83 comments on “Pastor Gabriel Hughes and His Rude Tweet

  1. He was such a joy on twitter I had to block him. His elders that agreed with his outrageous attitude sent an email to a concerned woman in his congregation stating this. Why would any unbeliever be drawn to the “church” today?!

    Liked by 3 people

  2. Nice gaslighting attempt by this guy. Who is he anyway?

    The only reason this guy is a pastor is because there’s a bunch of women willing to go to his church. Why can’t he give them some credit?


  3. Oh, right…I spent four years in a ministry program in college because I didn’t really “want” to be a pastor. I minored in Bible and spent three summers in ministry internships (that I had to pay for and only received college credit for one experience) because I really didn’t “want” to be a pastor. During that time I volunteered at a local church’s youth program because I didn’t “want” to have ministry experience.

    The only reason why I didn’t become a pastor was because during my college time I learned quickly that while the college was behind women being pastors, the churches were not behind women being pastors. Fortunately, after that I found a focus that became more meaningful and fulfilling to me.

    Liked by 3 people

  4. Thanks for the good laugh!!! And none of us will even mention your secret on line life. Hey, with that kind of deception gifting, have consider the pastorate?

    Liked by 2 people

  5. I know a couple of women who are pastors, neither is what I would call feminist. I was raised in independent,fundamentalist baptist land where they were 1000% against women doing much of anything within the church. I believe that body of thought is directly correlated to the amazing shrink down of the IFB churches. In 1985 there was around 50,000 ifb churches and now they are down to less than 10,000 and squealing about like a bunch of stuck up pigs.

    You don’t believe in woman pastors ? Fine don’t go to a church with one. The world is ok with that. Just don’t make it your life mission to obstruct their ministry.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. I suspect you’d get blocked quickly. The reason I say that is I do not personally attack. He blocked me because he didn’t agree with me. Can you imagine removing everyone from your world that you didn’t agree with? lol

    Liked by 3 people

  7. A lot of these patriarchal types are rude as can be! Can you imagine if your pastor talked like that?

    Aside from that, even if you don’t care anything about being a pastor the lack of respect for women rolls downhill in many of these places way beyond pastor…many restrict women from all other leadership as well, to the point where they become little all male groupthinky jerks.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. The only reason why I didn’t become a pastor was because during my college time I learned quickly that while the college was behind women being pastors, the churches were not behind women being pastors.

    How sad.

    Another thing not factored in is how many little girls grew up know that was off limits, like NBA basketball player would have been off limits! Some, like a friend of mine from church, realized later in life that she could become a pastor. But not a pastor and a southern baptist. They act like these barriers to entry mean nothing.


  9. I was visiting with a missionary friend recently who is now retired. I was remeniscing about playing lincoln logs with her before she left for the the field. I was 4-almost 50 years ago. What she remembers was that I was serving communion using the lincoln logs. I used to “preach” into the metal contraption Mom hung the ironing on. I learned soon enough that pastoring was off limits due to my gender.


  10. Lea: “Can you imagine if your pastor talked like that?”

    In my husband’s church (my former church), the pastor does talk like that. I agreed with the pastor that I should probably worship somewhere else; I was a former leader and was on a pastoral track. That church seems to be having problems with their pastor, now.


  11. Instead of addressing the actual argument, he just lumps all the people who have a different opinion under one amorphous label, and then pretends he’s the expert on what motivates every single one of them. He’s lacking any credibility there, I’m afraid.


  12. Strawman argument. Or in this case, a feminist strawoman 😉

    I wouldn’t want to be a pastor, because that is not my gift (my gifts are more in the area of mercy and compassion), but I would love to go to a church that had a woman as the pastor or assistant pastor. I would definitely feel safer and more comfortable going to a woman pastor with theological questions and personal burdens and prayer requests.

    Some would say that is what the pastor’s wife is for. But not all pastors’ wives are trained, qualified, or gifted in these areas, nor should they be expected to be. Just because a woman happens marry a pastor doesn’t mean she is or should be capable of ministering to the women in the church. And even if the pastor’s wife is qualified for this sort of work, she is not in a very visible position; women may not feel comfortable talking to her because unlike the pastor, they are not used to hearing her preach, so they don’t know what she is like or whether or not she is likely to give good advice.

    On the other hand, if a woman were preaching and teaching in the church, she would be in a visible position where other women could get to know her — know what her personality and theological views are — so it would be easy for other women to talk to her.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Perhaps he IS God. No one else could say with such authority what each and every last feminist wants.

    It’s actually somewhat contradictory. I wouldn’t be surprised if a significant attraction of being a pastor is being in a position where you tell others what to do and very few hold any authority over you, especially if you’ve been in the position long enough to encourage ‘friends’ to join the board and ‘encourage’ people who would hold you accountable to leave.


  14. @AvidReader:

    Nice gaslighting attempt by this guy. Who is he anyway?

    GAWD’s Speshul Anointed, who else?

    “The Elders talk to Pastor
    and Pastor talks only to God”

    It’s actually somewhat contradictory. I wouldn’t be surprised if a significant attraction of being a pastor is being in a position where you tell others what to do and very few hold any authority over you, especially if…

    …you’re Head Pastor(TM) of a completely-independent “fellowship” like Westboro Baptist or Founding Pastor(TM) of a Mega/Giga with your face ten meters tall on all your Franchise Campus(TM) Telescreens.


  15. What ‘Pastor’ Gäbe is saying is that no feminist woman actually wants to be a religious salaried professional (his definition of a capital P professional Pastor).

    Pastor Gabe has no clue.

    God gifts men and women to love, guide and protect (shepherd) HIS sheep.

    My thoughts on Gabe.

    It’s possible he isn’t a shepherd gifted by God to love and protect his people.

    It’s highly likely he is a salaried religious professional who likes the title of ‘Pastor’ which makes him feel spiritually superior to those lesser believers who ar distinct from clergy men such as himself.

    If I, as a woman spend my life serving and loving and caring for God’s sheep then I AM functioning as a shepherd.

    One does not BECOME a shepherd (your word for this is Pastor). One simply IS or IS NOT one due to their behaviour and life example.

    Gabe doesn’t get it.

    He’s religious.


  16. He is gifted/can read our minds, He’s !00% spot on with what I think about it except for what must have been a typo/autocorrect issue. Rather than “no one, including,” he must have meant “no one playing.”


  17. How many women pastors are there that aren’t feminists and don’t believe in equal rights for women and are pro-discrimination based on sex? Hughes seems to think it’s pretty common.


  18. I went and read the post about “bad examples of women pastors.” That and the tweet together tell me the following:
    1. Gabe is assuming he knows what’s in the heart and is judging on that basis; a sin he is specifically forbidden to commit.
    2. Gabe is more concerned about WHO is doing the teaching rather than WHAT is being taught. This is getting the whole thing backward.
    3. Gabe is a poor exegete. I only bothered to read through his explanation of the stories of Deborah and Miriam, but in both cases he failed to deal with the texts honestly. Instead, he applied his framework instead of letting the Word speak for itself. I know Bible teachers who agree with Gabe that women should not be pastors, but who are not afraid to deal honestly with these passages: he does not. (Or, it’s possible it’s not a matter of not dealing honestly, but simple inability to do any better). For this reason above all, I’d never set foot in a church he taught at.


  19. If it is biblical for a women to pastor a church and have the title pastor, how come there are no women with the title pastor pastoring a church in the bible?


  20. Does he have a bio anywhere? I can’t seem to find one, even on the church website. Curious to know if he grew up in southwest Kansas.


  21. Dear Jimmy,

    Strictly speaking, no men have the title of pastor in the Bible, either. So are you saying that the whole concept of the professional pastor itself is unbiblical?


  22. Jimmy – Serving Kids is correct, the “title” of pastor is not in the Bible. Anywhere. However, we are told in I Corinthians 12 that the Spirit determines how gifts are bestowed. So, if the gift of teaching is bestowed upon a woman, are you denying the Spirit by not allowing her to teach for the common good?

    “Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

    “There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

    “Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.”


  23. Jimmy, you’ll find it a challenging task to find a male ‘Pastor’ of a religious club called a ‘church’ in the bible.

    The ‘church’ is a reference to the people of God in a city not a religious organisation run by salaried religious charlatans.

    Nice challenge for you: find me a male Pastor in the New Testament.


  24. Serving Kids in Japan. You say no men have the title of pastor in the Bible. So are you saying the concept of the professional pastor itself is unbiblical?


  25. Kathi. You say the “title” of pastor is not in the Bible. So are you saying it’s okay for believers to take a “title” not in the Bible?


  26. Amos, was this supposed to be some kind of practical joke? Or were you trying, on the sly, to turn this conversation to “evils” of organized religion? There’s already a dedicated thread where you can talk about that to your heart’s content — this thread is on a different topic.

    I can’t speak for Julie Anne or Kathi, but I don’t find this tactic to be very gentlemanly.


  27. Serving Kids in Japan…

    You ask…
    “…was this supposed to be some kind of practical joke?”

    Yes… 🙂

    Julie Anne mentioned her “top secret” male Twitter account.

    And I thought I’d use an alias.

    I figured you guys and gals would recognize the avatar. 🙂

    I’m sad that I offended you… Sorry…


  28. I would love to go to a church that had a woman as the pastor or assistant pastor. I would definitely feel safer and more comfortable going to a woman pastor with theological questions and personal burdens

    The wary witness, I have done just that! I think the simple knowledge that women are everywhere and respected and this isn’t even an issue gives me peace.


  29. I have not read the comment thread yet, so please bear with me here. Since Mr. Gabriel Hughes chose to use the word “feminist” in his tweet, then use the “persecution” scripture card when disagreement occurs, I still am left wondering;

    “Can anyone please give me a clear and concise definition of the word “feminist?” I am having a difficult time wrapping twine string around this one. I once heard a male leader from my former legalistic Baptist c’hurch cult say, “Our country wouldn’t be in the sorry state it is in today, if women weren’t allowed the right to vote.” Wow! What a statement coming from a church board elder man, and a perfect Baptist no less!

    So I would ask this Gabriel Hughes, whoever he is within the religious industrial complex, “What is a feminist…..what say you?” Would I be considered a feminist for giving a drunkard, begging for food and money, a Bible and sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with him in the front of a gas station, as both male and females passed by this man all the while looking at him as if he were the scum of the earth?


  30. Jimmy – Personally, I don’t have a problem with the title of pastor. My problem is when people use the argument that women cannot be pastors because of scripture. The Bible speaks of gifts bestowed upon believers regardless of gender.


  31. Good point Kathi.

    The argument that ‘Jimmy’ and I both make is that the modern day ‘Pastor’ is not the same as the word Poimen used in the NT to describe a shepherd of God’s people.

    This IS the issue/problem.

    I don’t believe women cannot ‘BE’ pastors as it’s God who enables his people to be spiritually mature enough over time to guide and oversee his people.

    I just disagree that this shepherding goes on in the Christian Industrial Complex with self ordained ‘Pastors’ who deliver eloquent sermons (consider Paul’s words on eloquent words) who command salaries to serve.

    I’ve no doubt women function as shepherds amongst God’s people. It’s GOD who gifts such people to do his work.

    I’m just sure they’re not the ones going around calling themselves Pastor Susan, Senior Bishop of the local club house.

    Amos’ point is valid.

    I’m surprised more believers can’t see it.


  32. Kathi – there are people who argue that scripture limits women from being teachers and overseers. It also limits the number of men who can be teachers.

    I happen to think 1 Tim 2 still applies today. I have at least given women pastors a try, both in listening on tape and attending churches which have women teachers in a mixed gathering despite my scruples about this being ‘out of order’. I reasonably regularly attend such a church to provide music and am on perfectly amicable terms with Mrs Pastor.

    I’m afraid my experience in this regard has done nothing but confirm that Paul’s specific instructions are applicable universally and today, although scripture must be the deciding factor in this rather than experience.


  33. KAS,

    If you want to hear a lady that was called and anointed by God to preach, listen to Corrie Ten Boom. That’s one really powerful female preacher.

    God is still raising up more Gladys Alywards and Amy Carmicahels even though there’s a lot of people trying to resist the call of God on their lives.

    It takes the whole body of Christ and a lot of resources to do the work of the ministry. Trying to attack the call of God on their lives with this silliness that throws half the NT out the window to pretend that God doesn’t want pastors is just another way that the devil tries to stop the preaching of the Gospel. The devil is the one trying to stop resources from going to the work of the ministry with all this false doctrine that keeps deceiving people.

    Why is there’s still so much resistance to one of the most precious things to God’s heart—-the preaching of the Gospel?

    Now we have a dedicated thread for this topic so if anyone wants to continue the discussion let’s move to that thread.


  34. KAS,

    This is how the Devils strategy works:
    Block #1) He gets half the body of Christ to shut down the call of God on women’s lives by saying women can’t preach. That alone silences half the spiritual gifts.

    Block #2) Then he gets the other big part of the Body of Christ to shut down resources from going to the Gospel by getting them to come up with all kinds of excuses for why we should spend our money on everything else but heaven forbid that we should contribute towards the spread of the Gospel.

    No one gets offended if you buy a new car. But people scream in anger at the very suggestion that it takes the whole body of Christ to provide resources for obeying Christ’s command of the Great Commission.

    When will the church open their eyes to obeying the commands of Christ? Why do we always have an excuse for why we should do nothing?

    Ok, Amos and Salty both got to do two off topic comments on this thread, Now that that Ive had equal time to post the rebuttal, I’m moving to the other thread.


  35. Hi Serving Kids in Japan

    You write @ JANUARY 14, 2018 @ 9:56 AM
    “Or were you trying, on the sly,
    to turn this conversation to “evils” of organized religion?
    There’s already a dedicated thread
    where you can talk about that to your heart’s content —
    this thread is on a different topic.

    Well, I never mentioned the “evils” of organized religion… 🙂

    I asked, as Jimmy, ”…how come there are no women
    with the title pastor pastoring a church in the bible?”

    So then – What is the “The Topic of This Thread?”
    If it is NOT about a “Titled” Male pastor, Pastor Gabe, saying…
    “Hardly any feminists who argue that women can be pastors
    actually want to be pastors themselves.”

    Would this thread exist, or anyone care, if it wasn’t about ”pastors?”

    “Hardly any feminists who argue that women can be ”Bakers”
    actually want to be ”Bakers” themselves.” 🙂

    It seems at least some of “This Topic” is about “pastors.”
    And “Feminists who argue women can be pastors…”
    And, Pastor Gabe, saying on his site…
    “Only a man can be a pastor.”

    That Julie Anne gave the address of @ JANUARY 13, 2018 @ 2:25 PM…

    Can you exlpain what is NOT on Topic?
    When reporting there are NO Male “Titled” pastors in the Bible?
    When reporting there are NO Fe-Male “Titled” pastors in the Bible?

    I could have missed it…
    What is the “The Topic of This Thread?”


  36. Amos,

    I’d love to have that debate with you for as long as you want on the Church Discussion page where it belongs. This thread is about the double standards in the church where the same people who say all women are unqualified to pastor will turn around and argue for an abuser to be in the pulpit. That’s the part about the Highpoint Memphis situation that really puzzles me.

    Watching the full Sunday service video with Andy and Chris Conlee, I kept wondering why they believe that all women ever born are totally unqualified from holding the office of pastor, but they spent the entire service arguing that someone who just admitted to abuse is perfectly qualified to lead the flock. Let’s talk about those kinds of double standards.

    This thread is not about whether the office of pastor itself is biblical. We have a designated thread for that which I’m inviting you to move over to.


  37. Avid, last time I was over at the Church Discussion thread it was hijacked by Frank Viola’s bedtime antics.

    I’m pretty sure what Frank Viola gets up to in his spare time has absolutely nothing to do with the ‘church discussion’ thread which was started to discuss the Christian Industrial Complex slash Institutional Church System.

    Perhaps you could take the same advice you just offered to Amos? Because your Frank Viola posts quickly shut down what was otherwise a great discussion.


  38. Salty,

    With all the time that we devote to discussing spiritual abuse and wolves in the church. Why would you get so upset at that? That thread was started for the purpose of allowing more discussion right when Mwcamp and I were talking about Viola.

    We understand that Frank Viola is one of your favorite authors. But why would you suggest that we discuss a book then issue a gag order forbidding anyone from discussing the author of that book?


  39. Note: I’m asking Amos and Salty to move this off topic discussion to the right page. If they continue going off topic here, then I will request equal time to respond here.


  40. On second thought, I’m going to retract my 6:21AM comment.

    Salty and Amos are welcome to continue the Church Discussion here for as long as they wish. I’m not going to request that they move it to a different thread because they don’t seem to want to.

    Go ahead for as long as you wish………


  41. Avid, I have no idea why you think Frank Viola is my ‘favourite’ author. I simply referred to Pagan Christianity and its content about the history of the ‘Christian Church’ System.

    I haven’t read any of Frank Viola’s other books nor am I interested in adopting him as my teacher, guru or guide.

    Jesus is my teacher.


  42. Salty,

    We all agree with you that Christ needs to be the focus of our lives.

    What puzzles me is that we’ve spent months discussing all kinds of issues in the church that needed to be addressed. Everything was fine. Then we started discussing Frank Viola’s book and I started finding out who he really was, then you started trying to silence me.

    What puzzles me is why you would try so hard to shut down the info on Viola? I’ve never seen you try to shut down any other discussion.

    You are welcome to disagree with me all you want. I’m just saying that this has felt like you were trying to silence my voice because you liked that book.


  43. Sounds like a lot of complementarían evangelical pastors that think they don’t answer to anyone other than God….. and then maybe not even to God . 😳

    Liked by 1 person

  44. Avid Reader – I do not, and never have, had a problem with women having a ministry, and preaching the gospel. Co-workers.

    Paul’s limitation is very specific, and I believe it still applies today. But it does not silence half the church, and I personally would not want to associate with anybody who tried to do this. There is no justification for adding to what Paul actually wrote, but I know some do this.

    I’m afraid at the bottom of this issue is the question of obedience rather than difficulty in interpreting what the text actually says to us today, and unless there is a prior commitment to obedience then discussion of this – which is unending – usually consists in attempted justification for disobedience. It’s fruitless, especially when it generates more heat than light!


  45. Avid,

    I don’t care about any author of any book. Every single believer (self professed leader or not) has sins they’re working through. Plenty of believers struggle with porn and cheat on their partners. It doesn’t mean they’re not saved it just means they’re working through sin. I know enough about my own walk with the Lord and my own sin struggles to know I’m not perfect and I’m a work in progress.

    Your focus was on the author of the book.

    I was trying to discuss the book.

    Who cares about Frank Viola?

    Not me.

    He’s simply written about the history of the thing we ‘do’ called ‘church’.

    I’m not trying to ‘silence’ you. That’s ridiculous. If you want you could write about a hundred ‘pastors’ dirty secret sins and it just doesn’t interest me.

    Why? Because I haven’t heaped up teachers to the point where I’m surprised they get caught up in sexual sin scandals.

    The fact you’re more interested in Frank Viola’s personal life and sin history than the content of the book I mentioned tells me you’re not so interested in the ‘church discussion’ but more interested in discussing some dudes sin problems.

    I couldn’t care less.

    If any believer actually looks at the history of the Christian Religion and Institutional ‘church’ history and compares THAT THING to the first couple of centuries of simple faith… then we can talk.

    But it seems more people here are interested in picking apart self proclaimed gurus ‘pastors’ than actually looking hard at the religious system which elevated them to a position God never intended them to be in.


  46. KAS,

    Pull your Strong’s Concordance off the shelf and look at all the verses on church leadership. There’s no male pronouns because the NT never limited it to men.

    And Paul actually encouraged women to speak in church. 1Cor 14

    Then Paul commended Junia the lady apostle and told the church to accept the ministry of Phoebe.


  47. Salty,

    After all the time we’ve spent exposing wolves in the church to protect others, how could you say that we should cover up this guy’s pattern of deceit because we’re all just as bad sinners?

    No we are NOT. That’s sin leveling.

    The people reading this blog are good people who work hard and take care of their families. Not like Viola who allegedly refused to work a real job and demanded that his wife pay him alimony because he got caught with a teen girl and couldn’t go back to his high school teaching career.

    Then Viola wrote that book claiming that the whole church is wrong but he has all the answers. Selling books is hard so Viola had to find a slick gimmick to make easy money to get people to buy his book.

    I’d love to discuss that book with you but every time I do—-you try to shut me down. The truth is that you actually don’t want to have an honest discussion of that book, you just want to hear people that share your opinion.

    Discussing a book requires that we look at the full context. Researching a book involves understanding the heart of the author that wrote that book.

    According to Violas own logic in that book, in order to understand something you have to understand the “womb that birthed” it. Then by Violas own logic—-understanding that book requires that we know more about his background.

    How can we discuss a book but issue a gag order silencing anyone from discussing the author of that book? Once again you are trying to control the flow of the discussion by silencing us from discussing the full context of that book.

    I’d love to have an honest discussion with you about that book. But only if you allow us to discuss the full context and stop issuing gag orders.


  48. When Jesus warned us to be on our guard for Wolves infiltrating the church, He said that we would recognize the wolves by their fruit.

    What type of fruit has Viola produced?


  49. Sin leveling reasoning usually goes something like this:

    Because no one is perfect (we’re all sinners), therefore no one can hold the wolves in the church responsible for their bad behavior.


  50. Having been delivered out of an abusive Baptist church by God, the Holy Spirit, I strongly believe that both the male and female leadership within that cult, would absolutely love this posting from Gabriel Hughes (whoever he is.) Women have been brainwashed and manipulated into thinking that their service to our LORD Jesus, is literally pouring up coffee for everyone before the Sunday morning church service, oh yes, and serving up a pile of donuts to overweight men.

    Sitting with its fanciful constructed building made with human hands, Sunday after Sunday, listening to an arrogant Assembly of God trained pastor man, go on and on and on about himself, his family, his faith, his works, his everything, and then being caught (finally), pursuing women on the side for sexual favors (married women), actually leads one to believe that the only titled and entitled pastor ruling in our lives is Jesus Christ.

    Evangelical foolishness, evangelical blindness, evangelical power and control mongers seek to lord it over others, for we have been brainwashed into believing that the hierarchy of the visible church is everything. Church power and control is highly sought after by those who deem themselves more spiritual, more intelligent, and more in tune with the god of their own understanding. I have literally watched people within the church system, politicking for positions of power, and it made and still makes me sick to my stomach! They pull out their sappy, happy “christian” voices from the depths of their hearts, kissing up to the leadership and those with whom are considered “important” with the ecclesiastical system.

    The church political scene is no different than what we visibly see played out within our secular politics on a national level. In the churches that I have attended over the years of various denominations, I have not met one soul who has said, “For I am the least of all of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the congregation of God.” 1 Corinthians 15:9 Paul speaking via God, the Holy Spirit.

    To date, how many of those holding any form of “leadership” position within the visible church have said such a statement? And how many of those titled leadership lords actually HAVE hated and persecuted the sheep of Jesus Christ? And how many of Jesus’ precious sheep have been verbally attacked from the pulpit systems of our churches, or have been slandered and lied about at their secret meetings (church board, deacon and deaconess board, elder board, or any other “board” the institutional church comes up with), and how many of Jesus’ precious sheep have been called “feminists or jezebels” because they choose to make Jesus the “Head and the Cornerstone” of their faith, instead of some pastor man who believes he knows a jesus better than someone else and secretly seeks to indoctrinate folks into believing that he is their mediator between God and man?

    I am totally amazed and in wonderment, when I see garbage like this, coming out of the mouth of a pastor man, for I seek is more frequently these days, where the Gospel of Jesus Christ, has now become the “gospel of gender.” While the theocracy of church leadership debates the details of “replacement theology” in their churches and over the air waves, I am personally concerned with the Gabriel Hughes types replacing the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, with their gospel replacement theology. And an even sicker phenomenon within the c’hurch is how all of these “men of god” hate, hate, hate the fact that women can minister to folks as well!

    I often ponder the thought of Jesus meeting that “sinful” women at the well, she recognizing the fact the her Messiah was in front of her. And in her excitement, she went back to her people, which consisted of both men and women, and shared with them whom she had met. What an amazing truth she had encountered on that day, her LORD and Savior, and she knew! She knew Him! But here’s the deal, in this present day, if this were to miraculously occur by some divine appointment, would the religious men of this day, listen to, hear, and accept what a women of this nature would have to say? Or would the Pharisees of our day, call her a feminist, call her unsubmissive, call her a trouble maker, call her a rebel, call her out as destroying our LORD’s ekklesia, or call her any other derogatory name that church folks/leadership use when they desire to the destroy someone…,,including their credibility and their faith in Jesus Christ?

    I hope and pray at the end of the day, those whom call themselves pastors, do NOT use the persecution Scriptures against Jesus’ sheep when they themselves, are using Scriptures to encourage and build up the true Body of Jesus Christ.

    They too, will one day have to give an answer, as all of us will have to do.

    I still would love to have an answer to the question, “What is a feminist?”


  51. Avid, I honestly don’t believe you have read my comments properly because you seem to think I’m trying to divert attention from ‘pastors’ who ought not to be so.

    My entire argument… MY WHOLE purpose is to point out the very fact that no man, woman or child ought to be placed into the position of ‘leadership’ over God’s people with a title called Pastor which usurps the authority and leadership of the Holy Spirit, who IS God and Jesus Christ our Lord who is THE Great Shepherd of the One Fold we see in scripture.

    You completely miss my point.

    You could spend your entire life pointing out the sins of men who call themselves leaders and shepherds and pastors of God’s flock.

    Or you could expose the system which elevates them to such a status.

    I choose the latter.

    You’ll spend your entire life picking at men who want to be King when we really should be dismantling the religious systems which allow them to be there in the first place.

    If every professing believer burned their favourite teachers’ books and spent more time learning from God directly… via the Spirit he gave us for this very reason, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    Frank Viola is not the content of the book he and George Barna wrote.

    And the facts presented in his book are quite to the point and aren’t up for disputing. They’re simple facts.

    Who cares what men who call themselves pastors get up to?

    Jesus is the only pastor we need to be concerned with.

    That’s my whole point.


  52. Salty,

    When we were discussing Tullian and Doug Phillips and all the others, why’d didn’t you protest then? Why didn’t you complain then that you didn’t want to hear about their “bedroom antics?”

    What is it about Frank Viola that makes you want to silence any discussion on his background but you want to discuss his book?


  53. Several times I’ve requested to move this discussion to the thread for it but no one seemed interested in doing that.

    However, I will respect your request and let this be my last comment on this thread.


  54. @Jimmy Justice: “If it is biblical for a women to pastor a church and have the title pastor, how come there are no women with the title pastor pastoring a church in the bible?”

    This is on it’s face a fallacious argument, and it begins a circular argument.

    For example, you might say there are no women prophets in the Bible. Then you are faced with Hulda, Deborah and Phillip’s daughters. Of course you can either say that disproves my point, or you can do what fundagelical churches do and argue that these women weren’t REALLY prophets.

    You can argue that there are no women deacons in the Bible, but then you see Phoebe, who is called a diakonos. So, you can either say it disproves the argument or you say that “diakonos” is really a generic word, and whenever it describes women, it means simply “servant”, but when it describes MEN, of course, it means DEACON!

    That’s the circular argument.

    In terms of the rest of the fallacy:

    How do fundagelicals deal with the fact there are no “youth pastors” in the Bible?
    How do fundagelicals deal with the fact that there are no “associate pastors” in the Bible?
    How do fundagelicals deal with the fact that there are no “church secretaries” in the Bible?
    How do fundagelicals deal with the fact that there are no “seminaries” in the Bible?
    How do fundagelicals deal with the fact there there is no “church membership” in the Bible?

    So, what we really see here is that fundagelicals use the Bible to prove their point when it suits their purposes, but when the VERY SAME ARGUMENT is opposed to what they want to do, they completely ignore it.


  55. or you can do what fundagelical churches do and argue that these women weren’t REALLY prophets.

    Maybe this is why my old church/school was so insistent that prophecy has ceased!

    You can argue that there are no women deacons in the Bible, but then you see Phoebe, who is called a diakonos. So, you can either say it disproves the argument or you say that “diakonos” is really a generic word, and whenever it describes women, it means simply “servant”, but when it describes MEN, of course, it means DEACON!

    I am so mad that I only learned this a few years ago. Growing up, no one mentioned it. Convenient, that!


  56. Hi Mark

    Great comment… Well written…

    But – Your comment is “fallacious.” . 🙂

    Fallacious = based on a mistaken belief.

    It might help if you read ALL the comments. 🙂

    Your friend A. Amos Love. 😉


  57. Hmmm. I see a different definition of fallacious:

    1 : embodying a fallacy, a fallacious conclusion, a fallacious argument
    2 : tending to deceive or mislead : delusive

    I think my statement quite appropriate. I tied it to “circular reason” which is a recognized fallacy. I tied it to “equivocation” where one word is redefined based on the desired argumental outcome. I also pointed to “argument from silence” that the Bible precludes women pastors simply because they are never mentioned.


  58. And, since you posted under a pseudonym, I think the second definition “tending to deceive or mislead” is probably appropriate as well.


  59. Mark

    I like this…
    “I also pointed to “argument from silence”
    that the Bible precludes women pastors
    simply because they are never mentioned.”

    So I can be a POPE? The Vicar of Christ?
    Because those “Titles” are NOT in the Bible?

    NO, NO, Those “Titles” are already taken… 🙂

    Let’s see, I Gots a Polish uncle… Who taught me everything I know…
    And he became a pastor… A Polish Pastor…

    He was a Polish Pastor, oF the First Church, oF…
    The Pleasant Parables of the Presence oF God…

    And he believed that…
    Proper Preperation Precededs Powerful Performance Pray
    And Precededs the Power oF God…
    So he Prayed a lot.

    He became succesful – Made lots of Money…
    And started his own denomination.

    He always wanted me to come on board as second in command…
    You know – Keep it all in the family…

    He even offered me a great “Title.”

    He said I could have people know me as, and call me…

    “His Holeeiness, The Most Holy Right Reverend, Father Amos”

    But… I always said NO.
    That “Title” is NOT in the Bible.

    But now, thanks to you, I can have a cool “Title,”
    That NO one else has…



  60. Amos,

    Women in the church already face so much resistance in developing our spiritual gifts, the last thing we need is you putting more obstacles in our pathway. Underneath all those endless questions, Amos is directly attacking the call of God on women’s lives. God didn’t put all the limitations on our spiritual gifts that Amos is trying to put.


  61. Amos, ‘argument from silence’ is only one fallacy.

    What you’ve just posited is called “Appeal to ridicule” in it, you misrepresent what I’m saying in a way that makes it seem preposterous so that you don’t have to actually answer the argument.

    I’m not saying that “everything not mentioned in the Bible is okay” as you misrepresent. I’m saying that there are some subset of things, for which the Bible does not directly authorize or prohibit, but must be understood in light of other things that the Bible says.

    For example, a group of people can buy millions of stocks in a company where the stock value is $0.01. Then they spam millions of people, saying that the company is a hidden gem, and worth their investment. Enough of those people invest in the stock so that the value goes up – maybe 5 cents, maybe 10 cents, at which the group sells their stock having made 500% or 1000% profit. If a Christian brother were part of a scheme like that, would you tell him, “good job, the Bible nowhere prohibits it”, or would you say there was something wrong?

    In the same way, since there is no explicit verse stating women can have official roles in the church, that must be derived from other passages that either encourage it or prohibit it, and from general wisdom of seeing what has happened in the church when the church has forbidden women from those sorts of positions.


  62. Mark


    NOT an “Appeal to ridicule”

    I’m-a-thinkn – “Reductio ad Absurdum.”

    Reductio ad absurdum is a Latin term that means
    “to reduce something to absurdity.”
    It is a figure of speech that is defined as
    a manner of arguing something for one’s own position
    by showing the absurdity of the position of his opponent.
    In simple words, it means to reduce an argument to absurdity,
    by drawing conclusions with logical limits,
    or by showing ridiculous consequences.

    And I’m-a-thinkin it is “Absurd.”

    For one of His Disciples to take a “Title”

    NOT in the Bible.

    I’m-a-havin a tuff enough time trying to figure out…

    What is okay, correct, biblical, path to follow, in the Bible…

    Much less try to figure out what is okay…

    That is NOT in the Bible. Oy Vey!!!

    wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate…
    preposterous, ridiculous, ludicrous, farcical, laughable, risible, idiotic, stupid, foolish, silly, inane, imbecilic, insane, harebrained, cockamamie; unreasonable, irrational, illogical, nonsensical, incongruous, pointless, senseless;


  63. Paul says:

    The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

    Now, last time I checked an elder is not an “OX”, so Paul is asking us to apply something that is IN the Bible to an analogous situation that is NOT IN the Bible.

    In other words, God expects us to use our brains to apply areas where scripture speaks to areas where scripture appears to be silent. So, it seems even the apostle Paul can’t escape your “Reductio ad Absurdum”. I’ll throw my lot in with Paul.


  64. Avid Reader – I couldn’t resist; Paul actually told the women to be silent in 1 Cor 14!

    It is actually possible to try to get women to use their spiritual gifts, including praying and prophesying, and simultaneously abide by the restriction in 1 Tim 2. I’ve tried it, but it is very difficult to break the stranglehold of the traditional expectation of one man ‘at the front’ doing the ministry, rather than every member participation.

    None of the women in the fellowship iirc was minded to fight against Paul in 1 Tim probably because Paul in 1 Cor was being followed. I don’t see why this has to be such a big issue. No-one, male or female, has any enforcible rights to some sort of ministry from God. It’s when ministry is seen as conferring status, or even worse, fullfillment that the problems begin, whether his or her ‘ministry’.


  65. KAS,

    To respect Julie Anne’s request, I’m going to post my response on the Church Discussion page. Right now I’m cooking dinner and thinking so this will take a while.


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