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Calvary Chapel is a “franchise” of churches with over 1,500 churches founded by Pastor Chuck Smith. There is no hierarchy structure in place to hold pastors accountable if they behave like bullies or abuse their authority. In light of the upcoming hearing March 4/5, 2013, I want to highlight personal stories.
Please be sure to read these posts for further information on this case. Tina’s story is only one of countless stories. Other stories are of alleged money corruption, alleged physical and sexual abuse.
More articles can be found in these posts:
#WhoWouldJesusSue: Media FAQs and Resources
#WhoWouldJesusSue: Breaking News Advisory – Press Release #1
In August of 2012, I visited Calvary Chapel Abuse blog after noticing hits on my blog from that site (Huge legal victory for Free Speech and Church Abuse bloggers). After reading Alex’s story, I reached out to him, encouraging him as he was hearing rumblings of the possibility that his father might sue him.
Weeks later, Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier’s attorneys issued a press release acknowledging their intentions to file a defamation lawsuit. One person named as defendant on the press release was Tina Jenkins. In September of 2012, Tina contacted me. We exchanged several e-mails and I asked if she could tell me her story for publication on my blog. She agreed and started working on her story.
Eventually, Bob and Gayle Grenier did file a lawsuit against their step-son/son and former church member, Tim Taylor; however, Tina’s name was absent from the lawsuit. Of course that was a huge relief to Tina, but she said I could still tell her story. She was strongly connected to the situation and wanted something to be done about the problems she saw at Calvary Chapel Visalia. I’ve been saving her story all this time. Tina had been sharing bits and pieces of her story on the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog, but here it is in its entirety. It is a bold and brave step to speak out against an abuser. Thank you, Tina. Your voice is one of many who has suffered this kind of treatment from a pastor.
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O Lord, who may abide in Your tent?
Who may dwell on Your holy hill?
2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,
And speaks truth in his heart.
3 He does not slander with his tongue,
Nor does evil to his neighbor,
Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 In whose eyes a reprobate is despised,
But who honors those who fear the Lord;
He swears to his own hurt and does not change;
5 He does not put out his money at interest,
Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things will never be shaken.
Psalm 15
The following is Tina’s story, in her own words, reflecting her thoughts and opinions of her experiences at Calvary Chapel Visalia under Pastor Bob Grenier.
Tina’s Calvary Chapel Visalia Story
September 28, 2012
Written by Tina Jenkins
I started attending Calvary Chapel Visalia in the fall of 1988. What appealed to me at that time was the very relaxed style, the jeans, shorts and flip-flops. I was born Catholic and married a man who was Methodist, so we had to find a church we both agreed upon. I had a wonderful friend who attended CCV at the time and she encouraged me to come check it out.
The first year or so, I volunteered in the Children’s Ministry where I taught third and fourth grade. It was there I met Paul Grenier, he was in my class. Those were good memories for me. Paul was both smart and funny. He always held a special place in my heart along with a handful of other students. I was newly married with no kids of my own, probably about 21 or 22.
As a new Christian, I was eager to serve and learn. The first interesting thing I remember was, the name changed to Immanuel Christian Fellowship. If my memory serves me right, Bob told the congregation it was so he could teach freely. I never questioned it, I trusted Bob. I also noticed during that time, that many really good people left. I was too young to question anything, I loved this new church I found. I trusted Bob and had no idea he had a sinister side to him. Knowing what I do now, I wish I would have left like the rest of them.
Years, had gone by and I had four children and I was busy with them. I only attended church and was not involved. As the kids began to get a little older around 2002, I was approached by a pastor on staff and asked if I would be interested in the Children’s Ministry. That was something I had never considered and didn’t think I could run three services. After some thought, I decided that I would give it a try. I loved it! Working with the children and awesome teachers that we had, blessed me so much!
I served with my whole heart as unto the Lord. I even set my family aside many times to serve, which I shouldn’t have. I did notice from time to time there was an over emphasis on the building, café and church grounds at the expense of the people. The children’s ministry and the youth ministry struggled while the main sanctuary and anything that had to do with the adults was deluxe. It made my heart ache. But I did what I could to make the children’s ministry the best it could be.
During that time Bob hired a good friend of mine who worked hard, from sun up to sun down. I never and I mean never saw him sitting around being lazy. This man was a brand new believer and was eager to serve the Lord. Bob capitalized on that and began to work him relentlessly. It was almost disgusting the way that Bob had this gentleman cater to him, like Bob was the president and he was his slave. But this guy loved Bob and would have done anything for him. Something happened that Bob decided to let him go. Bob said that he wasn’t performing his job. Ok that’s fine, but there are ways to let people go especially in the church. I believe that it should have been handled in a way that didn’t crush his spirit. When he was let go, I was very disturbed by it because I knew he did work hard and I couldn’t understand it.
Something about this whole situation didn’t make sense. When it was announced in a staff meeting, they asked if everyone was OK with that or something to that manner. I remember saying, “No.” As I can recall, I was the only one that had anything to really say. Everyone was just quiet. I looked around and thought what is wrong with you people, you’re all ok with it? (Now I know why they were silent, they knew Bob better than I did apparently.) I left that meeting shaking my head, but I didn’t know that I would be continually harassed by Bob from that point on. He was always asking me how I was doing and not in a concerned way, more like trying to find out what side of the fence I was on. One afternoon while I was working in one of the classrooms, the church secretary came in and said, “Bob wants to talk to you.” I told her that I didn’t want to talk to him. She left and then came back and said, “Right now.” At this point I was crying and I walked out to the hallway and Bob and Greg Dowds quickly rushed me to Bob’s back office behind the church where no one would be. Bob sat me down and began to try to explain why he had fired this guy. I just looked at him, finally he got frustrated and began to proceed to raise his voice at me telling me how lazy and blah, blah, blah my friend was. After he vented his anger out, he then said, “And if you repeat that, then you can leave to!” I was in shock! I looked over at Greg who stared at the floor and didn’t even make eye contact and I just thought this guy isn’t who I thought he was at all.
He can’t kick me out of the church? Can he? This man isn’t a pastor at all, he just basically told me to hit the door if I repeated what HE just vomited all over me. It was at that instance that I knew there was something wrong Bob. He was now trying to bully me into submission. I felt such a demonic feeling that it made me sick to my stomach. I went home that night and I thought how could this be… the church that I loved so much and raised my kids in and now I’m being bullied around by my pastor? I really couldn’t wrap my mind around it. I felt as if my soul was molested. Greg Dowds called me that night to tell me what a wonderful person I was and how much I did for the children’s ministry. I think it was Bob’s way of doing a little damage control. There was never an apology from Bob.
Many might wonder why I stayed after that. It was very complicated in my mind. My children were born and raised in this church and this was our social life. I also loved the people there like family and I didn’t want to “disturb the church.” So I decided to stay which continued the abuse.
Anyway, I stayed and kept my mouth shut so my children would not have to leave the church they loved. Shortly after that meeting with Bob and Greg, I went into pastor Jim’s office and told him that I never wanted to be left alone with Bob again and if he could please be present if Bob ever needed to talk to me. Jim’s words were something like, “Did he say something to you?” I just shook my head no because I didn’t want to disclose what Bob had said and risk being kicked out of the church. I continued to serve as the Children’s Ministry Director but I had a plan to get out of leadership quietly. I was not going to be a part of a corrupt leadership. The weeks following this harassment I just about had a nervous break down. I tried to hide the pain but it was showing and the people who knew me began to ask if I was ok. I just shook my head “no” but I didn’t say a word. There is nothing worse than seeing the man who is bullying you around with intimidating stares, and a threat hanging over your head, then speak about the love of God from the pulpit. It was the most disturbing thing in the world. Being the type of person who wears my emotions on my sleeve, my face showed the grief I was feeling. I was told that I couldn’t go around looking like that and I needed to basically plaster a smile on. This was even more abuse and every time I pulled up at the church I would just start shaking and crying. I finally went in and told Assistant Pastor Jim that I couldn’t work like this anymore. I had to step out of the ministry.
Just about the time I stepped out of ministry, they hired a new pastor for the youth. He was a breath of fresh air and had a genuine love for God and the youth. He asked me if I would help in the youth department and I told him I would assist but I wouldn’t get back into a position where I was being paid. I didn’t want to be a part of leadership there, I saw the arrogance and mean spirit of Bob firsthand. Well as I helped in the youth, I ended up loving it as well. I was still very gun-shy and tried to keep my distance. I don’t know exactly what happened but Bob let him go too. I venture to say because he wasn’t a yes man. He would speak up when he needed to and that is just not acceptable to Bob. Bob runs the show with an iron fist. He basically told him on a Wednesday night that he was to perform worship and someone else would teach. I was called aside and told that he quit to pursue his music career. My first thought was, “What?” Then I thought, “I know him and he wouldn’t just leave the kids he loves, that’s not like him.” The look on his face that night was hurt beyond measure and I knew something was wrong. It all came back to me again, how they treated my friend a year prior and how Bob bullied me around and I thought I’m not going through this again.
Because this youth pastor was let go so suddenly, we decided to have a going away party for him at my friend Deanna house. We invited the youth group and anyone else who wanted to say good-bye and good luck. After that evening, it was decided that we would start a Bible study there and he could lead it. Anyone was invited to come, even those who didn’t attend Calvary Chapel. My husband and I intended to purchase Deanna’s home and continue to have the study. Pastor Mike called me to ask me how the move was going and I told him fine. He then proceeded to ask me if I was going to continue having that Bible study in my home after I bought the house and I said, “Yes, is that a problem?” His reply was, “Well…not for me.” I knew exactly who had the problem with that, the man who needs to control everything. It was then that I decided to leave. I thought to myself, I will never go to a church that feels they have the authority to tell me I cannot have a Bible study in my home. Prior to that call from Mike, Bob glared at me in the foyer of the church with his arms folded. My husband walked right up to him and said, “Hi Bob how are you this morning?” Later Russ said, “Wow did you see him staring you down?” I said I was aware he was trying to intimidate me into submission again. He continued to pick apart the Bible study in my home until everyone finally quit coming. In my opinion, he is relentless and ruthless.
I first stayed because I didn’t want to remove my children from the church they loved and then I left so Bob could never harm my children spiritually. I had suffered enough under his leadership and in the end my children were indeed effected by all of this….they should have been able to have a wonderful church to attend all their lives, with wonderful memories and now all they have is the memories of a pastor who bullied around their mother. We attend church now but it is very few and far between and my children just sit with us and they don’t get involved and neither do I. My heart and soul are still damaged.
After I left, I began to wonder about a few things…
Why was the name changed from CCV to Immanual Christian Fellowship?
Why did all those good people leave around this time?
What was Glick going to bring forward to the church?
How come I never saw a church budget the entire time I was there? Didn’t even know there was such a thing until after I left and noticed other churches were completely transparent with the financial records.
Where is all the tithe money going exactly?
Why wasn’t it ever made known who the board was? I guess it wouldn’t have mattered anyway if they really weren’t able to make a difference if you had a complaint.
Who actually owns that church property? Who is on the deed?
Then the blogs began to roll and new info was coming out….what happened to the Grenier boys? Paul? It was then I knew I needed to take a stand to give these boys some credibility to their accusations. After experiencing what I had personally, I could see those things happening to them.
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In addition to sharing with me her personal story, Tina also sent me a copy of the letter her family sent to Pastor Bob Grenier saying they would no longer be attending the church. Here it is:
Sent May 11, 2007 at 8:57 am
Dear Pastor Bob,
This email is to inform you that we will no longer be attending Calvary Chapel Visalia for the following reasons:
I believe it is my duty to you, and the wonderful people of Calvary Chapel, to speak the truth in love. I have prayed for you that love and compassion would fill your heart, and I will continue to pray for you and the Body of Christ that God has placed in your care.
I would first like to say that back in 1988, I was saved under your ministry, and my husband shortly afterward. We have raised 4 wonderful children in the Lord, under the teachings and leadership of those at Calvary Chapel. We have also built many deep and loving relationships with the members of the body, as we consider them family. I appreciate all of the wonderful things that you have done for Calvary Chapel and the community as a whole. Your work as a police chaplain, the starting of Reaching Youth, the starting of a Community Prayer, all of which God has blessed, and may more I’m sure.
However over the past 5 or 6 years, while I was in leadership, I have observed some things that have broken my heart. One of which is the lack of love and compassion from you as the senior pastor. In the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13:1 says, “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.” I will tell you with a sincere heart, that you are one of the best Bible teachers I have heard and because of this I would consider myself to be well grounded. I believe it is God’s will that you represent Him correctly to the Body of Christ, that is in your care, not only in word but actions (with compassion and love). As you know, our actions speak louder than our words. As a senior pastor the love & compassion for his flock should be a given and should be overflowing.
I have watched and seen many in leadership just disappear. I have also observed that the church is run by fear and intimidation. It appears that our church is run like a corporate business, with you as the CEO, rather than a shepherd taking tender care of the flock. I learned very quickly not to do or say anything that might upset you out of fear, not respect. While at a staff meeting you mentioned, “This is not a country club and I know a pastor that fired his whole staff and replaced them.” This type of statement is very offensive, shows no love nor appreciation, and would offend those on a construction site, let alone the house of God. Another thing I guess I just never got over was when I was taken to the back room and where you shared your disgruntled feelings toward someone I hold dear to my heart and then told me if I repeated it to him than I can also leave. That blew me away and needless to say showed me your heart. Just to make you aware, XXXX got saved at Calvary and was a new believer when you placed him in a position of leadership. He loved and respected you and as far a I could see would have done anything for you, even given his life. You in your wisdom, if you weren’t pleased with his service, could have let him go in a way that would have spared his heart. Since he left, he has questioned his faith and really has not found another church family. If things were handled the way Jesus would handle them, then he would still be attending Calvary.
I know that you have a deep relationship with God, but intense stares of disapproval in the foyer because of a Bible study, that by your standard, is not “Calvary ordained”, does not show God’s love. This Bible study is for adults as well as children to hear the Word of God and there have been many people who do not even attend church, come and hear the Word. It wasn’t meant to cause waves, nor was it meant to be Calvary ordained. It was meant to be “God ordained”. It’s just good Christian people getting together for the Word, worship and fellowship. Pastor XXXX has a gift from God as you well know, otherwise you wouldn’t have hired him. Please don’t let your sense of having to be in control, and pride hinder the work of God. Just as a sub note, I lead a Bible study with my parents that is not “Calvary ordained ” and my parents have grown in the Lord and my mom is now saved. I’ve seen a lot of half-truths being spoken to the flock and knew my head was on the chopping block for extending to Pastor XXXX our future home for a Bible study.
In addition, it is apparent to all that visit our facility, that it is beautiful and well maintained. But there is an overemphasis on this, while other ministries suffer financially. The youth and children’s ministry should always be above the facility, since they are the future church. Unfortunately, having worked in the children’s ministry I know they come last. Honestly, we could do without all of the elaborate things we have obtained. I personally would rather sit on a lawn chair in the park and hear the Word preached by a loving pastor, than sit in a cathedral with one who lacks love and compassion. Where did this all go wrong?
I really believe the Lord is grieved. Yes, we should love and respect our pastor as I know the Word says, but you have an obligation to the Lord not to abuse the flock. We are not disposable, we are the Body of Christ. Perhaps you have forgotten this is not your church, it’s God’s and placed in your care. I want it to be known that I love everyone at Calvary but I just can’t stay where I don’t feel the love from you and I refuse to be intimidated and made to feel uneasy when I go to church. If someone asked me why I left, I’ll say I needed a loving and compassionate pastor. You may share this email with anyone you see fit. I have emailed this to Pastor Mike and Pastor Jim so as to keep the record straight. No response is necessary, I have nothing more to say. Except “Love the flock”.
Respectfully,
The Jenkins Family
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Hello everybody, just caught up on reading this blog, powerful stuff blows me out the water. Just reading that’s all. Love bro. Lee
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Norris, I begin to see. If you can receive it, my heart goes out to you. No need to reply, although I would be pleased if you choose to do so.
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Hello Gary, surely I will reply, I always must show a willingness to forgive, that is what our Lord and Saviour is all about. I should change my name to misunderstood. However I believe in second chances. (Jonah 3:1). God has given me one to reside with my family once again. Hallelujah for that!
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I love you back, Lee—my true and beautiful brother!
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Dear Monax,
I was just able to catch up and read what you wrote from the link you provided, and my heart is stuck in my throat… What can mere words say to convey the compassion & sorrow that is flooding my heart & filling my eyes after reading more about the hell that you have been through… O dear one in Christ, I hope by calling it hell, that doesn’t offend you. For me, abuse has been a hell of its own. Thank-You for sharing your heart. I literally feel as if I am on holy ground, it is very sacred to share our secrets, and the way people respond here is a taste of what heaven might be like. Lord Bless You.
THIS!!
Monax- April 11, 2013 @ 12:20 PM
to love and be loved
to know and be known
to understand and be understood
truly, what more is there?
What more is there? Amen or YES… I hear so much beauty coming out of your words Monax that I am wondering if it springs from ashes… Perhaps I am taking that scripture totally out of context?
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
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trees of righteousness indeed!
Gail,
dissociation is a deep mystery. . . even to someone like myself who experienced it as a child and researched it as an adult. . . it is an extraordinary gift from God.
i shed some tears earlier today thinking about what i wrote yesterday—how the childhood alter who absorbed the abuse may be dead.
simply: i don’t know what he knows. . . and in a sense, Gail, the abuse did not happen to me. i—the guy that’s been me for over thirty years—does not know what he knew. i did not experience it, nor do i have access to the traumatic memories.
so, if i may take a moment to pay tribute to him. . .
he was a true hero. . . and he—like Christ—took it all upon his person so that the rest of dissociated me could grow up in the beautiful daylight oblivious to the horrors of night. i thank him and praise the LORD for the life he gave to the world. . . and most especially for the relative happy life he gave me as a child.
so i grieve with you today, my friends, for what happened to a little boy that was me—but not me. and i take this opportunity to cry also for all the little boys and little girls who even now are experiencing things they never were created to experience.
thanks for the opportunity to cry. . . it’s like a rain that purifies the air
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A Amos Love 🙂 you never offend me. I’m not easily offended and this thread isn’t about me. I wrote it so someone might relate and know they weren’t alone. My prayer is that others would recognize spiritual abuse and run from it.
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I share your prayer, Tina, that others would recognize spiritual abuse and not support it. This may mean a running from it. It may also mean (for those called to the fight) a running to it—to address and hold known abusers accountable.
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Monax,
I sent you an email. ( :
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Hello Gary W., My bad, I thought about this all day, how i should have ask you also for forgiveness, because I was wrong for calling you a cyber bully. So I pray that you can also forgive me. Love your bro. in-Christ
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Hello Bro. Monax, May God, continue to use you in expressing yourself so clearly. That others may gravitate toward your honesty. Truth and love covers a multitude of sins. God bless you.Bro. Lee
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Go ahead Gail. .
[[ Trigger Warning: discussion of trauma based dissociation commencing ]]
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hey Lee. . please just call me monax. . drop the bro thing with me too, if you wouldn’t mind—it reminds me of a certain creepy church-speak. . i trust you’ll understand.
your words to me remind me of what William Blake said: Every honest man is a prophet.
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************Trigger Warning: discussion of trauma based dissociation************
Monax,
I share your belief that D.I.D. “is an extraordinary gift from God”
If that is the same thing you are referring to when you name it as dissociating…?
I think I am on the right track, because you gave your blessing & gratitude to the alter that absorbed for you the evil that was perpetrated on you as a little boy.
I first learned about D.I.D. from a woman who had been raised in horrors that made my childhood look like a scenes from Father knows best. I am not undermining what I experienced, but I have never heard another story as dark & evil as hers was. It is a long story, but a couple of her alters, starting calling me. I would call her back after I talked to them, pretty they were her alters.
Also, I had been reading about M.P.D. (though the experts don’t call it that now) she was mortified and thought her alters were were getting out of control, but the little ones in her, trusted me & wanted to talk.
O, and there was one hell of a gate keeper who ripped me a new one, but that didn’t scare me. Long story short, I knew a therapist who had worked with others who had these little helpers, and my friend got a lot of help working with this woman. Her alters needed to tell their stories, so they could integrate into one being inside of her.
Truly, it was a gift for her soul, spirit, mind & body to have alters to absorb what a little child, a precious innocent on her own just couldn’t endure…
And through the years I have met many who have had that gift of dissociation. It seems to me one of the most precious needs they have is to know: That it is a divine gift that they have been given, They are not weird, Possessed, Making it up, they were protected in a way that 99.5% of people cannot understand.
Monax, I salute your little hero! Bravo.
And take this in a nut shell, I am not a expert, but I have had some experience with this, and it might be a possiblility that your little guy is very shy.
And with all my being I believe that if the Lord knows you need to connect with him then it will happen under His watchful eye. Bless you my brother in Christ.
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ugh- meant to say, pretty sure they were her alters
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yes. DID DSM-IV+
i know what you’re saying. .
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and i could talk for hours about dissociation. . but i need to turn my present energies to my friend who’s waiting to watch Hanna [a 2011 film] with me. . the description on the Netflix envelope reads promising
i do appreciate what you’ve shared with me, Gail. Thank you. .
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Noris, you have my forgiveness. Thank you for asking. You also have my offer of friendship, although I should perhaps warn you that, to my mind, friendship includes the privilege of being honest–and truth comes easier to me than love. If there is anything you hold against me, and I would be surprised if there isn’t, please forgive me. While I hope you will be gentle, I give you permission to tell me specifically what it is you are needing to forgive. Just be prepared. I reserve the right to argue my case. You see, and I will tell you as much as I have already mentioned about myself in a couple of other threads, I am a lawyer.
If you choose to address me again, you might wish to know that I will not be responding now until at least tomorrow.
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No worries Monax! Signing out myself too. zzzzzzzz”’sssssssssss’szzzzzz’s
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Hanna was a great movie!
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——————
L. O. V. E.
——————-
The
L. anguage O. f V. ictorious E. ternity
Is LOVE
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God Is LOVE
——————-
LOVE one another
——————-
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Gary W
I liked what you said here @ APRIL 9, 2013 @ 3:07 PM…
**maybe those words are just job descriptions.***
“Here’s a little something I’ve been thinking about. When we see the words pastor, teacher, evangelist, apostle, prophet, elder, deacon, overseer in the Bible, ***maybe those words are just job descriptions.*** Like mechanic, secretary, garbage collector or truck driver. I have known a number of mechanics, but not a one of them has ever claimed to hold the office of mechanic. Nor have I ever known anybody who claimed to hold the offices of secretary, garbage collector or truck driver. **These job descriptions don’t tend to get used as titles** as with “pastor so and so.” Who ever addressed anybody as Mechanic Joe? Maybe it happens, but not in my part of the country.”
And we do NOT find anyone, in the Bible, using these job descriptions as “Titles.” 😉
And – I’ve been thinking that these job descriptions can move around a little. 😉
Because we are all brethren and Jesus is the “ONE” teacher. Mat 23:8.
And – It is Christ in “US,” His Ekklesia, His Body, His Church” the Hope of Glory…
When “WE” The church of God, The Body of Christ, comes together,
ALL can, and are expected to, participate. 1 Cor 14:26 – So…
One day – You’re teaching your Revelation of Jesus to me and others. And…
One day – I’m teaching my Revelation of Jesus to you and others.
One day – Gary’s job description sounds like teacher.
One day – Amos’ job description sounds like teacher.
In one comment – monax is teacher – And elder – the more mature one…
More mature in understanding – LOVE – is being understood…
Now because of monax – The Body of Christ, “The Church” “WE” is edified, built up.
Jesus said, I will build MY Church – And that word “build” is also “to edify.” 😉
And you and me and “WE” – is the Body, The Church of God. – NOT a 501(c)3. Corp.
In one comment – Gail is teacher – And elder – the more mature one.
Being able to teach me about – D.I.D. – Dissociative Identity Disorder…
Being “an extraordinary gift from God.”
Now – Because of Gail – Amos, part of the Body, The Church, is built up – Edified.
In one comment – Julie Anne – Is tending the flock, feeding the flock.
Careing for and shepherding The Body of Christ, the Church of God.
Now – Because Julie Anne shepherds – pastors – lays down her life for the sheep.
“WE” here, The Church, the Body of Christ – is Cared for, Built up and Edified.
I like the term – Body Ministry – We are ALL ONE Body. ALL are important.
Gary – Did I explain myself? – Did you get my drift? – Or did I muddy the waters? 😉
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Amos,
There you go again showing us “The Most Excellent Way”
Love Is Indispensable
I can’t speak for Gary, but as for me, no waters were muddied… The body of Christ seems to be operating here on staggering levels!
“Now the body is not made up of one part, but of many,
every joint supplies to the each and the any.
If the foot should say because I am a not hand I don’t belong,
it needs to recall that God placed together the weak & the strong.
“Now you are the body of Christ and each one of has a part in it”
God arranged the members in the body-making sure the less honorable fit!
The eye cannot say to the hand: I don’t need you,
and the heart cannot say to the feet, I have no use for for what you do.
On the contrary those parts of the body that seem weaker are indispensable,
though to the Experts & Leaders that truth seems incomprehensible. ( ;
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Gail
Yup – Much agreement when you write…
“The body of Christ seems to be operating here on staggering levels!”
And it feels so good… 😉
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Gail – Everyone
The last couple of mornings – I read and re-read these comments…
I’m amazed, in awe, thankful for the comments and the commenters…
The Body of Christ – The Ekklesia – The Church – Being Kings and Priests unto God.
Showing – Love in action – Wisdom – Forgiveness – Mercy – Grace…
And I have HOPE…
Pleasant words are as an honeycomb,
sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
Thank you Jesus
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Amos,
You explained yourself and made yourself clear. You are quite gifted in presenting truth in a manner that is not only clear and understandable, but fun to read. I also like the way you keep driving home points that some would resist, and I like the way you do it by bringing the conversation back to Scripture, and then bringing it back to Scripture again.
And I join you in your observation to the effect we all have something to contribute, which isn’t much promoted or even allowed in traditional “church.” Indeed, I have been following the conversation between Gail and Monax with great emotion. Hi Gail and Monax! My failure to join in has nothing to do with lack of interest. It is simply that I see little value in anything I would have to contribute. I must learn from them.
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Amos,
I have prepared a list of things I can think of that paid, professional, pastors (you know what I mean!) might be expected to do. Right now the list is in random order. I am hoping to find the time to put it in an order where the first things listed are the things that would get the pastor fired for not doing them, with the last things listed being those things where the pastor’s failure to do them wouldn’t even be noticed. I have my biases, so I am hoping to get my professional pastor friend to contribute. Then, if I can find anybody willing to take the challenge, I will be asking for specific Scriptural instruction and/or example showing that each activity is prescribed, again specifically, for pastors. Here is the list in its current form:
Preach regularly, including at least on Sunday mornings
Be in charge of regular services
Lead fellowship gatherings
Conduct funeral services
Teach
Pray over people corporately
Privately pray for people corporately
Pray with people individually
Privately pray for people individually
Visit the sick
Evangelize as part of church services
Evangelize one on one
Promote local church growth
Promote giving to the local church
Organize and promote special events
Promote the programs of the denomination
Recruit people to serve in local church ministries
Encourage people to participate in denominational functions
Bind up the broken hearted
Seek signs and wonders
Seek to impart the gift of tongues
Seek to identify individual spiritual gifts
Seek to establish individuals in ministering according to their gifts, talents, training and experience
Demonstrate Christlikeness
Indoctrinate
Protect the church from ideas that disagree with denominational doctrine
Heal the sick
Feed the poor
Clothe the naked
Defend the oppressed
Comfort those who mourn
Weep with those who weep
Laugh with those who laugh
Share in carrying others’ burdens
Take in the homeless
Satisfy the desire of the afflicted
Study the Bible
Study doctrine
Cast out demons
Lobby for righteous laws
Oppose wicked laws
Discipline erring church members
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Gary W
I like your style – Way cool list…
Remember to send me the results when you get it in proper order.
And I’d love to hear what your “professional pastor friend to contribute” says… 😉
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Gary W
Yup…
“we all have something to contribute,
which isn’t much promoted or even allowed in traditional “church.”
Me-thinks that’s because – Those with the “Titles” do NOT really believe…
Really believe that Jesus can “Build” His Church and Jesus can “Teach” “US” ALL Truth.
Me-thinks that’s because – Those with the “Titles” need to protect their
Power – Profit – Prestige – Glory – Honor – Reputation – Recognition, etc…
If ALL being able to contribute was allowed in “traditional “church?”
It wouldn’t be long before sheeple would realize “WE,” “The Church,” do NOT need…
Paid – Professional – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews…
Preventing – Public – Participation – and – Promoting – Passive – Pew – Potatoes….
Procuring – Power – Profit – Prestige – for the Prevailing – Parsing – Pastors…
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Hi Gary. Hi Amos.
What makes me smile when I read you men, what makes my heart happy and glad, is that you are like me and Bavinck in believing “[t]he only standard by which the church can be judged is Scripture itself. The true church really has only one mark: the Word of God. . . . The Word and the Word alone is truly the soul of the church.”
Yes, the Holy Scripture is our only standard for faith and practice. And as we agree on this—we have solid ground from which to engage each other. I know my last engagement with you guys ended without me fully answering all your challenges. I still plan to do this, but as you well know: “the heart of man plans his way, but the LORD—ultimately—determines his steps.” Looks like a “few days” at my end is turning into a “few months.”
I know it will be a significant investment in time on my part to answer all your challenges, but I do hope to make a good effort of it—who knows—maybe this early Summer? [I haven’t even looked at ja’s more recent Comp / Egal threads for lack of time to commit to what I know will be a deeply edifying, energy-intensive conversation.] So, my beautiful brothers, please know that I’m sitting on some answers until a freer time.
One thing, in the moment, I’d like to reiterate is a caution against conflating the role of pastor with that of elder. You can find my thoughts on this and your challenges to me here: http://spiritualauthority.wordpress.com/2012/12/23/question-of-rebellion/
Something new, Amos, I’d like to challenge you on.
Here’s Paul’s directive: ‘Let the elders who lead well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture say, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages”’ (1 Tim 5:17-18).
Is it not—a la Scripture—our Christian duty to provide for those good elders who labor in preaching and teaching? Why should we be against paying our faithful pastors and teachers for the difficult tasks they’ve been gifted and called by God to do?
. .
Gail, so true—this incomprehensibility of honor due the seemingly weaker members of the body. Let me continue your quoting from 1 Corinthians 12:
…the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
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Sacred Gail, i’d be curious to hear more about this gate keeper.
Sad story: half my life ago i received a phone call from a beloved friend a thousand miles away. it was her little girl alter who had called me crying for help. so i hopped on a plane and flew to see her. i believed if i were given just a half hour alone with her i might have been successful in bringing my friend out of her haze. but her handler wouldn’t allow me a moment alone with her. after i attempted for over 36 hours—unsuccessfully—to connect with her, i flew back home the following night. high above a thunderstorm i remember feeling remarkably numb and through watery eyes watching lightning everywhere illuminating the clouds below.
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Monax,
You are quite right to observe that pastor/elder/overseer or, worse, bishop/elder/overseer cannot be viewed as one and the same, although I did engage in just such a conflation in earlier posts. Partly I am willing to do this just to avoid getting distracted from the issue at hand. But also, there is a bit of polemical judo involved. If somebody is using un-Scriptural terminology, it becomes more difficult for them to point to Scripture that supports their position. Well, there, I ‘ve given away my little secret.
And, if I may be so bold as to respond to a question to put to Amos, I say, yes, wages to the laborer, grain to the ox, and double honor to those who labor in teaching and preaching. I’m not saying that those who teach and preach should never be paid. We are not under law, though we should embrace wisdom, and we are at liberty to pay those who teach and preach, if we so choose. Just please don’t anybody tell me that I am required to be a member of any created-by-men organization, that these organizations are to be headed up by a single man or woman (whether you call them pastors, ministers, parsons, bishops or whatever), and that the congregants are compelled to pay the old covenant tithe to pay their salary. Where does the Bible every say anybody is entitled to a salary?
I am a bit uncomfortable with my analysis in that Jesus did say that a laborer is entitled to his wages. Luke 10:7. Even there, however, Jesus was speaking of itinerant ministers being given shelter, food and drink while ministering. When I look at the discussions of gifts and the descriptions of fellowship in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, the impression I get is that the ordinary expectation is that all ministry comes from within the local body, that each contributes according to their gifting, talents, training and experience, and nobody is expecting to be paid. It is another story when ministers are brought in from outside, but even there it appears to be more a matter of covering expenses.
Maybe Paul claimed the right of apostles to be paid, but I don’t know where to look for it right now, and his example was to pay his own way.
On the other hand, I’m thinking I should go back and ask to be compensated for all the times I have taught, in one capacity or another, without being paid.
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Yes, Gary, terminology is key. And, agreed—Christians are under no compulsion to give to church, nor are they subject to the old covenant tithe. I think I happily agree with everything you said above. 1 Cor 9 is where Paul surrenders his rights for material honor.
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monax
Thanks for the challenge…
And believe it NOT – I do have some answers for you – When you write…
“Here’s Paul’s directive: ‘Let the elders who lead well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture say, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages”’ (1 Tim 5:17-18).”
“Is it not—a la Scripture—our Christian duty to provide for those good elders who labor in preaching and teaching? Why should we be against paying our faithful pastors and teachers for the difficult tasks they’ve been gifted and called by God to do?”
Sounds like a very reasonable assumption…
“WE” “The Ekklesia,” “The Called out Ones” should be paying our faithful pastors.
That’s what I believed at one time. – And taught at one time. 🙂
But – Since leaving “The Religious System” I see it a little different.
NOT that I have “The Final Answer – I do reserve the right to be wrong.
Been wrong a few times in the past and have changed my mind.
So, I have a few (A lot of.) questions to ask of you before we continue.
————
1 – In the Bible, Where does it say an “elder” is a – “pastor?”
In the Bible, can you name one “elder” that had the “Title” – pastor?
In the Bible, can you name one “elder” that called them self – pastor?
If there are NO elders called “pastor” in the Bible?
Does this non-biblical pastor still “deserves his wages?”
————
2 – Is this “elder” here, an office, And you become an “elder” when ordained?
Or is this “elder” – elder, of age, advanced in life, already Overseeing?
And Paul, in 1 Tim 3 and Titus is saying…
Find “elders” who qualify – and ordain them – appoint them – Overseers.
Because – they were already older, and they qualified – then were ordained?
And there is a reasonable debate on both sides of the issue.
It’s NOT so cut and dried – NOT an easy answer – Unless you desire this “Position.”
Then I just get someone with a some official looking papers and a “Title”
To give me some papers and to ordain me and I’m an “elder” that you pay.
Okay – that’s a bit of sarcasm – Forgive me – But it’s also true – So I’ll leave it. 😉
————
3 – Does this “elder” have to meet ALL the tough qualifications in 1 Tim 3 and Titus?
And – If this “elder” does NOT have to meet ALL the qualifications? Why NOT?
————
4 – Leading “WELL” – Ruling “WELL” KJV – Seems to be the major draw back here.
Because – Ruling “WELL” – seems to be another qualification from Paul.
Like when he gives the other qualifications for this potential Elder/Overseer.
In 1 Tim 3:4-5 KJV
“One that “ruleth well” his own house,
having his children in subjection with all gravity”
(For if a man know not how to “rule his own house,” (protect – guard – care for)
how shall he take care of the church of God?)
————
5 – What is the standard for – *Lead “Well?”* Rule “WELL?”
How do we know what that is? Who determines if an “elder” is Ruling WELL?
If they are NOT Ruling WELL? – Do they still “deserves his wages?”
If they do NOT qualify to be an Elder/Overseer? – Do they still “deserves his wages?”
Or, should they remove themselves and go do something else?
————
6 – Lead or Rule here in the Greek – is Stongs #4291 – proistemi – And…
Thayers has “proistemi” as…
1- to set or place before. 1a- to set over.
1b- to be over, to superintend, preside over.
1c- to be a protector or guardian. 1c1- to give aid.
1d- to care for, give attention to.
WOW – This one who Rules is someone who…
Is a protector, a guardian, gives aid, cares for, gives attention to…
Now, to me that’s a whole different flavor then how we understand “Leader” today.
Leader – Dictionary – “The person who leads or commands a group,”
Command – Dictionary – “give an authoritative order”
So, leader today means – someone who leads a group giving authoritative orders.
No thanks – tried that stuff a few times…
Did NOT work out so well having humans who lead. They stinketh… 😦
If this “elder” is NOT – protecting – guarding – caring for – giving attention – “WELL?”
Do they still “deserves his wages?”
————
So that’s my little challenge back to you – Sorry for the long windedness.
But I believe these questions to be important.
Jesus loves “US” this I know…
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***** caution trigger alert for those who might suffer from D.I.D.*****
Monax: I will share with you, with some trembling, not because of how you will respond, but as you are aware a lot of Christian, heck, even those in the mental heath field remain divided on D.I.D. Christians especially are rather brutal on this subject because some insist that the BIBLE doesn’t address it, or they say it is demonic, and that is not a complete list of how misunderstood this topic is, as I am sure you are very aware. Sigh.
So as far as terms go, I think handler & gate keeper are the same term, correct me if I am wrong. So, after the little ones had called me, and I reached out to my friend to tell her what had happened, a few days later I got a call. (I don’t know how the little ones got around the gatekeeper/handler) but it left a very disturbing message on our recorder. My sweet hubby, came home at lunch & played the message when I was out. He was incredulous and very disturbed. (Poor man, he was dealing with me & my screaming nightmares at that leg of our marriage)
The message from “whatever” part that was calling me was threatening & furious.
Making threats to harm *Sally* and telling me to back off.
Perhaps evil or her parents had programed her with this part, I don’t know. She was raised by people, yes parents, who were satanic worshipers. I know this sounds crazy…
Luckily, I knew the therapist that my friend eventually went to see and I called her for advice. She calmly explained what steps I needed to take.
It really breaks my heart that the church is so deaf & dumb & irresponsible, or may I say, ignorant on the reality that people/children can split. It is such a mysterious wonder, a saving grace for the innocents who just cannot bear the terror & agony that evil subjects little hearts too.
Yikes… does that answer your question?
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Yes, Amos, leading well means that the elders at least meet the minimum biblical qualifications for oversight. While it is true that there are a host of unqualified elders and “ministers of righteousness” within our churches fleecing the flock—this ubiquitous assumption of false authority does not negate our biblical directive regarding the honor we are to give our good and faithful servants who labor in the study, preaching and teaching of Scripture among us.
My friend, for those who are doing it well—this type of ministry is quite time-intensive.
I’m not at all denying that there are unworthy elders ministering over all sorts of houses of bondage. I’m just challenging you, Amos, not to deny that Scripture does direct us to provide for those elders who are indeed worthy.
So, Yes, assuming that these men are completely qualified and serving blessedly they do deserve some remuneration for their labor.
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Gail, You said this:
You, sister, are blessed with a gift. Wow. As I was watching comments come in behind the scenes in Word Press, I didn’t realize I was only seeing the top paragraphs and I finally figured out that I was missing complete comments and had to see what you guys were talking about. This conversation has blessed the socks off me. You are right – few understand dissociation.
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Interesting, Gail. Thanks.
Fyi: handlers (are different than programmers) they basically “handle” the programmed asset. Handlers are outside perps. The young woman who acted as her handler at the time was her lesbian girlfriend. I fear if this handler was a man I would have (in my then immaturity and anger) got violent with him. But I was raised never to touch a woman—so I stayed safely out of jail by not laying a hand on her.
Gate keepers are generally inside alters often with demonic overlays. When someone uses this term I immediately suspect we’re dealing with a structured system of alters, someone who’s a victim of severe trauma-based programming.
Trauma-based mind control (which it is popularly called) is reportedly big in the intelligence and military cults. The science of this level of dissociation is a state secret. The DSMs and University teachings on dissociation are essentially screens to mask something more horrifying than the average person would ever be able to believe.
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Praise God saints (is that better), Well I would love to be the test dummy, however I’m going out of town, won’t be back until Sunday afternoon. However I went over all of what y’all are saying would love to participate and give my two cents. (smile) Hello Gary luv ya. You too monax and the rest of ya. Keep me in prayer that I have a safe trip with my wife to see my son run at the pomona meet. see you when I get back. Bro. Lee in-Christ
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By the way, Bible does not teach tithing in the new testament. God speed
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Monax- you shared: ‘Sad story: “Half my life ago i received a phone call from a beloved friend a thousand miles away. it was her little girl alter who had called me crying for help. so i hopped on a plane and flew to see her. i believed if i were given just a half hour alone with her i might have been successful in bringing my friend out of her haze. but her handler wouldn’t allow me a moment alone with her. after i attempted for over 36 hours—unsuccessfully—to connect with her”
I assume that her little girl- despite her alter- knew & felt the effort you made on her behalf… Because Love & Kindness is never wasted… However, it is the conundrum of the already but not yet… All of this is the Lord’s work, we, us, and others, are His hands & feet to love & to simply listen to the abused, the broken, because of where we have traveled. We don’t have to fix. That is His job, and fix is the wrong word, because He doesn’t fix, Christ understands, because there is no searching of His understanding…
“Why do you complain, Jacob?
Why do you say, Israel,
“My way is hidden from the Lord;
my cause is disregarded by my God”?
Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The Lord is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He will not grow tired or weary,
and his understanding no one can fathom.
Love to you Monax…
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Enjoy your weekend with family, Bro. Lee!
Also, everyone, please pray for me. I’ve got a family event tomorrow that’s gonna be a tad difficult for me. It’s me grandmother’s memorial service. And now with my grandmother having gone on to be with the LORD, I’m not all that willing anymore to “play” family with my mother. This Xmas was difficult. She crossed some lines again, and I feel like for the sake of my own health—I need some space from her for a time. So that’s what’s up with me.
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I will pray for you… You have insight & knowing in your knower that you do not have to play family to your mum… To thy own self be true, then thou cannot be false to to another.. Do what you feel in your gut is right! Holding you in prayer as you endure loss of your grandmum & possible misunderstanding.
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Honestly Julie, I am perplexed & without answers, I only know how heartbreaking it is for those who have suffered from not being heard or understood because they have dissociated… Bless You Julie for allowing & inviting these difficult & often misunderstood discussions…
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Monax- Please bear with me. I was a babe in the woods, when I begun to listen & hear how some were experiencing with D.I.D…. Just read your comment and explanations on D.I.D.
All I can say is: i don”t know all the correct terms- all i know is the sadness, & horror, that these precious ones have experienced…
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Monax, I hear you. We have much in common. I pray God gives you wisdom and freedom from false guilt. It’s tough when we have to “play family”.
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Monax, I’m sorry for your loss.
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Just trying to read through lots that I’ve missed on this thread. Wanted to note that Monax, your act of flying out to see your friend in hopes of helping her was such an act of love. Though she may not have ever understood what you did, I want to thank you for the incredible gesture. That’s a Jesus move.
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Katie, Wish I would have said what you did, “an act of love, a Jesus move”
Perfect.
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monax
I’m sorry for your loss. And NOT being able to feel comfortable playing family.
I understand, at least a little, what you’re going thru. In my “natural” family None wanted to talk about Jesus. Over a few years I stopped drinking, smoking and cursing – God just took away the desire to do these things – Now both parents were functional alcoholics – My mother constantly complained about my fathers drinking – But she was very angry with me when I stopped and my family wanted me to see a shrink when I told them Jesus had healed my back. NO family affaires were NOT much fun… 🙂
You have a blessed weekend – anyway… 😉
And – Who Knows – there might be someone there who needs some LOVE.
Some words of encouragement – Someone who needs to be understood.
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I was the only one in the family who got saved. Out of all the kids who were drugging, sleeping with anything that moved, blowing off their high end education, burning through inheritance money, I was the only one who changed (by God’s grace) and didn’t do those things. I worked hard, got my degree, stayed clean, and tried very hard to love them while they spit in my face … literally. It’s been 30 years, and I’m still the pariah of the family.
When we had the grand babies, and did whatever the other family members wanted (within reason, but on their schedule and what they liked,) we had decade of manageable relationships. However, once our mother reached her later years, she was filled with so many regrets that she began acting out and blaming me for everything. I guess I am a safe target because I won’t fight dirty. But it’s gotten to the point that we have to now protect our kids.
As I look back, it’s no surprise that I ended up in an authoritarian church where I thought things were safe, ordered in their boxes, predictable. I needed what I thought was safety. But I was wrong and now I see. The good news is that I can detect the safe people much better these days. And by “safe” I mean someone who isn’t hell bent on my destruction, or those who will crush me if I’m in their way with a smile on their face, pronouncing it’s all for Jesus …
I had a “trigger” the other day and my more gracious speech is missing for now.
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Thank you church for your thoughts and prayers. I’m also thankful—Amos, Katie, Gail—for the sharing of your stories.
I’m home now, my family event is over. It was a most beautiful memorial service and I sat with some wonderful people at lunch. I feel spent—yet have a good measure of peace, joy and gladness. Watching golf now with a dark and tasty Belgian beer.
So you know: My Grandmother was a most beautiful and godly woman. She was one of my best friends too. And although I can no longer pick up the phone and connect with her in that way, I do believe she’s “looking down” on me and can hear the words I speak to her.
It’s really no loss. She was 93. It was her time to go. And now she’s with the LORD and Grandpa and the rest—and in way now I feel more spiritually connected to her than before (for she has UNDERSTANDING now). Her presence is with me.
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I considered not going to the memorial service. . . just heading over to the country club where we’d be doing lunch. So I was in no hurry to get there, but somehow I pulled up to the mausoleum just shortly after the service began.
I sat in the back in a big chair the director pulled up for me. After about ten minutes of sitting there I had to get up and walk away. I’m assuming my niece saw me slip out and alerted her mom, because my sister found me in a marbled alcove and asked if I was ok. I shrugged and smiled with tears in my eyes, “Yeah, I’m ok.” So I gave her a kiss and a hug.
As she hugged me I began to cry. I said, “I’m ok. It’s healthy to cry.” Then I told her how it was difficult for me being there “with mom and all.” [My sister, btw, hasn’t “played” family with our mom for twenty years.] I told her it wasn’t just mom, but a whole perfect storm of issues I was crying about.
And then there was a moment when I couldn’t help but to sob. I don’t mind these moments—they’re necessary, I embrace them. I felt an overwhelming sorrow fill my heart—a deep utter sadness over the brokenness of relationships, the brokenness of families, the brokenness of my own beautiful broken f***ed up god blessed life. I sobbed for a moment.
I am thankful for the opportunities to weep. And while I sobbed, my friends, I will tell you I also cried for Alex, for Paul, for Gayle. Alex Grenier has been constantly on my heart and mind. I pray for him continually. I weep even now as I write this. And they are glad tears—as much as these are glad words. For my mourning even now is a dancing—and my words are glad to have found YOU. . . to have found UNDERSTANDING
***JA edited
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i weep
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I am now weeping with you Monax, (and as you know) Jesus is experiencing your heart, and co mingling his holy tears with yours, for we have not an high priest which cannot be touched. Such tenderness and sympathy has our Great High Priest.
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true
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Monax,
I bet you are going to miss her, she sounds wonderful. I really loved this: And now she’s with the LORD and Grandpa and the rest—and in way now I feel more spiritually connected to her than before (for she has UNDERSTANDING now). Her presence is with me.
That is beautiful, my mom died in August and I don’t feel connected to her, but I do ask the Lord to tell her I miss her.
And this was pure glory: “And then there was a moment when I couldn’t help but to sob. I don’t mind these moments—they’re necessary, I embrace them. I felt an overwhelming sorrow fill my heart—a deep utter sadness over the brokenness of relationships, the brokenness of families, the brokenness of my own beautiful broken f***ed up god blessed life. I sobbed for a moment.”
That is where I started crying…You really know how to share from your heart. Thank-You for you. Thank-you for the way you write.
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Ahhh, Yes. I made You cry!
=]
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Nah. I don’t really miss her. I looked in on her and cared for her after Grandpa passed, while she was still here in Pittsburgh. But that was over a decade ago before she moved up w/ her daughter in Cape Elizabeth. I missed her then, but I presently don’t. With Grandma presently in heaven I feel—by some measure of faith—that I have greater access to her now.
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David – What an emotional day for you. I’m so sorry that you will no longer have the precious relationship with your grandmother on earth, but rejoice that you know she is home. You’re right – the broken families, the pain, the mourning, your family, Alex’s family, so many families who have been affected by abuse – – it’s all so very sad. Thank you for your transparency here, brother. It’s difficult and beautiful because you’re right, they are healthy tears. hugs to you!
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thanks ja. .
it was a good day. .
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monax
David – Thanks for the up-date.
This was a real blessing…
“I couldn’t help but to sob. I don’t mind these moments—they’re necessary,
I embrace them.”
Amen…
They that sow in tears shall reap in joy.
Psalm 126:5
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monax
David – You might already know this…
I just looked up the meaning, in Hebrew, of your name – David.
And – From your up-dates, and other writings…
It seems you are a living living example of your – Name. – Go figure… 😉
David – in Strongs is – #01732 – daw-veed’ – From the same as 01730; – “loving.” 🙂
David – in Thayers is – “beloved” 🙂
David – in the NAS 95 is – “beloved one” 🙂
And – I can hear Jesus saying…
… I have found *David*…
a man after mine own heart,
which shall fulfil all my will.
Acts 13:22
Because *David* did that which was right in (My Eyes.) the eyes of the LORD,
and turned not aside from any thing that He (“I Am.”) commanded him
all the days of his life…
1 Kings 15:5
I Jesus… I am the root and the offspring of *David*…
Rev 22:16
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“Ahhh, Yes. I made You cry!”
=]
Monax, Not sure how to take that. I’m not offended just curious. Hard to read between the lines on internet. Tears indeed are cleansing.
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Monax, sorry for your loss. May pleasant memories fill your heart and mind. May God’s peace surround you.
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ohhh goodness! now i see how that might inflect. so sorry, Gail. so often i wish i could go back and edit my words here. i only meant to express a recognition of the power of words.
fwiw, You and others make me cry with your words, your stories, your encouragements and such here.
Sacred Gail—i only meant to express my warmest regards. .
=]
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and to express my recognition that i know you understand. .
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thank you Tina. .
and Yes, Amos, i’ve endeavored from childhood to live up to my beloved name sake… Ohhh how I ever want to live as a man after God’s own heart. . and slay lions and bears and goliaths along the way. . =]
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Its all good. I hear you. I often wish for that edit button also. Thank-you for answering
I would have been pounded by ex pastor for asking… You know that drill.
I know how much gets lost in translation on internet- not being able to hear the tone of voice and all.
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Ooo my goodness! Even in face to face speech there’s sometimes a lot that get’s lost in translation. .
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Katie
I can relate – Sounds very familiar…
“tried very hard to love them while they spit in my face … literally.
It’s been 30 years, and I’m still the pariah of the family.”
Well – I missed the spit part – but – 30 years and counting…
AAAHH – Yes – a pariah – an outcaste… I know what that means – Ouch!!! 😦
And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:36
“They” – did NOT tell me – my own family would be my foe…
….. When I signed up for this gig. 😉
“They”- did NOT tell me – Jesus came to bring division…
….. And – there shall be five in one house divided, three against two.
….. Or, in my case – Many, ALL, against one…
“They” – told me I’d be the head and NOT the tail…
“They” – told me… – Wow – did I ever mis-understand – “They” – Then… 🙂
And much agreement when you say…
“The good news is that I can detect the safe people much better these days.”
Me too – Now when “They” begin to speak – my Strange B. S. Meter sounds an alarm.
And that – Strange B. S. stands for – Strange Belief Systems… 😉
And – I have NO place else to go – Only Jesus has the words of Eternal Life.
Thank you Jesus…
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Amos or anyone. . do you know of Walter Wangerin, Jr’s book _Mourning into Dancing_? In it he asks, Where is there life without relationship?
It was in reading him that I first began to more clearly understand the relational mystery and meaning of life and death.
Wangerin breaks it down like this:
For this is what Death is: Death is always suffered as separation. Because this is what life is: Life is always experienced in relationship. When the significant relationship breaks… we die a death right there.
And here is Wangerin’s take on grief:
[C]onsider how often grief overtakes us and bewilders us precisely because we don’t understand either the sadness or the source—don’t even know its name. It is always better to know its name, infinitely better to understand the process that shall continue to involve us, or else we will (like children) resist and fight as if against an enemy. In fact, grief is not an enemy. It hurts, to be sure. But it is the hurt of healing. Grief is the grace of God within us, the natural process of recovery for those who have suffered death, exactly as the slash in my arm, with scabs and pain and itchings, healed. Grief is itself the knitting of wounded souls, the conjoining again of brokenness.
Yes, there is an enemy stalking about, one so close to grief that it is easy to mistake them. But that’s all the more reason to name and distinguish the two: not grief, _death_ is the enemy!
It’s a good book especially for those who are grieving the death of relationship.
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Gail,
Walter Wangerin Jr writes in such a way he makes me—a grown man—cry!
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Walter Wangerin Jr is both a pastor and a story-teller. .
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monax
I have NOT read the book – But…
In the Bible – I can see where Death often speaks about separation from God/Jesus…
God warned Adam and Eve about the fruit – About Knowing Good and Evil….
“for in the day that thou eatest thereof *thou shalt surely die.*”
But – When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of that infamous tree…
They did NOT die physically… They were * Separated from the Garden*…
And – There was a “Separation in their Relationship” with God.
So, are we being warned about dying?
Or, being warned about (Separation?) from God?”
And how (God restoring the Relationship?) is a gift from God.
For the wages of sin is death; (Separation?)
but the gift of God
is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (God restoring the Relationship?)
Ro 6:23
For as in Adam all die, (Separation?)
even so in Christ shall
all be made alive. (God restoring the Relationship?)
1 Cor 15:22
1 Cor 15:56
The sting of death is sin; (Separation?)
and the strength of sin is the law. (Separation?)
For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are *NOT under the law,* (Separation?)
but *Under Grace. (God restoring the Relationship?)
Rom 6:14
Here is a simple rule of thumb for me to know where I’m living…
Under Law – (Separation?)
Or – Under Grace. – (God restoring our Relationship?)
When I Focus on **self** – I’m living “Under the Law.” (Separation?)
(What is “Amos“ doing? – Good or Evil?) Hmmm? That pesky tree again. 😉
When I Focus on *Jesus* – I’m living “Under Grace.” (God restoring our Relationship?)
(What is “ Jesus “ doing?- Forgiving, cleansing, showing mercy.) Tree of “Life?”
His Blood “cleanses me” from “ALL” my sin. Jesus forgives me.
His mercies are “NEW” every morning. And Jesus remembers my sin no more.
That means I don’t have to remember my sin either. It’s gone. 😉
Thank you Jesus… 🙂
Yes – for me, “Death” in the Bible often speaks about…
“Separation in my Relationship” with God.
And – “Grace ” in the Bible often speaks about…
“God restoring our Relationship.”
And I’m glad Jesus knows how to accomplish that… 😉
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He makes very tall women cry, too. I’m a mess after reading that, David. Thankfully I don’t have mascara on right now.
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I read Mourning into Dancing so many years ago however, my aging brain has forgotten most of what was written… Beautiful stuff… Heading out to brunch now. Hugs!
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Exactly, Amos. .
Considering further the theme of death as separation:
As Adam and Eve experienced two deaths—first a spiritual death, then a physical death, so did our Lord Jesus die two deaths that day on the cross (( after crying out ‘My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me’. . . . He then uttered a loud cry and breathed His last indicating first a spiritual, then a physical death )).
[[ side note: we might also consider the cross of Christ as both a tree of life and a tree of death (i.e., the tree of knowledge of good and evil) ]]
The spiritual death Adam and Eve experienced the day of their disobedience was God’s removal of His living Presence from their spiritual lives. For the LORD God had emphasized to Adam: ‘in the day you eat of [the tree of knowledge] you shall surely die.’ (( In the Hebrew text there is a repetition of the word for death—mot tamut—which literally reads: ‘in dying you will die.’ This verbal construction is academically called an infinitive absolute, and is used for emphasis, indicating here not only a certainty of death—‘you will surely die’—but also, as I read it, that one type of death will be followed by another.
We read in Isaiah 59:2, ‘Your sins have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you.’ This is the consequence of rebellion against God—spiritual death and separation from God.
The physical death Adam and Eve eventually experienced was a removal of their spirits from their bodies. James 2:26 describes how ‘the body without the spirit is dead.’ And Solomon in Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us what happens at death: ‘The dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.’
Simply: death is experienced as separation. Spiritual death is separation from God, and physical death is separation of spirit from body.
Ever since the Fall (with the exception of Jesus) everyone born physically into this world is born spiritually dead—spiritually separated from God. And that is why we must be born of the Spirit to have eternal life.
‘For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive’ (1 Corinthians 15:22). ‘For the consequences of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord’ (Romans 6:23).
So What does it mean to have eternal life?
Jesus in a prayer to the Father put it this way: ‘And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent’ (John 17:3).
Essentially, spiritual life is defined in terms of knowing, in terms of possessing an eternal relationship with the Most High God of the universe.
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After Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden tree something happened: their eyes were opened and they realized their nakedness—their decision to rebel against the will of God left them uncovered.
So they tried to cover their nakedness with fig leaves, Right? But this could never do. The fig leaves as coverings would quickly dry and shrivel up in no time.
God, however, clothed them with the skins of an animal—meaning there was at the very beginning of human time a blood sacrifice. There was a price to be paid for the transgression of Adam and Eve, and the killing of an innocent animal foreshadowed the mysterious and amazing way God would, in time, use to forgive and reconcile man back to Himself.
The skins of an animal worn over Adam and Eve’s naked bodies were constant reminders of how their covering involved the sacrifice of an innocent animal. The clothing of sacrifice itself was a sign of God’s future provision in Christ.
It may be interesting to note that the Hebrew word for atonement—kaphar—means ‘to cover, to cover over.’
Because of what Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross, our sins are covered, we are clothed in His righteousness, and we are now at-one again with God. ‘For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God’ (2 Cor 5:21).
We refer to this transaction on the cross as our substitutionary atonement.
Here’s the gist of our English word atonement: what was once separated by death is now in a state of AT-ONE-MENT.
To be AT-ONE is to be WHOLE in the truest sense of SHALOM
Amen
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Here (from Ps. 17:15) is how David ends one of his prayers:
As for me
in righteousness
I will behold Your face,
I will be satisfied
when I awake in Your likeness.
This is also my prayer of identity and desire to the One whose I am.
. .
(( anxious to hear how Bro. Lee’s weekend went ))
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Praise God saints, Had a beautiful time watching my son run at the Pomona (College track meet in Claremont), It was my first time ever seeing him run. He was so happy that I seen him run he got to excited and he pulled his hamstring. He’s looking forward to his conference meet in two weeks. ( I’ll be there). Well I tried to read all of what your were talking about, it is too deep for me. However I will read it again. Made it home safe, Thank you Jesus. Thank you monax for your comments. Love brother Lee.
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glad to hear of your beautiful time, Lee.
i used to run. . never pulled a hamstring, though. . what does this mean? will your son be able to compete in the conference meet in two weeks?
David
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what are his events?
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granted, Lee, the discussion of trauma based dissociation is both difficult and deep—not a conversation for most people.
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Monax, Amos, Gail, All,
Don’t know if it will speak to anyone other than myself, but I have for several days been chewing a bit on how Paul, in 2 Cor 1:8-9, wrote to his friends at Corinth about trouble, and being pressed out of measure and above strength, and of DESPAIRING even of life. And then he says “We had the sentence of death IN OURSELVES.” (ESV omits the “in ourselves,” but it is right there in KJV, and also in the Greek.) What does Paul mean by despairing of life and having “the sentence of death IN OURSELVES?” Prompted by N.T. Wright, I suspect that Paul himself had suffered a mental breakdown, that he had descended into a black depression beyond mere the anxiety that came from an expectation of physical death. I strongly suspect that, as Paul was writing these things, he was emerging from his own private shadow of the valley of death, his own dark night of the soul. Even so, Paul’s experience maybe flowed more from mere physical circumstances as opposed to the kinds of personal, emotional, spiritual, trauma described in these comments.
Now, please bear with me while I depart a good bit from what the theologians tell us. In the moments before his death Jesus cried out, anguished at His separation from His Father. However, I have come to believe that Jesus’ Separation from His Father (and ours) actually took place in Gethsemane. I believe that it was in Gethsemane that He took our sins upon Himself, that this is when He became separated from the Father, and that this, therefore, is when he effectively died for our sins. How else can the sweating of blood be explained? Jesus was no coward sweating blood from mere fear of crucifixion. I believe he suffered the trials, the mocking, the rejection, the humiliation, the entire Passion and crucifixion in utter separation from His Father and ours.
Here is what I am getting at: I believe that those of you who have suffered the kinds of trials and traumas and interpersonal separations and internal separations/dissociations and all the rest as described in these comments have more nearly shared in the death of Jesus in Gethsemane (or wherever it actually took place) than in the traumas of Paul. Indeed, it may be that I am too quick to say that Paul, like you, knew the valley of the shadow of death or the dark night of the soul.
Inasmuch as I have not been where some of you have been and still are are, I fear that my words are but spewing gravel. I know that I haven’t a clue. Yet, maybe there is comfort in being reminded of what you already know: that Jesus Himself shared, and I believe still does share, in your suffering. Nay, I see that you know His comfort firsthand. How else to explain how each of you knows so well how to comfort unless it be that you comfort with the comfort with which you have been comforted by Him? I stand in awe. You have more than once forced my tears to well up.
Jesus weeps. Indeed.
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Norris,
I committed a great blunder by failing to name you specifically in the greeting in my previous comment. I am sorry. You too have suffered, although you have not gone into detail in describing the pain. My prayer is that He will protect you from pain unless and until He knows that the time has come. I think that I see that it is your time to celebrate, though of course you would know better than I what He holds for you in these days.
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There are some special people who haven’t experienced some of life’s biggest traumas, yet have an amazing capacity to care, to want to understand, and to support. You are one of those rare people, Gary. I’ve seen Craig Vick do the same here. That is a gift. Thank you, Gary.
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Julie Anne,
Thank you for your words of encouragement.
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Yes monax, He will run in the next two weeks. His main event is the 100 yard dash also he runs the 200 yard sprint. I have some opinion on the matter, however I’m trying to get a better grasp on what’s being said. All my thoughts are what the scripture has to say about it. As Gary W. expressed paul may have been in the same shoes, however we find in later scripture he didn’t remain there. Through the Spirit of God he conquered and move on. What a lot of people didn’t understand about paul was he had to abandon all what he knew before in Christ. Therefore becoming born again, he also was a little child. He had to learn faith, he had to experience trails and tribulations, so that he could mature in his faith. When paul experience the thing he did the Spirit of God was right there to comfort and teach him how to apply it in his life for the good. In real estate it’s one word ” location, location, location. The bible also has one word ” application, application, application. It’s what we learn and how we apply it to our everyday lives. That others may use it are grow by it. I know. I missed the point.
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Gary wrote: In the moments before his death Jesus cried out, anguished at His separation from His Father. However, I have come to believe that Jesus’ Separation from His Father (and ours) actually took place in Gethsemane. I believe that it was in Gethsemane that He took our sins upon Himself, that this is when He became separated from the Father, and that this, therefore, is when he effectively died for our sins. How else can the sweating of blood be explained? Jesus was no coward sweating blood from mere fear of crucifixion. I believe he suffered the trials, the mocking, the rejection, the humiliation, the entire Passion and crucifixion in utter separation from His Father and ours.
i’ve never considered this! wow, i’ve got to process this for a time.
thank you, Gary. good stuff! wow.
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the sweating of blood could have been in anticipation of his separation (that’s how i’ve understood it). . but i’m processing
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good word, Lee.
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Gary W, With one eye on the Masters and just scanning your words, after my hubby & I get dinner, I want to take time to ponder before I respond- but now am cheering for the Aussie through tears. Bless you.
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yeah, i’m watching the Masters… i’m wanting the Aussie to take it!
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UNBELIEVABLE! Adam Scott
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going to dinner- but Monax- can you believe that playoff! YES!
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First, I wish I would had more time to respond to today. I feel like I missed church here, well-what church should be when the body comes together, one with a psalm, another with a spiritual melody…( I know I am misquoting Eph) but the words that have been shared here are music to my heart. Yet, I feel I am late to the party.
O, Monax, Norris, GaryW, Julie Anne, Amos & All you guys are so freakin amazing…
I guess where I will start is with Gary W. comment:
“What does Paul mean by despairing of life and having “the sentence of death IN OURSELVES?” Prompted by N.T. Wright, I suspect that Paul himself had suffered a mental breakdown, that he had descended into a black depression beyond mere the anxiety that came from an expectation of physical death. I strongly suspect that, as Paul was writing these things, he was emerging from his own private shadow of the valley of death, his own dark night of the soul.”
What you write here Gary… for lack of a better word, is mind blowing, for me. I have never heard such a thing. But, I was indoctrinated by the happy, clappy, be perfect, and always be victorious in Jesus, shape up or ship club (though I have spent enough time in the desert to know now the very word victory does imply there was a battle)
How comforting or reassuring it would have been to have heard something like this when I was in the club… Not because I am glad that the great Apostle Paul suffered such sorrow, but because most Christians that I associated with in the past, had answers, hadn’t succumbed to depression, didn’t have any anger, never struggled with doubt, had plenty of joy, and a had a direct line to God and knew what He wanted to say to me through them. ugh.
My heart was broke by Christians who were, well frankly, mean spirited. They were so much better than I was at keeping all the rules. And though I had an other worldly conversion at 28 years old where Christ or maybe I should say His presence just showed up & loved on me for a few weeks. (Not long after I attempted to take my life)
I put that precious memory behind me, because I had now been taught the bible, and His love was to be earned, according to my behavior, my testimony, by how much I served in the church, how much I gave in tithes, prayed & on & on. I bet you guys know what I am saying…
I left the church at 48 years old, dead to my first love, for many reasons, but I was pretty much convinced that God had had it with me because of all my struggles.
There is agony from life, but the agony of feeling rejected by Jesus was a dark night in my soul for years.
So, so sorry guys, if I went on too much about myself… I am just bowled over to learn that Paul possibly had a dark night, or breakdown… perhaps I am in good company- aye?
I need to get to sleep now. I have a V.I.P. coming early in the morning. She is 2 years old, my grandchild, a perfect gift from above to this grandma’s heart.
Again, I hope I didn’t go off to much here, don’t want to be a broken record…
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“Inasmuch as I have not been where some of you have been and still are are, I fear that my words are but spewing gravel. I know that I haven’t a clue. Yet, maybe there is comfort in being reminded of what you already know: that Jesus Himself shared, and I believe still does share, in your suffering.
O, but Gary, You do have a clue, and your compassionate insight or revelation, is anything but gravel… I echo Julie’s words… Thank-You, you have given me much to consider.
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Gail, I think I may need to issue posting rules like this one: no apologizing for posting comments about yourself. That is what this place is for. When I read your story, I automatically see if I can relate with your experience. That is how we connect. So….if you don’t tell your story, we won’t know that we connect. 🙂
Have fun with your grandchild!
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You, Julie, are a astute gatekeeper for us/me….
Hopefully I will grow in the grace & knowledge of our Lord Jesus… I believe in sharing from the heart, HOWEVER, I don’t want to be a victim or a narcissist by always bringing the conversation back to my story…
Gary W’s comment just blew me away… As, did, a few others. I know I sift all this through my own lens, perhaps that is where I need to be for now.
Nonetheless, I appreciate the freedom, love & grace you offer here. xo
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monax
WOW – Like much you’ve wriiten @ APRIL 14, 2013 @ 11:04 AM…
So much to comment on – So little space, time. 😉
Hmmm? Never thought about this one – But – I like this alot. 😉
“we might also consider the cross of Christ as both a tree of life and a tree of death.”
Yes – “‘in dying you will die.” – But never saw it as TWO deaths – good stuff – Thanks.
Yes – “Your sins have separated you from your God.” – Death – Spiritual Seperation.
Yes – “even so in Christ all shall be made alive” – A free gift.
Yes – “spiritual life is defined in terms of knowing, …an eternal relationship. – Jesus.
————
Question – you write – “Ever since the Fall.” – Which is a “Common” “Tradition.”
But – In the Bible – How do “WE” know there was a “Fall?” Who taught “US” that?
Does the Bible say Adam and Eve “Fell?” Or, had a “Fall?” “Fall” from what?
Or, is this those Pesky “Doctrines” and “Traditions of Man?” “WE” are warned about?
And – In case you’re wondering – When I capitalize “US” and “WE” – I’m thinking – the Body of Christ – the Church – the Ekklesia – the Called Out Ones – You – Me – ALL who have put their faith in Jesus – “WE.”
Because “WE” is one in Christ. 🙂
————
Jesus said…
“the words” that I speak are Spirit and they are Life…
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