true fellowship with God in the cool of the day. When he chose to disobey God He died and all of mankind with him we were lost or dead in our sin(s). God in Gen 3:15 came with a plan of redemption to restore man unto Himself. He demonstrated that by slaughtering the lamb to clothe adam and eve. The same would happen to the Saviour. So Amos you do make a compelling argument only it’s fruitless according to scripture.

    Always in Christ/


  57. Norris

    You write…
    “Man became lost in the garden of eden.”
    Can you show that from the scriptures? – Where, in the Bible, does it say that?

    You also write…
    Amos you do make a compelling argument only it’s fruitless according to scripture.

    I think I agree – NOT quite sure what you mean “fruitless according to scripture.”

    You said on – JULY 6, 2013 @ 5:35 AM…
    “The lost” – *always* refer to those who don’t know Christ.”

    And – In the Bible, There are scriptures saying – It’s God’s people who are “Lost.”

    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **their shepherds** have caused them to go astray…
    Jer 50:6

    I think I agree with you – When you say…
    Amos you do make a compelling argument only it’s fruitless according to scripture.

    Are you saying…
    These verses, saying God’s Sheep are lost, “Led” astray by their shepherds…
    Are fruitless – bearing NO fruit…
    *In the shepherds?* – That are leading them astray?

    Are you saying…
    God has turned pastor/teachers over to a “Reprobate Mind?” And NO matter how well scripture makes a “compelling argument?” – “My people have been “Lost Sheep.” – They – Todays pastor/teacher/reverend – “resist the truth?” And – God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

    2 Tim 3:8
    Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses,
    so do these also “resist the truth:”** men of corrupt minds,**
    *reprobate* concerning the faith.

    Tit 1:16
    They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him,
    being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work *reprobate.*

    So, according to scripture…
    It’s fruitless to inform Todays pastor/teachers with a “compelling argument?”


  58. Norris

    Sorry – But – This is an another excellent example of…
    Why – I NO longer trust those who call themselves pastor/teacher.
    Why – I do NOT trust those who say they – “Teach the whole council of God.”

    Why – “WE,” His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Church, are warned in the Bible.
    It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. Psalm 118:8-9
    Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, Jer 17:5

    They, pastor/teachers, you, have a tendency to “ADD” stuff to the Bible.
    Then – Speak it as truth from the Bible.

    You write..
    “God in Gen 3:15 came with a plan of redemption to restore man unto Himself.
    He demonstrated that by **slaughtering the lamb** to clothe adam and eve.”

    In Gen 3, there is NO **slaughtering the lamb** to cloth Adam and Eve.
    It might have been a lamb – And God might have slaughtered that lamb…

    BUT – That is NOT written – in Gen 3, in the Bible – You ADDED that. 😉

    In the Bible, it just says – “coats of skins” – NO lambs – NO slaughtering.

    Gen 3:21 KJV
    Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins,
    and clothed them.

    We are also warned – Beware – Commandments of Men – Doctrines of men.
    That become our “Traditions” – that “Nullify” the word of God…

    Mark 7:13
    NLT – so you “cancel” the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
    KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
    ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
    NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…


  59. Amos, It doesn’t changed the fact that an animal was killed for the sin of adam and eve. It was a picture of the Christ to come, also in the old testament all were blind and in sin according to scripture. So how could the shepards in the old testament lead anyone. God was showing that he was to be followed even in the old testament. In samuel the people wanted a king like other nations, therefore setting aside God’s Authority for man. This why He said don’t trust in man, Israel was trusting in it’s government and leaders. This is what God was speaking on. (Jo 9:38-41) Amos your not to trust anyone except the Holy Spirit, He will guides us into the truth, however don’t do it on your own that is when we get off course and the bible say and i quote, God will make you believe the deception (2Thesss 2:9-12) So Amos I hear you and that is loud and clear, however search the scripture for they speak of Jesus and His life. Not are mistrusts and doubts. (jo 5:39)

    Always in Christ.


  60. Norris Lee, good to hear from you. I’ve been wanting to get back to you, to thank you for your book. I’ve been reading it here and there. There’s quite a bit of insight in your writings. Thank you!

    Gary W, I’ve been doing my research as time allows. I haven’t forgotten our engagement in the other thread. I know I’m at least several days away from being able to respond. I have a few good irons in the fire this Summer, and thankfully the issues of spiritual authority brought up in our other thread is one of them.

    Gotta run. . work to do before company arrives.

    Peace and Love to y’all.



  61. A few problems exist with the Calvary Chapel movement. There is the Moses Model, which is not a biblical way for a church to operate. The book of Acts suggests a plurality of elders and congregational input was the early way of the church. Another issue is cultural. Calvary Chapel has a culture of authoritarianism due to its polity. In addition, it remains rather fundamentalist, which is to say that its theology is pretty narrow and unreflective, and that it possesses some ideology. When you combine authoritarian, one-person rule with fundamentalism, you get a church that is more concerned with power and ideas than with truth revealed in love. And that, as I see it, is the drawback to this movement.


  62. Welcome, Jon! You are correct. I believe the Moses Model has contributed to the problems some churches have had in heavy-handed authority structure, leading to spiritual abuse.


  63. Thanks, Julie Anne, for your response. Yes, the Moses Model has created a corrupt scenario throughout the movement. I would not have any further involvement with CC until its power-structure is reformed. And for me, that means instituting a plurality of elders and enabling more congregational input and participation in church operations. It also means a move away from simple-minded fundamentalism toward a more theologically-informed and reflective stance toward Scripture. Once church government and theology are in place, I believe the other issues will find easier resolution.


  64. The central problem of leadership anywhere in the world at all times is corruption. People’s power goes unchecked and no one can hold them accountable. It’s a perennial issue.


  65. just a thought …is the issue here a sort of pastor worship and when the blinders fall its so devastating that some lose their faith? and they leave the church and cant seem to recover.


  66. I attended a Calvary Chapel from 2006-2008. It was there that I was saved. As a “baby believer,” I was so vulnerable that I didn’t realize I was being brainswashed and abused. Now, looking back, I have recently become overcome with grief over the way I allowed the pastor (a glorified bully) to influence and brainwash me. I am sick over it. I got online this morning to see if anyone else has had a similar experience and am so glad to have found that I am not the only one. Thank you for speaking out.


  67. I’m very sorry that you had that experience. It grieves me to know that others have had this same experience. On a positive note, count yourself blessed to be able to recognize false prophets. Even if it took you a while. I pray that you don’t have long term effects of the spiritual abuse you might have suffered. I’m grateful to have been delivered from that church. And I’m grateful that I was able to remove my children. Life is a teacher and God delivers. ❤️

    Liked by 1 person

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