Almost Heretical: Women in the Church and Gender Roles

Almost Heretical, Women in the Church, Gender Roles in the Church

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If you believe that God designed hierarchy between husband and wife, that husbands are “over” women, and only women submit to men, not the other way around. I encourage you to listen to this podcast series.

The above used to be what I believed. I didn’t care for it, but I accepted it as God’s way because that is what I was taught and what the Bible seemed to say. There are church groups/pastors who listen to other leaders, listen to traditions of their church’s denomination, give credence to translations of the Bible by all-male translators. In adhering to those church traditions and interpretations, women have been silenced and limited in what they can do and say in the church and in their marriages.

I used to have a hard time reading Paul’s letters (Ephesians, Colossians, etc), because of how it seemed he also limited women and put restrictions on them.

Now, after doing a lot more reading from Biblical scholars, professors of theology, I have challenged what was taught to me.

I never saw Jesus limiting women in the Bible. He elevated women. Always. Now, after looking through a different lens of interpretation, I see that Paul has also done the same. The verses in which I thought Paul was limiting women, I now believe the opposite. This has been life-changing for me, and has brought a new love for Christ and His message for the Body of Christ.

This is a great podcast to listen to if you are interested in challenging yourself in this area. Don’t let the name of the podcast, Almost Heretical, turn you off. It’s just a couple of guys who have challenged some of the teachings that have left a sour taste in their mouths. Nate Hanson and Tim Ritter are former pastors who understand spiritual abuse, the harm done to Christian women, and want to show that you don’t have to “do” Christianity in a way that conflicts with your heart. I think many in my reading audience will be able to resonate with their messages.

Listen here: Almost Heretical Series on Gender

504 comments on “Almost Heretical: Women in the Church and Gender Roles

  1. Lea,

    I responded to Daisy after she shared an interesting stat about criminals being mostly men when I asked:
    “Is it because men are wired to be more physically and mentally more aggressive not just in criminal circumstances but in non-criminal circumstances?”

    Then Japan makes a rather strange comment about me being horrifically insulting to men when he wrote:
    “Please tell me that you don’t really believe this, D. It’s horrifically insulting to men.”

    What I asked Daisy wasn’t horrific or insulting to men, it was a question I had to Daisy, for which she suggested the reason men are the way they are is because they have more testosterone.

    Japan’s question was a leading question in that I was being horrific, which is insulting.

    Like

  2. D said,

    I don’t deny there is cultural pressure, but not all the time. Which is what I have been talking about.

    This is not the impression I get from your posts.

    You seem to heavily and regularly deny the amount of societal messages girls get even while in grade school that boys do not receive, messages which, yes, can and do influence many girls later in life, and as they are going thru the educational system.

    I even gave you research articles above that bear this out – that what girls are taught when younger, and teacher bias against girls in classes, impacts which careers girls choose when they go into college.

    One reason I shied away from taking more math and science when I was in college and high school is that I had picked up the message from TV shows, movies, family members, teachers, and schools, that math and science are for boys, and that girls are not as good at those subjects as boys.

    Like

  3. D said

    Mark is making an assumption I never made, with exception this is a “free country” when he wrote: “But to put words in D’s mouth, this is a “free” country, and obviously men must be more “willing” to be pastors than women.”

    I don’t think Mark was so much putting words in your mouth as he was (accurately) paraphrasing your position thus far.

    You have indicated that the one and only reason women would ever want to enter Career X is because they LOVE Career X, it’s a free country, nobody puts a gun to a woman’s head and “forces” her to enter Career X. Women only enter Career X because they want to, just like your female cousins and auntie who works in Career X, all American women are just like your female friends and family.

    That is a summary of your position.

    Like

  4. D said

    Daisy, there is an obvious discrepancy in certain professions,

    Which is due in part to gender role expectations (and other factors, such as job availability in one’s area, amount of pay, etc).

    D said

    … especially in the case of women leading a church, I do believe there is a lot of cultural and biblical pressure that is preventing women from leadership positions in a church.

    And that is also true of “secular” jobs, such as, but not limited to, the teaching profession.

    D said

    I do see barriers being broken in that women are getting elected into Congress and the Senate, America nearly had a women become President for the first time, we have CEO’s that are women. in my case, my current boss of 10 years, is a woman, best boss I ever had.

    That women have made strides in some sectors of life in the U.S.A. does not mean that sexist gender role expectations and sexism magically ceased to exist.

    Just look at all the “Me Too” stories coming out of Hollywood and the world of Journalism – some of those stories stretch from the 1960s to the present day.

    For example, this woman was basically forced out of her TV career due to this sexist idiot, Les Moonves:
    _‘Designing Women’ Creator Goes Public With Les Moonves War: Not All Harassment Is Sexual (Guest Column)_

    Linda Bloodworth Thomason, one of CBS’ biggest hitmakers, reveals the disgraced mogul kept her shows off the air for seven years: “People asked me for years, ‘What happened to you?’ Les Moonves happened to me.”

    Les Moonves also had singer Janet Jackson black-balled from the entertainment business as best he could starting around the 1990s because he was angry with her refusal not to grovel to him for her “wardrobe malfunction,” and it dented her career for years afterwards.

    The United States may be a better or safer nation for women to live in than some others, but the USA still has problems with sexism in the workplace and in discouraging girls and women from entering certain careers.

    Like

  5. D said

    Then Japan makes a rather strange comment about me being horrifically insulting to men when he wrote:
    “Please tell me that you don’t really believe this, D. It’s horrifically insulting to men.”

    What I asked Daisy wasn’t horrific or insulting to men, it was a question I had to Daisy, for which she suggested the reason men are the way they are is because they have more testosterone.

    Japan’s question was a leading question in that I was being horrific, which is insulting.

    I was doing a parody of your posts.

    Here it is again, please see this post I did on page 1 of this comment section:
    _Daisy’s Reply to D_

    I’m not the one propagating or defending sexist gendered stereotypes about men and women, D – you’re the one who has been doing that for days now.

    That was what my parody post was demonstrating, except I gave you a taste of your own medicine and turned it around on you.

    It was also to show you how ridiculous and wrong your views about women are.

    Like

  6. D said,

    What I asked Daisy wasn’t horrific or insulting to men, it was a question I had to Daisy, for which she suggested the reason men are the way they are is because they have more testosterone.

    That’s not what I said, nor is that my view about men.

    I refer you again to _this post of mine_

    You are the one who has been suggesting since the start of this conversation that you prefer female teachers to male ones, because all to most men are bad at teaching kids, because they are all supposedly more “naturally aggressive” than women.

    Like

  7. D said (to Lea, I believe),

    Japan’s question was a leading question in that I was being horrific, which is insulting.

    SKIJ didn’t say anything insulting to you or about you, though, but was saying your opinion was insulting towards men.

    SKIJ was quite right that you agreeing with the premise that men are “wired to be more aggressive than women” is insulting to men – which it kind of is,

    And such a view or belief absolves men from taking responsibility for their actions, if they can just say,
    “Well, I can’t help that I hit and beat kids, women, and sometimes other men – it’s how I was born, after all. God created me this way, and it’s all that darned testosterone! So give me a pass!”

    Like

  8. Daisy,

    You referenced: D said, I don’t deny there is cultural pressure, but not all the time. Which is what I have been talking about.

    Then you wrote: This is not the impression I get from your posts.

    This is what is happening, all of us are writing on top of each other, getting different vibes and impressions from one another.

    I have repeatedly suggested that I didn’t deny cultural pressure existed. It be like me saying that you said all female teachers are culturally pressured into becoming teachers, when both of us know that isn’t the case.

    I’m making the case that most women in this day and age aren’t feeling as much cultural pressure to teach and you are making the case about the ones that are feeling pressure.

    Like

  9. D – “I’m not insulting you, this is a discussion.”

    SKIJ’s point was that saying men are naturally more violent is insulting. To all men, not just SKIJ. It’s like the modesty argument that somehow showing thighs or cleavage is enough to make otherwise godly men turn into lustful maniacs.

    If you have an open mind… those sorts of “Old Wives’ Tales” are being consistently destroyed by further study. For example, the biggest cause of men being lustful maniacs has little to do with dress and much more to do with an oversexualized male entitlement culture. In the same way, men are being raised in a male violence privilege culture.

    It depends a lot on the messages we hear. I went to a comp church, but the overarching message was be kind to each other, you worthless worm food. That was NOT the message to the authorities. The message to authorities was, you can do no wrong unless your doctrine is off. So, not surprising that there was not a lot of peer abuse, but as soon as someone got into power… watch out! Of course, there was a lot of butt-kissing to get into positions of power, but that’s beside the point.

    D – “I don’t deny there is cultural pressure, but not all the time. Which is what I have been talking about.”

    I found a lot of conservative types don’t really get “shades of grey”, as it were. So, someone says “cultural pressure” and it’s either in-your-face discrimination or nothing. Of course, if it’s your ego, it can be very, very touchy to even the slightest hint of being demeaned. Like a backhanded compliment, but when it comes to, for example, women and occupation. Unless someone held a gun to their head or they faced obvious discrimination, like men slamming the door on occupation after occupation, then there was no “cultural pressure”. You did an exhaustive interview of your Aunt and confirmed that to be true.

    But, what toys were bought for her? The little schoolhouse or a construction set? Books or hammers? Dolls or Legos?

    What things she did were encouraged? Did her family ooh and aah over the outfits she dressed her dolls in, or A’s on her math tests? Was she praised for taking things apart even if she couldn’t get them back together? If she did start a task and get frustrated, did someone patiently work her through it, or did they take it away, fix it and give it back?

    Enigmatically, people are pretty brilliant at adopting social patterns, even though they may be bafflingly idiotic in other ways. For example, did you put your kids through telephone communication training school, or did the listen and watch and imitate? Did you have to walk them through what school would look like and how to interact with teachers, or did they figure it out?

    For example, the baby exploring an unfamiliar living room has already generally learned what subtle cues to listen and look for. So, the baby walks up to an object, looks at you, and figures out based on your expression whether it’s okay or not to play with that object. Sometime the object is too tempting to heed the parents, but the point is that baby can pick up the slightest concern on your face. They have a pretty good radar for when you’re stressed or upset or angry. Most compliant kids have figured out how to maintain the status quo in the house – how to please you – without you having to explain in exhaustive detail.

    Now, you are imagining that somehow women are completely oblivious and unswayed by the subtle cues of trusted people in their circles, and you are imagining that someone who has opinions of what women should and shouldn’t do can completely avoid showing that through tone or expression or even hinting one way or another?

    I did job interviews at a former company. No one ever said that we weren’t allowed to tell any bad things about the company, but for some reason, my co-workers and I knew it wasn’t okay. We could, potentially, hint at some issues. Again, no one held a gun to my head and said, “don’t spill the beans on bad stuff here”, but through “cultural pressure” it was pretty well communicated.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. D said

    I’m making the case that most women in this day and age aren’t feeling as much cultural pressure to teach and you are making the case about the ones that are feeling pressure.

    I disagree with the “most” modifier.

    Even in the year 2018, “most” girls and women are still receiving sexist messages about what careers or interests they should or should not pursue – from school, parents, movies, churches, teachers, etc.
    And there are studies that bears this out, this is not just my opinion saying this.
    (see my links on first page for the research)

    Are you a girl, D?
    No, you are not. On this blog you have identified as being a man.

    You were not raised as a girl.
    I, however, am a woman and used to be a girl.

    As a MAN you have no idea what sorts of subtle (and sometimes overt) messages we women get from movies, books, magazines, preachers, teachers, TV, shows, etc, of what is expected from us due to being girls / women.

    Look up the term “Man-splain.”
    Even as adult women past the year 2000, you can find testimony after testimony of women saying how many men ASSUME all to most women are dummies and don’t know anything about math, guns, sports, etc.

    Just saw a conversation among many women about this on Twitter today.

    A woman said a man struck up a conversation with her adult kid, her kid is an adult female.

    Dude said to her adult daughter, “How long you been with this airline”
    She said, “four years”
    His reply to her, “Oh, as a flight attendant”
    Her reply “No, I am a pilot”

    This ding bat man was wrongly assuming that the young lady was a flight attendant when in fact she is a PILOT for the airline.

    Why? All because she was simply a woman. In his world, a woman can never be a pilot must be a flight attendant. You have been making the same assumptions about men, women, and teaching as a career up and down this entire thread.

    This kind of insulting bullsh-t, these sexist assumptions, happens all the time, and mostly, to women.
    This is something most men will not experience due to their gender.

    (Except on this thread, you are kind of also pulling the inverse, saying men should not be teachers because they are not as “gentle” as women.)

    Like

  11. If anyone would like to read the original Tweet that got many women to sharing their experiences, you can read it here:
    _The Tweet_

    As you can see if you scroll down that thread, some women report that sometimes some OTHER WOMEN buy into sexist stereotypes too, is how pervasive sexism is.

    Other examples from that twitter thread:

    Comment by Kat Warner

    <

    blockquote>I’ve always looked young and when I was working In a pharmacy a man had asked me why I wasn’t in school, did my parents know I was skipping school.

    I was 33 married w/ 3 little kids.

    When I told him I graduated many yrs ago he was embarrassed

    <

    blockquote> comment by Cherry

    My desk is near the door of our office and clients mostly refuse to accept I am *not* the receptionist.

    No, Bill – I actually help create content for apps, do wireframe, and manage all of our marketing so no I’m not going to “run up and make you a copy” of anything.

    Carly S replied to that:

    I asked to be moved from the desk near the door in my software development office because of this.

    I still get it simply because I face towards the door.

    Delivery people will walk past 2-3 guys to speak to me

    comment by

    comment by

    Here is an example of woman- on- woman ‘sexism’
    (because many women are just as steeped in accepting sexist gender stereotypes as are men):

    Comment by Mermaid Pearlie Mae

    Testing a new monofin I designed and built, at the gym pool…

    Later, in the gym locker room:

    Random WOMAN, who was my age: What is that?

    Me: It’s a swim fin I designed. I was testing it.

    RW: Oh. Did your husband make that for you?

    Me: –

    (PS: That was two years ago and I’m still mad about it.)

    comment by Indigo However :

    My car mechanic, for years, would say
    “well, take it home, talk to your husband about it”,

    every time I’d say “hey, still not married. Still a single mom”.

    And he’d look sheepish. Now my kids ask me why I go to the same car guy and I say “I don’t want to have to train a new one.

    Another woman on woman example
    (because our culture also causes women to really internalize all these stupid gender stereotypes too, not just men):
    comment by Sam I Am:

    I am a female IT.

    Customer who is also a female IT would not do the things I was asking her to do.

    Turned ticket over to male co-worker.

    He asked her to do the same exact things and she did.

    How can we get respect from men when women in the same field won’t even Respect Us?

    comment by

    comment by

    Like

  12. More examples from that Twitter thread of men (and sometimes women) making sexist assumptions about women’s careers or knowledge:

    Laura Mater said,

    My advisor is a PhD in Hebrew Biblical Studies and also looks very young for her age.

    She gets talked down to at academic conferences all the time and she says the best part is all the old dudes faces when they figure out SHE’S the one doing the panel

    One Fine Morning said,

    My brother (a nurse) assisting a patient in A&E:

    Patient: Thanks for everything doctor.

    My brother: I’m not a doctor, I’m a nurse.

    Patient: Ok doctor.

    Can’t find it right now, but when I was reading that Twitter thread earlier today, a woman doctor said a man kept mistaking her for a nurse and asking when the doctor would be in. And she kept telling the guy, “I AM THE DOCTOR.”

    Nicole C said,

    I work part time doing sales at Menards in the plumbing department.
    A guy asked me “what’s the difference between these 3 toilet flappers? They’re different prices” (by like a dollar)
    and I said “they’re different brands” and he said “are you sure? Is there a man I can talk to?”

    Capt Apoc said,

    Early 90’s I installed CAT 5 cable, etc. at Princeton University.
    Walking down the hall with full tool belt carrying a power saw with keyhole bit attached and a group of older men in suits walked by me. One stopped and asked if I was a maid.
    He was absolutely serious

    KP said,

    On Veterans Day, there are lots of places that have discounts, freebies, etc…
    At a movie theater, my husband says 1 adult and 1 Veteran please. Attendant thanks him for his service. Husband points to me and says, “not me, her.”

    Greta said,

    When my sis was abt 13, she and my mom were buying a textbook in a bookstore and a guy asked “are you going to be a nurse?”
    and while my mom told this story like it was funny that he thought she was old enough for college,
    I was just thinking “why couldn’t she be a doctor?”

    Like

  13. I wasn’t even looking for articles about teachers but saw this in my social media feed today:

    _‘I Work 3 Jobs And Donate Blood Plasma to Pay the Bills.’ This Is What It’s Like to Be a Teacher in America_ – via TIME magazine, Sept. 2018 article.

    Hope Brown can make $60 donating plasma from her blood cells twice in one week, and a little more if she sells some of her clothes at a consignment store.

    It’s usually just enough to cover an electric bill or a car payment.

    This financial juggling is now a part of her everyday life—something she never expected almost two decades ago when she earned a master’s degree in secondary education and became a high school history teacher.

    Brown often works from 5 a.m. to 4 p.m. at her school in Versailles, Ky., then goes to a second job manning the metal detectors and wrangling rowdy guests at Lexington’s Rupp Arena.

    …That has become the rallying cry of many of America’s public-school teachers, who have staged walkouts and marches on six state capitols this year.

    From Arizona to Oklahoma, in states blue, red and purple, teachers have risen up to demand increases in salaries, benefits and funding for public education.

    Their outrage has struck a chord, reviving a national debate over the role and value of teachers and the future of public education.

    For many teachers, this year’s uprising is decades in the making. The country’s roughly 3.2 million full-time public-school teachers (kindergarten through high school) are experiencing some of the worst wage stagnation of any profession, earning less on average, in inflation-­adjusted dollars, than they did in 1990, according to Department of Education (DOE) data.

    Contrast that with D’s earlier comments on this thread about teaching:

    I’m sure the ones that decide to teach find it easier to have kids, because they get more personal, sick leave, breaks their students get,

    which means they are home with their kids (including summers) more than they would be working a regular job.

    The amount of time off with pay/benefits and retirement makes teaching attractive.

    My aunt is enjoying a rather cozy retirement from teaching in Folsom and travels the world once a year. She felt no cultural pressure to teach.

    It’s possible your aunt “felt no pressure” because she had already internalized her culture’s belief that “teaching is for women” and so she didn’t regard it as being pressured.

    I too was brought up that same way, assuming that certain behaviors were just normal for women.
    It’s not until later in life I realized it was social indoctrination, it was sexist, and yes, a form of pressure to make women think they are only meant, or cut out for, certain jobs, like teaching.

    Like

  14. Mark,

    I like your baby analogy. I think it can be interpreted a number of ways I’m sure, but the one thing that sticks to my mind is kids are learning their boundaries whether at first they are trying to please or they are trying to expand those boundaries as far as they can, which sometimes means crossing those boundaries in order to discover what boundaries their individual parents have.

    But then if a child manages to find an electrical outlet without a protective plug in it and has a fork in his/her hands, I’m going take it away and probably give them a firm warning, possibly a startling but non-painful tap on their fingers, “that’s a no-no” and “don’t to do that again”.

    But I’m also the type that doesn’t like cribs, especially the higher ones, because a child will eventually climb over them, some have been severely injured.

    I’m sure some would think I wasn’t strict enough while others would think I’m too strict.

    I will admit, when my son finished High School he didn’t hardly do much except do some commercial fishing during the summers as it was hard to have a vision or embrace goals when 10 million Americans lost their jobs during the economic meltdown.

    Am I culturally pressuring him by discussing the Pros and Cons of the choices he makes, whether he likes it or not?

    So am I culturally pressuring him regardless of circumstances that he needs to do more than just sitting around for 9 months out of the year, that he should actually start embracing a vision or do something? Whether it he decides to work at Wal-Mart for the rest of his life or go to a trade school, work at a homeless shelter, go crabbing in the Bering Sea or go to a 4 year college? (which he did, recently getting an English Degree)

    With options being limited during the last 12 years, I think kids feel a lot of cultural pressure into making career choices that is self-sustainable and those jobs can be very competitive depending on geographic locations.

    So yeah, Mark I’ll admit my kids are swimming in Cultural Pressure.

    Like

  15. Daisy,

    My aunt wanted to teach, in fact the desire to teach was so strong in the Sacramento, that she went through interim and substitute teaching for 3 years before landing a job.

    My family are liberals, nothing forced on them, no cultural pressure.

    I know some teachers endure some hardships like in all professions. I can say if things are hard on teachers in parts of the US, it probably is a lot harder for non-union labor jobs.

    If the teacher you are referring is living in the San Francisco Bay Area or Orange County or NYC (or expensive housing markets) they may struggling because the median home prices in those places are well above 1 million and median rent is nearly 4,000.00. But then we have the Federal Reserve to thank, as their easy money policy kept home values from finding a natural bottom.

    Like

  16. D – “It be like me saying that you said all female teachers are culturally pressured into becoming teachers, when both of us know that isn’t the case.”

    It is the case. The pressure may be more or less intense, but you’ve already acknowledged that this is a cultural phenomenon. In Norway and Japan, men are much more likely to be primary school teachers.

    Now, I don’t understand how you can wave away the fact that 97% of kindergarten teachers in the US being women means that women are naturally better kindergarten teachers than men, but the ratio closer to 60/40 in Norway and Japan are due to… occupational differences. Either women are better at teaching young children or they’re not. You can’t have it both ways. If you believe that women are better at teaching kindergarten, you have that preference for your grandchildren, and you served on a school board, I would be greatly surprised if that bias hasn’t come out one way or another. Even stating your preference here is a form of “cultural pressure” because a man or woman reading your preference will see it as an encouragement or discouragement regarding teaching kindergarteners.

    Maybe it’s like my last post. You don’t really acknowledge that publicly stating your preference is a form of cultural pressure. I’ve seen that with abuse. I’ve had parents acknowledge that they’ve physically disciplined “in anger”, but they say they would never “abuse” their children. Unfortunately, they’ve already admitted to abuse. Maybe it’s not the severity we think of when we imagine abuse, but it’s still abusive. Just like sexual harassment doesn’t have to be big and blatant. It can be a long-term pattern, but it can also be small things that make women feel uncomfortable.

    And, as a corollary, a long-term pattern of behaviors that encourage women towards certain roles and away from certain roles can still be significant cultural pressure, even though your specific piece of that may be seemingly inconsequential.

    In Norway, at least, the ratio is due to a societal push to remove perceived gender barriers from occupations. They seem to acknowledge that the teacher training is the same for both men and women, and both complete it successfully, so it would be odd if somehow women were more qualified.

    In Norway, they acknowledge that there is an underlying cultural assumption that women are naturally more nurturing, and that has a general influence on women and men choosing to be primary school teachers. I don’t understand how, in the U.S. we’ve magically and mysteriously shielded some large proportion of women from that underlying cultural assumption so that they can “willfully” choose their occupations. The statistics seem to show otherwise – women are being HEAVILY influenced by our underlying cultural assumptions.

    Like

  17. D – “Am I culturally pressuring him by discussing the Pros and Cons of the choices he makes, whether he likes it or not?”

    Yes, because behind the pros and cons of the choices is also your gender bias.

    Like

  18. Mark,

    What gender bias are you talking about, At the time he was kicking back, I wouldn’t have cared where he found a job.

    What bias are you talking about, that I didn’t include in my list of him working in the lingerie store like Victoria Secret, where I’m sure the majority of those jobs are being filled by women?

    This is turning pretty silly and we are really splitting hairs here, but for the sake of satisfying your curiosity, I would support his decision if he got a job like that.

    I’m not sure if I’m reading you right, are you suggesting all women that teach are culturally pressured to teach?

    Like

  19. This is where the naive part comes back in… so, you are saying that you are completely unbiased in every way?

    I’m saying that all people are pressured into gender-acceptable roles. Some are more influenced by that pressure and some less so, but the pressure is there. Among other things, the comp. church talks about women’s role being centered in the home, so obviously roles that are more compatible with raising a family (ahem, elementary school teacher) are going to be encouraged. Of course, the ideal is the stay-at-home-mom, which is encouraged unless the family cannot make ends meet without a second income.

    I’m also saying that all people are biased. It’s like Garrison Keiller (sp?) he says, “Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above average”. The point being a subtle jab that all parents are biased towards assuming that their children are at least better than most others, but that is clearly impossible.

    Some bias is cute – like every parent thinking their baby is the cutest around. Some bias is not so cute – like seeing a black guy wearing a hoodie and assuming that he’s a delinquent or criminal. (e.g. George Zimmerman). Some bias is glaringly obvious like sports fans, some bias is not so obvious, like Freakonomics showing that first names indicate social status, and how resumes can be rejected simply because a first name sounds black or white trashy.

    So, people that are naively unaware or even actively hostile to the idea that they have bias are also the ones who don’t realize that they need to take steps to protect others from their bias. So, for example, someone who is going to be biased against certain socioeconomic statuses should probably get resumes with that sort of info redacted.

    I had one bias I didn’t realize until it hit me pretty squarely in the face… As I said, I went to a top grad school. I had a classmate from Texas. He had a pretty thick southern accent. So, sharp guy, but every time he talked, I had to actively suppress the “redneck” stereotype. You know the one where all the TV shows and movies show people with that accent being dumb as a rock – like Barney Fife, Roscoe P Coaltrain, Beverly Hillbillies, Forrest Gump and the list goes on.

    Like

  20. Mark,

    At first we are talking about me motivating my son to not sitting around and find something to do that is self-sustaining and you seemed to be connecting it with cultural pressure. Then you asserted me of gender bias when I named a few of many options I told him that he had, with exception that doing nothing is not a good choice. (he was 20 at the time)

    Then I asked you if you felt all women who were teachers were socially pressured to teach, which you didn’t answer.

    Old fashioned Comp philosophies of the “women’s place is in the home” is fading further and further off into the sunset, as most husbands and wives in this economy are forced to work in order to make ends meat.

    In many of those cases where both spouses are working, they have young kids that have to go to expensive day care a place that aren’t going to get the love, they would at home with their parents.

    Ideally many parents wish that either the husband or the wife had a large enough salary where one or the other could stay home with the kids and take on domestic duties, which by itself is a full-time job.

    I remember in the late 60’s and throughout the 70’s my mom and step father worked full time jobs and then come home exhausted and sometimes one or the other being fatigued and irritable as their day was far from over having to tend to the kids and domestic duties and even though I carried a heavy load from age 10 to 18, (mainly laundry, ironing, vacuuming and doing the dishes for a family of 6) I know it took a toll on their bodies as it turned their marriage into a mundane almost lifeless relationship.

    Because I don’t hang out in Comp churches, the only marriages where I see one spouse or the other staying home and taking care of the domestic duties are the ones with their spouse making a salary large enough to live very comfortably. The rest of us need duel paychecks and have to work hard on the job and then go home and work hard again.

    Like

  21. I don’t have time right now to read all posts made since I was last here, only skimmed a bit of Mark’s posts above.

    For D:

    Online Tests to Determine How Much Unconcious Bias You Have, Re: Sexism

    __

    __

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  22. Sorry that posted before I was ready. Try this again.

    I took one of these tests a few years ago, and even I, a woman, adhere to some sexist notions – that is how much sexism gets entrenched into a person, when even the people most affected by it and harmed by it internalize it.

    When you are raised in a sexist culture, sexism and all its underlying assumptions about women, appears to be normal, good, and okay.

    And D wants Mark or me to think he has zero bias? HA HA HA HA HA HA. Riiiiight.

    For D:

    Online Tests to Determine How Much Unconcious Bias You Have, Re: Sexism

    Article about one of the tests:
    _Are you SEXIST but don’t realise it? Take the test that can reveal your ‘unconscious bias’_

    You may have to provide an e-mail address on this page to access the test – click the link at the bottom that says “I wish to proceed”:
    _Implicit Association Test_

    Like

  23. _Think You’re Free From Unconscious Bias? Think Again._

    Very long article, but D should totally read this, all the way to the bottom:
    _Test Yourself for Hidden Bias_

    Snippets (part 1) from that article:

    HOW ARE OUR BIASES REINFORCED?

    Once learned, stereotypes and prejudices resist change, even when evidence fails to support them or points to the contrary.

    People will embrace anecdotes that reinforce their biases, but disregard experience that contradicts them. The statement “Some of my best friends are _____” captures this tendency to allow some exceptions without changing our bias.

    HOW DO WE PERPETUATE BIAS?

    Bias is perpetuated by conformity with in-group attitudes and socialization by the culture at large. The fact that white culture is dominant in America may explain why people of color often do not show a strong bias favoring their own ethnic group.

    Mass media routinely take advantage of stereotypes as shorthand to paint a mood, scene or character. The elderly, for example, are routinely portrayed as being frail and forgetful, while younger people are often shown as vibrant and able.

    Stereotypes can also be conveyed by omission in popular culture, as when TV shows present an all-white world.

    Psychologists theorize bias conveyed by the media helps to explain why children can adopt hidden prejudices even when their family environments explicitly oppose them.

    About Hidden Bias
    Scientific research has demonstrated that biases thought to be absent or extinguished remain as “mental residue” in most of us.

    Studies show people can be consciously committed to egalitarianism, and deliberately work to behave without prejudice, yet still possess hidden negative prejudices or stereotypes.

    “Implicit Association Tests” (IATs) can tap those hidden, or automatic, stereotypes and prejudices that circumvent conscious control.

    Project Implicit—a collaborative research effort between researchers at Harvard University, the University of Virginia, and University of Washington—offers dozens of such tests. …

    Like

  24. (continued)
    _Test Yourself for Hidden Bias_

    Snippets (part 2) from that article:

    BIASES AND BEHAVIOR

    A growing number of studies show a link between hidden biases and actual behavior.

    In other words, hidden biases can reveal themselves in action, especially when a person’s efforts to control behavior consciously flags under stress, distraction, relaxation or competition.

    Unconscious beliefs and attitudes have been found to be associated with language and certain behaviors such as eye contact, blinking rates and smiles.

    Studies have found, for example, that school teachers clearly telegraph prejudices, so much so that some researchers believe children of color and white children in the same classroom effectively receive different educations.

    A now classic experiment showed that white interviewers sat farther away from black applicants than from white applicants, made more speech errors and ended the interviews 25% sooner.
    Such discrimination has been shown to diminish the performance of anyone treated that way, whether black or white.

    The Effects of Prejudice and Stereotypes

    Hidden bias has emerged as an important clue to the disparity between public opinion, as expressed by America’s creed and social goals, and the amount of discrimination that still exists.

    ….A person who carries the stigma of group membership must be prepared for its debilitating effects.

    …Similarly, studies found that when college women are reminded their group is considered bad at math, their performance may fulfill this prophecy.

    These shadows hang over stigmatized people no matter their status or accomplishments.
    They must remain on guard and bear an additional burden that may affect their self-confidence, performance and aspirations.

    These stigmas have the potential to rob them of their individuality and debilitate their attempts to break out of stereotypical roles.

    LEARNED AT AN EARLY AGE

    The first step may be to admit biases are learned early and are counter to our commitment to just treatment.

    Parents, teachers, faith leaders and other community leaders can help children question their values and beliefs and point out subtle stereotypes used by peers and in the media. Children should also be surrounded by cues that equality matters.

    Like

  25. _Think you’re all for gender equality? Your unconscious may have other ideas_

    Wonderful people

    Women are wonderful, or are they?

    You may be surprised to learn that research reports that we consistently prefer women over men and mothers over fathers implicitly.

    This is akin to the WAW (“women-are-wonderful”) effect – women being perceived positively on the whole as they are stereotyped as supportive, nice and gentle.

    This effect, however, disappears, and even reverses, the moment women step in to the “male domain” or otherwise challenge stereotypical expectations.

    For example, people implicitly (and explicitly) prefer male to female authority figures, male to female leaders and non-feminist women to feminists.

    My own research shows that female students implicitly prefer housewives over businesswomen.

    The implicit pro-female preference also reverses in men when they expect to interact with a superior woman as opposed to an equal or subordinate one.

    Unconscious bias limits, among others, people’s occupational prospects. The first step to deal with this is an awareness of the problem

    …However, since unconscious bias has its roots in the social world we live – where we learn associations from the gender roles we see around us – the surest way to diminish it is to provide alternative associations.

    This could be achieved by encouraging equal participation of men and women across traditionally gendered social roles.

    Like

  26. A caveat on the IAT test (the racism version), via _Vox_:

    But here’s the thing: It turns out the IAT might not tell individuals much about their individual bias.

    According to a growing body of research and the researchers who created the test and maintain it at the Project Implicit website, the IAT is not good for predicting individual biases based on just one test.

    It requires a collection — an aggregate — of tests before it can really make any sort of conclusions.

    “It can predict things in the aggregate, but it cannot predict behavior at the level of an individual” who took the test once, Calvin Lai, a postdoctoral fellow at Harvard University and director of research at Project Implicit, told me.

    For individuals, this means they would have to take the test many times — maybe dozens of times — and average out the results to get a clear indication of their bias and potentially how that bias guides behavior.

    Perhaps that would apply to the gender / sexism version too.

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  27. I had one bias I didn’t realize until it hit me pretty squarely in the face… As I said, I went to a top grad school. I had a classmate from Texas. He had a pretty thick southern accent. So, sharp guy, but every time he talked, I had to actively suppress the “redneck” stereotype.

    Hi Mark! This one is pretty common. Smart southerners use being underestimated to their advantage. (southern, went to a school further north, got a lot of this 😉

    Like

  28. Daisy,

    I didn’t say that bias didn’t exist, Mark changed the subject when I was talking about my son needing to do something with his life.

    I can tell one bias I have, which is someone who has really bad teeth, which is a symptom who is a drug addict. I know that not all have who has bad teeth is a drug addict, but it enters my mind, whether they can hold down a job or can’t.

    I have another bias with you and Mark is you and he appear to be ignoring economic hardships that hit the American economy and how difficult it is for spouses raising kids and both forced to work. Then they have to go home and take care of domestic duties, which can be a full time job by itself. This lifestyle made the marriage of my mom and stepdad a lifeless relationship as they were constantly fatigued.

    My bias with you and Mark is that you don’t seem too concerned. Most of those couples are too busy and too tired trying to survive and don’t think about what is going on in Comp churches because most of them don’t have anything to do with Comp churches.

    Another bias I have, is that it wouldn’t surprise me if Mark and possibly you, is more financially independent than spouses forced to work, as you and he haven’t responded or simply don’t care to what I went through growing up.

    I have said many times, that there is very few that think the women’s place is the home, like what is going on in Comp churches. And probably there is a fair amount of those that are married where both spouses that are forced to work.

    Another bias I have, are those that act like they care about social justice, but embrace politically correct policies, that effectively make things worse on the people they claim to care about the most.

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  29. I think our point is that it’s inescapable. When I shop for something on Amazon, I read the reviews. No matter what the product is, there are positive and negative reviews. I’m sure the negative reviewers, based on their experience, would be steering people away from the product.

    No, if they had a negative experience, does it mean that the product is therefore bad? Probably not, because maybe there are 1000 reviews and 999 are positive, and the one bad review was a person who had unrealistic expectations.

    So, for example, I had a relatively bad experience in college. Some of it was the interaction of my personality with the culture at the college. Some of it I would say was incompetence of college personnel. I’ve steered people away. Maybe I steered people away that would have had a great experience there. Maybe the college has changed as administration and professors have retired or left. Am I “biased” in my evaluation of the college? Probably, and I probably lump many or most of the religiously-affiliated colleges into the same category. So, my kids will probably NOT go to a religiously-affiliated college because of my experience and bias – even though the “perfect” college for them may be exactly that.

    My wife and I steered each other away from public schooling our kids. She because she was homeschooled and thought it was pretty good, me because I was public schooled and had issues. Public schooling was really the best option for our eldest child, but we avoided it for her first three years of school.

    So, we’re in a free country where people willingly make decisions, but those decisions are obviously skewed by the people whose experiences and insight we trust. I think we have to pull off the rose-colored glasses and realize that some things we have internalized are just false.

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  30. D – “I didn’t say that bias didn’t exist, Mark changed the subject when I was talking about my son needing to do something with his life.”

    Changed the subject how? You are pontificating about how you have no bias… Because you’re “okay” with your son working at Victoria’s Secret? You changed the subject and I was trying to get you back on track.

    Saying “This is where the naive part comes back in… so, you are saying that you are completely unbiased in every way?” was EXACTLY on point. You’re trying to create a little bubble where, maybe Anne down the street was culturally influenced by her comp church to become a teacher, but not your liberal aunt, and definitely you would not ever do something like that.

    But, then we go back to the fact that you PUBLICLY STATED A PREFERENCE FOR FEMALE KINDERGARTEN TEACHERS.

    So, here you are on your soapbox saying that you are immune from cultural bias when you’ve proclaimed your cultural bias from the rooftops.

    Maybe, just maybe, you would realize that “wanting a female kindergarten teacher for your 5yo granddaughter” is “cultural bias”, and that publicly stating that bias is “cultural pressure”, so despite thinking you’re like Mary Poppins – “practically perfect in every way” you continue to ignore and evade being called out on YOUR CULTURAL BIAS and YOUR CULTURAL PRESSURE.

    Like

  31. But, then we go back to the fact that you PUBLICLY STATED A PREFERENCE FOR FEMALE KINDERGARTEN TEACHERS. So, here you are on your soapbox saying that you are immune from cultural bias when you’ve proclaimed your cultural bias from the rooftops.

    Right, Mark? I almost said the same again (pretty sure it was already pointed out) but I figured it was pointless.

    Like

  32. Mark, it was you that proclaimed that I was saying I had no bias, when I said I would support my son’s decision where-ever he found a job.

    I was talking about nudging my 20 year old son to understand that sitting around for the rest of his life wasn’t an option while I guess deep inside your head, you were thinking about comments I made about kindergarten teachers, lol, shaking my head.

    Now when it comes to teaching my young grand kids, I admitted already that I prefer a woman for a kindergarten teacher over a man, so there is no news flash there.

    You also seem to ignore much of what I have to say about the economic hardships that married couples face and have been facing for decades, that is forcing both spouses to work and raise a family at the same time. I grew up in that environment, in a working poor environment. Something your stats seem to ignore.

    You also seem to believe the studies you presented to me, that women are culturally pressured to teach, though your studies doesn’t emphasize that many women choose that option to teach because it gives them a little more flexibility to be with their kids, than most other professions.

    Some of my adult friends that teach, grew up in that environment and enjoyed more free-time going on trips and spending more holiday time with their own family than those stuck working 50 weeks out of the year working in 115 degree heat, who don’t have those options.

    It may come to a shock to you, but there are those outside your thinking circle that don’t embrace the same goals as you. Some place greater value choosing a profession that is more user friendly to raising kids and taking care of domestic issues

    Mark, do you think that “all” or the majority of women that teach are culturally pressured to teach?

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  33. You also seem to believe the studies you presented to me, that women are culturally pressured to teach, though your studies doesn’t emphasize that many women choose that option to teach because it gives them a little more flexibility to be with their kids, than most other professions.

    But why does it have to be the woman who spends more time with her kids? Why can’t it be the husband?

    Mark, do you think that “all” or the majority of women that teach are culturally pressured to teach?

    Not intending to speak for Mark, but I believe that there’s still a lot of cultural and social pressure on women to be dependent on men and relationally-skilled, and on men to be aggressive, stoic and “successful”. There’s been some improvement, as you say, and more opportunities are available to women now than in previous generations. But real acceptance of the full humanity of both men and women isn’t quite with us yet. And the notion that certain human qualities — such as kindness, nurture and tenderness — are strictly “feminine” isn’t gone yet. This idea is still present in many forms, and it doesn’t have to explicitly say, “a woman’s place is in the home” in order to affect people. It might even be affecting your relatives in ways that they don’t fully realize themselves.

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  34. D –

    You also seem to ignore much of what I have to say about the economic hardships that married couples face and have been facing for decades, that is forcing both spouses to work and raise a family at the same time. I grew up in that environment, in a working poor environment. Something your stats seem to ignore.

    Because economic hardships has to do with cultural bias how? I’m not here to be some sort of robo-debater of any topic you find compelling. I’m trying to demonstrate that women are culturally pressured into certain occupations.

    Now when it comes to teaching my young grand kids, I admitted already that I prefer a woman for a kindergarten teacher over a man, so there is no news flash there.

    But, yet to continue to gloss over any and all effects that this obvious cultural bias may have on women and men making choices of occupations. Continuing to say things like “My family are liberals, nothing forced on them, no cultural pressure.”

    You also seem to believe the studies you presented to me, that women are culturally pressured to teach, though your studies doesn’t emphasize that many women choose that option to teach because it gives them a little more flexibility to be with their kids, than most other professions.

    I presume you don’t understand how science works. In order to do a scientifically valid study, it is best to isolate the causes. That is, if I want to study gravity, I don’t shoot a projectile and then figure out how much friction, wind speed, the Coriolis effect, the strong and weak forces and whatnot all contributed to the trajectory. Instead, I’m going to devise an experiment that ignores those other forces and focuses on gravity in isolation.

    So, maybe Anne chose teaching because her husband beat her every night and told her he’d kill her if she didn’t become a teacher, and Bobbi Jo liked the smell of the school. We’re not going to get anywhere trying to psychoanalyze every teacher and non-teacher and decide what chemical brain processes and environmental impacts led to that decision.

    Instead, we say is gender bias and gender pressure a significant contributor to women choosing to teach, and the percentages of female vs. male teachers in various countries? And the answer is HELL, YES!

    I guess the question I can ask back is… why are women so much more interested in having flexibility with their kids, if taking care of kids is not a “gender role” for women?

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  35. Japan,

    I have said in this post, most who are married don’t have one spouse or the other, having a large enough salary for one or the other to stay home with the kids and tending to domestic duties, which by itself is a full time job.

    By appearance most on the this were isolating women and how they are culturally pressured to teach and I was counting that many choose to teach because it gives them a little more flexibility to be with their family, Which of course works well for men that also teach.

    We all can find a poll that confirms our views, In fact in my search of % of women working outside the home, I also discovered a gall-up poll that suggests’ 55% of U.S. mothers prefer to stay at home, again very exhaustive work. But add a full time job outside the home and do that for 33 years like my mom did with kids and job at the same time.

    My mom did both, worked full time then work full time at home, 6 hours of sleep, 1 hour of commute time each way, 8 hours at her job then 8 hours of domestic duties, I helped out a lot. But it still wasn’t enough.

    I watched my mom work herself into the ground. She was a draftsman, she loved it even though in the 70’s it didn’t pay much, but if my step-father’s salary was big enough for her to stay at home, she would’ve chose to do it. If her salary was big enough, then my step-father would’ve been able to stay at home, instead of working the insane hours he worked behind a till in a grocery store.

    Maybe you and Mark are insulated from such mundane realities but instead more focused on women that don’t have to work and want to, but can’t because of a stupid Comp philosophy that a “woman’s place is in the home”. But even in Comp churches I’m sure there are wives that work and have to for economic reasons, but would rather stay at home.

    Like I suggested, maybe there are those on this thread that are insulated from having a clue what its like to watch their parents work themselves into the ground and the impact on family life, or what it’s like to work 50 hours a week for both who work and have kids.

    Many corporations see it, allowing employees to work out of their home offices. My brother’s wife started a daycare in their home. More people are opting for careers that are more user friendly to their health, lifestyle and to their family.

    I’d like to add, that I know domestic duties isn’t for everyone, many work outside the home to get out of doing domestic duties or to be with the kids, like another sister-in-law I have. Who for years would leave 12 loads of laundry on the floor, day in and day sitting on the couch watching TV with dirty dishes needing to be washed, that her husband had to do when he got home after work. She never cooked, opting for box cereal, canned foods and microwave frozen food and Cheetos.
    Her place definitely wasn’t in the home, at least in my view.
    Then fed up, he suggested she get a job and he would stay home and take care of the domestic stuff and watch the kids. Which she did and liked a lot better as she wasn’t coming home to a dirty house, not that it really mattered to her.

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  36. Maybe you and Mark are insulated from such mundane realities but instead more focused on women that don’t have to work and want to

    Well, like most single people male or female, SKIJ has to work for a living. And do domestic duties, unless he can afford a maid. Which is also an option for people with decent double incomes who hate cleaning.

    Your SIL sounds like she may have been depressed or exhausted after being culturally pressured to stay home and do ‘domestic duties’ that she hated until her husband took over. She’s kind of proving the opposite of your points.

    And Sidenote to people who hate cleaning, invest in a robot vacuum. You will not be disappointed.

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  37. many work outside the home to get out of doing domestic duties or to be with the kids, like another sister-in-law I have

    I don’t know if you realize how this little story emphases all the thoughts you have clearly internalized about how women should be home cooking cleaning and raises babies because you have judged your SIL like crazy for not being that kind of person.

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  38. Mark,

    I’m not glossing over cultural bias’s (which exist a lot less than they use to) any more than you are glossing over tough economic realities which is occurring more so for both spouses, today than ever before.

    We live in a society where the majority of husbands and wives have to work outside the home.

    Mark, judging by the way you gloat about your education background maybe you and a few other’s on this thread might be more insulated from those economic hardship realities than the rest of us that gloat about having absolutely no choice but to have both spouses working outside the home.

    I commend you for your accomplishments as I’m sure they are well deserved and maybe you make enough to where if you are married that your spouse has the option of staying home or working,

    That isn’t the case for many of us even though our kids have grown into adulthood.

    Would I prefer my wife to be a doctor or a U.S. Senator and have an income large enough for me to stay home at the time we had young kids? yes. Would my wife prefer me to be a doctor or lawyer with an income large enough for her to stay home when we had young kids?,, yes, she would,

    She did stay at home, until the economic meltdown occurred. It was then that we were able to remember what it was like for both her and my parents endured exhaustion as both worked full time and then do the same at home.

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  39. Lea,

    I was responding to a comment someone was making about those that embrace a foolish theory that a “woman’s place is at home”

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  40. I was responding to a comment someone was making about those that embrace a foolish theory that a “woman’s place is at home”

    That doesn’t mean, D, that your opinions aren’t clear throughout. This deflection does not change your words, your story.

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  41. D – “I’m not glossing over cultural bias’s (which exist a lot less than they use to) any more than you are glossing over tough economic realities which is occurring more so for both spouses, today than ever before.”

    Just to remind you, the post title is “Women in the Church and Gender Roles“, so if you want to kibitz about “tough economic realities”, you are free in our free country to do so, but I’m also free to choose to deal with the topic of the post, which is “gender roles”.

    If you want to argue that “tough economic realities” have significantly changed gender roles, by all means, but if you want to play some sort of sympathy card, or try to demand respect because you didn’t get to have your wife stay home… I’m not particularly interested in responding.

    Re: “tough economic realities”, my dad had a great education, went to a great school, and in the process was converted and joined my abusive former denomination. He was “culturally pressured” into paying it forward to the next generation and ended up being a professor at a church college. His entire career, he and his peers were treated like garbage by the authoritarian leadership. He was cheated out of his due wages – what his peers received that he did not. He was paid below the starting salary of many of his students. My mom stayed at home and took care of the kids because it was the “right thing to do(TM)”. I was on the school lunch program and we were on food stamps when I was young. We ate meat loaf and mixed powdered milk 50/50 with our milk to make it go further. But, the upside of his being a professor was that we kids got a free college education, which I made the most of and found a career that was in-demand and highly paid.

    So, perhaps that is evidence that our cultural reaction to tough economic realities has changed the gender role equation, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t still strong pressure for women to choose careers that are compatible with their culturally demanded domestic duties of cleaning the house and taking care of the kids.

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  42. Lea,

    I’m not deflecting anything, I admitted that I prefer the talents of a woman over a man when teaching kindergarten to my grandchildren.

    Causing the discussion to further expand into cultural pressure of career options being placed on both men and women.

    But in 2018, it is less constant because the pressure is much greater for 2 wage earners in a marriage to exist with both working paycheck to paycheck just to put food on the table and mentally drained at the end of each day.

    Maybe you and others don’t have that problem, which is why I think some aren’t seeing what I’m seeing with the economic realities of the working poor.

    The only “cultural pressure” many of those couples are feeling, is to make enough to survive beyond paycheck to paycheck and still find quality time with each other and with their kids. They could give a hoot about a bunch of social ideologs bickering

    I even conceded that there may be some women and men that fall prey to cultural pressure to work in a job, whether they like the job or not, such as teaching. I myself work in a job I don’t like, but out of fiscal necessity, not cultural pressure.

    Sometimes it feels like in this thread, there is this notion that all women and men are constantly experiencing cultural pressure in all that they do, some of it as a result of certain bias’s that exist in each and everyone of us.

    What I’m saying is there are many that choose to work in the jobs they have, because they have more flexibility to fit their lifestyle, is more user friendly for their body, for their marriage and for their kids and not for cultural pressure reasons, which is what is being magnified on this thread.

    Even in Comp churches economic realities exist, if one spouse’s income isn’t big enough then the other spouse “usually” works. In some of those cases poverty makes the woman feel trapped with no place to go.

    To the husband in a comp church with a large income and then “makes” his wife stay home and abuses her, she may have better financial options to escape or walk away, which she should do if he continues to hate and abuse her and her kids.

    Poverty is no friend to an abused woman who is trying to escape abuse.

    It all goes back to a love issue. People prematurely getting married where one or both think they are in love and discover they really aren’t, possibly because mutually one or both didn’t take the time to understand how the other was mentally wired though arranged marriages is something I could never understand. Without love what is the use?

    I mean, how can any man say he loves his wife, if he abuses her?

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  43. Maybe you and others don’t have that problem

    Honey, single people don’t have the option of just picking the spouse who stays home, even if they have a decent income. Because their is no spouse. And we can’t even split domestic duties, we do them all ourselves. So, maybe quit asking for so much sympathy next time and actually listen.

    And in your comment about not deflecting you jumped topics yet again. Which is deflecting. Sigh.

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  44. Mark,

    This conversation expanded further than that.

    But I did mention that there are certain ministries where a woman is needed, such as guidance in a teen ministry filled with girls. Or even in a women’s bible study. My point was there are roles that woman do that men don’t.

    I also backed it up, when I shared when my wife told me, there were things that she needed to confide with the woman co-leading the teens, in the youth group she was in, that she would never share with the man.

    Then somehow goalposts’ changed, one spitting out, “oh then the woman’s place is in the home” or “what about women being doctors?” For which I replied, my family doctor is a woman.

    Mark, you are a lot smarter than I am, as you insinuated a few times about your education background and how naïve I am and you probably are right as I’m not filled with academia like you are,
    I’m just down here with the culturally pressured, like everyone else, with exception, that I’m with the one I love, even though we struggle making enough legal tender to get by.

    I let leave it at that and let you and others continue to take shots at me.

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  45. D – “What I’m saying is there are many that choose to work in the jobs they have, because they have more flexibility to fit their lifestyle, is more user friendly for their body, for their marriage and for their kids and not for cultural pressure reasons, which is what is being magnified on this thread.”

    I think you continue to misunderstand “cultural pressure”. It’s not just cultural ideas on what women are good at and what they should do. It is stuff like… Your neighbor buys a new car and now there is some sort of one-upmanship that traverses through the neighborhood as suddenly no one’s old junker is good enough anymore. Or, where I used to live, there was a street where the neighbors outdid each other when it came to Christmas lights. It’s not all bad. On a sports team, there may be “good” competition where kids are improving their skills as the other kids improve their skills. In a historic district, cultural pressure may be to improve historical properties and renovate rather than tear down and build McMansions. We are social beings and we often live life in a way that “fits in” with what values our community has. In Texas, apparently everyone has a need to own a pickup. In Michigan, the ratio of “domestic” cars is significantly higher than elsewhere. So, cultural pressure is a constant – I can’t create an anti-cultural pressure force field, and often I’m not even aware that I’m being swayed by cultural pressure. So, when I was in Michigan, I had a choice between a $15,000 foreign minivan and a $25,000 domestic crossover. It was 2009 when the auto manufacturers were having major problems and I had friends who worked for those companies. I ended up buying the domestic car because I knew it would be a big deal to those around me. They didn’t exactly slash tires in 2009, but the sentiment wasn’t that far off.

    So, there is “good” cultural pressure and there is “bad” cultural pressure. The “good” cultural pressure encourages people to be moral, to take care of their property, to be a better person, to invest in the future, etc., but there is also “bad” cultural pressure – to spend money you don’t have. To sacrifice your retirement to buy things today. To be a workaholic to “get ahead”. To wear the “right” clothes, to drive the “right” car, to live in the “right” house in the right neighborhood. To put your kids in the best private schools and pay for them to play on the best teams and drive/fly all over the country so they can play in tournaments.

    This bad cultural pressure is based on biases. For example, people who dress well are smarter, more successful, and better people. It’s simply not true. There are smart people who wear crappy clothes and there are dumb people in suits. But… people will judge you based on your clothing. In the same way, there are biases about women, and those turn into cultural pressure. For example, teaching is a great occupation for women is based on biases – that women are better at childcare than men, and that women are more interested in nurturing children than men, but it is also based on a fit for the gender role that women are pushed into. It’s assumed in our culture that women will take the “caregiver” role in families. They take care of children and they take care of aging parents. Since women tend to live longer than men, they often care for their ailing husbands. That bias then translates into female-oriented jobs, which are jobs that can be done by women who fit into these caregiver roles. They tend to be more seasonal, more flexible, and perhaps unsurprisingly, lower pay. And there is a reinforcing loop (perhaps why 97% of kindergarten teachers are female). So, women take these roles, and then when some sort of family emergency comes up, the family member with the most flexibility is called on to handle the emergency. This then reinforces the idea that women should look for flexible jobs because they will be the ones handling emergencies.

    Like

  46. D said

    <

    blockquote>By appearance most on the this were isolating women and how they are culturally pressured to teach and I was counting that many choose to teach because it gives them a little more flexibility to be with their family, Which of course works well for men that also teach.

    <

    blockquote> They have more flexibility? I’m not sure.

    _‘I Work 3 Jobs And Donate Blood Plasma to Pay the Bills.’ This Is What It’s Like to Be a Teacher in America_ – 2018 article via TIME magazine

    If they’re having to work ten jobs to barely make the bills, I don’t think they have a crap ton of free time left over to be with their family.

    Like

  47. Mark said,

    <

    blockquote> For example, teaching is a great occupation for women is based on biases – that women are better at childcare than men, and that women are more interested in nurturing children than men, but it is also based on a fit for the gender role that women are pushed into.

    It’s assumed in our culture that women will take the “caregiver” role in families.

    They take care of children and they take care of aging parents.

    Since women tend to live longer than men, they often care for their ailing husbands.

    That bias then translates into female-oriented jobs, which are jobs that can be done by women who fit into these caregiver roles.

    They tend to be more seasonal, more flexible, and perhaps unsurprisingly, lower pay. And there is a reinforcing loop (perhaps why 97% of kindergarten teachers are female).

    So, women take these roles, and then when some sort of family emergency comes up, the family member with the most flexibility is called on to handle the emergency.

    This then reinforces the idea that women should look for flexible jobs because they will be the ones handling emergencies. And it’s a gender bias and gender expectation that women should be the ones to stay at home and take care of the kids.

    Married women still do more of the housework than their husbands do, even if both partners have careers outside the home. (There are studies and research online about this.)

    Women would not supposedly “”need” all that job flexibility if men carried an equal share of house and kid work, or if men were assumed by culture to be the care-takers of children.

    There’s no reason why housework and caring for kids cannot be more equitable between husband and wife, or he,…

    Let’s swap the genders, and have women work full time outside the home while the husband stays at home and does all- to- most of the childcare.

    You can even have the fathers QUIT their jobs to stay home full time to parent while the mothers work full time out of the house.

    There is absolutely no reason to have or to expect women to be the ones to look after kids at home rather than the man, or to assume women need flexibility in a job, unless you’re buying into societal assumptions about women, and about gender roles, that we women make better caretakers for children.

    Like

  48. Hi Daisy,

    Men need to help carry the load to the best of his ability, no matter how much flexibility a woman has.

    I had parents that worked full time. Usually my step-dad worked until 10 pm so he was limited to how much he could chip in, except on his day off on Sunday and Monday. By Sunday, the house was clean and Monday he was alone while my mom was at work and the kids at school, and the house was still pretty clean.

    I was the eldest of 5 kids, so I took on a lot by the age of 10, mainly laundry and dishes and tidying up during the week but even weekends, I didn’t go anywhere as Saturday’s was house cleaning day and grocery shopping day, Parents sent us to church on Sundays while they had alone time.

    The pace my mom maintained was exhaustive. All the while her sisters chose to become teachers,

    Most professions aren’t easy and teaching is no exception, But it was clear that no matter how hard teaching is, it doesn’t change what I witnessed first hand the difference of flexibility my aunties had, compared to my mom.

    They were home earlier than her, they had more personal and sick leave than my mom did and they had way more time off during the holidays and during the summer. pay and retirement benefits were better than my mom, They worked hard like my mom did, but were more rested than she was and in fact they’ll live longer as my mom passed away.

    My mom had a hard life. There are a lot of woman like what my mom, in a 2 income environment with spouses working separate shifts, raising kids at the same time.

    The cultural pressure I see most, is like what my mom went through and the vigorous pace that most 2 income families have to maintain, just so they can pay their bills. Then to raise a family at the same time makes it more difficult.

    Daisy, if you are married and happened to be in a 2 income environment and raising kids at the same time, it can’t be easy, but it would become brutal if you or he works until midnight and the other works until 5.

    My definition of cultural pressure is lack of alternatives that is plaguing our society, especially low income or working poor. Also the commute to work is typically longer and wages haven’t kept up with inflation.

    Like

  49. Mark,

    You wrote:
    “They tend to be more seasonal, more flexible, and perhaps unsurprisingly, lower pay. And there is a reinforcing loop (perhaps why 97% of kindergarten teachers are female).

    So, women take these roles, and then when some sort of family emergency comes up, the family member with the most flexibility is called on to handle the emergency.”

    Mark, when a 20 year old man or woman is pursuing a teaching degree or any job that gives them extra time off, they aren’t thinking emergency, but instead getting out of the house. And parents and other family members aren’t thinking “we know who to call, when an emergency occurs”

    When there is an emergency however, it won’t matter who is available, as it is the last thing on anybody’s mind about sacrificing flexibility of schedule. Most would leave work if they could and go help a family member in an emergency.

    Cultural pressure as you said has several scenarios that might be different to one person compared to another.

    Cultural Pressure sometimes happens on the job or in the classroom or on the job, where a manager, union boss or professor, might be so wrapped up in social ideology that they will need a case of Kleenex if their favorite liberal or conservative isn’t elected and then argue or take it out their frustration on co-worker or a student that don’t see things the same way,

    Then others might be feeling the rigors of trying to figure out how they are going to make their next house payment after their spouse was laid off from work, causing the laid off person to take just about any job or role, to save their home.

    Like

  50. D, ‘And parents and other family members aren’t thinking “we know who to call, when an emergency occurs”’

    Funny that every year we have to update emergency contact information for the school. Right now, it’s call mom, call dad, call grandma. I have emergency contact information for my job. Call my wife. Sometimes my wife gets the call and she is not available, so either she or the school contacts me.

    That is for “standard” emergency stuff – a sick kid at school, primarily. Obviously, when someone is in an accident or whatever, we’re all going to drop everything, and that’s expected, but the societal expectation is that women work jobs that are more compatible with standard emergencies and men work jobs that are less. Hopefully, that is going away, but it is still an undertone in our society.

    And… 20-somethings don’t just wake up one day and say, I’m going to be a teacher so I can get out of the house. Maybe it’s that way with some, but the college I’m familiar with, freshmen come in with majors already declared. The way education is specialized, it is very difficult to switch majors mid-stream without having to go to school another year, and adding another year to college is expensive and doesn’t get you out of the house any sooner. So, the typical education major has decided what career primarily based on school and parental influence, and perhaps “family emergency” isn’t at the top of that list, but I think “compatibility with female societal roles” is. There are horror stories of women who took a few years off of, for example, computer programming jobs for family reasons, only to find that the “gap” and whatever other stereotypes got applied to their resume, made it extremely difficult to get a job. Whereas, our elementary school has pretty much a revolving door and we had a teacher who took, I think, a 10-year break only to substitute one year and be full-time after that – in one of the most high-demand school districts in our state!

    I’ve seen people go into firefighting for that reason – no need to go to college, and a 4 day work week.

    Like

  51. Mark, by the age of 20, college students are entering their junior year in college and most of them have chosen a major and many of them chose education.

    You know these things. unless you forgot that most college students chose their major by the time they enter their junior year. Sometimes they’ll change majors.

    Again you must already know this. Maybe you chose a major and then later changed your mind when you were in college.

    You were partly insinuating that college kids were choosing careers that gave them more flexibility so they can avail themselves for family emergencies. Most kids aren’t being manipulated like that. You were also insinuating the same thing to the parents of those students and manipulating or choosing their kid’s major, so they can rely on them to assist them in an emergency when they are in their 70’s, which is nuts.

    Many like me however, when we had kids choosing a major, we were in our 40’s and early 50’s. So we aren’t thinking “who we are going to rely on” in an emergency or which kid will have favorable career flexibility in the event of an emergency.

    My kids weren’t thinking about family emergencies when they chose their majors in college and we weren’t encouraging them to chose a major that will give them career flexibility so they can take care of us.

    I suspect most college kids are a lot like my kids, get a degree and move on with their lives. Most parents are a lot like us, don’t stand in the way of their kid’s choices in fact we want our kids to go out and have the ability to support themselves, though some fresh out of college move back in for a short period of time, until they land a job.

    Most parents and college grads would prefer the college grad to land a job soon as possible so they can move out.

    I can however, visualize a scenario, where a 20 year old is choosing a major and they have an aging 65 year old parent with health issues who isn’t getting around like they use to, where career choices are being manipulated by the health of their parents.

    I really am a bit surprised that you actually think college kids by the time they reach their Junior year, that they can’t possibly decide on their own or that they can’t exercise some vision when they are choosing a major.

    Like

  52. I see professionals altering their work week so they can have 4 day weekends every twice a month. (configuring 4 days in an actual work week) My dentist does that and all the professionals working for him, love the flexibility.

    As it gives them an extra 50 days off a year.

    I wish my mom had an extra 50 days off a year, instead of working herself in an exhaustive pace. Going 5 days a week for 50 weeks a year, not easy raising 5 kids.

    In fact I know she is a lot like other parents in that she pushed her kids out the door when they hit adulthood.
    I wasn’t quite as harsh, because the economic meltdown made our kids extremely vulnerable while college tuition exploded, so they chose to go to junior college and stay at home to control cost, Then they moved out when they entered their junior year and into a dorm.

    Like

  53. “Mark, by the age of 20, college students are entering their junior year in college and most of them have chosen a major and many of them chose education.”

    Depends on the state. I was a first-semester sophomore when I turned 20, and where I grew up had a cutoff around the first day of school. Indiana, for example, has a cutoff of August 1, which makes their kids older. Connecticut is January 1 and Maine is October 15.

    You were partly insinuating that college kids were choosing careers that gave them more flexibility so they can avail themselves for family emergencies. Most kids aren’t being manipulated like that. You were also insinuating the same thing to the parents of those students and manipulating or choosing their kid’s major, so they can rely on them to assist them in an emergency when they are in their 70’s, which is nuts.

    Weren’t you upset that I said you were naive?

    People don’t need to manipulate when society does the manipulation for them… Except at inflection points. As I said, prior to the industrial revolution, husband and wife generally worked alongside each other and shared household duties. When the industrial revolution happened, there was a lot of societal and theological soul-searching about whether the new model (wife stays home, husband leaves the house to work) was okay. That’s when all sorts of Biblical passages we reinterpreted into women being keepers of the home and children. Once that was in place societally, the next inflection point was probably WWII, where it was okay for Rosie the Riveter to work in a factory while her husband fought in the war, because… it was war. But after that, Rosie happily returned home to start the Baby Boom.

    Now, we have enough of an inflection point that society and theologians are doing the same soul-searching. Just as we have the rise of “feminism” – that women deserve equal pay for equal work and that household roles should be agreed upon by husband and wife, we also have the theological counterpoint of patriarchy and complementarianism that says women were created by God to pop out kids and take care of the house and that “work” is primarily a male responsibility.

    In other words, parents don’t need to push their daughters into domestic roles because that’s what our society does. If… general society evolves to the point where domestic roles are not primarily considered to be feminine, then there will probably be a lot more need to determine caregiver roles within a family – more than just assume that it’ll be taken care of when there are female offspring. Part of that is due to the shrinking economy. I think that is why the conservative theologians are doubling down on females having caregiver roles. Because they see what could be a generational crisis. GenX doesn’t have the pension plan that took care of their parents in retirement, and they don’t have enough Social Security to keep them out of poverty, and they don’t, generally, have lots of kids to take care of them. So, I think the church is trying to push women into these domestic roles (some more blatantly than others).

    Even now, we have Baby Boomers who had to un-retire because of the 2008 financial crisis.

    Like

  54. Mark,

    I wasn’t upset that you called me naive, just annoyed that you decided to include that in the conversation. When we (I’m guilty of it as well) challenge someone’s intellect it is arrogant. But I later qualified your assertion that neither of us walked in one another’s shoes so we aren’t going to see things the same. And if that was the direction you wanted to go then the discussion was over.

    I grew up in household that scraped to get by and kids got pushed out the door at 18 and told to “go support yourself” which is not uncommon and maybe you grew up in a household where you didn’t have to decide at age 20 what you wanted to do, which is common.

    I know there are those that are 20 when enter their sophomore year, In particular ones that were either had a birthday in July or later or were held back a year in elementary school. (which was the case for me)

    You know that most kids entering their sophomore year in college is 19, turning 20.

    You however insinuated that 20 year old adults, weren’t making career choices or choosing a major, like they weren’t.

    Your emphasis is so strong, it sounds as if in your case the major in college or career choice was made by your parents as they needed you to be handy whenever an emergency arises or for you to take over the family business. But then if that is what you wanted to do or agreed to do it, who am I to judge?

    These are changing times, money is tight for many that work in a 2 wage earner environment, I know you like polls so I share that one poll exposed that 60% of women with kids that work outside the home, would prefer they didn’t have to work. They are essentially working 2 jobs and it is even harder if her or her husband is on swing shift.

    2 wage earners raising a family, working 5 or 6 days a week for 50 weeks out of the year, makes working in a place that goes 4 days a week, like a dental office, gives employees an extra 50 days off a year.

    As for Rosie the Riveter losing a job that she wanted to keep after WWII, simply because Rosie is a woman, happened 70 years ago, and such non-sense would end up in court and Rosie would win a lawsuit now.

    Like

  55. Not only do gender stereotypes and gender biases influence what careers men and women enter into in the USA, but this is also true of other nations:

    From Aug 2018, Japan:
    _A Japanese Medical University Lowered Women’s Test Scores Because It Was A “Necessary Evil”_

    Tokyo Medical University for years doctored the test scores of female applicants to admit fewer women because school officials believed that once women got married and had children they would be unable to fulfill their emergency shifts at hospitals.

    From Sept 2018, United States:
    _Facebook Accused of Allowing Bias Against Women in Job Ads_

    Employers are using Facebook to target job ads to men only, excluding women and anyone who identifies as another gender from employment opportunities, according to a complaint filed Tuesday with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

    The complaint, the first step before filing a discrimination lawsuit, is being brought against Facebook and nine employers on behalf of three women who say the ad filtering kept them from seeing job postings in male-dominated fields including construction, trucking and software.

    Like

  56. D said,

    I see professionals altering their work week so they can have 4 day weekends every twice a month. (configuring 4 days in an actual work week) My dentist does that and all the professionals working for him, love the flexibility.

    As it gives them an extra 50 days off a year.

    That may or may not work for the dental hygienists and dental assistants who have a dentist for their boss.

    It is my understanding that hygienists (many of them) do not get paid days off, sick days, or vacation days.

    Some of them have said it highly depends on the particular dentist one works for – some dentists may provide for sick days off, etc, but a lot of them do not.

    One hygienist I saw online said that her boss, the dentist, would take off three days in a row, closing down the office that whole time (because he could financially afford to do this, and he would go boating on a lake),
    which meant she did not get paid, which ticked her off, because she was a single mother with two kids to support, and she still had to pay her kids’ day care costs on those days, even though she was at home watching them.

    She asked her dentist about all this, and she said he didn’t care he was costing her.

    Like

  57. D said

    As for Rosie the Riveter losing a job that she wanted to keep after WWII, simply because Rosie is a woman, happened 70 years ago, and such non-sense would end up in court and Rosie would win a lawsuit now.

    Aaaand….. we have laws in place precisely because of sexism, gender stereotypes, etc, in our culture that says stupid things like,
    “Men are better at job X than women are”
    or “Women are better suited to teach kindergarten than men, because women are so much more gentle”

    Even though we have laws in place saying gender should not be a factor to hiring someone, there are still people and companies who discriminate.

    There are extremist Christians who think all women should stay at home and not go to school and not have careers. If those clowns had their way, they would seriously pass laws forbidding women from working outside the home, just like the Muslim Taliban.

    The fact that we have anti-discriminatory laws (based on gender) should tip you off it’s because of things like gender bias does in fact affect why people choose what jobs they do, and that some people will refuse to hire people of a certain biological sex because of their biases.

    Colleges and schools started trying to encourage more girls to enter math and science courses in the last decade because people noticed that there are not as many women as men in tech related fields.

    Like

  58. Daisy.

    My hygienists’ chose to work in the dental office where there was a 4 day work week, just so she can have that extra 50 days off a year compared than most others in the private sector. The teachers I know, like that extra 50 off as well.

    In fact all the hygienists’ in that office work an average of 3 days a week as they want the flexibility of going to their kids volleyball, gymnastics, football, basketball and hockey games.

    They want a life.

    Maybe you and your husband can handle working full time jobs for 50 weeks out of the year, in labor intense situations working different shifts, raising 2 to 5+ kids, in order to pay your bills, it is stressful and it isn’t that easy on the kids either.

    I know in my instance when I grew up, it felt like my parents were going through hell and were unhappy, both working their fingers to the bone.

    Daisy, it seems you are trivializing the toll, the body is taking on those that work outside the home and then going home and take care of the domestic stuff and the, kids is comparable to working 2 jobs.

    Maybe those with high paying jobs can afford to pay a maid, but most can’t.

    Do you have a maid?

    Like

  59. Daisy, it seems you are trivializing the toll, the body is taking on those that work outside the home and then going home and take care of the domestic stuff
    Maybe you and your husband

    D, you should stop making assumptions about people and read what they actually write. Daisy isn’t married.

    You have asked for sympathy many times from various single people for having both spouses have to work and do domestic duties! Like all single people have to do, and they can’t split it by half either. Newflash. TONS of people would love for work to be an ‘option’. It simply isn’t for most of them. Your dental hygienist who is happy for a 4 day week probably has a second income in the family, but what if she didn’t. She would need another, different job. Lots of teachers have second jobs, btw.

    Liked by 1 person

  60. D said

    Daisy.

    My hygienists’ chose to work in the dental office where there was a 4 day work week, just so she can have that extra 50 days off a year compared than most others in the private sector. The teachers I know, like that extra 50 off as well.

    In fact all the hygienists’ in that office work an average of 3 days a week as they want the flexibility of going to their kids volleyball, gymnastics, football, basketball and hockey games.

    They want a life.

    Maybe you and your husband can handle working full time jobs for 50 weeks out of the year, in labor intense situations working different shifts, raising 2 to 5+ kids, in order to pay your bills, it is stressful and it isn’t that easy on the kids either.

    I know in my instance when I grew up, it felt like my parents were going through hell and were unhappy, both working their fingers to the bone.

    Daisy, it seems you are trivializing the toll, the body is taking on those that work outside the home and then going home and take care of the domestic stuff and the, kids is comparable to working 2 jobs.

    Maybe those with high paying jobs can afford to pay a maid, but most can’t.

    Do you have a maid?

    Do I “have a maid?”
    Well aren’t you being an arrogant, presumptive snot.

    No, I don’t have a maid.

    I already said up thread I am in the process of a career change, which involves some investigation.

    I have never indicated on this blog that I am independently wealthy but have rather shared that my ex-fiance cheated me out of my savings, he exploited me financially.

    Do I sound rich to you? Where have I ever given that impression?

    I’ve been reading up on job hunting sites by actual Dental Hygienists, and many of them say in many cases, they are over-worked, don’t get paid sick days, etc., and they are telling people things like,
    “If you are thinking of changing careers DO NOT choose dental hygienist as a career.”

    And there are many married people saying that and many parents, too.

    Many women are saying they are single mothers and that the Dental Hygienist career is not paying their bills or making it easier for them to spend time with their kids, contra to what you’ve been saying here.

    I’ve only seen a small number of women (especially single mothers) who are happy working as dental hygienists, or who say they enjoy the flexible hours or want the flex schedule.
    Many of them prefer to work and get paid.
    Their bosses, the dentists, do not give them paid days off, not even for sick days or holidays, is what they write on the job forums.

    Many Dental Hygienists leaving feed back on career forums say that taking off from the job and not being crunched financially is only possible for the dentists who own the practice, not for the assistants or hygienists who work for the dentist.

    D said,

    Maybe you and your husband can handle working full time jobs

    Me and my husband?

    I am over 45 years of age and have never been married.

    I’ve been pretty upfront and clear about being a single adult ever since I began posting here to Spiritual Sounding Board blog.

    One reason of ten I started posting to this blog years ago was to discuss how churches marginalize single adults because they are so busy worshipping Marriage and The Nuclear Family and don’t give a rat about singleness.

    D said

    Daisy, it seems you are trivializing the toll, the body is taking on those that work outside the home and then going home and take care of the domestic stuff and the, kids is comparable to working 2 jobs.

    I never said or implied any such thing. Where did you get this from? Kindly stop putting words in my mouth.

    Many single adults have to do two jobs, if they live alone and must support themselves – if a single adult gets sick, they have no spouse to take care of household tasks while they are recovering in bed.

    You are like the other obnoxious guy who posts to this blog, KAS, in that you feign being upset by incivility, bad language, rudeness, etc, but you sit around on this blog being rude in your own way to people on this blog.

    Now, knowing you, you won’t walk back your snotty comments to me, but will feign great offense that I’ve said you are being rude, acting like a snot, etc, and you will nit-pick on that point for the next ten days in a row, you will likely further demand that I apologize, all while ignoring the larger points that myself or others make or have already made in this thread.

    And I don’t think you ever did acknowledge the link to TIME magazine I just posted, to the Sept 2018 article, saying that American teaching is not a Nirvana or Paradise for everyone, as you portray it:
    The teachers interviewed in that article say they have to work two or more jobs to pay the bills because their teaching jobs don’t pay enough.

    But you keep making teaching out to be such a cushy job. It’s not, not according to a lot of teachers out there.

    Teachers in Arizona and Oklahoma just went on strike a few months ago to demand greater pay.

    This is the second or third time I have posted this link to this thread:

    _‘I Work 3 Jobs And Donate Blood Plasma to Pay the Bills.’ This Is What It’s Like to Be a Teacher in America_ – via TIME magazine, Sept. 2018 article.

    The other link I think you overlooked:

    Example of Gender Bias / Sexism/ Gender Expectations determining what careers men/women get into, from September 2018 (not from the 1950s):

    _Facebook Accused of Allowing Bias Against Women in Job Ads_

    And, here are Comments by people who actually work as Dental Hygienists from job boards:

    Comment by RDHCJ in Boston, Massachusetts:

    Do not go into dental hygiene.

    There are very few jobs available now and most are part time only with NO benefits (not even sick days. You call out sick and you do not get paid and might even get replaced!)!

    Good, nice to work for dentists are hard to find.

    And in a bad economy the first thing people do is STOP getting their teeth cleaned and you end up laid off cause the dentist has to take over the cleanings since the patient load is lower.

    Try nursing or anything else!

    That comment is very, very representative on that job board: I can quote 100 more just like that one.

    By toothygal, who works in the dental field,, who is commenting about that profession:

    The simplest job HAH, in many practices people with no expierence,license,or training are hired basically so the dentist can pay them garbage and keep the change!

    No health benefits,no sick days,no holidays.

    They treat them like slaves,until they go out to lunch and never come back; then guess who has to do both jobs? (Hint; ME).

    ALL DENTIST SHOULD REMEMBER “YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR”

    by Angi in Paducah

    So NOT joking… we’ve lived here 3 years!

    Worked for 1 DDS clear out in Murray 1 day a week (Thurs).

    I drove 1 hr and 15 mins (one-way)…if pts [patients] cancelled and my AM fell apart, several times this happened) they never even called to tell me:
    “they forgot”!I’

    D make the trip over there…(too far to go back home), and I would have to wait until 1:30.
    Getting up at 5 am/with 3 kids to daycare before school thats pretty hard.

    He [the dentist she worked for] paid me on commission ONLY.
    He claimed I’d make all this money!

    Well, I would get my check for 8 hrs, it would only be for like $40-50 (evy 2 wks,he said:
    “I couldnt be paid until medicaide paid him, and it would catch up, and I would get like a BIG LUMP SUM….so I waited. I worked there 8 mos…nothing BIG ever came.

    His wife ran the show.
    She wanted cleanings done every 20 mins. No x-rays,no HTC,NO SRPS,NO PSR..she sd there was no time! So clean and go.

    An estb.PT of 5 yrs came in, she didn’t have a MDHX or HTC, nothing! That was it for me!

    Quit in March.

    He said, “state med claims were backed up, put a hold on paying” (this was Jul 07-Mar 08).

    I barely broke even with $40 day (daycare),& then gas, sometimes I pd out of my own pocket.

    …Still havent got that BIG LUMP SUM (he owes me for 63 prophies. I didnt want to quit,it was the only office in KY I had worked for since my move. I stayed 8 mos( for the reference). …

    He knew an RDH that he wanted to take the position, but she couldnt yet…so he hired the temp service to hire me, until she got there. He sd he liked my work, good pt skills, great cleaning. That was that.

    comment by Ellen, RDH in Clinton:

    As an older unemployed RDH, I would strongly recommend you don’t pursue dental hygiene.

    The field is flooded with hygienists with and without experience.
    For every job posted there are dozens of applicants.

    I loved my job when I had one, loved my patients and excelled at what I do, but I was let go so the SOB [son of a b_tch] I worked for [the dentist] could hire someone just out of school at a cheaper rate.

    It is nearly impossible to find a “full” time job so you are very unlikely to get health insurance, vacation, or holidays.

    If I had it to do over again, I would have chosen nursing, PT or some other medical field.

    If I sound bitter, I guess I am. I am so discouraged by the lack of responses to my resumes.
    The interviews I have had I’m told they will get back to me after they interview the next 20 or so applicants!

    I just spent well over $1600 to get my local anesthesia license, but so far that has not made a difference!
    Look long and hard at the availability of jobs in your area before you commit to a dental hygiene career. Whatever you choose, best of luck to you.

    Doesn’t sound like all Dental Hygienists adore working in DH. Some do, but there are plenty who have issues with it.

    So, you work as a dentist, D?

    Well don’t get bent out of shape and angry at me for simply repeating the information I’ve read from women (and some men) who actually work as Dental Hygienists who say it’s not all that great a career, that it can only work if the dentist one works for is a nice guy, and those are rare, is the picture they are painting on career forums.

    That’s not me saying that, that are people who already work in the field. I am just repeating what they are saying. Take it up with them if you don’t like the quotes and anecdotes I’ve shared.

    Like

  61. Lea,

    You are right about tons would choose work as an option. Most would prefer to have an income large enough for either the husband of wife work full time at home. Or if both work if one has more flexibility then they aren’t getting burned out as they have the flexibility to do other things and keep up with other responsibilities.

    This conversation changed gears and now is centered around parents in their 40’s choosing a major of a 20 year old college student entering their junior year, so their kids will be able to have the flexibility to take care of them, which by and large is non-sense.

    Daisy, writes novels, where she’ll write sometimes 10 lengthy responses, so I gloss over her novel trying to isolate the point she is making.

    My dentist is 50 and his practice is financially cruising, Once dentists’ have paid off their student loans, many go off on their own and start their own practice and usually by the time they are in their 40’s they are well off. My hygienist is doing well, gets to go to her high school kids baseball games, owns a vacation rental is in her 50’s and is actually retiring. They don’t have kids, so his wife does consulting or coaching. They are in love and she fits her schedule in a way that they are together.

    I’ve seen unrealistic expectations that both left leaning and right leaning believers and non-believers are either embracing or enduring. As a whole society is unsympathetic with the capacities that others have, including the work place. The way to discover someone’s capacity is when they get hurt, which is what happen to me.

    I’ve seen capacities pushed so high that workers are not only getting hurt but suffering a mental breakdown. Sometimes those pressures stimulates the breakdown in a marriage.

    There are many of us working ourselves into an early grave, including myself, The landscape in the work place has changed which is denying many of us the opportunity to have work schedules that are family friendly.

    Everybody is chasing the legal tender and it is getting harder to chase.

    Thankfully, chauvinism is shrinking in America and their view of the woman’s “place” is in the home, which is purposely degrading their value, forgetting that without her, he is nothing.

    What I find it disturbing when those on the left and right fail to understand what it means that a woman should be able “to do it all” which is exactly what my mom did with exception of spending more time with her kids (and not by choice) all the way into an early grave. I have also seen cases of abuse, where the husband does embrace that the wife should be “doing it all” and the husband doesn’t do squat.

    Like

  62. D, you completely ignored everything I said.

    If you want to write monologues about the handful of things that matter to you, while not responding to other people in good faith, have at it.

    Liked by 1 person

  63. Look, I get why men think it’s great to have a little wife at home taking care of all the boring and mundane tasks of life. So did Judy Brady, who wrote a sort of legendary satirical essay on it way back in the 70’s. (https://www.thoughtco.com/i-want-a-wife-3529064)

    Interesting quote from the article that relates:

    Spencer addresses women’s chances for achievement the supportive role that wives had played for many famous men, and how many famous women, including Harriet Beecher Stowe, had the responsibility for childcare and housekeeping as well as writing or other work. Spencer writes, “A successful woman preacher was once asked what special obstacles have you met as a woman in the ministry? Not one, she answered, except the lack of a minister’s wife.”

    None of this stuff is new. None of these duties really have to be done by a woman in a marriage or partnership. It is societal pressure that keeps them in that realm but it’s changing, albeit slowly. I think that’s why these comp types push back so hard.

    My boyfriend cooks for me just about every night and it’s fab. Other are men are starting to opt for stay at home roles when it makes sense for their family unit. Yes, this only works when the money is there. That will always be true.

    Like

  64. Daisy, writes novels, where she’ll write sometimes 10 lengthy responses, so I gloss over her novel trying to isolate the point she is making.

    A pitiful excuse for not listening to her. She is making her point just fine and actually backing it up to substantiate her claims, and you’re ignoring her. I have had similar life experience to hers. I mean, gosh, how did you even survive college if you can’t read a few paragraphs of argumentation? Maybe you should argue on Twitter where the word counts are nice and small so you don’t hurt your poor little head.

    Thankfully, chauvinism is shrinking in America and their view of the woman’s “place” is in the home, which is purposely degrading their value, forgetting that without her, he is nothing.

    Are you joking? Go hang out on Breitbart sometime. I used to have a Disqus account and would comment there, being conservative and wanting something other than CNN for news. I found myself being verbally abused by men’s rights activists, who told me all women deserved to be raped, including me. I increasingly found Breitbart catering to these MRA dweeves in their op-eds. Sorry, chauvinism is alive and well, and isn’t dying anytime soon. Back to CNN it is. (Actually, I’m liking Reuters a bit these days.)

    I’ve seen unrealistic expectations that both left leaning and right leaning believers and non-believers are either embracing or enduring. As a whole society is unsympathetic with the capacities that others have, including the work place. The way to discover someone’s capacity is when they get hurt, which is what happen to me.

    And? Having one spouse stay at home won’t change that. You just end up with one spouse still overworked and having to take even more jobs to pay for the support of the other spouse. In many cases, (and I’ll use husband as an example since it’s usually the husband working while the wife stays home), the husband can get resentful and even devalue the wife’s contributions to the home, thinking that they are less valuable than what he does at work. After all, what the wife does at home is rated at minimum wage in the working world, so anything the husband does that isn’t a household chore is considered worth more. These women end up feeling like they are financial burdens. This, in turn, is rubbed in the wife’s face as an excuse to make her be more servile, i.e., the husband’s slave.

    I lived this, with my father, so I know what I’m talking about.

    As for prior to the Industrial Revolution, both men and women worked hard on the farm, in the smithy, etc. It was normal for the wife to share her husband’s profession, i.e., if her husband was a blacksmith, she knew how to run the family smithy and could take it over if she were widowed.

    By the way, if people have only recently been worked to death, then why were there peasant revolts? Why do you think unions exist, for that matter?

    Let’s face it, we’re all peasants to our corporate overlords, and we’re all just trying to eat. Which is why I grow tired of brain-dead pastors who don’t work in the real world tell us how we should give up living in nicer, more crime-free neighborhoods and live in slums so that the wifey can stay at home and homeschool the kids. I spent my early childhood in a gang-ridden neighborhood with drive-bys. It took a lot for my parents to get out of it. My dad resisted because he felt it costed too much, especially with my mom not working, but ultimately, safety won out, and the cost of having the cars repeatedly stolen and stripped outweighed the cost of rent in a better, more suburbian neighborhood. With my mom not working (too sick), my family sunk into further debt–the price of escaping, and yet another thing my father rubbed in her face. Because he’d rather us die in a drive-by. But that’s another story for another time.

    Sorry you’re overworked. Most people are. It’s not like we don’t all want time off and flex hours and more time with family. Even my UC Berkeley ultra liberal feminist grads at my workplace want that. They’re realists, living in the real world. But we need to eat. Stop the criticism and get over it. And if women feel like they are working two jobs when they work outside the home, it’s because their lazy husbands aren’t helping with the kids. Maybe instead of criticizing women for needing to eat and feed their kids because their husbands’ income isn’t getting it done, you should criticize the lazy, entitled husbands.

    I’ll be doing my big book signing for this epic novel at Barnes & Noble from noon to 3pm. See you there!

    Liked by 1 person

  65. In many cases, (and I’ll use husband as an example since it’s usually the husband working while the wife stays home), the husband can get resentful and even devalue the wife’s contributions to the home, thinking that they are less valuable than what he does at work.

    CA, this is an excellent point.

    MRAs/Incels and the general manosphere is a bit confused on this point too. They go back and forth from calling women ‘gold diggers’ and calling them lazy for sitting at home all day watching soaps or something, and complaining that they want to work instead of doing ‘traditional women’s work’ like making sandwiches. Maddening stuff.

    Liked by 1 person

  66. It’s not like we don’t all want time off and flex hours and more time with family.

    I know that’s right. It’s been over 15 years since I had more than a week off and I’m actually really lucky about the amount of leave I have at work! But it is a bit hard to feel enormous sympathy for people who complain that their wife had to actually get a job after taking a period of time off and how sad it is. I mean, ok? Figure out who you’re asking for sympathy before it starts to come off a little ‘my diamond shoes are too tight’ to people.

    I’ll be doing my big book signing for this epic novel at Barnes & Noble from noon to 3pm. See you there!

    LOL. I enjoyed coming to your Ted Talk 🙂

    Like

  67. @Lea

    MRAs/Incels and the general manosphere is a bit confused on this point too. They go back and forth from calling women ‘gold diggers’ and calling them lazy for sitting at home all day watching soaps or something, and complaining that they want to work instead of doing ‘traditional women’s work’ like making sandwiches. Maddening stuff.

    THIS! You can’t win with these people. You’re a gold digger if you want to be a stay at home mom, or you’re a feminazi if you want to work. And no matter how hard you might work at home, your work is devalued. I think it’s intentional, so that women are guilted into being slaves to their husbands.

    I remember many years ago hanging out on the Focus on the Family’s Boundless Webzine blog (for singles), and some of the guys there would comment how they wished women weren’t financially dependent, so that we would have to marry them ( so they wouldn’t have to be single anymore). Ugh. It’s all entitlement meant to enslave. They are intimidated by us being able to feed ourselves, because now they actually have to try being nice if they want to get married, and that just won’t do.

    And yes, the same guys would also be worried about gold diggers. Can’t. Win.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. I remember many years ago hanging out on the Focus on the Family’s Boundless Webzine blog (for singles), and some of the guys there would comment how they wished women weren’t financially dependent.

    Oops! The above should read “financially INDEPENDENT”. I.e., they want women financially dependent on THEM instead of an employer so that we have to marry the first slob (them) that comes along so that we aren’t starving. All while feeling that women are using them for their wallets. Can’t make this up!

    Liked by 1 person

  69. The above should read “financially INDEPENDENT”.

    Ha! I got you, Clockwork Angel.

    They are intimidated by us being able to feed ourselves, because now they actually have to try being nice if they want to get married, and that just won’t do.

    That’s exactly it I believe. Many men don’t seem to want to have to be kind to women or do anything for them. Rather they wanted to be handed a sex slave/maid who will also have kids and ‘love’ them. I saw a thread the other day complaining that love wasn’t ‘unconditional’ anymore: ie men actually had to do something I guess? Very strange way of thinking to me.

    Also, after reading up on abuse, particularly financial abuse, this stuff really rings a lot of negative bells for me because money in these situations = control.

    Liked by 1 person

  70. D –

    This conversation changed gears and now is centered around parents in their 40’s choosing a major of a 20 year old college student entering their junior year, so their kids will be able to have the flexibility to take care of them, which by and large is non-sense.

    That is what you construed my words to mean, and in fact you took great liberties with saying that somehow families decided which child would deal with “family emergencies”.

    I said, “It’s assumed in our culture that women will take the “caregiver” role in families.”

    You said, “Mark, when a 20 year old man or woman is pursuing a teaching degree or any job that gives them extra time off, they aren’t thinking emergency, but instead getting out of the house. And parents and other family members aren’t thinking “we know who to call, when an emergency occurs””

    So, honestly, I think you turned my point about SOCIETAL pressure into parents choosing a major for their 20 year old child. In fact, YOU seem to be the one fixated on 20 year olds and career choices, since you introduced the topic: “I was talking about nudging my 20 year old son to understand that sitting around for the rest of his life wasn’t an option…”

    So, let me get this straight. You purposefully steered a conversation about how societal pressure towards women leads to certain career choices and careers with high female to male ratios down a rabbit hole of parents pushing their 20 year old children in their career choices, and now you’re declaring this “non-sense”?

    I’m saying that SOCIETY pushes women towards “feminine” roles. First of all, wife and mother. And then, as a side effect, the career choices that are generally compatible with those “feminine” roles.

    Just as an example, it was 1992 when Dan Quayle railed against Murphy Brown for having a baby as a single woman out of wedlock. The media thought this was a great way to lampoon Quayle for his backward views, but, to their surprise, the public mostly sided with him… and apparently, it’s still wasn’t considered a backwards view in 2012. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/20-years-later-it-turns-out-dan-quayle-was-right-about-murphy-brown-and-unmarried-moms/2012/05/25/gJQAsNCJqU_story.html

    Liked by 1 person

  71. I’ve written a bunch of posts and subsequently deleted them… I thought I had posted this:

    Students get plenty of advice about picking a major. It turns out, though, that most of it is from family and friends, according to a September Gallup survey. Only 11 percent had sought guidance from a high school counselor, and 28 percent from a college adviser. And most didn’t think that the advice was especially helpful. Maybe it’s because much of the conventional thinking about majors is wrong.

    Also in the article:

    Of students who said they felt committed to their major when they arrived on campus, 20 percent had selected a new major by the end of their first year, according to a national survey by the University of California, Los Angeles.

    Changing majors can cost you a semester or two, especially if you switch to one unrelated to your first choice. To reduce that risk, several schools, including Arizona State University, Georgia State University and Lehman College in the Bronx, have created “meta-majors,” which group majors under a larger academic umbrella.

    Of course, lower income students may not have the opportunity to lose a semester or two…

    Also, another article said that statistically, students are more likely to change majors out of STEM fields (primarily math), which might suggest that parents are pushing them into STEM, which is considered to be higher-paying, but when they cannot handle the academic rigor, they switch majors.

    Like

  72. Only 11 percent had sought guidance from a high school counselor, and 28 percent from a college adviser.

    Hi Mark. My high school guidance counselor was had maybe 500 students and was a hundred percent useless. In fact, I had an appointment set up with the representative of college of my choice (where I ended up attending) that she CANCELLED without TELLING ME because she thought my band director probably wouldn’t have let me out early enough to make it. Meanwhile, I had worked everything out with her. I had a good long frustrated chat with the APrincipal about it. Ugh. Basically all they did other than that was rubber stamp your class schedule.

    Thinking of people I know and the majors and paths they chose, your family has an enormous, outsized impact on all of it. And changing course mid career can be expensive, but many still do it. I don’t know what the solution is, though.

    Like

  73. Clock,

    You wrote: “And? Having one spouse stay at home won’t change that. ”

    You are right about that, but that is not what I implied. Unless he has a less labor intense job that pays enough that his spouse stays home. But then the likelihood of him getting hurt diminishes.

    What I implied is there are fewer jobs that pay high enough that allows flexibility for one or both spouses to work less physically demanding careers while daily maintaining the home and raising a family at the same time.

    What everyone is saying here, is the majority of those taking on jobs that allow more flexibility and days off is a result of “cultural pressure”, when in fact most that choose those careers want those extra 50 days off in the year.

    More than ever, many marriages w/kids don’t have options of one spouse staying home even if they wanted to or don’t have more flexibility within their tight schedules.

    In fact there are more that work out of the home, that would prefer be at home to take care of the kids and domestic stuff than those that would prefer working who have kids than stay home.

    Don’t misunderstand this fact, I know there are many that want to work regardless of circumstances.

    My words have been skimmed over or simply ignored about the trauma my mom went through and what it is really like for many women like her, if you have read every single post that everyone has written hear, (including Daisy’s then you are the better person than I, if not, does that make you pitiful?

    Like

  74. Mark,

    I didn’t suggest 20 year old students deciding on a major when they are entering their Junior Year, didn’t seek guidance or discuss options with family or counselors.

    Seeking guidance or talking about options with parents isn’t cultural pressure, It isn’t the same as what you were implying.

    What I suggested is their 40ish and 50ish aged parents aren’t telling them to choose a major in order to be available in case of an emergency, which is what you were implying.

    Like

  75. I’m not fixated about a college student entering his or her junior year deciding on a major, because that is the norm for most students. That is not to say that students won’t change majors, which is what my son did.

    Like

  76. Lea,

    What works for you may not work for others,

    I’m sure when start using personal leave available to you, you’ll be glad you did. Even so you do have options.

    I’ve known others that does the same, and when they began using those days, they were glad they had them.

    Like

  77. Lea,What works for you may not work for others, I’m sure when start using personal leave available to you, you’ll be glad you did. Even so you do have options.

    What are you talking about? I do use my leave but I can’t take off months or years at a time to do stuff at the house and errands and what not. That is what I am saying.

    You ask for all this sympathy, for yourself, your wife, your mother, but you don’t bother to even acknowledge that we all have stuff going on. You bang on about double incomes and how it’s sad that some spouses are forced to work without acknowledging that a bunch of us have been rolling with one for life.

    You admittedly skim people’s comments so much that you miss major points and misstate what people have said.

    I’m not really interested in having a conversation that’s not a conversation. That’s all.

    Liked by 1 person

  78. D – “Seeking guidance or talking about options with parents isn’t cultural pressure, It isn’t the same as what you were implying.”

    We keep running in circles. Every person has bias and that bias shows up in what news sources we seek out, the things we talk about and how we talk about those things. We then naturally seek out people with the same sorts of biases because they have similar interests and morality. Then we raise our children around people with the same biases, interests and morality. My daughters are screwed. Most of their female adult relatives are or were educators and stay-at-home-moms.

    So, when they get career advice from their family and friends, they get that career advice from people with similar backgrounds and cultural biases. Just because we’ve tried not to pre-evaluate their friends doesn’t mean that they don’t gravitate towards friends with similar social beliefs.

    A similar example to what I said before. If I move into a neighborhood with beautifully manicured lawns, then I know I will stick out like a sore thumb if I let my lawn wither and die. No neighbor has to say a word. Maybe they do walk by and stare, but just driving down my street and seeing green lawn after green lawn and then mine brown and weed-ridden has a psychological effect.

    You seem to be implying that, when I say “cultural pressure” what I mean is that all the female teacher relatives I have got locked in a room by their parents who pulled out a belt and said. “YOU WILL BE A TEACHER. OR ELSE!” You’re ignoring comment after comment where I say stuff like the above – that it is subtle, but powerful influence. Almost all the female role models my kids have are teachers. You don’t think that is “cultural pressure”?

    Liked by 1 person

  79. Mark,

    I’m not saying as an example one of your definitions of “cultural pressure” is a parent threatening their kid to pick a career that I say “OR ELSE”

    What I think you are implying is when a child reaches the age of 20 and chooses a major, (like education), that he/she is doing it under “cultural pressure” to please and avail themselves to others instead of pleasing themselves or wanting career option (like educating kids,) but also a career that gives them more flexibility to be with their kids and an added 50 days off in a year compared to most working other jobs,

    I will concede however, there are times when kids are growing up in a family business there is cultural pressure to take over the business when they turn into adulthood. The pressure can be more intense, if the child wants nothing to do with the business.

    I’ve also seen cases in close knit families where the adult children feel compelled of having an aging parent stay with them or in a “granny or grampy house” next to their home, instead of putting them in an assisted living facility.

    Like

  80. D – “that he/she is doing it under “cultural pressure” to please and avail themselves to others instead of pleasing themselves or wanting career option (like educating kids,)”

    So, when you had your talk with your son, was it “please us” or was it “please yourself”? It seems like you’re setting up a false dichotomy.

    You’re still thinking “cultural pressure” as a very direct approach. If someone grows up around a family business, the role that the family intends for them is probably not some secret that gets hinted at here and there. It’s probably the topic at family dinners. It probably steers decisions made by the family about what educational options will be taken. I had a classmate who was getting a business degree because he was being prepared to take over his family business.

    What I’m saying about cultural pressure. My daughter has lots of female adult relatives. So far all are… teachers, caregivers or stay-at-home moms. Based on some of her aptitudes, I’ve encouraged her to try other things – computer club, robotics club, and I’ve offered to take a drawing class with her sometime. No one is going to disown her if she decides to go into engineering, but women, in general, don’t know how to relate to other women who are in vastly different fields. My wife has friends that are in technology and they’ve told her that they have a hard time connecting with other women because of their occupational choices. Again, most women in my wife’s circles are stay-at-home moms, teachers or caregivers.

    Liked by 1 person

  81. See, D, you made a bunch of untrue accusations about me in an earlier ppost,
    made an assumption about my personal life that was false
    (I am not married, don’t have a maid),
    but you never did walk this back, did you? –

    D said,

    Daisy, it seems you are trivializing the toll, the body is taking on those that work outside the home and then going home and take care of the domestic stuff and the, kids is comparable to working 2 jobs.

    Maybe those with high paying jobs can afford to pay a maid, but most can’t.

    Do you have a maid?

    I don’t see where you corrected yourself on any of that.

    Or addressed this…
    _Facebook Accused of Allowing Bias Against Women in Job Ads_

    _‘I Work 3 Jobs And Donate Blood Plasma to Pay the Bills.’ This Is What It’s Like to Be a Teacher in America_ – via TIME magazine, Sept. 2018 article._

    Like

  82. D said,

    Daisy, writes novels, where she’ll write sometimes 10 lengthy responses, so I gloss over her novel trying to isolate the point she is making.

    Yes, just like KAS.

    And spoken like the guy who babbles on and on about a bunch of minor topics for days on end while ignoring other people’s main points.

    Why do I make so many posts replying to yours? One reason…
    It’s called I’m citing references (usually via links to articles, with excerpts) to show I’m not making sh-t up,
    and I also cite real-world examples that counter your personal opinions and comments.

    You accused me of a bunch of untrue stuff on your last post, I called you out on it, and you didn’t apologize or say, “I was mistaken” for any of that.

    Yet you’re usually demanding everyone gives you apologies over really minute stuff that nobody else in their right mind would consider offensive to start with.

    Like

  83. D said,

    My dentist is 50 and his practice is financially cruising,

    And I just left you a post up above with quotes from actual Dental Hygienists who have said that being in the dental field is only a picnic for dentists.

    Many DHs whose posts I read on career forums, some of whom are single mothers,

    Leave comments on job forums saying how their dentist boss does not give them sick leave, paid days off,

    and, furthermore, they don’t like flex hours because they need the pay more than the days off – their dentist bosses don’t pay them for days off, and they need that money.

    I saw very few female DHs on the job forums who said they like DH as a career and/or the flex schedule.

    All that contradicts the super rosy picture you paint of people who supposedly love flex schedules especially ones who work for dentists.

    Like

  84. Lea said

    D, you completely ignored everything I said.

    If you want to write monologues about the handful of things that matter to you, while not responding to other people in good faith, have at it.

    Not my blog, I am fully cognizant of that,
    But I have asked our ‘Blog Mistress’ in private more than once if she would please consider putting him (and the other guy, if you know who I mean) on mute, slow moderation, or having separate threads where they are limited to posting.

    I don’t think either one is here to post constructively or in good faith.

    Like

  85. D, who must not watch the news often,
    and who has apparently never heard of the MeToo movement, said,

    Thankfully, chauvinism is shrinking in America and their view of the woman’s “place” is in the home, which is purposely degrading their value, forgetting that without her, he is nothing.

    Just today I saw this:

    _Spotify sued for gender discrimination and equal pay violation_

    Sept 2018

    A former female employee alleges ‘boys’ trips’ to strip clubs and that an executive was promoted after sexual harassment warnings.

    _Spotify sued by former sales employee over gender discrimination and equal pay violations_

    Like

  86. Lea said to D

    D, you should stop making assumptions about people and read what they actually write. Daisy isn’t married.

    You have asked for sympathy many times from various single people for having both spouses have to work and do domestic duties! Like all single people have to do, and they can’t split it by half either.

    Newflash. TONS of people would love for work to be an ‘option’.

    It simply isn’t for most of them. Your dental hygienist who is happy for a 4 day week probably has a second income in the family, but what if she didn’t. She would need another, different job. Lots of teachers have second jobs, btw.

    BTW, about this.

    Most of the women I am related to, they work outside the home, but the husband or live-in male lover does not hold a job, but sits about in the den all day in their underwear watching sports on television or they play video games all day while the wife or girlfriend works.

    This is true of my sister.

    She had a live in BF (boyfriend) for over two decades, she paid all the bills, and her BF while home all day would not do housework.

    So when my sister got off her long shifts working retail, she would have to clean dishes, fold laundry, etc.

    But “D” seems to be living in some kind of world where everyone is married, the man has a 9 to 5, and the wife is June Cleaver and stays at home all day baking casseroles. LOL.

    Sorry, but this is not life for many of the women I know.

    Like

  87. Mark,

    We already talked about this, and you didn’t like the ideas I gave my son, or at least tried to pick holes in my methodology and thinking.

    When I talked to my son, he was navigating through life unsure about what he was going to do with himself, it was 2 years after he had graduated from high school.

    He spent a couple of years in California, 1st year at a bible school and then decided that wasn’t for him and took the next year off and played video games with his friends who also didn’t have a vision.

    This was in 2009 and America had begun a meltdown where 10 million jobs were lost and employers weren’t hiring.

    My son’s options were limited as his only source of income was commercial fishing during the summer months and he hated doing that, but treated it like an end to a means.

    If he wants independence, I told him whatever he chooses, to pick something he would enjoy doing, but doing nothing won’t help him maintain his independence very much longer.

    So I gave him a few ideas, because like going to trade school, or go to culinary school because he liked cooking, go work in a cannery, go to the Bering Sea or the North Slope, go into the military, work in a coffee shop or a grocery store or go take a couple of classes at a junior college or something. He later admitted that he appreciated that chat after he got his English Degree last year.

    I gave all 3 of my kids the same advice, find a job or career they love doing that will sustain a living.

    Like

  88. Clockwork Angel said

    I’ll be doing my big book signing for this epic novel at Barnes & Noble from noon to 3pm. See you there!

    Just letting you know I read and enjoyed your post, but D has essentially admitted he scrolls past any post more than three sentences long, I guess because he has the attention span of a gnat…

    And he’s anxious, oh so anxious, to write another long-ish post of his own where he pontificates (in a rambling fashion) about some small point that seems unrelated to most of what the rest of us have been discussing.

    Like

  89. Lea said,

    MRAs/Incels and the general manosphere is a bit confused on this point too. They go back and forth from calling women ‘gold diggers’ and calling them lazy for sitting at home all day watching soaps or something, and complaining that they want to work instead of doing ‘traditional women’s work’ like making sandwiches. Maddening stuff.

    My impression of these types of men I see online:

    “I hate women!

    I think rape and murder of women should be legal, those b-tches deserve it!

    I want a girlfriend who will cater to my every need, but she shouldn’t expect a d-mn thing from me in return!!

    Why oh why am I still single? I don’t understand how a great guy like me is still unattached.

    Why don’t women want me?
    I hate them, I hate women, they should be hanged or run over with cars, all hail Elliot Rodger, the Incel Hero and Killer of Women!

    I am such a catch. I am such a nice guy, but those Stacies only want Chads.”

    -Yeah, that is their nasty, hate-filled, crazy attitude which drives all women away, but they can’t imagine why no woman wants to date them.

    (And why do they want to date women since they hate women so much?)

    Like

  90. Daisy,

    I never lived in a June Cleaver environment, maybe you skimmed through what my parents went through, working 50 weeks a year with different shifts and working themselves into the ground.

    It is happening even more in 2018 than it did in 1970.

    Some prefer living like that regardless if they have kids or not, but most couples that have kids don’t like it, because it is mentally and physically exhausting.

    When I suggested that I’ve witnessed and have friends who pursued career options that gave them more flexibility, I got push back because they were “culturally pressured” to pursue those jobs. Call it what you will, but they are happy having that extra 50 days off.

    But hey, if you like what you are doing what’s the difference?

    Like

  91. Clockwork Angel said,

    I remember many years ago hanging out on the Focus on the Family’s …

    Focus on the Family.
    Don’t get me started.

    CA said,

    I remember many years ago hanging out on the Focus on the Family’s Boundless Webzine blog (for singles)

    Boundless forums / magazine for Christian adult singles.
    Don’t get me started.

    CA said,

    I remember many years ago hanging out on the Focus on the Family’s Boundless Webzine blog (for singles), and some of the guys there would comment how they wished women weren’t financially dependent, so that we would have to marry them ( so they wouldn’t have to be single anymore).

    OMG.

    Complementarianism is probably behind a lot of that, I’d assume.

    Regardless of where it comes from, I’d much rather remain single than marry a guy like that and be a Stepford Wife.

    Those kinds of men can live with their fantasy of the enslaved, ever-compliant wife while remaining indefinitely single in the real world for perpetuity.

    Like

  92. CA said

    And yes, the same guys would also be worried about gold diggers. Can’t. Win.

    Oh please. (Which I say to men like that, not to you.)

    In my relationship with my ex fiance, I was the pot of gold and HE was the gold digger!
    He took many thousands from me and never re-paid them.

    Most of the female relatives that come to my mind are in marriages, or long term relationships, where they work and pay the bills while the husband/BF sits around all day watching the NFL on television.

    One Aunt of mine has a full time job.
    Her spouse, meanwhile, sits around in a pair of denim over-alls all day in a recliner watching sports on TV when he is not sitting on a bar stool at the corner bar drinking beers.

    I never see these men with sexist dispositions who think all women are gold-diggers think about, notice, or admit that there are a lot of MALE gold-diggers who prey on women.

    Oh, if you want a ton of examples of such a thing, get a copy of the book:
    ‘The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans’

    In her updated version of that book, in one of the end chapters, she has case study after case study of GFs (or wives) whose BFs (or husbands) financially took advantage of them.

    Lundy Bancroft also mentions a category of abusive men in his book about domestic abuse who never hit women, but they do take and take all the woman’s money and/or homes or cars.

    Like

  93. Mark regarding your post and ones like it of
    SEPTEMBER 19, 2018 @ 1:52 PM

    I just wanted to say you may be the “D” Whisperer. You seem to actually kind of be able to put together and follow his odd posting style.

    I tip my hat to you, sir. 🙂

    And it’s true that in American cultures and many others, females are usually expected to be care-takers of the younger children when growing up (helping the mother care for the kids), or,

    When older, daughters (not sons) are usually expected by parents and the culture to do care-taking for elderly parents, not just in the form of paying for stuff,
    but, actually providing hands-on care, such as changing adult diapers and feeding their mom or dad.

    That is because we have these sexist gender expectations in place that say care-taking (of kids or of frail adults) should be done by women, not by men, for sexist assumptions X, Y, and Z (women are more gentle than men, whatever).

    (continued in next post)

    Like

  94. Mark regarding your post
    SEPTEMBER 19, 2018 @ 1:52 PM

    I will offer a caveat here about the care-taking topic. Usually, one will find women taking care of the sick, elderly, or kids (due to sexist gender roles)… but…

    That guy who financially exploited me who I was engaged to: he had a severe, severe case of “Mama’s Boy.”

    He kept putting his mother before our relationship (even when she was nasty to me with no good cause).
    His mother was married to his step-father, and she had brothers who lived by her, and some adult step sons, and one other adult son.

    Well, my ex once quit a job it had taken him months to get when his mother fell down due to emphysema, I think it was.

    When his boss wouldn’t give my then-fiancee a day off to go be with his sick mother and then take her to a doctor, my ex simply took off from the job to go be with Mama, so the boss fired him.

    I was like, “Why didn’t she call 9-1-1 if she needed assistance?”

    He was like, “Because she lives outside of the city limits, where 911 services do not go. She and my step dad like to live in the middle of nowhere.”

    I was like, dude, I don’t think I can marry a guy who just up and quits a job like that. You have to be financially stable and responsible.

    He was like, “But my Mom was sick.”

    I was like, “I know, but she already has a husband, and you’re not him. She could’ve phoned one of her neighbors, an adult brother of hers, or her adult step son or that dude’s wife to help her if she needed help. And how stupid is it that she and her spouse chose to live in an area that gets no cop or ambulance service, and she ain’t getting any younger.”

    Occasionally, then, you will see this gender thing flipped around like that where a man acts as some kind of care-taker, but it doesn’t seem to be as common as vice versa.

    (My ex was far more dedicated to his mother than he ever was to me, one reason of 564 that I broke up with him.)

    Like

  95. (sorry this is a kind of off topic)
    Mark,
    Re: your SEPTEMBER 19, 2018 @ 2:10 PM.
    (With the NY Times article about picking a college major.)

    I should probably google that and read it if I can.
    I am thinking about going back to school and changing careers but don’t know which area of study / career to choose.

    A friend of mine asked me to take online career tests, which I did, and almost all of them say I would be great, really awesome and suited for “Career X.”

    Well, my background is already in “Career X,” the one I’m trying to get away from, LOL. (Sometimes this makes me want to cry, not LOL.)

    Like

  96. D said

    What everyone is saying here, is the majority of those taking on jobs that allow more flexibility and days off is a result of “cultural pressure”, when in fact most that choose those careers want those extra 50 days off in the year.

    What I’ve been saying all along is that there can be many factors that come into play as to why people choose what careers they do, but one factor of several can include gender bias.

    If some women who have kids want flex schedules to spend more time with the kids, that is another part of gender bias:
    women are expected to be the primary care-takers of children, not men.

    said

    My words have been skimmed over or simply ignored about the trauma my mom went through and what it is really like for many women like her, if you have read every single post that everyone has written hear, (including Daisy’s then you are the better person than I, if not, does that make you pitiful?)

    I’ve read or skimmed all your posts.
    You just often don’t make much sense.

    You don’t explain what all your meandering has to do with any of the main points of discussion.

    Like

  97. D said

    What I think you are implying is when a child reaches the age of 20 and chooses a major, (like education), that he/she is doing it under “cultural pressure”…

    The culture influences girls when they are still very small, even before they start school, and it works over their life-times.

    The gender expectations don’t just suddenly impact a 20 year old female when she hits 20 as to which career to enter into.

    Studies have shown that kids by age four or five have already begun to to internalize their culture’s gender role expectations.

    (I would give you links with excerpts to those studies to prove that, but you’d just complain that my posts are too long.)

    Like

  98. D said

    Call it what you will, but they are happy having that extra 50 days off.

    I already replied to that here, bottom half of post.

    It was one of my posts you chose to ignore.

    Not all Dental Hygienists get “50 extra days off” but have to take days off with no pay, which they gripe about on job forums..

    You seem to be promoting a June Cleaver existence for women in your posts.

    You are still missing Mark’s and my points.

    Like

  99. My daughter has lots of female adult relatives. So far all are… teachers, caregivers or stay-at-home moms. Based on some of her aptitudes, I’ve encouraged her to try other things

    Mark, kids don’t only look towards female relatives. She may very well take after you in that. I wouldn’t worry.

    Like

  100. I don’t think I can marry a guy who just up and quits a job like that. You have to be financially stable and responsible.

    Counterpoint, a job that won’t give you a day for a family emergency is likely not going to be a good place to work.

    Like

  101. My words have been skimmed over or simply ignored about the trauma my mom went through and what it is really like for many women like her

    And D has ignored what it’s like for everyone else. I am generally speaking suspicious of people who, rather than arguing in good faith, throw in a story clearly seeking sympathy and then complain that they haven’t gotten enough. It seems to be a common tactic.

    Liked by 1 person

  102. Lea, Mark, Daisy,

    I have no tactics with you, if I have been rude to you I apologize. One thing I noticed is it seems life is getting harder now, on kids. Maybe I’m a kid at heart,

    I think all of us are having a “discussion” in good faith with the allotted time we have to check or skim through one another’s comments.

    I loved my mom, who worked harder than she should’ve. Maybe I was looking through the eyes of a child wanting to have been able to spend more time with her when I was younger, especially summers. She’s passed.

    I can’t do this anymore, I wish you the best.

    Like

  103. D – “We already talked about this, and you didn’t like the ideas I gave my son, or at least tried to pick holes in my methodology and thinking.”

    That wasn’t my intent. I was trying to point out that family career discussions can’t happen in a bubble immune from any cultural pressure. You probably know your son the best of any of his pool of career advisors, but you probably don’t have as good insight to the pool of available careers, their pros and cons, and what it really takes to succeed. That is the same for all of us, so we are going to tend to gravitate towards known careers. For example, my kids didn’t go into karate, gymnastics or field hockey, not because they didn’t have the aptitude, but simply because I wasn’t familiar with those sports options, their pros and cons and whether they would fit. In the same way, if my eldest wants to go into art, it’s a huge unknown. So, I’m going to be naturally resistant to the idea – I know that art is a difficult career to make a living in, but that’s about it. I don’t know how to determine her aptitude. I do have some acquaintances that are artists, so I would probably start there.

    The idea that “art is a difficult career to make a living in” is a cultural bias, and if I steer my daughter away from it because of my cultural bias, I’m applying cultural pressure. It’s not necessarily unwarranted, but I have to take a step back when I have these conversations with my daughter and ask myself whether I’m being honest and fact-based, or whether I’m simply repeating what I’ve heard before.

    That is one form of cultural bias. Now, let’s take societal ideas of what women are good at and what women should do. They’re more than just ideas since many were codified in policy guides. For example, my grandmother was forced to quit her teaching job when she got married because she was “taking a job away” from someone who had to support his family. There is a lot of resistance towards women in certain roles. For example, the Google engineer who wrote a multi-page diatribe on how women were genetically inferior to men. Daisy mentioned the lawsuits against Facebook, Spotify and others for discrimination.

    But we need to dig into why this Google engineer felt comfortable writing this diatribe. His understanding of women was grossly wrong. Yet, he was convinced in his misunderstanding that women were inferior in technical roles, so convinced he felt it needed to be said in order to save Google from making bad decisions (i.e. hiring women for technical roles they were unqualified for). So, since his understanding was grossly wrong, yet he was fully convinced that he was right, what do we say? I think that he had a very strong cultural bias against women. I doubt he is the only person with that bias (consider how popular “complementarian” views of women are), and we at least have to be honest that if this one person was bold enough to write his cultural bias in black and white that there are probably millions who are going to be bold enough to make offhanded remarks. Those are especially damaging when those people are, for example, math teachers, shop teachers or other people in trusted roles.

    Like

  104. Lea said,

    Counterpoint, a job that won’t give you a day for a family emergency is likely not going to be a good place to work.

    He had been working at that job for only one or two days (not exaggerating, it was only one – two days) when this incident happened.

    So, on his first or second day of the job, he asked his brand new boss for a few days off to go take care of his Mom.

    And … futher… he got this job after a gap of employment that had gone on for several months.

    There were not many companies in his profession hiring at that point, and he confided in me at that time he was very worried, he had never seen it that bad before.

    He had quit his last position, and when he went looking for a new one, months went by with no luck, until he got this new one, which he quit after only his 1st or 2nd day there because the Boss Man wouldn’t give him a few days off.

    There was no way I was going to marry a guy who up and quits a job like that.

    I could just see marrying him and every time Mama had some issue, he’d quit whatever job he had to run off and care for her (as though he were her husband – she already had one, his step-dad)

    Also, he was coming to me for money quit a bit, to pay his truck payments, for food, apartment rent, etc. I just know if he kept quitting jobs, he would come to me (before or after a marriage) expecting me to pay all the bills.

    He regularly made big money, like six figures, but he’d still come for me for money claiming he didn’t have any, and I earned far, far, far less.

    He also had a habit of putting his Mom before me all the time. I was second banana to his mom. He acted like he was married to his Mom. She was his wife, I was left-overs.

    Like

  105. Lea said

    And D has ignored what it’s like for everyone else. I am generally speaking suspicious of people who, rather than arguing in good faith, throw in a story clearly seeking sympathy and then complain that they haven’t gotten enough. It seems to be a common tactic.

    The other guy who was posting here regularly (he really liked to chime in on the complementarian threads, he was a complementarian) was pulling this (I think you know who I mean).

    I find that very hypocritical and suspicious.

    He was very, very indifferent to anyone else’s pain, and as to why some of us here posted here in the first place, like to condescendingly lecture us on how he believed we “should” talk about our pain or abuse, etc., that we should be “more nice” in how we talked.

    I never saw him empathize with anyone here or say, “I’m sorry to hear about your experiences.”

    But once things got really heated after X months of him on this blog, he started obliquely sharing some personal trauma he claimed he and his family were under-going (I asked for details, never saw him give any, so I don’t even really know what he was getting at).

    Then he claimed to be miffed and offended that I was not showing him empathy.

    This is the guy who regularly was cold and dismissive of CH’s, Dash’s, my and whomever else’s upset, but then started demanding that we show him empathy.

    If you want empathy from me, and after months of giving nothing but coldness and dismissivness to others and/or myself, you’re probably not going to get any.

    It’s astounding, the amount of entitlement – step all over other people for months and then claim to be hurt when those same people don’t show you the empathy you refused to give to them.

    My big sister kind of pulls that.
    She will be verbally abusive towards me, and if I call her out on it, she starts to act the wounded victim and asks me to feel sorry for her, that she’s only being nasty to me, she says, because her so life is so, so difficult, the poor thing.

    But it’s okay for her to walk all over my feelings – mine do not matter, only hers.

    Some of the posters on sites like this one operate in the same way.

    Like

  106. Also about this comment by Lea,

    Counterpoint, a job that won’t give you a day for a family emergency is likely not going to be a good place to work.

    I do agree with you in principle.

    But in that specific instance with my ex, and his pattern of poor fiscal decisions and what not, and I myself, when I’m hired by a new employer wouldn’t dream of asking for time off in the first six to 12 months, I couldn’t agree with the ex’s choice.

    The mother could’ve gotten her husband, an uncle, or the step son to help her, but he ran off to go help her.
    He acted like he was married to her, and that was a pattern with him.

    But I do think overall that employers should generally be understanding about giving a worker time off if there’s a family emergency.

    Like

  107. Mark said

    There is a lot of resistance towards women in certain roles. For example, the Google engineer who wrote a multi-page diatribe on how women were genetically inferior to men. Daisy mentioned the lawsuits against Facebook, Spotify and others for discrimination.

    That was James Damore.

    His Google Memo demonstrates that gender bias works in the other direction, too.

    Women get messages from the time they (we) are girls that they (we) are better, or should want to, be nurturing and look after and teach children (or work as nurses – care taking roles), we’re supposedly bad at math but better at language, etc., so we’re pushed into “girly-girl” professions and away from what is considered “manly-man” careers.

    I do agree that Damore’s memo was essentially saying that women are inferior to men (at STEM), but that view gets a lot of push back in some quarters, from people who are say, Jordan Peterson fans, who tell you,
    “If that’s what you think Damore’s memo said, you either didn’t read it or didn’t understand it.”

    I read his whole (very boring) memo, and I understood it.

    In that context of that Damore Google Memo…
    You get people who want to keep referencing some Finnish study saying that all things being equal (if a culture is considered equal to the genders), women will choose of their own accord to go into a Non-STEM career (this point is supposed to prove that women are biologically wired to dislike STEM and to avoid it),
    but I found another Finnish study (linked to on my Daisy blog) that said there are still traditional gender role expectations in Finland.

    According to the study (bottom half or so of _this page_)…
    Male bosses look askew at Finnish women in Finland who want to take on what are viewed as traditional male jobs and even Finnish women are encouraged by male bosses, schools, parents, etc. to take on traditional gender role views.

    I am concerned that even if it could be proven that women are biologically driven to prefer working at what are considered traditionally feminine occupations that culture would use that “fact” to bar women who don’t want to work in those areas, or to not pay them the same wages as a man in that same position.

    Not all women fit the gender role boxes their culture dictate.
    I was a tom boy when I was a girl, for instance. I did not like playing with dolls, being around babies and children, and so on.
    I have no desire in working in professions that would require me to be around a lot of kids.

    (There is no way I’d want to be day care worker or a teacher and work around children of any age. I might be able to barely tolerate high school – aged kids, but not five year old kids or junior high age.)

    I can just see if preferences for job choice based on innate gender differences could be proven, that men (and some women who are sexist against women) would use that as an excuse to hinder the women who do not fit the gender boxes who do want to apply for what are considered “male” careers.

    Anyway, American culture not only encourages girls into what are considered stereotypical womanly professions, but it also discourages girls away from what are thought of as “masculine” careers / courses of study.

    Like

  108. He had been working at that job for only one or two days (not exaggerating, it was only one – two days) when this incident happened.

    That is a little worse. But in a true emergency I would still expect an employer to let me off.

    That has no bearing on whether or not you were right to dump him though! Just a thought.

    Like

  109. I checked my Twitter and some of these headlines from Atlantic looked relevant to some of the conversations people were having in this thread

    _How Puberty Kills Girls’ Confidence_

    Excerpts:

    In their tween and teenage years, girls become dramatically less self-assured—a feeling that often lasts through adulthood.

    …Confidence is an essential ingredient for turning thoughts into action, wishes into reality.

    Moreover, when deployed, confidence can perpetuate and multiply itself. As boys and girls (and men and women) take risks and see the payoffs, they gain the courage to take more risks in the future.

    Conversely, confidence’s absence can inhibit the very sorts of behaviors—risk-taking, failure, and perseverance—that build it back up.

    So the cratering of confidence in girls is especially troubling because of long-term implications. It can mean that risks are avoided again and again, and confidence isn’t being stockpiled for the future. And indeed the confidence gender gap that opens at puberty often remains throughout adulthood.

    Additionally, at an early age, parents and teachers frequently encourage and reward girls’ people-pleasing, perfectionistic behavior, without understanding the consequences.

    Often, this is because it just makes parents’ and teachers’ lives easier: In a busy household or noisy classroom, who doesn’t want kids who color within the lines, follow directions, and don’t cause problems?

    But perfectionism, of course, inhibits risk-taking, a willingness to fail, and valuable psychological growth.
    “If life were one long grade school,” Carol Dweck, the Stanford psychologist who wrote The Growth Mindset, explained to us in an interview for our first book, women “would be the undisputed rulers of the world. But life isn’t one long grade school.”

    In fact, later in life, the goalposts shift considerably. “It rewards people who take risks and rebound,” added Dweck. And the boys in our survey seemed to have a greater appetite for risk-taking…

    …Adding to this, many girls are also wise enough by the age of 12 to see that the world still treats men and women differently—that dings their confidence, too.

    …It’s essential to close the gap, and to do so early, because the long-term effects of these dynamics hurt not only girls, but the women they become, who often, within a few years of entering the workforce, experience another confidence drop, and a drop in aspirations.

    Their rule-following, good-girl methods have been celebrated, rewarded by a structured educational and societal system.

    It’s a shock to arrive in the adult world and discover a dramatically new playing field: Failure is okay. Risk is worth it.

    No wonder they struggle:
    Their whole lives, to date, they’ve internalized just the opposite, a societal bait and switch that should be recognized.

    Girls are adept at learning—they just need the right study guide.

    Like

  110. _A Lack of Confidence Isn’t What’s Holding Back Working Women_

    by STÉPHANIE THOMSON

    Women are hesitant to talk up their accomplishments because they are often penalized when they do.

    …Together, two new pieces of research are helping identify why it’s so hard for women to boast about their accomplishments.

    The first study, conducted by researchers at three European business schools, confirms what many working women instinctively know:

    While they might be told confidence is the key to professional success, that’s rarely the case in practice.

    Unless women can temper their assertiveness with more stereotypically feminine traits like empathy and altruism, confidence will do little to advance their careers.

    …While all that most men seem to need in order to succeed in the workplace is a little bit of spunk, women must learn how to master the art of appearing both sure of themselves and modest.

    Too much of the latter, and women’s achievements get overlooked. Too much of the former, and they can face what experts refer to as the “backlash effect”—social and professional sanctions for failing to conform to gender norms. For example, confident women are often perceived as less likeable and hireable.

    According to another recent study, it’s most often a fear of this backlash, and not a lack of confidence, that prevents many women from self-promoting.

    …Ultimately, the biggest problem with the confidence-gap theory is that it places the responsibility for closing the gender gap on individual women when the solution might instead lie beyond their control.

    … Smith, who has studied gender norms in the workplace, says that the strategies that make the biggest difference in women’s lack of self-promotion put the onus on companies, not the women who work in them.

    One simple tactic is for workplaces to normalize the practice of self-promotion, so that when women talk about their achievements, they are less likely to face the well-documented backlash. “Start each meeting by asking everyone to share one thing they’ve achieved since you last met,” Smith recommends.

    Like

  111. Great commentary and scholarship here, Daisy!

    You quoted, “Women are hesitant to talk up their accomplishments because they are often penalized when they do.”

    Wow! That truth should grace billboard across the world over, along major and minor highways. Is this not the truth with regards to the c’hurched as well as the unc’hurched. We are taught by religious folks, mainly the eldership, that we are to be humble, with the emphasis on women, more so than men, for women are to be seen, not heard in the apostate tribal herd. We are taught that we are not to speak in the assembly, we are to wear modest clothing so as to not cause one of our brothers(?) to sin, we are brainwashed into believing that our gender is far more emotional (yes, I am speaking to you as well Chris Rosebrough!), we are also taught to believe that our “anger” is not a righteous anger as opposed to the righteous anger of men(I am calling you out here KAS), we are taught that women are more easily deceived due to the fact that Eve ate of the fruit first, and we are taught that women are to blame for all of civilizations sins; past, present and future….for after all, Adam did blame Eve for his own decision to partake of the communal fruit/sin.

    Yes, women are taught, brainwashed, and manipulated into who exactly they should be from the beginning, especially with regards to false Christianity. Until the day arrives, when the Holy Spirit, prompts us to read, study, and meditate upon the Holy Scriptures for ourselves, with Christ as our Master Teacher. It is only then, that the Holy Spirit becomes active and living, piecing the believer’s soul with His truths, instead of the vain philosophies of mankind. It’s like having those scales that were on then Saul’s eyes, dropping off, as Christ revealed the truth to him all of those years ago.

    This is where we experience true freedom in Christ, no longer chained to the false teachings of “comp’s worm theology,” skillfully and carefully taught to women believers from the enemy camp. What garbage, what filthy rot the institutional c’hurch has succumbed too in teaching that women are under the authority of men.
    Who, pray tell will be standing before my LORD one day as my advocate……any earthly man…..or will it be Jesus Christ, Who says that He is our One and Only Mediator between our Father, Who art in Heaven, and us, His created beings? The answer is a no brainer….. “Jesus.”

    How often I have seen so called men’s eyes do the proverbial eye ball rolling into the backs of their heads within the 501 c. 3 c’hurch system, when women speak their testimonies, when women share their accomplishments (in the same fashion men do), when women discern the Holy Scriptures equally (or better in some cases) in discussions, when women encourage other believers in their faith and in their daily lives, when women rebuke men in not desiring them to stumble into false teachings/heresy/apostasy (there is always hell to pay when a women believer “corrects” a know it all male believer……trust me on this one 😦 ), or when women receive positive attention/recognition for anything (as in we are called to rejoice with those who rejoice). It’s as if the Word of God was only written for men, and not women to have a good and godly relationship with Jesus Christ.

    And precisely “who” leads women into believing they are lower laity Christians? Hmmmm.

    Appreciate the truths you present here, and your work in researching serious topics. You are most certainly a blessing here, Daisy! Please keep ministering!

    Liked by 1 person

  112. This is another article I just found today – very long but worth the read.

    That D guy who was posting here above all should read the entire thing.

    _All Career Advice for Women is A Form of Gaslighting_

    Just one brief snippet:

    Although there’s lots of talk about equality in the workplace today, eradicating sexism from our culture is no easy task.

    For one thing, it starts early in our families.

    Disparate treatment of boys and girls begins at home, where girls do more chores yet allowances for male children are greater than for females.

    The pattern continues in schools around the world, where children are socialized differently, with boys encouraged to express ideas more and girls praised for their neatness and niceness.

    …The Duke University researchers argue that their findings on DIY equality should worry anyone who believes we need structural and societal change to improve the workplace.

    “[T]he more we talk about women leaning in, the more likely people are to hold women responsible, both for causing inequality, and for fixing it,” they write.”

    Like

  113. Daisy,

    I’m the one that did the chores growing up, my mom needed me to cover her back and could barely pay me 50 cents a week.

    You have made a good argument for women who shouldn’t be treated unfairly in the workplace and even in the home, whether or not she has the option of wanting to work out of the home or not.

    My concern is for the many women that have to work for economic reasons, but would rather not. (60% w/kids would rather not, as they come home and have to take care of the domestic stuff and take care of the kids, all of which equate to a full time job by itself.

    Many who want to work and raise kids are finding ways and jobs that will give them a little more flexibility, so they don’t get burned out and still be able to spend a little more time with their kids.

    I have also seen an increasing amount of women who have salaries high enough that their husbands are the ones staying home with the kids and taking care of the domestic stuff.

    My daughter is one of them. She gets her college degree in communications, has a good job with a National Insurance Conglomerate and opts out after she gets married and decides to quit so she can raise her 3 kids, while her husband works, living paycheck to paycheck. They could chase the dollar and make more money, but they choose not to.

    As she states, “no day-care is going to mentally nurture or love my kids more than me”

    Kids pay a high price for whatever decision their parents make, whether their parents make good or bad decisions.

    Sure, for every women that thinks like her, another one may look at life or not share her views. My daughter is a minimalist, whom was inspired by the ideology of Mother Teresa but also a liberal professor teaching women’s studies class taught who happened to be a woman, at a liberal Cal-State University.
    Daisy,

    I’m the one that did the chores growing up, my mom needed me to cover her back and could barely pay me 50 cents a week.

    You have made a good argument for women who shouldn’t be treated unfairly in the workplace and even in the home, whether or not she has the option of wanting to work out of the home or not.

    My concern is for the many women that have to work for economic reasons, but would rather not. (60% w/kids would rather not, as they come home and have to take care of the domestic stuff and take care of the kids, all of which equate to a full time job by itself.

    Many who want to work and raise kids are finding ways and jobs that will give them a little more flexibility, so they don’t get burned out and still be able to spend a little more time with their kids.

    I have also seen an increasing amount of women who have salaries high enough that their husbands are the ones staying home with the kids and taking care of the domestic stuff.

    There are an increasingly higher amount of millennials that are putting a lot more time and energy into their kids.

    My daughter is one of them. She gets her college degree in communications, has a good job with a National Insurance Conglomerate and opts out after she gets married and decides to quit so she can raise her 3 kids, while her husband works, living paycheck to paycheck. They could chase the dollar and make more money, but they choose not to.

    As she states, “no day-care is going to mentally nurture or love my kids more than me”

    Kids pay a high price for whatever decision their parents make, whether their parents make good or bad decisions.

    I have conceded several times, that what I have shared in my experience or witnessed with my eyes isn’t isolated or unusual and rarely talked about in all media outlets, which is why I make mention of it. I also concede that what you have experienced and witnessed isn’t isolated or unusual either,

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  114. D – you mentioned earlier on so many working 5 or 6 days a week for 50 weeks of the year. Lea mentioned not taking more than a week’s leave at once for years.

    I had an American colleague who got married in Europe, and her father didn’t dare attend because it would have meant taking 2 weeks’ leave at once, and he would probably have returned to find himself fired for this.

    Isn’t it possible to elect a govt that will change this, and bring such industrial relations out of the 19th century? I used to get 6 weeks and 2 days annual leave, plus bank holidays. This was perhaps a little unusually generous, 5 weeks’ holiday is the more norm, and EU-wide 4 weeks the minimum. Your employer cannot refuse you leave once you have worked 4 months of the holiday year without taking any, and cannot refuse you at least 2 weeks at once if you choose this.

    My employer, highly successful, used to ask employees to take leave in order to recuperate from the stresses or work. Makes for a more productive workforce as well.

    A former colleague of mine has just returned after taking the second period of parental leave for child number 2 – a whole year off, and now for the second time! Your pay is considerably reduced with the state footing much of the bill; I don’t think less well paid employees could always afford this. This right can be split between husband and wife, 6 months each if they prefer, or a whole year for the wife is she is in full-time employment. That’s equality for you!

    There is also a right to return to work after maternity of up to 3 years unpaid leave. One colleague of mine was off for 9 years this way!

    There is always the danger the costs will make companies less competitive, but with the huge salaries top management awards itself, it really ought to be able to ‘manage’ this.

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  115. KAS, Americans do get far less leave than others. I am actually quite well set up for leave in that I have plenty, but no, I’ve never taken more than a week/week and change. Maybe I should at some point. I have had coworkers who took two in a row, or some might take two for a special occasion like a honeymoon, but it’s not common. Taking a 6 week vacation is far from usual here.

    Maternity leave is also less generous. 12 weeks is about as long as anyone would take and companies are not required to pay for it. I agree there are some things we could work on but it’s not happening any time soon as far as I can see.

    I wasn’t really making a point about leave policies, it was about the options D was referring to, of one spouse staying home on a permanent or semi-permanent basis, are only options for people without two people in the household – which is not me, or some others on here. That was getting pretty ignored…

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  116. Lea,

    The options I was referring were directly targeting the ones that embrace a certain career that gives a husband and a wife with kids more flexibility to not be as run down, which does occur in many, many households where both parents are working full-time, 50 weeks out of the year, sometimes with different shifts at work, while raising kids and trying to take care of the domestic responsibilities.

    I’m not saying that is for everybody, which is evident by those like yourself that chooses to take a different path. If the path you have taken works for you, more power to you. Also what works for you isn’t always going to work for you.

    Make no mistake, there are many spouses with kids and working fulltime jobs, that if they had their choice would prefer one parent stay at home. Most of them can’t because of economic reasons.

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  117. that gives a husband and a wife with kids

    D, What I am saying, and you are ignoring, is that there are MANY people who don’t fit in this little group that you are myopically focused on. Not even necessarily because they didn’t ‘choose’ it, but because that’s just not how life worked. They didn’t get married, they didn’t have kids. Maybe they will some day, maybe not. Maybe they did and their spouse left. Maybe they died. Life happens not according to plan.

    So when you expect sympathy from people for gasp having to do housework after a full day on the job without a whole person who gets to stay home and do it during the day, and those people you are demanding sympathy from ALSO work a full day and do their own housework, you are going to get a bit of pushback. You ignored all of it, though, so I don’t expect you to change anything because I have explained it again.

    It would not be so bad if you didn’t snark at people with incorrect information because you can’t be bothered to read what they write.

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  118. KAS,

    Labor circumstances vary throughout the globe. There aren’t too many private sector jobs that allow 6 weeks off. Though paternity leave is an instance where many employers are allowing it.

    Those kinds of benefits are expensive, especially to small businesses. It requires them to hire additional employees that they have to provide full benefits

    Many manufacturing jobs in America are having to produce a lot more, with less employees, so many of them are being pushed to the absolute limits, especially if someone calls in sick.

    One Northern California company I worked for over 12 years ago, hired 450 people in one plant. It was designed to work efficient at a labor intense pace with 450 people and that is all they hired. It wasn’t uncommon for 5 to 15 employees calling in sick. So then that left the ones having to pick up the slack. The only way you know the boundaries of how hard an employee could work, without injury, is until they are injured. Extra employees means training more and spending more on benefits.

    Typically, the lowest manufacturing wage, is still higher that most nations. Even though low end wages are higher than other nations, it isn’t enough to sustain a living in most parts of America.

    I’ve seen a lot of fatigue on the faces of husbands and wives working full time jobs and slowly working themselves into an early grave.

    My hunch by some of the push back I’m getting when discussing user friendly careers, is they are so insulated by economic realities of the working poor or haven’t witnessed or experienced what it’s like when both spouses are working full time in a labor intense environment and then taking care of their home and kids, for 50 weeks out of the year.

    Probably because they have good jobs, whether or not they have to work.

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  119. Lea,

    I’m saying the same as you, as you are ignoring that there are MANY people who don’t fit in this little group that you are myopically focused on.

    More than 50% of duel wage earners with kids, if they had a choice would prefer to have one parent stay at home, but financially can’t.

    Maybe you are insulated from that reality and I get it. Labor intense jobs have many definitions, some might think the mental strain is intense, which it is. Some might say the physical side is intense, which it is. Try doing both and if both spouses are doing it then something is going to break.

    Those are the realities for Many, not some little group.

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  120. Maybe you are insulated from that reality and I get it.

    You are breathtakingly condescending here, D. You know nothing of what I’m talking about. YOU are insulated from the reality of being a household with one income, with no choice about who may or may not stay home, or sharing burdens or any other such thing.

    But you keep talking about the one thing you care about related to women’s roles, which is what affects you personally and makes your life harder.

    As an actual woman, I will continue to point out a few things you may have missed. Thanks much.

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  121. Lea,

    I think both of us are being condescending. You just aren’t seeing the hardships of the working poor and the labor intense circumstances.

    Then you go off and suggest that my views that “Many” of those are working in tough conditions like I’m describing as some little group it very condescending toward me.

    What gets me, is we aren’t talking about the areas where we agree, which are many. But instead we are simply using condescending language in a way that we are needling one another.

    For me to suggest that you are insulated from the realities that over 50% of duel wage earners w/kids either want more flexibility in their work schedules or one parent to stay at home, shouldn’t be condescending to you. There are many that insulate themselves, from those realities or other realities, because they aren’t experiencing it themselves or they simply are too busy worrying about their own circumstances instead of others.

    I’m guessing, most people are insulated from the realities outside their own circle. I would say there are Many that are insulated from the working realities of the poor and the hardship on their kids.

    Again what works well for you, is what’s important. There are millions (not a little group) that can’t say that.

    If this is a strictly Social Justice thread and wants to ignore the realities of the working poor, let me know, because sometimes economics don’t always mix with those consumed with Social Justice. We already have laws in the books to prosecute against those that break laws, but then in a nation where we have cities that give sanctuary or tip off criminals to flee before ICE shows up, it seems as if now laws are going to be enforced.

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  122. Lea said

    So when you expect sympathy from people for gasp having to do housework after a full day on the job without a whole person who gets to stay home and do it during the day, and those people you are demanding sympathy from ALSO work a full day and do their own housework, you are going to get a bit of pushback.

    You ignored all of it, though, so I don’t expect you to change anything because I have explained it again.

    Most women I know work full time jobs while their husband does not have a job, and the husband sits around all day in his underwear drinking beer and watching NFL.

    So the wife gets home after working at the job all day AND she gets stuck with washing the dirty dishes, the dirty laundry and doing 99.9% other housework.

    But it is true that single adults have no choice but to do their own housework all alone, on top of having a full time job, if they also work and have no choice because they have bills to pay.

    And – I’m not blaming you for this – but look how far off course this has become. The original topic was a podcast by guys talking about how complementarians are wrong about women’s roles in churches and/or in marriages.

    D has managed to veer it far off course.

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  123. Quote

    If this is a strictly Social Justice thread and wants to ignore the realities of the working poor, let me know, because sometimes economics don’t always mix with those consumed with Social Justice.

    We already have laws in the books to prosecute against those that break laws, but then in a nation where we have cities that give sanctuary or tip off criminals to flee before ICE shows up, it seems as if now laws are going to be enforced.

    WTF? What does Social Justice, sanctuary cities, or ICE have to do with anything?

    The original thread topic is,

    “Almost Heretical: Women in the Church and Gender Roles
    Almost Heretical, Women in the Church, Gender Roles in the Church”

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  124. Daisy,

    There have been comments on this thread that insinuates that I think a woman’s place is in the home, which isn’t so. I’m simply saying many, many men and women are actually working too hard. Which can be a catalyst for abuse, especially if the man doesn’t do his part.

    If you have a job where you don’t have to work yourself into the ground and pays you enough to support yourself then more power to you, But there many, many men and women that don’t have that luxury.

    The conversation expanded, in fact if I had an hour or two or five to go through every comment you wrote then isolate every single opinion you have made, in this post alone, I would find you going off topic as well,

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  125. Daisy,

    Swearing trivializes the dialogue, my mom told me when we use fowl innuendos, it shows a lack of class.

    The WTF comment means we are done. for sure,

    I won’t respond to you in this post or any other, whether we agree or not. It is impossible to have an actual discussion about realities of abuse and also what is fair and unfair in the work place.

    Good Luck, I hope you will discover happiness in your life.

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  126. Most women I know work full time jobs while their husband does not have a job, and the husband sits around all day in his underwear drinking beer and watching NFL.

    Source ….. 🙂

    Like

  127. Good Luck, I hope you will discover happiness in your life. ~ D

    I was thinking about your comment here D. For me, it might be like swearing is for you.

    It’s difficult to not take the words other use to communicate so personally I find. It’s also difficult to know specifically the implications of certain words for some people.

    I find myself remembering back when in therapy I found myself swearing. All of a sudden I swore. It was a big leap in my healing. Why? Because the odd time my mother hit her head on an open cupboard door she might say sh** out loud and I’d see dad look at her with contempt . . . like he was a bowl of cherries and she was well, sh**. That made a huge impact on me as a developing child. Then my years in fundamentalist, literalist, conservative, evangelical, born-again times/years in The One True Church my hypersensitivity to fearing swear words was off the charts. I even was scacred to death of a swear word. I kept seeing dad’s face judging my mom and consequently I lived trapped between two worlds of dad’s judgement and then by the nature of my upbringing, my judgement. We all have our triggers. Our stories.

    As I went through years of counselling (Canadian spelling) I learned that the swear word wouldn’t hurt me. For you it hurts. The thing is, I had to learn that, we each give voice to the dialogue in different ways. For me, your comment I quoted above hurts. It’s so like the comments abusers gave me throughout my life. In fact, when I let myself dwell there when I first read it, for me I read, Good Luck, hope you enjoy burning in hell. I was triggered. Been a long time since I had that reaction. Even now I find my heart-rate up.

    Another way I read your comment is: Good Luck, I hope you will discover happiness in your life . . . because you sure appear to be a very unhappy person.

    In other words, your comment though perhaps meant in good faith looks condescending.

    So who am I to speak up at all here. Just a person who reads a bit on and off here. I probably shouldn’t actually considering my PTSD-past but part of my healing is to engage slowly over time and adjust to various ways of communicating even with those I may/and do disagree with.

    Swearing trivializes the dialogue, my mom told me when we use fowl innuendos, it shows a lack of class. ~ D

    Does it? Who gets to decide if this is the case? I can tell you that the times I heard mom swear it had nothing to do with her lacking class. I use to look at her and wonder why she doesn’t simply tell him that if he doesn’t want her to swear when the point dents her head, then shut the **** cupboard door. She never did. I wish she had.

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  128. Most women I know work full time jobs while their husband does not have a job, and the husband sits around all day in his underwear drinking beer and watching NFL.

    Goodness, that has thankfully not been common in my acquaintance! The women with spouses who are home all day who I have known generally had husbands who retired before they did. And one who is a stay at home dad.

    I have known men who are pretty lazy about housework (and other things) and others who are incredibly industrious. I find the industrious types are pretty nice to have around.

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  129. “In the Land of Two Different Worlds in the Gender Wars”

    One day it was decided by the church board that the building was in need of shingling. The men donned on their best work clothes and the women made their best dish to serve. The men worked diligently in the cool autumn breeze while the women prepared the meals in the kitchen to serve the men. When the women came out to watch the men working, they bragged up the men as to what hard workers they were and this made the men feel so manly and virile. And the men, when they came in for the meal, bragged up the meal to the women, inciting what wonderful cooks they were, and this made the women feel so like jesus in that they were serving the men. And the husband came home and told his wife, there are definite gender roles in the c’hurch because not one woman was up on that roof helping with the shingling. They were in the kitchen getting the meal ready and having it pretty easy! So the c’hurch clearly has gender roles!

    One day it was decided by the husband, that their home needed shingling from the damage that was done over the years due to hailstorms and the natural weathering process. He diligently sought out prices in on shingles, desiring to purchase the best product out there for the investment. He decided that the family was going to the shingling themselves, to save money and get the job done the right way, which required more time and energy. So the husband, and the “wife”, the sons and the daughters were all required to work together to get the job done efficiently, before the rains. They (including the women folk) worked hard in the hot sun of the summer, lifting shingles from the loader tractor into the roof and lining them up, so the husband could nail gun them in straight rows, one after the other. The wife made hotdishes the night before, so meals were ready when it was time to take a break. She/the daughters still were on their feet serving the men, even though they were working just as hard as the men folk on the roof. It would have been so nice to give those tired feet/bodies a break, but still they were required to still serve the men, clean up quick, then get back on that roof.

    Now that same husband (the one that cleverly tried to drive home the point of gender issues, and failed) never brought up the “gender role issue,” nor did he ever consider it his responsibility to get off his butt and help serve the family. Oh no! On the farm, when there is a job to do, gender is never considered, only the job at hand and getting it done efficiently. The hammers, the nails, the tractors, the trucks, the animals whose bellies need to be fed, do NOT care about gender roles. It is a fact of this world!

    In the religious c’hurch organization however, gender roles are emphasized to the point of blatant idolatry and the religious folks love it so. I personally see the double standards of the life lived in the homes verses the gender role show lived at church, to be very unstable and misleading/deceptive….as in a double minded man is unstable in all of his ways……not my words, but Christ’s.

    By the way, the above short story is a true one. And this individual is not complaining about the work, nor the task at hand as I believe in doing as much of the work possible, ourselves, to save on resources for our ag business. My point is strictly the “gender issue debate within the institutional church that stinks to low heaven.”

    Liked by 1 person

  130. So who am I to speak up at all here.

    I found your comment on point, Zoe. I’m glad you commented.

    This is pretty OT, but I think a lot of people raised in an overly conservative/religious home have a hard time swearing and learning to swear is a bit therapeutic. There is a difference between saying a ‘swear word’ and swearing at someone or calling them out. You can be every bit as mean or meaner while using ‘clean’ words.

    Liked by 1 person

  131. Thank you Lea.

    When it comes to “gender roles” inside and outside the church, I find swearing is an issue. More acceptable from men than women. That was also in my mind. I recall when a former church was getting a whole new church built I was stunned one day while preparing for club that night to walking into a hallway listening to the Christian men/carpenters of God letting it fly so-to-speak. Talk about shock. But of course, the shock in the place was adding up so I should not have been surprised. Men could have affairs. Women were Eve’s. Men could swear. Women who swore were indecent. Men could abuse. Women couldn’t complain about it. And so it goes.

    I see how it can be seen as off topic. It’s just that as I consider the overall picture, I think of how a man is easily forgiven if he swears. His church position would not be lost, generally speaking. A woman, now that I think is a different story.

    So true about ‘clean’ words. In addition, ‘no words.’ Just a look can kill. 😦

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  132. When it comes to “gender roles” inside and outside the church, I find swearing is an issue. More acceptable from men than women.

    This is definitely true! I meant my comment was a wee bit OT, not to call you out. My mother would gripe at me if I said something was ‘stupid’ or even the mildest things, and it wasn’t gender based for her. I sort of had to unlearn all of that lol.

    But I had to unlearn other gender role stuff, though I don’t think we were as deeply steeped in it as some people get so it was probably easier. But the messages from culture are relentless, so it’s not just family and church.

    It’s just that as I consider the overall picture, I think of how a man is easily forgiven if he swears. His church position would not be lost, generally speaking. A woman, now that I think is a different story.

    A woman is held more responsible for all these things, while being considered less responsible for the purposes of leadership and family. And you’re right it’s more than language – it’s abuse, rape, adultery: in these women are often considered responsible for the things men do. Crazy stuff.

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  133. LOL! I just got thinking, I wonder just how many rabbit trails we all end up on from the original posts. I can’t even remember the original. Might have to go back and read. Whether off-topic or not I find (when I get the time to read the bits I do) that. Anyway, I didn’t think you were calling me out. 🙂

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  134. Katy – We are taught that we are not to speak in the assembly, we are to wear modest clothing so as to not cause one of our brothers(?) to sin, we are brainwashed into believing that our gender is far more emotional … we are also taught to believe that our “anger” is not a righteous anger as opposed to the righteous anger of men(I am calling you out here KAS), we are taught that women are more easily deceived due to the fact that Eve ate of the fruit first, and we are taught that women are to blame for all of civilizations sins; past, present and future….for after all, Adam did blame Eve for his own decision to partake of the communal fruit/sin.

    You have shown such kindness it seemed a shame to me when you called me out in the middle of this paragraph!

    Let me comment without going down the usual rabbit warren:

    I have never been in a church where women were silenced. I’ve known a great deal of female participation in ministry.

    Modest clothing means ‘without ostentatious display of wealth’ rather than hemlines, although the latter is a common misunderstanding.

    Females more emotional – as a generalisation true, but that is not pejorative. Evil and manipulative men can and do use this. And note the comparative! I can think of only one person I have heard only one person teach who went into male/female differences in any detail.

    Anger: I for one only distinguish between righteous and unrighteous anger, it has nothing to do with gender, except perhaps men are more prone to it. I agreed with you once before when it came up, which is why it struck me here that you needed to call me out on it.

    Women more easily deceived – nuanced discussion of Paul needed here. I’ve never heard a sermon where this has been said in so many words. I don’t think this is true when put so crassly.

    Women to blame for sin – I’ve only ever heard the opposite. It was Adam who carried the can, not Eve. Adam’s blame shifting has been followed – by both genders – ever since. Adam blamed Eve, but indirectly he was blaming God (‘if you hadn’t given me that woman …’).

    So everybody comes at this with different backgrounds, experience and history. I have never attended a church that you could describe as fundamentalist and espousing patriarchy as you would understand it.

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  135. KAS said <blockquote(daisy said).Most women I know work full time jobs while their husband does not have a job, and the husband sits around all day in his underwear drinking beer and watching NFL.

    (KAS replied),
    Source ….. 🙂 I don’t understand your remark.

    Are you suggesting I am lying?

    I said “most women I know.”

    Why would I lie about the relationships and home lives of most women I know? I have no reason to lie about it.

    Most women I know – my big sister and my aunts – work full time jobs AND do the house work, while their husbands sit around all day in their underwear watching TV or are out drinking beer at the local bars.

    When I was engaged to my fiance, not only did we both have jobs, but when I’d go to visit him at his home, I hate to sit in his filth he created, so I would go to his home and mop the kitchen floor, scrub the shower and toilet, etc.

    I did that on a regular basis for the several years we were a couple.
    My ex fiance was a slob.

    My ex fiance also bilked me out of thousands of dollars and left me broke, even though his job paid way more than mine.

    My parents are one of the few “traditional married” couples I know where the husband worked full time, the wife stayed at home – she did housework, but my father paid all the bills.

    My dad is financially responsible, which is more than I can say for 99% of the men my female family have dated or been married to.

    Studies today also say that in American married couples, where both the man and woman hold outside jobs, the woman still does the majority of the house-work.

    You can go google for such studies and find dozens of them.

    2017 article:
    _Women Still Do More Chores at Home Than Men Do, Study Finds_
    “After all this time, we still haven’t achieved parity in the home.”

    This is from a UK based paper, so I guess this phenomenon holds true in UK too:
    _Dirty secret: why is there still a housework gender gap?_

    Research shows that British women do 60% more housework. Is there any hope for balance when it comes to emptying the bins?

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  136. D said,

    Swearing trivializes the dialogue, my mom told me when we use fowl innuendos, it shows a lack of class.

    The WTF comment means we are done. for sure,

    What the Fudge” deeply offends you?

    You gotta get over your panty waist, pearl-clutching, being overly sensitive to vulgar language issue. It’s annoying.

    It will hamper you, also, from reaching Non-Christians who are known to drop the occasional F-bomb in dialog, even in casual conversation.

    You and your mom can take your sanctimonious, prissy attitude about how other people talk, and saying I am low class, and stick it where the sun don’t shine.

    Up thread, you oh- so- politely (that is, using polite language) accused me of things that I never said, and you never took it back or apologized
    (See _This Post_ to see what I am talking about).

    You and the other guy who post here, KAS, claim to recoil at obscene language, yet both of you are very rude and/or condescending in your own ways.

    Being rude and insulting can be done without the use of swear words. You and KAS both engage in that behavior.

    You think being rude is fine, just so long as it’s not overt or there is no use of obscene language – I disagree.

    You two should really be banned or put on slow mod. I swear the both of you are trolling.

    Like

  137. “What the Fudge” deeply offends you?

    Have you ever seen The Good Place? They turn the f word to ‘fork’ as in What the Fork? Cracks me up.

    Like

  138. Zoe said

    I find myself remembering back when in therapy I found myself swearing. All of a sudden I swore. It was a big leap in my healing.

    Why? Because the odd time my mother hit her head on an open cupboard door she might say sh** out loud and I’d see dad look at her with contempt . . . like he was a bowl of cherries and she was well, sh**. That made a huge impact on me as a developing child.

    Then my years in fundamentalist, literalist, conservative, evangelical, born-again times/years in The One True Church my hypersensitivity to fearing swear words was off the charts.

    I even was scared to death of a swear word. I kept seeing dad’s face judging my mom and consequently I lived trapped between two worlds of dad’s judgement and then by the nature of my upbringing, my judgement. We all have our triggers. Our stories.

    I grew up in a similar way.

    I actually didn’t start cussing at all until the last 3 or so years.

    My sister is big on vulgarities – she likes to say “F-ck” quite a bit, in all its permutations, too – “Motherf_cker” “F-ck off,” “F-ck you,” etc.

    Part of me would love to have my sister post here to this blog.
    I don’t know how much cussing JA allows, but if she’s okay with it at all, I promise you that every post on this blog would have 500 “F” words in it if my sister showed up.

    I am nothing compared to my sister in this regard.

    My mom had a very clean mouth and didn’t like cuss language, but if she bumped her foot on the corner of a piece of furniture, she might be known to occasionally yelp “Oh sh-t” automatically.
    (One difference with my family from yours, though, is my Dad did not get upset with my Mom on those occasions.)

    The constant Tone Policing and “tut tutting” over bad words – we have D and KAS, who are presumably adults(?) – lecturing other adults about their tone and language quite often. It’s very annoying.

    (Not to mention hypocritical, because they manage to insult many of us here sans obscene language.)

    Zoe said,

    As I went through years of counselling (Canadian spelling) I learned that the swear word wouldn’t hurt me. For you it hurts.

    The thing is, I had to learn that, we each give voice to the dialogue in different ways. For me, your comment I quoted above hurts.

    It’s so like the comments abusers gave me throughout my life. In fact, when I let myself dwell there when I first read it, for me I read, Good Luck, hope you enjoy burning in hell. I was triggered.

    Been a long time since I had that reaction. Even now I find my heart-rate up.

    I used to moderate a large heavily- visited Christian forum years ago.

    This is back when I had no self esteem and was super genteel when I posted because I was still stuck in Complementarianism (Codependency) and gosh golly, nice, sweet Christian ladies just do not use swear words, gosh durn it!

    (KAS and D would’ve approved of my language and tone back then).

    Regardless, the Christian people on that forum (mostly men) would send me the most hate-filled private messages and e-mails all because I would ask them to abide by the forum rules –
    and their rude replies contained no cuss words in them but – they would insult me up and down never- the- less, suggesting they hoped I burn in Hell, etc, but they’d sign off with the super sweet “God bless!” phrases, or something of that nature.

    A lot of Christians do this – they will insult you, but without using swear language, and cherry on top, they will sign off with some kind of nicey-sounding “Blessings to you in the name of the Lord” type signature.
    And they don’t see anything wrong with this.

    Like

  139. Zoe said

    Does it? Who gets to decide if this is the case? I can tell you that the times I heard mom swear it had nothing to do with her lacking class.
    I use to look at her and wonder why she doesn’t simply tell him that if he doesn’t want her to swear when the point dents her head, then shut the **** cupboard door. She never did. I wish she had.

    I did not even spell out the words in WTF in my post to D (I assume that is what he was referring to).

    Maybe the F stands for Fleece, Fire, Fumble. If he wants to translate it in his mind to being “F_ck” I guess that’s his business.

    If there is a super, squeaky clean G-rated Spiritual Abuse Recovering Blog out there, I think D would feel more comfortable posting to it.

    KAS belongs more in a debate forum, not on a blog like this, but he likes to show up to hurt the already-hurting, to needle people.

    Like

  140. Lea said

    Have you ever seen The Good Place? They turn the f word to ‘fork’ as in What the Fork? Cracks me up.

    I’m sorry I’m not familiar – is that a TV show?

    On the Sci-Fi television show B.S.G. (Battlestar Galactica) (and I don’t remember if this originated on the original late 1970s version of the show, or on the circa – 2005 rebooted version of B.S.G.), the characters had their outer-space version of our “F_ck” word:
    Their cuss word was “FRACK” (or maybe spelled “”FRAK,” I’m not sure).

    I always thought that was funny.

    You’d have characters telling each other things on that show such as, “Go Frack off,” or “Frack you,” or “What the Frack is going on here?”

    Like

  141. is that a TV show

    Yes. They try to say curse words in ‘the good place’ and they are automatically changed to nonoffensive stuff like fork and bench.

    I never watched BSG but I have heard people use ‘frack’.

    Liked by 1 person

  142. Lea said

    Goodness, that has thankfully not been common in my acquaintance! The women with spouses who are home all day who I have known generally had husbands who retired before they did. And one who is a stay at home dad.

    I brought all that up because I don’t know if in all this D has ever acknowledged that married women still get stuck doing most house-work, even if both the husband and wife in a marriage work outside the home.

    I know a small number of traditional married couples that are like Ward and June Cleaver, where Ward works a 9 to 5, while June stays at home cleaning dishes (including my parents – they fit this scenario),
    but many more of my female friends and family not only work a 9 to 5, but their live-in boyfriend or husband is unemployed and will not do house-work or not much.

    (This is one reason I detest the MRA and Incel dopes on line who run about saying all to most women are gold-diggers. No, they’re not.
    In my experience, most men have been the gold-diggers while the women pay the bills AND clean the home).

    My ex fiance took financial advantage of me, and I usually cleaned the various apartments or homes he rented. My ex did not pay my bills or do the cleaning.

    I don’t know if “D” is stuck in some kind of world where he thinks not only should men and women hold 9 to 5 jobs, but also the woman in the relationship should be doing most to all the housework and child-care
    (because you know, women are just supposedly naturally better at doing things like cleaning toilets than men are, and we’re all just dying to work even at home, after getting off work).

    The reality is a lot of working married women do the lion’s share of the housework even in 2018, I posted link to at least two studies about that above.

    Like

  143. Katy said,

    In the religious c’hurch organization however, gender roles are emphasized to the point of blatant idolatry and the religious folks love it so.

    About any time I’ve been church shopping, and walk in to a church brand new, the regulars almost always suggest I either pull duty baking in and / or cleaning in the church kitchenette, or, they suggest I babysit in the church’s day care center area.

    I don’t really want to clean the kitchen, no thanks, and I’m not particularly maternal with kids, nor am I comfortable around kids.

    But they suggest those things all because I’m not a dude.

    Like

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