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Calvary Chapel is a “franchise” of churches with over 1,500 churches founded by Pastor Chuck Smith. There is no hierarchy structure in place to hold pastors accountable if they behave like bullies or abuse their authority. In light of the upcoming hearing March 4/5, 2013, I want to highlight personal stories.
Please be sure to read these posts for further information on this case. Tina’s story is only one of countless stories. Other stories are of alleged money corruption, alleged physical and sexual abuse.
More articles can be found in these posts:
#WhoWouldJesusSue: Media FAQs and Resources
#WhoWouldJesusSue: Breaking News Advisory – Press Release #1
In August of 2012, I visited Calvary Chapel Abuse blog after noticing hits on my blog from that site (Huge legal victory for Free Speech and Church Abuse bloggers). After reading Alex’s story, I reached out to him, encouraging him as he was hearing rumblings of the possibility that his father might sue him.
Weeks later, Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier’s attorneys issued a press release acknowledging their intentions to file a defamation lawsuit. One person named as defendant on the press release was Tina Jenkins. In September of 2012, Tina contacted me. We exchanged several e-mails and I asked if she could tell me her story for publication on my blog. She agreed and started working on her story.
Eventually, Bob and Gayle Grenier did file a lawsuit against their step-son/son and former church member, Tim Taylor; however, Tina’s name was absent from the lawsuit. Of course that was a huge relief to Tina, but she said I could still tell her story. She was strongly connected to the situation and wanted something to be done about the problems she saw at Calvary Chapel Visalia. I’ve been saving her story all this time. Tina had been sharing bits and pieces of her story on the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog, but here it is in its entirety. It is a bold and brave step to speak out against an abuser. Thank you, Tina. Your voice is one of many who has suffered this kind of treatment from a pastor.
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O Lord, who may abide in Your tent?
Who may dwell on Your holy hill?
2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,
And speaks truth in his heart.
3 He does not slander with his tongue,
Nor does evil to his neighbor,
Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 In whose eyes a reprobate is despised,
But who honors those who fear the Lord;
He swears to his own hurt and does not change;
5 He does not put out his money at interest,
Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things will never be shaken.
Psalm 15
The following is Tina’s story, in her own words, reflecting her thoughts and opinions of her experiences at Calvary Chapel Visalia under Pastor Bob Grenier.
Tina’s Calvary Chapel Visalia Story
September 28, 2012
Written by Tina Jenkins
I started attending Calvary Chapel Visalia in the fall of 1988. What appealed to me at that time was the very relaxed style, the jeans, shorts and flip-flops. I was born Catholic and married a man who was Methodist, so we had to find a church we both agreed upon. I had a wonderful friend who attended CCV at the time and she encouraged me to come check it out.
The first year or so, I volunteered in the Children’s Ministry where I taught third and fourth grade. It was there I met Paul Grenier, he was in my class. Those were good memories for me. Paul was both smart and funny. He always held a special place in my heart along with a handful of other students. I was newly married with no kids of my own, probably about 21 or 22.
As a new Christian, I was eager to serve and learn. The first interesting thing I remember was, the name changed to Immanuel Christian Fellowship. If my memory serves me right, Bob told the congregation it was so he could teach freely. I never questioned it, I trusted Bob. I also noticed during that time, that many really good people left. I was too young to question anything, I loved this new church I found. I trusted Bob and had no idea he had a sinister side to him. Knowing what I do now, I wish I would have left like the rest of them.
Years, had gone by and I had four children and I was busy with them. I only attended church and was not involved. As the kids began to get a little older around 2002, I was approached by a pastor on staff and asked if I would be interested in the Children’s Ministry. That was something I had never considered and didn’t think I could run three services. After some thought, I decided that I would give it a try. I loved it! Working with the children and awesome teachers that we had, blessed me so much!
I served with my whole heart as unto the Lord. I even set my family aside many times to serve, which I shouldn’t have. I did notice from time to time there was an over emphasis on the building, café and church grounds at the expense of the people. The children’s ministry and the youth ministry struggled while the main sanctuary and anything that had to do with the adults was deluxe. It made my heart ache. But I did what I could to make the children’s ministry the best it could be.
During that time Bob hired a good friend of mine who worked hard, from sun up to sun down. I never and I mean never saw him sitting around being lazy. This man was a brand new believer and was eager to serve the Lord. Bob capitalized on that and began to work him relentlessly. It was almost disgusting the way that Bob had this gentleman cater to him, like Bob was the president and he was his slave. But this guy loved Bob and would have done anything for him. Something happened that Bob decided to let him go. Bob said that he wasn’t performing his job. Ok that’s fine, but there are ways to let people go especially in the church. I believe that it should have been handled in a way that didn’t crush his spirit. When he was let go, I was very disturbed by it because I knew he did work hard and I couldn’t understand it.
Something about this whole situation didn’t make sense. When it was announced in a staff meeting, they asked if everyone was OK with that or something to that manner. I remember saying, “No.” As I can recall, I was the only one that had anything to really say. Everyone was just quiet. I looked around and thought what is wrong with you people, you’re all ok with it? (Now I know why they were silent, they knew Bob better than I did apparently.) I left that meeting shaking my head, but I didn’t know that I would be continually harassed by Bob from that point on. He was always asking me how I was doing and not in a concerned way, more like trying to find out what side of the fence I was on. One afternoon while I was working in one of the classrooms, the church secretary came in and said, “Bob wants to talk to you.” I told her that I didn’t want to talk to him. She left and then came back and said, “Right now.” At this point I was crying and I walked out to the hallway and Bob and Greg Dowds quickly rushed me to Bob’s back office behind the church where no one would be. Bob sat me down and began to try to explain why he had fired this guy. I just looked at him, finally he got frustrated and began to proceed to raise his voice at me telling me how lazy and blah, blah, blah my friend was. After he vented his anger out, he then said, “And if you repeat that, then you can leave to!” I was in shock! I looked over at Greg who stared at the floor and didn’t even make eye contact and I just thought this guy isn’t who I thought he was at all.
He can’t kick me out of the church? Can he? This man isn’t a pastor at all, he just basically told me to hit the door if I repeated what HE just vomited all over me. It was at that instance that I knew there was something wrong Bob. He was now trying to bully me into submission. I felt such a demonic feeling that it made me sick to my stomach. I went home that night and I thought how could this be… the church that I loved so much and raised my kids in and now I’m being bullied around by my pastor? I really couldn’t wrap my mind around it. I felt as if my soul was molested. Greg Dowds called me that night to tell me what a wonderful person I was and how much I did for the children’s ministry. I think it was Bob’s way of doing a little damage control. There was never an apology from Bob.
Many might wonder why I stayed after that. It was very complicated in my mind. My children were born and raised in this church and this was our social life. I also loved the people there like family and I didn’t want to “disturb the church.” So I decided to stay which continued the abuse.
Anyway, I stayed and kept my mouth shut so my children would not have to leave the church they loved. Shortly after that meeting with Bob and Greg, I went into pastor Jim’s office and told him that I never wanted to be left alone with Bob again and if he could please be present if Bob ever needed to talk to me. Jim’s words were something like, “Did he say something to you?” I just shook my head no because I didn’t want to disclose what Bob had said and risk being kicked out of the church. I continued to serve as the Children’s Ministry Director but I had a plan to get out of leadership quietly. I was not going to be a part of a corrupt leadership. The weeks following this harassment I just about had a nervous break down. I tried to hide the pain but it was showing and the people who knew me began to ask if I was ok. I just shook my head “no” but I didn’t say a word. There is nothing worse than seeing the man who is bullying you around with intimidating stares, and a threat hanging over your head, then speak about the love of God from the pulpit. It was the most disturbing thing in the world. Being the type of person who wears my emotions on my sleeve, my face showed the grief I was feeling. I was told that I couldn’t go around looking like that and I needed to basically plaster a smile on. This was even more abuse and every time I pulled up at the church I would just start shaking and crying. I finally went in and told Assistant Pastor Jim that I couldn’t work like this anymore. I had to step out of the ministry.
Just about the time I stepped out of ministry, they hired a new pastor for the youth. He was a breath of fresh air and had a genuine love for God and the youth. He asked me if I would help in the youth department and I told him I would assist but I wouldn’t get back into a position where I was being paid. I didn’t want to be a part of leadership there, I saw the arrogance and mean spirit of Bob firsthand. Well as I helped in the youth, I ended up loving it as well. I was still very gun-shy and tried to keep my distance. I don’t know exactly what happened but Bob let him go too. I venture to say because he wasn’t a yes man. He would speak up when he needed to and that is just not acceptable to Bob. Bob runs the show with an iron fist. He basically told him on a Wednesday night that he was to perform worship and someone else would teach. I was called aside and told that he quit to pursue his music career. My first thought was, “What?” Then I thought, “I know him and he wouldn’t just leave the kids he loves, that’s not like him.” The look on his face that night was hurt beyond measure and I knew something was wrong. It all came back to me again, how they treated my friend a year prior and how Bob bullied me around and I thought I’m not going through this again.
Because this youth pastor was let go so suddenly, we decided to have a going away party for him at my friend Deanna house. We invited the youth group and anyone else who wanted to say good-bye and good luck. After that evening, it was decided that we would start a Bible study there and he could lead it. Anyone was invited to come, even those who didn’t attend Calvary Chapel. My husband and I intended to purchase Deanna’s home and continue to have the study. Pastor Mike called me to ask me how the move was going and I told him fine. He then proceeded to ask me if I was going to continue having that Bible study in my home after I bought the house and I said, “Yes, is that a problem?” His reply was, “Well…not for me.” I knew exactly who had the problem with that, the man who needs to control everything. It was then that I decided to leave. I thought to myself, I will never go to a church that feels they have the authority to tell me I cannot have a Bible study in my home. Prior to that call from Mike, Bob glared at me in the foyer of the church with his arms folded. My husband walked right up to him and said, “Hi Bob how are you this morning?” Later Russ said, “Wow did you see him staring you down?” I said I was aware he was trying to intimidate me into submission again. He continued to pick apart the Bible study in my home until everyone finally quit coming. In my opinion, he is relentless and ruthless.
I first stayed because I didn’t want to remove my children from the church they loved and then I left so Bob could never harm my children spiritually. I had suffered enough under his leadership and in the end my children were indeed effected by all of this….they should have been able to have a wonderful church to attend all their lives, with wonderful memories and now all they have is the memories of a pastor who bullied around their mother. We attend church now but it is very few and far between and my children just sit with us and they don’t get involved and neither do I. My heart and soul are still damaged.
After I left, I began to wonder about a few things…
Why was the name changed from CCV to Immanual Christian Fellowship?
Why did all those good people leave around this time?
What was Glick going to bring forward to the church?
How come I never saw a church budget the entire time I was there? Didn’t even know there was such a thing until after I left and noticed other churches were completely transparent with the financial records.
Where is all the tithe money going exactly?
Why wasn’t it ever made known who the board was? I guess it wouldn’t have mattered anyway if they really weren’t able to make a difference if you had a complaint.
Who actually owns that church property? Who is on the deed?
Then the blogs began to roll and new info was coming out….what happened to the Grenier boys? Paul? It was then I knew I needed to take a stand to give these boys some credibility to their accusations. After experiencing what I had personally, I could see those things happening to them.
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In addition to sharing with me her personal story, Tina also sent me a copy of the letter her family sent to Pastor Bob Grenier saying they would no longer be attending the church. Here it is:
Sent May 11, 2007 at 8:57 am
Dear Pastor Bob,
This email is to inform you that we will no longer be attending Calvary Chapel Visalia for the following reasons:
I believe it is my duty to you, and the wonderful people of Calvary Chapel, to speak the truth in love. I have prayed for you that love and compassion would fill your heart, and I will continue to pray for you and the Body of Christ that God has placed in your care.
I would first like to say that back in 1988, I was saved under your ministry, and my husband shortly afterward. We have raised 4 wonderful children in the Lord, under the teachings and leadership of those at Calvary Chapel. We have also built many deep and loving relationships with the members of the body, as we consider them family. I appreciate all of the wonderful things that you have done for Calvary Chapel and the community as a whole. Your work as a police chaplain, the starting of Reaching Youth, the starting of a Community Prayer, all of which God has blessed, and may more I’m sure.
However over the past 5 or 6 years, while I was in leadership, I have observed some things that have broken my heart. One of which is the lack of love and compassion from you as the senior pastor. In the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13:1 says, “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.” I will tell you with a sincere heart, that you are one of the best Bible teachers I have heard and because of this I would consider myself to be well grounded. I believe it is God’s will that you represent Him correctly to the Body of Christ, that is in your care, not only in word but actions (with compassion and love). As you know, our actions speak louder than our words. As a senior pastor the love & compassion for his flock should be a given and should be overflowing.
I have watched and seen many in leadership just disappear. I have also observed that the church is run by fear and intimidation. It appears that our church is run like a corporate business, with you as the CEO, rather than a shepherd taking tender care of the flock. I learned very quickly not to do or say anything that might upset you out of fear, not respect. While at a staff meeting you mentioned, “This is not a country club and I know a pastor that fired his whole staff and replaced them.” This type of statement is very offensive, shows no love nor appreciation, and would offend those on a construction site, let alone the house of God. Another thing I guess I just never got over was when I was taken to the back room and where you shared your disgruntled feelings toward someone I hold dear to my heart and then told me if I repeated it to him than I can also leave. That blew me away and needless to say showed me your heart. Just to make you aware, XXXX got saved at Calvary and was a new believer when you placed him in a position of leadership. He loved and respected you and as far a I could see would have done anything for you, even given his life. You in your wisdom, if you weren’t pleased with his service, could have let him go in a way that would have spared his heart. Since he left, he has questioned his faith and really has not found another church family. If things were handled the way Jesus would handle them, then he would still be attending Calvary.
I know that you have a deep relationship with God, but intense stares of disapproval in the foyer because of a Bible study, that by your standard, is not “Calvary ordained”, does not show God’s love. This Bible study is for adults as well as children to hear the Word of God and there have been many people who do not even attend church, come and hear the Word. It wasn’t meant to cause waves, nor was it meant to be Calvary ordained. It was meant to be “God ordained”. It’s just good Christian people getting together for the Word, worship and fellowship. Pastor XXXX has a gift from God as you well know, otherwise you wouldn’t have hired him. Please don’t let your sense of having to be in control, and pride hinder the work of God. Just as a sub note, I lead a Bible study with my parents that is not “Calvary ordained ” and my parents have grown in the Lord and my mom is now saved. I’ve seen a lot of half-truths being spoken to the flock and knew my head was on the chopping block for extending to Pastor XXXX our future home for a Bible study.
In addition, it is apparent to all that visit our facility, that it is beautiful and well maintained. But there is an overemphasis on this, while other ministries suffer financially. The youth and children’s ministry should always be above the facility, since they are the future church. Unfortunately, having worked in the children’s ministry I know they come last. Honestly, we could do without all of the elaborate things we have obtained. I personally would rather sit on a lawn chair in the park and hear the Word preached by a loving pastor, than sit in a cathedral with one who lacks love and compassion. Where did this all go wrong?
I really believe the Lord is grieved. Yes, we should love and respect our pastor as I know the Word says, but you have an obligation to the Lord not to abuse the flock. We are not disposable, we are the Body of Christ. Perhaps you have forgotten this is not your church, it’s God’s and placed in your care. I want it to be known that I love everyone at Calvary but I just can’t stay where I don’t feel the love from you and I refuse to be intimidated and made to feel uneasy when I go to church. If someone asked me why I left, I’ll say I needed a loving and compassionate pastor. You may share this email with anyone you see fit. I have emailed this to Pastor Mike and Pastor Jim so as to keep the record straight. No response is necessary, I have nothing more to say. Except “Love the flock”.
Respectfully,
The Jenkins Family
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Thank you Tina.
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This is a very disturbing story. I listened to it several years ago from Tina directly. When I listened carefully to every detail, it brought back vivid memories of stories shared with me back in 1994, regarding similar issues. Tina is very brave, and has a determined will to see that truth is finally told about the facade surrounding Calvary Chapel Visalia. It is a very toxic environment for the reasons she shares. I hope others like her will come forward with their own stories, because there are many.
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Thanks for your courage, Tina. You have no idea how common your story is. You are not alone. This is one of the reasons why Alex has had to be so forceful in bringing all of Calvary Chapel into this. The system breeds tyrants and sociopaths. It protects them. I wish I could tell you the story of how Calvary Chapel nearly ruined me. I served as a youth pastor for 12 years. An associate pastor for 2. I served in worship ministry for 10. You would be hard pressed to find me in a Calvary Chapel again. I am a heretic to those whom I taught, and an outcast because I stood up against one well known pastor in the CC movement.
You have my prayer and support. Alex knows how to get you in touch with my wife and I, if you would like to talk.
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Thanks for your courage, Tina. You have no idea how common your story is. You are not alone. This is one of the reasons why Alex has had to be so forceful in bringing all of Calvary Chapel into this. The system breeds tyrants and sociopaths. It protects them. I wish I could tell you the story of how Calvary Chapel nearly ruined me. I served as a youth pastor for 12 years. An associate pastor for 2. I served in worship ministry for 10. You would be hard pressed to find me in a Calvary Chapel again. I am a heretic to those whom I taught, and an outcast because I stood up against one well known pastor in the CC movement.
You have my prayer and support. Alex knows how to get you in touch with my wife and I, if you would like to talk.
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Thank you, sweet sister. Everything you have said rings true to me also as I saw the same things. Not only from the leader but also many in leadership in the flock. And….as you said….you believe the boys because of what you saw, as do I.
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Tina, thanks for your openness and honesty. I am sorry you have had to go through these trials, but we know that God is able to work ‘all things together for GOOD for those who love Him…’ You and Russ (and Alex) are prayed for regularly as well as all those beloved brethren who have attended (and those who still attend) CC Visalia.
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Not all Calvary Chapels are bad, not all people that own guns are bad, not all people are bad, not all food is bad, not all public schools are bad, not all presidents are bad, not all pastors are bad. Tina even says this one man changed the church affiliation to be independent, it is a sad sad story but we shouldn’t blame a group for one bad “pastors” actions.
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Hi Jill – Thanks for stopping by. I just checked over the post and can’t see any place where it says all Calvary Chapel pastors are bad. That’s just not something that I would say because I do not believe it to be true. I also would not say that all Sovereign Grace churches and pastors are bad or all Independent Fundamental Baptist churches and pastors are bad. I did, however say this: There is no hierarchy structure in place to hold pastors accountable if they behave like bullies or abuse their authority. That little “if” word is so important. It really is important that we take a look at the hierarchal structure and and see how the system is able to handle abuse cases. Or . . . . is the system so messed up that it allows abuse to occur and continue? That is the pattern that many are observing. We need to keep talking.
I’ll bet there were a couple decent coaches at Penn State, too, but the system demanded an overhaul, didn’t it?
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Tina, thank you for your bravery in telling your story and in how you stood up to Bob! I’m grateful for how you doing your part has helped so may of us!
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Jill,
The fact that you would defend the Calvary brand in the face of a victim, Tina’s story, without acknowledging the pain she went through first, shows a lack of love.
Oh the stories I could tell … 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 … CC pastors and counting …
Any group that has all the power in the pastor’s hands and no meaningful accountability is dangerous … even if your pastors seems like a good guy for now. “Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” –Lord Acton
In case you don’t know, one of the distinctives of being a Calvary Chapel is that your pastor is a Moses Model style leader, which means he has all the power and answers to no one. If your pastor claims he’s not a Moses Model, then ask him how he is still a Calvary Chapel? Remember, ONLY your pastor is associated with Calvary Chapel not the attenders. Without membership the pastor doesn’t have to legally answer how he spends the money.
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You’re right, Gail. I’m sure it took Tina many painstaking hours to recount this difficult time as she wrote this. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were tears shed. I know the first time I saw my name in “lights” publicly, it was pretty emotional for me. This is not fun – it is not pretty. It’s too bad Jill seemed to overlook that.
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Tina’s story made me very upset and unfortunately it is one of many that I was given. I sat across a board room table from Chuck Smith, Dave Rolph and Chuck’s attorney Janet Carter and shoved a stack of testimonies across the table…one of the stories was the Jenkins family. People wonder why I freak about the BG situation and won’t let it go? Well, above is one of a ton of reasons.
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Yes, thank you Tina for having the courage to come forward.
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The reason Tina has the courage to come forward with this information is that she counted the cost to follow Jesus many years ago. Once she is convinced of the truth, she is fiercely loyal to it. Tina does not make up stories. Many of the others like Tina, have sat on their stories for many years, not wanting to bring any reproach to the name of their Savior or His Church. But they see how destructive just a few, or even one person can be when they allow fear to silence them, We will be harassed in this world for following Jesus but it should never come from within the walls of a church.
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Thank you all for your prayers and encouragement. Funny thing, when I read this yesterday, tears were running down my face. Yes, it is still painful, but I will survinve and I do believe God has a purpose in it. I’m actually greatful to be gone from there. No more abuse. Now I hope we find justice and truth for the Grenier boys. The Lord sees what is going on and I believe he will see that justice takes place.
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Amen, Bryan, your words are so good!
Tina – I’m always amazed at how one person’s personal story can move people emotionally. I think we have a record here. As of this comment, 86 people have shared your story on Facebook. That’s a lot. Who knows how many will read it and identify with what you have shared. Some might be able to acknowledge for the first time that maybe something is wrong at their own church. That is what personal stories do. Thank you, again, Tina.
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Hi Julie, 100% agree with what Grateful wrote, wish I would have said it! Maybe there is another Gail who comments here, but kudos’s go to Grateful.
Tina Thank-you. I so appreciate the way strength & tenderness flows out of your words, hopefully more courage will be mine in time, and I will be able to respond gracefully. Afraid I am more of a gal of thunder, because I want beat these guys up.
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Hi Tina,
Thanks for posting your story…I hope many will read it. You portray your emotions in such a way that all of us feel your pain! You gave a very accurate picture of the way Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia rolls and mirrors many of the things that I personally saw and experienced. I believe that you would have a legitimate case with the California Labor Department as would “R” and “J”. Employers cannot legally harass employees in such a manner.
We also had a very informal Bible study in our home and Bob continually would say from the pulpit that anyone having a Bible study needed to contact the church office. Bob even sent a little spy to our study to check it out.
I had a very similar “office experience” with Bob. I was called in after writing him a letter asking him a question about his Easter sermon. I did not feel the need to go into his office either, thinking we could talk about it after church in the foyer, but he insisted. Long story short, he lost his temper with me, no self-control whatsoever. I am writing this to say that Tina’s story is legitimate.
I want to appeal to people at CCV to consider all the evidence and testimony that has been presented by many of us and ask your pastor the hard questions and ask yourselves who is telling the truth.
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Thank you, Laurie, for validating Tina’s personal story publicly. Maybe someone should look into contacting the California Labor Department. Some pastors seem to think they are above the law. I suppose that might happen if you are buddies with the entire police force, though, after having served as volunteer chaplain for so many years. I think the Visalia Police Department knows that all eyes are on them now.
The need to have oversight of Bible studies is simply a control maneuver. The next step beyond that is that you all need to submit your prayers to him for approval. Give me a break. Pastor Bob Grenier is not behaving like a shepherd with that kind of bullying. Bob Grenier, step down as pastor. You are not following scriptural precedent for a godly shepherd who tends his sheep.
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Tina,
Thank you for your personal account of your time at CCV. I worked as Bob’s (i refuse to any longer use the title pastor for him – he in no way fits the biblical definition) secretary for five years, 1984-89 and so many of your experiences were so similar to mine. Bob told me on more than one occasion that He would NEVER be subject or accountable to anyone! Sadly, we in the office at the time, used to joke that if bob were not a “cc pastor” he would make a great mafia hit man. My words, I take responsiblity for them.
Our family left brokenhearted in about 1993 – we loved and still love the family of Christ that we were blessed to be a part of there. Several of our dear friends were still attending up to last year and some are still there! I too, did not want to talk about my experiences because I did not want to be “divisive”, gossip or cause harm to the work of God. That all changed when I became aware of what had happened to the boys when they were under bob and gayle’s “care”. For me, that is when things went from being a systemic problem with church structure to felonious. That is when I spoke up and will continue to speak up and stand with Alex and Paul.
Thank you Tina. I continue to pray that those who know the truth will come forward, that many will be set free from the instiutuionalized system of abuse. IMO your letter to bob was beyond gracious. God bless you and your family.
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Wow, I continue to be amazed at how God works. And honestly, if my story help just one other person to identify spiritual abuse then it was worth it. Painful, but worth it. 🙂
Gail you make me laugh. I try to be careful with my words because I still want to represent Christ the right way. Honestly, I don’t always write what I’m thinking! LOL I’m just like everyone else, a very common person, of no real reputation or status in the community. After I left CCV, I started taking up karate. Perhaps in my subconscious, I joined so no man could ever harass me again and I would have the inner and outer strength to take care of myself if I needed to. 🙂
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Thank you, Kris, for sharing your story. It’s interesting how so many of us in this kind of environment felt so much guilt for talking. We convinced ourselves or were taught that it is gossiping or sin to talk about our pastor in a negative light. It is not gossip to tell the truth. It is not gossip to expose people who abuse. I think it is a sin to not expose when there is abuse. But we had to really fight an internal battle to get to that point. For me, it happened when I saw kids hurt. I’ve heard that echoed in the CCV story regarding the Grenier boys – – the Grenier boys’ story compelled them to speak out. I am hoping that the CCV lawsuit will signal a louder alarm to the bigger problem within Calvary Chapel churches where bully pastors can go unchecked.
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Kris, thank you for sharing your story. I can tell you that my rough draft was not gracious at all. I re-wrote that about 5 times before I was satisfied. My husband helped me be gracious. I’m very frank and sarcastic at times and believe me there was a lot of editting.
I have been thinking alot about how I will feel if Alex and Tim win this case. I will feel relieved. This man, in my opinion, brings shame to the name of Christ and Christians as a whole. Funny you mentioned the mafia hit man. I kind of thought of him as the mafia pastor to. When you have to fear a pastor, there is something wrong. There is reallly something wrong. First of all fear is not from God. Any man who enjoys casting fear and intimmidation on someone is not of God, in my opinion. Not only that, he cast fear in women, which to me is even worst. I wonder if that makes him feel big? Powerful? What kind of man bullies women and makes them cry? Yells at them and tells them to remain silent or else? I have zero respect for that man,Zero.
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“After I left CCV, I started taking up karate”
Tina, this is just great. I don’t know much about karate, other than chopping a block in two. Have you ever visualized Bob’s face when wacking on a block?. Seems like a good way to work out some of the hurt… lol. jk.
I have not read this book: Frederick Buechner’s: Speak What We Feel (Not What We Think We Ought to Say) Probably wont- but the title alone grabbed me, I have so much baggage left over from fourteen years in step-ford land that I am always editing what I really want to say, out of fear that i am not being biblical. ugh.
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Tina and any other CCV reader – – – have you had thoughts about what will happen after Tim and Alex win this case? (I truly believe they will – the complaint is horribly written and Tim and Alex’s biggest defense is that they believe what they have written to be true.) So then what? The lawsuit will not remove BG from the pulpit.
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Gail, I just recently became acquainted with Frederick Buechner’s works. I’ve only read a small amount, but he is good!
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Tina…most have zero respect for Mr. Grenier. That is not slander, idle gossip, or a lie. It’s the plain truth. From the many complaints of women who worked under Grenier, they seem to have a legitimate action of workplace harassment. At least it can be established that he has a terribly unbalanced view of women, and the gift they bring to any church.
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Well Julie Anne, I have thought of that. Honestly, if people know the truth about him and still want to go to church there, then so be it. I’m not trying to ruin his business, I just want full disclosure. People need to be informed or I believe it to be misleading. Now, if they choose to keep their heads in the sand, close their eyes and plug their ears, then that is certainly their choice. Unless Bob changes his character, then it will certainly be repeated again and again. I will always be here for Bob’s rejects and castaways because I know there will continue to be them. It’s all very tragic, in my opinion. I do not take joy in any of this, what would have given me joy is if it never happened at all. But I won’t be bullied by him anymore and I will trust the Lord to be my protector.
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Gail, LOL, you might want to take up karate! It does help! 🙂
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Tina: I’m struck at your choice of words for a pastor regarding his church: I’m not trying to ruin his business, That says a lot!
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Interesting word: Business. Why, because that is what it seems to me to be, a business rather than ministering to God’s flock.
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It is a good question to ask. It doesn’t matter whether a pastor calls or names his church a church, it matters how the public and those who attend perceive it to be. The twenty-somethings today see the church as a fairly irrelevant place to be. A place that has been hijacked by a particular brand of politics, etc. And if Tina or others look back on there experience in a CC and it feels like it was more of a business than a church, then there are real problems in that church. Here are some other questions to ask to overcome the business label. Does that church promote itself and a ‘celebrity’ pastor? Does the pastor promote his name in all the social media and sell books to extend his reputation? Who in the church gets the most attention, Jesus or the faces of the church? Does it cost money to attend in indirect ways? Like buying coffee and food items in the church cafe, or books and Jesus merchandise in the church bookstore? Does the church ‘profit’ from any of its sponsored events, retreats, men and women’s conferences, cruises, outreaches?
Church should be a place to fellowship around the Word, around prayer, around the ordinances of communion and baptism. The church should be active in ministering to its families and evangelize along family and close relational lines. Churches should be intentionally seeking unity with others who love God regardless of denominational affiliation. Churches should have a clear view of local and international mission, and be aware of their particular part in accomplishing the Great Commission. Building properties, developing written resources, and employing paid religious staff, are to be focused on the mission, never on brand development or to enhance the public reputation of its lead pastor/priest/prophet/pope.
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Well it came out of one of his top usher’s mouth one day. I said to this usher, “Geezz, he runs this place like a business.” This usher said,”It is a business.” I was shocked. I’m not shocked anymore. I see that it is indeed really that, the usher was speaking the truth.
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That’s why I didn’t fit into leadership there. I don’t see church as a business. I don’t see people as disposable. I thought that as someone in leadership, I was making a vow to God to care for those He place in my care, the children, the parents, the teachers and I thought we were supposed to love one another with a godly love. I thought we were supposed to be compassionate toward one another, seeking the best interest of the other. I guess I was wrong.
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Tina, that is exactly what the Church is about. Unfortunately it seems much of American church life has sold out to marketing and a host of other idolatries. CCV is not a good example of a healthy church. All churches will have issues but some remain healthy when the whole corporate culture is humbly following Christ, and living in the freedom that Jesus gives our soul. Pastors have their place and role but if they get in the way of Jesus’ loving work, then they are to be reproved or removed. Your ideal is biblical and should never be discarded. A poor church experience can leave many scars but following Jesus faithfully will cause bruises too. We live in a hostile world, and at times, it creeps into the church. Taking a stand for Truth will cause some degree of hurt but erring on the side of what Jesus has made clear in his Word is always the best action.
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That’s true Bryan, but I don’t know if I will ever have the desire to serve like that again. Who knows though, God could change my heart.
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Something that has helped me more and more over the years is developing a more correct view of “ministry”. CC and most other evangelical churches promote a distortion that is entirely unbiblical. There is no distinction between secular and sacred work. From a Christian point of view, all work is sacred. When a pastor asks if you are “called” into the ministry, and they are referring to paid pastoral leadership of some kind, it betrays their poor understanding of the theology of work. So Tina, if you serve your family, or the students in the office at school, or the customers in the bank, or the children in your neighborhood, then you are serving Christ in ministry. All ministry is not directly related to gospel sharing in a verbal sense but all our work is a means to make God known. That is what is meant by the phrase in Genesis, “to bless all the families of the earth.” You certainly are testifying to the work of God in your life when you share your painful story and how God is moving more deeply in your heart. You are ministering in a very Bible supported way. Just not paid for it.
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Paul, in Ephesians, makes it clear that all of us have a gift or gifts to use in building the Kingdom of God. Some are pastor/teachers. To lead is a very significant and necessary role. But to give the impression, as so many modern pastors do, that they have a special anointing that is not available to the same degree in you, is false teaching. The Bible often states the need to gain the wisdom from a multitude of counselors. Multiple views gives a more complete picture of the situation. All spiritual gifts necessary are employed. One man does not have all the gifts, thus will not have all wisdom. It is possible to assume that a congregation of saints, humbly following God, will have equal or better counsel than one senior religious leader. That is why I reject the Moses-One-Man-Show promoted within CC. If C Smith claimed to be infallible, that is one thing. But he claims to be a sinner saved by grace, and not glorified yet. That means he will err, and possibly err severely sometimes. A pastor leading must see the necessary and wise input of his Elders and congregants as the way God speaks to them in the manifold wisdom of God. To set up an authoritarian structure will limit the full wisdom of God.
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Thanks for sharing that thought! That’s more natural for me anyway, I love to help those in need in a practical way. I don’t need a salary to do that, none of us do, and we are able to freely love. I think that if everyone in ministry served without pay, we could pull the weeds out, and truely see the wheat! Wouldn’t that be wonderful, people serving people without the need to be paid. What a concept!
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BTW…another side note. The CCV fiasco started as a private, spiritually sensitive attempt to get to the bottom of some relatively serious accusations. Most thought the pastor would accept godly, loving rebuke. Most thought him to be spiritually mature enough to respond in humility. Most thought corrections would be made if necessary. But that was driven by what was seen and understood from the public persona of the pastor. Not many knew of the apparent dichotomy between the public and private character of the man. As evidenced over the past several years, and the initiation of this defamation suit, the pastor functions from a very different set of rules than the Bible he has committed to teach and follow. Sound thinking people can clearly see what is happening in this story. The big picture is gaining clarity as the little details keep trickling out.
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Just a thought….I don’t believe Jesus received a salary. Oh wait, He was the servant of all and lead by example, loving the body of Christ, washing their feet. Wouldn’t that be wonderful to have leaders in the church that followed Christ example.
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The power of any local church is controlled by the charitable giving of the average church attendee. If there is any question as to the soundness of character in any paid pastor’s life, then the church should simply withdraw their financial support. It won’t be too long in a small church for the pastor to “wise up” and maybe go seek employment elsewhere.
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Yes Tina. I think Jesus would turn just a few tables in the foyer of many churches, as well as at the many conferences and retreats. Jesus shares his Glory with no man, even though he empowers all men who truly seek him.
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I often think of what Chuck Smith is responsible for in the movement he leads. The casualness disturbs me now. Can you think of Moses or even the High Priest climbing the mountain or entering the Holy of Holies with a Hawaiian shirt on and a grande Starbucks caramel latte in hand?
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To all those in Exile, chosen or forced, have a great Sabbath rest. God will heal your soul, and restore your trust in the genuine Church.
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Tina
Thank you for your story and your courage to speak out.
There is NO Excuse – for Abuse… Of any kind.
You write…
“I don’t see church as a business.” “I don’t see people as disposable.”
“…I guess I was wrong.”
NO – You are NOT wrong. You are correct. We, as “The Church of God,” – His Body…
“we were/Are supposed to be compassionate toward one another,”
“seeking the best interest of the other.”
Stick with what “you know” to be “Truth.” Jesus will teach you all truth.
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
And Jesus will show us – How we can “serve” Him – And who to “serve.”
Seems we are to “Serve” Jesus and “Follow Him.” – NOT serve people. – Huh???
But – When you serve and follow Jesus – You will serve people. – Say what???
There is a difference. 😉
John 12:26
If any man “Serve Me,” let him follow me;
and where I am, there shall also “My Servant be:”
if any man “Serve Me,” him will my Father honour.
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Tina
I appreciate your responses and how you are seeing our walk with Jesus.
One challenge for us, as I see it is with the word – Church – And how we use it.
And – How the Bible uses the word – Church? Makes an interesting Bible study. 😉
In the Bible, did anyone ever “Go to church? Join a church? Give money to a church?
So for me – It becomes – Which church are we talking about?
1 – “The Church of God?”
2 – the church of man?
1 – “The Church of God?” – Isn’t that where Jesus, He is the head of the body, Col 1:18.
(The ekklesia, the called out ones), The Church? And “ALL” are important?
Where Jesus has “given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:” 1Cor 12:24.
And Jesus asks His Disciples NOT to be called Leader – “ONE” is your Leader – Jesus.
2 – the church of man? – Isn’t this where man is in control, in charge? Making up rules?
Taking “Titles/Positions” NOT found in the Bible. Pastor/Leader Reverend?
Senior Pastor, Lead Pastor, Holy Reverend, Most Holy Reverend, Pope, Dr, M.Div.
Where a “Mere Fallible Human” goes to a “secular” Goverment organization, IRS,
and asks permission to be called “Church.” They fill out a form, called a 501 (c) 3.
When/if you’re approved, you become a Gov’t approved, Gov’t inspected,
501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation. The IRS calls church.
Does that sound like “the church of God” in the Bible?
Did Jesus shed “His Blood” to purchase – a Building, an Organization, an Institution,
a Denomination, a Business, an IRS $ Corporation?
NOPE – Jesus shed His Blood to purchase – His Body, His People, His Church.
You and me. 😉
Should His People call an IRS $ Corporation – His church? AAARRRRGGGHHH 😉
No – Where we ALL suffered “Spiritual Abuse” was NOT – “The Church of God.”
It was the church of man, a steeple $ corporation, “The Corrupt Religious System.”
“The Church of God” “The Body of Christ” His People – is how you describe it…
“be compassionate toward one another, seeking the best interest of the other.”
“I love to help those in need in a practical way.”
“people serving people without the need to be paid. What a concept!”
“loving the body of Christ, washing their feet”
And – Every once in awhile, I get to experience “the Church of God ‘ in action. 🙂
Thank You Jesus…
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Amen and Amen to A Amos love, Amoslove, and Bryan. I had this thought the other day….I was thinking, it was all a lie, 20 years of my life. Then God spoke to my heart and said, “My relationship with you wasn’t a lie.” And it made me smile and say, “Yes, Lord you are right.” Bob deceived me, but God was real and alive in my life and still is.
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Tina, I was going to post a comment here for you and others but decided to drop it here: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/03/03/calvary-chapel-chuck-smith-the-moses-model-let-the-little-dogs-bark/comment-page-1/#comment-9226
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Thank Monax. When I read the responses to my story, I indeed feel the love of God coming through to me and I get all choked up and moved in my spirit and God tells me it’s going to be ok. Thanks all of you for your love and support. This feels like church to me 🙂
What I also feel is God’s righteous anger, which says enough is enough. I have always felt Christians are too whimpy now a days. But in the last 5 years I have seen good men and women rise up and take a stand and that is very refreshing!
Thank you Alex, Tim and Paul for leading the way and helping God’s church find healing.
Thank you Bryan, Julie Anne and all the others for all the support and love you have shown me.
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I have been thinking a lot today, trying to synthesize a bunch of what has taken place over the years at CCV and CC in general. I think there is a silver lining in all the revelations that have been leaking out in the last few years.
Calvary Chapel is very representative of much of the anti-intellectual segment of the evangelical church today.Their Distinctives are an attempt at giving an historical and theological basis for what they are and what they do. They are trying to simplify several tensions that have origins way back to the Reformation. Much of their practice is a form of pietism; emphasizing bible study and seeking the intimate leadership of the Holy Spirit in everyday experience. They certainly are not Reformed in doctrine but hold to the high view of scripture that the Reformers held. No matter how much emphasis they place on the centrality of the Word of God, they seek an informal and casual experience of faith that leans on impressions from the Lord that doesn’t always square with scripture. In other words, they are squishy theologically. More certainly can be said about that.
The silver lining mentioned above very well may be the fact that the average, once manipulated and oppressed lose membership that has become exiled from CC, are now clinging more tightly to Jesus, and are studying with their eyes wide open. There is a more informed lay population, and they are searching the scriptures with new vigor. They are also more willing to pay the price of true discipleship by suffering alienation and ridicule from controlling religious leaders, and calling them out regarding their folly and failures. If you know your church history, Luther openly called the Pope the Anti-Christ in his day.
I see all this as a positive. Suffering always deepens the faith of the true followers of Christ. God never will forsake his own, no matter how dark the journey becomes. .
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Amen, Bryan, Amen. Praise God! “For we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose…Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine or nakedness, or peril or sword…no created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Praise our Heavenly Father for His everlasting goodness! Praying for His good and perfect will to be done on 3-4/5. In Christ. Amen
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Amen
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Thank you Tina, Laurie, Lori Kris and other women who have shared their personal encounters with bob.
Bob takes great pleasure in belittling and degrading women. I have heard so many first hand stories of women who have been brutally verbally abused by bob in his office. Almost all of them with their husbands in the room. He would then turn to the husbands and go after them for not having control over their wives!
This attitude towards women begins with chuck smith, as he believes woman must be submissive unto their husbands especially in leadership roles.
In the late 80’s my husband and I were invited to the Pastor’s conference at CCCM. At one point in time Kay, chuck’s wife spoke to all the women. We were told that since God put our husbands in leadership roles that no matter what was going on in our lives, no matter how serious or devastating it was we were NEVER speak to anyone about it. Whenever we were attending a church event etc. we should always have a smile on our face and act as if our lives were full of blessings. As she spoke of this I began to feel sick to my stomach. Why would any woman come to us with their fears and problems if we seemed so perfect? In my opinion it would make them believe they weren’t good enough in God’s eyes! Then a year or so later I went to Gayle for counsel. It was made known to us that bob,Gayle, Susie and Greg Dowds believed God was going to use my husband in a great way. I had been getting ill and no one knew what was causing it, which led me to become fearful and depressed due to reasons in my past with my mom. I will never forget that day! I went to her house and opened up to her. She then began to remind me of a time she had been ill and not been able to come to church ( now I wonder if she really was ill). She then told me that she was going through something much worse, but could not talk about it. She told me that as wives of leaders in the church no matter what we were going through we should be quiet and pull up our bootstraps. She had seen men who God wanted to use in a great way be put up on a shelf because their wives couldn’t get it together and be submissive to their husbands. I sobbed all the way home feeling like it would completely be my fault if God did not use my husband!!!
It is my personal opinion that bob is a narcissist sociopath and possibly a psychopath who has a hatred for women.
I have such respect for all who speak the dark truth of their encounters with bob, especially the women. Much love and respect to my dear sisters and brothers in Christ who have taken off their masks and are silent no more…
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Wow Janelle thanks for sharing that. For abuse to stop we must expose the abuse. I’m so sorry you experience such a thing and it is my oppinion that Gayle is and has been abused. Her behavior is not normal or healthy, in my opinion.
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Take a minute today to reflect on the life of Jesus, and his various associations and friendships. It is plain as day that Jesus was a gentle and compassionate friend to the women in his life. I have no idea how we have degraded so far away from the way Jesus treated people. It makes me very upset to hear how men, called by God to serve Him and glorify the name of Jesus, treat people, and especially women and children, in the church. This is blasphemous behavior. There are far too many reports for all this to be a fabrication of lies to smear the ‘good’ reputation of a pastor. This behavior should not be tolerated in any context, whether at home, at work, in church, or in the community.
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I don’t know if this would be abuse or just the normal results of a person failing to stand up for herself or even worse her husband’s failure to stand up for her. Perhaps I am different but I am sure my wife would not tolerate any man or woman attempting to intimidate her and I would not tolerate any man attempting to intimidate my wife. As for his standing in the foyer mean-mugging, my wife and I would probably get a good laugh out of that–in the foyer, in front of him.
The actions this story describe are a pretty frequent occurrence in most work environments. You would be amazed at how often people in “leadership” attempt to intimidate those they supervise. I never practiced intimidation when in the management position and always laughed at those who attempted to intimidate me.
I am sure there are instances of sexual abuse and maybe even physical abuse in “churches” but a person who subjects themselves to harsh language and mean stares voluntarily probably should not be classed with those who endure physical and sexual abuse. America’s fixation with “bullying” seems to have bled into the church and become an excuse for not standing up and demanding that people treat you with dignity.
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I appreciate your insight. It might not seem like a big deal to you but it was to me, because this was coming from my pastor who I loved and trusted. You are right, I should not have tollerated such disrespect and I certainly don’t now. 🙂 I guess you live and learn. I agree that my husband should have been more involved in that situation, but we can’t go back in time. I had already been at this church for about 15 years so my whole life was rapped up in it, all of my social life, and so was my kids. I guess all the years of brain washing, in my opinion, of “Don’t harm the church” “don’t cause waves”. I wanted to be a good Christian and do what was best for others and it was used against me. The purpose of me bringing this to the open really wasn’t to get simpathy, rather to expose spiritual abuse in the church. In addition to that, he was my employer and this is actually harrassment. In all my secular employement I have never been treated the way I was at CCV. But I completely agree and have learned the hard way.
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The other thing I have done since then, is taught my kids how to identify a good church and an unhealth church. I have also taught my kids not tollerate any crap from pastors. They are just a man who teaches and nothing more. If he doesn’t know how to behave like a godly man, we hit the door. It’s also important to us that there is full financial disclosure at all times. If we don’t see it, we hit the door. If the pastor shows any signs of arrogance, mean spiritedness, or belittles others, we hit the door. We will never place ourselves in an unhealthy church ever again.
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“probably should not be classed with those who endure physical and sexual abuse”
I wouldn’t say I am to be classed with those who endured physical or sexual abuse. I never said that and my heart goes out to all the Grenier boys who stated that they endured such things.
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I met bob one time in 1988. I never went back. I remem
ber he ask me why i came?
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I have read some of the comments on this story and I am both shocked and amazed at the statements made about the Pastor at Calvary Chapel. This is not the venue where these allegations should be broadcasted. We as Christians need to start applying God’s word. Whether you think you are telling the truth or you our outright telling a lie. Only God knows. However if we would only begin to put it in God’s hand and ask Him to sort it out and believe it to be so. Imagine if what some our saying is not actually the truth and your amens our not counted as the truth. You have committed an error as well. Do I feel hurt and pain for this whole situation. YES!!!!! However I will hold judgement for God to sort this out. May we not assassinate the character of a pastor as if it does not matter. If what the pastor has done is wrong God will judge him not you.
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Norris – There is a biblical precedent for calling out wolves. I was shocked and amazed when I read the personal accounts of multitudes of witnesses. The Bible requires 2 witnesses. I read far more than 2 accounts. The witnesses have done things the biblical way, now the circle is broadening as the church leaders have failed to hold this pastor accountable.
If the pastor’s character is assassinated, it is by his own doing. He didn’t have to do the things that he did and no one needs to hide from the truth. It should be exposed.
I’m going to pretend that I didn’t read this comment from someone defending an abuser. Maybe when I wake up this will have been in my imagination. I hope so.
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Julie Anne, concerning Norris Lee: Yes, we can put it in God’s hands to do justice for the oppressed. Indeed, it is in his hands. See Ps. 10-17-18. How does God effect justice for the oppressed, particularly with regard to powerful, untouchable, people? Sometimes he sends a prophet. As only one example, he sent Nathan the prophet to call out David’s crimes. We know that the ministry of prophets will be with us until the Body has achieved “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11-13, ESV). We know that some of these prophets are female. Acts 2:17, 21:9. “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied” (Matthew 5:6, ESV), but you will no doubt continue to draw criticism as you proceed to expose error, injustice and oppression. Still, “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:10). You are doing the Lord’s work. Keep it up.
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Gary W. – Thank you so much for that. I almost missed it when I was going over the comments. I’m glad I didn’t.
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Not your imagination Julie Anne. .
@ Norris Lee. . perhaps the best venue at this point for airing this insanity would be the major media outlets like CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. . Why? Because the church herself has failed to address and correct the Bob Grenier madness—and so the abuses continue continue continue continue unabated they continue.
There needs to be a WARNING written over the skies of Calvary Chapel Visalia that this so called “Christian Church” is a haunt headed up by a WOLF, a SNAKE, and a FALSE PASTOR. But somehow, Norris Lee, you want to silence the watchmen!
You say: Imagine if what some our saying is not actually the truth and your amens our not counted as the truth. You have committed an error as well.
Norris Lee, why don’t you imagine for a moment that these testimonies may actually just be the ugly truth! You know—that “Pastor” Bob Grenier sadistically abused his own sons! That he forced his five year old boy to perform oral sex on him! Don’t you think if someone’s gonna error on one side of the issue it would be in the support of the alleged victims and not the alleged Monster?
But please know, Norris Lee, these testimonies of abuses are not nebulous accusations that can’t be substantiated. I, myself, have talked to several men from CCV (at length on the phone) who have related to me the same patterned stories of abuses.
Norris Lee. How so very Chuck Smith of you to reiterate a most Satanic of lies: that “Only God knows. . . [and the right course of action for all of is] to put it in God’s hand and ask Him to sort it out and believe it to be so.” Bull Shit! Norris Lee—don’t be a fool!
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans… And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgement on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and the my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:1-5).
The least you can do Norris Lee is mourn with those who have been abused and battered. .
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Good words, monax. Where my words failed (and my brain didn’t want to go), the Body of Christ comes together and all parts work together fighting for His cause and justice for those of His who have been oppressed – the defenseless victims. Thank you, brother, for your fight in this battle.
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Dear brother’s and sister’s. My apologies to those who I may have offended. I spoke out of line not knowing all the facts. I was addressing the fact that venom was being spued out all over the internet without adjudication. There’s been in history all kind of liars. So why not wait on God to avenge you. Christ was lied on, cheated, betrayed, accused and disrespected. However He left all judgement to His Father. The final word belongs to God the Father. Why not present your evidence and wait on the answer from God, in His time He will avenge you clearly. To me it just seem a better way to get your point across than to fall to the step of your adversary. To put statement like I heard. and then put them on the internet as facts seem to be erroneous. God said He will use all things to work to the good for those who love Him. Even this. Although there is a lot of hurt and pain associated with this issue. Don’t let that rise to the top, allow Christ love to come shining through. That is when God can receive the glory. I’m no expert on this situation, nor do I claim to be. However I’m always suppose to exhibit the love of Christ. I also would love to meet all of you in church. Tell me where to go. Love yours truly in-Christ Bro.Lee
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Dear Bro. Lee,
The victims involved have followed Biblical models to try to get Grenier to stop the abuse and without success. Some of them went to the other CC churches and the leadership of the association, seeking correction of the situation, without success. They were spurned. Then some chose to become public about the matter, being prophets to the nation regarding the putrescent nature of the leadership of Grenier. The GRENIER filed suit. That made the who thing a matter of wide spread interest.
There were many places along the way for the people with the organizational influence or power to take the needed actions. But they refused. It is on their head, and well as Grenier’s that this has become so widely reported and discussed.
The sin in the life of Grenier, given his position, is a boil on the body of Christ. We can pray about it, and let the body suffer. Or we can take action, lance the boil, and let the healing begin. Posting on a blog is a form of lancing. And God will bless those who speak up for the abused, for the least among God’s children. And the punishment of the abuser will be severe, cf. a millstone around the neck.
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Brother Lee,
You and I see things differently. I see God working through my blog and Alex’s blog (where you also posted) in bringing light to the darkness. These sins were once in darkness and hidden. Now they are exposed for all to see. God desires that truth be exposed. We are doing that.
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I’ve had enough of this. to be honest I don’t even know how I got caught up in this. If your sounding an alarm well invite me to your church or are you just hiding behind some screen letting loose as you see fit. That position loses all faith with me. Sounds like the law to me. The Law of God could not save you it could only point out the weakness in you. You all are screaming a alarm however you are not pointing to where is the right fellowship. People hiding behind a screen. That’s a joke. When your ready to be real. Then speak with a loud voice.
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Norris Lee – I’ve got my full name and picture all over the place. I’m not hiding a thing. I am not going to point people to the “right” fellowship. That is not my job. If you like, stay and ask questions about finding a healthy church – jump in on any thread. Read the Bible, ask God to direct you, talk to others who have good insight.
But if I see another comment in which you are telling me or others to stop posting about abusive pastors and let God take care of it, I will delete it. We’re done with that subject, you apologized, we need to move on from that.
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Dear sister in Christ. May God continue to use you as He see fit. Only don’t shot there is a fire and not open the door for those to run out. See you in heaven, because these people are hiding behind screens.
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Dear Norris, Brother in Christ,
Forgive me, if I am making the following assumption. It seems to me that you haven’t tasted abusive church practices. You haven’t been shamed into submission, or had the bible used as a whip to beat you down. I had that experience, and it almost destroyed my precious & tender love for our Lord Jesus Christ. Without blogs such as ssb & tww that bring to the light evil that is going on in some churches, naming some pastors who are wolves dressed as shepherds, without them, how could we understand that it wasn’t our fault that we didn’t measure up to the heavy load they placed on our shoulders. I am glad you haven’t been abused by a church leader, because it messes big time with your Trust in the Lord. And for the record, God is using SSB on my behalf and as He sees fit. My heart is grateful for J.A. and the people who comment here. There is a lot of love, wisdom, & mercy that flows here.
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Julie Anne, I would like to cheerfully toss some things back at Bro. Lee. He asks were we go to church. For me, at least, church is wherever I gather with other Christians, including on this blog. I wonder where Bro. Lee attends church. He doesn’t volunteer the same information he requests of you and us. Does he attend a Calvary Chapel affiliated church?
Julie Anne, Bro. Lee admonishes to the effect that one who shouts fire should open a door of escape. I thank you that you have opened this blog and your heart as a door of escape to a safe haven for some, maybe many, who had been driven to the brink of despair by abusive pastors and churches. Bro. Lee, if you are reading this, you need only look at what is happening here. Julie Anne is truly one who laughs with those who laugh and weeps with those who weep. That’s Biblical you know. It’s healing you know.
Julie Anne, Bro. Lee is critical of you and us for hiding behind screens. I dare say he does so while hiding behind a screen. So, Bro. Lee, if you are still here, and assuming you are willing to come out from behind your screen,I have some questions for you: Who is Norris Lee? Is that your real name? How old are you? What do you do for a living? Where do you go to church? Where do you live? What email address may we use to communicate with you directly? Are you married? Do you have children? How old are they? What education, training and experience do you have to qualify you to counsel others that they should pray but remain silent while Jesus’ brothers and sister are being victimized? How did you come across this now-rather-dated blog article? Did somebody direct you to it? If so, who? You may not wish to disclose such information. I would not blame you. But if you are not willing to yourself do what you criticize others for not doing, then perhaps . . . Well, I’m thinking of the Golden Rule.
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Dear Gary W. I have no problem answering all of your question. I have nothing to hide. My name is Norris Virgil Lee, I reside in Visalia, Calif. I was just paroled from state prison on 3-30-13 I went to jail for stealing a computer from Best Buy in Torrance, Calif in 1996, I paid seventeen years of my life for that crime. I am now saved and deliver from such acts by the Lord Jesus Christ. I’m 49 years old, I;m presently unemployed right now,I attended Calvary Chapel last week for the first time. I seen an officer who worked at the prison I was held at, when he seen me he came and gave me the biggest hug I have ever have expierence. MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS: norrislee50@comcast.net Yes I’m married, I have two children, two boys ages 24 & 25 I also am a pastor. Through my wife. I associate with Calvary Chapel because of the doctrine that hold to. Brother Gary I have nothing to hide – nor am I ashamed of who I am in-Christ. Nor will I hide behind a screen. how can you say that the fellowship is bad but don’t offer an alternative. God bless you Gary in His name.
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Norris Lee, I’d like to invite you to read the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog that explains in detail what Pastor Bob Grenier is accused of. Look through the old files. Alex Grenier runs it. His brother Paul has posted on there at times in support of Alex, and I think one posting included a letter from Geoff, another step-son of Bob’s. 3 brothers and quite a few former CCV employees, long-time volunteers, attenders and more post there from time to time. It’s a lot of people who all agree with what they saw/experienced with Bob over the years.
I’m really happy for you having received your freedom and wish the best for you and your family in this new chapter of life. It’s only fair that we warn you of the problems at CCV so you won’t be caught off guard. Some have been destroyed by what they experienced with Bob there. In Mt. 18 it tells us to warn the church about the unrepentant … so we do.
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Katie and readers: Just an FYI – Norris has been interacting on the Calvary Chapel Abuse site as well as here. You can find his comment here.
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Thanks, Julie.
Norris, you say you were just released from prison and that you are a pastor. Could you explain how you are a pastor so soon? I’m just trying to understand your context.
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Norris Lee,
You are a living testimony to the saving power of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah. May He continue to prosper your soul. If you can hear it from somebody who chooses to continue to, as you say, hide behind a screen, I encourage you to be very careful to look up to only Jesus, and through Him to our heavenly Father.
I have come to understand that, as children, we need to be affirmed by our fathers. If our father’s do not fully affirm us, we are prone to look to authority figures, as a kind of replacement fathers, for affirmation. Your description of being embraced by your former prison officer is very touching, but I would, as gently as is possible, encourage you to be careful that you are not drawn to this guard, or to Bob Grenier, or any other human, for affirmation–affirmation that, maybe, you did not adequately receive from your earthly father. We are to look to no man on earth as a father, for we have only one Father, who is in Heaven. Matthew 23:9. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus, and only Jesus. John 14:6.
You seem to be asking what church we suggest for you in place of Calvary Chapel. Even if I lived close enough to you to be able to make suggestions, maybe I would be reluctant to do so. You see, I think the better question is, “where can we find Jesus?” We actually have the opportunity to minister to him, directly. If you will feed the hungry you will be feeding Jesus Himself. Likewise, if you give drink to the thirsty, welcome strangers, clothe the naked, visit the sick and visit prisoners, you will be ministering to Jesus himself. Matthew 25:35-40. Take a look at Isaiah 58, and especially what the prophet speaks about undoing the straps of the yoke to let the oppressed go free. That is what this blog is all about, at least as I see it. These things, I suggest, are what your calling, any person’s calling, as a pastor must be all about. In doing such things as these, you will find Jesus. Indeed, you will be, as has been said, Jesus with skin on.
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Gary W. – – Such a beautiful response to Norris. You have a way with words, I tell you!
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Norris, thank you for your honesty. I am so happy that you chose to go to church on your first day out of prison and that you are following Christ now and seeking Christian fellowship. I am somewhat familiar with Gateway, Parkside Chapel, and Grace Community in Visalia and would recommend any of those for you to visit. But I would advise against returning to Calvary Chapel Visalia. Bob has some serious criminal allegations against him, so much that he was asked to step down as Police Chaplain. The judge in Bob’s defamation case against Alex even said that the allegations against Bob are appalling. CCV and CC at large have grossly failed to report physical and sexual child abuse, harassment claims, and financial dishonesty. Whether or not you agree with the methods by which these things have been exposed, I hope this information will help you carefully choose where you want to take your family. May you experience God’s love more and more every day.
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Thank you, A Sister, for giving Norris other suggestions on churches in the area. I concur with you that Grenier has too much negative history coming from multitudes of witnesses. It would be much safer to go to a place with a pastor who doesn’t have such a reputation, but has a reputation of being a humble servant with his flock.
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I agree with A Sister and Julie Anne. When there are 2 or 3 witnesses, an accusation against an elder/pastor can be received. In this case, there are tons of first person testimony of grievous acts of sexual, physical, emotional and spiritual abuse, along with financial improprieties, as well as anger and control issues.
All that and he is a “Moses Model” pastor which means he has all the control and no accountability.
At a minimum I would not give money to anyone who won’t provide a yearly financial report, answer questions about the finances freely, or have accountability built into the church government structure. Bob won’t and doesn’t.
Norris, we are warning you and others out of obedience to Mt. 18 that tells us to do so, and out of love for our brothers and sisters in Christ who would not otherwise know if we did not speak up.
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Hello Katie, Just to answer your question. I am an ordained minister, I lead ” The Lord House of Prayer in Norwalk, Calif. up into 1996 When I disobeyed God and was placed into prison. I truly have grown leaps and bounds since that time. I subscribe to the very doctrine that Calvary Chapel teaches. I believe in the grace of God and the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe it’s the job of the Holy Spirit to maintain that which Christ has started, until the day of redemption. I must attend a church with that type of teaching. I don’t believe we can earn our salvation nor can we work for it. That teaching is prevalent today in churches. Not to get to theological I will check out some of what you offered. God bless and may he richly provide for you and yours. love bro. Lee in-Christ
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Norris Lee I believe you are street smart and I believe you will do your homework. Also check out Neighborhood. I’ m sure you have seen all kinds of deception in prison, don’t be so foolish to think it can’t happen in church. I have read your comments and I believe your heart seeks to know the truth. God bless.
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Norris Lee
You write – @ APRIL 3, 2013 @ 12:31 PM
“May we not assassinate the character of a pastor as if it does not matter.”
Then you write – @ APRIL 4, 2013 @ 10:17 PM…
“I also am a pastor.”
Was wondering…
Todays “Pastor/Leader/Reverend?” Is this a “Title/Position” found in the scriptures?
Or, is that “Title,” A Commandment of Men? A Doctrine of Men? A Tradition of Men? That we are warned about by Jesus?
Mark 7:13 KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
Mark 7:13 ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
Mark 7:13 NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
Have you done your own study, research, on pastors? I mean in the Bible?
What does the Bible say about pastors? Makes an interesting study.
Here are some questions to ask as you check out pastor/leader/reverends.
In the Bible…
How many of His Disciples are called – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples have the “Title” – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples call another Disciple – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples are – Hired, or Fired – as a – pastor/leader/reverend?
And – In the Bible – Which congregations are “led” by a pastor/leader/reverend?
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Hello brothers and sisters. I greet you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. Well A. Amos Love writes are there pastor/leaders/reverend in the church today. Who gave these people the right to call them that. One thing I’ve learned in Christ is to establish a true premise in order to come to the knowledge of the truth. Therefore wrong premise, wrong answer. This is Mr Love position, when interpreting God’s word we must stand on it in it’s context. Yes there are pastor in the church today. According to (eph 4:11) and verse 12 tells us what they are to do. When you read scripture you must, and I mean must consider all other applying scripture which will solidify your text, For example The word Bishop can be found to be an overseer or an elder. Scripture to look at cf acts 20:28, phil 1:1, 1tim 3:2, tit 1:7, 1pet 2:25. We are told that elders are to oversee what God has establish. Scripture to look at, acts 20:28 & 1pet5:1-2. God uses the word Presbytery this also is an elder. The bible tells us there will be an Bishop in every local church acts 14:23. God has establish order in His church through the apostles and prophets they have laid the foundation. (eph 2:20) Now we have three offices where men are placed, that is Evangelist, Pastor and Teachers. According to 1cor 3:10 Apostle Paul say he was a master builder and he laid the foundation of Christ. Now men build on that. (Evangelist, Pastor and Teachers) Now we have to watch how we build on that foundation, because if you’re a false teacher then your work will be burned at the day of Christ. As I write this it is funny to me, because it seems to me Mr Love has a problem submitting. Same problem that the Corinthians church was exhibiting in 1cor 1:12-13. I am a true believer in scripture when it is deciphered in context. For example if I read acts 15:1, I can say, we need to be circumcised in order to be saved. that would be wrong, because if I read the whole scripture it teaches that Paul and Barnabas were disputing that with all there heart. Well i could go on and on, however I will closed with that. One thing I can say for sure Mr. Love is I love to dialect about the word of God. Amen for that.
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Norris – Congratulations on opening a huge can of worms. Pull up a seat. You might be here for a while 🙂 LOL
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Julie Anne
HaHaHaHaHa – Are you calling me a “Wind Bag?” 😉
Only my friends can call me “Wind Bagamus.” 🙂
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Norris Lee
Don’t know if you realize it or NOT – But…
1 – You did NOT answer the questions asked.
2 – You misquoted what I asked and said. But – that’s okay – I’m kinda used to it. 😉
You write…
“Well A. Amos Love writes are there pastor/leaders/reverend in the church today.”
Well – That is NOT what was written – The first question was…
“Was wondering…
Todays “Pastor/Leader/Reverend?” Is this a “Title/Position” found in the scriptures?”
The question was NOT what you write…
“are there pastor/leaders/reverend in the church today.”
The question was…
Todays “Pastor/Leader/Reverend?” Is this a “Title/Position” found in the scriptures?”
These questions only requires a – YES – Or – NO – Answer.
YES – That “Title/Position” is found in the scriptures.
NO – That “Title/Position” is NOT found in the scriptures.
And if the answer is YES – And this is a “Title/Position” found in the scriptures???
Please, show me in the Bible, one of His Disciples called – pastor/leader/reverend.
And you answer with a verse I’m familiar with – Eph 4:11. Which reads in the KJV…
“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers;”
Now – pastors here is plural – and NOT a “Title” – That I asked about.
What I was questioning was the “Title/Postion” – pastor/leader/reverend.
NOT whether the word pastor is in the Bible.
Seems His Disciples were NOT interested in having that “Title/Position”
Because when I search the scriptures I find NO one called – pastor/leader/reverend.
And – the only one I find with the “Title” Shepherd/Leader/Reverend – Is Jesus.
…the Shepherd and Bisop of your soul. 1 Pet 2:25 KJV
Do NOT be called leader – for you have “ONE” leader – Jesus. Mat 23:10 NASB.
Holy and reverend is His Name – Ps 111:9 KJV.
And – Instead of answering the question you went off in another direction…
Talking about – Elders – Bishops – Overseers – which is also a favorite topic. Maybe we can get into Elder/Overseers. Those are tough qualificatios in 1 Tim 3 and Titus.
I would love to know if you qualify to be a pastor/elder/overseer. 😉
And – (You might NOT realize it) – You used a typical response used by
“Pastors who Abuse” and “Pastors addicted to “Exercizing Authority”
When you tried to marginialize me and cause those questions to sound insignificant because they were coming from someone who “has a problem submitting.”
Because you write…
“As I write this it is funny to me,
because it seems to me Mr Love has a problem submitting.”
Well, with out knowing me – you “assassinate my character as if it does not matter.”
It’s okay, I’m kinda used to it. 😉
Could you please answer the questions.
In the Bible…
How many of His Disciples are called – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples have the “Title” – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples call another Disciple – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples are – Hired, or Fired – as a – pastor/leader/reverend?
And – In the Bible – Which congregations are “led” by a pastor/leader/reverend?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Trust me, Amos, I wasn’t only referring to you. This topic seems to come up quite a bit.
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Regrettably it appears brother Lee only wants to be heard. An admitted thief, claiming to be a pastor, is no sooner out on parole than he is on the Internet lecturing everybody on how to read the Bible, among other things. Frankly, I would want to see the fruit of righteousness in his life (feeding the hungry, taking care of widows and orphans, etc.) before I am willing to pay too much attention to anything he has to say.
While I expect that any attempt at a detailed response to brother Lee’s previous post would be useless, I cannot resist the temptation to point out that the passage on which he relies for the proposition that “there will be an [sic] Bishop in every local church” actually speaks of elders, plural, as in more than one elder. Well, I fear that last sentence was wasted–at least insofar any attempt to speak to brother Lee is concerned.
Still, Brother Lee appears to be a good illustration of something I have noticed about the manner in which people who call themselves pastors will often attempt to impose their views. If I point out that the “pastor” is promoting a position that is inconsistent with Scripture, they will simply say that I am taking Scripture out of context. End of conversation, no further explanations required. However, if I go to the effort to actually explain the manner in which a “pastor” is taking Scripture out of context, I am failing to acknowledge the Bible as the inspired, inerrant and authoritative Word of God.
So, in trying to decide who has the better understanding of Scripture in full context, am I more persuaded by brother Amos or by brother Lee? Let me see . . . I do believe I will go with the insight of the brother whose focus is on
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Julie Anne
We are really tracking together often.
I saw the comment by Norris when it was first published at 10:10.
I was writing the response till I posted it – And I shortened it quite a bit. 🙂 🙂
A can of worms – Indeed
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Gary W
That’s the nicest compliment – Thanks
“I do believe I will go with the insight of the brother whose focus is on
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}”
Oh Lord – that my eye would remain single.
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A. Amos,
Please let me expand on the compliment. I have been greatly encouraged just to know that there is somebody out there with whom I can identify on matters relating to ecclesiolatry, er, I mean ecclesiology. For me the journey began when I went to look up the Greek word for office, as in the office of overseer–and discovered that there is no such word in the Greek New Testament!
Plus, there is this. I have begun to steal your stuff. Leaving church, turning to Jesus. Pray, pay, stay and obey.
A hearty thank you!
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Gary W
Yup…
“there will be an [sic] Bishop in every local church”
actually speaks of elders, plural, as in more than one elder.”
And Just where is “Local Church” found in the scriptures??? Hmmm?
Does anyone know what the word ”church” refers to?
In the Bible…
Did anyone ever “Go to Church? Join a Church? Tithe to a Church? Lead a Church? Attend a Church? Give silver, gold, or money to a Church? Pastor a Church? Plant a Church?
And – Yup – Again – I’ve noticed this also…
“if I go to the effort to actually explain the manner in which a “pastor” is taking Scripture out of context, I am failing to acknowledge the Bible as the inspired, inerrant and authoritative Word of God.”
What pastors really mean when they cut you off is…
Do NOT try to confuse me with the Scriptures – My mind is made up. 😉
And like Norris Lee – Pastors do NOT like to answer the tough questions.
Or believe they have to meet the qualifications in 1 tim 3 and Titus.
And another pet peeve is – Are we just allowed to “add words” to the Bible? – Comp – Egal – Calvinist – Armenian – Conservative – Liberal – Baptist – Lutheran – Evangelical – Charismatic – Clergy – Laity – and the list goes on and on and…
These “Titles” are a distraction – And they divide the body of Christ.
And they take you eyes off of Jesus – And put them on – “Mere Fallible Humans.”
And “Titles” for humans NOT in the Bible – Can we “add them” to the scriptures?
Senior pastor – Lead Pastor – Executive Pastor – Youth Pastor – Singles Pastor – Reverend – Holy Reverend – Most Holy Reverend – Rector – Canon – ArchDeacon – Prelate – Doctor – M. Div. – Cardinal – Pope – and on, and on, and…
Titles, Titles, every where – Except in the Bible. My… My… Tsk… Tsk… 😉
Can’t we just use, or refer to, what is written?
Why isn’t the Bible good enough?
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Hallelujah, brothers and sisters, I will pull up my chair and converse with you. I have no problem sharing the word of God in true context. I apologize if I misunderstood your question. So let’s try to answer your question again. Is there a title of pastor, leader or reverend in the bible. Yes, a resounding Yes for Pastor, however I would say no for the other two. Poimen in the Greek translate both Pastor and Shepard, Archipoimen translate Chief Shepard only to be applied to Jesus. So we see that Christ is the Head of the church, however He has place men to lead the church in the capacity of pastors. cf jn 10:16, 1pet 2:25 also Heb 13:20 applies to Christ, Eph 4:11 applies to man. In 1tim 3:1 I have heard the argument that there is no greek word that represent the word office, however if there is an office for a deacon, then there would have to be an office for a bishop in every church. Just as God has establish God, man, woman and child. He has established order in the church. Bishop/Pastor, Teacher, Elders and Presbytery. Now were any of the Disciples called any of these terms. Absolutely no, However why would it be qualification of said office if that person does not exist. Bishop or Deacon. The Disciple/Apostle that were their title, the others were also called apostle but not in the true sense of the meaning, the word translate messenger when applied to those who were disciple by the Apostle. I don’t believe I assassinated your charater I only stated ” your position was wrong” if I must I apologize for that. However I do love to share and learn the word of God. God bless you brother.
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Dear Gary W. I wish not to get into a cat fight with you. However you ask me to share some information with you(and I did) and the next thing you do is use it against me. Gary what are you , since your not an admitted thief. Are you without sin. Brother I not only stole, I cheated and lied and a host of other things.That’s why I’m so thankful for Jesus Christ. He delivered me from such behavior. I now worship him in the beauty of holiness. I don’t sling mud nor will I use information given to me to slander someone. One thing for sure that Christ has done for me is to love my fellow man whether he is christian or not. If he is christian I’m in fellowship with him, if not I’m trying to get him into fellowship with me. So Gary I’m going to count you as a brother who wants to learn how to love.
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Amos,
You ask, “Does anyone know what the word ”church” refers to?”
If you take a look at dictionary.com you will discover that the word church is ultimately derived from the Greek word kurios, which we translate lord. In oh-so-how-many ways can we become so devoted to what we call falsely call church that it becomes our de facto lord? Lots of time and money for “church,” no time or money for Jesus or for those who are “the least of these.” True confession: I convict myself.
To be fair, the dictionary etymologies indicate that the historical use of kurios and its derivatives had reference, if only by inference, to the Lord’s house. Even so, this draws attention to the building called church, whereas we, his children, are His true body and temple. Impressive as they are, how many centuries worth of individual lives were dedicated to the building of the great European cathedrals? How many billions of dollars do we continue to pour into “church” buildings? If only these lives and billions of dollars had been and were being dedicated to our Lord rather than to the building monuments of and to men? How many orphans and widows could have been fed? How many more souls could have been won? How many more lives could actually been transformed into the image of Jesus? How many fewer might be living and dying in despair? And on, and on.
On a couple of occasions I lobbied for the “church” I then attended to do a better job of feeding the poor and healing the broken hearted, etc., On at least those occasions the “pastors” reminded me that, well, the church consists of individual Christians–but only as if to say, don’t be pointing fingers at us “pastors” or at the organizations we promote. These conservations sort of tended to die, and the silence sort of tended to become awkward, when I responded to the effect that, “No, no, the church I am urging on to greater works is the organization that calls itself church and to which the “pastors” demand that I fork over a tenth of my gross income.”
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