Crazy Things Church Leaders Say & Do, John Piper, Troubling Tweets

John Piper’s Tweets: Picking Apart Piper’s Peculiar Prattle

We’re taking a look at some of John Piper’s most recent tweets. What do they mean?

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We’re going to have a Piper Twitter fest today. I had originally planned to post only one tweet, but he’s been active on both of his Twitter accounts lately: @desiring God  and @JohnPiper.

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Ok, let’s first start off with one tweet in which I actually agree.  Actually, I think this is one we can use as a barometer to compare with the others:

 

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I think sometimes Piper must not think before tweeting. The following is what he tweeted on the same day the world was shocked to hear and see clips of a video in which a 26-yr Jordanian pilot was burned alive, set on fire by the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS). It was very poor timing to tweet this:

 

 

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This is confusing to me because Piper believes that God is Sovereign and controls every molecule, so why would he suggest to pastors to use good vocabulary? Doesn’t that put the onus on pastors and contradict Piper’s beliefs that it is God who does this work? Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’m open to hearing your thoughts and criticisms.

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I’m sure the following would be comforting to parents whose child has a terminal illness (sarcasm):

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Oh yes, and this phrase would be perfect to include in a card to a woman who is currently married to an abuser, doncha think (more sarcasm)?

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Ok, and now we’re at the original tweet that was going to be a post of its own:

 

pipertweet
https://twitter.com/desiringGod/status/562437166001713152

 

 

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So when David was thinking about killing Goliath, that was a sin?  When Adam and Eve saw each other naked in the garden, was that a sin? When Jairus was weeping because of his daughter’s death, was he sinning? When I’m taking a shower or doing the dishes and my mind is not on God, does that mean I am sinning?  When I’m with my study groups at college discussing relational databases or frequency probabilities, am I sinning? When you are eating a meal with your family and enjoying their company, are you sinning. Seriously, what does this tweet mean?

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jp2

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John Piper has 702 THOUSAND followers and the Desiring God Twitter account that features John Piper quotes has 294 THOUSAND followers.

I imagine that most of these followers are people who believe his words, ponder them, and try to apply them to their lives.

Do you see how damaging some of these tweets could be if they were internalized, especially victims of abuse?

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258 thoughts on “John Piper’s Tweets: Picking Apart Piper’s Peculiar Prattle”

  1. The one on disease really makes me ill (pun intended, although this is not at all humorous). Disease is a product of the fall, as is death. God did not intend any of this as being the purpose of creation. To say that God uses disease to show us sin puts it backwards. It’s sin that brought forth disease, that is, sin is what allowed disease to enter creation in the first place.

    P.S. Piper’s Ebola tweet was another example of how he needs a better advisor on social media: https://timfall.wordpress.com/2014/10/10/john-piper-takes-unfair-advantage-of-the-ebola-crisis/

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  2. The problem with twitter is that often you cannot properly reference some statements and even worse unless you understand the context from which they come they tend to caricature the person tweeting them. I could probably contextualize most of John Pipers tweets that you have copied here because I understand what he is really trying to say. My suggestions to you is not to react to a 150 character quote as though it properly defines the persons whole world view. I say this not just as a defense of John Piper whom I have no time for whatsoever; but for anyone who uses Twitter!!.

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  3. And his Calvinism shows via comment #5. God cannot be just if he judges and punishes people for doing what God makes them do. I also don’t like his other comment about “experiencing God”, as if Christianity is a theme park.

    I will give him a little credit though about the burning comment. I think you can time tweets in advance?

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  4. That is a possibility, L. Lawrence. He may have scheduled his tweet. But he also can delete them when timing is inappropriate. It seems either he or a staff person could have taken care of that – especially when others make note of it.

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  5. It’s possible that many of Piper’s followers are people who use his tweets to expose pastor abuse in Christian circles, much like you do. Some of what he says is different ways of spinning things I heard in my days of Campus Crusade for Christ, and others are just batnuts. He’s a good reason for why it’s almost impossible to determine who/what a “real Christian” looks like.

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  6. I’m inclined to agree (I think) with chrissymonds65. Piper is not a man of few words. Less is not more with him (though personally I think more is not more with him either). I wish he would give up twitter because he is so susceptible to looking like a total a*s. Some people are good at succinct and can fit important things into 150 characters or less. Piper is not one of those people, IMO.

    What I would like to know is, how many of those 996,000 people are following him because they think he’s a bastion of awesomeness and how many are following because someone told them they are supposed to think he’s a bastion of awesomeness?

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  7. It is better to marry than to burn. But burning is not bad. It may be a holy calling. http://bit.ly/1DzoGlh

    This was from an article about singleness. When I read it I also had heard of the death of the pilot. The two are not related. Since I read it in the middle of my day the thought of it being inappropriate did not even enter my head. I imagine his as well. He was only promoting an article on desiring God that he did not write.

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  8. Full discourse: I attended the pastors conference where all these have their context.

    Julie Anne wrote: This is confusing to me because Piper believes that God is Sovereign and controls every molecule, so why would he suggest to pastors to use good vocabulary? Doesn’t that put the onus on pastors and contradict Piper’s beliefs that it is God who does this work?

    It’s no contradiction between God being sovereign and God using means. Romans 10:14 makes the use of means clear: How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? (‭NIV)
    Roman soldiers killed Jesus. Gods plan from the beginning of time was for Jesus to die. So sovereignty and means are not mutually exclusive.
    Therefore, speak clearly. Use good words. Words are means used by free-acting people in the perfect plan of God.
    I think that’s the correct way to understand that.

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  9. Regarding sin and disease, Tim is right. Disease is a result of sin. Pipers point is that we can easily see how awful disease is, but we don’t easily see how bad sin is. We should understand that in this instance Piper is referring to sin as the general corruption of human nature and its results in the world, as opposed to God inflicting specific judgment on a specific person for a specific sin.
    So what he’s saying is not “that little girl has leukemia because she’s a wretched sinner” but rather “leukemia in little girls exists because sin’s corruptive influence even affects such awful things as causing little children to die of horrible diseases. So don’t kid yourself by playing with sin!”

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  10. I don’t think its such a good idea to get absorbed in any ‘tweets’ from a man who is currently alive. J Vernon McGee for example is NOT alive. There is a link to his account…… he’s never used Facebook. the words men leave behind seem only to be truly good when they are gold refined in the fire. Same goes with martin Luther or other big name men of the past. “all men are liars’ as scripture says so eloquently for a reason or two.

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  11. ‘We all need critics, because we are all prone to distort the truth by how we use the truth’.
    After my experience with the Presbyterian Church of Australia I gather these critics cannot be women. And is that him admitting to distorting the truth.

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  12. Joe Reed I disagree with you that the Roman soldiers killed Jesus. The Roman soldiers only carried out the orders, it was the Jewish ruling class that crucified Him. They knew that they did not have the power to execute someone so they trumped up charges of sedition which put the offense under the power of Rome.

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  13. Please dont let this get out, showing mercy against someone you literally cannot stand to listen to is a vile evil and filthy sin. One should always pray for God’s holy wrath to fall on those you disagree with, and their families. I feel sorry for Piper, he is stuck in an eternal brain fart and he cant get past it. The disease “tweet” is just stupid, disease is caused by environmental issues, genetic predispositions, viruses, bacteria, and other modalities. It is not caused by some fall of some single pair of progenitors who “disobeyed” God. That is a fine response in a theological sense, but if we applied it to actual responses to said causes of illness with such theological answers our kids would still be dying by the trainload from diseases we have learned to intervene with. I dont know, I am glad our kids dont die by a train load from some diseases. Me and Piper live in two different universes, I loath his universe and would rather burn than live in his closed system. I am actually beginning to think some of these guys are functional “Atheist” but have so much skin in the game they cant admit it.

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  14. Warms my heart to know that what I’ve been and am experiencing with two terminal diseases and the other losses (almost everything) is and has been caused by sin. Who’s ? Mine, yours (anyone’s) ? You learn a lot when you walk in the shoes of something. Talk and opinions are cheap. What do these words do to spread Jesus and His incredible love for us. Words do matter, as well as their timing. As a young cop in the academy I was very interested in ethics blocks of training. One very respected instructor hammered home that, especially in the public’s eyes, the appearance of wrong doing (including use of words) was as damaging if not more sometimes than the actual wrong doing itself. During my 25 years of 32 involved in supervision and management, I saw this dynamic destroy the public trust and many careers often when there was no actual wrong doing.

    With the pastoral abuse I have experienced the last few years with the result being the loss of my wife and family, I can tell you that I believe a pastor should know the importance of words as well as action the same or more than someone in a secular leadership role. Thanks Julie Anne for bringing this up for discussion. I’m with you, maybe he didn’t know the impact or possible timing with current events, but after realizing it delete is powerful and wise. I’m a little “touchy” right now so maybe I’m wrong, but no free passes.

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  15. If you want to know John Piper’s heart go to YouTube and search John Piper abuse and watch that short clip. He has no empathy, compassion or common sense. He should not be allowed to tweet, it usually turns out completely wrong or backwards. I don’t read his books for the same reason. More often than not, if you pay attention to what he says, it is backwards of what the Bible says.

    Sin started in the garden. Adam and Eve took the bate of the evil one. We live in a sinful world and disease goes along with it. I would hate for my friend who has no further treatments available to her in her cancer battle to read that tweet. She is so joyful through the whole experience and looking forward to seeing Jesus in person, but sadly will leave behind a husband and 2 daughters. One of her girls is only 12. Each day is very precious to her.

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  16. Regarding the sovereignty issue… I’m not going to say where this quote came from, because this person has his own share of controversy, however this person asks many questions regarding what we’ve been taught for years by people like Piper, Jmac, etc. when preaching that makes you think. Here is the quote-
    “Any definition of God’s sovereignty that allows evil to exist as a part of His will and purpose is an IMMORAL definition of sovereignty…”

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  17. Gracie,
    I found this quote. I am listening to the sermon right now. I’m not sure what the controversy is for him, but so far, 15 minutes in, he makes sense. At least in this sermon.

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  18. Piper: “God never sins, and he plans and governs all human behavior, including the murder of Jesus for our sake.”

    This is ESS. in that construct Jesus is viiewed as a lesser god. Piper maps hierarchy in the Trinity to hierarchy in the Body and in marriage. Note, Jesus is not a sacrifice but was murdered by God. There is also his signature shock jock shitck.

    I think Piper is evil. but he does not bother me as much as all his followers bother me. They tend to hang on his every word as ex cathedra and take it as gospel into thousands of church is all over this country. they would be better off to question and analyze every word.

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  19. Piper seems to be one of those “little men” who has serious self-confidence issues, and found a platform where he can speak in an authoritative, confident tone, and people will listen. Inserting Bible-y language and scripture references everywhere seems to draw in those who are immature and may be naive, but who genuinely want to follow God. Many “Christian” cultures teach that the more guilt you feel, the holier you are–Piper feeds this well.

    Piper is much like my former pastor, who was well known for giving horrible advice on real life situations, yet for some reason was highly respected for his “biblical counsel”. Yes, there should be more analysis before you start listening to someone just because he inserts cherry-picked scripture references every other line, or because he *sounds* like he knows what he’s saying.

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  20. Gracie, I agree with the quote. Guys like Piper are basically say ing that god is not sovereign over his own sovereinty. that God is nothing but a glory hound. That is all God cares about.

    I believe Yahweh wants us to find cures for diseases and alleviate suffering.

    Pipers god sounds more like allah. the only way for pipers god to work iis to remove human volition. Which is what Piper does. he descries himself as a 7 pt. Calvinist. In his view, our very existence is sin.

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  21. An evil, monstrous, abusive ruler executed people while they worshiped. A tower fell and killed 18 people. Jesus made two statements. The first is easy to swallow – these people who died untimely, horrific deaths weren’t worse sinners than others. The second response he made – take a guess and and read it in Luke 13:3 and 5. Perhaps we should wonder if Jesus was insensitive and “abusive”!

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  22. Tweet 1 is a lie and indicative of Piper’s false gospel. Piper’s opinions are not the issue, his gospel is the issue. The tweet is a denial of the new birth. Born again believers are NOT “prone” to distort truth because they love the truth. The fact that many will follow such teachers in the last days is predicted over and over again in the New Testament.
    Moreover, the Reformers clearly viewed world philosophy as the starting point for understanding the Bible. To understand Piper is to understand the Dualism worldviews that formed their Protestant gospel and theology, in general. An exegetical interpretation of the Bible as a source for truth wasn’t even in the ballpark.
    Listen, I love everybody, but these tweets flow from a specific worldview. Piper NEVER contradicts himself as some assert—it’s a matter of understanding his worldview. The institutional church is led by philosophers, and too few Christians understand the philosophies that drive Western thought and Protestantism, in particular. These guys are philosophers first—period.

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  23. For the Piper defenders here, even when you take the poor timing of the language out of it, what the article to which he was referring is saying about burning being a good thing is total load of junk in context of the actual Biblical passage referenced.

    The greater problem with his and other neocalvis’ tweets is that in their efforts to sound theologically “deep”, the substance of their word play, when you actually peel back the layers of rhetoric for the purpose of trying to sound smart, is a load of theological bull crap.

    They seemingly always trying to say something new and profound, and its all a bunch of crap. People see it, and this movement, and all of its skinny jeans and Buddy Holly glasses is dying away.

    These losers need to stop trying to put profound riddles on twitter and actually start reading their Bibles at face value, instead of trying to concoct some junk for their next book or conference.

    By the way, I guess Piper was “burning” when he was checking out those two teenagers down by the lake a while back. (Another ridiculously stupid tweet).

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  24. Brenda, I have actually learned a lot from that pastor. But because he is pentacostal, he gets a lot of grief, and many think he is quite ‘new agey’. (He’s not) One of my favorite things about him is that while he believes in the gifts of the spirit, healing etc. he will flat out say he doesn’t know why some people get healed and some don’t. He doesn’t make any claims he knows why God does this or that. I have much respect for a pastor who doesn’t act like they know it all. he is a very humble man.

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  25. brian: “I feel sorry for Piper, he is stuck in an eternal brain fart and he cant get past it.”

    LOL! Thank you for the laugh this morning.

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  26. In Matthew 12 Jesus has words to say to the Pharisees who utter careless words:

    33-36 – Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

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  27. John Piper has 702 THOUSAND followers and the Desiring God Twitter account that features John Piper quotes has 294 THOUSAND followers.

    Assuming all those followers are real. I understand it’s REAL easy to pad your Twitter numbers with dummy follower accounts. Afternoon drive-time radio yesterday claimed knowing a guy who “paid five bucks” for some “Web service” to generate “Six thousand Russian followers” for his Twitter account.

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  28. HUG, there are some people who determine the truth of your comments by how many followers you have on Twitter. It’s so idiotic.

    If they have 100 followers on Twitter, and you only have five followers (for whatever reason, maybe you only jointed Twitter two days ago), they take that as some kind of weird evidence that you are lying, cannot be trusted.

    But they think you can totally trust someone with 100, or 500 or whatever followers.

    I have seriously met some people on the internet who believe this.

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  29. Gracie,
    I like the way he used the word Mystery. God is mystery in many ways. We will never completely understand Him until we are home with Him. He seemed to be very humble.

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  30. I have a lot of problems with his tweets. For one, because of his vast audience, he has a responsibility to carefully select his words. If he’s quoting something that could be misinterpreted or needs more clarification, then he needs to link it to the source so people can see the context. Or, he could type up a fuller message, screenshot it, and tweet the screenshot.

    But the idea of sending out such weird tweets without offering any clarification is wrong. The one about watching the couple making out by the river was one that was so bizarre and many, many people challenged him on that. You can be sure he got the notifications.

    Yesterday, there were a couple of people who noted the poor timing on the “burning” tweet. It would have been so easy for him to tweet a response or remove the tweet entirely. But he didn’t do that. So that indicates to me that there is no 2-way conversation at least on Twitter. And that makes me think: wait a minute – – why would you have a Twitter account if you are not going to engage with people? Ohhhhh . . . . maybe because you just want to be heard and don’t intend on engaging. Hmmm. So is he using Twitter as another platform to endorse himself? That’s a troubling thought.

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  31. Personally have not read any of the comments here yet as I desired to approach the burning sick feeling in my whole being concerning John Piper’s gibberish “The ugliness and desperation of every disease………”

    I will address this statement coming through the front porch door from a personal experience within the church. There was a possibility the lump my doctor removed from my head was cancerous and when she mentioned the “c” word in that examination room before I left, fear overwhelmed me and I wept all the way home that day. I was already scheduled for surgery to remove a large (non-cancerous)growth from my abdomen and a suspicious growth in my ovary, and then to hear this news on top of that.

    I shared the news with a faithful church goer as God’s Word instructs us to share our burdens with one another. This individual was more than pleased to tell me to my face that “The reason you are experiencing all of this is because of YOUR SIN.” I was rendered utterly speechless in the presence of this religious church member.

    Then I tried to share my news with another faithful church goer, and she stopped me point blank, waving her arms in the air as she said, “No, no, no, we don’t speak those words of sickness into the air because there is power in our words.” Again, as my eyes widened, I stood there dumbfounded. This is the direct result of having a Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, and any other health, wealth, and prosperity false preacher and teacher so called Bible study within the church system. The lies soak into the church whole and the hearts of men and women become cold, hard, and completely self absorbed.

    So my health issues were the direct result of my own sin as instructed by the super spiritual within this particular church. I began asking our LORD to show me which sins I had committed that would trigger these diseases in me and I also asked Him why these people chose to speak those words to me…… and no, God didn’t tell them to speak those harsh words to me, they did this on their own apart from the leading of the Holy Spirit. Then I wondered if the first individual spoke those words to his father who passed away from a brain tumor…..I know for a fact he did not. Then I wondered if the second spoke those words to her children when they were hurting and needed a kind listening ear and a mother’s love. I doubt it.

    So I petitioned the non-churched who know Jesus as their own, for love, kindness, support and most of all….prayer. Yes, I longed for all of those and God was faithful and merciful in every area of my surgery and recovery. The unchurched brought meals over the first few days and most of the cards I received were not from the 501c. 3 church members as they boast and brag in the rags of self righteousness of how they know Jesus better than anyone else, no, most of the beautiful cards received, many of which stated “we are praying for you”, came from the saved non-institutional church, or the ekklesia-called out ones. Perhaps this was our LORD’S way of putting the pride of those who place their hope, faith, and trust in their church membership card and Sunday morning attendance as their way and means of entering into heaven, to absolute shame. I do not know.

    And as I sat on my back porch during my recovery reading and meditating upon the goodness of God’s Word, He showed me a very valuable life lesson which transformed my life…..and that is this……we, the Body of Christ are to “BE” the church 24/7 wherever we go and minister as the Spirit leads us. I humbly submit in the public forum….”All glory, praise and honor belongs only to our LORD.”

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  32. You make some good points. I would guess that he is trying to use it as just another social media platform to get his word/name “out there”, since that is what so many marketing people recommend: Using as many social media forms as you can to reach as many people as you can. But what you said about engagement is true. I struggle with Twitter, because I am too verbose. 🙂

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  33. Katy, wow, what a story. I can’t imagine having those heavy burdens of wrong doctrine convincing you that you were the problem hanging over your head. What a valuable lesson you learned about the true church.

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  34. Julie Anne –
    “Why would you have a Twitter account if you are not going to engage with people? Ohhhhh . . . . maybe because you just want to be heard and don’t intend on engaging. Hmmm. So is he using Twitter as another platform to endorse himself? That’s a troubling thought.”

    Totally agree with you!

    It’s the same with people who have blogs but don’t allow comments. They want to be heard but they don’t want to engage.

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  35. You know, Bridget, there was one tweet that Piper took down. It was after a devastating tornado in Oklahoma. I had the screenshot of it which went viral. So evidently a lot of negative publicity will move him to action, but just a couple of negative responses don’t mean anything when you have that many followers.

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  36. @ Katy:

    Theirs is a sick and twisted god (small ‘g’ intentional) more in tune with the gods of the Greeks and the Canaanites . The God of Abraham and the God who chose the seed of the woman to destroy the works of the Devil isn’t anything like that. If you’re not yet free of the toxic religion you’ve described, it is my fervent hope that Providence free you.

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  37. @Katy:

    Then I tried to share my news with another faithful church goer, and she stopped me point blank, waving her arms in the air as she said, “No, no, no, we don’t speak those words of sickness into the air because there is power in our words.”

    “Power in our words” as in ABRACADABRA (literally “I Speak and It Is So”)?

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  38. @Daisy:

    HUG, there are some people who determine the truth of your comments by how many followers you have on Twitter. It’s so idiotic.

    1) Like I said above, there are service providers who can CREATE hundreds to thousands of dummy Twitter followers for a fee.
    2) I know of a guy who’s a Big Name on Social Media, with lotsa Facebook followers and friends. Major Playa in Hollywood and Master of Mighty Magick in neo-pagan circles. Guy is 52, literally lives in his Mommy’s basement, is on welfare and disability, neglects his health, and hasn’t held a job in years. With no job and no life to get in the way, he can spend 24/7/365 building his brand in Social Media(TM). And that’s all you need to know about Social Media(TM).

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  39. Katy,
    “we, the Body of Christ are to “BE” the church 24/7 wherever we go and minister as the Spirit leads us. I humbly submit in the public forum….”All glory, praise and honor belongs only to our LORD.”

    Amen. You were treated wrongly by people. Disease is part of being in a sin filled world, not personal sin. A murderer could live, hopefully in prison, to be 100. A baby could be called home to be with the Lord the day he/she comes into the world. You should have been hugged, cried with and comforted. We will have trials, whatever they might be. Our brothers and sisters in Christ should be there for us. When they aren’t they are showing what kind of fruit they are bearing. What these people said to you was rotten fruit.

    The church I attend isn’t perfect. None are, but when people have needs as you did, there is always someone there for them. We are community even with those that are not part of the local body. We are to be his Ekklesia 24/7/365. ((((HUGS))))

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  40. For one, because of his vast audience, he has a responsibility to carefully select his words.

    Julie Anne, he does carefully select his words. All of these guys carefully select their words. Granted they are probably a bit less stringent about it in tweets than in books or official church/organizational documents. But every word that is chosen and every word that is NOT chosen is deliberate and intentional. They mean to say what they say and they mean to NOT say what they DON’T say, and they mean to say it the way they say it. And even in less stringently scrutinized tweets they still will not veer far from their broader intentions.

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  41. Katy

    Appreciated the outcome of your horrific experience with…
    “a faithful church goer” and “religious church members”

    “And as I sat on my back porch during my recovery reading and meditating upon the goodness of God’s Word, He showed me a very valuable life lesson which transformed my life…..and that is this……we, the Body of Christ are to “BE” the church 24/7 wherever we go and minister as the Spirit leads us. I humbly submit in the public forum….”All glory, praise and honor belongs only to our LORD.”
    ——-

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  42. Piper uses twitter the way a small child engages his environment. Children are naturally egotistical and assume that others understand their point of view with little explanation. Most three year olds assume everyone (even strangers) knows his family, who his teachers are etc. Of course most children develop beyond this phase. Piper comes across as a man who assumes his audience automatically understands and agrees with the context of his words. When the world revolves around your point of view, explanations are unnecessary. (Snark!)

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  43. John: I hope you are still out there, brother. Your career was not in vain. I am sure you got a lot of bad guys off the streets. LEO is often a thankless job. But a LOT of people appreciate what you do. You can’t be responsible for some wimpy judge letting criminals off, or even for the behaviour of the bad apples within law enforcement who make the headlines. Trust God.

    I don’t know the full extent of your physical problems, but the Lord will never forsake you. As for abusive pastors, a lot of those guys don’t live in the real world.

    I don’t know exactly what happened with your family. If they were led astray from you by some “pastor”, he/she is going to answer to God for that. Just remember how much you have helped people. Even when they did not seem to give a rip. No “pastor” or movement can stand between you and God’s love!

    If you are still reading this blog, please let me know you are OK. God Bless you brother.

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  44. JA,

    Since you said, “correct me if I am wrong, . ..” I am correcting you. Piper does not deny human responsibility. We have a responsibility to present God’s truth as clearly and cogently as possible. The bottom line is that after we have done our best to plant the seeds of the gospel, it is God’s work to cause them to grow.

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  45. JA,

    Perhaps you are just too theologically or linguistically inept to understand what Piper tweeted. He did not suggest that it is sin to love anything or anyone other than God, but that it is sin to prefer anything or anyone above God. I fail to see what any of your comments had to do with that issue.

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  46. Jesus willed that He would die, because he loved (and loves) us. His Blood washes away sin. To say he was murdered is only correct in a human sense. The people who chose Barrabas and the executioners themselves meant it for evil. They were wrong.

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  47. Randy

    Was wondering…
    Do you know Piper personally?
    And has he told you something different then what he tweeted?

    I ask because you write…
    “I am correcting you.
    Piper does not deny human responsibility. “

    Now, I might be “theologically or linguistically inept
    to understand what Piper tweeted.”

    Because I do have a Polish Uncle who taught me most of what I know… 😉

    But, to me when when Piper says…
    “God… plans and governs ALL HUMAN BEHAVIOR…”

    That sounds to me that Piper does
    “deny human responsibility.”

    “Piper: God never sins, and he plans
    and governs ALL HUMAN BEHAVIOR,
    including the murder of Jesus for our
    sakes.”

    Where do you know of Piper saying it differently?

    Liked by 1 person

  48. What do you people believe about the origin of sickness? Do you believe God created it along with the rest of creation? If it resulted from Adam’s fall, is not it’s horrid nature a testimony to and does it not remind us of the horrid nature of sin? Neither you nor anyone you know would suffer a moment of pain or sickness had not sin entered the world.

    Like

  49. A. Amos,

    Read Piper’s “Are there Two Wills in God.” His views are stated very clearly there. That God sovereignly controls all events does not mean he must directly cause them to occur or that he must entice anyone to sin. The Bible makes it clear that he does not sin or tempt anyone to do so. The Bible also makes it clear that he intends and controls even the most heinous sins (think of Gen. 50:20 and Acts 4:27-28, for examples) for his peoples’ good and for his own glory.

    Like

  50. gracewriterrandy,

    What do “you people” believe about the origin of sickness? “You People?” What is that about? Do you think you know more than the people who come here to voice their concerns about the church and those running them?

    I do believe that sickness came because of Adam’s fall. I do not believe that it comes from our personal sin. Our personal sin is between each individual and God.

    I don’t see where you have answered Amos’ questions.

    Liked by 1 person

  51. Randy

    You suggest for me to…
    “Read Piper’s “Are there Two Wills in God.”
    His views are stated very clearly there.”

    So, are you admitting Piper did NOT state his views
    **clearly** in his tweet?

    Seems, Piper did NOT live up to your belief of his responsibility…
    When you write @ FEBRUARY 7, 2015 @ 6:24 AM

    “We have a responsibility to present God’s truth
    as **clearly** and cogently as possible.”

    Since his tweet is different then his book???

    How would I know which one to believe? 😉

    Why do you believe his book and NOT his tweet?

    Liked by 1 person

  52. gracewriter,
    You can also see John Piper speaking on YouTube of his jocularity regarding abuse. Go to YouTube and search John Piper abuse. It shows his true side.

    Liked by 1 person

  53. ” just too theologically or linguistically inept to understand ”

    More grace in your writing and you might live up to your nom de ‘Net, Randy.

    Blessings,
    Tim

    Like

  54. Brenda,

    When I wrote “you people” I was not referring to everyone who posts here; only to the ones who hate the God I worship.

    I don’t think anyone but the Charismatic/Pentecostal types believe that sickness is always the result of personal sin, lack of faith etc. What a cruel religion. It is nevertheless true that some sicknesses are caused (or at least contributed to) by sinful choices we have made (e.g., gluttony and obesity can contribute to diabetes).

    My point was that if you found fault with Piper’s tweet, you must believe sickness resulted from something other than sin.

    I am not sure which of Amos’ questions you think I didn’t answer. Let me know, and I will try to do better.

    Like

  55. I thought I had recognized gracewriterrandy.

    It’s been a while since he’s posted here, but here is what he posted in 2013 directly to me. I think it helps to give a little background about his intentions:

    I don’t regard this as a negative response, but I couldn’t find anywhere else here to post it.Julie Ann,

    I was truly saddened to read about the abuse you suffered at the hands of those you trusted. I was saddened even more to read about your response to that abuse. Whether you believe it our not, the God Calvin worshipped, the God who has revealed himself in the Word of God, hates the abuse you suffered even more than you do. That God has ordained all that occurs in our lives does not mean that he has caused it to occur or that he calls it good.

    It appears to me, you have not understood the choices you have if you are going to believe in God at all. The God you seem to have rejected already is a God who controls all things for the good of his people and who is able to bring ultimate good to his people out of the most horrendous and painful circumstances of life. Your other choice is also a god who was behind the curtain watching the abuse you suffered but who was powerless to do anything about it because it was out of his control. Additionally, this god will not bring any good, whether temporal or eternal, out of evil since he has no control over it. As well-meaning as he may be, he is an impotent bystander whose heart grieves over the fallen creation, but one who has no ability to save believing sinners or damn abusers like those who abused you. This god of yours wanted to help you, but he just couldn’t intervene because he has no control in the universe. In his universe, all is controlled by free will. The God Calvin worshipped is one who has promised to bring judgment on oppressors. I am not even sure how the god you seem to prefer can bring sinners to justice since he doesn’t control anything.

    Liked by 2 people

  56. grace writer,
    You have the same capability to go back and review posts as I do. If you want to answer Amos’ questions, you can do so.

    I do understand that people can help themselves in certain areas of their health, but many have no control at all. What I don’t understand is where people believe that John Piper’s word is gospel. Have you watched the video of his “mission trip”. It was a tribute to John Calvin. John Calvin is seemingly John Piper’s god. If John Piper wanted to help people by going on a “mission trip”, he could have gone into an area where there was a real need. What he did was take a vacation and probably wrote it off on his taxes. I believe this is also on YouTube. Did you look at the one on abuse?

    Liked by 1 person

  57. And Randy

    I know lots of folks like to use the word **clearly**
    When stateing their interpretation of the scriptures.

    But, Today, with thousands of Denominations, Non-Denominations, etc…
    With most saying The Bible is The Word of God…
    And, most disagreeing about something…

    **Clearly,** when the word “Clearly” is used…
    It is *Clear* to me, the only one who can see **Clearly**
    Is the one using the word **Clearly.**

    And everyone else is *Clearly* wrong.

    And, I found this footnote in my Oxford Dictionary…
    For the word **clearly** on my computer.

    “…clearly and its ilk are ‘weasel words’

    clearly
    Exaggerators like this word, along with its cousins ( obviously, undeniably, undoubtedly, and the like). Often a statement prefaced with one of these words is conclusory, and sometimes even exceedingly dubious.

    As a result—though some readers don’t consciously realize it— clearly and its ilk are ‘weasel words’—that is, unnecessary words that supposedly intensify the meaning of a statement, but actually weaken it…
    (Stephen White, The Written Word; 1984.).

    Liked by 1 person

  58. Brenda,

    I don’t care about “Piper’s true side.” I am not discussing anything other than his tweets and JA’s reaction to them. I honestly don’t care what you thing of the man. It is not my job to defend him.

    Re his tweets: to say his views are stated clearly in one place does not imply they were not clearly stated in another. Human responsibility was not the subject of the tweet. What he tweeted was and is true, even is it is not a full statement of everything he believes about the issue. The problem with communicating truth with Twitter is the character limitation (140 characters). One cannot law out everything that needs to be said within those parameters.

    Like

  59. Amos, in court when I hear an attorney use “clearly” or something similar in a legal argument I start to wonder if they couldn’t find legal authority to back the argument up. Sometimes they haven’t.

    Same goes for Christians. If someone tells me, “Clearly Jesus told us to love others,” I can jump to some verses to bolster that statement. A non Christian might wonder why it’s so clear, though, if they have no familiarity with the many places Jesus says it.

    On bogs, when I see a post or comment saying something is clear, unless it’s of the “Jesus loves me” variety, I expect either support for the supposed clarity or that the person not use the word “clearly” so cavalierly.

    Liked by 2 people

  60. “The problem with communicating truth with Twitter is the character limitation (140 characters). One cannot law out everything that needs to be said within those parameters.”

    True words, Randy. And when you have thousands of twitter followers who look to you for spiritual guidance, you either fit sound doctrine into those parameters or you leave it unsaid on Twitter,

    Liked by 3 people

  61. So Randy

    When you say @ FEBRUARY 7, 2015 @ 8:08 AM…

    “The problem with communicating truth with Twitter is the character limitation (140 characters). One cannot law out everything that needs to be said within those parameters.”

    Are you admitting again? Piper did NOT state his views
    **clearly** in his tweet?

    And, Piper did NOT live up to your belief of his responsibility…
    When you write @ FEBRUARY 7, 2015 @ 6:24 AM

    “We have a responsibility to present God’s truth
    as **clearly** and cogently as possible.”

    Since his tweet is different then his book???

    How would **you** know which one to believe? 😉

    Do you just pick and choose the ones you agree with? 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  62. One cannot law out everything that needs to be said within those parameters.

    Piper thinks he’s pretty gifted with words. He posts his poetry, uses flowerly language. The guy has enough brains to articulately share a tweet that stands on its own without needing extra clarification. I think what must be happening is that he believes that all of those hundreds of thousands of people are tracking with his belief system and so they completely understand where he is coming from, so there’s no need for clarification (even though I’ve seen tweets with 40+ responses “say what?”).

    Like I said before, part of Twitter is the interaction between individuals. Piper choose to leave it one sided (for the most part). That says it all for me.

    Like

  63. There is no lack of grace in telling the truth. One only needs to read her comments to see that she is clearly lacking in both areas.

    Aren’t you a ray of sunshine this morning?

    Liked by 2 people

  64. Tim,

    I could have said she is stupid and theologically and biblically ignorant. That may have been an ungracious way to state the truth. Frankly, I can’t think of a more gracious way to state the truth than what I stated. She plainly misunderstood/misrepresented what Piper was saying. I must conclude that either she suffers from theological or linguistic ineptitude, or she is was deliberately attempting to mislead her readers by giving giving the impression that he was saying something other than what he stated.

    Like

  65. Randy

    You write @ FEBRUARY 7, 2015 @ 8:08 AM…
    “I am not discussing anything other than his tweets
    and JA’s reaction to them.”

    NOPE – It’s **clear** to me…
    That you also discussed Pipers book…

    And Pipers failure to be *Clear* when he tweets…

    When you suggest for me @ FEBRUARY 7, 2015 @ 7:18 AM – to…
    “Read Piper’s “Are there Two Wills in God.”
    His views are stated very **clearly** there.”

    Liked by 1 person

  66. I must conclude that either she suffers from theological or linguistic ineptitude, or she is was deliberately attempting to mislead her readers by giving giving the impression that he was saying something other than what he stated.

    It seems you presume to have all the right theological answers, Randy. That’s a lofty place to be.

    Liked by 2 people

  67. Amos,

    I don’t have to “pick which one I will agree with.” I agree with both. There are some biblical texts that speak of Jesus’ true and full humanity and say nothing about his true and full deity. Should we fault the writer because he did not state everything he knew about Jesus in one verse?

    Like

  68. Randy

    Correct me if I’m wrong – BUT…

    We were NOT talking about Jesus…
    We were NOT taking about the Bible…

    We were talking about Piper and his ability
    To say – according to you – Two different things.

    One thing in his book…

    And another in his tweet…

    Are you admitting again? Piper did NOT state his views
    **clearly** in his tweet?

    And, Piper did NOT live up to your belief of his responsibility…
    When you write @ FEBRUARY 7, 2015 @ 6:24 AM

    “We have a responsibility to present God’s truth
    as **clearly** and cogently as possible.”

    Since his tweet is different then his book???

    How would **you** know which one to believe? 😉

    Do you see Piper as both God and Man?

    Liked by 1 person

  69. JA,

    I do not presume to have all the answers. However, I do understand plain English, and can see when you are deliberately twisting a person’s views as an opportunity to vent your bitter spleen. It must be difficult to live with your level of bitterness.

    Like

  70. Randy:

    #1 – Please refrain from personal attacks or you will be in the SSB doghouse.

    #2 – I post Pipers tweets for discussion. I notice the ones that others find confusing (or I find ridiculous) and post them to discuss because his doctrine/teachings have put people in harms way physically and spiritually and I want people to take a look and see how others can be harmed.

    Any man who tells a woman to put up with smacking for a season and believes in the Permanence view of marriage is obviously not following sound doctrine.

    Liked by 2 people

  71. Randy

    Wow… It didn’t take long to pull out the “Bitterness” card.

    A most useful tactic for those who have NOTHING to say.

    Well – Used to be a useful tactic… 🙂

    Now it shows your true colors.

    Liked by 2 people

  72. Amos,

    First, it is not a book. It is only a chapter. Second, what he states is not different from what he stated in the tweet. To state that sinners are responsible does not contradict the statement that God is in sovereign control.

    Your question to me concerned how I know he believes in responsibility. My answer was to refer you to the article. I suppose he could have written something other than what he truly believes if he is as evil as some of you believe he is.

    It seems to me that he is tweeting these statements for the edification of those who follow him and understand his theology. If he and others who tweet are culpable, perhaps it is in disobeying Jesus’ command, “Don’t cast your pearls before swine.”

    Like

  73. Randy

    I lovingly and winsomely ask you…
    “Perhaps you are just too theologically or linguistically inept”

    To keep this discussion alive?

    Without resorting to personal attacks?

    Maybe you could apologise to Julie Anne?

    Liked by 2 people

  74. Randy, you stated: It seems to me that he is tweeting these statements for the edification of those who follow him and understand his theology.

    Herein lies a huge problem. We are not to follow man, we are to follow Christ. People, such as yourself, follow John Piper. John Piper follows John Calvin. Oh no, that’s not quite right John Piper added 2 petals to the TULIP.

    Liked by 3 people

  75. It is not a personal attack. It is just an observation. Any objective observer of this blog could see it is born of bitterness.

    Frankly, there are several areas in which I would disagree with Piper. To insinuate that I view him as God is to me a personal attack. If you don’t like him, that is your business. To attack and ridicule him in a public forum by misrepresenting his views is unconscionable.

    JA,

    There are only two options I have to choose from since you missed so completely the points he was making: 1. Either you didn’t understand what he meant or 2. You deliberately misrepresented him. Which was it?

    Like

  76. JA,
    In Piper’s “mission trip” video I believe the name Calvin was said far more often than the name of Jesus. Jesus was an after thought. Listening to it made me sad to know how many hang on his every word.

    Liked by 1 person

  77. Randy, you say that sin and disease are not inconsistent with God’s sovereignty. I agree. Jesus is the eternal king of heaven and earth.

    Piper didn’t tweet that though, He tweeted: “The ugliness and desperation of every disease is meant by God to show us the ugliness and desperation of our sin.”

    The Bible nowhere teaches such nonsense. We know God has not yet wiped out the ugliness and desperation of disease, and that certainly has the effect of showing us that sin is also ugly and desperate. But when Mr. Piper says that is what God “meant” disease to do he misses the mark because it strongly suggests that God intended disease to enter creation. That is not at all what the Bible teaches, and it rests on a mistaken understanding of the doctrine of sovereignty.

    Blessings,
    Tim

    Liked by 1 person

  78. “Surely you are bright enough to understand that.”

    See Randy, that’s what a people call a personal attack. You go after someone’s intelligence instead of their ideas born of that intelligence. Surely you understand that?

    (And notice I didn’t question your intellectual ability to understand that. Big difference. Now please play nice.)

    Liked by 2 people

  79. Tim,

    If you wish to debate about God’s sovereignty and what God intended, I will be happy to do that in another forum. I am soon to be outta here like the fat kid in dodgeball. I would suggest you read Piper’s article before we debate further. Much comes down to what one means by “intends.”

    Like

  80. ” I would suggest you read Piper’s article before we debate further.”

    I would if I were concerned with what he said in his article. I’m only concerned, though, with what he said in his tweet. It’s bad doctrine and should be deleted.

    To paraphrase an aphorism about saying nice things that we all learned when young: If you can’t clearly tweet sound doctrine, don’t tweet doctrine at all.

    Liked by 1 person

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