Wife Spanking, Christian Domestic Discipline, Domestic Violence
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You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered. 1 Peter 3:7
Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them. Colossians 3:19
In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. Ephesians 5:28
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My heart grieves when I think about how people arrive at my blog. I am able to see the search terms that people use. There are primarily two topics that continually bring people to the blog from search engines: posts related to wives of pedophiles and posts related to “Christian Domestic Discipline, also known as wife-spanking, but more appropriately identified as domestic violence.
Jennifer, a new reader, left a comment on an old article, Christian Domestic Discipline (Wife Spanking): A Personal Story, and a Closer Look at Patterns Connected with this Abusive Practice. I decided to publish it here so that more people could see it and share their thoughts. I also do this with the hope in mind that others, too, may find this article and benefit from the community here.
Jennifer’s comment asks for our thoughts on her situation.
I grew up in a household with the paddle. At some point in our young marriage I told my husband. Maybe 6 months later, we had a bad few days and he arrived home announcing he had purchased a brand new paddle, and as the head of our home (never in question btw) he would issue discipline when needed. I thought OMG here I go again. Ten years later, not so bad. He has never been abusive and uses it sparingly.
Pros
I don’t often repeat behavioral mistakes.
It’s kept out of sight of guests, but in a place where I see it daily as a reminder “it’s there” (pantry).
It is used sparingly; if he mentions it during a tense time, I’m likely to calm down quicker to avoid its use.
Honestly, I’m scared by it and that fear fuels me to be kept in line.
Our marriage is stronger.Cons
It’s an unpleasant experience.
A few times I’ve been upset because I felt it was applied to me under unfair circumstances.
I’m 34 and I want to overcome those issues that result in a paddling, but struggle with it. I think this is the most difficult aspect because without my husband’s willingness to use it I question whether or not I could maintain myself and my role in our marriage properly.
Thoughts?
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Folks, how can we encourage and support Jennifer?
Spiritual Sounding Board 
You are not a child, Jennifer and even if you were, he has no business using a paddle. Got a woodstove? Use that damned paddle for kindling.
I’m serious.
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NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE are husbands or wives for that matter, told to discipline one another. Spanking one another is not a spiritual exercise, it’s a sexual practice common in the swinger lifestyle. I have no problem with someone’s PRIVATE sex play, but this sounds more serious and therefore problematic.
Mary Winkler was forced by her preacher husband to strip nude for beatings with a belt. Other times she was ordered to dress as a streetwalker with 8″ heels and a weird wig. She blew her husband away with a shotgun after he held a pillow over their new baby’s face to stop her crying. Both of these practices were just preacher boy’s perverted, porn fueled fixation.
Jennifer, I would bet you a dozen donuts that your husband is deep into pornography and watching BDSM videos on a regular basis. You have become a prop, instead of a wife that is to be loved more than her husband loves his own body and like Christ loves his children laying down his life for us. For a start: Your husband needs to lay down the paddle, get some counseling maybe and have all the garbage he is watching wiped from his mind.
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Leave. Don’t even stop to pack, just walk out the door. Find an attorney and get a divorce immediately.
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If she was an Australian I’d encourage her to contact the government domestic violence support hotline for legal advice. How awful. 😦
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P.S. Jennifer – to add to Dash’s comment. You DO know that you are entitled to half the family assets, do you? You are supposed to be in a partnership, that’s what marriage is. Laws are very clear – if spouses divorce, whatever cash assets couples have accumulated gets divided, right down the middle. Your husband may see you as property (and feel that he has a right to discipline you) but the courts recognize that as (domestic) abuse. If he’s paddling your children, that’s abuse too. You and your children deserve better. Sensible people recognize the grievous, long-lasting effects of abuse, Jennifer, which is why we have laws.
I’m with Dash – your husband sounds like an authoritarian wanker.
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Oh, this breaks my heart! It is NEVER okay to spank another adult. He has you under his thumb and is treating you like a child. I don’t know that it is sexual for him, but he definitely is using spanking, and the threat of it, to control you. The fact that you see any pros is concerning. You used words like “fear” and “scared”. A healthy marriage should have no elements of fear. I think that your upbringing and your husband have brainwashed you so you don’t see things clearly. It sounds to me that you are suffering from low self-esteem. Your last sentence indicates to me that you don’t yet see yourself as a fully-formed, independent, functioning adult. Please, please get help. Find a counselor and, if possible, a support group. Avoid going to pastors or anyone who supports a patriarchal marriage. I pray you will be free from his oppression.
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Dear Jennifer,
I’m so sorry your life is being coercively controlled through threats of “discipline” paddling from your husband. It sounds like your childhood may have been affected by control also, perhaps with religious overtones, which may have contributed to confusion over whether you’re being abused in this marriage.
You are being abused. You are not experiencing a real, Christian marriage, but rather a power struggle, with your husband exerting psychological and physical control over you. Real marriage is this: Two believers being partners in life…loving, supporting and giving each other compassion and respect. You should never feel fear or shame in a healthy trusting relationship.
In between the lines of your note, I sense that you want to be a good wife and Christian woman. Real faith doesn’t involve legalism. You don’t have to go along with man-made Pharisee-type “rules” such as paddling adult women into submission (BTW, very similar to draconian “rules” about women in other NON-Christian religions). There is nothing in the Bible about Christian women having to submit to that kind of degradation. Since you are sincerely questioning this practice and have the courage to ask about it, I believe and hope that it’s your first step in finding freedom in Christ from this terrible situation you’re in.
If it’s ok with Julie Anne, I’d like to refer you to a recent post on another blog that beautifully illustrates how a real Christian man will treat his wife. The article is posted on A Cry For Justice / Reblogged from Give Her Wings by Megan C.
“Differences Between an Abusive Marriage and a Healthy One — a reblog from Give Her Wings”
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2016/06/24/differences-between-an-abusive-marriage-and-a-healthy-one-a-reblog-from-give-her-wings/
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Bless your heart, Jennifer, you are suffering abuse that is disguised as ‘head of the household leadership’. Your husband is wrong to do this to you. Firstly, you are a child of the King of Heaven and not the pawn of your husband’s misguided authoritarianism. Your husband’s pride has placed himself in the role that God should be. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. But our lives are on a path toward being more like Christ and we are to please Him in all we do. This does not mean that we are to allow ourselves to be beaten, humiliated, and ‘corrected’ by someone who is actually sinning for his own ego’s sake. You are loved. You are a beautiful creation. You are being treated badly and unfairly and your husband is wrong. Please seek wise, Godly counsel from someone outside your church who can help to free your mind of this incorrect practice. Your husband needs counsel as well. He is wrong. You are being emotionally and physically abused, and the Lord NEVER would condone this. There is FREEDOM in Christ, not fear and worry and punishment and despair. Praying for you today!
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I grew up in a family with domestic violence, except my dad used his (very large) hands. As a child, I was terrified of both my parents’ raised voices, and my dad taking my mother into the bedroom and closing the door. The nightmares extended well into my adulthood.
Your children are not witnessing “discipline”-they are witnessing domestic violence from someone who who is on a a major, and potentially dangerous as he escalates, power trip. I believe you should contact a domestic violence hotline and find out what steps you need to take to get out of a really bad situation. It took my mom 20 years leave my dad, who quickly remarried and resumed his violent behavior with wife #2.
I got to keep my nightmares.
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My only thought is “get the hell out!”
In this situation, the behavior is changing in response to fear. In the gospel, the behavior changes in response to love and grace. Your husband is not at all exhibiting the love of Jesus and the gospel.
If your church sides with him, then get out of that church too. Find one that preaches the gospel.
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Jennifer,
Your story has filled my heart with grief. Your marriage IS NOT STRONG!! Repeat….YOUR MARRIAGE IS NOT STRONG. Your marriage is controlling, abusive and full of fear. You are property…..not a wife. Your husband heart that the paddle was used in your life and said, “she’s use to it, I’ll continue on”. NO. Get out. Do not pass go! Do not collect $200. Collect half of everything. Find a GOOD counselor that can help you through the fog of your abused life.
I agree whole heartedly with Song of Joy, visit the Crying Out For Justice blog. Read Barbara Robert’s book, “Not Under Bondage”. Listen to the series of sermons by Ps. Jeff Crippen on abuse. You are wearing a heavy yoke that Jesus died to lift from us.
You DO NOT deserve this treatment, and your husband has NO RIGHT to treat you like this. He has NO RIGHT to force you to submit to whatever he feels is right.
Cyber ((((HUGS))))
Brenda
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Before I got married, I told my fiancé (now my husband of 30 years), “If you ever hit me, you’d better kill me, because you will be a dead man.” I watched my step-father hit my mother and I will NEVER let that happen to me. Would I have actually killed him if he hit me? No. But he knew and still knows in no uncertain terms that any kind of abusive behavior toward me will NEVER be tolerated. You should have rejected that paddle the minute it showed up on your doorstep and now that he has used it, you should reject him. There are NO PROS to being abused. NONE. You mention “behavioral mistakes.” Huh? What does that mean? Is he perfect? (Obviously not if he is using a paddle on you.). Do you get to paddle him when he is imperfect? What are the consequences for him? I have one: WALK OUT AND DON’T LOOK BACK. IF HE’S WILLING TO “SPANK” YOU NOW, HE’S WILLING TO DO A WHOLE LOT MORE. For your own safety, you need to get away from this monster.
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Reblogged this on Speakingtruthinlove's Blog.
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Jennifer…….what your husband is doing is abusive. You are your husband’s wife, and in the eyes of God, his equal partner. You are not his child, and he should not be spanking you!
If it helps, Pastor Carl Trueman of Mortification of Spin has said that if it became known in his church that a husband was spanking his wife in order to “discipline” her (i.e., keep her in line), that he as a pastor would immediately begin church discipline against the husband. You can listen to his show about that here….. http://www.mortificationofspin.org/mos/podcast/23344
Also……I am on Facebook under “Christine Blackerby Pack.” Please feel free to private message me there.
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Jennifer, I also hope you realize that each of the commenters on this thread – and Julie Anne – come from a place of great compassion for you and for your situation. Many of us have experienced, at some point in our lives, a controlling man who was abusive. We know, first-hand, the pernicious effects of abuse. You are doing nothing wrong and I hope you realize that.
YOU and your happiness matter(s) to us. I’m sure you feel that your husband has many good qualities and try to convince yourself that those qualities are more important than this one aspect of his behaviour that is troubling you. I want you to know, in this regard, that a chocolate-covered turd is still . . .well, you know.
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This seems deeply disturbing to me, from an emotional perspective.
I don’t think you can be scared of your husbands behavior (which is what this fear really is) and at the same time have a stronger marriage. You listed these as pros! Please consider that they are not.
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Jennifer, of course you could. Please don’t think that way. You are a grown woman and I’m pretty sure you could maintain yourself just fine.
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I grew up on a home with domestic violence that grew worse as I got older. At first, my Dad took my Mom into the bedroom and closed the door. Later, he would hit her any time, anywhere. It took my Mom 20 years to get up enough courage to leave. I still have nightmares. Please try to get help from a domestic violence hotline or center. You are not safe and your children are not safe, either.
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Hi Jennifer,
I’m so glad you reached out and you are thinking about this issue. I understand where you’re coming from as far as being concerned about your ability to tow the line without punishment. I grew up in a very controlling house where we were all expected to have the same views on everything. After I got married I was very distressed if my husband and I disagreed (thankfully he was fine with it), but I just had this idea that we had to come to an agreement on how we should feel about everything. Of course this is ridiculous and one day I was talking to my therapist and she said, “you’re two different people. Of course you will have different viewpoints! You are allowed to see the same situation differently!”
This has really helped me! Now when my husband I and differ I don’t beat myself up, I just think I’m a different person than he is and I have a different opinion.
I hope you can find a therapist or a domestic abuse hotline to help you figure this situation out – sometimes the first step is believing that you are being abused, and that’s hard because no one wants to be the victim of abuse and acknowledging it means it’s really happening. Best wishes to you on this journey!
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why do these men feel entitled to use violence? who died and made them god? how often does he beat his kids? also, i would bet there is an erection involved sometime during the spanking ritual.
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Jennifer:
Thank you for reaching out and asking questions. If you are okay with reading this, I would like to answer to your “pros” about your marriage:
Are these mistakes that you have deemed that you would not like to repeat? If so, that’s great. When people make a choice to change behavior patterns that they do not like, that shows a sign of strength. However, if these are behavioral patterns that your husband wanted to see changed, then it is abuse. He is controlling you and working to make you the was he wants you to be.
Yes, it is good that it is kept out of sight of guests. I’m sure that it would be extremely embarrassing to you if someone else found the paddle. But…you say it is a daily reminder to you. Again, that is a controlling behavior on your husband’s part to constantly remind you of what could happen if you don’t follow the rules like he wants you to.
I’m sure you do calm down quicker to avoid the use of the paddle. What adult wants to be treated like a child? His “discipline” is demeaning and degrading to you. He is not treating you like an adult or a fellow partner in your marriage.
If you are scared by an object that your husband uses to keep you in line, then you are in an abusive marriage. Abuse is all about power and control. He is wielding that over you.
Is your marriage a vision of what you would like it to be? Is it really stronger or is it a reflection of how your husband wants it to be? Do you think being in fear of your husband and his use of the paddle truly makes a strong marriage?
Jennifer, I admire you for making it this far. You have to be a strong person and have some good coping skills to be able to live daily in a relationship in which you are always walking around in fear wondering what will happen next. It is this strength that makes me confident that if you ever decided to walk away from this marriage, you could make it on your own.
If, and when, you decide to leave, please contact us for help. We will help you find resources in your area and help you with a safety plan. If your husband watches what you do on the computer, do not use the computer at home. Find a safe place where he will not be able to see what you are searching and who you are communicating with.
We are all on your side and will wish you the best no matter what you decide to do.
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The formatting of my comment is weird. Word Press doesn’t seem to like numbers.
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It looked (and read!) fine to me, Kathi. I didn’t even notice the formatting, to tell you the truth, until you pointed it out. Semantics aren’t as important as the sensitive, empowering comment of yours.
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A marriage based on fear is not strong. It is no marriage at all.
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This is terrible. Corporal discipline has no place in a marriage, much less a Christian marriage. The husband is not the father of the wife. The wife is not the child of the husband. Husband and wife are co-heirs together, equal in grace and maturity in the eyes of God. The use of a form of discipline, which is only to be used sparingly by parents in order to help a child realize that actions have consequences, within the marriage covenant, makes the relationship no longer a marriage. There is a hideous resemblance between the husband who disciplines his wife and the father who sexually abuses his daughter. Both are sexually perverted.
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Hi Jennifer, I would like to approach this from a different perspective. I was brought up by parents who wanted to raise me to obey God, no matter what the circumstance. Unfortunately, the teaching of the church at that time was that my parents should put themselves up as mini-gods. That is, that obedience to them was obedience to God, and disobedience to them was disobedience to God. My own personality, my own feelings, my own worth, and even my friendship with my parents had to be sacrificed because if they didn’t follow the program, I would stray.
While I have a strong personality in many ways, I’ve always had this desire to put some human in God’s place. I remember after I was engaged thinking of all the ways my wife was going to help me conquer these sins in my life by withholding certain privileges. Thankfully, that never happened, but I did struggle with the worthlessness I put on myself by sacrificing my desires and needs for my wife’s happiness.
Over time, I realized that God did not use the parenting techniques my parents modeled, and my marriage with Jesus wasn’t about all the ways he could withhold love from me to manipulate me into godliness.
Ultimately, self-respect is seeing yourself how God sees you, and treating yourself how God treats you, and especially, having the correct view of God. I still struggle with this idea that God is standing over me with a big paddle, waiting for me to screw up, so he can swat me into next week. That is not the work of God, that is the work of the enemy. God is the one sitting on the ground with his arms outstretched, encouraging me to take a few steps toward him. God’s anger and wrath was poured out on Jesus so that I can receive big hugs instead of big swats.
I think the comments you’ve received are very wise. A husband who would willingly take on the role of parent and disciplinarian to his wife is a red flag in a marriage. The Holy Spirit can change hearts, but understand that this is NOT OKAY. It is unbiblical and it is illegal. Your marriage is not strong if it is being held together by fear and violence. Marriages are held together by mutual love and respect. Protecting yourself is important, because your husband, who is used to gluing the marriage together with fear and violence, may double down on that if he feels the marriage is falling apart.
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Jennifer, your husband’s actions are regarded as criminal acts in most countries. It is not acceptable.
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Dear Jennifer,
At the age of 34, I can think of no problems that can be solved by corporal punishment. The only “issues” that I can imagine you having are your own self-esteem and your desire to be treated like an adult. If these are the “issues” that your husband is trying to “correct”, then he does not love or respect you. Please, please, please find professionals nearby who can counsel you, and don’t let him do this to you again.
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Jennifer, I agree with Serving and the others. It might be helpful to get a plan in place in case you need to leave suddenly.
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I think that one thing she may need to do is that she needs to document this paddle (don’t throw it away immediately; do this as secretly and as safely as possible). If possible, photograph it where it hangs (or have someone else do it) and have 2 or more friends (or others) observe where it hangs.
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Jennifer, 1 Peter 3:7 states clearly that a man who does not treat his wife well will not have his prayers heard. Colossians 3:19 tells husbands to love their wives and not be bitter/harsh towards them. Your husband’s behavior is clearly un-Biblical, and if you were in my church, I would be your advocate in going before the deacons and pastors for church discipline. It’s not Biblical, it’s not normal, nor is it legal.
Your call on what to do next–I watched my mom wait for years before making her move, it’s hard–but my counsel to you is to get a “bug-out bag” with a bit of cash, a spare credit card, and a couple of changes of clothes–whatever you feel is appropriate. If you don’t have your own credit card, or even if you do, a “bug-out friend”, someone who will take you and your kids in in a pinch, is huge, too.
When you decide to go public–barring repentance by your husband of course–the paddle and a few pictures of the bruises would be helpful, too.
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Demanding perfection of a spouse is prideful and immoral. See Matthew 18:21-35. In a strong relationship between mature people, they learn to accept one another as they truly are and be gracious to one another in their sins and mistakes. They can embrace a fellow sinner, they can cheerfully endure mistakes together and then solve them together.
Women are not peculiar creatures who need force to behave well. It’s true that men and women were cast equally far from God, but both men and women are now being brought equally near to Him, even into union with Christ by the Blood of Jesus. It’s the Holy Spirit who lives in his people and sanctifies us.
Spanking a wife is exceedingly prideful and immoral behavior.And treating women as a class like children, or as if we are especially evil more than men is really an attack on the character of God who made women in his own image, just like men, and who saves and sanctifies us, just like men.
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I guess that “Christian” husband got his holy books mixed up and is following Quran or most western imams.
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Jennifer, I commend you for having the courage to discuss what has been occurring in your marriage. I am sure that was a difficult decision to make.
What I see as an abuse survivor myself is your husband’s exploitation of your childhood experience. He decided to utilize your painful history to further his desire for power and control in your relationship. That paddle is an instrument designed to instill fear and shame. That is not love; that is abuse. Even announcing that he is the head of the home represents his claim on absolute power and authority. True headship emanates from a protective provider’s heart. The man to whom I am now married has never shaken a finger of shame or disgust at me or said to me, “You will…”
Jennifer, you clearly desire to be a loving, devoted wife who conscientiously seeks to please and honor her husband, but in marriage, fear should never be the motivation – love should be. He is dishonoring you, dishonoring marriage, and dishonoring God.
Finally, there must be times when he is in need of some discipline. So who paddles him?
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Is why spanking seriously taught in Patriarchy circles? I know RC Sproul Jr. is said to have spanked his deceased wife, but was he doing what he was actually taught to do?
(Julie Anne, I am now posting using my WordPress account).
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I read the same thing about RC Sproul Jr.
There is a reason he ended up on Ashley Madison. His dad’s board of directors are letting him off the hook.
Wife spanking is abuse… No question about it!
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Jennifer, Does your husband keep you off balance? When you feel you are “in compliance” do the rules change and therefore guarantee failure on your part? Often abusers and their commands are like moving targets. They will always find a reason that you have fallen short of their expectations. You never win this game.
I pray you find a safe place where you can find support and love which will help you discover the precious woman God has created you to be. I believes He weeps for those who are beaten down and and live in fear. Peace. Ann
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I agree with every comment here. So as not to rehash those, I present an article I wrote on this subject, that I think might give a slightly different perspective. The article looks at the church teachings behind such actions, including teachings such as “the man is the head”, and the teachers themselves.
These are not small-time pastors but maga-church ones with large ministries, conferences, and many books, such as Dennis Rainy, Tim Keller, John MacArthur and more.
https://llawrenceauthor.wordpress.com/2015/10/15/husbands-who-think-they-are-god/
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Perfect love casts out fear. There is no place for fear in a loving home.
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There is no circumstance in which this is NOT abuse. No matter what your husband says, and regardless of whether a pastor or anyone else – including friends and family – makes excuses for him, what you are experiencing is ABUSE. I strongly suggest that you find a way to leave. Remember that, if you have children, exposing this to this abuse (even if you think they don’t know, they DO) just perpetuates the abuse, potentially into yet another generation and another marriage.
The people here will help you. What do you need?
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Jennifer, your husband is doing this to you because he ascertained by your attitude that he’d be able to get away with it and because he enjoys it- not just beating you but keeping you in fear of being beaten. He enjoys controlling you, having power over you. Ask yourself what kind of person enjoys that.
I don’t know why you have felt you needed to submit to this degradation but I agree with Dash, it would not be safe for you at all to try to work this out with your husband, just get out and give yourself a chance to find out what normal is.
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Dear Jennifer, first of all, I honour your bravery in asking for other people’s thoughts on this. And I offer you ((hugs)) if you want them. But feel free to decline the offer, or to not take on anything I will say here if you wish.. you can accept or reject what I’m offering you… and I’m okay with that. 🙂
(please forgive me if I am misrepresenting any of the things you said)
You said that
— your husband has never been abusive
— he uses the paddle sparingly
— he keeps the paddle in the pantry
— if he mentions the paddle during a tense time, you are likely to calm down quicker to avoid its use
— when he mentions it during a tense time, you feel scared
— that fear keeps you “in line”
— that his patten of behavior, his reminding you about the paddle, and his occasional use of it on you, has meant that you don’t often repeat “behavioural mistakes”
— that you feel or believe that your marriage is stronger as a result
— that being paddled is an unpleasant experience
— that on some occasions you have thought that he paddled you unfairly and that you felt upset about that
— that you want to overcome the ‘issues that result in a paddling’ but you struggle with it
— you think that without your husband’s willingness to use the paddle, you are not sure whether you could maintain yourself and your ‘role in the marriage’ properly.
I am sure you are right that being paddled is an unpleasant experience.
I believe you are right in thinking that your husband has sometimes been unfair (unjust) in his decision and choice to punish/discipline you.
I think you are right to feel upset when you have been treated with injustice. That is a healthy and godly response to injustice! Jesus was upset about injustice, so you can be too!
I think that a husband is not being a godly husband if he controls/ coerces his wife by making her afraid. By making you afraid, he is not helping you freely love and be close to him, instead he is keeping you on guard, on edge. To make someone compliant by intimidating them is not love, it is an exercise of power and control.
I hear you when you say that you think your marriage has been stronger because of his use of the paddle, but I think that ‘strength’ is only an outward appearance. It sounds to me like you have become more biddable and compliant and that means there are few episodes of friction between you and him — but it sounds like most the adaptation has been on your side, and all the power and control has been on his side.
So your relationship with him is more like a child to a grown-up than an adult to an adult. I don’t think your relationship is healthy. I think it has a veneer of ‘working well’ but it has been built on an ungodly foundation: power and control on his part, fear and intimidation on your part.
I know these things are hard to think about and process, especially for one who has been brought up an family where physical discipline was the norm. And I don’t deny that for small children, sometimes physical discipline is appropriate. But to use physical on an adult is, I think, highly disrespectful. It is not conducive to mutual love, spiritual growth and christian maturity. And it’s not the way God wants husbands to treat their wives.
I suggest that instead of focusing on ‘overcoming the issues that result in paddling’ (which is looking just inside yourself for your supposed flaws), you start looking more at your husband’s love of power and control, and you start asking yourself whether he has an overblown sense of entitlement to power and control.
I also suggest you might want to give thought to recalibrating your idea of what constitutes abuse.
At our blog A Cry For Justice we have a definition of domestic abuse. You can find the blog at cryingoutforjustice.com The blog is co-led by me and Pastor Jeff Crippen.
bless you!
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Precious sister, I’m sorry you are in such a dysfunctional abusive marriage… And that is what it is. Sadly there are a number of churches, pastors, and Christians who will find scriptures to justify abusive behaviors of all kinds. This is largely due to many who mix the Old Testament with the New Testament, and do not understand what Jesus came to accomplish.
When we become saved, male or female, we become a child of God, receiving the Holy Spirit who helps us walk out our new life as believers. The Holy Spirit is the One responsible for teaching us and guiding us and lovingly convicting us of sin. God never intended for husbands or anyone to physically “discipline” us in any way in order to change our behaviors. This is the Holy Spirit’s job… To work within our hearts, not to physically discipline. :). When a husband or anyone tries to manipulate or control other people’s behaviors, they are actually usurping the Holy Spirit’s job… Usurp means:
usurp\yu̇-ˈsərp also -ˈzərp\
to take and keep (something, such as power) in a forceful or violent way and especially without the right to do so
That’s from the median Webster dictionary. May God speak to your heart and draw you to see the truth of His word, His gospel the way he intended it to be. Grace and redemption upon you not to tolerate abusive behaviors and be manipulated by scriptures your husband and likeminded men/ pastors use. Big hugs ❤️❤️❤️
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“Honestly, I’m scared by it and that fear fuels me to be kept in line.
Our marriage is stronger.”
Jennifer, fear of punishment does not make a marriage stronger. Fear just feeds the husbands twisted ego and makes his power and control over you over you stronger.
Tell me, is your husband perfect? Does he never behave inappropriately or say anything out of line? I doubt it. When his behavior is inappropriate, who paddles him? No one, I’ll bet. How do you believe he would react if someone did paddle him, or even threaten to paddle him as a means of control over him?
Walk away, girl. Walk away. In are in a bad relationship with a very bad man!
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This is for real right? I mean we’re not talking National Enquirer stuff like “…woman refuses to abort alien baby…” and such?
Don’t get me wrong, I believe Jennifer, it’s just that it’s as absurdly stupid as the block letter headliners on the tabloids in the checkout aisles of the supermarkets.
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If you’re not consenting to this hitting, it’s assault and battery, pure and simple. The next time this guy hits you, call 911. Better yet, just pack and leave and take your children with you!. No person should be held in this kind of bondage. Moreover, it sets a terrible example for children and continues the abuse unto another generation!
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(I have read ALL the above comments)
Jennifer,
I’m sorry you have this.
You may be feeling that too many of the comments above are advising you to leave, and that the writers can’t really understand your situation. To an extent, this is true, as we only have your comment to go on.
However, what many of them do know is that when power structures are challenged, the world becomes unsafe for the person doing the challenging. It is widely known that abused women are most at risk of violence when they are separating from their abuser. And this IS about power.
You will be placing yourself at elevated risk if you try to engage with your husband about his behaviour. That doesn’t necessarily mean you shouldn’t/can’t, but it does mean you need safeguards and preparedness around you. Julie Anne, for example, mentioned having a plan in case you need to leave suddenly.
You have options. They vary in difficulty and risk. Whatever you choose is your choice and you will not be judged here for it (nor should you judge yourself).
Your husband undoubtedly believes what he is doing is right. His motive may vary. He may see himself as entitled to treat you as he does, or perhaps in a more nuanced honour bound sense where he doesn’t see an alternative and sees no harm in what he does do.
I think the acid question is “How would he feel if Jesus was physically in the room whilst he was spanking you, knowing that you felt infantilised during it?” If the answer is “Jesus would be thinking you deserves it and I was upholding his name” — that spells trouble, big time. If the response is one of embarrassment and “I never thought of it like that”, there might be some room for discussion. If the answer is “Why are you asking me a question like that?” then exercise caution as he may be feeling threatened.
At the end of the day “I feel infantilised” and “I don’t want this” are GOOD ENOUGH reasons in their own right for him to stop. True love casts out fear, and doesn’t instil it. If he loves you, he will not want you to be afraid of him.
If you think you have issues you need to deal with, there ARE other ways than using the threat of a paddle.
Our prayers will be with you.
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I think I would do like one of Willie Nelson’s wives did many years ago. Fed up with his carousing, she waited until he drifted off into a (probably) alcohol-induced sleep and carefully tied him into the bed. He was woken up by her beating the bejeebers out of him with a brookstick, and of course he was trapped, so I’m sure she got a good bit of aggression out on him. Sounds appropriate. As another has mentioned, this is very, very likely sadistic and sexual in nature, certainly has the earmarks. I’d be shocked if he wasn’t into violent porn.
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You have received some wonderful counsel above. I don’t see even one person who supports the notion that this sparking is justified.
What I am hearing from you is that, while on the one hand, your husband is attempting to convince you that this is normal and acceptable behavior, on the other hand, YOU are not sure. On one hand, you list the benefits of being spanked, on the other you list the damages (which you minimize).
What is good is that you are not fully convinced by him that this is good or normal or right or holy.
Questions to ask yourself:
If this is acceptable, why is he hiding the paddle where other people cannot see it?
If this is normal, why don’t other people have paddles?
Why does your husband want you to fear him?
Is it normal for a wife to fear her husband?
What would happen if you put that paddle away or threw it out?
No, no, don’t actually do that, because I think it would put you in serious danger. But what if you did. Think it through. How would he react? Would he become enraged? Would he reach for something else at hand to strike you with? Might it be his fist? a
A knife?
The most important series of questions to ask yourself are these:
Do you matter?
Does your opinion count?
Do you matter to yourself?
Do you honor your own opinion?
Do you even know your own opinion any more?
Find your truth. Just a little truth will suffice to start.
I don’t like being paddled.
I don’t think this is normal.
You found the courage to post the question, so you must not be fully convinced that this is right or good, or “Christian.”
If being paddled doesn’t work for you, that is good enough reason to get yourself to a place where you are not being paddled.
You don’t need his permission to not be paddled. You don’t need to convince him that this is wrong. Because you count. You matter.
Get yourself to a place where this is not a threat. You have feet. Use them. Call your local women’s shelter. Take the damned paddle with you. It has your DNA, and maybe your blood, and can be used as evidence. Don’t leave it for him to destroy.
You matter girl. Your opinion matters. Your feelings matter, your thoughts matter, your life matters. And you have every right to say what happens to you in life. Your life belongs to you, not to him. His life is his and he can choose to be a wife beating, cruel, intimidating, mean bear of a man, that is his choice. Your choice to not accept his cruelty, not to live with his beatings and intimidations and threats and fear is yours to make.
You are not alone. There are people who want to help you. Please reach out to them. That is a good choice to make because you are precious and do not have to live in fear of your safety.
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Meditate on this: perfect love casts out all fear. Fear and love do not reside in the same room. Where there is fear, there is little love – your husband is using fear to control you. This is not love. It is nothing less than abuse. Paddling a full grown woman is abusive, humiliating, ridiculous and speaks volumes about the man who utilizes “discipline” (read punishment) to keep his wife in line. Any man who has to “keep his wife in line” is a weak and sorry excuse for a man. This is not leadership. It’s bullying and abuse. He is controlled by a terrible theology that completely devalues 1/2 of humanity. There is no god in this, no holy spirit, no Christianity, no love. There is only control and power and that comes only from darkness. All this to say, you don’t deserve this kind of treatment. There is no where in the bible that calls for a man to treat his wife this way. Your husband is the one being unbiblical. I would say leaving the marriage is a priority – get away to a safe place filled with safe people. If your church teaches this kind of thing, consider finding another church. Don’t seek advice from the pastor or the elders as they will be no help to you. Above all, be safe and don’t put up with this abusive treatment anymore. You’re worth so much more than this.
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Jennifer,I truly hope you are reading these comments from people who care about your situation. I’m guessing many of us bought into some false teachings as young Christians and so wanted to do everything “correctly” in order to “please God.” As a young Christian I was under the impression my husband should be the one to handle all the money, pay all the bills, handle the household budget. It was the last thing he wanted to do and was a huge burden on him, but we somehow had the impression that it was “God’s way” for the Christian family. Oh, what freedom there is in finding that we work together as a team…he has his strengths and I have mine. I know that is a minor example compared to what you are facing, but I share it to let you know that I believe you are submitting to your husband’s abuse (spankings) thinking you are pleasing God and are very sincere young woman. God is not calling you to submit to a man who is abusing you. God calls a couple to love one another and together, submit to Christ as you both walk with one another in love. I hope you have some people around you that can help you get the help you need to get out from under that abuse. Praying for you.
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You probably have trauma bonds with your husband. If you work on breaking those first (look it up on the Internet), you will be able to see more clearly what is happening. Then you can deal with it.
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Hi Irene and other readers, just a heads up:
I believe the term “trauma bonds” is unhelpful and inaccurate.
Please read this post for a full explanation.
The Myth of “Stockholm Syndrome” and other labels which are used to discredit and pathologize victims of abuse
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2016/01/08/the-myth-of-stockholm-syndrome-and-other-labels-which-are-used-to-discredit-and-pathologize-victims-of-abuse/
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I see that a commenter mentioned domestic violence hotlines, so I wanted to post this: the national domestic violence hotline in the US is 1-800-799-7233 (1-800-799-SAFE) and the website is here: http://www.thehotline.org/help/
This hotline is recommended by the Department of Justice: https://www.justice.gov/ovw/domestic-violence
I hope Jennifer reads the comments and is able to see that this really is a form of abuse.
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Thank you, Amy!
Jennifer, if you need additional help or support, please do not hesitate to contact me (spiritualsb@gmail.com). Kathi and I have helped quite a few women in finding resources in their areas. We’d be happy to help you!
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Who spanks your husband? How is he disciplined when he makes a mistake? How is he held accountable for his bad behavior?
I say this not as an advocate for mutual physical punishment, but as an attempt cast a some light on the true nature of what he is doing. He is not accountable to you, his wife.
If he truly believed in the righteousness of his actions, he would not be ashamed of other adults knowing about the paddle.
The secrecy, the threat of using it to get his way, his lack of accountability in the marriage all point to someone with deep seated psychological problems.
All you have to do to find out the truth is to destroy the paddle and say no more.
This will not get better, in my opinion. It is only a matter of time before the paddle gives way to fists and additional forms of abuse.
There is nothing healthy, normal, adult or non-abusive in this situation. Absolute control is never possible. Absolute compliance is never possible.
Seeking help with the local women’s crisis center would be a great first step to help you get out of this situation.
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Dear Jennifer,
I read your post quite some time ago and had to walk away from my computer, in heartbreak and tears for you and your marital situation. It was very disturbing to read, considering the fact that men who claim to be Christ followers, born again of the Holy Spirit, are in fact, paddling their wives as an act of discipline (?).
The fact that celebrity preachers and teachers, right down to those whom call themselves pastors, deacons, elders, or whatever title they need to feel good about themselves in the Christian (?) hierarchal system, would even remotely consider laying a hand on the wife, or in this instance, taking another object to the wife as an act of what the man defines as ‘discipline.’ This just boggles my mind….for we expect this kind of wicked behavior amongst all of those heathens/pagans/reprobates ‘out there’, not in the 501c. 3 state church system. We point fingers and judge those outside of the church system who lay violent hands on their wives as totally depraved, and yet, in the house of God, the very same evil hearts rule over many churches and homes. How can this be?
If I may be so bold as to give you some encouragement in your faith in Jesus, alone for your salvation, it is perhaps time to do your own personal Bible studies, just you and Jesus. God, the Holy Spirit, will reveal His truths to you apart from the teachings of any other man or woman in human form (the flesh), for as born again believers of Jesus Christ, we have God, the Holy Spirit living inside of us, teaching and ministering to us as He wills. We do not need another man or woman lording it over us as Jesus teaches in His Gospels. And no, you are not “unteachable” if you do not sit under another man’s teachings; our LORD gave you a brain and desires for you to use it to know Him according to His Ways.
I want to encourage you to read, study, and meditate upon these few verses found in Galatians 5:16-26 concerning the fruits of the Spirit verses the fruits (actions and attitudes of the flesh). There is no doubt that you have prayed and prayed concerning your situation, and many believers have been praying for and over you and your family as well. After much prayer and studying the Scriptures for yourself, you may find that your husband’s behavior falls very, very short of what our LORD is teaching through His Word, and that in fact, your marital situation is not grounded in the Word of God whatsoever. And these preachers and teachers who lord this wicked and evil teaching over the rest of Christianity are not in fact, following the teachings of our Jesus in the Bible, but another jesus, a false christ-like figure that appears as an angel of light.
You are loved here, Jennifer, and the true body of Christ, desires goodness and a healthy well being for your life. In prayer for you, dear sister.
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Jennifer, what your husband is doing is illegal and immoral. It is a sexual perversion (sadism) where he gets his greatest sexual satisfaction from hurting another person who is afraid and in pain.
Don’t walk, run to the nearest domestic violence shelter, & have them help you report him to the police. He needs to be locked up, where he can’t hurt others. Please act for the sake of your children, if not for yourself, because, my dear sister in Christ, he is most likely all ready grooming your babies to be his next victims.
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“…and as the head of our home (never in question btw) he would issue discipline…”
It seems he uses Bible language to excuse himself? Others have already told you what to do, and what to think of what he does, but here is a few reasons why this is a terrible use of the Bible: https://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/15-reasons-why-christian-domestic-discipline-is-a-terrible-anti-christian-idea/
Of course, getting out of a bad situation is more important than learning the Bible, here, but if your Bible understanding makes it harder to leave this, this may help. Or not.
Strength to you!
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It is abuse. We are not talking about bdsm. We are talking about a man’s NEED to punish ie beat his wife. If you are sexually turned on as a women by getting spanked great. But this is about a need of the man to dominate and punish.
One story is a grown women wanting to go out with friends. He husband said no. She decided to go. When she got back he hit her with a belt. She couldn’t sit for days. The verbage is the same. I don’t want to do it. You made me do it. The same a man that beats his wife.
Wife beaters whose wives don’t understand They are being beat.
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Are these spankings/paddlings consensual? If they are, there is no problem. If they are not, it is abuse.
MANY woman are in relationships/marriages where spanking is a CONSENSUAL thing. There are many reasons why they choose to do this. But the key word is “consensual.”
Without consent, it is abuse. Abuse is illegal and wrong.
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“Consensual” could be learned behavior or what they are told they will endure because God says they are to submit to. What did they see or receive as children? Is it mentally recorded in the brain as normal? Do they know any better or feel they are not deserving of better? We have to be careful when saying that spankings are consensual. Abused people don’t necessarily speak up or out. It is learned behavior to keep your mouth shut. It worked on me for over 50 years, as it was learned from birth.
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I think it depends on the mentality going into it. If it’s for ‘punishment’ for any reason, or to ‘keep someone in line’ or make sure she does the dishes on time or what you have you that doesn’t seem right at all.
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Brenda R and Lea – Please let me clarify what I mean by “consensual”.
A proper domestic discipline relationship is something that is discussed a long time beforehand, like at the start of the relationship, or when the husband and wife sit down together and discuss it as something they would like to try. It is NOT learned behaviour – to my mind, that is normalizing abuse, and is something we must fight against. Learned behaviour is not consent.
Neither is it consensual when they are told that they must submit to it for whatever reason (including because God says they should – God does NOT say that at all!). Manipulation in any form, or coercion in any form, is not consent.
It is only consensual when the discussion takes place first, and the husband and wife are both in agreement. Anything other than a clear understanding, a mutual desire to travel down that road, and genuine mutual consent, is NOT consensual and is ABUSE.
It can be for punishment and still be consensual, if it is agreed upon beforehand. For example, if the wife decides she wants to change a particular aspect of her behaviour, and asks her husband to help her, by spanking her. Common examples could be sticking to a budget or something like that. But again, it is discussed beforehand, the wife clearly understands that this is completely a choice for her and it is not forced upon her in any way, and there is a clear, mutual consent.
If the husband just takes it upon himself to punish his wife for some reason, with no discussion before hand and no direct consent from the wife, then it is not consensual and it is abuse.
There is a distinct difference between consent and abuse. If there is any doubt at all as to whether or not consent was given, then it is safe to say it is not consensual, which is abuse.
In the above situation, there is clearly no consent and it is clearly abuse. I am hoping by now that Jennifer is now in a safe place and is no longer being abused.
Yes, domestic discipline happens, many couples thrive on it. However, it is a truly consensual arrangement, not something forced upon either party, and discussions are had on a regular basis to ensure both partners are happy to continue in this manner. It is part of a loving relationship. It is not abusive. If that clear consent is not there (as in the case above) then it is not domestic discipline, it is abuse.
I hope my “consent” comment is clearer now.
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What kind of NUTBAR would agree to getting spanked?? Do you think the man would agree to get spanked for a transgression?
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“Are these spankings/paddlings consensual? ”
Ok, am now completely creeped out. A Christian context? As if the one spanking isn’t the one to really be concerned about. Can you say daddy/daughter marriage. There are some very sick teachings out there masquerading as Christian obedience to a human.
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It is, in that I’m like Lydia, super creeped out.
I don’t think spanking for ‘correction’ of any kind is ok, even if supposedly agreed upon before hand. If you’re talking about playing around in bed, fine. That’s not the same thing at all, because there is nothing there.
Women are adults, not very small children. They can reason without physical punishment. That is abusive. I don’t care if they had a talk about it at some point.
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No, what I am talking about is not in a Christian context at all. The way I understand the Bible, there is nothing at all in there that suggests it is okay for a husband to spank his wife.
What I am talking about is a completely different dynamic – Domestic Discipline – which some abusive people have distorted into an abusive practice, which is completely different to what I am talking about.
It is not “playing around in bed’ (that’s different again) it is a way of life. People who choose this lifestyle are not “nutbars” they are normal people who choose this, for many different reasons. For most of them, it is a need deep within them that they were born with, call it a kink if you want to, if it makes the dynamic clearer for you.
It is a legitimate decision that some people make.
Lydia – you mentioned “daddy/daughter” marriage – for some people, that is also a thing. It’s a dynamic where a woman (usually a very strong woman who is in charge of making important decisions in their day-to-day life) desires a strong, dominant man who can take care of her, so she can not worry about being in charge in one aspect of her life. She may, at times, call her husband “daddy”.But again, choosing to submit like this, to hand over control, is a choice that the woman makes. It is not something that is just ‘taken’ from her (that would be abuse) but something she chooses to willingly give.
If you don’t understand the dynamic I am talking about that is okay, not many people do. But I can promise you, it is consensual.
The reason I am bringing it up is because there are some very disturbed individuals out there who think it is their “right” to force a woman into this kind of relationship. Maybe they are on a power trip, maybe they are a control freak, maybe they are mentally unwell. Whatever the reason, they are abusive. Sometimes they use the Bible to justify their abuse. Let me be clear: there is NOTHING in the Bible that advocates spousal abuse of any type.
Those of us in the “lifestyle” (Domestic Discipline) who crave this kind of thing, get really upset when we read about our chosen lifestyle being twisted around by power-hungry, abusive men who think it is their right to mistreat their wives and it is even worse when they twist scripture to pretend it is okay.
Yes, consensual spankings is a real thing. It is enjoyed by two people who are wired in the same way, enjoy the same kink, love each other and trust each other and have chosen this way of life. NO ONE should be spanked (or in any kind of power exchange dynamic relationship) without making a conscious, consenting choice.
I think this is where some people get confused – they are aware that it happens and decide all by themselves that it is a good idea – and force it on their partner. That’s not how it works. That is abuse. In a DD relationship, if at any time either partner wants to the power-exchange dynamic to stop, it stops. Instantly. No questions, no discussion, no negotiations – it just stops.
And yes, Carmen, in many relationships it is the man who chooses to get spanked. But again, it is a CHOICE it is not something forced upon him.
I guess what I am trying to do is point out the distinction between a true Domestic Discipline relationship and abuse. Because of abuse, those of us who live DD get judged unfairly, when there is nothing abusive about what we do at all. But, also possibly because of DD, people who do not understand the dynamic are abusing, and getting abused. This is a classic case of misrepresenting DD and trying to justify abuse. If the wife truly wants this life, that is DD. If the wife has it forced upon her, that is abuse. If the wife has it forced upon her because the church recommends it, then it is church-sanctioned abuse and even worse.
Consent and abuse are very different. If a pastor of a church is recommending wife spanking I would actually be quite concerned. I am a Christian, I live DD. But it is not a “Christian” thing, it is a “this is the way we’re wired and this is what we want to do” thing.
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I have a hard time understanding how DD could even be practiced by “Christian” couples. It sounds degrading to both parties involved.
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Linn – It would be incredibly degrading if it wasn’t consensual. All abuse is degrading. And, to be honest, some people actually make it degrading because they like it that way. But again, it’s all about consent.For me, it’s not degrading at all.
Consensual DD is practiced by many couples, both Christian and non-Christian. Religion has nothing to do with it. That’s what I am trying to get across in my comments – DD is a real thing. It is NOTHING to do with religion in any way, shape or form. Those who claim it is, are perverting both scripture and DD. That there are people who claim to be Christians out there, who say that a woman must submit to being spanked because God requires it of her, is both disturbing and scary. God does not “require” any woman to submit to spankings. If a husband tells his wife that she must, he is wrong, and I struggle to understand how anybody who forces this on his wife can claim to be Christian.
Jennifer claims that her marriage is stronger because her husband spanks her. In a real DD marriage, the DD element usually does make the marriage stronger, but the dynamic between a real DD marriage and what Jennifer is enduring is completely different.
Jennifer lists it as a ‘positive’ that she is scared of it, and that fear keeps her in line. A real DD marriage does not involve fear.
I should add to my comments, that someone told me about this blog, and Jennifer’s story in particular, and asked me to comment on it to try to explain the difference between DD and abuse. The person who asked me to comment does not live DD but knows a little about it, but not enough to write about it with any confidence. She knows several women who are in similar situations to Jennifer’s, but believe that they are living true Christian Domestic Discipline even though they are unhappy about being spanked. Which means, there is likely to be more women in the same situation. My comments are mainly for those women, in the hope that they will see them, and act.
If you are unhappy about being spanked, it is not consensual. Anything done without your consent is abuse.
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“It can be for punishment and still be consensual, if it is agreed upon beforehand. For example, if the wife decides she wants to change a particular aspect of her behaviour, and asks her husband to help her, by spanking her. Common examples could be sticking to a budget or something like that. But again, it is discussed beforehand, the wife clearly understands that this is completely a choice for her and it is not forced upon her in any way, and there is a clear, mutual consent.
If the husband just takes it upon himself to punish his wife for some reason, with no discussion before hand and no direct consent from the wife, then it is not consensual and it is abuse.” -KAK
If a couple is having money problems, send them to Debtors Anonymous for help.
They can have a Pressure Relief Group, learn to have a spending plan, and take action steps in their lives. This is beyond ludicrous about using interpersonal violence.
Consent? There is no consenting to criminal acts. In fact, hitting her is a crime if children are in the home called Child Endangerment. That is prosecuted as a separate crime.
Research has shown that in homes where women are being abused, there are also high rates of other forms of abuse, including child abuse and sexual abuse.
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“Are these spankings/paddlings consensual? If they are, there is no problem. If they are not, it is abuse.
MANY woman are in relationships/marriages where spanking is a CONSENSUAL thing. There are many reasons why they choose to do this. But the key word is “consensual.”
Without consent, it is abuse. Abuse is illegal and wrong.” – KAF
Even if she “consented” to having him degrade her it doesn’t change the fact that there are other crimes being committed: Child Endangerment. That is prosecuted separately from domestic violence crimes.
Not only can he be in trouble for endangering the children, so frankly can she.
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“DD is a real thing”.
And so is perversion.
A little less Driscoll, a little more Jesus.
If my Jesus loving partner ever suggested I paddle him for a good Ol time… My first action would be checking his computer for porn.
Nothing holy about it.
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Velour and Salty, you do realise that your attitudes don’t actually help any woman in DD relationships, don’t you? And even worse, they might endanger women who are in abusive perversions of DD relationships?
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KAK,
YOU do realize that your attempt at legitimizing kink is just that?
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Salty – I’m not claiming there is anything holy about DD. In fact, I think if pastors are suggesting it, they probably shouldn’t be pastors.
If you read my comments again, you will see there is a specific reason I commented on this blog. It is because there are women out there who are in abusive relationships, and they believe they are living true DD. I am trying to make the differences clear for those who might be confused about whether or not their relationship is abusive or not. Just as Jennifer seems to be confused as to whether or not her husband paddling her is okay, there are many other women who are trying to use DD to justify the abuse their husband dishes out. There is a clear difference between DD and abuse. Call it perversion if you wish; but it doesn’t help these women. It won’t encourage them to seek help, it will make them sweep it under the carpet even more for fear of being judged..
DD is never practiced in front of or around children. That would be abuse. And while I am not familiar with the “Child Endangerment” law as I live outside of America, I think we have a fairly similar law here, just called something else.
Remember – just because you don’t understand something, doesn’t make it wrong. If it is a consensual activity between two adults, there is nothing wrong with it. It is when one of those adults aren’t consenting, that there becomes a major issue.
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Carmen – yes DD is probably a form of kink. But labelling it different things doesn’t make it any less widespread. And it doesn’t help those women who are being abused. Separating the two – consensual activity from abuse – and encouraging and supporting women in fighting against abuse – is what is going to help them.
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That’s exactly what has been happening on this thread – trying to help Jennifer. Speaking of consensual kink is something else entirely. Which had no place on this thread, by the way. No matter how you try to ‘spin’ it.
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I think the blog for you is Biblical Gender Roles. That asshat gets off on Christian porn. He’d love you.
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Carmen – I’m hoping Jennifer has long since got herself out of the abusive relationship she is in. My hope is to reach out to other women in similar situations, who are mistakenly believing they are living DD. I was specifically contacted by a regular reader of this blog who knows of several women in this situation, and she thinks my knowledge of DD would be able to help them. I am sorry if you find my comments offensive – that was not my intention at all.
There is no such thing as Christian porn. Porn is porn. Christians who indulge in it should take a good, hard look at themselves. DD is not porn. Although, to be fair, there are plenty of websites masquerading as DD that are porn.
The Spencer Spanking plan (devised by Dorothy Spencer in 1936 I think) is probably the most well-known form of DD. It includes written contracts,so there is no confusion. Most modern DD doesn’t include written contracts, but the clear consent is still there. Which is where I think women in similar situations to Jennifer have become confused – they are aware the Spencer Spanking plan exists, and has helped many, but don’t fully understand the consensual side of it. That is what I am trying to clear up.
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I may be old-er, but I call abuse what it is. If there are children in the home…..they KNOW what is going on. You don’t keep anything from kids. They are smarter and listening through the walls more than you think. “Consensual”, which is Satan’s way of getting into people’s lives and destroying them, or not the children will begin to call it normal. I agree with others that it is child endangerment and sick minded. If a man or woman thinks they need to be spanked, there are counselors that can help them. A strong decision making woman doesn’t need to be brought down in any part of her life. You can make tough calls without being a tigress. You can show love and Jesus in judgement calls at work and home while still being effective in a Senior roll.
This whole topic turns my stomach. I pray that Jennifer is seeking help and is realizing this behavior is not at all what should be happening in any home for any reason.
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Hi KAK,
I’m unsure how my attitude is unhelpful and I’m willing to be corrected.
If a woman told me her husband paddled her bottom and she was afraid, I would show her my spare bedroom and the fridge. That simple.
If she told me she loves Jesus and enjoys a good paddle for kicks, I’d have a different conversation.
In love, naturally.
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Salty – what would you say if she told you that even though she loves Jesus, she chooses to submit to spankings from her husband for mutually agreed-upon reasons, and has done for years, but does not feel abused, and knows she is very much loved? That she doesn’t enjoy the spankings while they are happening but she very much enjoys the way she feels afterwards, and the way her husband treats her afterwards? Would you call her perverted?
What would you say to a woman who was confused about what she wanted? Would you use the word “perversion” to describe her relationship when she likes a DD relationship but doesn’t think she should like it – that perhaps there is something wrong with her for liking it?
How about if it is clear that she is being abused, but she is hiding behind the term “DD” and isn’t able to acknowledge the abuse that is going on? What would you say to her if she submitted to the spankings, and consented to them, and thought they benefited her, but at the same time, she didn’t want them to happen and wanted them to stop?
It isn’t as clear-cut as being either “perverted kink” or “abuse”. There is a whole spectrum here, and women fall at many different places along it. It isn’t as simple as showing a woman the spare bedroom and fridge (although those would certainly be helpful things in the right situation). And consensual spanking isn’t just something that people do for kicks, in the bedroom. That is a different matter entirely and not something I am talking about at all.
I know women in these sorts of situations. I have helped some of them get out. I have helped others communicate their feelings to their husbands and change the dynamics within their marriages. At no time has using the words “perversion” or “wrong” or “unholy” ever helped them.
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A cursory search on Google comes up with many references to this Dorothy Spencer but no proof that she actually wrote any kind of manual. (In fact, it might even be a hoax) There is someone who tried to research it, however, and traced it to a book called Chastisement by John Barry in the 60’s. The book – no surprise – is considered erotica.
As I have suggested, for whatever reason, some christians are ‘into’ this salacious topic and cannot resist the chance to introduce it on some blogs. I’d suggest to you that if you are one of those, get yourself to Biblical Gender Roles’ site – he eats that stuff up. He especially gets off on discussing the roles of women. As you might suspect, he loves telling women what their responsibilities are. The discussions are juvenile and titillating; as I have suggested, it’s christian porn.
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There you go again, KAK. More titillating information and you’ve totally missed the point of this post. Jennifer and HER situation.
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Hi Carmen – if you have a look at the catalog of copyright entries for 1936 you will find Dorothy Spencer’s book listed on June 24, by the Library of Congress.
As for that blog you mentioned, I have seen it before. I can’t say it does a great deal for me. He is trying to claim that the Bible says women should be disciplined by their husbands. I am of the opinion that the Bible does not say that at all. Attempting to use the Bible to manipulate someone into accepting something they do not choose, is not consent.
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If this woman did write a book on this subject (and I am still skeptical) it does nothing to legitimize or normalize the practice. That also applies to your discussion of this topic on this blog.
Striking someone is abuse. Period.
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“Another place the Spencer Spanking Plan might show up would be the Library of Congress, which was fed by copies sent for registration to US Copyright Office during 1936 (the source of Back to Common Sense’s microfilm record). No record exists of the Spencer Spanking Plan in the Library of Congress:”
As I have said, this appears in John Barry’s book and it is considered erotica. It also appears that many christians have been duped into thinking this is endorsed by other christians. 😦
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Kak, consensual does not explain the one who enjoys giving the spanking. We get the whole subjugation shtick that masquerades as obedience to God. But what about the one who enjoys inflicting the punishment? It’s a darkness to delve into but deserves some attention for the sickness it represents.
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Carmen – I am not familiar with John Barry’s book at all. And to be honest, I don’t really care too much about the Spencer Spanking plan. i only brought it up because so many people are familiar with it. But here is the link to where I saw it: you can make up your own mind as to whether it is genuine or not: http://goo.gl/wyB2Wj
Your last statement is one that I also have issue with personally – churches advocating DD, when the woman does not want it. Christians and non-Christians practice DD. But it is not a scriptural thing to do so. That some people think it is, bothers me immensely. If two people in a loving relationship decide to use DD, that is a decision they are entitled to make. But it has nothing to do with the Bible or Christianity in any form.
Lydia – DD is nothing to do with obedience to God. This is a perversion of both the Bible and DD. I would question any pastor or church who advocated DD and claimed the Bible demands it.
Someone who enjoys inflicting pain and punishment is a sadist and these types of people are more commonly found in the BDSM community, not so much DD. Usually, in DD, the husband doesn’t particularly enjoy inflicting pain on his wife, but he does so because it is the road they have chosen together to go down, for whatever reason. Again, BDSM is about consent.
Outside of consensual BDSM, if someone actually enjoys inflicting pain and punishment on someone, I would suggest they have issues in control and abuse, and need to seek help. The word “sick” could apply in this case. Actually, even within the BDSM community, there are some sick individuals who have abuse and control issues.
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Since I had not heard of any of this until you brought it up yesterday, I have been researching. Online, all references to Dorothy Spencer are associated with christianity. Take it up with Google. Also, the vast majority of those links suggest that John Barry’s book Chastisement was the first to mention DS. It’s erotica. What I am pointing out to you – and everyone else on this thread – is that by bringing up the topic AT ALL you are delving into a titillating subject which I have seen on one other blog – Biblical Gender Roles.
Which is why I refer to it as christian porn. There was no need to discuss it, KAS. Jennifer revealed a specific situation, to which people responded in earnest and genuine spirit of helpfulness. I cannot see any positive contribution to saying, “Some people get spanked and like it”. It contributed nothing to Jennifer’s specific situation.
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KAK you said: If two people in a loving relationship decide to use DD, that is a decision they are entitled to make.
There is NO love in the use of DD. NONE whatsoever. It is dark and twisted. I do not believe that Jesus, who died for us in our place, would want anyone inflicting intentional pain on another. A person being asked to do these things and agreeing to it is just as much into abuse as the one wanting to be abused.
Having knowledge of this Dorothy Spencer theory, has nothing to do with Jennifer’s or any other abused spouses well being. It should NOT be used to counsel abused women and I was thoroughly and blissfully unaware that it even existed. I would not be proud to know more about it.
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Criminal minds informs me that such a thing also exists as ‘slave contracts’. Doesn’t make it right.
I hate to break it to you but ‘whatever reason’ is either perversion, or creepy authoritarian/abuse. If adults have bad habits in their lives, or arguments, they cannot be legitimately solved by hitting. We tell children you can’t solve things by hitting and I will tell it to adults too. That is what is happening here, no matter how you try to rationalize it.
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Hi KAK,
“Would you call her perverted?”
Never suggested she was the pervert. More fitting to call her hubby that.
In your experience you found that it wasn’t helpful to use words like perverted, unholy and abusive.
How do you know this? Did you use these words before and found the women were offended?
The first part of your comment made me immediately think, “wow. That’s an abusive marriage”.
Reminds me of a dog who gets a belting from its master only to then go and lay down at the master’s feet.
Lovely, isn’t it?
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“Usually, in DD, the husband doesn’t particularly enjoy inflicting pain on his wife, but he does so because it is the road they have chosen together to go down, for whatever reason. Again, BDSM is about consent.”
I hope others are picking up on your patterns of communication. Before the above quote.toy go on and on implying it is sick and not biblical. Now you are relating how the typical punisher “feels” about it. And they don’t enjoy it. And you know this…..
So what gives? I would suggest you stay in your bubble to communicate such–you are becoming a bit too obvious.
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I am wondering if we’d be having a whole different conversation if we were talking about consensual slaps across the face, hard pinches to fleshy parts of the arms, kicks in the backside, or knocks over the head with a stick of wood.
Can you see what I’m getting at?
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Domestic discipline? I must have missed the part in Ephesians 5 where :Paul tells a husband to beat the **** out of his wife, and vice versa. I know we’ve got some big differences in how we view passages like this, but I’d have hoped we could all agree that putting bruises and scars on the tuckus of one’s spouse is an odd way of washing them in the Word. Maybe it’s the iodine and antibiotic cream after the session that does the trick? And the ice pack?
And the works of Spencer and Barry? OK, first of all, it’s worth noting that we’re not hearing much from their spouses, who probably might have something to say about the matter if they’d been keen on it. Maybe….just maybe..they weren’t.
But that said, maybe I should give it up. If people don’t see something horribly wrong when people put pictures of their spouse’s naked, bruised rear end out on the Internet, I’m guessing that the classical tools of rhetoric are not exactly going to persuade them.
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Yes, Carmen, I can.
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Hi Salty – yes I have used those words before, in many different dealings with women in DD relationships (and abusive perversions of it) both online and face-to-face and yes, the women did find it offensive.
Lydia – Yes I do know how the punisher feels in a DD marriage because I have worked with many couples and they have told me. As to my patterns of communication? Please elaborate as I’m confused … I’ve been working with abused women, and those tied up in DD, for a long time. Most of my training has been done through Women’s Refuge here.
As for me … it’s probably best if I don’t come back to this thread. My intention was to help, but it appears that all I have done is offend people, and that was not what I wanted to do. If anyone is in a situation where they would like some moral support from someone who understands DD, please ask Julie Anne for my email address.
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“Lydia – Yes I do know how the punisher feels in a DD marriage because I have worked with many couples and they have told me. As to my patterns of communication? Please elaborate as I’m confused … I’ve been working with abused women, and those tied up in DD, for a long time. Most of my training has been done through Women’s Refuge here.”
This is even more confusing. Husbands have told you through working with their abused wives they did not enjoy spanking them? Or did the abused wife tell you what the husband felt while spanking? You do know not to work with couples in such situations together but separately, right?
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