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Tullian Tchividjian is booted from The Gospel Coalition (TGC) website while C.J. Mahaney and Josh Harris quietly leave TGC council amidst ongoing sex abuse lawsuits in which a former Sovereign Grace Ministries volunteer is found guilty of sex abuse charges.
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Confirmation bias regarding one’s friends can become a powerful weapon against the truth. It gives way to black and white thinking which makes the hard work of discernment easier. “This person is my friend and has given me quite a bit of money in their kindness towards me, so I am more inclined to believe that they are incapable of gross wrongdoing.” But people are not simply all or nothing – much the way children understand people when they are very young. Complicated people are quite messy, and the more complicated they are, the more we need to work at figuring out “who” they are. We may agree with them on A,B, and C – but not on D,E, or F. And the more reason we are given to like someone, the greater our bias. Could the Gospel Coalition hold a more favorable opinion of Mahaney than of Tchividjian because of “attitude polarization”? Could the “Mahaney Money Machine” be a factor?
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There has been a lot of activity going on at The Gospel Coalition.
Dee at The Wartburg Watch recently reported in her article, Twitter Wars and Predictions Surrounding SGM and the Nate Morales Conviction:
Over the weekend, a firestorm erupted on Twitter. #IStandWithSGMVictims was started by Zach Hoag. A number of people sent tweets to The Gospel Coalition which promptly blocked a number of people using the hashtag.
This was indeed a firestorm. The hashtag: #IStandWithSGMVictims was quite popular and became a Twitter “trend.” Take a peek at the scores and scores of people in solidarity for the SGM victims and also those who are tired of church leaders not taking action against sex abuse in church.
The sad part about this was response by Joe Carter, spokesman at The Gospel Coalition. One of the most common signs of high-controlling behavior is when someone attempts to control conversation by shutting it down. That is exactly what happened over the weekend. Many people were “blocked” from following The Gospel Coalition after they sent out a tweet that included #IStandWithSGMVictims in the tweet. I’ve been blocked a long time ago from The Gospel Coalition (@TGC), but this time, Joe stooped to a new low and personally blocked me.
Here is the tweet where he accused me of slander. If you click on Source, you can see where I asked Joe to provide proof. He never did. Instead he blocked me.
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Keep in mind, shutting down communication is nothing new at The Gospel Coalition. It has been reported here and at Wartburg Watch numerous times that if anyone mentioned anything regarding C.J. Mahaney and the Sovereign Grace case on TGC blogs, many (if not most) of the time these comments were removed. And why would they be removed? Because they have long defended Mahaney who until this last weekend was on The Gospel Coalition council.
That brings us to another unfolding event over the weekend. Along with a newly designed website at TGC, some noticed that C.J. Mahaney and Josh Harris were no longer listed as council members. Several have reported this story. Harris responded about it on Twitter:
I resigned the @TGC Council because I don’t want the present challenges at my church to distract from this terrific ministry. Godspeed, TGC!
— Joshua Harris (@HarrisJosh) May 19, 2014
Harris voluntarily left TGC apparently because of the current sex abuse legal case his church is involved with (and its former ties with sex abuse cases within Sovereign Grace Ministries). We have not heard a statement from C.J. Mahaney as to why he has left TGC. This was long overdue, if you ask me.
However, Harris and Mahaney are not the only ones to be missing from the council. Late last night, I read this note from Tullian Tchividjian about how he was apparently booted from TGC. He mentioned that he had earlier told TGC of his plans to move his blog from TGC and transition to his own blog site, but TGC gave him no notice that they were booting him now:
None of the powers that be, however, ever mentioned anything to me (either by email or phone) before Thursday when I was simply told that the transition needed to happen now. I know I have had some differences with some of the other contributors to this site but my goal has always been to do nothing but preach the Good News with every post, to bring relief to the burdened and broken, and rest to the weary and heavy laden by fixing the readers’ eyes on the finished work of Jesus. You’ll have to judge for yourself if I succeeded or failed in this regard. (Source)
Now, why would TGC want Tchividjian to leave? Some have suggested it is because Tchividjian’s gospel has too much “grace.” Dee of The Wartburg Watch mentioned this in the following Twitter conversation:
Dee noticed something unique about Tullian Tchividjian in her excellent article, Grace and Obedience: Why I Agree With Tullian Tchividjian and Not With Jen Wilkin and posted this quote from Tchividjian. Tchividjian’s grace message is not the same kind of message we hear from other Neo-Calvinists:
So when I say “Because Jesus succeeded for you, you’re free to fail”, I’m NOT saying “go out and sin more so that grace may abound.” I’ve never heard anyone say that. What I AM saying is that you ARE failing and that if you are in Christ, your failure does not condemn you (Rom. 8:1). Furthermore, your failure cannot separate you from God’s love (Rom. 8:31ff). So, because Jesus succeeded for you, you’re free to fail without fear of being cast out, abandoned. Even our most cataclysmic failures won’t tempt God to “leave us or forsake us.” Perfect love casts out all fear.
Jonathan Merritt interviewed Tchividjian about his book, One Way Love: Inexhaustible Grace for an Exhausted World and once again, also notice the grace theme:
Merritt reports:
Tchividjian takes Christians to task for their legalistic focus on performance. But he also casts a vision for a more grace-filled future. Here, we talk about what he thinks is wrong with the Christian church today and what he believes the answer is.
I love this quote from Tchividjian on morality and free grace.
The fact is, that the solution to restraint-free immorality is not morality. The solution to immorality is the free grace of God. Only undeserved grace can truly melt and transform the heart. The route by which the New Testament exhorts sacrificial love and obedience is not by tempering grace but by driving it home. (Source)
Tchividjian continues by touching on a common issue that we have dealt with in high-controlling church environments:
Furthermore, it seems that the good news of God’s grace has been tragically hijacked by an oppressive religious moralism that is all about rules, rules, and more rules; doing more, trying harder, self-help, getting better, and fixing, fixing, fixing–—ourselves, our kids, our spouse, our friends, our enemies, our culture, our world. Christianity is perceived as being a vehicle for good behavior and clean living and the judgments that result from them rather than the only recourse for those who have failed over and over again. (Source)
It’s interesting. The Gospel Coalition has never had any problem with C.J. Mahaney on their council all this time – even through this sex abuse case has been:
“American evangelicalism’s biggest sex scandal to date.” ~Janet Mefferd
Throughout the Sovereign Grace lawsuit and sex abuse cases there has been one underlying theme that seems to be prevalent. It is the idea that as long as someone has the right doctrine, nothing else matters. It seems that The Gospel Coalition has long sided with Mahaney because he has the “correct” views on complementarianism, he has the right views on Reformed doctrine, he has the right views on the Cross, and sin, and the Gospel. Since Mahaney had all of those really important doctrinal matters correct, it seems they were willing and have been willing to overlook the fact that C.J. Mahaney likely knew about sex abuse cases that occurred in his church and that he and his pastors failed to address those problems appropriately.
T. F. Charlton in his article, Sovereign Grace Sexual Abuse Lawsuit Just Got More Complicated remarks:
T4G and TGC’s defense of Mahaney have left critics asking what it would take for evangelical leaders to consider the possibility that one of their own might be complicit in the coverup of child abuse. (Source)
I’m really struck at the irony here. It seems that C.J. Mahaney should have been the one booted from The Gospel Coalition, not Tullian. We’ve heard nothing but crickets from The Gospel Coalition on these issues. It does seem to appear that “correct” doctrine over grace and victims is what counts for The Gospel Coalition.
I think “Martin Luther’s Disciple” sums it up succinctly in his comment over at Phoenix Preacher blog regarding this situation:
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Maybe the TGC group dislikes the fact that Tullian’s brother is a leader in sex abuse investigation in exposing cover-ups?
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*and* in exposing… [referring to Boz Tchividjian of G.R.A.C.E.]
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I was just tweeting with someone about that. Boz lives in a different state. They both have very busy ministries. I don’t think Boz’s connection has anything to do with it. Having a correct gospel message seems to be TGC’s biggest priority. I may be wrong, though.
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Though Tullian leans a bit towards Sonship Theology for my tastes (which I think argues against the New Creation status of the regenerate), I think that he’s more an overall Presby than New Calvinist. I’m inclined to think that he doesn’t fit the proper profile that fits the GC.
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Tullian preaches the exact same progressive justification that the rest of the New Calvinists do, he just isn’t very nuanced.
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Is this Josh Harris the same one who wrote “I Kissed Dating Goodby”?
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Julie Anne, I don’t know how you have the patience to follow all this stuff. It makes me want to vomit every time I hear someone defending Mahaney, Loftness, Harris, SGM, TGC, etc. The claim of “hyper grace” also makes me sick. Tullian gave a good distinction. The irony is TGC and SGM defenders are practicing hyper grace by refusing to take the sexual abuse cover-up allegations seriously. They give them a free pass. And you’re spot on. Why do they do that? Because the accused are one of the boys who believe the right doctrines. Never mind the #1 biggest principle/lesson in the New Testament that Love fulfills the law, not doctrine.
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You’re doing good work, Julie Anne. Keep it up.
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Carmen, I don’t spend much time reading any of this stuff and happened upon TT when curious about who took over Coral Ridge. He says that you have to preach the Gospel to yourself daily, so who can say. Maybe Voddie wouldn’t participate unless they got rid of Tullian?
EVA! It is the same Josh Harris. They brought him in to CLC to do youth stuff initially. I have always suspected that in addition to capitalizing off his popularity with the young crowd, he would be more easily manipulated and would play the game because he was so young himself. I don’t know him, though, and I’ve never read his book.
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To Pharisees, rules are only for the riff-raff. Pharisees are the kind who react to Jesus raising Lazarus by plotting to kill them both.
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Cindy,
Honestly, since Tullian is preaching the same doctrine, but way too honestly for the rest of the bunch, I’d say TGC got rid of him because he doesn’t play well with the rest of them. “Grace” is just a code word for justification. The New Calvinists read every sanctification verse as a justification verse.
My thoughts on Josh Harris is that he has been manipulated and groomed by Mahaney.
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Cindy K, I have same suspicion. Josh was an extremely talented and gifted speaker at a young age. I saw him speak at a home school conference in 1993 at age 18. He was a perfect specimen to drip groom the CLC/SGM koolaid. Young enough to acculturate (read brainwash or manipulate) and gifted enough to perform.
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Can anyone show me where Tullian has said one word about Mahaney or the victims? I am sincerely asking. I am confused why people think this has to do with Mahaney and TGC.
I do think we are going to see more and more parting in that movement. it has grown to the point that the celebs start competing with one another. You can almost time these things that start out to grow a movement but celebs want their exclusive brand, too, once the original group has served its purpose. Driscoll went off the reservation after years of these guys covering for him. (not for same reasons…Elephant room, anyone?)
Lots of Keller fans asking questions about him and where he stands. I don’t think this is over by a long shot. Problem is most of them won’t say anything about Mahaney or the problems associated with protecting/promoting. It will always be about doing something different and breaking association. A big deal in that movement is to “leave well”. Image and Dollars are at stake
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“Tullian preaches the exact same progressive justification that the rest of the New Calvinists do, he just isn’t very nuanced.”
Bingo! In fact Tullian teaches the kind of “grace” that TGC has shown Mahaney for the last several years. And yes, he teaches a progressive justification. Jesus obeys for you kind of thing. People hear the word grace and that is enough. Morality is not a bad thing. CJ needed it. It is immoral to protect child molesters. It is immoral to tell a 3 year old to face her abuser and forgive because she is just as big of sinner. It is immoral to make bank off Jesus and try to catapult yourself into pastor stardom. Morality is not just about sex. It is about character, integrity, etc.
The way Tullian handled the Coral Ridge situation led me to believe otherwise from him. He can be very heavy handed too.
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Lydia,
If they’re worried about competition in the group, they shot themselves in the foot with Voddie Baucham. I wonder how long he will last, although he is very good at telling the crowd of the moment exactly what they want to hear. It depends on how badly he wants their good graces and how much they want someone who brings in people and puts butts in seats at their events. I’ve heard from those who have tangled with him and left his church that he is one slick chameleon that way.
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mwcamp,
I should add that I put the primary onus of any problem with Josh Harris being a pawn on Mahaney and don’t see it as an intrinsic problem with Josh as a person. I think of him as an “SGA,” too. His dad can work a crowd and make a buck, and he was into stuff that was as strange or more so in some respects than the NCFIC.
That said, Josh is going to have to face the music in his own right, but I have always felt bad for him, too. You learn what you live.
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Hahahahah!! Fart jokes!
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“Honestly, since Tullian is preaching the same doctrine, but way too honestly for the rest of the bunch, I’d say TGC got rid of him because he doesn’t play well with the rest of them. “Grace” is just a code word for justification. The New Calvinists read every sanctification verse as a justification verse.”
Yes they do.
“My thoughts on Josh Harris is that he has been manipulated and groomed by Mahaney.”
Read sgmwikileaks for insight into the relationships of leadership. It will make you vomit it is so cheesy and fake. You will gain great insight into CJ. I kept thinking of a John Wayne quote: The more he writes, the less he says. CJ says nothing but it sounds so lofty and “spiritual”. He is like pinning down jello. It sounds like Josh was trying to grow up and apart from his mentor but unsure of himself. He has lived a life of ministry and only knows how to make a living off Jesus.
http://www.scribd.com/sgmwikileaks
I recognize this stuff. It was in the mega. I am telling you these churches with the celebs are systems that breed this fakery even among the leadership.
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I saw Tullian speak recently, and felt a “Don’t trust him,” check in my spirit. There was absolutely NOTHING in his sermon that gave me pause, so if my spiritual BS-ometer is off, it’s my fault, not Tullians.
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“f they’re worried about competition in the group, they shot themselves in the foot with Voddie Baucham. I wonder how long he will last, although he is very good at telling the crowd of the moment exactly what they want to hear. It depends on how badly he wants their good graces and how much they want someone who brings in people and puts butts in seats at their events. I’ve heard from those who have tangled with him and left his church that he is one slick chameleon that way.”
Another way to look at it is the speaking gigs from TGC will pay better than the group he has been hanging with. TGC wins, too, because of the diversity. He is good on patriarchy and Reformed doctrine. I think he will get a big pass. He used to hang with some of them before. Then he went all Paul Washer/DP it seems. What happened (besides DP?)
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“That said, Josh is going to have to face the music in his own right, but I have always felt bad for him, too. You learn what you live.”
I bet he wished he had gone to college. There are not a lot of options for him even preaching with any other denomination as most have seminary degrees. That is why CJ’s son and son in law are attending SBTS? They saw the light? (Scary thought they will be SBC pastors)
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Cindy, you may be right. I really don’t know Josh. However, I knew CJ, Larry, John Loftness, Mark Mullery, Che Ahn, Lou Engle, etc. back in the day. I drank their kool aid. I watched Mullery, who was my peer and got groomed, drink it big time and I remember questioning his blind following once or twice and he just didn’t see it. I was duped too, so I’m no saint, but there’s a point when even though you’re “groomed” and “discipled,” there are red flags and when you ignore them, there is some culpability. Ego has a lot to do with it, too. We want so much to be accepted, and when you kowtow to PDI/SGM they really pour on the “good old boy” praise, so we ignore the red flags and just keep lapping at the trough.
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nwcamp, I always got the impression that Josh was pretty much “placed” under CJ by his dad to be mentored for the mega church world.. Maybe the money they offered him was too good to pass up. What else was he going to do? Write books and do conferences for teens when he is 50? I do know he must have been the perfect candidate for Mahaney: uneducated, isolated in a patriarchal rules oriented movement so no real world experience which would have helped him be an independent thinker. Perfect to groom and manipulate UNTIL he gets to be the big guy himself as pastor of CLC. You know there is a time every protege gets a bit frustrated with their mentor. I can see it all over sgmwikileaks. But Josh never really stands up to him. He seemed to play the fence.
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Lydia, you got it, exactly. No real-world experience, already brainwashed in the home school world, so no independent thinking. Playing the fence is just a slightly more palatable way of enabling the abusers.
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For about 6 months, our family attended a Household of Faith church plant (the family of churches Josh Harris’ father, Gregg Harris started).
I’ve also attended a SGM church in Virginia when we lived there. I don’t see Josh’s style to be nearly as Patriocentric (is that the word?) as his father’s family-integrated churches. So SGM churches have “heads of households meetings?” That would be one dead giveaway.
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Check this out!!!
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JA – the link does not work?
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I’ve got a note in to the reporter about the dead link. I’ll let you know if I hear something.
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The Christian Post seems to have pulled it. 😦
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It’s like Kremlin-watching every May Day of the Cold War —
Who’s next to be Purged from The Party?
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It’s not in Wayback either–I may have accidentally saved the 404 page just now on Wayback too. 😦 So sorry about that.
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I asked why they pulled it on their Facebook page.
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If the Christian post pulled it, I am astounded. And it will hurt their credibility. I don’t care how many lawyers are involved.
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I have it. No worries.
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Tchvidjian added that he was “pretty disturbed” when Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor published a statement on TGC website in May 2013 which defended Mahaney, saying it looked “like the good-old boys club covering their own.”
“I thought it was premature. I thought it was insensitive. I communicated with the guys who wrote the statement that I was disappointed, that I thought it was unwise and premature and that they needed to clarify that their statement was not a statement from The Gospel Coaltion, per se, but was their own personal statement,” Tchividjian explained.
“There were some of us on the coaltion, or who were associated with it, who didn’t want to be associated with their defense of C.J.,” he continued. “I’ve just been disgusted by the whole thing.”
Last week, Tchvidjian said that he was informed via a friend on TGC’s council that the groups’s leadership wanted his blog posts removed “ASAP”. According to the contact, TGC leadership…..noted that part of it’s decision seemed to “be personal, some theological.” “I was told the other day that conversations about me have been going on for a year, which I didn’t know until the other day,” said Tchividjian.
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I would take it as a compliment to be booted from TGC. And especially for too much grace. Pretty sure Jesus would lean that way rather than setting up a freakin coalition.
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Re; ““I was told the other day that conversations about me have been going on for a year, which I didn’t know until the other day,” said Tchividjian”
I once heard an older Bible teacher state something to this effect: “The good thing about being fired is it helps you make up your mind.” That may apply here for TT.
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http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2014/05/a-few-practical-questions.php
Carl Trueman weighs in. C.J. Mahaney’s name is not mentioned.
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“Give me a break. These people, they’re family. Of course, he knew,” Tchividjian told the Christian Post. “C.J. was, for many years, the micro-managing head of the organization and nothing happened under the umbrella of Sovereign Grace that he wasn’t made aware of, so for anyone to say, ‘Well he didn’t know,’ that totally naive.”
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@ Carmen S.~
Did Trueman even say anything in that post?
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‘Carl Trueman weighs in. C.J. Mahaney’s name is not mentioned.”
I am a bit sick of people acting like Trueman is not one of the group now. As if he is some sage. he was on the panel that declared Mahaney “fit for ministry”. did he bother to interview any of the victims whose stories had been out there for several years on a well known blog? He went along with the whole Peacemakers debacle set up deal.
Now that he has distanced himself with several articles about celebrity pastors, etc, he thinks that is all it takes? He needs to come clean about his participation in promoting and protecting Mahaney. I am really tired of these guys and their image management tricks. They really do think we are stupid.
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From Trueman’s article:
“Christians commit horrendous sins. I was licensed to preach at a Presbytery meeting where the very next item on the agenda was the excommunication of a minister for longstanding horrific and violent behaviour towards others. Our theology needs not simply to explain why people do such terrible things but also guide us in how to discipline and counsel them in such circumstances.”
No they don’t commit horrendous sins. What moral chaos these guys teach.
How to discipline and counsel them? Is he serious? Has he never read 1 Corin 5? SHEESH!!!! You counsel the violent jerk when he is in prison after you have called the police and put him OUT of the Body so….. as Paul says, he can be saved!
Ya think the minister committing horrendous crimes preaches a sermon about Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit and then goes out and whacks someone? Is that Trueman’s Christianity? These guys continue to astound me with their lack of common sense.
Me: My minister is tried to kill me!!!
Trueman: Let us counsel him and then discuss discipline.
Moral chaos comes from that movement.
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Trueman has been writing about celeb pastors for years…nothing new. It’s not some new heavy revy that he is seeing, and gosh darn those celeb pastors–he is gonna expose ’em all.
I read his post again…what in the world did he write that was of any benefit?
As a matter of fact, I found the post disturbing and graphic. I also do NOT believe he should throw around the word “Christian” when he describes serial rapists, violent people and men who rape and leave little girls half dead in the gutter. UGH. Really? They are not Christian in my world. He needs to learn the term professing Christian.
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Lydia…lol we were in each other’s minds.
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Here is a link to a cached page of the Christian Post article, “Tullian Tchividjian Blasts Sovereign Grace Ministries Handling of Sex Abuse Scandal; Prematurely Departs The Gospel Coalition” http://tinyurl.com/oxtrpvq
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Trueman:
“When a man comes to your office and tells you he’s just violated a little girl and left her bleeding and half dead in a gutter, yes, you immediately phone the police. He has got to be punished by the civil authorities and taken out of society for the protection of the innocent. But then, when you visit him in prison as his pastor and he tells you he feels this compulsion that will make him commit the same crime if he is ever released, does your advice simply amount to encouraging him to reflect in deeper ways on the love of God and simply remember he is a magnificent ruin? I do hope not. And do you have more resources for him than simply telling him to reflect in deeper ways on his justification? I do hope so. The New Testament seems to offer a few.”
Let’s hear your suggestions, Trueman. I noticed you left them out. and gave us-gosh, sure do hope so.
“…does your advice simply amount to encouraging him to reflect in deeper ways on the love of God and simply remember he is a magnificent ruin?”
No, because I would not assume he is a Christian. I would tell the supposed Christian rapist that Trueman thinks this man is to examine himself and read a bit of 1John to him. iow…suggest he get saved.
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“As recent events have shown, churches contain perverts. Churches contain perverts who are Christians. Churches contain perverts who are Christians who do real harm to others and to themselves in their sin.”
Oh just…UGH. Perverts who ARE Christians? How does he know that?
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“Let’s hear your suggestions, Trueman. I noticed you left them out. and gave us-gosh, sure do hope so.”
Exactly. How about telling the Warden what he said? Anything to try and protect the innocents!!
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“As recent events have shown, churches contain perverts. Churches contain perverts who are Christians. Churches contain perverts who are Christians who do real harm to others and to themselves in their sin.”
No churches ATTRACT perverts because of your type of teaching. Christians are not evil. Sheesh!!! What was the point of the cross for these guys? Oh yeah, Jesus is obeying for us because we remain evil.
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I am starting to see why Trueman was asked to find CJ fit for ministry.
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Yes Lydia….his post is very disturbing to me.
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Of course, Trueman’s blog post doesn’t’ seem to allow comments…
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Both unbelievers AND believers are totally depraved in Calvinism. Tullian Tchvidjian, David Platt, and Matt Chandler have literally used the words. They aren’t nuanced. This gets them in trouble. Trueman is saying the same thing in that article. Where’s the new birth, you say? I wish more people would start noticing.
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In the book The Reformers and their Stepchildren, it explains that the reformers came up with a most devious excuse for their sin, in clear violation of Paul’s condemnation of their argument: “We should sin more and more so God’s grace can abound”. In fact, they began to vilify any Christians who led clean lives, and accused them of only pretending to be outwardly clean. They even argued that a priest should be as wicked as possible so it would be all about God and not them!
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Thanks, boatrocker, I highly recommend that book: The Reformers and their Stepchildren by Leonard Verduin. Another book of his is also brilliant: Anatomy of a Hybrid about the “state church”.
Trueman needs to put his money where his mouth is and pastor a church full of evil Christians committing horrendous crimes. But he is safely tucked away in academia.
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1 Corinthians 5: 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]
Dang, these guys REALLY, REALLY don’t read their Bibles at all, do they?
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Carl Trueman is the pastor of Cornerstone Presbyterian Church ( OPC) in Penn.
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An elder is to be above reproach. C.J. Mahaney was not fit to be behind a pulpit.
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Carl Trueman is OPC – the same kind of OPC as Kevin Swanson?
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“My thoughts on Josh Harris is that he has been manipulated and groomed by Mahaney.”
I have no doubt you’re correct. I also have no doubt that Josh Harris still has much for which he must answer, from his book I Kissed Dating Goodbye to the sex abuse coverup allegations. If Harris was indeed aware of the allegations in 2007 and did nothing, then his credibility as a senior pastor is essentially destroyed.
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Is it just me or do those individuals at TGC not really see something a bit wrong with the way they do things? Julie Anne I went through the twitter feed with you and dee and some of the stuff they say and found in rather embarrassing for them, I sort of felt sorry for those folks, not too much but sort of.
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But brian, they aren’t embarrassed. We’re the problem.
:::::bangs head against wall:::::
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They are wrong folks like you and dee are part of the solution. Agree with the bangs on head, if you want to see some real ripping free jinger is quite interesting. You and Dee are mild compared to those folks. Have a nice evening.
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Ironic that Trueman criticizes Tullian Tchividjian’s theology as being unequipped to deal with horrendous crimes, while Tchividjian himself says such things as: “There were some of us on the coalition, or who were associated with it, who didn’t want to be associated with their defense of C. J.,” he continued. “I’ve just been sort of disgusted by the whole thing.” And Trueman says nothing.
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I am as infuriated with Carl Trueman as the others commenters above are. His post asked lots of questions, but gave no answers. The time for gentle provocative questions is over. I emailed the Evangelical Alliance to express my disgust, since the post does not allow comments.
I am furious. In my neck of the woods (Melbourne, Australia) Trueman was the key notespeaker at a Presbyterian Ministers conference a few years ago. And for as long as I have know it, the PCA here (Presbyterian Church of Australia) has been kow-towing to the PCA in America, scratching each others’ backs, being the old boys club together. I am so sick of these big-name men who who choose not to stand up for oppressed. And the likes of Trueman, who make nice-sounding phrases about how heinous child rape is, are despicable. Put your money where you mouth is, Trueman! Put your neck on the line, like Julie Anne and the rest of us have!
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Barbara, if Carl Trueman is OPC (Orthodox Presby), he’s in a conservative off-shoot of the PC. Way back in the day, there was a big controversy (women in office) in my raised-as-a-kid denom, the Christian Reformed Church, and some of them went OPC. Others went Netherlands Christian Reformed, Orthodox Christian Reformed, etc (rolls eyes).
If I’m not mistaken, Westminster Seminary was begun by OP.
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“I am furious. In my neck of the woods (Melbourne, Australia) Trueman was the key notespeaker at a Presbyterian Ministers conference a few years ago. And for as long as I have know it, the PCA here (Presbyterian Church of Australia) has been kow-towing to the PCA in America, scratching each others’ backs, being the old boys club together. I am so sick of these big-name men who who choose not to stand up for oppressed. And the likes of Trueman, who make nice-sounding phrases about how heinous child rape is, are despicable.” Barbara Roberts
Indeed! By their reaction you will know them. Or by their silence you will know them.
The constant preaching of a clean, spotless bride… and the justification of church discipline, shunning & extra-Biblical (silly man-made) rules WHEN these sorts of heinous crimes seem to be ignored or treated as minor IS NOT THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIFE.
Preachers, believers, AND NONCHRISTIANS, are obligated to protect AND defend against heinous crimes. EVERYBODY is obligated to uphold & obey righteous laws, right? Jesus followers go further than that… they WANT to be a good Samaritan. When preachers and/or denoms don’t, they are worse than unbelievers, IMO.
I see them as Christian extremists. I see a cult of death where all that matters is the soul, the next life. They don’t care what happens here & now, to the body or mind, even to little ones, IMO. God dealt it so accept it. Fate. This is what Islamic extremists teach. Self-sacrifice for the group agenda / theology. What matters is the reformed religion/theology alone.
There are quite a few Christian extremists these days, it would seem. Does Trueman, Beeke, Swanson vision-cast for the PCA or OPC? It would seem so… based on their leadership positions & the silent agreement from their orgs, at least.
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I think Carl Trueman makes one good point. When one makes grace and one-way love primary (a proper understanding IMO), it is also important to be clear about how to proceed when people continue to do evil among us. As taylorjoyyoung quotes, “…you must not associate…do not even eat with such people…” And in order to come to such a decision about someone, one needs to have a careful process in place, otherwise it’ll revert to the same willy-nilly shunning/disciplining as do TGC, Acts 29, Vision Forum, etc, etc.
Or that one-way love can be used only for those at the top, as happened at SGM, an endless riff of “forgiveforgiveforgive”.
But it is bizarre how Carl appears completely unaware that he is also talking about his own system, which has been failing the very things about which he criticizes Tullian, in front of his very own face in current time. That’s one gigantic blind spot, right there. Sheesh.
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Kevin Swanson is too busy vision-casting against the movie Frozen than to be bothered with the minor concerns discussed on this blog. That’s where his priorities are.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/swanson-disneys-frozen-satanic-push-turn-kids-gay
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Edited to correct errors.
Patrice, you are right.
Princeton Seminary in NJ traces its heritage directly back to Calvin’s or at least Turretin’s (17th-18th Century) Geneva. It is the second oldest seminary in the US. You will hear New Calvinists quoting Charles Hodge and his late 19th Century Systematic Theology. He taught at Princeton and was trained there but sought lots of other training (some in nearby Philadelphia). Interesting guy — we’d be in better shape if the rockstar Calvinists today could actually discern what he wrote. He was pro-slavery, however, as so many Presbys were in that day — because it’s “Bibilcal.”
Other names you’ll hear of Princeton fame are Gerhardus Vos, B.B. Warfield, and J. Gresham Machen who taught together there. Then came the “fundamentalist” movement in the late19th/early20th, and Princeton was the strongest voice in terms of Biblical inerrancy (while Baptists, et. al. focused on dispensationalism and and evangelicalism associated with the movement). Princeton, specifically Vos, developed this idea that all passages of Scripture had to point to a salvation message and should be preached to bring everything back around to Christ. That has created a lot of academic belly button contemplation about Christ’s works and how they apply to the believer. Out of context, that discussion eventually birthed things like Federal Vision.
J. Gresham Machen was largely responsible for the founding of Westminster Theological Seminary outside of Philadelphia (1929) and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (1936). Most of the New Calvinism nonsense we see today came from Westminster in the late ’60s/early ’70s. (I don’t think that you can understand Piper until you read circa 1970 Westminster’s interpretation of Vos and his push to bring all Scripture morals back to an altar call kind of thing. Though Piper didn’t go to school there, the influence of the school has profoundly affected New Calvinism and many theonomists, too. Lots of theonomists in the OPC.)
Anyway, Machen ushered in a rejection of what he thought was liberalism at Princeton.
Now, it is said that Westminster is quite liberal and has been affected by the German higher textual criticism and now follows an emergent church system of ethics and the “hermeneutics of trust.”
The late John Robbins (who I like to read on many subjects including his early and shrill criticism of New Calvinism) left the PCA and decried doctrinal problems with the New Calvinists and doctrinal issues at Westminster Theological Seminary.
Joe Morecraft spearheaded the Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States (RPCUS), the group that drew Doug Wilson and others into question over Federal Vision. The OPC became too liberal for him, thus the RPCUS was formed.
But then we have Wilson who departed because the RPCUS would have defrocked him, so he left and just started his own ordaining body/denomination — the CREC.
So there’s the scorecard for ya.
The short version that some may find both helpful and amusing:
The OPC is to the PCA
what the IFB is to the SBC.
(They split over fundamentalism and compromise, too.)
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Blame it all on Martin Luther who opened this can of worms of the priesthood of all believers. He reportedly had a real life problem with flatulence. And he was so non-pretentious, I think that he would sit back, laugh heartily, and approve of the fart reference above.
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One thing that I have noticed is that 1 Cor 5 is not being adhered to, by many reformed church’s across the nation, and the world.
Leaders are being forgiven by other leaders, in order for them to remain at the table (to eat with them). Their repentance is phoney. They are only sorry that they got caught. They just don’t want to lose a high paying career. The Love of Money.
Here is how Doug Phillips explained it to his victim:
he manipulated her into believing that it would ruin his reputation, destroy his ministry and get her in trouble with the church.
He was only worried about his job. He didn’t give a damn about God (Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength). It was all about him and his standing in the church organization to make money from. He didn’t give a damn about Lourdes (Love thy neighbor). He was being self-serving. (Don’t tell on me, or you will be kicked out of the church…which, in reality means, that you are not a Christian, which ultimately means that if you tell on me, you are going to hell).
It is the victims that are being blamed for enticing the leaders, and they end up being the ones who are kicked from the table. The man that can’t keep his thing in his pants is not kicked from the table, not kicked out of the church to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved.
I am really having a hard time that people are “flocking” to be members at church’s like this.
John 10:11-15 (Jesus speaking) “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep. 12 The hired man is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when the hired man sees the wolf coming, he leaves the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired man. He does not care about the sheep. 14 “I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep, and my sheep know me. 15 They know me just as the Father knows me and I know the Father. And I give my life for the sheep.
We went thru this with a fine tooth comb in church on Sunday by a missionary who is a missionary in China.
The Pastors are the HIRED man. And they don’t care about the sheep. Jesus is the one who owns the sheep. The hired man (pastor) runs away when the wolf comes. Why? Because he is a HIRED man. Notice that Jesus KNOWS his sheep, and his sheep KNOW Jesus. JUST AS the Father knows Jesus, and Jesus knows the Father. There is a relationship here. We have a relationship with God, because we know God, and he knows us.
There are wolves in the church telling us that we can’t know the creator, and those wolves are the leaders. But there are also HIRED MEN who do not care for the sheep. They do not own the sheep. Jesus does. Believe you me, there will be hell to pay for those wolves and leaders. The queen of the south (Sheba) will condemn them. The people of Nineveh will condemn them.
Ed
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There is much talk about the law & how law leads us to Christ, we are no longer under law, legalism is bad, etc. I am concerned it is causing much confusion. This is what I see, particularly in the reformed-leaning groups:
Come. Follow my vision, my rules. My many rules will protect you & your kids. For example, I will save your kids with my Frozen rule. The rule to avoid Frozen will save them from the homosexual message which will make them gay, which will send them to hell. Whew, that was close. See how loving I am? You need me, my vision, my rules for your life. So then, you must agree to discipline & to shun in order for the rules to work & protect.
IMO: They are basically offering soul protection in exchange for your physical devotion to them. This is caste/feudal system living. There is no individual decision-making, unless you’re near the top. And manipulative people thrive & climb to the top in this way of life.
IMO: They are upfront. They offer a vision for anal rules that “cover” your soul ONLY. Their vision doesn’t include right laws that actually protect your body here on earth. Big important difference! When crimes are committed, their theology will continue in action: all sin is same, grace is given, forgive, keep following the anal rules for your SOUL so you will get to heaven. See, there is no contradiction.
Ask yourself: Does Jesus care about our body? Does Jesus care about what happens to children? Does Jesus tell us to physically care for & defend each other? Do you really want to be around people who say Jesus abolished right laws that protect?
The problem is many don’t actually understand this theology/belief system or vision to begin with. So when the damage is done, they are surprised.
Please, don’t be surprised. Please understand the difference. Right laws are good.
Their visions AKA anal rules are bad, they don’t protect. Right laws we love, obey, uphold.
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Here’s a little better history scorecard of the different Presby churches which doesn’t include the Reformed church denominations. (Edited for errors 6:45PM)
PC-USA (They dropped the “U” from their original title in ’83 to become just the PC-USA) United Presbyterian Church in the United States founded in 1789 by John Witherspoon (who was instrumental in the American Revolution and in the shaping of the Constitution). It merged with the United Presby in North America in ’58 and changed the name. Some of the controversy had to do with slavery, and some had to do with fundamentalism in it’s truest and purest definition circa early 20th Century. They then started ordaining women, and Machen was mad about their support of author/missionary Pearl S. Buck who founded an independent Presby missions board. They are very, very, very liberal today.
OPC Orthodox Presbyterian Church was founded by Machen when he split off from the PC-USA because they were too liberal. They have a close relationship with Westminster Theological Seminary, spearheaded by Machen.
RPCUS Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States. Very tiny group. Founded by individuals who separated from the OPC because of liberalism. Spearheaded by Morecraft of Vision Forum fame. (Note that they have absolutely nothing to do with the RPCGA which was a homeschooling focused denomination that booted RC Sproul, Jr and dismissed McDonald under censure.)
******The RPCUS is the group that took Wilson and Schlissel and others to task over Federal Vision. They then left without being defrocked and just started their own ordaining body, the CREC.
PCUS The Presbyterian Church in the United States denomination split away from the PC-USA during the Civil War because the parent organization supported faithfulness to the United States (not necessarily slavery, but the Confederates couldn’t comply). During the war, they were known as the Presby Church of the Confederate States of America. In the 1940s, they started to experiment with liberalism and considered merging (back into) the UPC-USA. They were definitively split into several factions over the civil rights movement. They founded the Reformed Theological Seminaries (RTS), the first one of which was in Mississippi, I believe with the intent of being more non-denominational.
PCA The Presbyterian Church in America was founded in 1973 by those who departed from the PCUS, over the issues with the civil rights movement and because of the liberalism they feared would come through the flirting over a merger with the UPC-USA which finally took place in 1983.
SUMMARY:
UPC-USA births the PCUS (Southern Confederates) over slavery before the “War of Northern Aggression,” but then reabsorbs it in 1983 after society figured out where it was going with civil rights. In that process, the PCUS birthed the PCA (R.C. Sproul, Sr and other folks like Steve Wilkins, co-author of “Slavery:As it Was” and proud member of the League of the South).
John Robbins, the intellectual heir of Gordon H Clark, presuppositional apologist and foundationalist, left the PCA where he was ordained over what turned into New Calvinism and other problems with liberalism at Westminster.
They also birthed the OPC (Machen/Westminster) who then birthed the RPCUS (Morecraft) who booted Wilson over FV), all over growing liberalism in doctrine and practice.
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Let me know if I got any of that wrong. I think it’s pretty sound, though. I’ve cycled through things via the OPC route, and I realized that I am not a Presby. I am more Lutheran in my basic doctrine, and Presbys don’t play well with the Lutherans.
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A mom, there is a TON of confusion about the Law. Some think it was designed and commanded by God so we would have to fail.
But we must ask WHOSE law? The summation from Jesus: Love God/Love your neightobr? Who decides for you what that looks like in practice? (Yes, we have to practice it) That is part of what the Holy Spirit is for!!! But people go to a pastor to tell them. Surely there must be a checklist for formula to follow. Nope. It is abiding in Christ. Vine/Branch. Drawing closer day by day. ASking Him every day, what am I missing? How could I have handled that differently? Do I need to make it right?
I will get GASPS for saying this but we have to practice “being” Christians. Jesus is not obeying for us. We do not have “sinner, get out of jail passes”. Not only is 1 Corin 5 not found in their bibles but they also left out Hebrews 10:26-31
Yes, we as humans are involved in the process of growing in Holiness. We don’t get to be vile violent vipers and not only saved but in ministry! I am still in shock over that creepy article.
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This is just in:
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Some of this wacko stuff ranging from the Gospel Coalition to the more fringy Patriarchy/Quiverfull stuff seems like a good thing because people were so sick of the anti-intellectualism in Evangelicalism. Along come these wise guys with some good doctrine to chew on and a rich heritage of theology going back to the Reformation.
People were sick of the empty emotionalism and social club stuff, and even groups like Phillips’ Vision Forum seemed to offer some meat. It was something to think about, anyway, instead of three prayers and a poem on Sunday mornings. So that element of this sucks people in, and they think if they parrot the intelligent sounding rhetoric of these men, they can be smart, too.
But sadly, as Carmen S (specifically about these New Calvinists) and so many others here point out, they aren’t so smart. For whatever reasons, their hermeneutics suck half the time and their tactics are often just jackbooted thuggery. Bait and switch.
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A Mom,
Right laws are good, yes, however, What Does Love Look Like? The Apostle Paul declares that the law is good, if used properly.
Romans 6:12-13 So don’t let sin rule your body, which is going to die. Don’t obey its evil longings. Don’t give the parts of your body to serve sin. Don’t let them be used to do evil. Instead, give yourselves to God. You have been brought from death to life. Give the parts of your body to him to do what is right.
What is right? People most assuredly needs to know the law, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. You can’t know what sin is but by the law.
If you are loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself, there is no need for a law. If you are loving your neighbor, you are not sinning against your neighbor. If you love God, you are not sinning against God. That is the whole premise behind the law being abolished. Those two commandments are all that are needed. So, when a law is broken, it shows that you are not obeying the gospel, and if you are not obeying the gospel, you are under the law of God that condemns, but if you are obeying the law of faith (Love God and Love People), then you are not under the law that condemns, as Love Fulfills the law.
Do we really need a law that states do not commit adultery if we know that isn’t love? It’s love your neighbor, not make love to your neighbor.
So, we need a “What Does Love Look Like” remedy. Once that has been determined, then we know what love does not look like, and then we need to ensure that those who don’t obey love to be kicked out. Do we really need a law that states to not steal? If we steal from our neighbor, is that loving your neighbor? Of course not. Those who are under the law are the sinners, the lawbreakers, and the law was not made for the righteous. Christians are righteous. We are not striving to be righteous. That’s works.
Our conduct of loving thy neighbor is fruit’s of the spirit. And we are fruit inspectors, as my buddy tells me.
Yes, I have noticed all of the rules based soul saving that you mentioned. It’s terrible. If they want rules, I won’t be attending the Sunday morning services.
If ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, touch not, taste not, handle not?
I see a lot on the word “obedience” in the reformed circles. I don’t mind that word when used properly. We are told to “Obey My Commandments”. I don’t mind that when used properly.
But, it isn’t being used properly. We are to be obedient to the law of faith, in which are only two commandments contained therein. Love God, and Love People. No other commandments, no other law. We are supposed to know what that means BASED ON the law. The law must be preached so that we know what love looks like. But if the law is being preached for the purpose of being obedient to the law, then the law is being used improperly.
Ed
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“The law must be preached so that we know what love looks like. But if the law is being preached for the purpose of being obedient to the law, then the law is being used improperly.” Ed Chapman
What is a righteous man? A righteous man does right regardless of whether there is law or not, punishment or not. There is no need to remind of consequences, they aren’t the motivating factor. Doing right for love of God, self, others is enough.
The law must be understood & upheld since we don’t automatically know who is righteous or not. There is a need for law, punishment, consequences. These are motivating factors for unrighteous. They are not motivating factors for evil-doers who need to be stopped, contained, brought to justice.
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I’ve got too much homework and my brain is not in gear, but I do not get this latest article by Wilson. Would someone speak in clear English and tell me what he’s trying to say? http://t.co/nhBip1MCYr
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A Mom,
“The law must be understood & upheld since we don’t automatically know who is righteous or not. There is a need for law, punishment, consequences.”
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Galatians 4:21
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law…
Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:8
…For without the law sin was dead.
Galatians 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Those verses and many more, including that Abraham did not have the law, tells me that the law genders sin.
Galatians 4:24
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Ed
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A Mom,
To summarize, it isn’t Law Plus Grace, as what some are preaching in some circles. It is Law vs. Grace.
Ed
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Doug Wilson is doing what he always does. He’s throwing a patriarchal hissyfit that unless people follow what he believes, the world will end tomorrow.
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Doug Wilson as in PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT! WIlson?
Well, Patrios/Comps/Male Supremacists will ALWAYS have a hair up their butts about Homosexuality(TM). Because it involves a MAN laying back and accepting instead of PENETRATING! COLONIZING! CONQUERING! PLANTING! If a MAN(TM) acts like a WOMAN, i.e. on the Bottom getting Penetrated instead of on Top PENETRATING! COLONIZING! CONQUERING! PLANTING! PENETRATING! COLONIZING! CONQUERING! PLANTING! in an Animal Forced Dominance Display, How else can Patrios be REAL MEN?
A corollary to this is that Lesbians would be completely off their radar because its WOMAN on WOMAN so who cares? It doesn’t threaten REAL MANHOOD and is actually Kinda Kinky. (Hawt Lezbo Action is a staple of straight male porn.)
Another complication is that Male Supremacy will find itself drawn to male-on-male homosexuality; how else can a man have sex with another PERSON instead of Just a Woman? And there’s always a fear of male-on-male Bromance bonding spilling over and getting physical/making a WOMAN out of ME. (“NOT ME! ME MAN! ME MAN! ME MAN!”) So any Male Supremacist culture will always have a love/hate relationship with homosexuality, both attracted and repelled.
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Glad to hear that T.T. is getting out of the Gospel Coalition, even if being “dishonourably discharged” leaves a bad taste in his mouth.
I realize that some here have a problem with parts of his theology. I’m not that familiar with it myself, but I like a lot of what he said in the Christian Post article. Looking forward to his interview with Janet Mefferd (which I’ll have to catch from the archives, unfortunately).
As to the attitude of Joe Carter and TCG to #IStandWithSGMVictims… It reminds me for all the world of this passage in Isaiah 30:
10 They say to the seers,
“See no more visions!”
and to the prophets,
“Give us no more visions of what is right!
Tell us pleasant things,
prophesy illusions.
11 Leave this way,
get off this path,
and stop confronting us
with the Holy One of Israel!”
Nothing new under the sun, indeed…
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“Some of this wacko stuff ranging from the Gospel Coalition to the more fringy Patriarchy/Quiverfull stuff seems like a good thing because people were so sick of the anti-intellectualism in Evangelicalism. Along come these wise guys with some good doctrine to chew on and a rich heritage of theology going back to the Reformation”
This is so true. What does it take to build a movement? An enemy. The enemy was the shallow seeker churches full of entertainment and show. The doctrinal focus was “Jesus is my boyfriend” or Jesus is my superhero– for kids. You load the language using words everyone is familiar with but with different meaning. You trot out old dead guys as the experts. the shallow seeker people had no dead guys to compete.
But it is not intellectual at all. it is indoctrination. I have never seen a movement in Christendom so lacking in critical thinking skills. The movement leaders needed one another for affirmation. Constantly telling audiences of young angry me in rapture how smart Al Mohler is. How humble CJ is. How biblical Dever is and so on. They tried to pass off TGC as diverse. The Reformed answer to ecumenism.
Thing is,some of us at ground zero know that Mohler is more about political strategy than he is about doctrine. Doctrine was the vehicle to power and lots of followers. He partners with whomever helps him. A lot of non Calvinists pay his salary. He is mindful of that when he has to be.
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JA, You think the Christian Post has any idea how timely their “mistake” was?
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Lydia,
I can’t decide whether the CP did mess up (I’ve done this with my own blog, actually) —
or whether it’s a case of “Don’t pee on my shoe and tell me it’s raining.”
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I’m shocked that TGC let Tullian post this much:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tullian/2014/05/20/ive-come-to-set-the-captives-free/
Our plan for the past year or so is that we would eventually move all of my “blog” content from The Gospel Coalition site over to Liberate. I had informed The Gospel Coalition of my plan to make this transition in August when the new Liberate site is launched, but was informed on Thursday that certain members of The Gospel Coalition wanted the transition to happen ASAP. I was disappointed and a bit confused. We would’ve loved to have had more time to get things ready on our end and I have always been open to having any conversations with any of the staff at The Gospel Coalition who had any questions whatsoever about the content I was posting. I would’ve been happy to answer any questions they may have had and provide robust clarification if needed. None of the powers that be, however, ever mentioned anything to me (either by email or phone) before Thursday when I was simply told that the transition needed to happen now.
TGC has a profoundly low opinion of the discernment ability of their readers. Amazing.
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Lydia – I got e-mails from people who were truly devastated when it was removed – a couple who have been personally affected by sexual abuse in church and it sent them on such an emotional roller coaster (understandably). For the first time, someone – Tullian – a well-known pastor spoke boldly and validated them, calling the evil OUT and then seemingly his voice was removed. It was surely very triggering of: no talk, etc.
I did inform Morgan of this early on and kept in touch with her.
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“I can’t decide whether the CP did mess up (I’ve done this with my own blog, actually) –
or whether it’s a case of “Don’t pee on my shoe and tell me it’s raining.”
Well some think it a sin to speculate but my experience working with mega celebs in past has my radar going bonkers. I think there is something else going on at higher levels. Another little war playing out.
The thing we can learn from all this is public reaction counts for quite a bit. There are media outlets who will do favors or go along with a celeb but if the public outcry is enough they change course. I have seen it quite a bit over the years. When the public does not respond, it stands. That is why mass voices are so important. That is why #IstandbySGMvictims was so brilliant. When TGC sees that, they also see dollar signs slipping away. They make a living off their public personas. From a purely pragmatic pov, they really should muzzle Joe Carter. But I am glad they don’t so more can see the thinking in that movement.
All victims need to know many are out there speaking in their behalf. Silence is the killer. The evil enabler. Satan adores it, though. He is the master deceiver.
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“Lydia – I got e-mails from people who were truly devastated when it was removed – a couple who have been personally affected by sexual abuse in church and it sent them on such an emotional roller coaster (understandably). For the first time, someone – Tullian – a well-known pastor spoke boldly and validated them, calling the evil OUT and then seemingly his voice was removed. It was surely very triggering of: no talk, ”
I can imagine and thank you for being on it with the CP. It is so disheartening when something like that happens because survivors are well aware of the influence their abuse protectors who spiritually abused them, really have. They have seen it first hand for years. It becomes so degrading one is often tempted to walk away because it is like fighting city hall only you are going against so many people’s icons/idols that they think is representative of Jesus himself. . And they turn on you. those who should be listening to you are rebuking you. Then the other celebs pile on saying you just don’t like strong leadership (Mohler). this whole celebrity Christian culture is nothing but cult of personality.
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“Those verses and many more, including that Abraham did not have the law, tells me that the law genders sin.” Ed Chapman
Confused. Was there no such thing as sin before the law was written in tablet stone? Cain murdered Abel before the 10 commandments were written down. Does that mean he didn’t sin?
Law doesn’t CAUSE us to sin. As if something outside of us makes us do wrong. It is a matter of personal choice. A decision.
What about those who knew nothing of the 10 commandments thru-out history? Was it impossible for them to sin or do wrong because they never saw it on stone, animal skin, paper, pc monitor?
I believe the knowledge of right & wrong, good & bad are generally imparted to each person by God & this knowledge grows as they do. Each are responsible. Saved or unsaved.
I am not discussing salvation here. I am discussing a way of life & consequences. Are the unsaved okay murder/steal/rape because they aren’t saved? Are the saved okay to murder/steal/rape because of grace?
Let’s think about what this tells victims….
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If children are taught, indoctrinated, conditioned to believe they are totally depraved, profoundly broken, vipers in diapers, & law makes them sin THEN their actions will show that. That is the value of themselves & others they were taught. And their consciences are clouded, it’s not their fault in this value system.
Love of God, self, others are the values to instill. That is the right message. To do love God, self, others is to keep the law.
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“Confused. Was there no such thing as sin before the law was written in tablet stone? Cain murdered Abel before the 10 commandments were written down. Does that mean he didn’t sin?
Law doesn’t CAUSE us to sin. As if something outside of us makes us do wrong. It is a matter of personal choice. A decision.”
it was instructive for me to look at historical context. the law was given after they were rescued from Egypt where they had mingled with the pagans (who had tons of gods) for a long time. We all know how that works. They were supposed to be God’s people shining a light to the pagan world of who God is. Instead they became like the pagans. IMO, the detailed law would cause them to have to think about or consider Yahweh all the time! :o)
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Tullian admitted that it was year ago that he said something to Don Carson, co-founder of TGC, in regards to being pretty disturbed with Carson’s support of Mahaney. Then Tullian finds out via a friend that TGC has been talking about him for the past year.
TGC doesn’t have a problem with Tullian’s theology. That’s a red herring, as is wanting to have debates about the third use of the law. They have a problem that he isn’t nuanced.
Luther believed we are only saints positionally, and we are still sinners personally. We don’t change, only our status changes. It’s Luther’s Simul iutus et peccator “At the same time righteous and a sinner.” This is something that John Piper has said most Christians aren’t ready for yet. But Tullian gets up there and preaches that Christians are totally depraved. When Matt Chandler and David Platt have said the same thing, the YouTubes get pulled. You can’t control Tullian like that, can you.
Why are the leaders silent in the face of child sexual abuse? Because “We are all just sinners saved by grace.” That’s not the truth. A sinner is a unrepentant person who sins continually. The Bible never, never, never identifies Christians as wicked in the present tense. Romans 7:24 is usually cited to make that case that Christians are still “wretched,” but the word actually means to persevere in the midst of affliction. The Bible refers to Christians as “righteous,” “holy,” “full of goodness,” and “able.”
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“IMO, the detailed law would cause them to have to think about or consider Yahweh all the time! :o)” Lydia
Exactly! Bingo! It doesn’t turn us away from God. Good action (avoiding bad action) brings us closer to God… for God IS good.
Detailed law written on our hearts (like don’t murder, steal) is good for us to follow. To keep it is good. Even better is action stemming from love, which will by default keep the law.
Rules made by man (like don’t watch the movie Frozen or hold hands before marriage) are fake & pretend. The pharisees loved these rules which “officially” deemed them holy. The law of God on their hearts, not so much. They plotted to murder Jesus, they were no keepers of God’s law.
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“TGC doesn’t have a problem with Tullian’s theology. That’s a red herring, as is wanting to have debates about the third use of the law. They have a problem that he isn’t nuanced.”
Carmen, you are very astute. And right. If doctrine were the issue they would never have joined up with Keller who is OE. Nor Driscoll who is vulgar and teaches all sorts of bizarre things. They formed a big tent for Reformed brand because numbers are the key for speaking gigs, books, etc.
Tullian, like Driscoll, goes off the reservation and it is too independent.. There is also the problem with his brother, Boz being a big thorn in their side.
(Guys like Mohler have to be careful because the SBC that pays him well would not accept the antinomianism that is really the obvious result of that teaching. So they are quick to say we are responsible for our sin but yet are controlled 24/7. They sell it with a fancy term: Compatiblism that says free will and determinism are compatible. I know, I know)
I am glad Tullian spoke out, finally,. But also wish he had been public about his disagreement when Carson, Justin Taylor, etc put up a statement on TGC defending Mahaney last year. They acted as if they were speaking for the entire organization. I wish we would have known then what names said they disagreed. So far, it sounds like only Tullian. It will be interesting to see if other names now jump on that bandwagon since the tide is turning.
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I”’ve got too much homework and my brain is not in gear, but I do not get this latest article by Wilson. Would someone speak in clear English and tell me what he’s trying to say? http://t.co/nhBip1MCYr”
I’ve got a couple alternate translations:
1. “Pay no attention to the child rapist behind the church curtain! Is time for two minutes hate on sodomites, comrades!”
2. “Will no one think of the real victims in all these patrio/macho christian sex scandals! The poor dear leaders whose authority and doctrine is being undermined!”
no, make that three alternates:
3. “My worldview really has nothing of comfort to say to a teenager whose father let her brothers rape her for years, so I’m going to yell ‘Look, a sodomite'” and hope you won’t notice.”
Seriously though, I’ve been thinking for a while now that the responses to the recent abuse scandals really demonstrate the “Moral Foundations” theory of Jonathan Haidt:http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind
According to Haidt, the moral foundations are Care/harm, Fairness/cheating, Loyalty/betrayal, Authority/subversion, Purity/Degradation, and Liberty/Oppression.
He thinks liberals tend to rely more on Care/harm, whereas religious conservatives use all six. I would say that when it comes to sexual morality, the extreme Patrios like Wilson rely more on the Purity and Authority foundations than the Care/harm foundation, and that is how they can equate raping a four year old with consensual adult sex. Whereas I think most people here, even if quite conservative on other matters, are looking at abuse more through a Care/harm lens.
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“Exactly! Bingo! It doesn’t turn us away from God. Good action (avoiding bad action) brings us closer to God… for God IS good.”
And what happened? Corrupt Priests…the religious leaders of the time corrupted the law!
History tends to repeat itself in some variation. It all boils down to some people who use God for their own advantage
Jesus reserved his most harsh words for the “religious” leaders from his own tribe–the Jews.. We could learn from that. Many of them were frauds who had set themselves apart, best seats, wanted to be honored and obeyed, etc.
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