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Bloggers are taking on the destructive subculture of the Homeschool Movement and calling homeschool leaders out for their extra-Biblical practices and abusive patriarchy.
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The Homeschool Movement really took off in 80s and 90s. Back then, when we read homeschool magazines, we were sold on the “perfect” homeschool family on the front covers. We were the parents who wanted to protect our children from worldly influences and train them up in the way they should go because the government school systems were indoctrinating our children with their agenda. We wanted to give our kids godly education.
Along the homeschooling journey, homeschool leaders have taught us their ideologies and some of us bought them. Some of us bought into the idea that if we kept our daughters at home, they would be protected from the world and bad influences. Our daughters were kept home and away from the world, so they would be sexually pure. Through the practice of “courtship,” fathers would be sure to select/approve a spouse for our daughters who had the same religious convictions and ideologies that he shared, and thus, our daughter’s new family would carry on in the same ways, building generations of godly warriors for Christ. It was the perfect plan. So we thought.
Where are those kids now? A whole generation of homeschoolers have grown up and are now moving on from their parents’ homes. Over the last several years, I have watched adult Homeschool Kids (HKs) “come out” and share their experiences in blogs. Homeschoolers Anonymous blog has been very influential in drawing attention to these abuses that had once been kept secret in families.
Now, through blogs like Homeschoolers Anonymous, HKs could see that they were not alone in how they were raised. Some of them discovered that their home life was not as godly and Christian as they were led to believe – some of them were in fact abused and had very troubled lives.
Kathryn Joyce’s new article, The Homeschool Apostates, recently came out. Several homeschool graduates were interviewed in Kathryn’s article. The article is not an easy read. If you are a homeschooling parent and have poured your life into the education and well-being of your children, it is going to make you angry to think that others could have sabotaged the welfare of their precious children. You also might feel that your family’s homeschool experience is lumped into Joyce’s article, and you might get a bit defensive. I’ve observed this strong reaction from several of my personal homeschool mom friends.
But we who are homeschool parents need to check and see if some of the ideologies that we have adopted are in fact biblical and are not just some newfangled idea promoted by homeschool gurus. If there is some truth to what you read in the article, then it is up to healthy and godly parents to make sure to call out the abuses and extra-biblical legalism when we identify them.
I’ve been blogging alongside these young HKs, seeing the same patterns of mental illness, substance abuse, depression that Stollar mentioned in Kathryn Joyce’s article. What happened to the perfect homeschool family?
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One common response when drawing attention to abuse in churches or spiritually abusive church leaders is: attack the “attacker.”
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We are now seeing that same attack-the-attacker response from those who speak out against those leaders who promote legalism in the Homeschool Movement. Homeschool leaders who previously had free rein to say what they wanted and were rarely challenged no longer have that privilege in the blogosphere. The whole subculture and legalistic aspects of the Homeschool Movement are under fire and rightly so. And now, because the heat is on, anyone who draws attention to these abuses is up for attack by these homeschool leaders.
Kevin Swanson is one such attacker.
In critiquing Joyce’s article, he nitpicks on aspects that are not even important, but glosses over the most important points.
The homeschool community at large would be wise to distance themselves from this man who spews vile rhetoric on topics that challenge his ideologies. (He has yet to retract his statement on dead embedded fetuses in wombs of women who were on birth control pills.)
Below is an excerpt from his recent blog post in which he attacks Kathryn Joyce and her article:
Homeschool Apostates and Kathryn Joyce’s Sins
Kathryn Joyce’s propaganda pieces that are intended to demonize the homeschooling population (or at least, certain segments of conservative homeschooling in America) continue rolling off the presses, and I like to keep track of the people who sympathize with her.
and
So of course, there will be masses of homeschooling millennials who will take on these ideologies, and abandon any semblance of agreement with the Christian faith. My tiny radio broadcast is only meant to salvage a few Christians left in the Western world who have ears to hear and won’t move with the masses.
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I took at look at Swanson’s Facebook page and his supporters echoed similar comments. Rather than taking a careful look at the idea that there might be legitimate abuse going on, they comment on denim jumpers?
Why oh why are people still bringing up the denim jumper thing. Good grief who cares! Some of the loveliest people I know wear denim jumpers. (Source)
And this parent focuses on public schools and rights of parents being taken away:
this [sic] is very sad, some children will reject the faith, i pray its’ never my own child daily!!!!!!!!! it doesn’t sound like it is the blame of the parents here, just a child that fell away and i pray that she will be a prodigal. but what about the horror stories from public schools, lets hear some of those. it’s all about taking the rights of parents away.
What in the world? Did they read the article? Do you see how these homeschool parents avoid the real agenda and don’t even want to tough the real issues?
If you’ve never listened to Kevin Swanson’s radio broadcast, be sure to check him out – if you can handle it. Here is a little snippet from the broadcast:
Her big article that she did for uh..Prospect…American Prospect.org…she…she names the article “Homeschool Apostates” which is exactly what I used for my show a couple of 4 3 weeks ago. Um..so..anyway..she’s pretty excited about uh the point 1%…whatever it is…of the homeschool population. It might be 10% it might be 20% I dunno what it is…it’s hard to know..but they are definitely the whiners that are coming out of the homeschool population and saying they didn’t have the best of experiences and some of them may have a good point. Others may not. Now she covers a number of them in her article and most of whom seem to be to be whiners.
Kevin calls these adult homeschool kids whiners. He, a homeschool leader, pastor, instead of looking to see if there is any truth to their story, calls them whiners. Plus he’s criticizing an unbeliever. Well, what you don’t see is him addressing all of the Believers who are coming out publicly against his brand of extra-Biblical legalism in the Homeschool Movement. Why is that?
I appreciated Shawn Mathis’ take on Joyce’s article, especially coming from a pastor who is taking a closer look at the Homeschool Movement.
But in spite of this weakness, the article may wake up some homeschoolers to the physical and spiritual abuses in their midst. Such abuses are not unique to homeschooling to be sure. These abuses arise from various causes, even ones I cannot imagine. But I believe a widespread root problem is legalism.
The air of legalism is fear. And the atmosphere painted in the article was fear. Her vivid stories display households drenched in fear: the fear of parents and children losing their souls because they are not obedient enough.
Joshua Generation
Matthis touched on another important aspect that I also took from Joyce’s article. This generation of homeschoolers had a heavy burden on their shoulders to perpetuate this homeschool mission that they were raised to take:
The article painted another important fact: the additional burden of being the newly christened Joshua Generation. I first ran across this term in a book I am reviewing, entitled Take Back the Land. The author unashamedly declares: “I believe that you [young homeschoolers] will lead America into decades of revival and national reformation. If you don’t, there is little hope for our country. A lot depends on you.”
Spiritual abuse, in the form of legalism, is a big problem. But the additional burden of being a chosen generation must be unbearable. (Some thoughts on American Prospect essay, Homeschool Apostates)
Homeschool parents would do well to take a closer look at these stories. Dig deeper and try to look at the Homeschool Movement from these HKs’ perspective. See if you can read some of these stories without getting defensive. Is there any truth to what these HKs are saying? If so, what are we as parents going to do about it? I say it’s time to call out the legalism.
I’ve been struck by my own friends who are homeschool parents and don’t want to challenge their practices. It might be a rude awakening for some when their adult kids do not emulate the same practices they tried to instill in their children. I get that in a real personal way.
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I will continue to blog about this topic because it is near and dear to my heart. I am so thankful to the other bloggers who have taken up this cause and will fight to make sure our adult children are not abused, isolated, undereducated, and forced to be a part of a system in which they have no individual rights, even as adults. This must stop.
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It will be interesting to see where the homeschool leaders shift the blame next. It’s not about them, of course, and extra-Biblical rules. Any failure in homeschool kids to toe the line as adults and carrying on the torch will be blamed on anything but faulty homeschool leadership. I know how this works.
In the meantime, here are some bloggers who are speaking out about their experiences. Many of them no longer look or live anything like their former lives. Let’s learn from this first generation of homeschoolers so we can make appropriate course correction. All homeschooling is not bad, but we have some work to do.
***Update on a newsworthy Homeschool Movement/blogging story:
This article was brought to my attention: Matthew Chapman to Headline the 2014 CHEO Convention. Please take a look at this very disturbing article.
It discusses another dangerous homeschool trend about marrying off homeschool girls at a young age. The article discusses the Matthew and Maranatha Chapman who were recently slated to speak at the CHEO homeschool convention.
Take a look at this screenshot with a very new development:
Now, recently, there have been several bloggers reporting on this disturbing story. So could they have voluntarily removed themselves because of this blogging pressure? hmmmm.
BAM – former homeschooler
Beautiful Disarray—”Surveying the aftermath of quiverfull devastation.”
Becoming Worldly—Eldest of 10 from a homeschool, patriarchal and quiver-full family
Between Black and White—”A quiverfull girl who has realized she is worth something.”
Bridging the Gap – Ex-christian fundamentalist/quiverfull daughter, homeschool graduate. Survivor, fighter,entrepreneur, creative.
Darcy’s Heart Stirrings— “Fundy” homeschooler, influenced by Gothard and ATI and includes guests posts
Defeating the Dragons – An ongoing journey in overcoming a fundamentalist indoctrination.
Dispelled—One girl’s journey in a home school cult.
The Eighth and Final Square—A place to rant, ramble, and process.
Emily Maynard — Grew up in Homeschool Movement and now speaks out about her experiences.
Faith Filled Thoughts—”I ask hard questions, and then I write about them.”
Feminist in Spite of Them— “Finally feeling free to tell my story.”
For Heaven’s Sake—”One of 9 children whose family got into a cult.”
Freiheit 86—”Once upon a time I was homeschooled . . . and then the world opened and was wonderful and everything changed. Myself most of all.”
Heresy in the Heartland— “A homeschool grad and her atheist kids.”
Homeschoolers Anonymous – “HA is a clearinghouse for all stories about homeschooling from any people who have experienced it — the good, the bad, and the ugly.”
IBLP Detox—I wouldn’t consider myself to have all the answers.
Incongruous Circumspection—Fasten your safety latches . . . you’re in for the time of your lives!
Lana Hobbs, the Brave—Aspiring writer, perpetual seeker.
Lauren Nicole—I live to make my life beautiful, and to speak truth in love.
The Life and Opinions of Kathryn Elizabeth, Person—I was born at a very young age.
Love, Joy, Feminism—Former evangelical turned atheist progressive feminist.
Mari’s Musings—”story of how I was sucked into the patriarchal/quiverfull belief system, and how I was lovingly (and in some cases, not so lovingly!) escorted out.”
The Neon God They Made—I’m done making excuses.
Out of the Chrysalis—The defrauded daughters
Overturning Tables – R. L. Stollar, co-founder of Homeschoolers Anonymous
Permission to Live—Pretty much everything changed.
Phoenix and Olive Branch—Daughter of the patriarchy.
Profligate Truth—Truth is beautiful without doubt; but so are lies
Ramblings of Sheldon—Exposing the IFB.
Spiritual Llama—A journey out of a life of fundamentalism and spiritual abuse.
Time To Live, Friend—Taking hold of my life, finally.
Who I Am Without You—Dealing with my past for the first time in my life.
Wide Open Ground—An unfundamentalist conversion.
Wine and Marble—We shall not cease from exploration.
Quivering Daughters—Hope, healing, and gentle encouragement.
X-ATI Girl—Don’t snicker. A lot of kids are hurting.
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Thanks for offering this line up of articles. I hope more people study the issues instead of rejecting things that are too uncomfortable.
JA: Just a clarification: I was *not* homeschooled. I can see why you may have thought that but I do specify early on in my article “I was never homeschooled”–but that is the point: I was not h/s yet the legalism expressed in that article resonated with me.
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I read it several times and still missed it, Shawn. I will fix that. Thanks for the correction and for taking a serious look at the problems.
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Well, that means I need to be clearer. I went ahead and italicized ‘never’ in that sentence.
And, your welcome. I will continue to write about homeschooling issues and have another legalism article coming up.
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Please don’t take that hit, Shawn. It’s me. I’ve been exhausted – fighting some crud and yesterday completed 6 out of 8 concerts this Christmas season. I’ve been over the top busy. Just 2 concerts this week and then I’m freeeeeeeee. 🙂 But it’s been fun. Love it.
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Shawn, I am so glad you are making this clear because the point needs to be made that this has nothing to do with actual homeschooling and everything to do with legalism.
Several years ago I talked with a woman who is an attorney and a homeschool advocate. She had done the research and discovered that in the state of Illinois where I live, HSLDA themselves states that less than 5% of homeschoolers here are actually members of their organization. I think that is a fairly consistent number all around the country. (I use HSLDA’s numbers as a benchmark because they are pretty well aligned in their beliefs and have participated in radical group events like the 2009 Homeschool Leadership Conference with its nutty “manifesto.”) People need to know that the vast majority of homeschoolers do not follow these legalistic gurus. HOWEVER, many of the state organizations foolishly pander after these self-appointed homeschool “leaders” and bring in a terribly small percentage of homeschoolers to their events. It is only a matter of time before they cannot sustain themselves. Already many are having to mover to smaller venues and raising their fees.
Julie, I am glad to see you putting pressure on these convention planners. Right now in Ohio they have Matthew Chapman as a keynoter, you know, the guy who promotes radical betrothal!!!! This has got to stop.
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Julie Anne, I had no idea there were this many Bloggers dealing with the topic. I have been to 4 of the sites on the list but – wow!
Just so you know, anyone who does homeschooling has my utmost admiration and respect – I can’t imagine giving that much time, effort, and arduous attention to that task. Unfortunately for many of the Joshua Generation, things went off the rails quite significantly, as you have articulated. Hopefully, by sharing their stories these young people WILL be able to stop the abusive practices and help shift the movement to the true leaders – the talented, committed, hard-working parents who are the ones who have a vested interest in their children.
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Carmen – – I am sure there are others. I picked from some that I was familiar with whose blogs focused a lot on the homeschooling issues. I am seeing positive results and obvious responses to the pressure being put on the homeschool leaders by HKs and bloggers. We know that when we are their blog fodder, we are hitting a sore spot.
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Karen (thatmom) – I remember when I joined a homeschool e-mail group before moving from VA to OR. This particular group had both Christians and non-Christians and it was very eye-opening. For the first time I saw the distinct differences between Christian homeschoolers and secular homeschoolers and realized that HSLDA did NOT speak for all homeschoolers. I was always under the impression that they felt they spoke for all homeschoolers in their lobbying efforts. It became very clear that many homeschoolers do not approve of their lobbying efforts and do not like their agenda.
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Please be sure to read the important update I added right below the list of bloggers. This is big. I know a lot of people were so upset about the Chapmans speaking at the homeschool convention.
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Hey, Julie Anne! I just wanted to clarify that I was never in ATI. Just your basic, fundy homeschooler here! 🙂 We were pretty deep into the conservative homeschool culture. We were heavily influenced by Gothard and did a lot of ATI things, but were never in the program. I also have had a few guest posts on my blog from ATI students. Just wanted to clear that up! thanks so much for the shout-out and for bringing this subject to light. It is near and dear to my heart as well.
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Hi Darcy – -I think that was the brief summary posted at Libby Anne’s site. I’ll fix that for you and thanks for letting me know. I appreciate the work you do.
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Swanson’s first sentence strike anybody else as odd?? I realize as I type this I’m probably being shuffled into some ‘list’. He talks about the book for a second …. And then in reference to people that follow the author and agree with her ‘and I like to keep track of people that sympathize with her …’ Wow, threat much? Anybody else think so too? It goes back to the whole point that’s attempting to be made. The root problem is legalism. His views are disgusting and I’m so glad people are standing up against all this extra-biblical crap. I wish I hadn’t been afraid to all these years. Great article JA- let’s pray this movement is starting to feel some real pressure. Thank you !
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Julie Anne, that is an AMAZING update! So thankful for those who challenged the Ohio “leadership!”
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HSLDA has quite the history of speaking for all homeschoolers.
There has even been some talk amongst some of the ‘leadership” questioning whether or not homeschooling should be the right of anyone lacking religious convictions for doing so! Outrageous!!!!!!!!!
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Thanks for mentioning me in your former homeschool bloggers list!
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Very happy to, Sheldon. If you want me to change the summary, let me know 🙂
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As the current homeschool “leaders” get older, I’m guessing (and hoping) that this style of leadership is going to die out or will not be as influential. It seems that the next generation isn’t buying into it as much.
It really does make me sick that the current Christian homeschool conferences have primarily one agenda. It’s what turned me off. As a homeschooler I wanted to go and learn about effective ways to teach my children. I guess I was just one of those “weird” homeschoolers. I actually cared about my children’s education.
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HKs! Love it. *hugs* You give us hope!
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A couple of thoughts here as I served on our local gov’t school board: Public schools are as bad as Kevin Swanson preaches. If you want to talk about abuse, make it balanced and tell what goes on in the name of public education, too. And if Kevin Swanson is so out of line, why not take it up with the OPC? He isn’t a lone ranger – he’s an ordained pastor in a sound denomination; he is not on the same level as lone ranger Doug Phillips.
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I find it ironic how legalistic the people who say they are against legalism can be.
Is there any Biblical reason why a daughter couldn’t be given in marriage at the age of 16? Someone who says that all daughters must be is legalistic, but so is someone who says that no daughter should be. Bible scholars believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was around that age (possibly even younger). But of course her marriage was wicked and legalistic, right?
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Angela:
I know you have recently changed your tune on Phillips. I hope that you will dig for yourself and look into Swanson, because it shouldn’t take you long to see that the man gets on his soap box and grossly exaggerates to push his agendas. He’s pro-life. I am also pro-life. But I’m not going to make up some whackadoo idea to push my pro-life agenda.
Try to put yourself in the place of a woman who used to be on birth control pills. Swanson said that women who were on birth control pills (and he said there was evidence of this from doctors and scientists), had a graveyard of dead embedded fetuses in their wombs. To suggest this to a woman who is very pro-life could set her on a self-condemning crazy cycle and could even lead some women to deep depression or even suicide. But he’s okay with saying something like that.
I went directly to him via Twitter, his Facebook page, his e-mail address and got NO response from him. I have a screen shot of at least one doctor who said his words were ridiculous. He never retracted his original statement. As a pastor in a position of leading people, he has failed. He shows no humility, but keeps on saying rhetorical nonsense.
Regarding your opinion on public schools. You may have served on the local “government” school board and you may have seen some bad things. I’m on my 6th yr of volunteering at local public high schools. I know a lot of the teachers (who are Christian, btw). I just do not see what Swanson and people like him are seeing. It’s a bunch of hype to push their homeschool agenda.
Just as their are bad home schools, I’m sure there are bad public schools, but to issue broad statements that they are all evil is pretty evil. As Christians, we should be more careful with our words.
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I am much inline with Swanson’s views regarding education and pro-life. I spent a decade protesting at the local abortion mills and went to college for medical assisting. I’m sorry if the truth hurts, but Swanson’s right about the BC pills. Plus, the man is in a Presbyterian denomination. If he’s a tyrant, have him investigated through the proper channels – not crucified in the blogosphere.
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Angela: He is NOT right about the birth control pills. He failed to cite sources of the scientist/doctor he mentioned where he got this info. I asked him straight up and he refused.
There are no embedded fetuses in wombs of women who were on birth control pills. Medical professionals commented all over the internet when this crazy story came out. They said it is not true, not possible. Menstruation sheds the lining of the uterus each month, so it’s not a physical possibility.
Did you try to put yourself in the shoes of women who were on BCPs and try to imagine the unnecessary pain/guilt/shame they might feel due to his ridiculous words? That is not Christ-like behavior.
He said this in a very public way: on his radio broadcast. I did due diligence in contacting him privately. Interestingly, he did remove his original broadcast, but he never made a public statement. Why is that?
His wrong information was broadcast all over the internet certainly causing some women grief. You better believe I’m going to challenge it publicly so that hopefully some of these people who believe him hook, line, and sinker, will see for themselves just as the Phillips fans are having to do now.
Swanson is no innocent guy in this, Angela. He purposefully misled people. What kind of pastor does that?
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Swanson is completely wrong about the wombs full of dead babies birth control issue. I talked to several pathologists and two GYNs, and they all told me that what Swanson said was a fantasy. When I asked if I could use their names, every single one of them said that the concept was so ridiculous that they didn’t want their names used because they didn’t even want anyone in their profession to think that they even paid any attention to the nonsensical idea. That’s how insane this is. They coudn’t even cite a diagnosis for this concept that was remotely related to what Swanson was describing.
If you want to assume that Swanson was right about this embedded fetus issue anyway, a woman who remained fully fertile throughout her whole reproductive life and had no pregnancies while sexually active would have had a max of 200 or so fertilizations, so it wouldn’t have been “thousands.” He didn’t even get that that much right.
Considering that through advanced ultrasound techniques, we know when a woman ovulates, on effective oral contraceptives, a woman only releases a few breakthrough eggs over a five year period. If you want to argue that a fertilized ovum is seen as the same thing as a pregnancy, because a woman who is sexually active is believed to have about 4-5 conceptions a year when using no contraception, the woman who uses oral contraceptives could be argued to be doing the more ethical thing. The woman on OCs experiences less than ten fertilizations in a five year period (just to be generous), and the woman who uses no contraception in that same period without pregnancy will have 40 -50 “dead babies.” What’s more ethical? 0-5 or 50? It’s ridiculous.
We’re Christians and we should tell the truth. Oral contraceptives are far from benign agents. They’re associated with very serious side effects in general, even apart from the ethical arguments against them. But we shoudn’t have to make up bizarre stories that make Christians look like fools.
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Cindy, please tell my readers your educational background which will help explain why you have access to pathologists/GYNs. What is Swanson’s educational background anyway? I know he is a homeschool graduate. Where did he go to college?
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Swanson SHOULD by investigated through the proper channels, but until he is, this is a great place to start – he certainly DESERVES to be crucified in the Blogosphere. . . fetuses embedded in wombs . . . WHAT NONSENSE!! That fact that he would say something like that would cause me to disregard everything else he had to say on ANY topic. Really, how much credibility has this guy got??? As to the laughing stock of Biblical Patriarchy. . .Another One Bites the Dust.
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But Carmen, he hasn’t bit the dust. He’s alive and very well in Christian Patriarchy and the Homeschool Movement. He has a very large following and some of the stuff he teaches is equally as bad as Phillips.
Hyped up rhetoric is wrong. If your message is true, you don’t need to add anything to it.
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“Plus, the man is in a Presbyterian denomination. If he’s a tyrant, have him investigated through the proper channels – not crucified in the blogosphere.”
What is with the hyperbolic language? Discussing Swanson’s rather bizarre (and wrong) views is considered “crucifixtion”? Why spit in our Saviors face, Angela?
Most of us here do not subscribe to your legalism about not being allowed to discuss/analyze PUBLIC teachers and what they teach. We do not live in that narrow world of what is verboten or tell others what is verboten to discuss. . How silly to say there are “proper” channels for us to go through to have him “investigated”. We are analyzing his teaching that is PUBLIC. Don’t forget he makes money off Jesus’ Name. So, he is fair game. You might not like it and that is ok. But, try some freedom in Christ. It is pure love.
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Karen (thatmom) from above posted this comment on her blog in 2011 that is worth noting about Kevin Swanson:
Swanson’s ideologies are dangerous – they are a driving force within the Homeschool Movement that has been a breeding ground for men to take a position of authority in their homes and abuse.
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One brief point and then…our story. 🙂
Of course there aren’t “embedded fetuses” in the wombs of women who take the Pill. That’s nonsense. However, many medical scientists and researchers do contend that the Pill is an abortifacient — precisely because it alters the lining of the uterus, making it difficult for fertilized eggs (newly conceived babies) to implant / embed. (And yes, the Pill sometimes fails to prevent ovulation, so eggs do get fertilized.) Here is an article via a quick Google search:
http://lifeissues.net/writers/kah/kah_03howpillworks1.html
OK, on to our story:
We have home-schooled both of our kids (sons) since they were four years old. However, we do not even remotely fit the mold of the Rigid Fundamentalist Homeschool Family presented here. So, we are living proof that the homeschool movement is much more diverse than many people think it is.
To begin with, we are Catholic. Calvinism, Puritanism, Biblical Patriarchy, and Reconstructionism hold zero appeal for us.
Secondly, we have an unusual arrangement, which the fundamentalists would find abhorrent. I, the mom, work outside the home full-time, as an e-commerce copywriter for a large apparel company. My husband stays at home, runs the household, and does the homeschooling. He holds a doctorate in (Byzantine) history from Harvard, and he has a ton of teaching experience. He is also committed to a rigorous daily teaching schedule, currently including subjects like Latin, Greek, Calculus, Physics, World History, and World Literature. Over the years we have used our own custom-designed “classical curriculum,” incorporating various texts and resources, both secular and religious.
We have never kept our kids captive at home or subjected them to fundy brainwashing. Our older son is currently a junior at the University of Alabama (on a near-full-ride National Merit scholarship). He is double-majoring in History and Classics, and his GPA is consistently around 3.9. Our younger son is finishing up homeschool, taking some courses at the local community college, and planning to enroll full time in the fall. (He is intensely introverted — unlike his gregarious older brother — so he chose to go the community-college-to-four-year-institution route, as a way of easing into the college experience. Our state [NC] has a superb public university system, and many in-state kids choose to transition from two-year schools into one of the four-year in-state publics. Anyway, this was our son’s choice; we did not force the issue; and he seems happy with the decision.)
We homeschooled for both religious and academic reasons. So far, our kids have turned out OK, so I guess we did all right.
Do we have regrets? Yes. We live in the “backwoods,” and we may have been a little too isolated. We probably should have made more of an effort to provide regular opportunities for socialization. On the other hand…as we constantly remind our kids: Two lovely girls, exactly the same ages as our boys, live right next door. Another two girls, also the same ages as our boys, live at the end of the other cul-de-sac. (When the kids were younger, they used to hang out with the latter two girls. I don’t know why we fell out of that habit…I guess maybe the other parents, also homeschoolers, had reservations about letting their kids fraternize with Catholics, LOL.) Anyway…anytime girl-crazy Older Son had wanted to hang with kids his age, all he had to do was walk down to the end of the driveway, and voila, there they were. We never set any restrictions on their social lives…we didn’t forbid them to hang out with kids who didn’t share their worldview or anything like that. However, we also didn’t participate much in the local homeschooling groups, with their “play dates” and so forth. My hermit husband isn’t the social type. I am pretty social, but, when you work full time, it’s kind of hard to make it to midweek daytime play dates!
The kids were involved in church youth groups. Later on, Older Son got very involved in Life Teen, a Catholic youth-group network. And, once he got to college, he made up for lost time in a hurry and developed a slew of friendships. However, he still takes us to task for not providing more social opportunities for him when he was younger. The boys got along really well with each other — and still do — but they could have used more exposure to the broader world of their peers. That is my one regret.
OK, sorry for beebling on and on. Just wanted to say that there are many homeschooling families out there who do not fit the Rigid Fundy Patriarchal stereotype. We are one such family, and we know others as well.
Oh, one more thing. When the kids were little, I attended several homeschool conventions but never attended any of the sessions — just the book fair. Needless to say, as a Catholic, I didn’t fit in or feel comfortable with all that fundagelical stuff, so I stopped attending after a couple of years. However, because I’d signed up for those conventions, my name made it onto Doug Phillips’s mailing list, and I received his glossy catalogs for years. I always found his pictures of Perfect White-Bread Families kind of off-putting, but I did think it might be cool sometime to order a Regency empire-waist dress, so I could dress up for Halloween as a Jane Austen character. 😉
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Welcome Diane – and thanks for sharing your very positive homeschool experience. It sounds like you and your husband have done a great job with your boys.
We have a lot of positives to share, too. I mean, how many kids get to study Ancient Greece and Rome and then visit those countries on a 3-week field trip? My son did!
Homeschooling offers many wonderful educational opportunities for our kids. It’s just too bad this particular Homeschool Movement has allowed some abuses to go on for too long.
I am aware of an “ultra-fundy” aspects of homeschooling among Catholics – – and they look very much like the Protestant version: dresses-only, full-quiver, etc. I don’t know if they have leaders like Doug Phillips, however.
Thanks for chiming in, Diane!
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I agree with Diane that BC’s are abortifacient. I listened to the program where Pastor Swanson discussed the BC pills and my impression was that he was trying to stress the importance to Christian women to NOT use them. I didn’t take it literally to mean pre-born babies are implanted in their mother’s wombs.
What kind of pastor is Kevin Swanson? Probably a darn good one, IMO.
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Correction: I meant to say “I didn’t take it literally to mean dead pre-born babies are implanted in their mother’s wombs.”
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Well, Angela, I think you might need to listen to it again. He said it and reiterated it. He then defended his words on his Facebook page. Then he came out with a statement again defending himself.
Swanson actually believes there are dead embedded fetuses in wombs of women who were on birth control pills. If he didn’t mean it, then why would he say it a number of times?
Exaggerating the truth is lying. A pastor who lies is a false teacher, Angela. A good pastor is not someone who has agenda that matches your own. A good pastor must follow God’s word and not embellish or add more to it. Swanson, just like Phillips, does that.
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Sorry to comment in short spurts – just having a busy day… I also want to point out that while serving on the local gov’t school board I wore a denim jumper with heels, a cute top and belted it for a more form-fitting look. Of course, the school administrators wanted me crucified for identifying too much with the home school crowd. 🙂
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Gee whiz, a darn good pastor who tells women they DON’T have control over reproduction – just the kind of guy I’d want to worship. I suppose, though, if you are a woman who doesn’t want to think for yourself and/or make decisions for yourself and if you enjoy having a man control every aspect of your life in thought, word and deed, you’d sing his praises.
ME? I’ll just laugh at him and his foolishness – as most sensible people should be doing.
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Angela – I don’t have a beef about denim jumpers. Who cares? No children are being harmed when a mom wears a denim jumper. But check out this from Kevin Swanson:
“There are some children that need to be disciplined, and I’ve heard this from Godly parents, 20-30 times a day. Some children 20-30 times a day, 3,4,5,6 years in a row. It is just overwhelming for some parents.” ~Kevin Swanson http://www.thatmom.com/2010/02/24/kevin-swanson-on-the-need-to-discipline-20-30-times-a-day/
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Look what I found. Today, Jeff Crippen has an article on legalism and how it enables abuse. This is excellent and describes exactly what Swanson and Phillips and Scott Brown, and Geoff Botkin, and Gregg Harris, the homeschool gurus do in the Homeschool Movement: The Trickle-Down Nature of Legalism and How it Enables Abuse
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JA: I finished my article on a subtle form of legalism in homeschooling circles:
Homeschool apostates, homeschoolers and legalism
I think it dovetails with the article you just linked above although he talks more in terms of power (a true temptation for pastors I am sure). He has an excellent example I wish I would have used in my recent article:
“But Paul says that EVEN Barnabas got all carried away in this hypocrisy and the infection quickly spread. He starts indicating by his behavior that the gospel is not by faith alone, but is by works of the law.”
Behavior can speak more than words. And it is this subtle type of legalism I hope to highlight.
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It sure does dovetail Jeff’s article, Shawn. Thank you. What bothers me about this legalism is that the extra-Biblical emphasis sometimes gets more recognition and credibility among these groups than what is actually IN the Bible. Adding extra to the Bible which was not there is false teaching. Kevin Swanson and Doug Phillips are false teachers. They are not preaching the Gospel from the Bible. They are preaching their own gospel. It’s time to call it what it is.
Shawn, I can’t remember where I read it, but in an old comment of yours, you mentioned a homeschool leaders who said that churches who do not get rid of age-segragation need to repent. I forgot to bookmark it. Do you recall who that was and where it was said?
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“And if Kevin Swanson is so out of line, why not take it up with the OPC? He isn’t a lone ranger – he’s an ordained pastor in a sound denomination; he is not on the same level as lone ranger Doug Phillips.
Plus, the man is in a Presbyterian denomination. If he’s a tyrant, have him investigated through the proper channels – not crucified in the blogosphere.”
Angela, Your philosophy scares me. You are against free speech! Where is the “Biblical” rule that only “lone rangers” should be scrutinized? Who gets to define what a lone ranger is?
Thanks for bringing up the OPC, though. It makes me think…. Does anyone know if they agree with Kevin Swanson’s womb tomb statements? That would be good to know. Have they issued any statements one way or another? It wouldn’t surprise me if are silent.
In Calvin’s world, God ordains every action. So, even if his claims were true, what’s the big deal on Kevin’s end?
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There is a lot of misinformation about the mechanisms of action of BCPs. Scientists have known for well over a decade that, when taken as the label and provider information recommend, almost all BCPs prevent ovulation and do not prevent implantation. This canard arose when BCPs were first being reviewed by FDA for approval. Because the actual mechanisms of action were not well known, and some believed that prevention of implantation could be a mechanism, that was required to be included in the approved information regarding the pills. HOWEVER, it was later discovered that, in fact, prevention of implantation is not a mechanism associated with the typical BCP.
However, there is a common problem of people taking the pill without following the directions. Skipping the pill on occasion can result in ovulation, and a lot of women miss pills almost every month.
It is also known that many, perhaps most, fertilized eggs do not implant. Some studies indicated as many as 80% or more fertilized eggs do not implant, and this seems to be correlated with the location of the egg at the time of fertilization. The farther along the path the egg is before fertilization, the less likely it will implant.
Bottom line. A lot of fertilzed eggs do not implant. BCPS prevent ovulation and do not prevent implantation.
I staffed a congressional hearing on this issue long ago.
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JA: I do not recall writing that on your blog. I believe I have the quote somewhere (I have so much info on FIC and NCFIC). I do not think there is every a point-blank: you must repent if your church is not family integrated. But then, that is part of the point of my recent essay!
But here’s some stuff I can find immediately (I am on vacation right now….):
1. NCFIC confession: introduction: “We believe that the only resolution to this problem is repentance and reformation. We must confess our failures, reject the traditions of men, and wholeheartedly return to God’s revelation for the establishment and nurture of the family in loving obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church. Our fervent prayer is that our God will raise up Spirit-filled, Christ-centered, family-integrated assemblies from the ashes of our man-centered, family fragmenting churches.”
Article XI — The Biblical Pattern of the Church Reflects Age and Family Integration
We affirm that there is no scriptural pattern for comprehensive age segregated discipleship, and that age segregated practices are based on unbiblical, evolutionary and secular thinking which have invaded the church (Deut. 16:9-14; Josh. 8:34-35; Ezra 10:1; 2 Chr.20:13; Nehemiah 12:43; Joel 2:15-16; Acts 20:7; Eph. 6:1-4).
Article XVI — Judgment Begins With the Church
We affirm that God has declared “judgment begins with the household of God” and thus, we Christians are to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God, looking to judge ourselves lest we be chastened all the more (1 Pet. 4:17; 5:6).
We deny that the church should continue as she has and delay dramatic reformations, or that she will escape the wrath of God for the disintegration and destruction of the family by ignoring or taking lightly biblical roles and responsibilities.”
I would say they are publicly calling churches to repent of various things described in their confession, including age-segregation (Article xvi).
2. Praising churches that repent of said activity:
NCFIC blog: Update on The Church that Repented of Age Segregation
Posted by Scott Brown on May. 26, 2011, “Here is an update on the church in Idaho that formally repented of the way they were discipling their people in agesegregated programs…”
3. His book, A Weed in the Church, is chockablock with the only conclusion anyone can come away with: repent. He calls it a weed, destructive, unbiblical, secular, evolutionary. And it should be stopped in the churches immediately.
On pg. 205: “Explicit negative commands are therefore not necessary to show that something is contrary to the Word of God. Even though there is no express command against systematic age segregation, we argue against it because it does not properly fulfill the principles and commands of Scripture which apply to youth discipleship, and it goes against the primary examples of gatherings involving the whole people of God.”
4. The movie, Divided, is even worse as a propaganda piece. But, again, it never has the courage to say: age-segregation is a sin; repent of it.
5. Mr. Brown states elsewhere: “We maintain that man sins by adding to or subtracting from the ways that the Bible says that youth are to be gathered, evangelized, and instructed.” Age-segregation is a “serious matter,” a “serious error.” ( http://www.ncfic.org/index.php?module=weblogmodule&action=view&id=983&src=@random493e73d2154bd )
6. One NCFIC article (by Einwechter) stated: “The FIC movement is part of a determined attempt by certain men of God to recover for the family the ground that has been taken over by the church and the state. In this regard, we call both church and state to repent of their sin of trespassing on the roles and duties that God has given to the family. We seek to restore the family to its rightful place in God’s economy—no more and no less.”
You can find more on my article,
Why I cannot sign the family integrated church confession.
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JA:
I hope you take this as a concern of one Christian to another.
It is best not to denounce a pastor as a “false teacher” unless proper evidence is brought forth, especially evidence for those who hold that pastor to account. The same would be true with any Christian.
In this case, what evidence is offered does not show a false gospel as such, unless he asserts that one must believe his views on embedded wombs to be saved. If such is the case, it should be brought to the Presbytery or some minister associated with the pastor. Not unlike bringing similar concerns up with a Christian blogger.
I know what was said can be frustrating since it was not fully retracted (he did a partial retraction on his blog). And you did, as I recall, mentioned above that you privately contacted him. And I want you to know that this assertion about dead-babies in wombs is being dealt with (although slower than what many would like). It will be resolved one way or another, Lord willing.
If you know how things are done in Presbyterianism, please skip the following. I know most people are not familiar with Presbyterianism (or may not agree with it), but pastor Swanson have covenanted to be part of a regional body (Presbytery) that holds his credentials as a pastor. If they examine him and find him guilty enough (like preaching a false gospel), they can (and it has been done in other cases) depose him as a pastor.
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“And I want you to know that this assertion about dead-babies in wombs is being dealt with (although slower than what many would like). It will be resolved one way or another, Lord willing.”
Hi Shawn, Not sure what “is being dealt with” means. Can you help us understand? Do you know if the Presbytery is currently examining him?
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I don’t know if this will be helpful to the discussion or not, but I thought I’d weigh in as a husband and father that got sucked into the VF movement and eventually broke free. Most of the passionate posts here and on other similar blogs are from the women that escaped, but if it’s helpful, here goes…
As a Christian family that had recently relocated and was new to homeschooling and therefore seeking advice, we were drawn into the VF vision for Christian family life by DP’s amazing gift of “presentation” (which of course I later came to see as pure self-serving showmanship and a perversion of his gifting by God). My wife had heard a CD of a few of his presentations and said “honey, you’ve got to hear this!” (So can I blame her for getting us involved? Isn’t it always the woman’s fault? Just kidding). In terms of initial attraction to the message, who doesn’t want wonderful, faithful children and a God-blessed marriage?
I think we should be careful not to lump all homeschoolers into the same group of “bad” as some do. There are many demographics of homeschoolers from hippies to conservative Christians to unschoolers to the VF and ATI movements. To be clear, we are absolutely committed believers (but certainly not “Calvinists” – oh my!) and we are totally sold on homeschooling. My wife and I believe homeschooling is truly the best education for our children given our situation and ability to pursue the unique mix of educational opportunities we are able to provide them. This of course is not the answer for everyone; it just works well for us. Not only are we huge believers in homeschooling, but so are our kids. Thankfully the entire experience with VF did not kill the good, we just simply threw out the bad. For additional clarity, our brand of homeschooling is us as the parents managing their education to include classes in our home, local private AP classes, online classes, tutors, etc. that are arranged and supervised by us independent of a public school system. Our children eagerly embrace national exams, are very involved in many extracurricular activities and the community, and are looking forward to applying to top schools. My wife and I both spend an enormous amount of time with our children, selecting classes, selecting teachers/professors, coaching them, teaching them as needed, being their college counselor, traveling with them, etc. I take on about half of that responsibility as their father.
However the quality of the education of most VF families we met is woefully inadequate. Many of the young men we met are hopelessly ill-prepared to be a provider above the poverty level (especially if the babies keep dropping off the assembly line for decades) and nearly all of the young women are unfortunately completely inadequate to educate their children at home or to help provide a family income. (By the way, does anyone else think it’s strange that all of the patriarch-leaders of the movement have well-educated wives, yet they won’t provide the same advantage to their daughters? Or that all of the patriarch-leaders have good educations themselves, yet they won’t provide that same advantage to their sons? You’d think they could look ahead and see a bad trend). I fear for the next generation of dumbed-down, poverty-stricken VF “graduates.” It will not be a pretty picture. Money actually comes in really handy in terms of feeding many mouths and educating many minds. And a good education helps with both.
Here’s a commentary I wrote nearly four years ago in my journal after a conversation my wife and I had about what we had experienced as we ran away from anything VF related. I dug it up (literally word for word from years ago, but I’ve removed the names of some examples I was written in each category and I’ve used only initials for the leaders of the movement, but I think everyone can figure out who the members of the oligarchy are) to share in case it’s helpful or even humorous. Obviously one member of the oligarchy (DP) is now out, but the others will likely chug along. Although SB and GB took some real hits based on their recent NCFIC video that went viral in a bad way and potentially SB will experience some sticky issues based on his performance (or lack thereof) as a member of the board of VF.
This was my view on the types of men/families that were part of the VF and/or ATI movement:
• The “Industrious Empire Builders (IEBs)” – Men like DP and GB that purpose to surround themselves with other families that will serve them and further their ministry through funding (donations, conference attendance, book purchases, etc.), free labor (especially from young male interns or female family members), and adoration and acceptance from the Gushing Groupies that validate their purpose in ministry. The IEBs often work together as an oligarchy to support each other and provide credibility for each other (DP, GB, VB, KS, SB, etc.). If anyone threatens to expose them or question them, the disaffected are roundly renounced as not acting “honorably” and are quickly and often publicly excommunicated from the group.
• The “Hapless and Helpless (H&Hs)” – Men/families that will go as far as moving across the nation to live near one of the IEBs to serve them and be “shepherded” by them. Their mantra is “I need help with my family” or “I need shepherding” and will often grow into Gushing Groupies. These are the core that the IEBs need to continue to tap into to keep growing their “ministry”. The IEBs often use fear tactics and hyperbole to continue to get the H&Hs back in the door at the next conference, even though the content has not changed much at all from the previous conference. Part of the attraction is that the H&Hs are worried about who their kids will marry if they don’t continue with the program and they all aspire that perhaps one of their children will be good enough for the unlikely scenario of marrying one of the IEB children. The message of “no college” and the ideal of mega-sized families insure a growing and stable crowd of H&Hs.
• The “Gushing Groupies (GGs)” – Families that constantly serve the IEBs and their families. These are usually the wives and daughters of the H&Hs that have moved closer to the inner circle in terms of physical proximity to the IEBs and the ministry headquarters. This group will spend countless hours of free labor sewing costumes, cooking meals, working conferences etc. The sons of this group all apply to be interns and seem to nearly worship the IEBs, often attaching to them as father figures. The GG’s children aspire to marry an IEB child and often drop their names in conversation and can be counted on to “like” every post they or their father IEBs make. The GGs are key to the grassroots marketing of the IEBs.
• The “Tyrants” – Men that are attracted to the movement because they like the validation of the domineering father/leader that rules his wife and children with an iron rod and in private can be ruthless and harsh, usually verbally, but sometimes physically and/or sexually. While their families always look perfect in public with matching uniforms, perfect smiles, and impeccable manners, in unguarded and up close moments, the wives and children give the Tyrants away with their nervous ticks, hang dog demeanors, blank stares, or vacuous expressions. Their children plot in secret to run away as soon as they can and often completely leave the movement if they do so. The IEBs sadly shake their heads and offer long prayers for the rebellious youth of the Tyrants, while the Tyrants plot revenge for their errant child. The longer a family has been involved with ATI, the more likely the father is a Tyrant.
• The “Independents & Unaffiliateds (I&Us)” – Men/families like me and my family that were new to homeschooling and were looking to affiliate with a group of other Christian homeschoolers that shared common goals of great marriages, wonderful children and faithful lives. While there is initial attraction to the movement, its fellowship, all of its resources, and its charismatic leader/IEBs, these families usually continue with the movement at the periphery, attending periodic conferences, but frequently purchasing materials. However, if they get too close to the IEBs and see too much, their discernment will eventually kick in and they will leave the movement and its IEB-led churches, and distance themselves from the other families. Without sufficient discernment, the I&Us could potentially become GGs.
It’s all rather interesting to see how true that journal entry was. Of course, I had no idea of the whole Gradygate or Nannygate affairs and I certainly didn’t question DP’s faithfulness to his wife or fear of the Lord. I guess I missed that part. I’m not sure about where the other IEBs stand at this point, but there is certainly extra-Biblical teaching going on which of course benefits them.
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Thanks Julie Anne for not being afraid to talk about these things.
I am a former SGMer and homeschool mom. What I want to say is not an attack on homeschooling but rather a caution about the legalism and extra biblical pressure exerted by many homeschoolers and my former SGM churches.
Before I even had kids my caregroup leaders and homeschooling moms began indoctrinating my husband and I to the superiority of homeschooling. It was not taught from the pulpit per se but it was clearly understood that homeschooling was preferred to any other choice.
God began opening my eyes about the abuses in SGM slowly but it really started to become clear to me about 3 years ago and not long after we left SGM. It was during that year in the homeschool co-op that one of my kids told me he wanted to kill himself. It seems he wasn’t Christian enough for the other kids in our church. Conversely, he was too Christian to his team mates on sports clubs.
I was devastated to hear him talk about himself like that. I got on my knees and I came to the realization that most of the true motive in our choosing homeschooling was based in fear. Fear of what other people in our church would think and fear of all the bad things that could happen in the world. I think a major side effect of legalism is fear.
I love my kids, I want the best for them. I wanted to fit the perfect homeschool mold and to provide them with the most godly education. I definitely wanted to protect them from the world. Ironic that the danger to my son was born out of all those good intentions.
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It seems Shawn Mathis would demand a process Jesus didn’t follow. Or maybe Jesus sinned when he publicly called out false teachers instead of patiently and passively waiting for their transgressions to (hopefully) be handled internally in their synagogues. Yep, that’s it. Those of us who would challenge false teaching are sinners, just like Jesus.
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Julie Anne,
I’ve been occupied all day but am responding to an email from late this AM. Julie Anne asked me to list my credentials.
I am a registered nurse, BSN, with twenty nine years of experience and two semesters of training in a nurse practitioner program. I dropped out of the advanced practice training MSN program because my husband was in an auto accident, and I went to work with him to help him, a la Vision Forums style. My husband is a forensic toxicologist who has worked in medical examiner offices with pathologists, and that work and association has given me access to many pathologists in different fields of practice..
Several individual physicians in the pro-life arm of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists who govern OBGYN standards of care care in this country have been very helpful in discerning matters pertaining to Vision Forum related propaganda concerning their bizarre and ignorant ideas about pregnancy. I also worked for nearly two years in a medical ICU that attended to late pregnancy moms who were critically ill, trying with the doctors to carry their babies to term. I’ve actually been very instrumental in saving the lives of both after most were willing to abandon them. I hold a masters degree in Christian Ministry, and I hold a doctorate in a related health care field.
But again, I must state that when I inquired about the nature of Kevin Swanson’s claims about dead fetuses in the wombs of women who took oral contraceptives, I could not get anyone to give me permission to use their names in association remotely with this bizarre idea. They don’t want to become a laughing stock in their professions by having their good names associated with such insanity. There is no clinical basis for any of Swanson’s claims according to these experts — several of whom weekly examine the slides of the uterus slides from deceased women to determine manner and cause of death so as to rule out a mitigating pathology taht may have contributed to their deaths. Pregnancy in women of childbearing years is quite significant in these typical postmortem exams.
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Shawn,
I appreciate your caution about not flippantly throwing around the word “false teachers.” I also appreciate the work you have done showing the errors that are being made in promoting family-integrated churches (FICs), family idolatry, etc. Your name has been popping up all over the place on the internet and for many years. I highly respect that.
I still would contend that these guys are false teachers. They add extra works and legalism to what the Bible says. They add condemnation and judgment that is also not in the Bible if someone sways from their way of doing things (FICs, choice of education for children, etc.) They present their words as Biblical or godly and it is a distortion or addition to what the Bible really says. They, through this false teaching, are leading others down a path of legalism, works-based salvation.
Others go the other direction and realize they can never measure up and some abandon their faith. In fact, if you click on the blogs I posted from HKs who are telling their stories, you will see that many of them have abandoned their faith. These kids were given a false gospel. Some have never known Jesus who who offers grace. And now Jesus and all things “religion” are disgusting to them because they have seen through these guys, seen the hypocrisy, seen the arrogance and judgmental attitudes, and many of them have been shunned by their own families based on these guys’ teachings.
I’m not a part of any Presbyterian church, so I don’t need to go through any channels. Swanson’s “ministry” in which he spouts off this stuff is very public and so is mine. All I know is I am calling it as I see it. I’m tired of seeing the ripple effects of his (bad teachings and careless words.
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JoyfulandFree, I love what you did when you were devastated by your son’s words: “I got on my knees and I came to the realization that most of the true motive in our choosing homeschooling was based in fear.” I’ve been there, and what a blessing it is to pour it out to God and to listen to what He has to say about our families. He won’t mislead His sheep.
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Cindy – having an understanding of your educational background is very helpful when reading your comments with regard to challenging Swanson’s claims. Thank you.
He has no medical background. He is spouting off something, saying he’s been hearing from doctors/scientists, but failed to provide those sources. When confronted, he did not cough up the information. He issued a very lame response after a huge social media reaction. Instead, he referred people to a 10+ yr old document by Randy Alcorn, who is also not a medical professional. Give me a break. Pastors should be honest and have the highest amount of integrity. There is no integrity in exaggerating claims, not naming sources, not coming clean when challenged. This behavior stinks.
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Thanks Colleen. One of the main things we realized was how much we were listening to man instead of really tuning into the Holy Spirit. God has been so good to teach us this in the last two years.
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A Dad – Welcome. Your comment is excellent. The commentary you wrote a few years ago is very similar to what you can find on the internet in many places. The sad thing is that Phillips, Swanson, Botkin, Scott Brown, Baucham have been teaching these things for years. Cindy and Karen have been reporting on it for years. Shawn has been challenging the Family-Integrated Movement and legalism he has seen. There have been others reporting, too, but not since Doug Phillips’ recent affair has there been this much interest in these topics (and I’m getting a good idea from blog search stats).
Right now there is a large amount of people who are searching for answers because of the Doug Phillips affair. The time now is crucial to give out good information so that parents can re-evaluate what they’ve been holding onto that is man-made and not Biblical. So, for that, I am thankful.
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JoyfulandFree – Oh boy – that was a powerful statement that a lot of us homeschooling parents can relate with. And it’s sad because I think I can speak for so many of us parents that we really did want the best for our children. We wanted something different and better than what we had gotten and what the world was offering. Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I’m very familiar with SGM – have covered their lawsuit quite a bit and actually attended an SGM church in VA a couple of times. A church plant that we attended for 6 months in OR was very similar to SGM (in fact it was a church plant connected with Gregg Harris – Josh Harris’ dad).
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Julie Anne,
One thing I respected about the Sisters of Mercy in my lecture on contraceptives was the fact that they reported the medical facts and the need to know information but protested the use of contraception based on principle. I have great respect for that as I do anyone who feels convicted that use of them is wrong (for them). The argument was always on principle as a moral issue, not a medical one.
Randy Alcorn’s argument may be ten years old or so, but he bases it on medical data that is about 40 years old. Actually, several of his arguments could well be interpreted as arguing for the effectiveness of contraception to prevent fertilization of an ovum, particularly when he talks about ferning and the viscocity of cervical mucus. These are extra measures that prevent fertilization just as much as they are measures that inhibit fertilization of an ovum (which happens 4-5 times a year in women who are not nursing [therefore don’t ovulate] who use contraception and do not have a pregnancy). The problem is the presupposition about whether it is a sin to inhibit the chance that you might get pregnant. Argue that. Don’t make up myths about people’s health and heap condemnation on them.
If you feel as a Believer that it is a sin to do remotely anything that may decrease the lining of your endometrium, then that is fine. Argue that. Then explain away why there is any incident of tubal pregnancy, for there is absolutely no endometrium in a a fallopian tube. If it were necessary to have a 100% rich endometrium because of the eschewing of oral contraceptives, we would never see tubal or ectopic pregnancy.
These people need to be honest. If it is a moral matter for them and they are convicted that it is a sin to do anything that may inhibit the implantation of a fertilized ovum. Don’t eat sugar. Don’t take medication — ever. Don’t drink caffeine — ever. Only have sex when you’re fertile. Go get a yeast titer checked every six months All of these issues will interfere with fertility. Those things are your business.
It’s funny, because many years ago, I had to take oral contraceptives for three months for a medical problem. I was the volunteer coordinator for my local Birthright office, and I used a barrier method because I didn’t feel right about taking the chance of entering into any questionable moral territory — even though the evidence suggests otherwise. People need to follow their conscience, and for some, they may find that Randy Alcorn’s outdated arguments appeal to them. But they should have liberty for others who disagree with good reason.
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Julie Anne, you wrote”
He is spouting off something, saying he’s been hearing from doctors/scientists, but failed to provide those sources.
I don’t believe that he heard this from any medical professional that has current experience and expertise in obstetrics and/or gynecology. No one that I spoke with could even offer a medical diagnosis that would remotely explain what he described. It’s a fantasy. Perhaps someone listened to a doctor speculate about ideas that they have, and they may have misinterpreted what was said to them out of ignorance. But it is an interpretation based on misunderstanding and a desire to come up with a new twist in fearmongering.
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^^^Which is why we wanted sources to begin with. And if he can’t provide them, then why not? Why is he name dropping intellectual professions claiming such things? If his bandwagon is so right and so true, why does he need to hype it up with fabrications? What is he afraid of? This is not the way Christians behave. This is not the behavior we expect of a pastor. My Bible tells me that, not some Presbyterian group of men who seem to be taking their sweet time getting to the bottom of this incident. And mind you, this is only one of many. The guy has a rap sheet of rhetoric a mile long. Just do a simple Google search.
Angela – – he’s a good pastor? For reals?
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Ya know I’m so impressed JA with how you guys have presented this. Just a couple of points I’d like Mr. Swanson to answer and for Angela. We tried to have babies for many years. To to a medical condition we couldn’t regulate my cycle . I had to get ON bcp’s to conceive. Meaning I had to get on them, regulate, get off and 2 mths later I was pregnant with first child and soon will be delivering my third blessing. I could not have done that without birth control.
His views are disastrously misinformed. If I had believed that today,I would have no children of my own. Both the public school rant and this womb tomb rant show a lack of wisdom and understanding that is mind blowing. I flourished in public school after doing home, private, and then public , mainly because it got me free for 7 hours a day from tyrannical abuse of all kinds all done for ‘biblical’ reasons. This lack of understanding is sad and leads people like me down a vortex of despair if I had believed it. Forget that- I’ll take my babies please.
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Just to comment on the addendum to the original article… I don’t see the issue with the stated beliefs of M and M Chapman from a biblical point of view… if those beliefs were applied legalistically, then, well, big problem. I know a girl, christian but not homeschooled, who was engaged at 17 and married just after her 18th birthday to a man 7 years her senior. She was well and truly mature enough, intelligent enough, etc. she’s now 24 with three children and very, very happily married. Her sister at 22, still unmarried and wouldn’t have contemplated being married that young.
The issue shouldn’t be the age but rather the individual. If the marriage is legal, loving and biblical/covenantal where exactly is the problem asides from pre-conceived notions.
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Up North, You raise a good point. I think I would be concerned about *who* arranged such a young marriage. Ie, was it Daddy? Then I have some issues. I’ve been reading a few failed courtship marriages and they are very sad.
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Julie Anne,
So glad to be out of SGM, but that is another story altogether. Also glad to be living in freedom and knowing that whatever my school choices are, God will be there with us. My son btw is doing well and recently asked to be baptized.
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JoyfulandFree – -Wonderful news about your son. Yea!
Yes, getting free from sin-sniffing is very freeing.
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Thanks Julie Anne, in the case i mentioned above (and I know it’s not super young) the father’s permission was sought, nothing was kept hidden but he didn’t control it. Certainly doesn’t view his daughters as property… Having seen the trauma close hand this year from a number of divorces where marriage happened against parents advice with the participants around the early – mid 20’s I’m now of the view that if its biblical and entered into for the right reasons with the parents blessing I’m all for it. Often our parents can see things in us that we can’t.
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Long post with citations ahead.
I wish I could just eyeroll away this nonsense about wombs filled with dead fetuses but unfortunately I’ve heard it too often in these survivor circles. Cindy’s discussion above is excellent. Anon is also correct. But what do those credible posts know, right? In the face of the feamongers and anti-science I offer the additional commentary:
Samantha did an excellent set of posts on the subject of why oral contraceptives are not abortion pills, http://defeatingthedragons.wordpress.com/2013/06/19/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-pill-part-one/
This is pretty good, too, http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/human-biology/birth-control-pill1.htm (there are many others of similar weight found at the FDA, HHS, CDC, NIH, Mayo clinic and other reputable websites as well.
As Anon pointed out, some of these (to pardon the pun) misconceptions about the pill arise from old FDA-approved labeling when the mechanisms of action weren’t well understood. At this point, the FDA-approved labeling for any drug reads like a manufacturer’s warranty (which is, in fact, what it is) and once something is in the label, it’s nearly impossible to get it out of the labeling because the manufacturer could otherwise theoretically be liable on a failure to warn theory — blame the lawyers in this case.
Oral contraceptives are a superb method of protection for a woman who wishes to prevent fertilizations and allows a couple to responsibly determine when is the right time for children, if ever.
There are many, many FDA-approved oral contraceptives and if you really believe that they cause dead fetuses to form in women’s wombs, I encourage you to review the FDA-approved labeling, many of which may be found here, http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/search.cfm?startswith=Ethinyl+Estradiol&x=13&y=9
or here http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cder/drugsatfda/index.cfm
under Ethinyl Estradiol which is the active ingredient in many of the combination pills.
Oral contraceptives, like all drugs, have side effects, warnings, and are contraindicated in certain patients. Of course, given what we know of the toxic effects of aspirin, were it to be introduced today, it would probably be prescription.
Also, I have high confidence in the combination of Congressional inquiry, plaintiffs’ medical malpractice and product liability attorneys, women’s health advocates, and FDA enforcement. If contraceptives were really causing an accumulation of dead fetuses in women’s wombs and causing abortions, they wouldn’t be on the market, pharmaceutical companies would be out of business, and there would be multi billion dollar judgments and lots of gruesome reported cases. Point me to something credible — by which I mean something other than an anti-science fear mongering scree, and I’ll read it. Until such time, oral contraceptives may not be right for people for lots of reasons, but dead fetuses in wombs and causing abortions aren’t two of them.
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There is cause on both sides of the argument regarding oral contraceptives. It boils down to conviction.
http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/
I do owe thanks to Dr. DeCook who, with his Board, worked on a prolife statement concerning ectopic pregnancy intervention, decrying Vision Forum’s policy that all such intervention is abortive. There’s very good info on their site.
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Every time I see a picture of Kevin Swanson, all I can think of is “High school dork who finally got into a position of POWER and has to throw his weight around HARD.”
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Up North, I have seen some very young marriages do very well. A young adult going to parents for guidance is completely appropriate and smart – especially if they are looking out for her best interests.
I do have a big problem with early marriages being pushed by homeschool leaders. The way some “Priests of the Home” use their position of authority and essentially own their daughters without letting them have independent thoughts or ideas, this could be very problematic.
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Ok, I almost missed this. First of all, W4F, I am very sorry to hear that you have had to endure “tyrannical abuse of all kinds” and then this part: “for biblical reasons.” Ouch!!! Now we’re talking spiritual abuse on top of whatever other abuse was going on. Ugh!!! Yes, I can imagine public school or any place away from home would have been safer for you. Thanks for sharing that because this is important. I’ll explain why in a bit.
I never thought about it before, WomanforFreedom, but the same was true for me. I tried to avoid being left at home alone with my father because of his rage which led to abuse. In fact, when I was in high school, I committed to accompany as many choirs as I could just to have something legitimate to do with my time, keeping me away from home. I still have my old calendars from high school and I was booked usually every day of the week, multiple places, playing the piano for some church group nearby. My dad worked odd hours and would have been home during the day time. Had I been homeschooled, I would have endured more abuse.
I think I’ve always said that I was just busy with music in high school, but after reading your comment, it dawned on me that I intentionally made myself busy so I could escape the abuse. Here I go again, processing on the blog. Well, I guess one very good thing has come out of it. I adore accompanying and look where I spend a lot of my time – – with teenagers. Interesting. Where shall I send the therapy check, W4F? 🙂
Ok, but here’s the thing I want to point out. One of the biggest ideas that the Homeschool Guru Leaders have been trying to tell us parents is that by keeping our daughters at home, we will be keeping them safe. For you and for me, home was the worse place to be. It also wasn’t safe for Phillips’ nanny. Home is not always safe for daughters in a Patriarchal home.
PS – I’m thrilled for you that you were able to use BCPs to achieve pregnancy and that soon you’ll be laying your eyes on your 3rd precious child. So those BCPs that Homeschool Guru leaders have been bashing helped your body bring life. Love it!
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Reblogged this on flamesword ~ watching in the shadows and commented:
My main thought upon reading this article was ‘so that’s where the fear comes from.’ I knew that I grew up in an atmosphere that was permeated and surrounded by fear, and I even vaguely identified homeschooling and fundamentalism as the likely causes, with legalism being a separate problem that had the same causes. But I never really linked it that way before, that legalism IS fear, that is its only and inevitable result. Both the homeschooling and our church were steeped in legalism of various kinds, but if it had only been the church, it would have been far mitigated by a lot. Not nearly as entrenched and destructive as it became. Especially after we went the Gothard route and got into ATI, it was pure hell. We fortunately only followed that program for about two years, but the damage was lasting and intensive. I can’t imagine what it would be like for kids who were raised in it all the way. It kills your soul, not just ATI but all of it, the entire subculture in general is soaking in extra-Biblical legalism and patriarchy. You are stifled until you feel claustrophobic and you can’t breathe, no matter where you are or how open it is. God help you if you are born a woman.
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JA, A Mom: Just a friendly clarification: I cannot expecting those not in Presbyterianism to know how we function. And I would not expect you to even know who to contact. My intent was only to explain how we function, not to judge you and others as such. And I have no intent in trying to convince you of Presbyterianism. You and I have mutual concerns and I am doing what I can on my end, even if I am uncomfortable with making details public. Also, I am taking into account the concerns offered here, they are not being ignored. Please know that we do not constantly monitor each other in Presbyterianism and may not know about public statements until later when someone else tells us about it. And so you know: Presbyterians are not monolithic in how we apply Matthew 18. Some people would do it slower than others, other would be more public earlier in the process, etc. But we all try to agree to a particular path while mutually submitting to one another.
Thank you for your understanding and patience.
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Shawn,
Did I misunderstand you? My impression is that you are saying we should not speak out until internal processes of the Presbyterian church have come to completion, if ever.
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Julie Anne, I’m glad to hear this dialogue has been helpful to you, (and all without a therapy bill!!) though of course am I sorry as to its source. Something I wanted to add is that when people like Swanson spout this sort of easily disprovable nonsense, it really tarnishes all Christians, which is why it’s so important to speak out. So kudos to you in doing so. Also, I’ve found that that statement of wombs filled with dead fetuses is very much a vector for young homeschooled women to begin questioning the fundamental assumptions they’ve been taught. Because the information is so easily demonstrated to be patently false, young women who have heard it (and they’ve all heard it, I think) begin asking, OK, if my parents, pastor, homeschool textbooks and convention speakers lied about that, what else have they all lied about? The credibility gap begins there. There are two options — either forbid these women from ever getting on the internet and learning anything, ever, or don’t lie to them in the first place about basic, factual, scientific and medical information (and be willing to admit when you are wrong).
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Gary W:
Thank you for asking. You are misunderstanding me.
Concerning speaking out, you are all free to follow your consciences before God and His Word. As I am free to follow mine. I am not interesting in conversing on the merits of public exposure of public issues other than to say that people who speak in public should expect public replies. I am not seeking to convince or argue or judge people who disagree with me. I have given my opinion to JA above and will leave it at that. And please respect my, now explicit, desire to bow out of this conversation about what I am or am not doing about the concerns expressed here. Of course 🙂 you all have the freedom to talk about my not talking!
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
(PS: I am on vacation, so I better slow down my comments here before I forget to relax!)
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Kagi: It warms my heart to read your response. My only intent in writing about legalism in my last two articles is to help others identify what they went through; to put a name to it. I gave my wife my latest article to read (where I describe in detail the type of legalism I was referring to in the other article) and she could not fully grasp it. That was because she was blessed growing up.
When I described legalism as an atmosphere of fear I was describing my own experience. I know there are other problems besides fear and legalism, but I think it is a big part.
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I hope we as parents are really taking a close look at Kagi’s words. She beautifully expressed the toxic spiritual climate with ATI and what it produced in her. Where we as parents were hoping to get our children on the right path spiritually, some of the people we listened to produced the opposite result for our precious children. Kagi, thank you for speaking up. I’d love to know how you are doing. Previously, you have shared publicly about your relationship with your father and that there has been some positive movement there. If you feel comfortable, I’d love to read an update. I care about you, Kagi. Thanks for speaking out and sharing your experience so honestly and vulnerably.
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I wanted to pass this along. Look at what some HKs have put together: Coalition for Responsible Home Education
“OUR MISSION is to raise awareness of the need for homeschooling reform, provide public policy guidance, and advocate for responsible home education practices.”
I am so impressed with their work and their drive to protect homeschool children.
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Thanks for that link to the coalition. I have not read their entire site (not likely to!) but did check out their FAQ. So far, it is carefully worded. That is good. They are avoiding hasty generalizations and hyped language. For instance,
“Myth: Homeschooling is better than public schooling.
Fact: We actually do not know if homeschooling is better or worse than public schooling. Modern homeschooling is still a relatively new phenomenon and the data collected on it is very incomplete.”
I discovered through personal research about four years ago that there were many false facts presented in homeschooling circles, like the exaggeration of academic superiority of h/s. When you tell people that h/s as such makes smart kids (whatever that may mean) and a mother does not have a “smart” child, what kind of burden will she carry? False expectations create false guilt.
I would show people the original research wording and they still would not believe that h/s had no empirical evidence of academic superiority. I found that even the lauded Dr. Ray of NHERI admitted he had no proof. But he still works hard at it.
Another site useful, and more academic oriented (journal reviews, etc.), is a site I highly recommend for research: International Center for Home Education Research (ICHER. )–a nonpartisan, scholarly repository of all things homeschooling.
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Shawn: I showed them your comment. I think what you have discovered is what they have discovered as well. Several HKs (not sure they are all in this group) have issues with Dr. Ray and his “research.” If you look at the connections of these people, you will see they all have the same agenda and usually have very close ties. A biased researcher? hmmm
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Interesting link. Anyone else notice there are no homeschooling parents in this coalition?
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That’s a good point, Karen. This is brand spankin’ new. I think they are looking for constructive feedback and I have passed your comment along.
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Interesting point about there being no homeschool parents in the coalition. I think there is a lack of trust for homeschooling parents especially those that homeschooled during the heyday of ATI, Vision Forum, The Pearls, Bauchaum and Botkin. Many have seen their parents and/or their parent’s peers out right support, or at the very least, cave to the leadership of those that supported cult-like legalistic homeschooling.
I think many of us have to admit that in an effort not to have our children left out of groups and activities and in order to be accepted into the local “Christian” homeschooling scene we made the same compromises that we accused parents who put their kids in public schools of making. We put up with things we knew were wrong for a period of time to allow our children and our families to fit in, to have friends and a community. We were afraid to rock the boat and risk not be invited to the next field trip or co-op we did not want to be labeled “liberal” or the dreaded “not like-minded.” We were afraid of shunning.
These adult children have seen and understood these compromises for the hypocrisy they are and they want to go in a different direction and without input from those whom they feel were part of the problem. It saddens me but I understand and I am okay letting them make a go of it. I pray they do a better job than we who went before them and I am glad to see them taking a negative thing and attempting to salvage it.
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Sorry, but I haven’t read all the comments – but it seems to me that young adults in this nation are all having a difficult time and instead of blaming their parents, perhaps they should take a look at the present administration and policies put in place that are affecting their lives? Sad to say, both of my sons were gov’t educated and suffered persecution in school while I was a board member. But they persevered and grew to become moral men of character. No parent is perfect and it sounds to me like the complaining home schooled kids are being unrealistic. Instead of blessing God for giving them parents who truly tried to do the best for them, they sit around and blog about how they were mistreated and missed out on worldly things. Sorry, home schooled adults, but I think y’all need to grow up.
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Wow! I have started looking through the articles on the Coalition for Responsible Home Education website. My first gut reaction is relief that *somebody* is trying to *do* something about the abuses that take place under the guise of home education. I am reading this website not only from the perspective of a current home educator but also as the spouse of a woefully undereducated HK with no transcripts or diploma to his name. I am furious about that.
I *do* believe that home education can be done well, and should be a valid option for parent’s seeking what’s best for their children. But, I also believe parents should be held accountable when they fail to ensure their children are properly educated. A child’s education should not take a back seat to parent’s lifestyle choices. “Freedom of religion” should never be a cover-up for abuse and neglect.
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Where do all these blame-the-victims types, like Angela Wittman, come from? Do they often engage in their offensive, insensitive blame-shifting practices in order to offload the guilt and shame from their own shoulders? Or maybe they just have agendas to protect.
Plus which, I am quite proud of the responses of so many who were subjected to life numbing, sole destroying, legalistic, tyrannical practices at the hands of the very people who ought to have loved them the most really aren’t complaining. They are sounding the alarm. They are doing what they can to make sure others do not suffer what was inflicted on them.
And I am just as proud of the home schooling parents who have identified and are addressing things that need to be corrected so that home schooling can be done right.
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@Taunya on December 18, 2013 at 10:59am
Great comment! Yes, it would be wise for HS parents to come to grip with their own hypocrisy — those who need to.
I was never steeped in the teachings of those you mentioned, but I was around those who were and the pressure was there to conform.
I believe families should have the freedom to make the “best” choices for their children’s schooling. My children always did the standardized testing required by the state for public school children, although I am also concerned about teaching to the standards and not teaching how to think. They are two different things.
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Angela,
This is a blog about spiritual abuse in which victims are free to tell their stories. These homeschooled adults were victims of spiritual abuse and on this blog, we will not be telling victims to “grow up” and I won’t allow comments like that here. We will come alongside and support them in their journey of trying to recover from their abuses.
I find it interesting that you seem to shift blame to the victim rather than want to hold any parents accountable for their errors. If parents refuse to acknowledge and admit their role in this, it makes it difficult to change this abusive system. I have to admit, I’m shocked at your insensitive comment.
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Insensitive? My response was biblical and the last I’ll make here.
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Angela, thank you so much! You have demonstrated the truth of Taunya’s point beautifully.
This is exactly why CRHE — an organization that is taking a hard look at the homeschooling world and the policies that let so many homeschooled kids grow up abused and neglected — needs to be run by adults who were homeschooled and not by homeschooling parents, as the needs and perspectives are just totally different at the current moment.
As the organization has just launched, I’m sure that there will be a space for homeschooled parents to be involved in CRHE’s vision and mission — but not necessarily on homeschooling parents’ terms. The homeschooled kids have grown up to be adults, and they want to make the world a better place, even if it means ruffling some feathers. Y’all have got to let them leave the nest and stretch their wings. 🙂
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Angela, biblical? I’m just reading the NT for the first time now, and it seems like there’s some lines early in Matthew about judging lest not yet be judged. Maybe you should check it out!
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Angela,
I’m working on addressing this issue on my blog but want to consult with some top notch experts in the exit counseling arena first. The parents were what we call “first generation” members who chose of their own accord to join high demand groups. What they don’t realize because of their own experience is that the closed world of some of these spiritually abusive and exclusive groups ends up depriving children of certain elements of psychological growth and development because of the group agenda.
These adult children are called “Second Generation Adults” and face a very different set of challenges than their parents do. They never had any choice in the joining of these groups, and when they go to leave, they often don’t have resources to do so. (Some of the parents, particularly moms face this problem, too.) There is also the issue of ”bounded choice” wherein these adults seem like they have the choice to do things, but because of the baggage and limitations (poor education being one of them for too many), those choices aren’t really viable.
Those HKs have to contend with deficits that their parents don’t even realize — and they are painful for most parents to consider. Some suffer educational neglect. And think about it: if your child is just there as a mere arrow — objectified as a thing that is a weapon that must be acquired to win in some apocalyptic crisis under catastrophe to save the world — it can create some serious relationship problems. Love is often conditional in such situations because of the dynamics of the group which demand certain standards of conformity within families. I know in my own group (that one of the people featured in Joyce’s article grew up in), the first two kids in a large family received a good enough or excellent education, but a good number of the kids in families in this group that came later didn’t get beyond a third grade education. All the parents get focused on is character as was preached by Gothard and others.
Another good example of some of the problems that children face can be demonstrated in the lack of emotional development because family dysfunction is built right into the system. This is the whole theme of my site, Overcoming Botkin Syndrome. I also wrote about the primary tasks of childhood that are often neglected in these families ”in this series of posts.” Under the layer of the religious stuff, there is the genesis of problems within families, and that is augmented by any pre-existing problems (unfinished business, their own history, or even mental illness) that the parents may have apart from the high demand group. In that series, one of the false expectations that parents often have in high demand groups involves perfectionism, and from that we see the issues of corporal punishment and discipline. Gothard teaches that Christians have no rights, and that contributes to self-care deficits and views of personal worth. Boundaries are an issue, too.
That said, because of the deep trauma that results from these deficits, and considering that many suffered these problems at such a young age, most SGAs have to go back to work on skills, abilities and even self-soothing (including discomfort with ambiguity because of cultic black and white thought). That is apart from the religious stuff. So “just grow up” is not really that easy of a task. I speak from experience, and I’ve been working hard on this comprehensive growing up myself for 28 years. Though the parents who walk away from these high demand groups have their own struggles, the challenges that their children face should not be diminished. Believe me, they’re trying to grow up. They just have to do a lot of backtracking to figure out how to do that.
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On dec 18, 1:35 p.m. – Angela states this:
“Sorry, but I haven’t read all the comments – but it seems to me that young adults in this nation are all having a difficult time and instead of blaming their parents, perhaps they should take a look at the present administration and policies put in place that are affecting their lives? Sad to say, both of my sons were gov’t educated and suffered persecution in school while I was a board member. But they persevered and grew to become moral men of character. No parent is perfect and it sounds to me like the complaining home schooled kids are being unrealistic. Instead of blessing God for giving them parents who truly tried to do the best for them, they sit around and blog about how they were mistreated and missed out on worldly things. Sorry, home schooled adults, but I think y’all need to grow up.”
Ok Angela , I going to say this as succinctly as possible without being rude. I understand Patriarchy has been apart of your life and I pray you are on sites like this to learn more about what life is like outside of that world not to verbally assault anyone on here. Glad your boys flourished under persecution, praise God for that .
Now, some of this is going to be hard to read but I want you to understand what you are recommending we overlook as being simply ‘mistreated’ and that ‘we should all grow up from.’ The word is rape Angela. I was a stay at home daughter till I was 26- because it was the ‘biblical’ thing to do. I was homeschooled till my mom was so drugged up on meds to salve her conscience that they had to put me in private Christian school , where drugs found ME by my math teacher no less . From the years of 4-26 I was raped, beaten, sodomized- because no birth control ladies– all with scriptural backing . And you think I should grow up and get over being mistreated??!! They are lucky all I’m doing is blogging . I’m not alone in tragedies like this . And I have ‘grown up ‘ and moved past it and I now pray and spend time trying to make sure this never happens to anyone. Please choose your words carefully. There are human brings on the other side of your computer and the kind of thinking you are promoting could set someone years back in their progress. Please have compassion and learn that these things are real they are bad and they are being done in the name of being ‘biblical’. Walk carefully I beg you
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I understand Angela’s position well. I’m in an odd place in all of this because I attended some of these churches but never managed to produce children to homeschool. My peers and best friends are the homeschooling parents, but I tend to more strongly identify with the SGAs (the quivering daughters) because of my own personal experiences.
When working on the Quivering Daughters (QD) book in pre-publication, and after it was published, too, I have found that it is a very difficult and painful book to read for mothers. Their core motives were all good ones, but the problems imposed by the system did contribute to the deficits and issues that are faced by QDs. While in homeschooling also, these systems require that you derive your worth from your performance as a mother, and the proof of your worth comes through your children’s ability to meet the demands of the group. Reading a book like Quivering Daughters is difficult for most mothers who aren’t even in homeschooling because it does address the deficiencies that all fallible people can tend to have, even if they pale in comparison. It’s a very threatening thing for a mother in particular to read. It also threatens to rob that parent of their worth. The black and white thinking used in these groups tends to make it all seem that QDs are trying to say that the way they were raised was altogether terrible. That isn’t what’s being said, though I know that it is painful.
So I don’t take the criticism from the moms all that hard. There are good parents out there who are trying to own up to things. I get the sense that JA is one, and I know that Cindy Foster talks at length about her regrets as well. It’s a terrifying and harrowing process. But again this is just the difficult process of addressing the very different needs of the FGAs and the SGAs. And it’s a shame. The religious system demanded so much of all and the collateral damage seems to have no end. But try to have understanding for everyone. Everyone suffers in these things.
Here’s Cindy Foster’s blog:
http://baptisttaliban.blogspot.com/
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Angela,
Just as you were able to change your viewpoint about the Doug Phillips, I pray that your heart will remain soft and that you will dig deeper here into these issues we are addressing.
The Bible talks a lot about “fruit.” We can tell if something is good based on the fruit that is produced. There is rotten fruit coming out of the Homeschool Movement, much of it is because of men taking their own ideologies and trying to twist the Bible around their own agenda. This is not right.
It’s easy to say, “I”m not going to post anymore.” You’ve dished out some strong and insensitive words to some hurting individuals, claiming your words are “biblical.” The Bible also says to weep with those who weep and mourn with those who mourn. That’s not what I’m seeing from you.
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I’d also add that the HKs who are speaking up are not only doing so on their own behalf. They *know* that there are generations behind them still enduring the Pearl-style incessant beatings, isolation, educational neglect, arranged marriages, child labor, and, for some, sexual exploitation. How can one *not* speak up for those still in “the system?” To remain silent about such evil is to be complicit in it.
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Welcome stirringsofconsciousness,
I think you hit on an important part that many of this generation of homeschoolers missed: we do not own our adult children, PERIOD!!
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Angela Wittman,
Your comments here have been neither Biblical nor loving. Good riddance.
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Have any on you read Angela’s blog?
Where do all these blame-the-victim types like Angela come from? She is very political, and has articles and links to The National Reform Association ( Gary DeMarr). She also had an article and a link ( Nov. 20, 2011) to the Generations with Vision 2012 Family Ecomonics Conference…Kevin Swanson and R.C. Sproul, Jr.
It looks like Angela is connected to the Reconstructionists, and of course, she supports Patriarchy.
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stirrings of consciousness, you wrote:
The homeschooled kids have grown up to be adults, and they want to make the world a better place, even if it means ruffling some feathers.
Well, they are the SGAs (the Second Generation Adults), and they are entitled to their different perspectives. They have as much of a right to talk about their experiences in homeschooling, and they are not even trying to outlaw the choice of homeschooling. They’re trying to be agents of positive change, and they are asking for interested parents to consider their wisdom, valuable insights, and recognize the traumas that can be a pitfall if the conditions are right. They want others to avoid those pitfalls. They’re not repudiating their parents, nor homeschooling.
There’s actually a couple of social workers in the NYC area that host workshops for former member parents who are working through these painful issues, Bill and Lorna Goldberg. Its a huge problem in the aftermath after leaving a group. Dealing with the fallout is almost worse than the group experience. Another parent who is very honest about the problem relationships that he has with his children is a former member named Massoud Banisadr. I heard his presentation on the problems that his high demand group has created for his adult children (raised in the group) in Montreal last year, and I wept.
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