Courtship, Parenting

Questions for Dads to Ask Young Men Who are Interested in Their Daughter

Julie Anne

 ***

Questions for dads to ask young men who are interested in their daughter

 ***medium_5372081748

***

This was posted on Todd Friel’s Wretched Facebook page and is entitled:

Not Rude Questions for a Young Man by Robert Bowen and Todd Friel

We are not barbarians.  Dads should not threaten a potential suitor with a fire-arm.  At least not a loaded fire-arm.  But that doesn’t mean a Dad shouldn’t put the young man on the hot seat.

Below are some questions that may help you determine if a young man will have access to your daughter.  Your mileage may vary.  Start with #30.

  1. Share your salvation testimony.
  2. What is the Gospel.
  3. Share the most recent Bible verse you have memorized.
  4. Can you recite all 66 books of the Bible in order? Try.
  5. How often do you read your Bible?
  6. When was the last time you read your Bible?
  7. Tell me about your participation in your local church.
  8. Can you recite the Nicene Creed for me?
  9. If you are a virgin, why? If you are not a virgin, tell me what you have learned.
  10. Tell me everything you know about the Protestant Reformation.
  11. What is your approach to protect your sexual purity as well as my child’s?
  12. What Scripture verses guide your interactions with the opposite sex?

Please see the rest of the questions here.

 

***

What do you think?  Are these the most important questions to ask? Do you think these questions are appropriate?  Are there any questions they left out?

 

 

photo credit: ARACELOTA via photopin cc

205 thoughts on “Questions for Dads to Ask Young Men Who are Interested in Their Daughter”

  2. While I welcome anyone commenting here (I truly do), I want to be careful that our strong opinions and beliefs (religious or otherwise) do not impose on someone else’s. Speaking to the Christians – we each are responsible to be good Bereans and test teachings with Scripture, ask the Holy Spirit’s guidance, etc.

    Like

  3. Right, Brenda. You mean free will as in, “Believe in me, do what I say (as per the bible’s instructions) or FRY forever?”

    Daisy, you are an intelligent, passionate woman. Figure it out.

    Like

  5. @Brenda:

    There is no way this can end well.

    HUG,
    No, it doesn’t end well. Without going into details, after 6 years then came the divorce.

    As in you went through it for real?

    Like

  6. Carmen –

    I value you and what you contribute to the blog. I think you know that. You have common sense and discernment and Christians could learn a lot from you. I’ve always admired that about you. But please be careful to not challenge my readers on their faith because you don’t share the same faith.

    Like

  8. Hey JA – isn’t that what faith is all about?? It shouldn’t matter what I say. .. you either have it or you don’t. But I hear ya!! 🙂

    Like

  10. Thanks Julie Ann hope all is well, I may well be wrong but it seems to be Robert Bowen and Todd Friel are gnostics, no offense to true gnostics. Of course I could be wrong. Hope all have a nice evening.

    Like

  11. ” haven’t been to Challies site in a long time, but he was on a roll for months it seemed. You would think our churches are filled with sex addicts.”

    I have to agree, I searched some of these blogs to see if any of them posted about the “Witch Children of Africa”. Nada, I guess parents pounding nails in the back of the head of their kids head is not as big a deal as if some guy thinks impure thoughts.

    Like

  13. They think what they, or in some cases who they know makes them followers of Christ. Its sort of a neo Gnostic. Its all about the right answers, right doctrines alone.

    Like

  14. Have you noticed how it’s always the dad interrogating his daughter’s suitors? Do parents of sons have standards for their future daughter-in-law?

    Like

  16. It was either Thomas Umstattd or blogger Brett McKay in his Art of Manliness book who described the traditional dating era as being preceded by the “calling” era around the turn of the 20th century. A young man who was interested in a young lady had to come visit her at home; the difference between that and the modern iteration of courtship was that the calling scene was controlled by the young single women and their *mothers*, not the fathers. That changed in the 1920s when masses of people moved to the big cities for work, and dating emerged as a more practical alternative.

    Like

  17. Oops, have to take that back; it was Kathleen Bogle in her book Hooking Up: Sex, Dating, and Relationships on Campus. It’s one of the books on the rise of the hookup culture that supplanted dating during high school and college.

    Like

  18. So here is my problem with these questions. They draw lines God did not. The only thing a Christian would need to know is Christ and His law- who cares about that other crap. Knowing more than ” I am a sinner that needs to be save and what must I do to be saved “isn’t shown in the Bible. We become Pharisees ourselves adding to God’s word if we require more.

    Like

  20. This is off topic, but…

    Has anybody else been to Libby Anne’s blog on Patheos today? That latest post on Mark Driscoll’s William Wallace II days had me laughing so hard I was crying.

    This being one of Driscoll’s ancient posts, it is rather crude. But darn funny. If I’d been a Mars Hill member posting on that forum back in the day, I think I would have teased him mercilessly about it.

    Like

  22. I didn’t read that one carefully because I had already read the original article from which her info came at Wenatchee the Hatchet. MD is a perv. Feel free to post links.

    Like

  24. Exactly. I just heard that Sarah Maxwell’s (Steve and Teri Maxwell of titus2.com) younger brother got married over the weekend – that makes 3 brothers married off in that family and no sisters. I’m pretty sure she’s in her 30s.

    Like

  25. I saw this comment scrolling up (from the bottom up)
    Carmen said,

    Daisy, remember – god (if you believe in s/he/it) gave you the libido, too.
    Just sayin’. ..

    Carmen, thank you for your comments. I also saw another comment you had for me above.

    Yes, I sure do have a libido. I’m a virgin over age 40. Many Christians confuse adult celibate or virgin with “asexual.”

    Since childhood, I believed in the Christian teaching that sex was for marriage only, and the Bible teaches this, so I waited to get married. I was engaged, but it fell through and am still single.

    Thank you for recognizing I have a libido. Most Christian sources assume anyone still single, or a virgin past 30, has “the gift of singleness,” (or “the gift of celibacy”) which they construe to mean ‘God removed all your sexual desire.’

    Preacher Mark Driscoll is one of many preachers I’ve seen who assume this (he mentioned it on one of his blogs).

    I am appalled by how Christians diminish my efforts at staying sexually pure by thinking or teaching I have made it this long without sex because God waved a magic wand and stripped me of all desire or gave me some special grace to deal with it. That is false, the desire is still there. I simply have will power. I have stayed a virgin due to will power, not God removing my libido, or making it easier to deal with.

    I can’t say as though I’m entirely Christian anymore, but I’m not totally agnostic. I am questioning a lot of things I was raised to believe, including the Christian faith.

    I do think the Bible forbids fornication, which includes un-married people having sex, and which is defined as being a sin. So I was baffled by a guy above who said premarital sex is not a sin, when I think the Bible is pretty clear that, oh, yes, it sure is.

    Despite that. I’m tired of waiting to get married, and I’m tired of waiting to get married to have sex.

    If and when I get a steady boyfriend (I am not quite there yet, I have some things in my life to square away beforehand), I am ready and willing to have sex prior to marriage.

    I will not, however, have “casual sex” with one-night-stand guys, or a billion men per month. But even finding a steady boyfriend these days is hard. It’s hard to meet decent single men one’s age. The dating sites are filled with weirdos and pervs.

    Even though I am considering premarital sex, I do not deny that the Bible frowns on that activity.

    Just because someone experiences sexual desire does not mean one has to act upon it, however. I recognize that fact, but a lot of Christians do not any more these days, and most of secular culture is out to lunch on that one, too.

    Like

  26. For those above discussing the latest on Driscoll.
    I think they mean this (Julie Anne, as I’m not sure if you’re comfortable with the “P” word on your blog (part of the male anatomy), I’ve somewhat censored it in the link below… but the “P” word is at the center of the latest Driscoll uproar, so it’s kinda hard to leave it out when discussing this):

    Pastor Mark Driscoll Called Women ‘P-nis Homes’
    (on Time magazine’s site- they are linking to the Patheos page)

    Like

  27. Scott, thank you I guess, but I don’t understand,
    “He may not be exactly perfect to your long, long list but he is out there.”

    I wouldn’t say I have a long list.

    I used to have a list of about ten items, pretty basic, in my 20s, with some points on the list being
    1. must be college educated
    2. must be a Christian

    And I forget the rest. I could maybe think of some more if I sat and concentrated some more, but I don’t feel like it. The dude I was engaged to failed all my list, except for one – he claimed to be a Christian. I totally threw away my list for that guy, I only required the “must be a Christian” part.

    Now that I’m older, I see that as being a mistake. I should stick to what I prefer in a guy. By dismissing the other 9 points, I thought I was being loving and less judgmental, but I was miserable with that guy, in part because he was not right for me.

    Like

  29. Nicola said,

    Have you noticed how it’s always the dad interrogating his daughter’s suitors? Do parents of sons have standards for their future daughter-in-law?

    That is a good point, and I’ve sometimes wondered why the families who are into “purity balls” always have daughters pledging their virginity to their fathers.

    Not that I think any kid should be pledging their virginity to a parental figure (the very existence of something like a purity ball makes me want to throw up), but I ask because, if these guys are going to be consistent about this stuff, why aren’t they having the sons pledge the son’s virginity to their mothers?

    Or why can’t the daughter promise to her mother she will wait until the marriage?

    Or, why can’t they have the sons and daughters do some kind of ceremony where they pledge their virginity to God?

    Like

  30. NJ said,

    Has anybody else been to Libby Anne’s blog on Patheos today? That latest post on Mark Driscoll’s William Wallace II days had me laughing so hard I was crying.

    My reaction to that Driscoll post, and like most things Driscoll says or writes, was like the Yao Ming meme (not the “b—- please” one, but the “I’m grossed out/ repulsed” face).

    If you don’t know what that is, you can click this link to view it:
    Yao Ming “gross” face
    (link is to meme generator page with image I’m talking about)

    Liked by 1 person

  31. I missed Scott’s comment, Daisy, and I agree that it is unfair. I have never seen you asking for a wealthy, jet setting man who looks like George Clooney or anything like that. The older one gets, though, the harder it is to meet someone, and there is no sense in marrying someone who has some kind of personality problem or addiction or who doesn’t have good values. It doesn’t have to be a long list, but you have to have a list.

    I hope you meet someone wonderful.

    Like

  32. Miss Daisy –

    Your reaction mirrors my own. Nothing funny about those comments at all. That creep is a misogynist, plain and simple.

    Like

  33. I am against any and all sexual purity ceremonies, oaths, pledges, and rings! They don’t work. Studies show that youth who have made such a pledge are no less likely to be sexually active than other teens, they just do things other than intercourse (and that are not a good intro to sex).

    We live in a society which combines titillating sexual content with Puritan attitudes in a highly dysfunctional way. In my opinion, parents need to educate their children about sex, in an age appropriate way, and talk about the reasons for waiting for marriage. And they also need to tell them that if they choose not to wait they need to protect themselves from disease and unwanted pregnancy, that there is time to do that and that it is not less sinful to be ‘carried away by passion’ than to behave responsibly. And for heaven’s sake, do not carry on about masturbation! We expect people to be celibate for a decade or more after puberty.

    Like

  34. Oh and as someone who taught young people in college, there is nothing that irritates me more than fathers who abrogate their responsibility to educate sons about sex by saying “No point in talking about the birds and bees to young men these days; you probably know more than I do,” wink, wink, nudge, nudge.” No they don’t know it all.

    Like

  35. Julie Anne said (and thank you for fixing my HTML blunder above with the messed up blockquote tag!)

    I don’t care if someone types penis on my blog as long as it fits the topic of discussion.

    OK. I’ve seen some Christians over my life time who blush over that word, or who consider is a sort of cuss word, which is why I asked. It’s definitely at the center of the latest Mark Driscoll controversy.

    Someone at another blog wondered why Driscoll referred to a penis as “God’s penis” but not a woman’s personal anatomy as “God’s vagina,” which was a fairly decent point. Even in getting crude, Driscoll is still rather sexist.

    Anyway, I don’t think I like being thought of in terms of a “penis home”. I gather Driscoll’s point was to get the slacker single men to stop fornicating and/or to marry rather than dawdle and sew wild oats, which are not altogether bad goals, but he sure didn’t word things in a good way.

    Like

  36. @ Marsha

    I missed Scott’s comment, Daisy, and I agree that it is unfair. I have never seen you asking for a wealthy, jet setting man who looks like George Clooney or anything like that. The older one gets, though, the harder it is to meet someone, and there is no sense in marrying someone who has some kind of personality problem or addiction or who doesn’t have good values. It doesn’t have to be a long list, but you have to have a list.

    I hope you meet someone wonderful.

    Thank you, Marsha, especially for the part about hoping I meet someone wonderful.

    Yes, it gets more and more difficult to meet single guys around one’s age the older one gets.

    I was willing to marry a “Mr. Average”. I wasn’t expecting a male model, multi millionaire. (My ex fiance was below Mr. Average levels in looks and intelligence, was constantly in and out of jobs, and came to me for money all the time.) Also, for years, I had terribly low self esteem and did not feel worthy of a Mr. George Clooney, good looking and successful guy.

    I don’t expect perfection in a suitor, but I don’t want a morbidly obese, constantly broke, guy who wears a pair of overalls who sits in his mom’s basement all day collecting Star Trek figurines.

    Sadly, a lot of Christians will try to fix up an average, to above average, smart/ funny/ slender/ attractive single woman with a middle aged, morbidly obese, weird guy like that.

    We single ladies are supposed to be thrilled at the opportunity to date a guy that these people would not want their own daughter dating / marrying. It’s more apt to happen if you’re a single Christian woman and the socially awkward Spock- and- Kirk- doll collector guy is a Christian single man.

    Single Christian ladies are told all two people need in common for dating and marriage is Jesus. Ha ha ha, NO.
    (Pictorial illustration of this at work, hosted on “Funny Junk” site:     “Ha Ha No” cat photos)

    I’ve noticed that single women are always told to “lower their standards” and “stop being picky,” but unmarried men are not told this, and are actually encouraged to feel entitled to women who are “out of their league.”

    Christian preachers re enforce this idea in their marriage sermons and blogs when they don’t say a peep to men about “go to the gym and work out and diet, because your wife or single ladies would appreciate it,” but they constantly tell women things like, “Ladies, men are visual, so, ladies, work out regularly, eat tofu and carrots,” etc.

    Hey, I’m visual too, and I’m a woman. I like a guy who’s in shape, and I prefer a full head of hair.

    I seldom see Christian preachers (or other Christians) tell middle aged, balding, over weight Christian men to stop insisting on marrying a slender, movie- star- look- alike who is the age of 20 to 35. They just keep lecturing all women to keep dieting and exercising to keep looking like they are 25 year old movie stars, even in their 40s and beyond. And there are a lot of Christian men who are just as picky and shallow about age and looks as Non Christian men that need to hear those comments.

    Anyway, I do have some criteria when it comes to dating and romance. I have a sister who dates anything that breathes, and that has not worked out well for her. There is such a thing as setting the bar too low.

    Like

  37. Daisy,

    I was one who had to get over saying/typing the word: penis, penis, penis, penis. I think I’m over it now 😉

    It was just one of those fundy hangups.

    Like

  38. This is Todd Friel debating a liberal talk show host on various social issues. He is often regarded as a great debater, but I suspect that reputation applies only in the conservative Reformed bubble. Once he gets out and tries in his own way to engage those outside the bubble, he gets killed, so he can only resort to snarks. Logical fallacies galore.

    Like

  39. Pingback: Wednesday Link List | Thinking Out Loud
  40. Pingback: Wednesday Hyperlink Record | Posts

  41. I can understand some of the objections to some of the questions, but let’s try a hypothesis on for size; a man will see some things in another man that a woman will not, simply because he knows the ways of other men in a way women cannot.

    And if that is true, wouldn’t we, on average, expect that a woman might want to have another man’s opinion on the man she might marry? Or a man the opinion of another woman?

    Really, what these questions are about is to determine whether a young man is actually in church, or whether he’s simply keeping twelve to 18 inches of pew warm. In my life–I’ve got four daughters–I think I’d ask a few more questions about what he does with his time, what his career plans are, what his favorite classes are, and the like–but I’d hope we wouldn’t totally discard the concept of parental involvement in the dating/courting process of finding a mate.

    Like

  42. Well, Bike bubba – we had absolutely NO involvement in the process of our three daughters and one son finding a mate. We brought them up to make sensible decisions as adults; it worked.

    Like

  43. Bike bubba,

    You mentioned having the opinion of a woman, but I’m not seeing it. Where does your daughter fit in this process of her own marriage? Also, I don’t see your wife. Does her opinion count?

    Like

  45. “We brought them up to make sensible decisions as adults; it worked.”

    Yeah, raising kids (especially daughters) to BE adults one day is not real popular in the fundy/evangelical world. My advice to parents during those dating years they are living at home is to befriend the potential suitors. It always worked to put me off the jerks. :o)

    Like

  47. (Pictorial illustration of this at work, hosted on “Funny Junk” site: “Ha Ha No” cat photos)

    THAT is one adorable-cute kitten.

    Like

  48. @Daisy:

    I don’t expect perfection in a suitor, but I don’t want a morbidly obese, constantly broke, guy who wears a pair of overalls who sits in his mom’s basement all day collecting Star Trek figurines.

    I knew a guy who had a neighbor almost exactly like that. Except he wasn’t in Mommy’s basement — at least not directly; he was a Trust Fund Kiddie. Other than that, exact match.

    Sadly, a lot of Christians will try to fix up an average, to above average, smart/ funny/ slender/ attractive single woman with a middle aged, morbidly obese, weird guy like that.

    We single ladies are supposed to be thrilled at the opportunity to date a guy that these people would not want their own daughter dating / marrying. It’s more apt to happen if you’re a single Christian woman and the socially awkward Spock- and- Kirk- doll collector guy is a Christian single man.

    Daisy, ever figured that to them that is a feature, not a bug?

    Because if they marry YOU off to Unbathed Spheroid Trekkie, then he won’t be hitting on THEIR daughters.

    And since Unbathed Spheroid Trekkie is CHRISTIAN(TM), It’s BIBLICAL; you’re “EQUALLY YOKED(TM)”. (At least until you get into his laptop and find not only is he collecting Kirk and Spock figurines, he’s writing Slashfic about them…_

    Like

  49. @Daisy:

    I seldom see Christian preachers (or other Christians) tell middle aged, balding, over weight Christian men to stop insisting on marrying a slender, movie- star- look- alike who is the age of 20 to 35.

    Because CELEBRITY Preacher is already married to a supermodel look-alike (with silicone and hair enhancements) who (after the latest round of surgeries) LOOKS 20 to 35.

    (That’s only half-joking. Have you SEEN Televangelist/Mega-pastor Wives in Christianese Media?)

    Like

  50. @Marsha:

    Studies show that youth who have made such a pledge are no less likely to be sexually active than other teens, they just do things other than intercourse (and that are not a good intro to sex).

    Last week, a guy I know came across a YouTube video of a satirical song called “Loophole” and started asking me about some of the background details in it — like Purity Rings and Purity Balls and “keeping an aspirin between your knees”.

    From his description of the song, I didn’t dare go to it. But it should pop up when you search YouTube on “Loophole Song”; I think it’s by a “Garfunkel and Oates”:

    It’s sung from the POV of a Christian Purity Culture girl; she’s expected to stay Virgin Unto Death (or at least Virgin Unto Wedding Night), not even a kiss, yet all the Christianese Purity Culture boys at her church demand she puts out first. (Woman, Submit! and all that.) If she doesn’t put out, no Christian Purity Culture boy will EVER marry her. (Remember Salvation by Marriage Alone and the resulting insane pressure to marry by 18?)

    So she finds a loophole, the subject of the song. One of Marky-Mark Driscoll’s favorite “holes” actually. Since anal sex keeps the hymen intact, she’s still a VIRGIN(TM), and since anal is never forbidden in so many words in Leviticus….

    My informant told me the song was based on reality. Supporting this claim is an online slang dictionary entry I read years ago: “Christian Side Hug: Non-genital sex done to preserve technical virginity.”

    Like

  51. P.S. Just found an online lyrics sheet for the above song “Loophole”.

    NSFW on steroids.
    Very graphic, and hilarious if you have a CRUDE sense of humor.
    Kind of like something out of South Park — don’t know how much is “Funny because it’s Crude” and how much is “Funny because it’s True”.

    Like

  52. Julie Anne, I was figuring that I would refrain from writing a post-length comment, ya know! :^)

    To the question of how other men and women ought to be involved in courtship, yes, both mother and father ought to be involved, and from my own experience, it’s (a la the friends in Song of Songs) helpful if male and female friends are involved, too. Mrs. Bubba and I both had opposite sex (and same sex) friends and relatives encouraging and guiding us, and it made a huge difference.

    To put it bluntly, young love often tries to make up in ardor for what is lacking in good sense, and while (e.g. Carmen’s comment, others) many do manage to contract good marriages without the guidance of peers and relatives, many more end up in a self-imposed Hell because they followed their lusts/hormones/glands instead of choosing a suitable mate. I worked with a LOT of them in my former job.

    And no, courtship ain’t perfect–there are those who would drive horribly unequal marriage contracts, as some have noted–but all in all, I’d suggest that a key point in courtship (which can occur via dates) is that one at least listens to the guidance of others. It’s in Proverbs, ya know?

    Like

  53. Well, Bubba, speaking of guidance, I’ll take the Kama Sutra over Proverbs any old day!
    And, just so you know, I’ve been married for 37 years. . wink!

    Like

  54. Well, take a look at sections 5, 6, and 7, then, and tell me how it goes over.

    (for the uninitiated, section 5 is basically about adultery, six is about prostitution, and seven is about other occult practices….a spouse that tolerates their spouse’s application of these sections of the Kama Sutra is, shall we say, on the fringe of human sexuality)

    Seems to me that there is more to life than sex, especially sex forbidden by the Scriptures, and that is one of many reasons I prefer Proverbs to the Kama Sutra.

    Like

  55. Geez, Bubba – more to life than SEX??? You gotta be kidding me. . .:)
    . . . and try not to fall off that horse of yours!

    Like

  58. Carmen, yes, there is more to life than sex, which is part of why our hostess put up a “Spiritual Sounding Board.” Even the friskiest of us must spend the majority of our time doing something else, and sex doesn’t get you to Heaven, as much as it may seem that way at the time. Which, again, is yet another great reason why Proverbs is more relevant than the Kama Sutra.

    And, relevant to the topic, it’s worth noting that the country that gave us the Kama Sutra is also well known for arranged marriages. Like I said, marriages tend to be happier when those contracting the marriages have some outside guidance.

    Like

  60. Well darn it – sex won’t get me to heaven? Since I don’t believe in it, I’m not too concerned. Heaven, that is.

    Here’s the irony to this little conversation, Bubba. I have never read the Kama Sutra. I saw it in someone’s house about 20 years ago, picked it up and leafed through it, then replaced it with a beet-red face. Interesting that the heathen HASN’T read it but the believer knows about specific chapters, eh?

    I don’t know about you, but I don’t think there’s anyone who knows how to create a foolproof ‘happy, happy, joy, joy’ marriage. Ya just take yer chances, Bubba. Some get ’em, some don’t.

    Like

  62. Carmen; I had to look it up. Wikipedia. But that said, it’s good to understand a culture other than your own, especially if someone is going to tell you that they revere culture X. Nice to know a touch of what’s in there, even if the first half is the fast way to get yourself hurt (just like Cosmo’s “372 new positions guaranteed to throw out your back”), and the second half is the quick way to earn a divorce petition.

    Which is, really, what was going on with the link BeenThereDoneThat provided. You cheat on your fiance, you will end up with her disapproval in marriage. Sadly the wrong person died.

    So yes, you cannot choose your results–people sin–but you can to a degree choose your odds, and one key thing in choosing your odds is, per Proverbs 15:22 and elsewhere, getting other advisors.

    So let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater–your kids’ success in finding mates is partially the result of your parenting, no? We can quail at some of these questions without discarding the general principle.

    Like

  63. Bubba, I still think there’s a fundamental difference in our opinions. It sounds to me like you agree parents should be involved in ‘courtship’. That word would never have been discussed in our home – our children were brought up to have a healthy regard for relationships, which included sensible sex education. (Which they rec’d in public school and more ‘talks’ from us, as parents).

    This whole ‘courtship’ thing, I feel, removes autonomy from young adults – and puts parents in control. I am opposed to this completely. As I said earlier, our emphasis in our kids’ upbringing was teaching them the skills they needed to choose wisely in all areas of life and they were encouraged to do just that. The goal, as I have stated before on other topics, is for young adults to be able to think for themselves – even if they make a few mistakes. After all, that’s how we all learn. Note that I call them MISTAKES, not sins. Much too strong a word and too much baggage attached to that word.

    Like

  64. Carmen, there definitely is a disagreement between us when you say mistakes and not sins, but not as much about courtship. Legally and Biblically, not a whole lot I can do about it if one of my children decides to run off with ….whatever.

    But I do want to guide them and warn them. Sensible sex ed–sure–let ’em know that most single people have an STD, and condoms don’t stop them except for HIV. Let them know that certain superficially attractive people are going nowhere in life, etc.. Remind them that there are some big differences in worldview between them.

    Like

  65. Not sure where you get the idea that most single people have an STD. My daughter is a licensed Midwife and I’ve never heard that! Plus, I have taught PDR (Physical Development and Relationships) before and certainly have never run across that little gem. We obviously don’t read the same publications. . got a link for that?

    Like

  68. Much to my astonishment, he is right if you include the human papilloma virus. According to the CDC in 2013, 110 million people in the US have an STI and 79 million of those have HPV.

    I am old. I remember when they were called venereal diseases.

    Like

  69. Brenda, here in Canada we’ve referred to them as STI’s for quite some time. I have never heard that statement before – that most single people have one. The only stats I could find (for Canada) suggest that the percentage of people contracting them has risen since the late 90’s. All the more reason to inform young people about protection.

    Like

  71. “My daughter is a licensed Midwife and I’ve never heard that!”

    Not to change the subject, but . . .
    carmen, that’s interesting. How does that work in Canada? In Texas we have Certified Nurse Midwives and Certified Professional Midwives. The CPMs must past state exams to be licensed to practice midwifery here, but have no nursing degree. We had all of our kids with CPMs. Loved them.

    Like

  72. “I am old. I remember when they were called venereal diseases.”

    I guess I’m old, too, then. VD it was, back in the day. lol

    Like

  73. BTDT – she took a four-year course at University, which included a two and a half year practicum (specific focuses at several different healthcare facilities); she does not have a nursing degree. Actually, she is not practicing right now as she’s raising a family, but she’s active in the Midwifery Association and is on the local Health Board.

    Like

  75. I’d be more inclined to say that you have a soft spot in your heart PERIOD, BTDT. 🙂 Hope all’s well with you and your awesome family!

    Like

  77. Carmen,

    Abstinance is the only real prevention. I read AARP from time to time. It seems the elderly are spreading around diseases at a much higher rate these days as well. So watch out for the old guy in the nursing home.

    Like

  80. Brenda, “abstinence is the only prevention”. EXCEPT it doesn’t work. Read the stats, Brenda. Sensible, current, information about human sexuality is a much better tool.

    Like

  81. Carmen, I agree the “Sensible, current, information about human sexuality” should be made available, but abstinence should not be avoided in the conversation. The only sex education I had, besides for what my step father showed me, was the 5th grade film for girls and had no idea what they were talking about. That subject just didn’t get talked about in the house I grew up in. I was much more proactive with my kids, but let them know that abstinenece was the best choice.

    Like

  82. Brenda, I have taught PDR at both the Gr. 7 & 9 levels. You know why we don’t teach abstinence? Because there might be a kid in the class who has been sexually abused. Imagine being that student, sitting there with their horrible secret, and then being told (by another person in a power position) that you shouldn’t do that – that’s it’s wrong. How do you think that child feels? I can only imagine.

    Like

  83. Carmen, I was the kid who was being sexually abused. I still believe abstinence should be taught. With that abused child in mind, the topics of rape and incest being a shame on the abuser and not the one abused could happen before hand. Offering assistance to those that has happened to would be a good thing. It was a horrible secret and wish that someone would have given me that opportunity for someone to say I can help you.

    Like

  84. Brenda, I am so sorry that happened to you. It was NOT your fault. Be assured that there are many, many supports in public school for students in this situation. The thing is, much of this happens behind the scenes, to keep students from being identified and ostracized. Teachers and guidance counsellors do not talk about these things – they are valuable supporters, though, and have tough jobs – they’re our unsung heroes. Their goal is always to empower the student and make sure they are connected to the proper channels of assistance. Again, Brenda, I wish your experience had not happened. I cannot write on this blog about what I’d like to do to people who take advantage of kids – our moderator would not like to see tht kind of language in print. (although she’d probably agree with my suggestions)

    Like

  85. carmen, you are always free to e-mail me the unedited version of what you’d like to do to people who take advantage of kids. Who knows, you might get an equally colorful response from me. Yes, it gets to me, too!

    Like

  86. I feel the bile rising in my throat.

    Hugs to you, Brenda. I’m so, so sorry someone violated and disrespected you like that.

    Like

  87. Carmen, It was a long time ago. I am a strong advocate against all forms of abuse and pedophilia. I really feel like God uses our experiences so that he can use us later on. It took me a long time to get that, but now it is becoming my new reality. I sent JA my version of what I would do to child molesters. I did put it on another blog before, but it didn’t make it through moderation.

    BTDT, I appreciate any and all hugs. Thank you and I will be giving you one right back. (((((HUGS)))))

    Like

  88. Carmen, regarding about most sexually active single people having an STI, it’s just math. CDC estimates 110 million or so adults are in this category. Half of adults are married, 70% of those faithful to their spouse, that’s the first eighty million. You take some people who are single but celibate–say 20 million–and that leaves about thirty million promiscuous married people and ~100 million sexually active singles in the risk pool.

    In other words, something like 11/13 of sexually promiscuous people have had, or have, an STI. It’s like playing roulette with five of six chambers loaded, really, and the CDC has started telling youth that STIs are more or less something to be expected.

    And why wouldn’t a midwife know this? Well, I’d guess that she’d predominantly be dealing with people whose partners are a bit more dependable, no? It’s an eminently excusable thing not to know, especially since most of our government agencies are telling us that those rubber things will keep us safe from everything.

    Brenda, my condolences, and….I remember from way back when I was dating a law student, and the subject came up, and she noted that if the memory of the abuse of a child is repressed, the statute of limitations often starts when the memory is recovered, not at the commission of the crime. So if this is your case, you might chat up a lawyer and maybe get some justice in the matter.

    Like

  89. “And why wouldn’t a midwife know this?”

    Perhaps because this midwife practices in Canada, and you are quoting CDC statistics from the U.S.?

    Like

  90. Brenda, I am with you. I think abstinence AND demystifying sex with education is the appropriate way to approach it. With a big healthy dose of a girls value and those who devalue her are evil.

    “Brenda, I have taught PDR at both the Gr. 7 & 9 levels. You know why we don’t teach abstinence? Because there might be a kid in the class who has been sexually abused. Imagine being that student, sitting there with their horrible secret, and then being told (by another person in a power position) that you shouldn’t do that – that’s it’s wrong. How do you think that child feels? I can only imagine.”

    I think that is all the more reason to teach it. In fact, I think this must be mentioned when teaching sex ed. If someone has improperly touched you they are evil and have devalued you because YOU are valuable. And the law sees them as criminals. and that evil person needs to be punished for doing that to you because you are so valuable. Even if it is dad or granddad. You have to tell someone because it is criminal and you are valuable. (Of course age appropriate discussion, of course).

    I cannot emphasize the “value” enough. Seriously. I think that part is sorely missing when teaching sex ed.

    Like

  91. I fully endorse some versions of abstinence education–starting with those CDC statistics I mentioned. That said, I remember learning while setting up a molestation prevention program at a church I used to attend that something like 25% of girls and something like 16% of boys are molested, generally but not always by a male. Now the specific crime and the young person’s response to it varies, of course–it’s everything from an inappropriate touch or display to forcible rape, and responses are everything from “that was weird” to suicide. I personally had a babysitter–who was being molested in a fairly significant way at the time–drop his trousers and give my brother and I an impromptu “sex ed” lesson. I wasn’t even touched, but suffice it to say we got a new babysitter, and the local elementary school lost a couple of teachers.

    So definitely let kids know that if they’ve been molested, that it’s not reflective of them, because they are off limits. I was in the less victimized, “that was weird” group, thankfully, but not everybody is there.

    Like

  92. Bike Bubba,
    I have to say, the “that was weird” group is still nothing to desire.
    I’m sorry you experienced that.

    Like

  93. Nothing to desire, yes, but the good side is that when I realized (at about age 32) what had happened, it motivated me to take action at my church, and my motivation didn’t really scar me for life. Sure beats the….tar…out of the emotional, physical, and medical trauma of rape, or for that matter the molestation my babysitter endured.

    Enjoyed the comment about another possible difference for the midwife is that she’s in Canada, BTW. Hopefully it is true that our neighbors to the north have not made life’s most delightful physical act into as much an opportunity for infection as we have in our country.

    Like

  94. Carmen,
    With Julie Anne’s permission I will tell you what I would do to a child abuser.

    I would hang them by their testicles with a rusty hook. Whatever happens to them from there, I truly do not care.

    Bubba,
    Thank you so much for your concern, but the stepfather died about 4 years ago. I am reasonably certain that justice is being served. I never forgot what happened to me. I was trained very well, not to speak.

    Like

  95. Geez Brenda, I have a much more vivid imagination than you! I think we’re on the same page, though. I’m glad you triumphed – it says a lot about your (fine) character. I can tell you are a woman of integrity. xx

    Like

  96. Lydia, I agree with you. I doubt that a persons value is ever brought into the discussion in sex ed and incest and rape are debilitating. Once your value has been diminished, you don’t believe you deserve any better. There is so much more that kids should be taught than how pregnancy occurs, how not to get pregnant or prevention of STI/STD or plain old fashion venereal diseases. Sex is a beautiful gift and should be treated as such.

    Like

  97. Bubba,
    I’m thankful that you were only in the “that was weird” group. I would be even more thankful if that group didn’t exist along with the others.

    Like

  99. “the good side is that when I realized (at about age 32) what had happened, it motivated me to take action at my church”

    I am so grateful that you did that. Too many churches don’t realize the necessity of protecting their children. Some want to pretend the issue doesn’t exist. So, thank you.

    On the courtship issue, my engagement and marriage more closely resembled a betrothal model. While I got a wonderful man (he loves me, loves our kids, and works hard to take care of us), I think I just lucked out. I would never recommend it. But then, I’ve just had some bad experiences all around that have affected everything.

    My husband was homeschooled to about a sixth grade level. His parent’s minister decided that after Saxon 76 that he needed no more math. He had no knowledge of finances, and we are working our way through a mountain of debt. I can’t even begin to tell you . . . I wish I had known more about him. I certainly wish I’d known more about his family (that would have been a deal breaker). But, we never even dated. We grew fond of each other while working together in the church offices. From that point on, the ministers had to approve everything. I didn’t even know we’d be getting married until the evening he proposed to me.

    It sounds pretty weird typing it out. But, maybe this explains a little why I feel the way I do.

    Like

  100. BTDT – I can’t imagine that anyone reading your story would not be moved. You are a wonderful person, and that fact is revealed with every story you share. Perhaps you can see why I am so adamant about young people being brought up who can think for themselves, make decisions with skills that have been developed over the years, and are allowed personal autonomy. Education is the key and although it’s wonderful to have many influences, I believe young people need to be allowed to develop their own ideas which may be independent of their parents. I think you get what I am trying to say. Give them wings! Let them be individuals!

    Like

  101. “I am so adamant about young people being brought up who can think for themselves, make decisions with skills that have been developed over the years, and are allowed personal autonomy.”

    I agree. I also think there’s an element of personal responsibility involved. I mean, you cannot simply do what you’re told AND take responsibility for it at the same time. This was an issue that started bothering me several years before we parted ways with our church. If something went wrong it was never their fault, even if it was a result of their direction. I’d much rather take responsibility for my own decisions– good and bad.

    Like

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)