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Calvary Chapel is a “franchise” of churches with over 1,500 churches founded by Pastor Chuck Smith. There is no hierarchy structure in place to hold pastors accountable if they behave like bullies or abuse their authority. In light of the upcoming hearing March 4/5, 2013, I want to highlight personal stories.
Please be sure to read these posts for further information on this case. Tina’s story is only one of countless stories. Other stories are of alleged money corruption, alleged physical and sexual abuse.
More articles can be found in these posts:
#WhoWouldJesusSue: Media FAQs and Resources
#WhoWouldJesusSue: Breaking News Advisory – Press Release #1
In August of 2012, I visited Calvary Chapel Abuse blog after noticing hits on my blog from that site (Huge legal victory for Free Speech and Church Abuse bloggers). After reading Alex’s story, I reached out to him, encouraging him as he was hearing rumblings of the possibility that his father might sue him.
Weeks later, Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier’s attorneys issued a press release acknowledging their intentions to file a defamation lawsuit. One person named as defendant on the press release was Tina Jenkins. In September of 2012, Tina contacted me. We exchanged several e-mails and I asked if she could tell me her story for publication on my blog. She agreed and started working on her story.
Eventually, Bob and Gayle Grenier did file a lawsuit against their step-son/son and former church member, Tim Taylor; however, Tina’s name was absent from the lawsuit. Of course that was a huge relief to Tina, but she said I could still tell her story. She was strongly connected to the situation and wanted something to be done about the problems she saw at Calvary Chapel Visalia. I’ve been saving her story all this time. Tina had been sharing bits and pieces of her story on the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog, but here it is in its entirety. It is a bold and brave step to speak out against an abuser. Thank you, Tina. Your voice is one of many who has suffered this kind of treatment from a pastor.
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O Lord, who may abide in Your tent?
Who may dwell on Your holy hill?
2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,
And speaks truth in his heart.
3 He does not slander with his tongue,
Nor does evil to his neighbor,
Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 In whose eyes a reprobate is despised,
But who honors those who fear the Lord;
He swears to his own hurt and does not change;
5 He does not put out his money at interest,
Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things will never be shaken.
Psalm 15
The following is Tina’s story, in her own words, reflecting her thoughts and opinions of her experiences at Calvary Chapel Visalia under Pastor Bob Grenier.
Tina’s Calvary Chapel Visalia Story
September 28, 2012
Written by Tina Jenkins
I started attending Calvary Chapel Visalia in the fall of 1988. What appealed to me at that time was the very relaxed style, the jeans, shorts and flip-flops. I was born Catholic and married a man who was Methodist, so we had to find a church we both agreed upon. I had a wonderful friend who attended CCV at the time and she encouraged me to come check it out.
The first year or so, I volunteered in the Children’s Ministry where I taught third and fourth grade. It was there I met Paul Grenier, he was in my class. Those were good memories for me. Paul was both smart and funny. He always held a special place in my heart along with a handful of other students. I was newly married with no kids of my own, probably about 21 or 22.
As a new Christian, I was eager to serve and learn. The first interesting thing I remember was, the name changed to Immanuel Christian Fellowship. If my memory serves me right, Bob told the congregation it was so he could teach freely. I never questioned it, I trusted Bob. I also noticed during that time, that many really good people left. I was too young to question anything, I loved this new church I found. I trusted Bob and had no idea he had a sinister side to him. Knowing what I do now, I wish I would have left like the rest of them.
Years, had gone by and I had four children and I was busy with them. I only attended church and was not involved. As the kids began to get a little older around 2002, I was approached by a pastor on staff and asked if I would be interested in the Children’s Ministry. That was something I had never considered and didn’t think I could run three services. After some thought, I decided that I would give it a try. I loved it! Working with the children and awesome teachers that we had, blessed me so much!
I served with my whole heart as unto the Lord. I even set my family aside many times to serve, which I shouldn’t have. I did notice from time to time there was an over emphasis on the building, café and church grounds at the expense of the people. The children’s ministry and the youth ministry struggled while the main sanctuary and anything that had to do with the adults was deluxe. It made my heart ache. But I did what I could to make the children’s ministry the best it could be.
During that time Bob hired a good friend of mine who worked hard, from sun up to sun down. I never and I mean never saw him sitting around being lazy. This man was a brand new believer and was eager to serve the Lord. Bob capitalized on that and began to work him relentlessly. It was almost disgusting the way that Bob had this gentleman cater to him, like Bob was the president and he was his slave. But this guy loved Bob and would have done anything for him. Something happened that Bob decided to let him go. Bob said that he wasn’t performing his job. Ok that’s fine, but there are ways to let people go especially in the church. I believe that it should have been handled in a way that didn’t crush his spirit. When he was let go, I was very disturbed by it because I knew he did work hard and I couldn’t understand it.
Something about this whole situation didn’t make sense. When it was announced in a staff meeting, they asked if everyone was OK with that or something to that manner. I remember saying, “No.” As I can recall, I was the only one that had anything to really say. Everyone was just quiet. I looked around and thought what is wrong with you people, you’re all ok with it? (Now I know why they were silent, they knew Bob better than I did apparently.) I left that meeting shaking my head, but I didn’t know that I would be continually harassed by Bob from that point on. He was always asking me how I was doing and not in a concerned way, more like trying to find out what side of the fence I was on. One afternoon while I was working in one of the classrooms, the church secretary came in and said, “Bob wants to talk to you.” I told her that I didn’t want to talk to him. She left and then came back and said, “Right now.” At this point I was crying and I walked out to the hallway and Bob and Greg Dowds quickly rushed me to Bob’s back office behind the church where no one would be. Bob sat me down and began to try to explain why he had fired this guy. I just looked at him, finally he got frustrated and began to proceed to raise his voice at me telling me how lazy and blah, blah, blah my friend was. After he vented his anger out, he then said, “And if you repeat that, then you can leave to!” I was in shock! I looked over at Greg who stared at the floor and didn’t even make eye contact and I just thought this guy isn’t who I thought he was at all.
He can’t kick me out of the church? Can he? This man isn’t a pastor at all, he just basically told me to hit the door if I repeated what HE just vomited all over me. It was at that instance that I knew there was something wrong Bob. He was now trying to bully me into submission. I felt such a demonic feeling that it made me sick to my stomach. I went home that night and I thought how could this be… the church that I loved so much and raised my kids in and now I’m being bullied around by my pastor? I really couldn’t wrap my mind around it. I felt as if my soul was molested. Greg Dowds called me that night to tell me what a wonderful person I was and how much I did for the children’s ministry. I think it was Bob’s way of doing a little damage control. There was never an apology from Bob.
Many might wonder why I stayed after that. It was very complicated in my mind. My children were born and raised in this church and this was our social life. I also loved the people there like family and I didn’t want to “disturb the church.” So I decided to stay which continued the abuse.
Anyway, I stayed and kept my mouth shut so my children would not have to leave the church they loved. Shortly after that meeting with Bob and Greg, I went into pastor Jim’s office and told him that I never wanted to be left alone with Bob again and if he could please be present if Bob ever needed to talk to me. Jim’s words were something like, “Did he say something to you?” I just shook my head no because I didn’t want to disclose what Bob had said and risk being kicked out of the church. I continued to serve as the Children’s Ministry Director but I had a plan to get out of leadership quietly. I was not going to be a part of a corrupt leadership. The weeks following this harassment I just about had a nervous break down. I tried to hide the pain but it was showing and the people who knew me began to ask if I was ok. I just shook my head “no” but I didn’t say a word. There is nothing worse than seeing the man who is bullying you around with intimidating stares, and a threat hanging over your head, then speak about the love of God from the pulpit. It was the most disturbing thing in the world. Being the type of person who wears my emotions on my sleeve, my face showed the grief I was feeling. I was told that I couldn’t go around looking like that and I needed to basically plaster a smile on. This was even more abuse and every time I pulled up at the church I would just start shaking and crying. I finally went in and told Assistant Pastor Jim that I couldn’t work like this anymore. I had to step out of the ministry.
Just about the time I stepped out of ministry, they hired a new pastor for the youth. He was a breath of fresh air and had a genuine love for God and the youth. He asked me if I would help in the youth department and I told him I would assist but I wouldn’t get back into a position where I was being paid. I didn’t want to be a part of leadership there, I saw the arrogance and mean spirit of Bob firsthand. Well as I helped in the youth, I ended up loving it as well. I was still very gun-shy and tried to keep my distance. I don’t know exactly what happened but Bob let him go too. I venture to say because he wasn’t a yes man. He would speak up when he needed to and that is just not acceptable to Bob. Bob runs the show with an iron fist. He basically told him on a Wednesday night that he was to perform worship and someone else would teach. I was called aside and told that he quit to pursue his music career. My first thought was, “What?” Then I thought, “I know him and he wouldn’t just leave the kids he loves, that’s not like him.” The look on his face that night was hurt beyond measure and I knew something was wrong. It all came back to me again, how they treated my friend a year prior and how Bob bullied me around and I thought I’m not going through this again.
Because this youth pastor was let go so suddenly, we decided to have a going away party for him at my friend Deanna house. We invited the youth group and anyone else who wanted to say good-bye and good luck. After that evening, it was decided that we would start a Bible study there and he could lead it. Anyone was invited to come, even those who didn’t attend Calvary Chapel. My husband and I intended to purchase Deanna’s home and continue to have the study. Pastor Mike called me to ask me how the move was going and I told him fine. He then proceeded to ask me if I was going to continue having that Bible study in my home after I bought the house and I said, “Yes, is that a problem?” His reply was, “Well…not for me.” I knew exactly who had the problem with that, the man who needs to control everything. It was then that I decided to leave. I thought to myself, I will never go to a church that feels they have the authority to tell me I cannot have a Bible study in my home. Prior to that call from Mike, Bob glared at me in the foyer of the church with his arms folded. My husband walked right up to him and said, “Hi Bob how are you this morning?” Later Russ said, “Wow did you see him staring you down?” I said I was aware he was trying to intimidate me into submission again. He continued to pick apart the Bible study in my home until everyone finally quit coming. In my opinion, he is relentless and ruthless.
I first stayed because I didn’t want to remove my children from the church they loved and then I left so Bob could never harm my children spiritually. I had suffered enough under his leadership and in the end my children were indeed effected by all of this….they should have been able to have a wonderful church to attend all their lives, with wonderful memories and now all they have is the memories of a pastor who bullied around their mother. We attend church now but it is very few and far between and my children just sit with us and they don’t get involved and neither do I. My heart and soul are still damaged.
After I left, I began to wonder about a few things…
Why was the name changed from CCV to Immanual Christian Fellowship?
Why did all those good people leave around this time?
What was Glick going to bring forward to the church?
How come I never saw a church budget the entire time I was there? Didn’t even know there was such a thing until after I left and noticed other churches were completely transparent with the financial records.
Where is all the tithe money going exactly?
Why wasn’t it ever made known who the board was? I guess it wouldn’t have mattered anyway if they really weren’t able to make a difference if you had a complaint.
Who actually owns that church property? Who is on the deed?
Then the blogs began to roll and new info was coming out….what happened to the Grenier boys? Paul? It was then I knew I needed to take a stand to give these boys some credibility to their accusations. After experiencing what I had personally, I could see those things happening to them.
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In addition to sharing with me her personal story, Tina also sent me a copy of the letter her family sent to Pastor Bob Grenier saying they would no longer be attending the church. Here it is:
Sent May 11, 2007 at 8:57 am
Dear Pastor Bob,
This email is to inform you that we will no longer be attending Calvary Chapel Visalia for the following reasons:
I believe it is my duty to you, and the wonderful people of Calvary Chapel, to speak the truth in love. I have prayed for you that love and compassion would fill your heart, and I will continue to pray for you and the Body of Christ that God has placed in your care.
I would first like to say that back in 1988, I was saved under your ministry, and my husband shortly afterward. We have raised 4 wonderful children in the Lord, under the teachings and leadership of those at Calvary Chapel. We have also built many deep and loving relationships with the members of the body, as we consider them family. I appreciate all of the wonderful things that you have done for Calvary Chapel and the community as a whole. Your work as a police chaplain, the starting of Reaching Youth, the starting of a Community Prayer, all of which God has blessed, and may more I’m sure.
However over the past 5 or 6 years, while I was in leadership, I have observed some things that have broken my heart. One of which is the lack of love and compassion from you as the senior pastor. In the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13:1 says, “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.” I will tell you with a sincere heart, that you are one of the best Bible teachers I have heard and because of this I would consider myself to be well grounded. I believe it is God’s will that you represent Him correctly to the Body of Christ, that is in your care, not only in word but actions (with compassion and love). As you know, our actions speak louder than our words. As a senior pastor the love & compassion for his flock should be a given and should be overflowing.
I have watched and seen many in leadership just disappear. I have also observed that the church is run by fear and intimidation. It appears that our church is run like a corporate business, with you as the CEO, rather than a shepherd taking tender care of the flock. I learned very quickly not to do or say anything that might upset you out of fear, not respect. While at a staff meeting you mentioned, “This is not a country club and I know a pastor that fired his whole staff and replaced them.” This type of statement is very offensive, shows no love nor appreciation, and would offend those on a construction site, let alone the house of God. Another thing I guess I just never got over was when I was taken to the back room and where you shared your disgruntled feelings toward someone I hold dear to my heart and then told me if I repeated it to him than I can also leave. That blew me away and needless to say showed me your heart. Just to make you aware, XXXX got saved at Calvary and was a new believer when you placed him in a position of leadership. He loved and respected you and as far a I could see would have done anything for you, even given his life. You in your wisdom, if you weren’t pleased with his service, could have let him go in a way that would have spared his heart. Since he left, he has questioned his faith and really has not found another church family. If things were handled the way Jesus would handle them, then he would still be attending Calvary.
I know that you have a deep relationship with God, but intense stares of disapproval in the foyer because of a Bible study, that by your standard, is not “Calvary ordained”, does not show God’s love. This Bible study is for adults as well as children to hear the Word of God and there have been many people who do not even attend church, come and hear the Word. It wasn’t meant to cause waves, nor was it meant to be Calvary ordained. It was meant to be “God ordained”. It’s just good Christian people getting together for the Word, worship and fellowship. Pastor XXXX has a gift from God as you well know, otherwise you wouldn’t have hired him. Please don’t let your sense of having to be in control, and pride hinder the work of God. Just as a sub note, I lead a Bible study with my parents that is not “Calvary ordained ” and my parents have grown in the Lord and my mom is now saved. I’ve seen a lot of half-truths being spoken to the flock and knew my head was on the chopping block for extending to Pastor XXXX our future home for a Bible study.
In addition, it is apparent to all that visit our facility, that it is beautiful and well maintained. But there is an overemphasis on this, while other ministries suffer financially. The youth and children’s ministry should always be above the facility, since they are the future church. Unfortunately, having worked in the children’s ministry I know they come last. Honestly, we could do without all of the elaborate things we have obtained. I personally would rather sit on a lawn chair in the park and hear the Word preached by a loving pastor, than sit in a cathedral with one who lacks love and compassion. Where did this all go wrong?
I really believe the Lord is grieved. Yes, we should love and respect our pastor as I know the Word says, but you have an obligation to the Lord not to abuse the flock. We are not disposable, we are the Body of Christ. Perhaps you have forgotten this is not your church, it’s God’s and placed in your care. I want it to be known that I love everyone at Calvary but I just can’t stay where I don’t feel the love from you and I refuse to be intimidated and made to feel uneasy when I go to church. If someone asked me why I left, I’ll say I needed a loving and compassionate pastor. You may share this email with anyone you see fit. I have emailed this to Pastor Mike and Pastor Jim so as to keep the record straight. No response is necessary, I have nothing more to say. Except “Love the flock”.
Respectfully,
The Jenkins Family
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Brother Lee, It is not the fact that you are a convicted thief that I hold against you. You have done your time behind bars, and continue to do time on parole. What I would hold you accountable for is the fact the mere days after you are paroled you dare to come on this blog to lecture and purport to teach. You claim to have been transformed by our Lord, and Halleluiah to that! But you reject the sound advice of loving hearts that would not see you fall into a trap. You call yourself a pastor, but apparently would only teach, not serve. No, if you wish to teach, if you wish for me, at least, to pay attention to you, it will be necessary for you to prove by your actions that you know how to care for Jesus’ children–and not just preach at them. Indeed, you must now earn credibility by actually DEMONSTRATING that you are living a transformed life, and it will most likely take years, not mere days, to do so. To my mind your burden is made heavier by the disclosure that you called yourself a pastor at the time of your crime. My initial impression was that you had become a Christian and pastor while incarcerated. That seemed to me to be in your favor. Frankly, where you had been a pastor at the time of your offense, I am not so ready to rely on your present claims to the title.
As for what I do for a living, I have mentioned it a couple times on this blog when I deemed it useful by way of explaining whence I had derived a particular insight. If you pay attention I may do it again.
By the way, In the state I live in, I do not think you would have received 17 years on a first offense, even for stealing something that was likely worth several thousand dollars. Is it possible that your theft of a computer was not your first offense? I ask only because I suspect you have not been completely up front with us, and I would like to give you a chance to clarify the matter.
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Hello Gary, So I see now you are the speaker for this blog. As I said before I was no saint. However now I’m under the blood of Christ, regardless of how you feel about it. As for as demonstrating you don’t know me. You don’t have a clue about what I’m doing for God through His Spirit. One thing for sure I don’t stand in judgement of you are any body else. When I said what is your sin. I was not speaking of what you do for a living, I meant are you sinless, because Christ came for sinners, not the righteous. Gary I am not on parole at all for your information. I can go as I please, because that is how Christ does it. Gary whoever you are go and find out how to love and not stand in judgement and hide behind this screen. Go read 1Cor 13- 1-8 , because your not DEMONSTRATING that. Love Norris Lee a CHRISTIAN.
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Norris – What do you mean that Gary is the speaker for this blog? You have the floor just as much as he.
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In his 10:17 p.m. post of 4/4, Norris Lee says “I was just paroled from state prison.” In his most recent post he says, “Gary I am not on parole at all for your information.” Huh?
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Information regarding the filing of various federal lawsuits by one Norris Lee, California Prisoner, can be found here:
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/caedce/1:2002cv05037/9701/139/
It appears the suits were filed against various government officials, although I have not reviewed the available documents in sufficient detail to say for sure.
Norris, were these lawsuits filed by you? Should we be concerned that you are just one more pastor who may file a lawsuit against people who say things you don’t like?
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Well I see you are a cyber bully Gary W. I’m in no way intimidated by you. I’ve spoken nothing but the truth on this blog. So you gather information so you can use it against people, show me in scripture where that’s applicable. Gary finds someone else to play with. If you want to talk scripture I will, if you want to know more about me just ask. I have nothing to hide. Just because you know how to use the computer does not bring me to my knees. I was discharged from prison on 3-30-13. You should have known that with your mouse. My cdc# was k-22168. Just ask Gary, just ask. With that being said who are you and what are you hiding.if you want I will give you my home number just e-mail at my e-mail address. Love brother Lee.
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Norris, since you invite me to ask if there is more I want to know about you, I will repeat a question you have left unanswered. Is my suspicion correct that your conviction for stealing a computer was not a first offense? If there were other offenses, what and when were they? And, more to the point, were you acting as a pastor when these other offenses, if any, were committed? You come here lecturing and teaching. You would have us accept you as one who is qualified to act as a pastor, as someone, even, that we ought to pay attention to and be taught by.
A bishop must be above reproach. 1 Tim. 3:2. I think I am entitled to inquire into your background so that I can test your current maturity and qualifications to undertake what you are attempting to do in this blog space. “. . . [T]est everything; hold fast what is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21, ESV). I applaud you for your forthrightness in answering (most) of my questions. However, if you cannot see the need to satisfy legitimate concerns, given your background, methinks we must needs be wary.
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Norris Lee
You write…
“I do love to share and learn the word of God.”
That is why I ask you these difficult questions for those who think they are pastors. So you can go to Jesus, The Word of God, and the Bible, to compare what they’ve been taught with what is in the Bible.
Isn’t the Bible our standard?
And – You still did NOT answer the questions asked. With scripture verses. 😉
You kinda tried, you started to, but left it a little short. I’ll try to be a little more clear.
You write…
“ Is there a title of pastor, leader or reverend in the bible.
Yes, a resounding Yes for Pastor,”
But – Where is this “Title” pastor? – In the Bible?
“So we see that Christ is the Head of the church, however He has place men
to lead the church in the capacity of pastors.”
And – Where is this in the Bible? Pastors leading churches?
If your statements are accurate? If your statements reflect what is in the Bible?
Then you should be able *To Name* at least one of His Disciples who had the “Title” pastor and was leading a church. And the Bible verses that show that – Yes?
So I’ll re-state the questions that, in my experience, most who want to be known as pastors, tend to “Ignore” or “Twist” so they can hold on to their – Power – Profit – Prestige. See, for me, “Titles” are ALL about – Power. Those with the “Titles” have – The Power. The Power – to control and manipulate. And we know from experience that “Power Corrupts” even the best intentioned humans.
In the Bible – The only one I can find, called Shepherd, or has that “Title” – Is Jesus. 😉
But – I cudda missed it.
So I’m asking for help. Giving you a chance “to share and learn the word of God.”
But – I’m NO longer interested in the opinions of men – the Commandments of Men – the Doctrines of Men – or the “Traditions of Men” – That I was taught in “the Corrupt Religious System” run by “Pastors who Abuse” – “Pastors addicted to Exerciing Authority.” I would like to be able to read the scripture verses for myself and ask Jesus what they mean for me.
So Norris – Please – From the Bible – chapter and verse…
1 – Please – name one of His Disciples who was called – pastor or shepherd.
2 – Please – name one of His Disciples who called them self – pastor. – Like you did.
3 – Please – name one of His Disciples who had the “Title” – pastor or shepherd.
4 – Please – name one of His Disciples who was Hired, or Fired as a pastor or shepherd.
5 – Please – name one congregation, one town, one church, “Led” by a pastor.
Norris – If NOT one of His Disciples, in the Bible, called them self pastor?
Why do you?
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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Norris Lee
You write…
“However why would it be qualification of said office
if that person does not exist. Bishop or Deacon.”
Norris – Have you ever wondered? Why?
Paul gives such tough qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9,
for Pastor/Elder/Overseer if NOT important? For something? For some purpose?
Can we dismiss them all? How many are NOT important?
Which ones are NOT important?
Norris – Do you meet ALL the qualifications for Pastor/Elder/Overseer???
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Hello Bro. Amos, The answer to your question is a resounding none. Why do I called myself a pastor, because it’s my calling. None of the disciples called themselves teachers, However the bible says there shall be teachers. None of them call themselves evangelists, however we have evangelist. So what’s the point? And I know you have a point. Can’t wait to hear it.
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Hello Gary W. I have had a busy day. However I will share some of my time with you. Gary you have not answered none of my question yet. Yet you want me to disclose all of my information which I have no problem doing, however you have to give me something to work with so I can let my mouse do some walking. No fun with you having all the information. If you want I will type my testimony later. God bless you Gary W.
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Norris, you specifically said to me, “if you want to know more about me just ask.” You expressed no conditions. I asked. You aren’t answering. It would be good if you would keep your word.
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Bro. Gary W. You have shown to be deceptive with your tactic when I dispense information to you. You have already used it in a negative way already. If what you want to do is smear my name because of my past. I don’t want to play that game. If your asking for legitimate reason, yes I have no problem with that. Love Bro. Lee
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Norris
Thank you for answering the five questions and your correct answer. You write…
“The answer to your question is a resounding none.”
Congratulations – I’ve NOT met many, who have the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend, who are willing to admit that the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend does NOT exist in the Bible. And – In the Bible, there is NOT one church “Led” by a pastor/leader/reverend.
You also answer another question I ask often…
“Norris – If NOT one of His Disciples, in the Bible, called them self pastor?
Why do you?”
And your answer…
“Why do I called myself a pastor, because it’s my calling.”
Which causes me to ask another question…
How do you know – “I call myself pastor, because it’s my calling.” When, in the Bible, NOT one of His Disciples was “called” to have the “Title” pastor, leading a church? Shouldn’t *your calling* be verified, at least once, in the Bible?
And I agree when you write…
“None of the disciples called themselves teachers,”
“None of them call themselves evangelists,”
Isn’t this a clue? We’re NOT to call attention to ourselves by taking “Titles?” Aren’t we supposed to be pointing folks to Jesus? – The “ONE” Shepherd? – The “ONE” Teacher? – The “ONE” Leader?
And NOT taking the “Name” of the Lord thy God in “Vain.” Ex 20:7
(Name = authority, character.) (Vain = idolatry, uselessness.)
NOT taking the name (authority, character) of the Lord in vain (idolatry, uselessness.)
And then you ask – “So what’s the point?”
Maybe you can ask Jesus “the Point?” Because- the Bible says in Jer 50:6 KJV
My people have been lost sheep – “Their shepherds” have led them astray.
Seems that’s what “Mere Fallible Human” shepherds do when they take the name (authority, character) of the Lord in vain (idolatry, uselessness.).
These humans, who take God’s name, Shepherd, in vain, lead God’s Sheep astray.
What is popular is not always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is not always popular.
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And – Norris Lee
You mention qualification for Bishop, Deacon @ – APRIL 6, 2013 @ 1:57 PM…
“However why would it be qualification of said office
if that person does not exist. Bishop or Deacon.”
Norris – Can you answer another question – Please…
Do you meet ALL the qualifications in, 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, for…
Pastor/Elder/Overseer???
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Hello Bro. Amos and God bless you. Yes I do positionally. However practically I’m striving every day to reach that goal (Heb 10:10-14). It. is because of Christ I can do all things in His name.
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Bro. Amos, I believe you’ve taken the word vain out of context when it applies to specific titles in the scripture. How do you explain (Eph 4:11) and it’s five (5) offices? The bible say if all the things that Jesus did or perform were written it would’nt have enough books in the world to contain them. So what’s your point when some things are omitted, such as you claim about the disciples not claiming any title or other names.
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Norris Lee
NOT sure I understand? Is that…
YES – You do meet ALL the qualifications?
Or, NO – You do NOT meet the qualifications?
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Norris Lee
Thanks for reminding me when you say – “I can do all things in His name.”
And I forgot theses verses – You’re probably correct when you say…
“The bible say if all the things that Jesus did or perform were written it wouldn’t have enough books in the world to contain them. So what’s your point **when some things are omitted,**”
I’ll have to go apologize to a friend of mine who I had a dis-agreement with the other day. We were talking about how His Disciples would speak and in one day 5,000 believed. And another day His Disciples spoke and 3,000 souls were added to them. And when he gave his answer – I just blew him off as someone who drank the kool-aide. Someone who was deceived and having delusions. I’m glad I didn’t tell him he was deceived and having delusions even though I was thinking it.
Well, I was wondering, and asked my friend…
“How did His Disciples draw such big crowds? – Just to hear about Jesus?”
And my friend said…
“Oh, they just did what Jesus did when he preached.”
I asked, “What was that?”
And my friend said…
“Well Jesus, when he wanted to get a crowd…
He would just stand there – And have a bunch of monkeys flying out of His ears…
He would have monkeys every where – And the word would spread…”
I questioned saying – “Jesus had monkeys flying out of His ears???”
And – His Disciples had monkeys flying out of their ears???”
I said – “That’s kind of hard for me to believe His Disciples did that.
Is that in the Bible???” His Disciples having monkeys flying out of their ears?”
And my friend said…
“The Disciples believed- they “can do all things in His name.”
But, I asked, “Where in the Bible does it say Jesus had monkeys flying out of His ears?
And my friend said…
““The bible say if all the things that Jesus did or perform were written it wouldn’t have enough books in the world to contain them. So what’s your point **when some things are omitted,**”
It’s kind of hard to argue with that – “Revelation” – It doesn’t have to be in the Bible. 😉
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Hello Bro. Amos, great point. However how does (eph 4:11) applies to your theory. Do you know about positional & progressive doctrine? One is when God has already completed His work in you (positional), the other is the one you work out daily (practical).
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Norris Lee
Hmmm? You write…
God has already completed His work in you (positional),
So, are you saying, when I ask you – Do you meet ALL the qualifications?
And you answer – “Yes I do positionally.”
That means that Today – You do NOT meet the qualifications? – Yes?
But – One day in the future – You will meet the qualifications?
Will that be in this Life? Or, will that be in the next life?
Or, Are you saying – “God has already completed His work in ALL of us (positional),
And now, we ALL, Every Believer, Qualifies to be a pastor/elder/overseer.
So, Now, we are ALL one in Christ, ALL are shepherds/pastors – ( Positionally)
ALL are Elders, ALL are Overseers, ALL are Teachers, ALL are leaders.
(Positionally)???
And, is any of this stuff? Anywhere, in the Bible?
When Paul tells Timothy or Titus to go and “Ordain Elders in every City”
“If any be blameless” – For a Bishop “Must Be” Blameless..
That Paul did NOT mean an Overseer had to be Blameless? – NOW?
When being ordained?
And, an overseer “Must Be” Blameless – really meant – For some future time?
So, which is it?
We ALL qualify to be pastor/elder/overseers? NOW? And we are ALL equal?
Or, Paul did NOT really mean – “For an Overseer Must Be Blameless?” Today?
It’s starting to smell like a lot of monkeys are starting to gather. 🙂
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Norris,
You may be positioned in Christ, but if you are wanting to be recognized as a pastor/elder/bishop, then I at least am going to be concerned about how much progress (i.e. progressive sanctification) you have attained in Christ. And frankly, I am having a lot of difficulty with the way your are refusing to come clean regarding the circumstances of your 17 year incarceration. Sure enough, I was correct to suspect that you were not sentenced to 17 years in prison solely for stealing a computer, per you statement. The penalty for grand theft in California is 1 year in the county jail, or else 16 months, 2 years, or 3 years in the state prison. At lest that’s what it says if you follow the links at this California law firm web site:
http://www.shouselaw.com/grand-theft.html
I may or may not be real concerned about what happened 17 years ago, depending on what, exactly it was. What I am definitely concerned about, however, is your PRESENT level of spiritual maturity, which I deem to require utmost honesty and forthrightness regarding the circumstances of your incarceration. In this regard it appears that we need to be concerned as of right now, today, this instant, that you made only a partial disclosure regarding the circumstances of your incarceration, and that you are refusing to provide further information when asked. Further, the fact that you appear to have spent the last years of your incarceration filing several lawsuits against various and sundry people does not help me to trust you, either with regard to your testimony or with regard to disclosing my identity to you.
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Hello Gary W. I have been forthright about who I am, with you. You have yet to disclose anything to me about you. Who are you? Where do you live? What is your e-mail address? Gary stop being a bully. I’m not scared of you if you want to dialect, then respond to some of my wishes, if not we don’t have to continue this conversation. Love in-Christ.
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Bro. Amos these qualification, can be counted for all christians. We are all called to be holy and sanctified. However the scriptures say are all Apostles, are all prophets,are all teacher…… (1cor.12:29-31) When I say positional, It’s what God has done through His Son, through the work of the cross. However sometimes we don’t look the part. (practically) After you got saved have you made a mistake? if, yes you are working out your salvation through sanctification. With God he see you as the finish product. I’m sure I’m speaking to the choir.
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You have defended and appear to have taken up with a pastor who is suing his own stepson. One of the allegations in that suit, as I understand it, is that the stepson is some sort of cyberbully. Now you persist in calling me a bully and cyberbully. You have sued others. I am concerned you are attempting to set me up for a lawsuit. I do not trust you. I agree with you on this one point: Your conversation with me is over.
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Who are you to be sued? Thank you Jesus for the end of this. signing off for life with you. (smile)
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Well that sure was interesting… Yikes. I was cheering for Gary & Amos. ( ;
So any guesses on who is going to win the final 2 tonight? paging Monex. Sorry, if it seems I am making light of this conversation. Whew, it sure was eye opening.
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hey there Sacred Gail. . i’ve been reading along. . actually, i understand where Norris is coming from. . he probably did a lot of pastoring in prison. . he didn’t need ordained by man to do this. . but i suspect he was gifted and called of God to do so. . i bet he had a lot of time to imbibe the Word of God in prison too. .
i had a lot of personal thoughts i would have liked to have shared, but i’ve been crushed with work and life issues. so i just followed this thread’s back and forth between our brothers via email updates.
well, i never thought Michigan would have gone to the big dance! of course, we’re backing the BLUE! but Louisville is favored by 4. i’m breaking a fast today around tip time. so i’m presently hungry . and can’t wait to watch some good basketball with my best girlfriend!
Gail, send me an email. . you can find my gmail via me gravatar profile. thnx, David
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oops… me gravatar doesn’t show up here. .
my gmail is discerningspiritualabuse
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Will do Monax!
One sad thing I felt while following this conversation was that Norris couldn’t hear all the voices here that cared for his soul by warning him that spiritual abusers exist.
I pray he doesn’t learn about it the hard way, i wouldn’t wish that heartbreak on anyone.
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Hello Gail and monax, I’m just disconnecting with Gary W. I’m still going to dialect with Bro. Amos, Gary was being unfair in all the questioning. I am an open book. I am a valid ordained minister. I have my certificate to show you. This started out by me saying, I would’nt have used this vehicle for that purpose. Then I was called a convicted thief and so on. I have no problem sharing who I am and what I stand for. No I did’nt imbibe the word of God in prison. lol
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Norris Lee, are you telling me you did not spend your time drinking from the Holy Scriptures? How did you sustain yourself? I am interested in your testimony.
I have a pastor friend here in Pittsburgh who spent some time in jail. I know a lot of brothers-in-Christ who when in prison filled their time with reading and studying Scripture.
And btw, your having a certificate to show that you’re a valid ordained minister makes you suspect in my book. No offense—but a piece of paper validates or qualifies no one for or from ministry. . but i do, nevertheless, recognize you as a Spirit-filled minister of Jesus Christ.
David
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Hello Bro. Monax (clever name) I was’nt putting stock in the paper work, it just says I put in the hours of much studying. When I said I was’nt imbibing in prison, I meant that’s is not where I started. Yes after doing seventeen years it is what sustained me. I don’t know what btw means. Right now I’m spending time with my family who waited for me those seventeen years. My plan is to give my wife the first year (she calls it my first ministry), then I hope to get into ministry full time. However I will witness every chance I get. Maybe tomorrow I will type my testimony so you can read it. As I told bro. Gary I will be an open book. I have nothing to hide. Love your brother in -Christ. I also am watching the game. Go cardinals
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Norris Lee- BTWt means: By the way, as a matter of internet speak or text lingo.
I asked you earlier in my long winded way the following: Did you read this?
“Dear Norris, Brother in Christ,
Forgive me, if I am making the following assumption: It seems to me that you haven’t tasted abusive church practices. You haven’t been shamed into submission, or had the bible used as a whip to beat you down. I had that experience, and it almost destroyed my precious & tender love for our Lord Jesus Christ. Without blogs such as SSB & TWW, that bring to the light evil that is going on in some churches, by naming some pastors who are wolves dressed as shepherds, without them, how can I understand that it wasn’t my fault that I didn’t measure up to the heavy load that they placed on my shoulders.”
I am glad you haven’t been abused by a church leader, because it messes big time with your Trust in the Lord. And for the record, God is using SSB on my behalf and as He sees fit. My heart is grateful for J.A. and the people who comment here. There is a lot of love, wisdom, & mercy that flows here.
If you don’t have the experience of being crushed & controlled by a church leader or a Pastor… Would you stop to consider that many of us have been abused by the so called shepherds of His flock?
And we need a safe place to tell, share & expose the works of darkness..
It isn’t gossip, or bitterness, I can only speak for myself, just trying to navigate through stormy seas. Do you understand?
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Hi Gail – Love your cyber name… 🙂
(Gail aka as Scared here. Done with being Scared)
And I appreciate your insight when you say…
“One sad thing I felt while following this conversation was that
Norris couldn’t hear all the voices here *that cared for his soul*
by warning him that spiritual abusers exist.
I pray he doesn’t learn about it the hard way,
I wouldn’t wish that heartbreak on anyone.”
Yes – I care for his soul – And ALL those who take a ”Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend NOT found in the Bible.
IMO – If that “Title” is NOT in the Bible – Then it is a – Commandment of Men, a Doctrine of men, a “Tradition of men” – that we are warned about in the Bible. And these folks are in bondage to a Tradition that makes VOID the Word of God. Mark 7:13. I know, I was there, I’m guilty as charged. 😦
Yup – The Traditions of Men in “Todays Religious System” are very powerful…
Powerful enough to make VOID the Word of God. 😉
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monax
Much agreement when you write…
“your *having a certificate* to show that you’re a *valid ordained minister* makes you *suspect* in my book. No offense—but a piece of paper validates or * qualifies no one* for or from ministry.”
Seems when someone is given a certificate from “Mere Fallible Humans” they now believe they are qualified. And use that certificate to prove to others they are qualified. As Norris has said -”I am a valid ordained minister. I have my certificate to show you.”
I see things a little differently now that I’ve left “Todays Religious System.” 😉
Seems today, when someone takes the “Title/Position” Pastor/Leader/Reverend…
That seemingly innocent “Title” comes with something – “A Little Bit Extra.”
Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Recognition – Reputation – etc…
ALL those things Jesus spoke against.
ALL those things that become “Idols” of the heart.
ALL those things “Highly esteemed among men – But…
……. an abomination in the sight of God. Luke KJV 16:15
In my experience – With Pastor/Leaders – And having been in Leadership shows me…
“Titles” become “Idols” ……………. (“Idols” of the heart – Ezek 14:1-11 KJV)
“Pastors” become “Masters” ……. ( A No, No, in Mat 23:10 KJV)
When the “Title” is an “Idol” God now speaks to you according to your “Idols.” 😦
And these “Idols,” carried in the pastors heart, are unseen to the natural eye, extremely difficult to lay down and walk away from. The – Power – Profit – Prestige, becomes an ADDICTION. And like any addiction – you never have enough – you always need more and more – Power to control – to satisfy the addiction. You think you’re in control, tell others you’re in control – but the addiction controls you. You’re in bondage to a “Tradition of Men,” an addiction – and a lie – and you do NOT know it.
Power corrupts – and absolute power – corrupts absolutely.
And – in my experience with “Todays Religious System.” This “power” corrupts ALL who attempt to wield this “power.” This “power” they think they have – to be a pastor – to rule over others – to be obeyed – to be someone special – to be someone important – to be a leader – is leading them to – Burnout – depression – hopelessness – discouragement – failure – and their families are effected as well…
This addiction to – Power – Profit – Prestige – is like other addictions – it destroys those who believe they can handle it. These addictions NOT only injures the pastor/leader/reverend – They also injure the Pastors family.
The statistics – for burned out pastors – say…
http://pastoralcareinc.com/WhyPastoralCare/Statistics.php
80% of pastors’ spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
70% of pastors constantly fight depression. (How does depression effect the Pastors family?)
When you believe the lie you start to die…
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Gary W
I mirror your concern for some of the inconsistent things that Norris has said. And his willingness to accept, and make excuses, for those things he has been taught by men, things that are NOT in the Bible. 😉
I’m still willing to give him the benefit of doubt – I do NOT hold his past against him, or anyones past. God’s mercies are new every morning – And we are brand new creations old things are passed away – ALL things become new. 😉
And most I’ve met, who assume the “Title” pastor/leader/reverend…
Do NOT start out wanting to steal the Honor and Glory that belongs only to Jesus…
They just do NOT refuse it when it comes… 😦
I am concerned when I ask Norris if he qualifies to be a pastor/elder/reverend and he does NOT have the ability to say – NO, I do NOT qualify today. He changes the subject to “positional-practical” stuff I’m familiar with. But, if that’s true about qualifying for pastor/elder/overseer? There is NO way for us to check out those who say they qualify. Because, now the Bible is NOT our standard – And now we have NO standard – And – We can just make up things as we go along.
I do NOT think that is a good idea. Those are some tuff qualifications. 😉
And, in my experience, most pastor/elder/overseers will “Ignore” and “Twist” those qualifications in order to obtain, and maintain, that position of – Power – profit – Prestige.
Most I’ve met are NOT being honest with themselves…
When it comes to those very difficult qualifications…
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Gary W
I’m in agreement when you write @ APRIL 6, 2013 @ 8:26 PM…
“A bishop must be above reproach. 1 Tim. 3:2. I think I am entitled to inquire into your background so that *I can test* your current maturity and qualifications to undertake what you are attempting to do in this blog space.”
Yes – Today I recommend – Every believer should, and has the right, to “test and check-out” those who call themselves pastor/elder/overseers to see if they really do qualify.
Maybe this will eliminate a some of the “Spirtual Abuse” that is rampant in the
501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporations, the IRS calls church.
1 John 4:1 KJV
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (Test) the spirits whether they are of God:
because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Thess 5:12 KJV
And we beseech you, brethren, to *know them* (know – to perceive, discern, discover.)
which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
And these are some tuff qualifications that ALL believers can become familiar with.
Titus 1:6-8 KJV – says it nicely.
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.*
That *must be* is the same Greek word as: …You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
*Must Be* – Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
*Must Be* – Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
Seems to be a small word – but very important. Yes? Is – Blameless – important?
1 – Blameless – Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
Blameless – Thayers – that cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
Blameless – Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.
1 Tim 3:2 ASV – The bishop therefore must be without reproach…
1 Tim 3:2 NIV – Now the overseer must be above reproach…
1 Tim 3:2 NLT – For an elder must be a man whose life cannot be spoken against.
How many “Elder/Overseers,” who honestly examine themselves,
seriously considering this one **qualification,** (*Must Be* **Blameless,**)
can see themselves as **Blameless,** without fault, above reproach,
and thus qualify to be an “elder/overseer?”
And if you can see yourself as **blameless:** Is that pride?
And no longer without fault? Oy Vey! 😉
Aren’t ALL the requirements important? Which one’s can we ignore?
I do NOT see these requirements as being “positional” – at all.
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.* – NOW. 😉
And – If they are NOT Blameless – Will they please remove themselves as Overseer…
And go do something else.
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Dear Gail, I receive what you have to say and I clearly understand your position. However we must grow from that. We can’t remain in that perpetual state. We move on. We still have to grow in-Christ and bear the fruit of the Spirit. Now that can be easier said than done. However Christ will help us grow. God revealed what He did for you to take action. Positive actions, The Holy Spirit will equip you to overcome this obstacle. Then you will be able to minister to others who are going through the same trial. (Cor 1:3-4). Yet I’m very sensitive to your plight. I have not called anybody out of their names. I have tried to remain consistent with my behavior. I look forward to befriending many folks on this blog. God bless you Gail. from your bro. In-Christ.
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Amos, i appreciate what you wrote to me. good stuff! thank you. .
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Bro. Amos I will respond to you soon, I must step out for a minute. Love your brother in-Christ
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Dear Norris,
“However we must grow from that. We can’t remain in that perpetual state. We move on. We still have to grow in-Christ and bear the fruit of the Spirit. Now that can be easier said than done.”
It is too bad that I can’t hear the tone in your voice nor can I see the compassion in your eyes as you admonish me. That is the tricky part about communicating via the internet.
When I first read what you were saying to me, it came across as a fix, like i need to hurry up and get over what happened. Though you did say easier said than done, & I appreciated you saying that.
Please understand that I have been corrected-fixed-yelled at- shamed by some, and by one who is now famous (in Focus on the Family circles) as a celebrity Christian leader. So, just, I know I am a little gun shy and I will not automatically trust you just because you say you are my brother in Christ who is a pastor.
Here is some good news. Jesus is moving me on. I am not trembling in my boots anymore for fear that I am going to get shamed or scolded into submission. How I went from being scared to using my real name, was finding places like Julie Anne’s blog, where I learned that it is good to bring to the light and it is not gossip or slander to name the abuse that so many leaders perpetuating against tender hearts, people who want to love & serve Jesus.
I spent fourteen years of my life in that prison of legalism, control, getting hammered with the law, O they would speak of grace, but believe me perfection was the standard. Gee, imagine that, Jesus, who said it is the sick who need a physician, not the healthy ones. Back then I thought I was entering a sinners hospital.
I might ruffle your pastors feathers a little, my sin sickness didn’t disappear the second I received Jesus into my heart. Heck no, I was 28 when I started my love affair with Jesus, I am 59 now, and I am still a sinner… O, those pesky sins the ones that lurk under the surface unaware, only to pop up when I seriously want to give the bird and I said a few choice words to the guy who almost crashed into me when I had my grand daughter in the car… Jesus kinda leveled the ground at the cross for self righteous folks by calling what goes on in the heart-murder, or what goes on when the eyes wander- perhaps you don’t have to struggle against your humanity- I am happy for you! That’s enough rambling…
Amos- Glad you like my cyber name- I loved what you e-mailed me!
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Hello Gail, I have heard you loud and clear. Yes we need to demonstrate compassion to the lost and the save alike. It seems to me that all pastor are worthless with an axe to grind. Did’nt Jesus say they would be some in wolves clothing. Let’s not mix up those who are endearing their live to the cross of Christ with a full heart. The men that are being describe on this blog seems to be false leaders, at no time are the men of God suppose to pillage, pilfer or destroy the flock and it’s a sign that they are false teacher.Sister Gail I hope I have demonstrated grace on this blog, I am a grace teacher, I believe that Jesus is everything to the believers. As time goes on I hope to demonstrate that in my ministry. That is why I want to be an open and honest book before this blog, and yes I do struggle and will until the day of Christ return. That is what grace is all about. He will keep in perfect peace those whose eyes are on Him. I shall return in a minute. Love your brother in-Christ Who happens to be a pastor.
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Gail,
Good words at 1:22, said with grace and love. Courage to you.
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Gail, My heart has been heavy today and reading your comment at 1:22 really blessed me. Thank you for being so transparent with your spiritual abuse journey. It is beautiful and it’s like I’m watching a flower starting out as a bud and then bloom.
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Amos,
As usual, what you say above, and not just to me, is well said. I especially like how you insist on holding the largely bought and paid for theologians to the Scripture they interpret but do not teach.
Here’s a little something I’ve been thinking about. When we see the words pastor, teacher, evangelist, apostle, prophet, elder, deacon, overseer in the Bible, maybe those words are just job descriptions. Like mechanic, secretary, garbage collector or truck driver. I have known a number of mechanics, but not a one of them has ever claimed to hold the office of mechanic. Nor have I ever known anybody who claimed to hold the offices of secretary, garbage collector or truck driver. These job descriptions don’t tend to get used as titles as with “pastor so and so.” Who ever addressed anybody as Mechanic Joe? Maybe it happens, but not in my part of the country.
And here’s something else. The world is organized on the principles of authority and power. Yet Jesus instructed his disciples that they were not to lord it over on others like the rulers of the Gentiles. So, on what principle is the Kingdom of God to operate? Could it be Love? Could it be on the same basis as the Love that does not insist on its own way? 1 Corinthians 13:5. Can it be that anybody who would use authority to impose their will is automatically disqualified from being recognized as a pastor?
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Aww, Thanks Julie Anne,
It really is something to feel spring blossoming inside of my heart. Your grace & strength along with many of the folks who share here have watered the dry soil in my soul. It almost seems to good to be true… It has been a long long time since I have felt accepted & cared about when I am in the company of Christians. This is a healing place.
And the thought just went through my mind- stop brown nosing- hmm- that was snarky, I don’t want to do that. I hope you know what I say is sincere. Prayers now that you will experience His tenderness in your heavy heart.
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Norris- Thank-You- Especially for this: “The men that are being describe on this blog seems to be false leaders, at no time are the men of God suppose to pillage, pilfer or destroy the flock and it’s a sign that they are false teacher.” Amen brother.
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Gary W, I feel like I am talking way too much here, so I will be brief, what you shared gives me hope & joy.
So, on what principle is the Kingdom of God to operate? Could it be Love? Could it be on the same basis as the Love that does not insist on its own way? 1 Corinthians 13:5. Can it be that anybody who would use authority to impose their will is automatically disqualified from being recognized as a pastor?
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Hello bro. Amos, my bad I’ve been in and out. However if your up now I do have some time. The misses is sleep. Now you still have not told me how does (eph 4:11) fits in your theory. I agreed that none of the apostle called themselves by the names you stated. However the bible does say there will be this five (5) fold ministry. Care to explain that. (smile).
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Sister Gail, it seems to me you are growing again. Now is the time to remove all obstacle that satan has put in your way. The bible says grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (1pet 3:18) Grace teaches us not to live ungodly and soberly in this present age. (tit 2:11). Love holds no grudges nor does it speaks evil of anyone. However it rejoices with the truth. The love that is spoken there only God can produce. It’s the little sin that destroy us (sos 2:15). May God continue show you His grace.
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Gail,
Yesterday you trustingly reached out to Norris with gentleness and truthfulness. You even made yourself vulnerable. He responds by admonishing you not to be ungodly, to be sober, to hold no grudges, and so on. He ends by suggesting that you are engaged in little sins that destroy. You have said or done nothing to deserve this kind of accusation and condemnation. There is nothing that says you are required to excuse or accept any of this. Please reject Norris’ false admonitions.
I urge you to avoid further conversation with Norris. If you find it difficult to avoid responding to him, maybe it would help to take whatever it is he is saying to the foot of the Cross, set it before Jesus, and watch Him cover it with His blood. I don’t know if that’s good theology, but I can tell you it has worked for me.
May our Lord richly and deeply bless you.
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Hello and good morning Gail, I did no such things as that person describe. As he misinterpret scripture he misinterpret me. Only thing I can say for that guy is he has venom in his mouth when it comes to me. Not only did I encourage you, I also showed you where you spoke of the little sin that sometime get to us. At no time was I being accusative or condemning. As I said before I am a teacher of grace. Why did’nt that guy ask me what was it I was saying? Instead of condemning the things I said before he understood them. No Gail I continue to say to you to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. If this is therapy to you continue to use it to your benefit. Also pray for me that I learn how to convey my thoughts across the internet. Love your brother in-Christ.
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Good morning Amos, if your up I would love to dialect with you. (smile)
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Norris Lee
You write…
“However the bible does say *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
Hmmm? Can’t seem to find – In the Bible – as you say – “this five (5) fold ministry.”
Are you saying you can make monkeys fly out of your ears? – Again?. 😉
Listen Norris – It’s one thing for us to dis-agree about what a certain Bible verse means. Or, even a group of verses. And there are many ideas, doctrines, man has taken from the Bible that are debatable – And I love researching the scriptures asking Jesus what these verses mean, for me, for today. So I can – “be established in the “Present Truth.” 2 Pe 1:12 KJV.
But – When you continually – “Add things to the Bible” and refer to things that are made up by “Mere Fallible Humans” to gain – Power – Profit – Prestige – Control – to “Lord it over God’s heritage.” When you continually – “Add things to the Bible” that have become “Traditions of Men” that make VOID the Word of God.
It becomes very difficult for me to responde to you. 😦
Just a suggestion – If you continue to want to advertise yourself as pastor/teacher
You might want to stick with info that comes from the Bible – And NOT from Man.
For many years, I’ve listened to pastor/leader/reverends tell me, over and over again, The Bible Says… The Bible Says… And foolish me believed them because they had a “Title/Position” and told me they were trustworthy.
But – I start to check the Bible for myself – And, low and behold…
Much of what they told me was NOT – In The Bible – It was NOT “Truth.”
Now – You say – “The Bible Does Say” – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
But – In my research – and God forbid, my research can be wrong… 😉
In my research – The Bible Does NOT Say – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
Can you please show me – Where? – In the Bible?
“The Bible Says” – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
And – What does “Fold” mean?
Psalm 138:6
Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
but the proud he knoweth afar off.
Psalm 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
and respecteth NOT the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies
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Good morning brother, all i’m asking is for you to explain to me what does (eph 4:11) teaches and how does it applies to your teaching? I’m very familiar with Christ telling us how to build and perfect His church. If what you say is true then I do have a teachable spirit. I’m also willing to listen. Just show me how does (eph 4:11) fits in.
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Norris Lee
Can you please show me – Where? – In the Bible?
“The Bible Says” – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
And – What does “Fold” mean?
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Bro. Amos it’s a theological term. The scripture they use is (eph 4:11). It is used to teach how God will perfect His church through the teaching of the Holy Spirit (2tim 2:2). He use faithful men to accomplish His will. My bad I”m going in and out the house will love to respond sooner. Love bro. Lee
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Norris Lee
You write…
“Amos it’s a theological term.”
NOPE – “Five Fold Ministry” is NOT a “Theological Term.”
Are you trying to make monkeys fly out of your ears? – Again? 😉
Theology – Theo and logy
Theo – means God.
Logy – means – denoting a subject of study or interest.
Theology – Is the study of God.
“Five Fold Ministry” has nothing to do with the study of God.
——————–
Can you please show me – Where? – In the Bible?
“The Bible Says” – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
And – What does “Fold” mean?
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Norris Lee
Oh Yeah!!! Almost forgot…
In EPh 4:11 – In the Greek there are only four positions – NOT Five.
So, Who ever told you there is a “Five Fold Ministry” – Can NOT count.
Why would you trust them?
Do they also have “Titles/Positions” pastor/leader/reverend – NOT found in the Bible?
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Bro. Amos how do you fit that into your theory? Explain further, What is a Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher and how are they used to build up the body of Christ? What was Timothy position in the church, how about Titus? Why would God placed that scripture in the bible if it did’nt mean what it says. Please explain. Five fold ministry surely relates to God and His plan on how to show us (the believers) how he will build (put an foundation under our feet) His church.
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Norris Lee
You keep trying to make Monkeys fly out of your ears… 😉
Can you please show me – Where? – In the Bible?
“The Bible Says” – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
And – What does “Fold” mean?
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Or – At least admit
That like your “Title” pastor…
“Five Fold Ministry” is an invention of man – and is NOT in the Bible.
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And you haven’t a clue to what “fold” means… 😉
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Brother Amos I explained what it meant to me. Do you want to use this as a stepping stone to teaching or do you want to berate me for my lack of knowledge.
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Norris Lee
Okay – “a stepping stone” – “a learning experience.”
Well, we’ll see…
You ask…
“What was Timothy position in the church, how about Titus?”
“Servants.” “His Disciples.” Learning directly from Jesus – NO middle man…
NOT one of His Disciples called themself – pastor – leader – reverend.
They ALL called themselves “Servants.”
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
**His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
None called themselves “Pastors or Leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “Servant-Leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader” or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they a “Disciple of Christ?”
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Brother Amos, I have to step out for a minute. Will respond when I get back.
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Norris Lee – Oh Yeah…
Please – just call me Amos.
If we really are “Brothers in Christ” – We do NOT have to announce it.
We will know it – by the Spirit.
NOT saying this about you – but – in the past…
Many said they were my brother – When it benefited them…
But – when you challenge their Power – Profit – Prestige – Things get ugly – fast.
And I’ve been “crucified” by – Loving – Grace filled – Christian Brothers.
So, when I hear “Brother Amos” – I do NOT like it – and I do NOT trust it…
Actions speak louder then words – and all that…
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Yes Mr. Amos, Paul did describe himself as an apostle several times in scripture, one of the ministry mentioned in (eph 4:11). Luke called some women by the name Prophet in the book of acts. Agabus also was called a prophet in the book of acts twice. Once again, one of the ministry mentioned in (eph 4-11). How does that apply to your theory? Love bro. Lee
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Hello brothers and sister of this blog, My name is Norris Lee, I’m a brother in-Christ. I would to be a part of the fellowship here on this blog, however I sense a lot of hurt and pain. Yes we all struggle until the day of Christ, yet in the mean time we suppose to be loving toward each other. I have wronged no one on this site, however I seem to be an outcast. If I don’t understand something, I will search it out. I came in love and still believe in love. No you don’t me, yet I have not asked for anything other than your conversation. I have not stole from anyone, nor have I mislead anyone intentional. As I have said before I have a teachable spirit and I’m willing to learn, without hostility. I f I don’t get it, we can both agree to disagree in love. Please keep praying for me to understand tis blog.
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Norris Lee
Okay – Let’s try again – Please call me Amos
NOT MR. Amos – NOT brother Amos… Just plain ole – Amos – thanks…
And you are the one who said…
“Do you want to use this as a stepping stone”
You’re interested in Eph 4:11 – And I have lots to say about that verse and all of Eph 4.
But – You write in your first comment to me @ APRIL 6, 2013 @ 10:10 AM…
“One thing I’ve learned in Christ is to establish a “true premise” in order to come to the knowledge of the truth. Therefore wrong premise, wrong answer.”
Now – Premise – in the dictionary is…
an assertion or proposition which forms the basis for a work or theory:
So the basis for my theory on Eph 4:11, begins with {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
And what Jesus taught His Disciples that todays pastor/leader/overseers – “”Ignore.”
So to establish – what I feel is a “True premise” we have to start with Jesus.
———————
This is a repost…
Please – to the best of your ability – answer the question at th bottom… Thanks
———————
Okay – “a stepping stone” – “a learning experience.”
Well, we’ll see…
You ask…
“What was Timothy position in the church, how about Titus?”
“Servants.” “His Disciples.” Learning directly from Jesus – NO middle man…
NOT one of His Disciples called themself – pastor – leader – reverend.
They ALL called themselves “Servants.”
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
**His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
None called themselves “Pastors or Leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “Servant-Leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader” or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they a “Disciple of Christ?”
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Norris you are right in saying there is a lot of hurt and pain. Its not something we can just get over, don’t know if we ever will. When you have been abused by a pastor it is extreemly hard to trust anyone. It just is. You always have a feeling that the man behind the pulpit is up to something. It’ s sad really, but once you experience that level of spiritual abuse you learn to protect yourself. I think you have a good heart continue to pray for the hurting.
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I know this is a stupid question, Where does it say in scripture Amos that Jesus taught Titus and/or Timothy Himself. Also I would like to know how did you learn the scripture? What tools did you use to gather your information.
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Thank you Tina for your in sight.
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Norris Lee
You ask;;;
“Where does it say in scripture Amos that Jesus taught Titus and/or Timothy Himself.”
John 14:26
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things…
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
Psalms 32:8
I will instruct thee and teach thee
in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
It does take a step of faith to believe and trust
that Jesus “can speak to you” and **teach you** “ALL” truth.
And we do have some examples; 1 – Jesus, 2 – Peter, 3 – Paul.
1 – Jesus, as man, delclared, “He” could do nothing of Himself.
And – taught His Disciples – the one living in you will teach you.
John 8:28
…I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just;
because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:19
…The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
2 – Peter understood that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God.
Jesus declared that Peter was blessed for two reasons – because;
1 – Flesh and blood “didn’t” reveal that to him.
2 – The Father, from the realm of Spirit, inside him – “did” reveal it.
Mt 16:17
Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
but my Father which is in heaven.
3 – Paul declared that “his gospel” was not of man,
he received it from God and he conferred NOT with flesh and blood.
Ga 1:11-16
…the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it,
but by the revelation of Jesus Christ
16-To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;
**immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:**
Just a thought.
Do we want to learn about God from a Mere Fallible Human? Who wrote a book?
Or, would we rather learn from Jesus, “the God/Man,”
“The Word of God,” who wrote “The Book?”
Who better to “interpret scripture” than Jesus?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice;”
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Hi Norris,
When I read how you responded to me this morning I thought:
Oh, for goodness sake bro Norris, please take off the preachers hat, and just share your heart or your story with us/me. I do know the Scriptures, I had them shoved down my throat for years.
I am more interested in your story, because Jesus is the author of our lives and he is writing us… I have been praying for you today as you asked: “Also pray for me that I learn how to convey my thoughts across the internet.”
My reaction to what Gary W said to me was heartfelt gratitude. He had my back, and sad to say that has been a rare thing… I suspect he knows what someone has been through, is going through, after being abused by pastors & leaders.
As, I said before, I cannot trust you, because I have a motto now Trust is earned.
Now, if you just want to share your heart here and not your knowledge, I am all ears.
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And Norris
Are you saying the conversation we’ve been having makes you feel like an outcast?
And – You still haven’t answered the question… 😉
———————
This is a repost…
Please – to the best of your ability – answer the question at th bottom… Thanks
———————
Okay – “a stepping stone” – “a learning experience.”
Well, we’ll see…
You ask…
“What was Timothy position in the church, how about Titus?”
“Servants.” “His Disciples.” Learning directly from Jesus – NO middle man…
NOT one of His Disciples called themself – pastor – leader – reverend.
They ALL called themselves “Servants.”
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
**His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
None called themselves “Pastors or Leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “Servant-Leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader” or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they a “Disciple of Christ?”
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God bless you and all that are on this site Gail. I shall be patient and try to understand, I have not been abused by a pastor. Yet I have faced abuse in my life. I was molested as a child, however I turned out alright.(I hope I did) I did not let that stop me from socializing with others. I guess I’m different, I always give the person in my life the benefit of the doubt. That’s what love is opening oneself to be hurt. We all have baggage that we carry around, Some just more than others. I’m scared to say what I’m being led to say because of misinterpretation of what I’m saying. What ever I say will be in LOVE. Until later Bro. Lee
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Amos, you have lost me. I know, When I was taught the scripture, I was taught that ALL scripture must coincide with each other. If what you say is true (what part does man play in teaching the scripture). Why did Paul teach Timothy to teach other men who would be able to teach others. I understand the point you are making, however God uses men to accomplish that part. Just as he did with penning the scripture. We are told that the Holy Spirit was the author of the bible, but He used holy men to pen it. Please shed light on this.
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Norris- Forgive me for being so slow to respond. I ache for anyone who has known the horror of being molested as a child. I am truly sorry that you experienced that horror.
It took me years to be able to tell others my story of sexual abuse, and when I did I experienced a lot of shame even as a Christian. And then a lot of more pain, when I was told by my pastor to just forget it, put it in the past, it was over and done.
NOT SO MUCH. Accepting Jesus Christ into my heart didn’t automatically erase the traumas of my childhood. And the instruction of well meaning, but seriously mistaken, believers “to forget those things behind me” only buried alive in me the agony & pain inside.
I now can see that I received bad counsel from my pastor, isolating Philippians 3:13.
When in the previous verses Paul hadn’t forgot where he came from, he had just stated clearly where he came from. Now I am not a pastor or a theologian, but what seemed clear to me was don’t deny or forget where you have been, Paul didn’t…
And of course, I did not want my past to dictate my future, but memorizing verses, praying my heart out, neglecting my family because I was exhorted to serve my butt off at the church, fasting, running on that performance wheel of trying to be perfect didn’t bring healing or peace.
I am taking a semi risk here in sharing with you. Please understand that I am not looking for or needing you to encourage or instruct me, I am just sharing as a beggar with another beggar the larger story & a few questions.
How did it impact you as a little boy to be molested? Did anyone listen & believe you? How did you work through it? Or have you? Do you still have a place inside you that still bears the shame and scars of being sexually abused?
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heavy questions, Gail. .
fwiw, as a little boy i was sexually molested by my adopted father / who was also a well respected pastor. . and i am still affected to this day as a 44 year old man from that abuse. . still affected. . not to say i’m harboring any unforgiveness or bitterness. . but to this day my relationships have been affected by what he did to me. . long story for me, but i dissociated the sexual abuse—and it may very well be that the alter who absorbed the trauma is dead. . it’s a story i’d like to share maybe sometime down the road. . not now though.
i’m still reading along. . thought i’d drop my own person testimony to the impact of childhood sexual abuse. .
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monax – big hugs from the West coast to the East coast from JA. It was painful to read about your past – – I felt a literal pain. I hate abuse. But through that abuse, you have an amazing capacity to love others who have been hurt. That is the beauty that comes from such cruel pain. I’m so glad that our paths crossed, monax. Love you, brother!
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You know, me mum once asked me, she said: “David, How is it that you feel most loved?”
i sat on that question for about an hour, then got back to her. “Mom,” i said, “I feel most loved by being understood.”
that was my answer.
thanks, ja, for you love and understanding. .
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That is a very good response and profound, too. When you feel understood, there is an instant connection. Not being understood feels like a wall between two people – a divide of sorts. You’re welcome 🙂
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Hugs, Monax! That’s a pain beyond words.
To be able to answer your mum that it is understanding that makes you feel loved was incredibly mature and insightful. I wonder if that is what most abuse victims feel? I’ll bet it is.
When I’m with people who understand, so much is right, even if we disagree on many other things. Being understood makes us feel safe. Our radar, or BS meter, goes off when we hear shallow platitudes, quick easy spiritual fixes for the great harms that were done. People who don’t understand what abuse does to a person can only gain respect and trust if they really love … with patience, teachable heart, gentleness, etc…
My litmus test for people is how they respond to the abused. Is it with irritation, wishing they’d get over it yesterday and no longer be a bother to you? Or do they grieve for them, care about their long and difficult journey, and want to love them in some meaningful way?
And it seems that the moment a person reveals they’ve been abused, then the expectation for them to respond to it perfectly, almost without feeling, certainly without any doubts, and no real anger, either, is laid at their feet … while the perpetrator is treated with kid gloves and lots of grace. Well, that’s been my observation, anyway.
Monax, I’m sure you’ve experienced some of this along the way and I’m very sorry for all you’ve had to go through.
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O, Monax, Yes, I know: Very heavy questions indeed.
I was asking Norris my questions because I wondered if he might be burying his painful past behind the Word.
Painful: to ask: Only because if that is what he was been taught to do by the church… then so much is missing
It never entered my mind that duh, others might be reading. Please forgive me.
Gotta sleep now.
FWIW I ache that you were abused…. Abuse truly leaves long lasting scars…
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Katie, i see you understand. .
and, actually, it’s really only a few close personal friends that know about the abuse—and then y’all at SSB here. that’s about it.
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Monax, my heart aches too for what you have suffered. I have found in this trial that I also do not want to be preached at and what I thought I was so sure of I question now. I don’ t care to debate the things in the Bible, thats why I don’t comment when things turn into a scripture debate. I have a more simple faith now, it’s just me and God. 🙂 Although while I was in leadership at CCV I spent alot of time in the Word, I now have a more free relationship with God then I have ever in my life. I think the whole Bible boils down to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor. Maybe I’m too simple but I like it 🙂 Thank you for sharing your heart, you’re a good man.
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Monax thanks for sharing your heart. 🙂
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Sacred Gail, you’re all good from my end. . =]
of possible interest: http://spiritualauthority.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/prayers-for-gayle-and-paul-grenier/
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Hi Tina, I noticed we have a friend in common from your Facebook.
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Oh my, Monax! I just read it.
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Tina,
reflecting on your comment above—i’d like to share with you how i stopped doing the institutional church thing about 14 months ago. . prior to that i had spent my entire life doing church the traditional way. .
i wasn’t sure how i’d manage not “having a church”—but guess what!? contrary to what might have been expected—i didn’t become stunted. no, i began to experience a spiritual growth i apparently hadn’t been free to experience till then. my spiritual life since has only deepened—not slackened as some might have presumed.
community is harder for me now but its more intentional. . and different. . and it’s more than just home fellowships with prayer and bible studies. . it’s cook outs and swimming parties. . and like i did with my bro yesterday—we played frisbee golf and caught up with each other along the course. . we encouraged each other, had dinner together, prayed, finished up our reading of the book of Romans. . we are living life together as the body of X.
i’ve always done this kind of thing but as supplemental to church activities. . and now that i’m being church with other Xn friends who are no longer into the “church” scene. . guess what i’m discovering?
in the last several months it has occurred to me that in most of the christian churches the pastors and spiritual leaders have essentially come in-between and even against Christ and His sheep. . . . they are effectively inhibiting the growth of Christ’s sheep through all their institutional mediations and such. . i’m now convinced of this. .
most churches are Houses of Bondage!
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Interesting how this is what missionaries do all the time, only they have less fellowship unless they have a team they work with.
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Monax, I agree.
Katie, its a small world 🙂 especially now with fb
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monax
David – I’m so sorry – for what happened to you…
I’ve been sitting here in Barnes & Nobles for two hours this morning.
Just mourning – Reading and re-reading these comments …
NOT knowing how to respond to the pain and abuse suffered by…
you, and Gail, and Tina, and Norris…
My heart breaks for you all…
And I thank Go for you all…
Jesus wept. — Jn 11:35
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And I thank God for you all
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Bless you Amos. I only have a minute to respond, but I will be free this evening to catch up on reading… I thank-God for all here too.
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Tina
I appreciate what you write @ APRIL 10, 2013 @ 9:38 PM…
“what I thought I was so sure of I question now.”
—- I can really relate to that. My world, and what I believed was turned up-side-down.
“I don’ t care to debate the things in the Bible,”
—- After I left “The Religious System” it was over 2 years before I picked up a Bible.
Or, could read it – the pages were often of brass – I couldn’t focus.
—- Eventually, After a few years of just going to work and going back home to cry a lot. A few years of NOT doing anything for Jesus. NOT going to church. NOT minstering to anyone. NOT evangelizing, NOT shareing the Gospel with the Lost. – NOT being able to read the Bible. All those things I trusted in to get me closer to God. I figured I must have done something really wrong and Jesus was done with me. I was one of those vessels made for dis-honor.
But God… Eventually, little by little, I realized, it wasn’t my fault – And Jesus loved me. – And I mean – Jesus just loved me, whether I did anything for Him – or NOT. Whether I served Him – or NOT. Whether I advanced the Kingdom of God – or NOT. I did NOT have to tithe. I did NOT have to help the poor. I didn’t have to do anything at all to please Him.
NO longer having to deal with “The Heavy Weights” placed on shoulders…
That “The Religious Leaders” had placed on my shoulders…
Jesus just loved me – Just the way I was…
Strengths, and weaknesses, and character defects, and sins, and all.
WOW – The freedom – NO longer having to “perform” to Mans standards.
Just enjoying being loved by Jesus – Just the way I was… 🙂
“thats why I don’t comment when things turn into a scripture debate.”
—- Please forgive me if all thee Bible verses I’m throwing around causes any angst, any triggers. This post was about your story – And what you went thru and suffered. By those who said the Bible is God’s Word and let you down and Abused you.
————
If what I’m writing is offensive to you – Please, let me know…
You can email me privatly if you like…
lovefaith101@me.com
———–
Eventually I did get back to the Bible. But it was much different. I had to throw out all I thought I knew and start from scratch. Went to the Gospels and read about Jesus. Over and over again – Often just the Red. I wanted to get to know Jesus and what He said. NOT what I was taught by man. I became ruthless, wanting to get rid of “The Commandments of men,” “The Traditions of Men” I was taught and believed…
This is what I now recommend for all believers.
Go to Jesus for your self – Get it directly from Him.
“I have a more simple faith now, it’s just me and God.” 🙂
Yeah – For a long time – NO one would listen to what I had gone thru. No one could, or would, understand.
Oh, to be understood – (That was beautiful monax.)
When folks asked me “Where do you go to church?”
Because I NO longer wanted to talk about it – I would answer…
I’m a part of small Home Fellowship – And most would leave it at that.
Yeah – It was a small Home Fellowship – Me and Jesus. 🙂
Thanks for understanding…
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Re: Tina, I didn’t understand why this person we mutually know would not want to attend CC with us. She tried to explain about this bad CC pastor in Visalia, but I didn’t comprehend it back then. Oh how the blinders fell off … I get it now.
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to love and be loved
to know and be known
to understand and be understood
truly, what more is there?
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