Street Evangelism, Tony Miano

Street Evangelist Tony Miano Arrested Yet Again: Is it about his story or His story?

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Street evangelist Tony Miano was arrested again, this time in Scotland for breach of peace and “homophobic aggravation.”  Is this modern-day persecution?

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I ask all who follow Cross Encounters Ministries and/or visit this website to pray not only for me, but for Christians around the world that are facing various forms of persecution, most far more serious than what I experienced in Scotland, as they lovingly and boldly proclaim the gospel to a lost and dying world. ~Tony Miano

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Did Tony Miano just say that he is being persecuted?  Really?  Well, I disagree with him and will show you why, using Miano’s own words.  The sad part is that many people are so trusting of the title “street evangelist” and get hyped up when they read about Christians getting arrested. They assume that the story is about someone really being persecuted for sharing the Gospel.

Let me fill you in on what has happened last week in case you missed it.

Street evangelist Tony Miano was arrested last week. You may recall, last summer he was arrested in Wimbledon for “homophobic” speech, but later was released and charges dismissed.  This time, he was arrested and held for approximately 28 hours in Dundee, Scotland:

Christian Legal Centre client, Tony Miano, was arrested this week after a woman complained that he had spoken about sexual sin.

The Christian street evangelist was remanded in custody overnight and later released on bail to appear before Dundee Sheriff’s Court on 22nd April.

Tony, who is a former Los Angeles Deputy Sheriff, was arrested on 8th January on a charge of alleged breach of peace with “homophobic” aggravation.

He was part of a street preaching team holding a week-long mission in Scotland. (Article from Christianconcern.com)

Anytime we hear of Christians getting arrested, we typically have responses like:

What are the implications of this kind of arrest for Christians in the States?

The government is taking away our right to free speech.

They are taking away our right to say that homosexuality is a sin.

When will this happen in our own country?

Here are some responses seen in social media:

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Tony Miano, Street Evangelist, Arrest, Miano 2014-01-09 at 5.12.16 PMSource

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 Some amazing saints are on the front lines of battle, but is Miano one of them?

Real persecution does not involve drawing attention to oneself by tweeting, asking for interviews, blasting social media with your arrest story that you could have prevented by being a decent human being and respecting your social surroundings, the political climate of your host country, and by speaking in a reasonable level of volume.

I’ve been watching Tony Miano from a distance for a while – especially because he has the same disturbing behavioral characteristics of others I am familiar with  – people who are possibly doing more damage for Christ than good.

If you look back on Miano’s social media, you can see that he pretty much predicted his plight and chose it, all the while, pleading for donations to continue his “ministry.”  The pleading for donations is not uncommon.

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Screen Shot 2014-01-11 at 10.25.38 PM

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Let me back up a bit and give you a chronological timeline.

July 2013 –   Miano was arrested in Wimbledon

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Tony Miano arrest, Street Preacher, Persecution Screen Shot 2014-01-13 at 1.15.03 PM July 3, 2013

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In the previous tweet, we see the name Josh Williamson.  Josh Williamson is the pastor with whom Miano just visited in Scotland.  They’ve been friends for a while.  Pastor Josh Williamson, also a street evangelist, tweeted about his buddy, Miano’s arrest.

August 2013 – Miano obviously had a good idea of the political climate in the country of Scotland when he tweeted this:

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Miano 2014-01-10 at 2.59.38 PM
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September 2013 –  Miano’s friend, Pastor Josh Williamson, is arrested in Scotland, not once, but TWICE in one week.  Again, Miano identifies the threat he knows he will encounter in Scotland.

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These guys are two peas in a pod.  They are both very interested in drawing attention to the arrest.  Here is Miano tweeting after the first arrest:

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Screen Shot 2014-01-12 at 10.43.18 PM

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And after the second arrest, Miano tweeted this.  Note that he uses the hashtag, #Persecution!

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Source
Source

 

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After Williamson was arrested, guess who interviewed him on his radio show?  His friend, Tony Miano:

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I think it’s time for a Spurgeon intermission quote.  I’m pretty sure these guys love Spurgeon. It’s a good quote:

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Never talk of what you have done, but go on to something else. An officer rode up to his general, and said, “Sir, we have taken two guns from the enemy.” “It is well,” said the general, “take two more.” ~C.H. Spurgeon

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Back to the timeline.

November 2013 – Ok, this is a bit odd – only two months before his arrest in Scotland, Miano penned an article entitled, “Hello Officer!” – Interacting with Law Enforcement and Security. Miano, shows his audience how to prepare in advance so you do not get arrested for street evangelism in new locations. It’s almost as if he a prophet predicting his upcoming arrest!

Here’s a snippet from the article:

Do Your Homework

. . . When open-air preaching, pick an area on public property upon which a gathered crowd will not impede the free flow of pedestrian and/or vehicle traffic. Check for local ordinances that may lawfully regulate aspects of free speech exercise (i.e. amplification, displays, etc).  . . .

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January 2014:  Tony goes to Scotland and teams up with his friend Pastor Josh Williamson of Craigie Reformed Baptist Church.

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It should come as no surprise that street evangelist Tony Miano was arrested.

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Again, Miano knew there was a good probability of an arrest, having widely reported his friend’s arrests in Scotland earlier.  They are both cut of the same cloth as far as street preaching style goes:  volume level, places to preach, etc.  These kinds of persecution stories go viral on social media and it started immediately from Miano’s friends before the news media got the story.  Miano’s volunteer sent this out notice out:

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Miano 2014-01-08 at 10.05.25 AM

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The tweets start rolling in.  I know how to tune a violin, please pass me a violin now so I may accompany as you read the following:

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Editor note:  I removed a tweet here by request. The tweeter no longer supports Miano. 12/18/14

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Tony Miano, street evangelism, arrest, Scotland, persecution Screen Shot 2014-01-13 at 1.18.28 PM

 January 8, 2014

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Valor?  Courage in the face of danger?  No, Miano created his own conflict and he knew that going in.  This is no man of valor, this is a man addicted to public media attention and uses Christ to get that attention.  Who is getting the glory here, Christ or Miano?

Ok, so now at Craigie Reformed Church, they have a little dilemma. Their guest is in prison. But their ministry was to do outreach with Miano this particular evening.  What’s a Christian to do?   I’ll let you read:

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Miano 2014-01-10 at 11.10.16 AM

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My darn A string just broke.  Does anyone have a spare violin string I can borrow?   I wanted to accompany for the prison visit.  I guess I can just play with three strings.

So let’s get this straight.  Here is the purpose of the outreach straight from the Love Scotland website:

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So Miano, knowing the political climate of Scotland and their free speech issues, of his own volition, without any coercion,  asks for donations to be able to take this trip possible, is arrested for breach of peace, spends time in jail, and they CANCEL the outreach that evening??? As if Miano is the only one who can do the outreach?

“I, the persecuted street evangelist, was in prison, and you came to visit me,” JAS translation.

In the meantime, the media picked up the story.  Those mean police in Scotland arrested Miano and the world is watched this violation of free speech, religious persecution, and intolerance.  What is the world coming to?!  Seriously!

Included are articles from the US, UK, and Canada:

American Cop-Turned-Evangelist Arrested in Scotland for Preaching That Homosexuality Is a Sin, The Blaze

Street evangelist arrested after preaching about sexual sin, Christian Today

US street preacher Tony Miano arrested in Scotland, Voice of the Persecuted

US street preacher Tony Miano arrested in Dundee, The Courrier.Co.UK

American Street Preacher arrested again in Britain, Canada Free Press

Police Arrest US Street Preacher in Scotland for Calling Homosexuality a Sin, The Christian Post

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Josh Williamson later updated his Facebook page:

Miano 2014-01-09 at 8.28.37 AM

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Did you notice it says “he has been bailed.”  Wait a minute.    What’s that about?   A bigger question is:  who is paying the money for him to go back in April?  Donors?

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Ok, well, it seems that now that Miano was bailed, things are back to normal.  But what does normal mean to an evangelist?  One might think it means drawing attention to Jesus and His work, right?  Well, not so for Miano.  His social media behavior shows otherwise.  Now I don’t doubt that he had a time of preaching, but it’s important to take a look at what his social media behavior shows as a representative of Christ, too, right (on his donors’ dime)?

Meanwhile:

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Miano 2014-01-09 at 11.21.24 AM

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I read there were 47 people in attendance.  But then we get this report from Tony:

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Miano 2014-01-09 at 11.03.26 AM

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For a guy who is “evangelizing” in a foreign country with the bill footed by donations, it’s astonishing to see the amount of  time he spends telling his story instead of His Story.  Are we supposed to feel sorry for the man who lost sleep because he chose to go to a country in which he knew there was a likelihood of him getting arrested if he talked about a controversial subject?

Does Gospel evangelism necessitate the discussing of controversial subjects?  No!  

If his ultimate goal is Gospel outreach, how is he going to win souls for Christ behind bars for crossing those controversial lines?  This business about “I was just sharing about sin and was discussing sexual immorality” – – um, no, he was pushing the hot buttons that he knew already existed in his host country.

Drama, people, it’s all about the drama, and here is more of Tony to make sure you get the story – all of the story – from many sources – because we know that “his story” aka the Miano arrest story is the most important agenda on a gospel outreach trip, with a little sprinkling of: pray for me and the souls who will hear me and my story once I get out of prison for words that I chose to utter publicly in this host country.  Spare me.

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Screen Shot 2014-01-11 at 10.27.49 PM

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But wait, there’s more.  After losing a whole day that could have been spent in outreach, you’d think he’d want to make up for lost time, but instead of doing Gospel outreach, he spend time arguing with someone who called him homophobic on Twitter – – because that’s sharing the love of Christ, right?

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https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/status/422133127759151104

Another quick Spurgeon break:

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So much remains to be accomplished that we have no time to consider what has been done. ~C.H. Spurgeon

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While I was compiling the links to the news articles, I almost missed it, but there it was. Tony Miano was obviously spending time looking up his own story because I found two comments from him in a Canadian news article. Could it be that he made it part of his daily routine in Scotland to check out Canadian news?  And then he just “happened” to find an article about himself on his way out the door to evangelize?

Well, here it is and take note that the first comment was 19 hours from my screenshot, but notice the second comment was from the time of the screen shot.  

So, that means he came back to the article twice to defend his “persecuted” self.   Yea, the man is pretty obsessed with himself and defending himself because that’s how persecuted Christians behave.  :::yawn::::

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Screen Shot 2014-01-12 at 8.03.45 AM
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I actually have more than twice the amount of screen shots and links than you see on this article, but I think the point has been made.  We need to do our homework and look at the public behavior and discern ourselves, not just by the news media which loves to cover the popular Christian persecution slant, but by the evidence of their own words in their everyday dealings with people.

Note to Miano:  Your social media trail is giving you away.

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Related article:

Why Tony Miano really got arrested, again

Update:  A reader notified me to let me know that bail $$ is not required in Scotland, so I updated that part of the post.  Thanks much!

311 thoughts on “Street Evangelist Tony Miano Arrested Yet Again: Is it about his story or His story?”

  1. Lydia (22. 12:06pm) I too am worried. Yes, the business landscape is being stripped of everything but conglomerates. Frankly, our economists are awful—they think they are scientific but they aren’t and their silly models have made a huge mess of things, and not only here but across the globe. Our gov’t officials are corrupted by lobbyists and campaign obligations, no longer listening to the will of the public. I also don’t know why the citizenry isn’t gathering together to change it. I talk to everyone I know, and I wait….

    I am most worried for our kids’ generation.

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  2. JA,

    Well, first of all, I would advise her to leave her church that is full of phony compassion-less Christians, inviting her to my church. A real Christian (As opposed to “TRUE” Christians) would take her in to their own house, and take on the babysitting, etc., in order for this woman to get on her feet again…without asking for anything in return. No reimbursements for bus fares, taxi, electricity, cable tv, internet, hamburger buns, toilet paper, lip stick, etc. Real Christians would help this woman. There is a huge difference between “CHURCH”, and Christians. Church places rules that God didn’t. Christians help people, regardless of rules.

    Ed

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  3. Ed,
    Hands on service to those in need IS better than government. But it may not be enough in every circumstance. Health insurance did not exist until invented by a hospital (Baptist, in Dallas) in the post WWII timeframe. And medical care was a lot less expensive — the annual inflation rate for medical care is more than twice the general inflation rate since 1950 and doctors don’t accept produce anymore.

    But Matthew 25 is why I live in a house in desperate need of repair, and spend most of my work time (more than 60 hours a week) doing legal work for poor people (e.g., widow with five kids about to lose her home b/c a prior landlord was ticked that he did not get the rent on time when her husband was dying in the hospital after a wreck, and after he died but before she got money from SSA for her children, all of which happened less than a year ago. And for a long time, people knew they could come to my door (I work out of my house to keep costs down) and I would give them sandwiches — ham or bologna — two per adult and one per young child, and something to drink. So I do not tithe to any church, I meet my obligation in person, with my time and with food. Now our neighborhood as a few fewer poor people, so I do not get to make sandwiches as often. But I still pay most who offer to work $10 for an hour of raking leaves or using my mower on the lawn, even if it doesn’t really need it.

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  4. Chapmaned24 (12:15pm), I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I know we don’t have a theocracy (and I don’t want one), but from what you write, it seems that you want one because you don’t consistently separate the ideals of the church from those of the state.

    Perhaps you are drawing some principles of how our society should function from the Old Testament, which was about a theocracy?

    You write that the Declaration of Independence was to help us avoid theocracy, but then you say that the nation was founded by Christians and Buddhists didn’t do the work of it. That sounds a little cranky.

    Look, as we both know, this nation’s documents were written by wealthy brilliant Deists. They wanted a society that would work for all, no matter what faith. Insofar as its foundations are also influenced by the Christian religion (especially in the Bill of Rights) well, that is a generous gift from God to all. It is certainly not something that we Christians can draw on as if something is owed us for it.

    We citizens, all of us, religious or not, need to be involved in our democratic republic. It is our responsibility! We do not want religions involved in gov’t nor gov’t involved in religions, but we humans wear various hats and two of them are citizen and church member.

    The gov’t doing charity is not usurping the church’s responsibility. It does so because we have decided that as a society, we are obliged to care for those among us who can’t care for themselves. This is an ethical principle that shows up many places, not only in Christianity.

    Instead of feeling usurped, the church could look at these gov’t programs with delight, working to ensure they stay true as well as picking up where the gov’t doesn’t/can’t reach. The church could also see it as an opportunity to focus time/energy on helping people get out of poverty: “teaching to fish” kind of stuff. But instead, there’s a tendency to indulge in juvenile argument, “you can’t do that I can too no you can’t yes I can”. Why? I don’t get it.

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  5. An Attorney,

    What you do is great, and commendable. I do not wish to debate what you do. However, our government cannot sustain us. Our debt is way too high. We are broke. We need to “re-think”, or transliterate that quotation to the Greek, “repent”, in how we do things as a government. Health Insurance is a business…or at least it was before Obama got his hands on it. It should stay a business. And we should note that heath insurance is not equated to health care. Like I said previously, Matthew 25 is not for the government. The government is not judged on judgment day. You are.

    Again, our government check book is in the hole. I filed bankruptcy back in 96…oh, that is a biblical concept, by the way. Since then, I have no credit. I don’t want credit, either. I live within my means. I can’t go in the hole. And that is the way that I like it. If I don’t have something, so be it. I live without it. Somewhere down the line, our government skewed from the founding fathers intent. There are three branches of government because of God. And we have departed God’s way of doing business. To think that government is the answer to our problems, instead of solving our own problems, then we have a problem. If our government cannot afford to buy a coca cola, how is it that our government is spending money that it doesn’t have? What did God say about being a good Steward of Money?

    Deuteronomy 15:6 New International Version
    For the LORD your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.

    Yep, them Old Israelite Papers. Are we a blessed nation still? I wonder. If no, why? If yes, why?

    Ed

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  6. Patrice said:
    “it seems that you want one because you don’t consistently separate the ideals of the church from those of the state.”

    My response:
    You are right…I don’t. I never will, either. If you separate God from our government, then we are no different than the worst form of government out there. Freedom is definitely defined different between you and I.

    Have you actually read the Declaration of Independence? Yes or No?

    There is a good story in 2 Kings chapters 22 and 23 you might want to read:

    Chapter 22 verse 8:
    8 And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.

    You will find that if you do things God’s way, you are blessed. If you do things your way, you are not blessed. Even in Government.

    We say “God Bless America” for a reason. Why?

    Ed

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  7. Patrice:

    Read the Declaration of Independence and stop listening to the Atheist version…the revised version of our founding documents.

    I disagree with your take on the founding documents. Most who take your side do as much minimizing the God quotes as much as possible, making our founding say something that it doesn’t say.

    YOUR side thinks that we are discussing a theocracy.

    And, I stand by what I said…Buddhists did not come here from England. Christians did. I don’t care how that sounds to you. It’s true. And, all this talk about Deists I’ve heard before. False allegations. George Washington preached God in the White House. George Washington preached God to his troops. Our Congress starts off its day with a prayer from a Chaplain. I could go on and on.

    Ed

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  8. chapmaned wrote, “A real Christian (As opposed to “TRUE” Christians) would take her in to their own house, and take on the babysitting, etc., in order for this woman to get on her feet again…without asking for anything in return. No reimbursements for bus fares, taxi, electricity, cable tv, internet, hamburger buns, toilet paper, lip stick, etc….”

    Oh I wish there were many Christians like that! There aren’t. So what do we do?

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  9. chapmaned: I wrote: “it seems that you want one because you don’t consistently separate the ideals of the church from those of the state.”

    You responded: “You are right…I don’t. I never will, either. If you separate God from our government, then we are no different than the worst form of government out there. Freedom is definitely defined different between you and I.”

    Yes. That is why I said you want a theocracy.

    Of course I’ve read the Declaration of Independence. And the Constitution and Bill of Rights. These are gorgeous documents which make me proud to be part of my nation. I wish we still followed them.

    You seem to think that no other human group can understand the nature of freedom or fair/open governance. That is not accurate. You forget that the laws of God are written on all humans’ heart and many can see what is healthiest and best for life. Christianity is not the only place to find truth. All truth is God’s truth, wherever it is, and it is in many places across this world. It is because of these laws written on the human heart that we can appeal to justice and mercy and have everyone understand the essentials of what they are.

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  10. chapmaned, follow-up. I want to clarify that I believe Christianity to be the place to find the most complete truth on spiritual issues. Embodied in the life/actions of Christ. But Christianity carries many truths that are also found elsewhere.

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  11. Patrice, I don’t think that you have grasped that in the Declaration of Independence that it is clearly stated that it is the governments responsibility to secure God given rights. Do you acknowledge God given rights, or is that just a figure of speech to you? You say that I forget that the laws of God are written on all humans hearts? Really? From where do you get that bible quote? You say that all truth is God’s Truth. Great…but whose version of truth is truer? Yours? Jesus is the Word of God (LOGOS) of God, and the Bible is God’s Word. Are you following Jesus, or are you following your form of a no God allowed government?

    If it was as easy as you say, then there would be no need to GO YE and spread the gospel…we would automatically all know it. Come on Patrice. I’ve seen all the arguments before. I love debate, and controversies. What you say is like a mass produced pamphlet. Do you know how many times that I have read on the internet and heard from others long before the internet the following: “Religion was invented by man to control the masses”. Wow…it’s as if they are all reading the same pamphlet.

    Ed

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  12. Of course the deist founding fathers preached God — deism is a belief in God, but not Jesus as the Christ and as God in the flesh.

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  13. “The gov’t doing charity is not usurping the church’s responsibility. It does so because we have decided that as a society, we are obliged to care for those among us who can’t care for themselves. This is an ethical principle that shows up many places, not only in Christianity. ”

    And I agree with it except that is not what we are doing. If we were caring for only those who “could not” care for themselves we would not be seeing generational welfare. In fact, now, the rich ARE getting richer and the middle class is shrinking…fast. Sound familiar?

    What I am seeing are middle aged people laid off who are now seeking the help they paid into for many years but being turned away. In my city food stamps have grown 40% over the last 5 years. There are 6000 people on a list for housing. It has not been this bad for a long time. But we cannot say anything about the policies leading to this because then we are accused of being racist or greedy. Because it has become so politically correct out there, we cannot even discuss how policy leads to certain outcomes.

    It would have been a lot cheaper to buy health insurance for the 30 million who had none. I was one of them for a while so I understand the concerns. But instead we have to take it over for everyone and change what they had. Now government is in control including the IRS. Everyone I know is paying more for less coverage and higher deductibles. In fact, legislation was passed that few read and even AFTER the law passed our dictator said he would change it because of the outcry. I could not believe my ears. That is not a representative democracy. And few said a word. it is now our normal.

    Without an expanding tax base of business, many people who need care are going to suffer with cuts or lack of increases as food and other prices rise. it is become a serious situation but people are afraid to say anything.

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  14. Someone on another blog made an excellent point about the Declaration vs French Revolution declaration.

    French said: Liberty, Fraternity, Equality.

    Ours says, Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness.

    See the problem? The French revolutionists were demanding “equality of outcome”. Everything equal. Like many do here— on the left. Which means there WILL eventually be an oligarchy.

    It did not take the French long.

    I happen to think most of the Founders were “Theists”. Very few make references to Jesus Christ in their writings. But most believed in a benevolent God.

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  15. An Attorney,

    I am not disputing the definition of deism. I am disputing that the founding fathers were deists. That claim is used as a tool to minimize the founding father’s intent of this nation being founded upon the principals of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Freedom that is instituted of the Freedom that only Jesus gives. That is the Freedom that America was founded on. Freedom to worship God by our own conscious, and not as a means to depart from God as a nation, or a government. Separation of Church and state was redefined by a misconception of what Thomas Jefferson meant in a letter to a Baptist Church. Some believe that he told them, and I am paraphrasing, “Christians, stay out of government business!”, when in fact, he was saying that the STATE was going to stay out of Church business. A theocracy is when the STATE dictates to the church…a theocracy is NOT when the church dictates to the state. The Church…at the time…was the PEOPLE, and the PEOPLE was the government. And all those so called deists were indeed Christians…all having different doctrines that did not agree with each other. So be it…but they where Christians none the less. All who signed the Declaration of Independence were Christians, with differing doctrines. And the STATE was not going to dictate anything to the differing CHRISTIAN belief systems.

    Ed

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  16. Chapmaned, check Romans 2:14-16.

    On this earth, God doesn’t demand that people follow Him/Her. It won’t be settled out until Judgment Day. How then can you demand it?

    God-lovers obey the second great command “love others as ourselves”, partly by working for national governance that offers the best on justice, freedom, equality for all. That command for love isn’t only for our brothers/sisters but for everyone, generous with our knowledge as God is generous with common grace.

    Who said it was easy? And gee, you cannot tell from my many comments that I am a follower of Christ? You question it simply because we disagree on the nature of governance?

    And my words are a pamphlet? I think religion is for control of the masses? Why not just say “opiate”? I could say that you sound like a typical religious conservative re-tread but would that make you feel like talking further with me? I mean, if you want to end the conversation, the Christian method is to withdraw kindly and politely.

    Which I will now do since I don’t enjoy being ruded upon. I wish you well, chapmaned. You are my brother in Christ. I’m sure we’ll see each other more often on JA’s threads. Take care.

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  17. Patrice…I KNEW you were going to reference Romans 2. Very good. However, does the conscience of people tell them not to eat shell fish? Does the law written on their hearts tell them to stone a Sabbath Breaker? Do you see? There is a disparity. What is written is the BASICS, i.e., do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not lie…those are conscience items. The Law is a total of 613 laws, NOT written on the hearts of all people. Just the basics that make one feel guilt. The average non-Jew/non-Christian has no concept of the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy, for example. It is obvious that your Romans 2 is not inclusive of all 613 laws written on the hearts. If you read the rest of the chapter, you will see that Jesus judges the people of ignorance based on their conscience…and that is PART of the GOOD NEWS. The Law of Moses Judges those under the law…and the law was for the Jews. Those not under the law, are not judged by the law of Moses, but by their conscience. Gentile believers were already judged and Jesus took the punishment. Those who reject Jesus are judged by the law of Moses. That is what Romans Chapter 2 is about.

    Ed

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  18. Lydia, yah, Obamacare is a fiasco. The economics site I read regularly, “Naked Capitalism” (but it’s leftish) has been posting on it since before it came out this fall, and they have proven correct on every single disgusting item. Next we will discover that too many with pre-existing conditions are in it, compared to the healthy, which will tilt everything over, and the gov’t will pay out huge monies to the insurance companies while also leaving huge numbers of people paying that horrid fine, increasingly from what remains of the middle class (where there is a horrid hole of individual expense). It is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen. Truly.

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  19. Patrice,

    No, I do not get the feeling that you follow Christ. Sorry, but I am not getting the good vibes of a Christian Sister from you. If you were a Christian sister, you would GO YE AND SPREAD THE GOSPEL, knowing full and well that YOU will be hated for preaching Jesus. If you are loved for not preaching Jesus, then you aren’t preaching Jesus.

    If you LOVE your neighbor as yourself, then that means that you are NOT sinning at all, and yet, we all know that we are sinners until the day that we die.

    If we love, then we are not committing adultery, we are not stealing, we are not lying, etc. And, since we all do those things, we are not loving all the time. We are hypocrites if we say that we are loving our neighbor as ourselves.

    But, then again, loving your neighbor still does not negate out that Matthew 25 is what YOU do as an individual. Somehow, you think that Government is the one to turn to in time of need, rather than YOU taking responsibility out of your own pocket to help the poor. Yes, we have a difference in opinion on Governing.

    If people would OBEY God, rather than debate whether we are not a Christian nation, then we would be ambassadors of Christ. Jesus preached a LOT more than a speech he gave on the Mount. People seem to forget that.

    Ed

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  20. Chapmaned, ok, one last thing because, yes, exactly! It is the common grace form of law that is written on everyone’s hearts, enough to create basic governance. Not the whole kit&caboodle. The knowledge that leads to Christ is the rest, and comes via a person, the Holy Spirit.

    The law wasn’t only established to show our guilt, but also to help us understand what is good. This world was made good by God, and because of what’s written on our hearts, we can look around and find a great deal of what is good and true. This place is not totally corrupt. If it were, it would not continue but would collapse back into nothing.

    Ok, I intend to end this conversation now. I enjoyed talking with you. It’s good to review my own position. All the best to you, Ed.

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  21. Ed, since you feel so inclined to insult Patrice, I feel that I must share my impression of you. I get the feeling that you are one of those conservative Christians who like to take the high moral road by telling everyone else they are wrong if they don’t behave/think the same as you. Sorry, but that’s not the way to encourage respectful discourse. When you start tossing power words around like OBEY, you lose your audience. Please keep in mind that many who comment on this Blog are very sensitive to high-minded commands. Peace, brother – chill out.

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  22. Ed, my judgmental brother, you are much mistaken and that is very sad!

    Look, I am quite ill but I do what I can. I am alone and yet deliberately moved into Detroit City, buying an inexpensive house in a neighborhood that has great need of stable people. I hire neighbor kids to do my yardwork and teach them how to do it as a small business. In the process, I teach basic gardening. Kids visit quite a bit and we often talk about race issues—it just comes up because I’m the only white person around and they struggle with it. I also give regularly to the local charities because there is a lot of need. These are my very small contributions. Think of them as a widow’s mite from someone who also receives gov’t help for being genuinely disabled.

    Feel free to be embarrassed.

    And now I’m truly finished with this conversation.

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  23. Carmen, Carmen…Is the word “obey” in the Bible? Is it in the New Test? If I repeat what is written, then why bash the messenger? This is the same treatment that the Duck Dynasty guy got for preaching 1 Corinthians. He got bashed for preaching hate. You see, people have a problem with the Apostle Paul, not the Duck Dynasty guy. Not only that, they really have a problem with God, not the Apostle Paul. The word “obey” is in the bible. And I do not feel the need to feel embarrassed about Jesus, or what he preached in Matthew 25 for individual’s to do from their own pocket book, not from the government.

    Ed

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  24. “It is the common grace form of law that is written on everyone’s hearts, enough to create basic governance. Not the whole kit&caboodle. The knowledge that leads to Christ is the rest, and comes via a person, the Holy Spirit.
    The law wasn’t only established to show our guilt, but also to help us understand what is good. This world was made good by God, and because of what’s written on our hearts, we can look around and find a great deal of what is good and true. This place is not totally corrupt.”

    Patrice, I loved what you said here!
    You have no idea… but I have been trying for a while to form my thoughts into words about this & you did it wonderfully. Thank you! High fives, sista! 🙂

    This understanding has gone missing in the Christianity taught today.

    I’m pocketing this, if that’s okay with you.

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  25. Ed – – time to take a chill pill. I’ve been away for a bit and only took a brief look. It looks like you pulled a Miano on my blog (deeming someone as an unbeliever). No can do, bro!!

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  26. A Mom, take it away. This debate was clarifying for me, too.

    I am beginning to think that many Christians mistake this world for hell, as if God is completely absent from it. This makes them either stay away altogether or feel the need to foist their own world onto it, their world which they believe contains God.

    This could partly explain the disdain for science as well as psychology. (All fields of study, I suppose, outside theology.) It also might be what encourages some to grab whatever they want from discoveries “out there” without regard for who/what/why, since they see it as all just corrupt anyway. Maybe it also partly explains a creeping disregard for facts.

    It’s as if reality is hell. lol Which it is, sometimes, but not for the reasons they think. I find it deeply disturbing.

    I had to go away from the church community to find God again. S/He’s out there everywhere, upholding this world with His/Her breath, dancing among the atoms and across the galaxies, around and over and inside the broken places. It is God’s world, yet, and how glad I am of it!

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  27. Patrice…I do not find those words in the Bible that you speak of. S/He?

    I have a bible quote from you.

    One, Jesus told some people that their father was the devil. That means that Jesus is saying that God is not their father. In other words, not everyone is a child of God. There is only one way to be a child of God.

    Romans 8:16
    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    Romans 9:8
    That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    I say this to indicate that I hear many people claim that we are all children of God. But that is not true.

    I find that if I quote Bible, then I am being vilified as someone who just doesn’t conform to the liberal mindset of Christianity. I don’t. When I was in the US Navy, and I saluted that flag every morning at colors, I gave reverence to God, not to man. That flag meant something to me, and that flag is missing in today’s school system. Our children take this nation for granted, and why? Because someone said that this nation is not a Christian Nation, and look at where our morals have gone since.

    I am passionate about God, and I don’t apologize to the liberal god believers. OK, so Patrice believes in God. So did Ghandi. Which one did he believe in? The Lord? Which God does Patrice follow? A couple of sentences of what Jesus said?

    Science, huh? Can science prove the existence of God? No. I rest my case on science.

    With respect,

    Ed

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  28. “Well, first of all, I would advise her to leave her church that is full of phony compassion-less Christians, inviting her to my church. A real Christian (As opposed to “TRUE” Christians) would take her in to their own house, and take on the babysitting, etc., in order for this woman to get on her feet again…without asking for anything in return. No reimbursements for bus fares, taxi, electricity, cable tv, internet, hamburger buns, toilet paper, lip stick, etc. Real Christians would help this woman. There is a huge difference between “CHURCH”, and Christians. Church places rules that God didn’t. Christians help people, regardless of rules.” Ed C.

    Ed, I don’t think you get Patrice at all. Furthermore, I don’t get good vibes (like from what you said above) from you when you respond to Patrice this way:

    “Sorry, but I am not getting the good vibes of a Christian Sister from you. If you were a Christian sister, you would GO YE AND SPREAD THE GOSPEL, knowing full and well that YOU will be hated for preaching Jesus. If you are loved for not preaching Jesus, then you aren’t preaching Jesus.” Ed C.

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  29. A Mom,

    You are right. I went a little too far, and I heed the words of Julie Anne, and you. My typing fingers did not want to moderate my thoughts. Having said that, I’ve debated on the blogs that are designed for debate for quite some time, and it is easy to define the liberal Christians vs. the conservative ones, and there is a huge difference between the two. Take for example my last comment. There are many liberal Christians who state that “we are all children of God”, which includes the non-believers as well, and that just isn’t true. Most liberal Christians that I debate believe that active homosexuals are Christians. Even liberal Jews believe that active homosexuality is OK with God. But the Bible tells us otherwise, which got the Duck Dynasty guy in trouble with the liberals, yes, even the liberal Christians. Most liberal Christians adhere to the Sermon on the Mount, and not much else. Now, in regards to judging, we are indeed allowed to judge. The judge not, lest ye be judged is often used to shut people like me up. But it does not say, Don’t Judge. It states to not judge unless you are prepared to be judged yourself. I am prepared.

    The Apostle Paul tells us about these things. Those who are outside the church, God judges, but those who are inside the church, all of us are to judge. Not only that, as the late great Martin Luther King Jr. stated, we are to judge the content of a person’s character, and not judge the color of skin.

    Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but the Word of God shall never pass away.

    So, what we have is that the liberal Christian picks part of the bible that they like, and runs with it, and they ditch the remaining words. Jesus said a lot more than the Sermon on the mount, and Matthew 25.

    Now, I think it is great that Patrice gets her social security from the government. My argument is this: How does that equate to Matthew 25? It doesn’t. Liberal Christians think that they can legislate charity. When a person legislates charity, that does not come from the heart at all. That comes from the letter of the law. Therefore, I stand by my statements that Matthew 25 is not for government use, it is for individual use. Patrice is exempt from this as she is the person in need. So I am NOT saying that Patrice needs to give what she doesn’t have. As she noted, she indeed gives. She used the term “widows mite”. I respect that big time. This reminds me of the old woman who gave all she had…a penny, and that penny was more valuable than the much money that the rich gave.

    She mentions, however, that she had to leave church to find God. All I used was a bible for many years before I had the nerve to enter a church. There was just way too many questions in regards to belief systems between denominations for me to adhere to. I had to find out why such and such denomination believed one way, while it is denounced in another denomination, and they believe in another way.

    Patrice talked about the big word TRUTH. She said: ” But Christianity carries many truths that are also found elsewhere.” Well, Jesus said that He is the Truth. There is no truth outside of him. He is the “I Am”, which means that he is the God of the old Ancient Israelites that most liberal Christians dismiss.

    Like I said, I do not apologize for my stance, but admit that I went a bit too far.

    A Mom, you have known me on here. I have been here since the beginning, and I take a break now and again due to work. I ruffle a few feathers at times. I never would have said what I did in your last paragraph had she not asked me the following: “you cannot tell from my many comments that I am a follower of Christ?”

    My response is what got me in trouble. If I would have said yes, then I would be OK with everyone. But I spoke my heart.

    She also states:

    On this earth, God doesn’t demand that people follow Him/Her. It won’t be settled out until Judgment Day. How then can you demand it?

    I respond with this: However, Jesus did demand that we all Go Ye and Preach the Gospel to every creature. We don’t just sit on our butts and say that it will be settled on Judgment day.

    She also mentions “common grace”. God’s Grace is NOT common. It is a gift given to those who, oh, can I say this word? OBEY him. We are to OBEY the gospel. The Bible states that. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. If it were so common, then the proud would have it.

    Yes, there is MAJOR differences between a liberal Christian, and a Conservative one. The WHOLE word of God is not being taught by or to the liberal Christian. Just the Sermon on the Mount, and a couple of other sentences. The rest is ditched, written off as OLD Israelite stuff, not useful for today.

    Ed

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  30. Legislated charity is not charity at all. It’s a government “Entitlement”. Entitlements are not charity. Entitlements have rules and regulations. Charity doesn’t. Social Security is an entitlement based on the letter of the law.

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  31. “Now, I think it is great that Patrice gets her social security from the government. My argument is this: How does that equate to Matthew 25? It doesn’t. Liberal Christians think that they can legislate charity. When a person legislates charity, that does not come from the heart at all. That comes from the letter of the law”

    She probably paid into, too. So it is her right. But, SS is a HORRIBLE deal. One would have been better off with a safe annunity and insurance because then one is not relying on the next generation to pay for us who won’t have it. SS is a pyramid scheme. There will come a day when it won’t be there for those who counted on it.

    However, my mom receieved SS for me when my dad died because I was a pre teen. It was horrible and hardly worth the trouble because it rarely came. They were constantly making mistakes and we spent more time going there to get it straightened out over a period of 6 years. It was ridiculous.

    That stuff is for folks who dont work. If one works, one cannot sit at those places for hours. A friend of mine(single mom) went for food stamps because she lost her job and had to take a much lower paying job. By the time she had gone through the enture process only to be told NO (because her income was 50 bucks a year too much even though she is losing her home) she had spent over 30 hours on it and had to miss 4 days of work to go sit and wait to be seen. And she is paid by the hour. That is government “help”. It is not working for some who really need it.

    Why continue to support and promote programs that are not working well? We tend to look at the big picture and ignore the details so they become boondoggles that cannot be fixed becauseif you dare utter such a thing then you are accused of hating children and wanting people to starve.

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  32. But Patrice, you complained when it was explained that hospice care, which was not available under Medicare or Medicaid prior to 1978 (due to the law passed much earlier, before hospice care was available at all i the US), became available in 1978 because it was both more humane and less expensive, so that doctors or families can get hospice care for their loved one.

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  33. “But Patrice, you complained when it was explained that hospice care, which was not available under Medicare or Medicaid prior to 1978 (due to the law passed much earlier, before hospice care was available at all i the US), became available in 1978 because it was both more humane and less expensive, so that doctors or families can get hospice care for their loved one.”

    I have no idea the context you are using here to try and show I contradicted myself. I simply disagree with your views of more government control, more government tweaking of this or that. It is simply another way to control people just like so many complain about the fundy churches.

    Only we cannot opt out of government mandates. With the IRS involved it is going to become even worse. American are more than willing to give away their choices and I find that very sad.

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  34. I’m feeling very discouraged by the tenor of parts of this discussion. It seems that some would like nothing better than to do away with Social Security or Disability altogether, and that we should simply just “get a job”. Like Patrice, I am also on SSD. I did work for over 30 years. I served my country in the military (Air Force) for 10 years and then worked for the Post Office for an additional 13 years (with other forms of employment in between and prior to the military) in which I’ve walked 27 1/2 miles per day delivering mail in all kinds of weather conditions….until 8 years ago, when I had a grand mal on the workroom floor. It was discovered I had an inoperable tumor inside my brain stem. There are multiple other disabilities I also have besides the tumor/seizures. I cannot drive, so I cannot attend any church, even if I had one to go to. So what church is going to help me, support me, house me, care for me, feed me, provide transportation for me? I have no church. I have no one. If people like me lose our Disability, we die. Who cares? I do.

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  35. W4TT:

    Please don’t let what Ed or anyone else said cause you pain. Our churches are in such a mess that I thank God there is at least government who will help people such as yourself.

    I’m going to keep ranting about how hypocritical churches are and you just keep grounded in Him and do whatever you need to do to live as comfortably as possible. You answer to no one here.

    I just went to a Bible study and was encouraged by these words from Psalm 18. Hold them close to your heart, friend:

    Psalm 18:1-2 NLT
    [1] I love you, Lord; you are my strength. [2] The Lord is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.

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  36. Amen. Thank you for that Julie Anne. I really do miss church, and long for that. But more than that, I long to just go Home where I belong.

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  37. Waiting forthetrumpet2,

    I do wish I were near you, I would be honored to care for you, visit you and help you in any way I could. I can pray for you, and will.
    “The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. ” Numbers 6:24-26

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  38. Thank you so much for your words of kindness and prayers, Lyn. May God richly bless you.

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  39. Waiting for the trumpet 2,

    I’m very sorry that my words have hurt you. That was certainly not my intent. My debate in this only has been government entitlements equating to charity. What you receive, you are entitled to, and I certainly do not wish that SSI Disability payments be taken away from anyone who is entitled based on the law.

    Having said that, I wish to dedicate this song to you: (Where I belong)

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  40. What a powerful video, Ed, thank you so much. I also have one I would like to share here, but don’t know how to embed.

    I Love You Lord

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  41. Well, look what you did, WFTT2! 🙂

    Ed, that video was beautiful! Thank you and also for showing your soft side (I won’t tell Piper or Miano or CON, don’t worry.) Debates can be tricky to maneuver. Got a little teary-eyed reading the sincere thoughts to WFTT2. Love this place.

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  42. I’m sorry. Everytime I hear that song, I get tears in my eyes. I miss singing!!! I’ve sung in choirs since I was 4 years old, and now can no longer sing in my church choir….since I have no church now. Oh how I long to sing!!!! I can’t wait to sing before the Lord!

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  43. Actually, that was the wrong video…oops. I saved that to my playlist, too…but this is the actual video that I meant to post…Where I belong:

    This video is Named “Where I belong”, words used by WFTT2 (Sorry for the wrong one). I re-verified the link so this is correct.

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  44. Patrice –

    You are a tremendous blessing to your neighborhood. I pray the Lord gives you peace, strength, and healing. I’d love to see your garden and share a cup of tea.

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  45. Waiting4thetrumpet, I am glad for SSD, too. I am so grateful that we live in a country that (still) understands that sometimes citizens fall into awful circumstances and need help. Too many times families just don’t care. Too often the church doesn’t either. And even if my family or church understood, I require aid for the rest of my life and that is too big a pressure for smaller groups like families and congregations.

    How is your experience with SSD? I’ve found it efficient and prompt. I think Lydia’s family member might have been to a badly run office because I’ve never had a problem with them.

    Hang in there. Many times I’ve had to insist to myself that it is not for me to determine the day of my death, that I must leave it to God. But no one said I can’t think about heaven, and since scripture says it will be beyond our imagination, I exercise that imagination with abandon lol

    So for eg, while I do like singing in choirs, I also hope to learn to dance—my body is quite trashed right now and I want to learn all the dances there are (even if it takes the equivalent of 100 yrs) and then go on a line dance with anyone else who wants to do so, a line-dance around our galaxy. Do you like dancing? If so, I’d love to do that with you.

    And since heaven will be a new earth, I hope to become a red-tailed hawk and an eagle for a little while, so I can see how it feels to fly through woods and also ride the air currents. And if God will be about the business of making new life on new planets, I hope I can help Him/Her make a new animal on a new planet. w00t!

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  46. Bridget, thanks. I am not sure how much of a blessing I am, but I try. The kids are always open by nature and they haven’t the social rules (which I can’t fill very well since illnesses affect me willy-nilly, one day to the next).

    If you ever happen by Detroit, please do let me know. I’d love to sit for a cup of tea, and show you the small delights in this infamous corner of the world.

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  47. Chapmaned, you told JA and A Mom that you went too far but you left me out, towards whom you went too far.

    Being wrong isn’t nearly as awful as you assume. It happens and it is already covered by Christ’s work. Of course that doesn’t mean we go around sinning that grace may abound, but it does mean we needn’t feel reluctant to simply admit it and get on with living.

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  48. Patrice, I didn’t leave you out, for it was my conversation with you that I went to far. You were the subject of my “I went to far” write up.

    By the way, I have a sarcastic personality. I use that in my discourse with people…on purpose. I remember my dad and his brothers, when as a kid, we would go to my aunt and uncles house, and they would be around the kitchen table, arguing about anything and everything…say like…the death penalty. One brother against it, the other two for it. Wow…what a heated conversation. Voices raised, blood popping veins, etc. But those brothers were the closest brothers that I have ever seen. This was normal. My grandmother HATED that “normal”. She wanted peace and quiet, a more respectful tone, blah, blah. Me…I loved it.

    I say that to show that I do indeed have compassion for the down trodden. But, I do take my debates serious.

    In the navy, I was a payroll clerk. I know the bible much like I knew my profession. If ever I had a question, I looked up the answer in the book. My supervisor would never answer my questions. He wanted me to look it up for myself. He didn’t want me to rely on him for the answers. He wanted me to ask the question, and research the answer. He taught me well. So, I do not take the word of any theologian, or unlearned Christian. It’s easy for me to identify denominational speak. Just by what they say, I can usually tell what denomination that they belong to, without them revealing it.

    I am not an expert, but I know that I know more than most people that sit in the pews. They are Christians on Sunday only…well, ok, maybe on Wednesday night, too. But how much do they know about Jesus outside of those two days? Did, or do they do biblical research, or do they have time? A quick 2 minute prayer for meals isn’t researching the God that a person claims to follow. Believe me, I listen to what people say, and how they say it…then I go in with my argument, either for, or against. I will say…”That’s not true…and her is why”. People don’t like to be corrected. I’ve had discourse with real life pastors on this blog. Chuck Oneil is just one of a few pastors that I have spoken with, and I even told him on another blog, that he was a whack job, when he was being phony, inviting me for a cup of coffee to discuss these issues in regards to Julie Anne. I am not afraid to confront whack job preachers, even in live person.

    Do I sound arrogant? Yes…I know I do. But dig into my head, and you will see a person that knows what he is talking about. Many Christians that I know have no clue as to what the Bible states about anything. They just want to “Love people”. Wow…really? That isn’t good enough as far as I am concerned.

    Ed

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  49. Hi Lyn and A Mom,

    I posted a comment in reply earlier in the week but have only just realised that it didn’t post, something about double tapping on the cell phone.

    Can’t remember all I said, I’d read through your comment and thought about it for awhile, the main thing I wanted to convey was the words of somebody more intelligent than I, Tim Keller. “The gospel of justifying faith means that while Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning, yet in Christ, in God’s sight, they are accepted and righteous. So we can say that we are more wicked than we ever dared believe, but more loved and accepted in Christ than we ever dared hope — at the very same time. This creates a radical new dynamic for personal growth. It means that the more you see your own flaws and sins, the more precious, electrifying, and amazing God’s grace appears to you. But on the other hand, the more aware you are of God’s grace and acceptance in Christ, the more able you are to drop your denials and self-defenses and admit the true dimensions and character of your sin.

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  50. Patrice, the above is an example of what I was talking about:

    That’s not true, and here’s why:

    1 John 3:9

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Do you see the words “cannot” and doth not?

    For example, we are told to flee sexual immorality, not to continue in it, thinking that God accepts that behavior from us, just because we are human, and sinners. REPENT is the first thing one must do, and the Holy Spirit assists us (IF we are willing) to change us from the sinner to the saint.

    God does NOT expect us to keep on sinning. Struggling with sin is different than excusing sin. Drug addicts is a good example of those struggling with sin. But proper discipleship turns people away from sinning. They don’t condone it, nor excuse it. Accountability is missing in the above write up. A disciple will put those under them on a path that is righteous and good.

    I do not believe in “saving faith”. Saints are NOT wicked. Those who reject Jesus are wicked. Grace to Tim Keller is a lot different than what grace REALLY is.

    Ed

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  51. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    NOTE: VERSE 11 STATES THE WORD “WERE”, not “ARE”.

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  52. I noticed that Up North used that well famous Calvinistic only used term, “ad hominem” in his January 15, 2014 @ 5:39 post. Can I get some eggs with them hominy grits, please? I saw it in an ad.

    Up North said the following:

    January 15, 2014 @ 5:39 AM

    “Hi Lyn,

    I was not using the fact that Josh has been to sem as a validation for ministry… I’m a member of a denomination that has a habit of calling the trained rather than training the called… it’s one of my biggest bug bears. What I was trying to say is that Josh is not a new convert, he’s been a Christian for around ten years. The reference to sem was to say that he isn’t a man who was converted 6 months ago, it was not meant as a validation for ministry. I confess I did personally take exception to your comment about Josh’s age completely separately from the issue we’ve been discussing. As a young man myself I get sick and tired of hearing people say “you’re too young,” its an ad hominem fallacy, age has nothing to do with maturity,ability or capability.”

    To respond to this, what is an ELDER? Age does indeed have everything to do with Spiritual maturity. They ain’t called “Elders” for nothing. Having said that, I’ve had Mormon “ELDERS” visit me…age about in their early to mid 20’s. I laugh and scoff at that, while they ride their bicycles, wearing their white shirt and very bland tie, with a school boy back pack on their back.

    Ed

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  53. chapmaned, ok I am good with that. I don’t want to get into further debate right now, though. I’m sure we’ll be seeing each other around here again. God’s best to you!

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  54. Having said that, I’ve had Mormon “ELDERS” visit me…age about in their early to mid 20′s.

    Ed, I think they start even younger than 20. We’ve got a huge Mormon population here. Oh, and when the young ladies go on their mission (can’t remember if that’s the correct word), they call them “Sister” and add the first name. In fact, I have some former choir students whom I’m friends with on Facebook and they add “Sister” in front of their name. I haven’t seen any guys add “Elder,” however.

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  55. JA,

    Well, one of the guys that introduced himself called himself an elder. I don’t know if they use that word as a title, or position, or both. Maybe the males call themselves “brother”?

    I don’t think that Jesus meant for us to use the word “sister” or “brother” as an official title when he said to call ourselves brethren. I say, “Out with the formalities”. My name is Ed…just Ed. Or Edward. Not Brother Ed.

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  56. No, I think it really is Elder Joe – – once they are missionaries, they add the elder. I’m watching as their mutual LDS friends communicate back and forth on Facebook and even close friends now include the “sister” or “elder” when talking to them.

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  57. “Can’t remember all I said, I’d read through your comment and thought about it for awhile, the main thing I wanted to convey was the words of somebody more intelligent than I, Tim Keller. ”

    I am sorry you believe that. You have the same Holy Spirit Who conveys wisdom as Keller. I pray you see that!

    “To respond to this, what is an ELDER? Age does indeed have everything to do with Spiritual maturity.”

    In the 1st Century they would have been the ones fed to the lions first. All that changed mainly with Augustine and a bit before. They morhped into philosopher kings who knew best for us and became people we must follow and obey.
    Some things to take into consideration with that term is that some churches were planted by Paul who was only there a short time then moved on. There really were NOT mature Christians in many places. And if you notice, you don’t see this as a command in every single letter. Only in a few places. The structure the church took was very informal because it was to be led by the Holy Spirit, not humans.The elders would be more protective than anything else.

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  58. Good morning Patrice. 🙂 In St. Louis, where I live, there are long lines for the SS office and we are made to feel like cattle. Same thing for doctor appointments. It took 2 1/2 years without a paycheck (since I couldn’t work anymore) before I was even approved for SSD. There are so many specialists I’m supposed to see, and right now I can’t even afford the co-pay to see any of them. But I’m hanging in there, best as I can. I loved to sing. I was in a 3000 voice College choir which sang Handel’s Messiah and Te Deum accompanied by the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra. I’ve also been a member of the choirs of every single church I belonged to, from a pre-school age until my (now) ex-husband refused to allow me to attend church….any church….and he was a former minister. I’ve always wanted to learn how to dance. I love watching others dance, but always felt embarrassed about myself, low self-esteem, so I never learned. I would proudly line-dance with you. 🙂

    Like

  59. JA,

    What do you want to bet that Elder Joe is just Joe when he is at his civilian job? I’ll bet his boss doesn’t call him Elder!! ”

    Just get the job done, Joe! I don’t care if you are King Tut…you work for this company…”

    Hehehe!!

    Like

  60. Lydia,

    As you may have seen, I don’t respond much to you, and there is a reason…it’s because I agree with most of what you say. There has been a couple of minor things that I disagree on with you…but it’s minor.

    I am still in agreement with you in regards to “elder”, but I must also note that the last time that I looked up that word in the Greek, the definition is “Older”.

    Even if the church was just being planted, these “older” people have been around the block, so to speak, even if they were considered to be baby Christians. Still, their word should be taken as a bit more wisdom than say a 20 year old…or even a 40 year old.

    I was always taught as a kid to respect my elders…although that pertained to non-religious folks. They know more than me, no matter how smart that I think that I am. Somehow, North disagrees with that premise.

    Ed

    Like

  61. I also have a problem with the following statement from North

    “I never said that, I said that I, as in me, personally, pray that God convicts Josh of the things he needs to be convicted of. That’s how sanctification works, we are new creations in Christ but this side of heaven we still face the continual pull of the flesh, pulling us away from Christ. The Holy Spirit, indwelling in all believers comforts us, convicts us and teaches us. When I say, “I pray that God will show him and convict him of those things in His perfect time.” I in no means meant or meant to imply that God is responsible for Josh’s sin, that would be heresy, I was saying that asides from the work of the Holy Spirit we cannot be convicted of our sin and made into the reflection of Christ. That is a process that continues from the day we are converted until we go to glory. Sin is not God’s doing but I do know this, He uses all things to ultimately bring glory to His name, that one day every tribe and tongue and nation may kneel in worship to him.”

    Here is my problem. What is the step by step procedure to be saved?

    BAD NEWS FIRST (You’ve sinned against God)

    1. Someone must preach the law to you, for the law is the schoolmaster to bring you to Christ. You don’t just start preaching Jesus first, without the schoolmaster.

    Whyt is that important?

    Because the first step of the person TO WHOM the schoolmaster is being taught, is to:

    A. REPENT.

    How do you know what to repent from, if you have no clue as to what sin is?

    1 John 3:4
    SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

    The law of Moses is what CONVICTS a person of sin. KNOWLEDGE of the law is key.

    North thinks that the Holy Spirit convicts a person of past sins…NO, the Law of Moses does.

    Here is the ONLY place in the NT of the KJV that the word “convict”, or like words is used:

    John 8:9
    9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    They KNEW the law of Moses.

    OK, now that you know KNOW KNOW the schoolmaster, THEN, and only then, is someone to preach JESUS to you for the REMISSION and Forgiveness of those sins.

    Good News, or gospel, is NOT good news without the bad news first.

    So, to say that the Holy Spirit convicts a person…NO…the law does.

    There is NO EXCUSE for any Christian to be ignorantly sinning, because they are supposed to have already known the schoolmaster (THE LAW).

    In summary:

    Bad News First
    Good News Last

    Ed

    Like

  62. Up North

    James 5:19-20

    King James Version (KJV)

    19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

    20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    Like

  63. “I am still in agreement with you in regards to “elder”, but I must also note that the last time that I looked up that word in the Greek, the definition is “Older”.

    Yes, I agree. Mature. Senior. But at what? Is it only used for age? When we look at the way the elder situation happened in a few letters it causes us to ask if this word was used only for age in Koine Greek. IAnd it most certainly is not a “command” to have elders.

    In regards to the “law” convo here, I agree with you but would tweak it a bit. In fact, the Pharisees are rendered “lawless” by Christ himself in Matthew. And I understand the confusion with folks on this subject. I believed the wrong thing concerning the “law” for years until I really started studying the Gospels. The word is anomia and they were not only “lawless” on the outside but on the inside, too. (cups) They totally misrepresented the law and made it up as they went along to look pious and put heavy burdens on others. it was not because they “could not keep the law”. It makes me so sad that people think sin is normal. We are to grow in Holiness. I am not saying it is easy but teaching the opposite is so dangerous. If sin is no big deal then why bother with any discernment blogs at all? We should look upon the rot that goes on in the Name of Christ as normal.

    Like

  64. “ood morning Patrice. 🙂 In St. Louis, where I live, there are long lines for the SS office and we are made to feel like cattle. Same thing for doctor appointments. It took 2 1/2 years without a paycheck (since I couldn’t work anymore) before I was even approved for SSD.”

    I am sorry to hear about your situation. it is so hard and people are stuck. it is not like you can go to the competitor. Or who do you complain to? One thing that really bothers me about SS retirement is they limit how much you can make when you get on it if you want to continue working after retirement. Why is that? On the other hand, I know a very wealthy couple with a mentally disabled son who receives SSI for his disability. I simply do not get it. Why isn’t that means tested? So many things do not make sense. And the out of work middle aged folks I know who have tried to get help with food/housing are out of luck after working 25 years and paying in. More government is NOT the answer.

    Like

  65. Lydia,

    You said:
    “Mature. Senior. But at what? Is it only used for age? ”

    I think so. Age shows “lived life”. A mature person can understand religious matters a lot easier than one who has yet to live life. I’ve often had to tell my daughter that she knows nothing (as she was becoming a rebellious teenager, thinking that she knows more than me…remember now, we did the same to our own parents during that stage of our own lives). There isn’t anything that my daughter can teach me, I told her, because I have lived life…she hasn’t. I am more mature than she is. My mother used to tell me that she forgot more than I’ll ever know. It was her way of telling me to shut the hell up.

    Like

  66. There isn’t anything that my daughter can teach me, I told her, because I have lived life…she hasn’t. I am more mature than she is. My mother used to tell me that she forgot more than I’ll ever know. It was her way of telling me to shut the hell up.

    You’re funny, Ed. I probably wouldn’t tell my kids there isn’t anything they can teach me because sometimes they surprise me. And even if I have more knowledge, they still teach me about ME as I interact with them. Your last sentence cracked me up.

    Like

  67. JA, while that is true for some parents, my daughter was getting into drugs and alcohol, and developing a nasty thug attitude. I was not prepared on how to handle her attitude. Worst ever. Everything was “F” this and “F” that, and “I don’t give a “F”, etc. She didn’t want to hear life advice. Her view was that she just wants to make her own mistakes…on purpose…to learn from them. She didn’t want to hear how to avoid making mistakes. She just wanted to “do it all” before she dies. She’s had several of her friends die of drug overdoses. When her first friend died, I was not sympathetic in the least. I asked her point blank, “How many people have to die before you finally get it?” She didn’t take that question very well. It only swelled her attitude even more. NO one was going to tell her how to live her life. Including me.

    Like

  68. Ed – Now I remember you telling me about that situation and her friends’negative influence. Some really go through a stage where they act like they know everything and that’s when parenting is just.not.fun.

    Like

  69. Lydia, as I drifted off to sleep the last night after posting I had a feeling I was going to get in trouble for calling Keller intelligent, btw there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom, I’m sure we all know people educated beyond their intelligence or with insufficient wisdom to deal with their knowledge, but I digress. What I had originally said in the post that got lost was that Keller sums up my thoughts and beliefs in that statement in a manner more concise and descriptive than I.

    JA, bringing this back to the original topic, have you noticed Josh’s latest post?

    Josh Williamson
    Recently, Rev. David Robertson of St. Peters Free Church in Dundee wrote a blog in which he gave his view on the arrest of Tony Miano (this blog follows on from an article he wrote about my arrest). While, I would disagree with Rev. Robertson’s thoughts, and views, I do have to say he has every right to critique open-air preaching, and we would do well to assess if his concerns have any basis.

    However, what I have seen online is slander and vile attacks against Rev. Robertson from those who disagree with him. Some of the attacks I have been saddened to see include referring to him as an apostate, an enemy of Christ, a non-Christian, and a wolf (all these names stemmed from the fact that he was critical of two open-air preachers). Many also operate under the impression that Rev. Robertson is not interested in evangelism.

    The fact is Rev. Robertson is very evangelistic, and does engage in regular Gospel witness. Just because he disagrees with methods and approaches does not give anyone the right to call into question his salvation. By declaring he isn’t saved due to two of his critical blogs is a form of legalism and adds an acceptance of open-air preaching and the approval of open-air preachers as a requirement for salvation. Such nonsense needs to stop and be repented of.

    While Rev. Robertson and I would disagree on numerous theological and practical areas, I have no issue affirming him as a brother in Christ. We would do well to learn to ‘love one another’ and not constantly be on the attack. I have failed many times in this area, and have seen time and time again the pain and hurt that comes from not being loving. We as Christians should rejoice in the fact that the Gospel is being preached, and we should be prepared to overlook the failings of our brothers and sisters in Christ. ‘Love bears no record of wrong’, so let us walk in love towards the family of Christ.
    Like · · Share · 2 hours ago ·

    Like

  70. Up North,

    Let’s see now…How do we Identify a “brother in Christ”? How do we identify the fake and phony Christians? How do we admonish Christians going down the wrong path…being loving, of course? Example

    Jesus said the following:

    Matthew 5:22
    …whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    The Apostle Paul said the following:

    1 Corinthians 15:36
    Thou fool

    Is it safe to say the the Apostle Paul was not a happy camper here?

    The Apostle Paul also stated:

    Galatians 3:1
    O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth?

    Who was IN CHARGE of those in the Galatian Church? Who was the preacher? Who was the Bishop? Who was the Elders? Who was the teacher? Who was the leaders in the church of both Corinth and Galatia that was the God teachers teaching it’s congregation another Jesus and another gospel?

    Ya, I think it is safe to say that the Apostle Paul was more than a bit ticked off at these so called leaders teaching what he did not teach them.

    We also have examples of the following:

    2 Corinthians 11:4
    For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    Galatians 1:6
    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    ***************Can you just imagine, Jesus and John the Baptist being sued by the Pharisees for slander for being called Vipors, and the Apostle Paul being sued and accused of slander and not being loving, calling people names that can get him to hell fire, i.e. “Thou Fool”.

    Righteous anger is OK, so we can dispense with your lovey dovey approach.

    Ed

    Like

  71. “I’m sure we all know people educated beyond their intelligence or with insufficient wisdom to deal with their knowledge, but I digress. What I had originally said in the post that got lost was that Keller sums up my thoughts and beliefs in that statement in a manner more concise and descriptive than ”

    Thanks for explaining. I have a definite bias against Keller. Not just for his determinist doctrine but also because he gave up his leadership moment (IMO) when TGC put out a statement in support of Mahaney and he was silent. Silence in that situation means consent.

    Being involved with TGC as a sort of celebrity pastor brings a lot of perks for these guys. One is that they have a ready made market for books, conferences, etc. It is big bucks in the Reformed world. Just as the seekers had their big buck markets. I would not call Keller wise in a spiritual sense. Perhaps in a business/marketing sense, though.

    He presents a softer determinism that most YRR and I think that draws certain people. But he had no problem turning a blind eye to the support and promotion of Mahaney. The shepherding cult leader and child molester protector. He gets an F from me.

    Like

  72. ” We would do well to learn to ‘love one another’ and not constantly be on the attack. ”

    I never seem to know what this means. I know of many pastors who claim they are being “attacked” because people disagree with them publicly. What is an “attack”?

    I can remember the Driscoll folks talking about the “constant” attacks against Driscoll never once dealing with the issues or the CONSTANT problems with his behavior/words. It is like some pastors want the publicity but not the criticism that might come with it. That is what comes of wanting to be in the public arena. They might want to toughen up their skin and make their case.

    To accuse folks who disagee and state it publicly of having no “love” is a bit unfair. There are some of us who think their “method” of evangelizing is not loving.

    Like

  73. Up North,

    I wonder why Josh, who is friends with Tony Miano, doesn’t rebuke Miano for doing the very SAME thing folks are doing to Robertson?
    This tweet by Miano was directed at Julie Anne –
    Tony Miano@TonyMiano5h
    @PastorJoshW @DefendTheSheep @ChuckONeal_ Josh, my brother. Don’t waste your time trying to reason from Scripture with a woman who is lost.

    It’s funny, Miano wrote about this very thing at – http://www.onthebox.us/2011/04/should-christians-question-salvation-of.html; in this article he specifically states “Again, we do not have the right or authority to declare someone saved or unsaved.” So, Miano claims he has no authority to deem someone saved or lost, and yet, he says JA is a ‘woman who is lost’ – hmmm. Funny how these types are so contradictory, and NOBODY holds them accountable. The trail of contradictions, mistakes, questionable methods of soliciting donations, etc. by Tony Miano goes completely unnoticed by his co-horts. When anyone dare question him, Miano and his buddies slap them down, insult them, falsely accuse them, etc. Josh is okay with all this? There simply is no accountability, nor is there any excuse for the behavior of Tony Miano and those who constantly defend him. We’ve forgotten Christ is who we are to adhere to, He is who we are to follow. This has been set aside in favor of some kind of ‘buddy system’ that believes certain men can do no wrong, and if they do, cover it up and make excuses for it. It’s all disgusting. It’s time those who love Christ and follow Him separate from suspicious ministries like Miano, and men who defend him.

    Like

  74. “We would do well to learn to ‘love one another’ and not constantly be on the attack.”

    In other words, overlook their unbiblical ways, their contradictory practices and make nice. Exposing error is not an ‘attack’ Up North, it’s what we are called to do. The problem is that men are such good buds with one another, they pluck out verses that expose questionable practices and defend men who SHOULD be called into accountability. Men who say they were arrested when, in fact, they purposely broke the law, like Josh did, by NOT moving along when told to by police. Stop defending those who need rebuked. IF you love Christ, then love your brother enough to correct him, and expose his sin; this would include the mess known as Cross Encounters ministry – a mixed bag of contradictory practices.

    Like

  75. Up North – Lydia

    Me thinks ole Tim Keller thinks much to highly of himself. 😉
    And is often found – Saying one thing, doing another. Mat 23:3.
    And adding to the scriptures – Oy Vey!!! 😦

    Saying the Bible is the inerrant word of God.
    Then using many terms, titles, positions, NOT found in the Bible.
    And “Ignoring” verses that do NOT suit him.

    Dr. Tim Keller Senior Pastor, is another reason, a big reason I NO longer trust those mere fallible humans with the “Title/Postion” – pastor/leader/reverend.

    Dr. Tim Keller Senior Pastor, claims to be, Complimantarian. NO females in Leadership positions. Like his TGC buddies. But, “Redeemer” pastored by Tim Keller Senior Pastor, has Female Deacons. To get around that, Dr. Tim Keller Senior Pastor, does NOT “ordain” them. NO, NO, he commissions them. And calls them – “unordained, commissioned deaconesses.”
    I kid you NOT. 😉

    And here Keller uses the infamous word “Biblical ” to make it sound okay. 😉

    Keller says – “There are several good **biblical** reasons
    for having *commissioned deaconesses* in a congregation.”

    Now, can anyone find “unordained, commissioned deaconesses”in the Bible?
    How can *unordained, commissioned deaconesses* be “Biblical?”
    If *unordained, commissioned deaconesses* are NOT in the Bible?

    Simple, Dr. Tim Keller calls himself Senior Pastor. Nuff said.
    Was wondering – Any Doctors or Senior Pastors in the Bible?
    Anyway, Keller is the top dog. Obey. And “his” people submit to “his” authority,
    his leadership, his celebrity. Like they are taught. Why go to the Bible?

    Keller’s reasoning for “commissioned deaconesses” being “Biblical” is…
    He says deacons are servants – NOT leadership – NOT judicial authority.

    He says – “However, I believe—like the RPCNA—that biblically,
    Deacons are appointed to service, not to juridical authority.”
    ““the office of deacon as a calling to service, not rule?”

    But, In the Bible, the very words Calvinists use, Comps use,
    to disqualify women elders is “Ignored.”

    1 Tim 3:12 KJV
    Let the deacons be **the husbands of one wife,**
    ruling (managing) their children and their own houses well.

    If anyone cares – they can read about it here…
    Be warned. Lots of double talk and triple talk, to make this sound “Biblical.”

    http://byfaithonline.com/the-case-for-commissioning-not-ordaining-deaconesses/

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  76. “Dr. Tim Keller Senior Pastor, claims to be, Complimantarian. NO females in Leadership positions. Like his TGC buddies. But, “Redeemer” pastored by Tim Keller Senior Pastor, has Female Deacons. To get around that, Dr. Tim Keller Senior Pastor, does NOT “ordain” them. NO, NO, he commissions them. And calls them – “unordained, commissioned deaconesses.”
    I kid you NOT. 😉 ”

    Oh yes. And TGC trotted out Kathy Keller to take on RHE’s book. There was a reason for that….BECAUSE Keller allows women deacons so they are “soft comps”, right?

    Never mind they won’t ordain them. Just a minor detail, right?

    These guys are slick! You gotta peep behind the curtain and eat your Wheaties to keep up with their shenanigans.

    Like

  77. Yes, Joel, someone tagged me in a tweet about it. It looks all nice and everything. Guess what – – I wasted 40 minutes of my life listening to Miano sitting on Williamson’s couch late at night defending SELF and rebuking those who challenged him about not going to Scotland in April for the trial.

    The man must have had 5 videos from his Scotland visit and he hadn’t even gone to Norway yet. How much time did he spend going from article to article, Twitter, Facebook defending SELF, trash talking people, telling people they were siding with the enemy if they disagreed with him. Do people not realize they are donating him so that he can spend his time defending himself, not the Gospel? I better stop. He’s a fraud.

    Like

  78. Like

  79. Yea, well, I was so incensed that I let my fingers fly. I probably would have reworded things, but oh well. But this is interesting with all of the love connection right there. Phil Johnson is John MacArthur’s right-hand man who dealt with my former pastor and my lawsuit when my former pastor said that a pastor from Grace Community encouraged him to sue us.

    It seems Phil is ok that my former suing pastor went to the Shepherds Conference despite having his license revoked and also being in church discipline. It’s a popularity lovefest. When do we exalt someone as “humble” who labeled people who challenge him as unbelievers? Un-freakin-real.

    Like

  80. I wonder if Phil Johnson would like to put his money where his mouth is?
    I mean, help out a fellow bro-in-Christ that he loves who’s in a jam, right?

    I hope the next tweet I see by Phil Johnson is this:

    ***Am donating plane tickets for humble/zealous/lovable @TonyMiano and wife for trial-no need for sheeple to give***

    Like

  81. Diane, I am ROFL! You have a way of putting crazy in it’s rightful place as the laughing stock. Too funny. Keep the comic relief coming!

    JA, It’s nothing new, just more out in the open. They’re more emboldened to “take a clearer stand”. I say better that than backdoor, back-end, behind the scenes goings on. When pressed, the truth comes out.

    I’ve noticed a reliable pattern with these guys. Anyone can say the right things, but what do they follow it up with and does what they say add up or is it contradictory & confusing & hazy?

    Honest people are appalled. And you’re right, it’s unfathomable. On the other hand, for these guys it’s just another walk in the park – no big deal.

    And there will be those who’s learning curve reaches to the moon. They will push back & refuse to believe their celeb leader(s) could be or do wrong. If the learning curve is that long, then they’re understanding of right & wrong has been wrecked.

    It’s un-freakin-real to us. We think it’s inexcusable & disgusting. And for those who’s learning curve is unending, it’s un-freakin-real to them also. They will refuse to believe it because it is disgusting. They will trot out every excuse in the book so they don’t have to believe it. YOU must be wrong.

    Like

  82. “I wonder if Phil Johnson would like to put his money where his mouth is?
    I mean, help out a fellow bro-in-Christ that he loves who’s in a jam, right?”

    Oh, he does not need to do that. That is what large congregations are for in his world.. Their entire lives are lived on someone elses dime.

    Like

  83. Excellent idea Diane! Too bad it won’t happen. Johnson makes a six-figure salary – http://www.thewatchmanwakes.com/John-Macarthur-salary-GCC-corporation-Larry-King.html. Follow the money trail folks, that’s what it’s all about.
    Too bad Phil didn’t have enough discernment to keep The Master’s College from accepting an invitation to set up an exhibit at the upcoming http://www.lingerconference.com/, which is about everything MacArthur recently spoke out against in his own strange fire conference. Yes, TMC has pulled out of this conference, but ONLY because of all the heat they were getting. You see, you can embrace what you claim you’re against, as long as everybody gets a fair share of mammon. You can recruit folks to your college and it’s labeled as business! The fact that TMC would even consider accepting the invitation in the first place is pretty telling.

    As for Miano, isn’t it strange how he tweeted right before Christmas asking for 2400.00 for ‘payroll’, yet we see no tweet for January for ‘payroll’; nor were there any tweets prior to December for ‘payroll’… must have been a very ‘merry Christmas’ in the Miano household! NOBODY bothers to follow the inconsistencies of Miano and his ‘ministry’. As long as you ‘talk the talk’, you are in with the ‘click’.
    When someone does dare to bring him into account, like Julie Anne does, he responds in a most loving way – demanding she repent, or declaring she’s unsaved! Is this a picture of humility? NOT according to my bible, but then again, I am not serving mammon, I seek to serve Christ, who is our great and exceeding reward. Phil Johnson sees nothing wrong with this behavior from Miano? Very telling indeed.

    You can fleece the flock easier if you disguise yourself as adhering to ‘reformed doctrine’. God have mercy…

    Like

  84. Excellent point Diane, considering Phil Johnson has a six-figure salary at GTY ministries, surely he could ‘foot the bill’ for his oh-so humble comrade {http://www.thewatchmanwakes.com/John-Macarthur-salary-GCC-corporation-Larry-King.html}.
    Too bad Johnson didn’t have enough discernment to suggest MacArthur’s Master’s College refuse an invitation to set up an exhibit booth at the upcoming http://www.lingerconference.com/; a conference that features many things JMac just spoke out against in his strange fire conference. TMC did pull out of this conference, but ONLY because of all the backlash they received. It’s okay to try and recruit folks to your college even though you say you oppose what is being taught at this conference, after all, money trumps what you say you believe…it’s all business!

    As for Miano, why has nobody questioned his tweet in mid-December requesting 2400.00 for ‘payroll’? We see no such request in January, nor was there any request for ‘payroll’ prior to December. Isn’t it odd that he ONLY needs to meet ‘payroll’ in December…right before Christmas? hmmmm…
    It’s just as easy to fleece the flock if you claim to hold to a reformed view as it is if you are a ‘name it claim it’ huckster!

    Where is the biblical command that states we MUST support men who will not work? Didn’t the Apostle Paul work as a tentmaker? Yet, in America, we have these HUGE ministries that charge BIG bucks for conferences, books, speaking engagements, cd’s, etc. And where is their biblical support for charging for every little thing they say or do? WAKE UP people!! It reminds me of this from the prophet Micah…
    “Her leaders pronounce judgment for a bribe,
    Her priests instruct for a price
    And her prophets divine for money. ” – Micah 3:11

    Like

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