Former Long-Time Harvest Bible Chapel Elder Dave Corning Accuses Pastor James MacDonald of Abuse of Power, Lack of Accountability

187 thoughts on “Former Long-Time Harvest Bible Chapel Elder Dave Corning Accuses Pastor James MacDonald of Abuse of Power, Lack of Accountability”

1. Bravo to Dave Corning for speaking out about the abuses going on at Harvest Bible Chapel (Rolling Meadows, IL). Thank goodness for the Internet. It levels the playing field, so we can know all sides of the story. Thank you, Julie Anne, for reblogging it over here. The Elephant’s Debt website is very tightly moderated, and so it’s good to have a place for people who don’t attend HBC to speak out.

   LikeLike

2. How tragically familiar much of this sounds. Different country, different size church, same spirit. How can anyone who claims to follow Christ treat their brothers and sisters so un-lovingly?

   LikeLike

3. This doesn’t surprise me at all, and I know very little about James MacDonald. My experience with him consists of two chapel messages he gave when I was in college. In the first, I was already doubting my own salvation (something I had no cause to doubt, and something I had never struggled with before) and he said that if God hadn’t spoken to you during his message, you weren’t a real Christian. To put it mildly, it was not helpful. The second time all I can remember is that he did nothing but namedrop and talk about how he had met Tiger Woods. I think even my friend who was sitting with me, who was much less cynical than I am, was making sarcastic comments about him.

   I’m not surprised, and I’m glad other people are coming forward, and I’m glad the truth is coming out. But what a disaster, and what a trainwreck.

   LikeLike

4. My heart is grieved as I read this blog featuring the letter by Dave Corning. What a courageous man who has most certainly suffered great damage at the hands of his former pastor. As a domestic violence professional, I saw many of the tactics of the abuser in this letter, illustrated best by the power and control wheel (http://www.theduluthmodel.org/pdf/PowerandControl.pdf) I was hopeful that someone had modified the wheel for spiritual abuse but could not find one in a cursory search this morning. But certainly James McDonald is an abuser in every sense of the word.

   I’ve had many victims of domestic violence tell me that they often wished their perpetrator would just go ahead and hit them–that the verbal and emotional abuse was by far the most difficult to heal from. I think their assessment of abuse is so applicable to victims of spiritual abuse. The bruises impact the very essence of a person’s spirituality–their view of themselves and their view of God. So I think of all that are still at Harvest and who are being abused without even knowing that they are. And I wonder how many decades it will take for them to recover once they realize the damage they have suffered. And how many will walk away from faith for good when their eyes are opened.

   God help us. God have mercy. Thanks JA for posting this letter and writing on this topic.

   LikeLike

5. “He (James MacDonald) has worked behind the scenes to destroy our reputations, our ministries, even our livelihoods.”

   This is very typical and happens a lot to those who dissent at that level. It seems the only way the celebrity can prove their innocence to others is to ruin the person who dissented.

   This shows the depths of the rotten core with the fake layers on top. They already have the bully pulpit and power so the efforts to marginalize or ruin people who have dissented is superfluous. There is a deeper evil involved where ruining them makes the celebrity feel vindicated. It is evil pure and simple and I have seen it quite a bit in mega churches. the pew sitters rarely know what is going on. They just keep giving their money and enjoying the show.

   It is truly amazing how easily we fall for someone on a stage. When the reality is we only know their “stage” persona.

   LikeLike

6. I’ve got more to say, but I was informed that today is International Talk Like a Pirate Day and so I typed my brief rant about the situation into an English to Pirate translator and got this message:

   The pirate speaks,”I’m so tired o’ bully pastors who build an empire for themselves, take wealth for themselves and neglect and abuse their unsuspectin’ church members. “

   Yea, that works for me at this moment.

   http://www.talklikeapirate.com/translator.html

   LikeLike

7. Brenda compares the strategies of spiritual abusers to the strategies of perpetrators of domestic violence, as illustrated by the Duluth Model Power and Control Wheel. The means may vary, but the strategies of spiritual abusers (intimidation, emotional abuse, exertion of male privilege, etc.) match those of DV perps, category by category. As of yesterday I had difficulty seeing how spiritual and DV abusers both used children to manipulate, but I now see that this is exactly what spiritual abusers do when they separate followers from their families. Who would not think twice before leaving a “church” if they realized it would result in being separated from their adult children who stay behind in that same “church?”

   Sexual and physical violence are depicted on the perimeter of the DV Power and Control Wheel. It is difficult to see how the perpetration of sexual violence is used to advance the ends of institutional “church.” Still, how many “pastors” have seduced staff and congregants? How often has the seduction been perpetrated, not from lust, but in the pursuit of a sociopathic/psychopathic urge to dominate? How often has sexual misconduct, including the commission of sexual crimes against minors, gone unreported in the interests of institutional reputation? In such instances the omission, the failure report, is as morally culpable as the commission of the crime itself. Fortunately, such omissions have also now largely become matters of criminal culpability. Finally, how often are sexual crimes against minors perpetrated in the pursuit of a sociopathic/psychopathic urge to dominate, and not just out of perverted lust?

   I am not aware of any instances of physical violence being perpetrated as a strategy of power and control in a modern ecclesiastical setting. However, I see the kinds of retaliatory conduct described by Dave Corning as being the moral and functional equivalent of physical violence. The assassination of another’s character is every bit an act of violence. It is not unreasonable to suspect that, were it not for the constraining influence of the God-ordained civil authorities, the ecclesiastical powers would even now be roasting (not burning, but roasting) their detractors at the stake. Over low burning, slow killing, excruciatingly painful coals.

   LikeLike

8. Ok, all silliness aside, I woke up this morning and could not get out of my mind the 83 THOUSAND Twitter followers. How many go to the church? How influential is this man? How many have been deceived, duped, put this man on a pedestal and have been instead drinking KoolAid? How many souls has He confused, shamed? How many people have questioned their faith and been brought down so low?

   Did you read Sarah’s comment above? Unreal!! So you are not a real Christian if God didn’t speak to you through MacDonald? That is wrong, wrong, wrong. All Christians have equal access to God. No pastor has any better access to God than an ordinary church member. God does not give a direct line to pastors and then charge long-distance for mere members. If your pastor has taught you to believe he has special spiritual privileges because of his “position of authority,” that is not in any translation of Bible I own. Let’s see, I have NASB, NIV, ESV, NKJV, etc. It is not there. That is phony balony made up junk to elevate a MAN.

   LikeLike

9. Julie Anne,

   The best I can tell, there is even less indication of some sort of “position of authority” in the New Testament Greek than in the English translations. Just as an example, there are various places where the English translations refer to an “office” (implying authority), except that there is no such word in the Greek text. When it comes to the appearance of the word “office” in the New Testament, the translators just made it up and stuck it in.

   We may be extraordinarily grateful that we are given the Holy Spirit, and not theologians and other “scholars,” to guide us into all truth.

   LikeLike

10. “Ok, all silliness aside, I woke up this morning and could not get out of my mind the 83 THOUSAND Twitter followers. How many go to the church? How influential is this man? How many have been deceived, duped, put this man on a pedestal and have been instead drinking KoolAid? How many souls has He confused, shamed? How many people have questioned their faith and been brought down so low? ”

    Julie Anne, As someone who comes from that sort of world, I can assure that most of the 83 thou have no clue about the depths of his depravity and probably don’t want to know. Don’t discount the major marketing dollars spent to promote a brand. James also has a huge following in his para church ministry which adds to his already bulging bottom line and popularity.

    At some point, we have to admit that people like to follow celebrities whether they are in Christendom or People magazine. There are many people out there who think if you are on Christian radio you are the real thing. Others think that if other celeb gurus invite them to speak that is a good housekeeping seal of approval. It is amazing what people will or won’t believe that is inconvenient to them.

    This stuff grows to the point that they are “too big” to fail if you get my drift. A lot of people who have poured money into these personalities and their shrines will never admit they backed a fraud. Pride is a huge factor. People like to think it was all done for the glory of God when it really was really done to the glory of a few men.

    I have heard of him for years but never really checked his stuff out. When he wrote the piece, “congregationalism is from satan”, I kind of figured there was more to the story for him to be so blatant. Then I found out about the Elephant Debt blog. Reading that sounded so familiar to me. I am simply astonished that many people involved at that level have the nerve to speak out so freely. That is unheard of in those circles. Let us hope there will be more of it in other places that need a good airing.

    LikeLike

11. I love the pirate talk, wench. Hee Hee

    LikeLike

12. Lydia writes, ” A lot of people who have poured money into these personalities and their shrines will never admit they backed a fraud.”

    Jesus says, “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” (Matthew 6:21, ESV)

    Would it be overly cynical to suspect that congregants are in many instances encouraged to give and give and give, not just as a means of maintaining a “ministry” kingdom, but also as a means of locking in loyalty?

    LikeLike

13. From the letter: “People should not be disciplined over the Internet and they should not be disciplined for something the elders are assuming they will do. In fact, church discipline in no way applies to these men. ”

    This is another typical pattern. The very first time we heard we were in “church discipline” was on a response to the negative Google review. A church member Stephanie (who is still there) said something to the effect that Julie Anne and her family are in church discipline. Ok – – I wrote that review maybe a year after we left (I’d have to look that up, but it was quite a while). How in the world do you get in church discipline a year after you leave a church? Church discipline according to the by-laws only happens to church members. We were not members of that church. Also, it is done in the church and before the body. I have the by-laws. My former pastor, Chuck O’Neal, who sued 5 people for $500,000 acted on his own, not within the established guidelines and policies of the church, when he claimed to put us in church discipline. He behaved like a bully and continues to behave like a bully claiming we are still in church discipline. The reality is we are NOT in church discipline based on the church’s policies.

    Ok, Harvest Bible folks – pull out your church by-laws and see for yourselves. Did your pastor, James MacDonald follow his church’s own by-laws or constitution when putting elders into church discipline? Go and see for yourselves. I’d love for someone from HBC to report back here what the rules are for church discipline.

    LikeLike

14. “We have not been divisive or deceptive or ever posted anything before this response. In many ways we feel we should have spoken out earlier but we chose to remain silent out of deference for many good people at Harvest. Now, however, I cannot stand back and see the godly reputations of former elders and friends be destroyed.”

    I think I can spend all day tearing apart this letter. This is one of the sad parts that I find so often. There are many who could have and still could stand up against my former pastor. Silence does not protect. It enables abuse to continue. It is not wrong to say the truth. When you think of the lives at stake, I believe it is more important to speak up and say the truth. You don’t have to be a bully about it, one letter like this can suffice. But it needs to come out.

    LikeLike

15. “Would it be overly cynical to suspect that congregants are in many instances encouraged to give and give and give, not just as a means of maintaining a “ministry” kingdom, but also as a means of locking in loyalty?”

    Good question but loyalty only goes so far and is not something mega’s do real well when it comes to money. They know, for example, that money flows when people are in the pews. That is key. People who don’t attend but are members do not usually tithe as in regularly send money in. In megas the percentage that actually tithe regular are anywhere from 3 to 20% of the members and that won’t pay the high salaries and huge electric bills. People tend to pay when they are there and the key is making it very easy for them to pay (we take credit cards) and a bit of peer pressure at the moment of the offering for a bit of competition in the pews. And in most megas there are tons of income streams all around you if you are aware of what to look for. A bookstore, coffee place, sermons for sale, you name it.

    Not long ago, a friend called me up to say her mega was giving away “The Story” that particular Sunday. But all over the vast church and it’s many buildings (even in the SS classrooms) were signs asking for donations of at least 10 dollars if you took one. She said most people were giving them 20 bucks. She “bought” one and then noticed when she got home printed on the back of it in bold: Not for resale.

    So, how much did “The Story” cost them? Not much and they made a huge profit off that small gig.

    That is one example out of hundreds. I could tell you about the half million dollar impromptu offering taken up for victims following the Tsunami that years later NOT ONE CENT had gone to any victims or even to the countries where it took place. No follow up or stewardship from the pew sitters who so freely gave it for the victims.

    And, people like to back what they perceive as a winner. Ever notice that?

    This is what I mean about the rotten core and peeling away the fake layers that look so nice. People have no clue how rotten the core is. And frankly those who are the rotten core, have no idea either as it is their normal. It is what Christianity is to them.

    LikeLike

16. Julie Anne

    You write @ SEPTEMBER 19, 2013 @ 7:27 AM…
    “All Christians have equal access to God. No pastor has any better access to God than an ordinary church member. God does not give a direct line to pastors and then charge long-distance for mere members…. That is phony balony made up junk to elevate a MAN.”

    First – I like balony – especially fried – with fried onions and cheese – a lot… 😉
    On dark Russian Pumpernickel – Isn’t “Pumpernickel” a great word? 😉

    http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/119970123-bologna-and-cheese-on-pumpernickel-photos-com.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=B53F616F4B95E5537AA1203A10631F6FFD46E7D9EAE4C7E1A2CB9ECAB3651D247F3253EB5DA4A499

    And Second – “All Christians have equal access to God.”
    “No pastor has any better access to God than an ordinary church member.”

    But – Only todays – pastor/leader/reverends – have access to the pulpit.

    And – Today’s – pastors – act like they are a little more equal then the rest of us.

    Heard one pastor say – We are ALL equal…
    And the pastor is just – the first among equals… Oy Vey!!!

    Here is the only Shepherd I know who can claim – First among equals.

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    LikeLike

17. “Ithink I can spend all day tearing apart this letter. This is one of the sad parts that I find so often. There are many who could have and still could stand up against my former pastor. Silence does not protect. It enables abuse to continue. It is not wrong to say the truth:”

    Thank you Julie Anne. You would not believe how often I heard that same excuse from people around the leadership. As if God does not know and they are protecting God’s reputation when in reality they are smearing it by staying silent. Sheesh!

    Notice how apologetic folks are who finally speak out. They know what is about to fall on them. They understand the power because they were once part of it. They know they will not be believed but instead ruined and marginalized.

    They are doing the right thing because one day we will all give an account for what we have done in His Name while here. Better to be ruined here telling the truth even if much later than we should have waited…… than face our Master as less than good and faithful servants to Him.

    LikeLike

18. When I was even younger than I am now, Richard Nixon was taken to task for having claimed that his detractors were blaspheming him. According to the usual definition, blasphemy can only be committed against deity.

    Dave Corning informs us that James MacDonald accused him and others of “blaspheming the church. . .” Assuming this is accurate, MacDonald is admitting, however unwittingly, that he views “church” as occupying the place of deity. MacDonald sets up “church” as a false god and idol, to which, no doubt, all honor and power and money and glory are due. Except that this, maybe, only works for him personally if “church” occupies the place of a narcissistic alter or narcissistic extension, so that what he demands to be rendered to “church” is but a veiled demand that those same things be rendered to him personally? Just asking the question. I do not have a sufficient basis to actually accuse.

    Then again, again, dictionary.com gives us this as a theological definition of blasphemy: “[T]he crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.”

    Hmmm.

    LikeLike

19. Lydia informs us, “I could tell you about the half million dollar impromptu offering taken up for victims following the Tsunami that years later NOT ONE CENT had gone to any victims or even to the countries where it took place.”

    If that isn’t criminal, it ought to be. If it is a crime where the fraud was perpetrated, I wonder if the statute of limitations has run. Maybe not if the statute begins to run upon discovery of the crime.

    LikeLike

20. Left HBC a few years ago. Saw the writing on the wall and just couldn’t stomach it anymore.

    In terms of control: I actually think the children’s ministry is a way to control the parents. I’ve heard some parents debate leaving solely based on the children’s ministry. This is how children are used in this scenario.

    LikeLike

21. Hi AJ – Welcome and thanks for your comment. Can you explain a little more what you mean? How do they control the parents through the children’s ministry?

    LikeLike

22. I’m pretty sure that’s criminal and constitutes some kind of fraud. There was a person locally who solicited donations to help with her son’s “cancer.” He did not have cancer and she was charged with fraud. If the money was given with the intent of helping tsunami victims and was never used for that purpose, that sounds like a legitimate crime.

    LikeLike

23. Well – Well – Well…

    I just checked the Church Gov’t page for – Harvest Bible Chapel…
    http://www.harvestbiblechapel.org/10780/content/content_id/271412/Church-Government

    And lo and behold, the Senior Pastor is called – First Among Equals…

    Senior Pastor
    The Harvest Bible Chapel Senior Pastor *automatically serves as an elder* and, because of his public presence and responsibility before the congregation, may be considered **first among equals** as a member of the Elder Board. The Senior Pastor should be gifted primarily as a preacher/teacher and as a leader.

    Yup – Senior Pastor is the top Dog…

    And – Maybe someone can help? Maybe I missed it – BUT…

    Just where do I find a Senior Pastor in the Bible? 😉
    And where do I find Church Goverenment in the Bible? 😉

    And – How come the “Senior Pastor *automatically serves as an elder* ?”
    NO Qualifications needed???

    So many questions – So little time… 😉

    LikeLike

24. The sad reality, which I mentioned to Ryan at The Elephant’s Debt, is that much harm is done to the Body of Christ when there is spiritual abuse.

    Including and especially the “Take Your God And Shove It!” reaction.

    Where God or Christ (or anything to do with same) evokes the same reaction as a swastika to an old Jew with a number tattooed on his/her arm.

    LikeLike

25. “And lo and behold, the Senior Pastor is called – First Among Equals…”

    First among equals, just like the Pope. I’ve never seen it so blatantly acknowledged, but I sure have been in a number of evangelical Protestant “churches” where the “pastor” was every bit a pope withing the particular local “church” organization in which he was served. Yes, I said “in which he was served.”

    LikeLike

26. Amos,

    Thank you for pointing out the interesting statement on the HBC website:
    “… the Senior Pastor is called – First Among Equals…”

    Isn’t that what the Catholic Church calls the Pope?

    It brings up the old joke that Baptists don’t believe in the Pope, but every church has one. Or every megachurch?

    Here’s an academic analysis of megachurches — why they arose and where they are going:
    http://divinity.uchicago.edu/martycenter/publications/sightings/archive_2010/0607.shtml

    LikeLike

27. I’m so sick and tired of celebrity preachers. Sick of them!

    Students going to Bible schools and seminaries should face real standardized academic psychological tests and screening as a part of their application process. This should be done to help filter out flaky charismatic personalities, child abusers, narcissists and sociopaths and other psychologically unstable people from the profession of pastor. We have rigorous screening procedures for doctors, dentists, engineers etc., and people in those professions have to take really difficult course work. Yes, the occasional flakes make it into those professions, but it is rare. Why can’t we do the same for pastors and theologians?

    A criminal records check should also be performed, not only for stuff like child or spousal abuse, but also for past records of theft or fraud.

    Also, I think it should be necessary for prospective pastors to have at least ten years of work experience in the private sector before ordination. They need to learn to live and work and earn their keep like the rest of us plebeians.

    LikeLike

28. Hmmm? Qualifications??? For Elder/Overseer??? Does anybody even care???

    How many congregations? How many 501 (c) 3, non-profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporations, that the IRS calls church? How many believers? How many “Senior/Pastor/Reverends?”

    Take Paul’s/God’s qualifications for “Elder/Overseer” seriously today?

    How many even know what the Qualifications are???

    If they did, maybe ugly scenes like this one could have been avoided. Yes?
    Harvest Bible Chapel lists some of the Qualifications – But do they care???

    I’ve noticed, most congregations, most elder/overseers today “Ignore” or “Twist” the “Qualifications” in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, so they could obtain for themselves this “Title/Postion” that comes with – Power – Profit – and – Prestige.

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    LikeLike

29. Interestingly. as wolves go they are after the money. If one was to follow the money trail at BGBC pretty sure one would see deceptive practice there as well. The Willamette Weekly article does mention the attendance dropped from around 150 to 70 after the ‘split’. The Word of God leads believers to all truth, grateful that Dave has been shown and led from this corruptive place, can’t call it a church.
    Thank you for showing how the spiritually corrupt take by force and scar true believers.

    LikeLike

30. I also like to point out – 1 Cor 5:9-13 – As Qualifications for elder/overseer.
    Because Paul does say in verse 13…
    Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

    And Paul, in verse 11, says…
    NOT to keep company, “IF any man” that is called a brother be a…
    1 – fornicator – male prostitute, unlawful sexual intercourse.
    2 – covetous – one eager to have more, greedy of gain.
    3 – idolater – server of idols, worshippers of Mammon, false gods.
    4 – railer – complain or protest strongly and persistently about.
    …………….. criticize in an abusive or angrily insulting manner.
    5 – drunkard – a person who is habitually drunk.
    6 – extortioner – the practice of obtaining money through force or threats.
    with such an one NO not to eat.

    I’d like to see this list enforced in Today’s “Corrupt Religious System.”
    They’ll be a lot more empty pews and empty pulpits.

    Looks like another list of qualifications for Today’s “pastor/elder/overeer.”
    How many “pastor/elder/overeers” left in the pulpits after this. Not many.

    BUT, if they are “corrupt” will they remove themselves?
    And be a good example to the flock? 😉

    1 – fornicator – Lot’s of Pastors running away with the church secretary.
    Having affairs with a male masseuse. Having a problem with porn.
    Stats are 35-50% Pastors battle with Porn. Over 33% have had an affair.
    Will they remove themselves? Or, show a willingness to act dishonestly?
    Lot’s of empty pulpits on the way if this is enforced.

    2 – covetous – for “Titles” Power, Profit, Prestige, Glory, Honor,
    To be well known and have “Recognition” as a Christian “Leader.”
    Who gets to decide if a Pastor is greedy for gain in these area’s?
    Will they remove themselves? Don’t hold your breath.
    Lot’s of empty pulpits on the way if this is enforced.

    3 – idolaters – making “Idols” of their “Titles”and “Reputation,”
    And put that “Title” “Pastor” with their name, every place to be seen.
    On office walls, office doors, Sunday morning bulletin’s, sermons,
    books, street side signs, business cards, websites, speaking conferences,
    as guest speaker, along with all their degrees and accomplishments.
    Sounds like they’re speaking of themselves and seeking their own glory.
    When their “Title” and “Position” becomes an “Idol,”
    Will they remove themselves? Not likely.
    Lot’s of empty pulpits on the way if this is enforced.

    6 – extortioner – Heard Pastors say, if you don’t tithe, give ten percent
    of your gross income, to this church, you’re robbing God and
    you’re under a curse. And further more, it’s to be tithes and offerings,
    the tithe is the minimum, offerings are over and above.
    Hmmm? – the practice of obtaining money through force or threats.
    Will they remove themselves? Probable not.
    Lot’s of empty pulpits on the way if this is enforced.

    How many of these “pastor/elder/overseers” do you eat with? 😉

    I follow Paul’s advice and do not keep company with these,
    fornicators, covetous, idol worshipping, extorioners. 😉

    I do keep company with pastors who are burnt out, can’t do it anymore,
    and realize, **they have believed the lie,** they’re a special clergy class,
    they’re called, they’re leaders, they’re pastors, they’re responsible.

    That’s when the healing of their broken hearts begin…

    When you recognise the lie, and repent, healing and a new life is sent…

    The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is
    there is liberty. AAAHHH!!! Freedom…

    Thank You Jesus…

    LikeLike

31. Ryan, I really do not think such a practice would work. You would not believe the narcissists that fake out counselors and how many psychologists are narcissist. Measuring such a thing is almost impossible. Same with some variations of sociopathy.

    What would work is educating people. People should know the person who is teaching them spiritual things quite well. The whole “relationship” piece is missing and we are once again adopting the methods of the magisterium of the Puritans with these “separated out” clergy class.

    I think there might be a bright spot in some places…a tiny light. We have generation coming up that knows nothing else but constant interaction through technology and even in the classrooms. They have been schooled on activities and interaction for learning. They are not good at sitting and listening to the pontificator lecture them. They want interaction. So, I am not sure what passes for pastor today is going to work all that well in the next 10-15 years. And without that, not sure how all this is going to fall out.

    But then again, we are turning out good little socialists so who knows?

    I am watching another trend in other venues of Christendom. While Rob Bell is old news as a heretic, Pete Rollins as the hot new thing is gaining traction. What does he tell folks who come to listen to him? Don’t believe “me”. (I have to admit I love that even though I have a hard time defining his beliefs but he might be a universalist?)

    Just like I loved it when John Immel of Spiritual Tyranny refuses to give his pedigree when speaking. He knows as we all must that only ideas and truth matter. Not your seminary education. (That is not a plus for me at all and I still chuckle when my then 5 year old daughter referred to it as the “cemetery”

    Also gaining traction is Greg Boyd for Open Theists and some Ana Baptist movements springing up in total opposition to the Calvinist resurgence. I watch all this with fascination. I am not a “movement” person so won’t join in but love spotting trends early on and watching their trajectory.

    LikeLike

32. Lydia

    Every time I start to think of joining a – New Movement…

    I call an EX-pastor friend…

    We go down to the ocean where the waves “Crash”

    And we eat a box of “Prunes.” 😉

    LikeLike

33. Ryan,
    You wrote: “Students going to Bible schools and seminaries should face real standardized academic psychological tests and screening as a part of their application process. This should be done to help filter out flaky charismatic personalities, child abusers, narcissists and sociopaths and other psychologically unstable people from the profession of pastor.”

    I think that people can become corrupted by power over time. They might have started in ministry well, but the authority goes to their head and makes them arrogant. Scripture says that good leaders can go bad.

    “…and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” Acts 20:30

    LikeLike

34. Lydia, you raise some excellent points. The other side of the equation is to educate people about narcissists and sociopaths in general. We should be making it increasingly difficult for those type of people to find work, no matter the profession.

    I’m no fan of the emergent church movement or Open Theism because of their doctrines, but I understand their attraction for some people who are spiritual. They provide alternatives for people who have been burned by Calvinism.

    You mentioned about the younger generation wanting interaction. It is interesting that you mentioned this. My only church experience is often a weekly interactive and highly academic Bible study. Though we do get into practical matters as well. The study group requires a rotation of leader every week, and everyone in the group must be leader in rotation. No one in the group is allowed to be merely a follower. Even the baby Christian in the group has to prepare a message and we study it, no matter how simple it may be. I can see this type of model being successful in the future. Maybe the spiritual marketplace will help to weed out the bully pulpit, at least I hope so.

    LikeLike

35. I think that people can become corrupted by power over time. They might have started in ministry well, but the authority goes to their head and makes them arrogant. Scripture says that good leaders can go bad.

    “…and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” Acts 20:30
    ”

    Good point.

    Then there are others who would have found a “stage” and followers somewhere. Driscoll and Mahaney come to mind.

    LikeLike

36. “You mentioned about the younger generation wanting interaction. It is interesting that you mentioned this. My only church experience is often a weekly interactive and highly academic Bible study. Though we do get into practical matters as well. The study group requires a rotation of leader every week, and everyone in the group must be leader in rotation. No one in the group is allowed to be merely a follower. Even the baby Christian in the group has to prepare a message and we study it, no matter how simple it may be. I can see this type of model being successful in the future. Maybe the spiritual marketplace will help to weed out the bully pulpit, at least I hope so.”

    Ryan, this is excellent! I absolutely love this. What an encouragement for the baby Christian when they are respected like this as a functioning member of the body.

    LikeLike

37. Brent Halvorsen. Elders of Harvest West Minneapolis. Steve Deedrick and elders of Harvest Rochester. Men of character and integrity who I KNOW love Christ and serve Him. Step up to the plate and get this yoke off of our backs! What can possibly be gained by inaction or silence on this matter? Are you really that scared that these plants cannot function on our own? Are you truly duped by this con man? Do you not see the heartache and hurt this will eventually cause us? What good are you doing by either sweeping this under the rug or ignoring it or even continuing to support this man’s ministry/fellowship? Our congregations will all learn the TRUTH sooner or later! God grant that it be sooner. If I have anything to say about it it will be. I call on you in the name of Jesus to BE the men who I KNOW you are!

    Moderator note: This “anonymous” is not the same as “Anonymous” who earlier posted. Notice small “a” and capital “a”. ~ja

    LikeLiked by 1 person

38. “I’m no fan of the emergent church movement or Open Theism because of their doctrines, but I understand their attraction for some people who are spiritual. They provide alternatives for people who have been burned by Calvinism.”

    New movements tend to “over correct” from the reigning movement of the time. Seems to be a historical principle. Look at the history of presidential elections. :o)

    LikeLike

39. So, evidently, sometime between the time I posted this blog post and now, the Twitter account @JamesMacDonald has blocked me. This is a very common pattern we have seen time and again here. They are afraid of conflict or confrontation – especially by a ranting redhead woman. Notice the black message at the top showing I am blocked.

    

    LikeLike

40. What manly men, JA!

    LikeLike

41. Ryan

    This is a breath of fresh air…
    “No one in the group is allowed to be merely a follower. Even the baby Christian in the group has to prepare a message and we study it, no matter how simple it may be.”

    Sounds great

    LikeLike

42. anonymous, when a church is built on the cult of personality, there is little chance of them recognizing the real problem.

    LikeLike

43. Julie Anne, deep down they are cowards, they are not manly men. They remind me of some jocks who whenever they get in trouble run to their mommies.

    LikeLike

44. Lydia I know you and you know me, let’s just say we’ve “met” before. I can promise you in both cases our churches up here were started by honorable, godly men who just happened to fall into the snare of a man who has duped literally thousands. Just as many here and elsewhere have vouched for Dave Corning’s character and integrity and for the others who have spoken up, so I can vouch for their integrity. These are godly men. They may be blinded at the moment, but they will see.

    LikeLike

45. I can just imagine the frantic “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain” messages going out to all Harvest plants right now. I can only pray that the true men of character and integrity will hear and know the truth.

    LikeLike

46. Tessie

    You write…
    “The Word of God leads believers to all truth, grateful that Dave has been shown and led from this corruptive place, can’t call it a church.”

    “Thank you for showing how **the spiritually corrupt**
    take by force and scar true believers.”

    Amen – “you can’t call it a church.”

    And I call these 501 (c) 3, non-profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious Corporations, that the IRS calls church…

    “The Corrupt Religious System” of today.

    Seems it only took 300 plus years when Constantine, a Roman Emperor, got the ball rolling for a state religion to be known as Christian-dumb. And believers became hooked up with, and now dependent on, the secular government.

    Nah – I don’t think this partnership, secular government and Jesus followers, has worked out so well for His Church, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Called Out Ones, His Bride. 😉

    Just like today – People become dependant on the Gov’t to help them…
    Whether in the Body – Or in the World…

    When Jesus says – Come unto me all that labour and are heavy laden.
    I’ll be your security, your provider… Trust me…

    I like Jesus – a Lot… 😉

    LikeLike

47. A couple of scriptures come to mind here.

    2 Cor. 5:12 (NLT)
    (Paul) Are we commending ourselves to you again? No, we are giving you a reason to be proud of us, so you can answer those who brag about having a spectacular ministry rather than having a sincere heart.

    2 Cor 11:19-20 (NLT)
    After all, you think you are so wise, but you enjoy putting up with fools! You put up with it when someone enslaves you, takes everything you have, takes advantage of you, takes control of everything, and slaps you in the face.

    As some of these churches pursue “growth” they become materially successful, but spiritually bankrupt.

    LikeLike

48. As another ex-HBCer, I am trying to distance myself from second hand facts. There is obviously cause for concern and one thing that bothers me most is JM’s unwillingness (guilty or innocent) to step down, out of the lime light (aka pulpit) and allow this to be sorted out with ALL the facts. His unwillingness to spare the congregation of HBC as a whole (worldwide) from slander, gossip and the world that is searching for Christian hypocrisy, until the whole truth is put before the congregation, is amazing selfish.

    LikeLike

49. Julie Anne

    The pirate speaks,”I’m so tired o’ bully pastors who build an empire for themselves, take wealth for themselves and neglect and abuse their unsuspectin’ church members. “

    Not bad, but could maybe use a few more “Arrgghs!” 🙂

    As I read it, I imagined you wearing an eye patch, squinting your other eye, with a pipe hanging from your mouth, wearing a fake peg leg, to get that full pirate effect.

    LikeLike

50. I’m not saying this is true of MacDonald, but I have read articles about companies who provide followers for your Twitter account.

    If you pay them a fee, these companies increase your follower account, and IIRC, they’re not legitimate, real people behind each account.

    Companies Inflate Their Twitter Follow Numbers:

    Many of the alleged Twitter followers for some companies are bots created by marketers to make the company look more popular. Larry Greenemeier reports

    LikeLike

51. @ JA~

    “So, evidently, sometime between the time I posted this blog post and now, the Twitter account @JamesMacDonald has blocked me. This is a very common pattern we have seen time and again here. They are afraid of conflict or confrontation – especially by a ranting redhead woman.”

    @ lydiasop~

    “What manly men, JA! ”

    Woweeeee–is this the kind of stuff manlymen wannabes get to learn at MacDonald’s upcoming Act Like Men Conference? How to block those irritating truth exposers on twitter/FB?

    “Act Like Men is a two-day men’s event for those of us who are tired of following the world’s idea of who we are supposed to be. It’s time for us to not only hear, but take to heart what God has to say about being men, husbands, and fathers who live boldly for Jesus Christ above all else.

    We will seize this opportunity together to learn how to live out our calling to become the men God desires.”

    rotflol

    LikeLike

52. As another ex-HBCer, I am trying to distance myself from second hand facts. There is obviously cause for concern and one thing that bothers me most is JM’s unwillingness (guilty or innocent) to step down, out of the lime light (aka pulpit) and allow this to be sorted out with ALL the facts. His unwillingness to spare the congregation of HBC as a whole (worldwide) from slander, gossip and the world that is searching for Christian hypocrisy, until the whole truth is put before the congregation, is amazing selfish.

    Sadly, this is common place among those who spiritually abuse. They cannot see beyond themselves. Pastors are in such a unique position to be able to influence people’s lives in such personal ways. Who else can get into your personal business like a pastor? Sadly, the profession appeals to narcissists and is in the top 10 professions for narcissists. Narcissists cannot see beyond themselves because everything is about them. MacDonald will use his field of influence and build others’ egos and in turn, they will continue to build his ego. It takes a very strong person – someone who must separate themselves from that strong drive and must realize what is going on – -to leave that system. There is a false safety and security being part of his team of “yes men.” If you leave that false safety/security, however, there is a price to be paid: ostracizing, shunning, slander, etc.

    LikeLike

53. “They are afraid of conflict or confrontation – especially by a ranting redhead woman.”

    Am thinking real men aren’t afraid of truth speaking, light shining women, redheaded or otherwise.

    LikeLike

54. lydiasellerofpurple,
    if you have a blog with more stories like that, I’d be interested in reading them. I’m amazed.

    Christianity as I see it in the Bible is so different from the mega churches you’re describing. Christ warns repeatedly about loving wealth and chasing after it, and putting people second, etc.

    The mega church tele evangelists I see on TV seem so friendly and warm. They project an image of being warm and fuzzy.

    If you don’t have a blog with these stories, maybe you could create one, just re telling your different experiences, or those like your friend who spent $10 on the DVD?

    LikeLike

55. Diane – Would you please stop it, already!! Now I have more Twittering to do after you reminded me that MacDonald is connected with that manly “Act Like Men” conference! :::::snort::::: hahahahaha

    LikeLike

56. https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep/status/380777604971651072

    LikeLike

57. Ryan said

    Students going to Bible schools and seminaries should face real standardized academic psychological tests and screening as a part of their application process. This should be done to help filter out flaky charismatic personalities, child abusers, narcissists and sociopaths and other psychologically unstable people from the profession of pastor

    I’m a broken record on this blog and at a few others, and I apologize. But, I can’t help but point out a few things when I see them brought up.

    This problem of jerks being promoted or being in charge, while their victims get blamed and asked to leave (rather then the jerk being asked to leave), happens in other areas of life.

    I was bullied a lot as a kid by other kids. I was targeted for harassment by one shrew boss I had, for two years.

    After that incident, I began reading books about workplace abuse (and later, books about that discussed related issues), and what I found in reading books by experts on these subjects is that it’s actually common for narcissists, jerks, bullies, etc, to be promoted, preferred, and protected – in schools, marriages, churches, where ever.

    People often say they value sweetness, humility, etc, but often, organizations do not hire or promote or protect such people who have those qualities, but they chase after and idolize the egomaniacs, rude jerks, the users, the bullies, power hungry types, etc.

    LikeLike

58. @ A Amos Love, who said,

    And Paul, in verse 11, says…
    NOT to keep company, “IF any man” that is called a brother be a…
    1 – fornicator – male prostitute, unlawful sexual intercourse.

    Oh gosh, that’s a joke among a lot of Christians today, since so many are now arguing against upholding sexual purity or virginity teachings, because (their rationale is) such teachings allegedly hurt the feelings of those who have had pre-marital sex.

    I’m a 40 something year old virgin, I was waiting for marriage to have sex, I’ve not been married yet, and I can tell you, since I tend to really notice anything having to do with these subjects, that Christian culture does not truly care about biblical teachings on sexual morality (not for anyone past the age of 25 or 30, whether they be a preacher, elder, or not), despite the fact a lot of them claim they do, or that they rant against sexual immorality on occasion.

    As a matter of fact, a lot of Christians these days try to brush biblical teachings about sexual morality aside as being unimportant, irrelevant, or insensitive.

    Also, I’ve noticed that when a famous preacher gets caught in adultery, other preachers and famous Christian names step forward to defend the guy, demand grace and mercy towards him, say we all sin so let it slide, they argue why he should not have to step down from the pulpit, etc.

    LikeLike

59. It is interesting that the clergy is on the list of top ten professions for narcissists. I’d be willing to bet that list also contains lawyers, politicians, actors/actresses, journalists, and professional athletes.

    LikeLike

60. “Also, I’ve noticed that when a famous preacher gets caught in adultery, other preachers and famous Christian names step forward to defend the guy, demand grace and mercy towards him, say we all sin so let it slide, they argue why he should not have to step down from the pulpit, etc.”

    And yet if a plebeian pew-sitter steps out of line or questions the pastor, that is considered to be a significant sin.

    LikeLike

61. Ryan, Lawyers?! Narcissists??? Tell me it ain’t so! Actually I just read an article that made the case that lawyers who are sociopaths/psychopaths tend to make the best litigators. I think there’s something to that. Something to do with being freed from the fetters of conscience. Fortunately there are degrees of narcissism, sociopathy/psychopathy, etc. At least lawyers have to stay on the right side of the line between legal and illegal conduct, if they want to keep their licenses. Not a lot to keep the mega pastors on the right side of morality where so many of their peers are so quick to make excuses for them.

    LikeLike

62. Gary, lawyers may be on that list, but I can assure you that no narcissist lawyer would be a regular reader here unless I was calling him/her out and they liked to see their name in print.

    LikeLike

63. I’m not so sure Julie Anne. All attention is good attention, you know. (End dry humor alert.)

    LikeLike

64. By the way, I have a friend who is quite high ranking in the research and academic community who has seen that sociopath/profession list before and has tried to find the data source. She says that it probably cannot withstand any peer review, but that it is interesting just for fun.

    LikeLike

65. What responsibility do you think the members have in these type of situations?

    A horrible and shocking thing
    has happened in the land:
    The prophets prophesy lies,
    the priests rule by their own authority,
    and my people love it this way. Jer 5:30-31

    LikeLike

66. Ruth,

    I think the most responsible thing a member should do when a pastor behaves like this is to vote with their feet. Walk out the door and wipe their hands clean.

    LikeLike

67. Thanks, Julie Anne. In my situation, I actually had someone come to me and say, “I’m sorry you’re hurt, but I don’t want to know what happened.” Not only did I feel abandoned (and the abuse condoned) but I wan’t them to know it wouldn’t protect them from being hurt and abused themselves.

    LikeLike

68. Ruth, I was dealing with a guy about this very thing on Facebook recently. People get very annoyed about conflict. I say, “you see this elephant in the room, I see this elephant in the room, what are we going to do about it?” People don’t know what to do with that. They would rather walk away from it or just pretend it doesn’t exist.

    I’m sure you did feel abandoned. Not only that, you could easily have started second-guessing yourself, asking yourself if it was as bad as you thought it was, or if maybe you should just stick it out a little longer. Denying the truth and avoiding the conflict just continues the crazy cycle.

    LikeLike

69. Agreed!

    Places like this are so encouraging. It is so good to know there are brothers and sisters who are not afraid to engage on the difficult issues 🙂

    Blessings.

    LikeLike

70. Indeed! Very glad to have you here, Ruth!

    LikeLike

71. “I know you and you know me, let’s just say we’ve “met” before. I can promise you in both cases our churches up here were started by honorable, godly men who just happened to fall into the snare of a man who has duped literally thousands. Just as many here and elsewhere have vouched for Dave Corning’s character and integrity and for the others who have spoken up, so I can vouch for their integrity. These are godly men. They may be blinded at the moment, but they will see.”

    I am intrigued. Are you speaking of satellites of Harvest?

    I will tell you that I have no idea what “godly men” means anymore. The facts of MacDonalds behavior (over time!) seem to speak for themselves. I guess I have been so disappointed in those I thought I knew and who I thought had great character and integrity that I am reluctant to take anyone’s word for such things anymore. What you seem to be saying is that the Holy Spirit is being ignored by godly men.

    The best thing that could happen is the pew sitters are told exactly what is going on but we both know it does not happen that way. let us hope they care enough to google their own church. :o)

    LikeLike

72. “At least lawyers have to stay on the right side of the line between legal and illegal conduct, if they want to keep their licenses. Not a lot to keep the mega pastors on the right side of morality where so many of their peers are so quick to make excuses for them.”

    Very true! And for the same reason a person is much safer working for a corporation than a mega church. The mega church is not under any labor laws and has total freedom in throwing people under the bus for no reason. Churches have a lot of latitude in how they treat people. When Paige Patterson demoted Hebrew Professor Sheri Klouda for being a woman she sued. But Patterson’s attorney made the case the seminary operated as a church. It was thrown out. Even though the place that hired her in the first place only changed Presidents. And the new president did not want a woman teaching men Hebrew.

    That is how ridiculous it can get.

    Now, I have a family member who is legal counsel for mega churches and this lawyer skirts ethics all the time but never does anything that could revoke their license to practice. Always read the fine print. They are written by such lawyers.

    I also would not trust this person with the family recipes if you get my drift.

    LikeLike

73. By the way, I have a friend who is quite high ranking in the research and academic community who has seen that sociopath/profession list before and has tried to find the data source. She says that it probably cannot withstand any peer review, but that it is interesting just for fun.”

    Ok, this one cracked me up. First of all narcissism has been removed from official diagnosis anyway. By whom? Psychologists many of whom have narcissistic tendencies.

    . And the research and academic community is rife with pomposity.

    So one cannot prove someone is a narcissist in the official sense. I loved Jack Watts’ article in Huffpo on “Self deprecating narcissists”. So true!

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jack-watts/selfdeprecating-narcissis_b_843434.html

    LikeLike

74. Lydia let’s just say we have “met” on another discernment blog. I believe some godly men do know what is going on, are troubled by it, and have been waiting for the whole mess to “sort itself out”. Well, we’re past that and hopefully they will see this.

    LikeLike

75. This is all incredible sad. I first became aware of JM via Moody radio and then from his various speaking engagements during Founder’s week that MBI holds each year. I have visited Cathedral twice, and it really wasn’t my style. However, I had no idea about these things regarding HBC or JM before reading it on this blog. (thank GOD for the internet) I can tell you that in the other Chicagoland Evangelical churches nobody is talking, or if they are talking it is hush, hush, hush. among the leadership. I know someone who left HBC-Niles about 4 months ago, but she never said why. I thought it was a little strange since she had been at the church for about 3 + years and seemed to be enjoying it. Now I KNOW why.

    For ANY church to be $65M dollars in debt is outrageous and egregious. How is JM so calm?? How is the congregation so calm?? I know the Lord says to be anxious for nothing, but this is a cause for panic! The Lord in his mercy has allowed the bottom to fall out now, less the church wind up at $100M. I am just floored. I’m sorry, but I just wouldn’t be able to continue to support that. As others have mentioned, I need to see a line item budget. But even with that, you gotta hope and pray you are dealing with folks with integrity because financial statements, budgets, etc can be fudged too. Enron anyone??

    The fallout from all of this is going to be massive. There are going to be soooo many people hurt, disillusioned, destroyed, etc. I think of all those MBI students I saw at the Cathedral campus. I think of that credit union who believed that HBC was going to be able to pay back the loan. Hopefully by some act of God it will occur, because that is one bank that is not too big to fail, and some good folks are gonna be out of a job.

    I remember reading an article on the Battered Sheeps website regarding authoritarian pastors. it spoke about the sins of the leaders, but then went on to talk about the sins of the sheep being idolatry, fear of man, and unbelief. This one passage really caught my attention when it said, “Men pleasers have little stomach for potential conflict. They would never dare ask their exalted leader a question, no matter how respectfully. They would never ask for the biblical basis for a decision made by the leadership, even when that decision seems to fly in the face of clear Scriptural teaching. Such men-pleasers crave the smile of a man’s countenance more than the smile of God and they will not speak the truth in love.”

    I know I have learned my lesson the HARD, VERY HARD way by making demi-Gods out of mere man,putting folks on pedestals, and thinking too highly of people/places/things, particularly when spiritual abuse came knocking on my door. I too craved the smile of a man’s countenance and lived for approval, until i saw in a twinkling of a eye how all that easily becomes scorn, contempt, shunning, etc. Now I view things very soberly. The only celebrity in the church is God, and he shares his glory with no-one. Whenever you exchange the truth for a lie, this is pretty much what you get.

    LikeLike

76. “People get very annoyed about conflict. I say, “you see this elephant in the room, I see this elephant in the room, what are we going to do about it?” People don’t know what to do with that. They would rather walk away from it or just pretend it doesn’t exist.”

    This statement is so true. Christians are absolutely horrible at speaking the truth in love, especially if it involves anything relating to conflict. I have never encountered so much passive and passive aggressive communication in my life. What in the world is so hard about talking? What is so strenuous about having a heartfelt, genuine, TRUTHFUL conversation? Folks will rather lie, talk sideways, manipulate, anything but address the issues.

    Ruth I honestly don’t believe most people think it would happen to them. From what I have seen it appears that they see it as maybe a once in a blue moon thing that happened to YOU, and if f you forgive and fix your eyes on Jesus, everything will be ok and eventually go back to ‘normal.’ Most of the time once a few layers have been pulled off you begin to see that ‘normal’ looks a lot like dysfunction, unhealthiness and abuse. Not every case is going to be to the extent of HBC, so it does lend to a lot of confusion and uncertainty when it does occur.

    LikeLike

77. Some time ago when checking ‘Search Key Phrases’ that got people to my website, one caught my eye: “Why are toxic leaders permitted to remain in power in a church for an unobstructed season of time?” I pondered that question and then put together a website article entitled: “Why Are Toxic Leaders Allowed to Remain in Power So Long?”

    This question has plagued a number of people who have been alerted to the issue of maltreatment of church members through spiritual abuse. The old saying: “You get what you pay for” may apply when it comes to thinking about power structures in a church. If church congregants have the expectation that it is the lead pastor or the senior pastor of the church who holds the reins of power, then his word goes.

    If it is felt that the pastor, as ‘the man of God’ has special powers beyond those of the average Christian, then those who buy into that type of belief and organizational structure will usually get exactly that type of leader.

    Basically, when it comes to the issue of: why are toxic church leaders allowed to remain so long—the simple answer would be that the church community simply allows it.

    You are welcome to check out this article on my website and see what you think. http://www.ChurchExiters.com

    LikeLike

78. Thinking Christian, I believe you are right. People do just want things to go back to normal, not realising how totally dysfunctional and abusive that is.

    The tragedy of my experience was that this was an historical, recurring pattern of behaviour within the church leadership which will just continue to play out, leaving more and more ‘family’ members battered, abused and abandoned.

    LikeLike

79. ThinkingChristian, Welcome to SSB. Your user name is quite profound on a blog like this that deals with spiritual abuse. What was I thinking when I went to that abusive church? What do we think when we go to churches that have a debt of $65 million? How can we justify that behavior in our heads?

    I think right now is going to be a very pivotal time for HBC. I hope the “empire” is getting a shaking to the core. But you really never know. MacDonald may remain. The people may remain.

    I think you are right about the inevitable fallout. The important thing is to be a support to those who get the courage to leave. They will have some grieving to do – perhaps even some form of “detoxing” depending on what was taught from the pulpit. For example, in our situation, we had to relearn about grace and God’s positive attributes since so much of what was preached was the Cross, the Wrath of God, what God hates. We missed His merciful love, His grace, His love.

    Feel free to send people here. I have a policy here that anyone at any time can “hijack” a conversation to discuss any spiritual abuse matters. This place is called Spiritual Sounding Board so people can have a voice – – because in so many churches, people lost their voices or were told they couldn’t talk. Their voices didn’t count. If this still feels too open, we now have the SSB forum in which I approve each member. It is a private forum – away from wandering eyes (pastors or their spies/stalkers – yes, I’m serious) and away from search engines. The forum is for anyone who has suffered abuse or those who would like to offer support to survivors. (contact by e-mail: spiritualsbforum@gmail.com)

    I appreciate your great sensitivity to these difficult matters and am so glad you stumbled across the blog. Feel free to stick around. ~Julie Anne

    LikeLike

80. I just got Brent Detwiler whiplash.

    And yet…there he is, never once blaming the doctrine. Does he not understand that James has either NOT been given the grace to percieve his sins; or that James has been given grace to percieve that his sins are not in fact sins. In either case, according to the reformed doctrine to which they both subscribe, Mickey D, as the senior spiritual mystic, is never in a position to be judged by an elder who functions from a lower position on the spiritual caste scale.

    Could anyone but God question Moses?

    This is precisely the model from which they operate. The senior pastor is the High Priest. The Man of God. The Chief Profit [sic].. Only he sees God’s face.

    LikeLike

81. Breaking news at Elephant’s Debt: Rod Van Solkema, former HBC pastor, issues a formal statement

    http://theelephantsdebt.com/2013/09/20/breaking-news-rod-van-solkema-former-pastor-and-son-in-law-of-dr-joseph-stowell-issues-a-formal-statement/#comments

    LikeLike

82. Lydia

    Thanks for the link to Jack Watts’ article in Huffington post, on “Self deprecating narcissists”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jack-watts/selfdeprecating-narcissis_b_843434.html

    …”Like others who have a narcissistic personality disorder, the lords of the electric church are self-centered but, unlike their secular counterparts, the leaders of the electric church are never outwardly boastful. People may be forgiving of narcissism in movie stars, beauty queens and exceptional athletes, but certainly not of Christian leaders. This is where they differ from the classic model of narcissism. Because Christ was humble, these leaders are expected to behave similarly. Outwardly, they do, especially by the message they convey to their followers. Their demeanor is always that of a humble servant, eager to follow God’s will. They have taken self-deprecating humility and made it an art form, cleverly masking their compulsive craving for attention, approbation and admiration.”

    LikeLike

83. Boy – – – -Thanks for the link, Anonymous. It’s like there is a domino reaction going on. This is great news and the note at the bottom said there’s more to come!

    LikeLike

84. “I just got Brent Detwiler whiplash.”

    I had the same thought

    LikeLike

85. “Lydia let’s just say we have “met” on another discernment blog. I believe some godly men do know what is going on, are troubled by it, and have been waiting for the whole mess to “sort itself out”. Well, we’re past that and hopefully they will see this”

    I totally admit my bias in such situations. These things did not happen overnight. They have been systemized, institutionalized and building for many years. And usually the same guys now on the outs were part of letting it get to this point. The irony is that while being a part of building this model and some of the things that have to be done to others during that time are fine until it is you.

    JMac did not start making 1.5 mill a year overnight. He did not hide his salary overnight. He did not run a parachurch ministry over night. And all the other things he is doing. Seems things were not that bad until he wanted to do what Driscoll did and make his elder board much smaller.

    What amazes me is what so many of the guys now speaking out had to overlook for a long time.’

    Don’t get me wrong, I am thrilled they are speaking out. We need whistleblowers because it is NOT James’ money. But don’t try to make martyrs out of them, please. They could have stopped the slide long ago but chose not to for whatever reason. Groupthink, etc.

    BTW: Does JMac really have a make up artist?

    LikeLike

86. Check out this new FB post by James MacDonald that came out today: https://www.facebook.com/notes/james-macdonald-walk-in-the-word/strengthened-to-share-our-journey/527129977355537

    Do you think the topic has any significance considering the timing of all the recent exposure? I mean, think about it, he has surely seen my tweets leading to this blog post because I have now been blocked. The Elephant’s Debt blog has had quite a few comments, too.

    Look at the content. Is there a reason why he is posting this message now? I think so. What is that message? It is very important to watch the behavior of church leaders when they are confronted. Their behavior reveals a lot.

    LikeLike

87. Somewhat random, off-the-topic question for Julie Anne:

    Do you ever consider using a fake Twitter account to follow those that have blocked you on your main Twitter account?

    Although I guess that wouldn’t be ethical…

    LikeLike

88. JA,

    Only had time to take a quick at the JMac FB item, but it sure looks like he is encouraging people to look up to himself as though he is on the same level as the Apostle Paul.

    LikeLike

89. RMR: I really don’t need a fake Twitter account because I can search for people who have me blocked and I can still tag them on tweets (and I do). The blocking thing really only prevents their tweets from showing up in my newsfeed.

    I have 3 other Twitter accts (one private, BGBCSurvivor and SpiritualSB). I pretty much stick with @DefendtheSheep because it’s just easier to stay there.

    It was at the suggestion of some wise support people that I got the BGBC and SpiritualSB accts. This was done to prevent someone from grabbing them for their own purposes, since I know of a pastor who used my old blog website to create his own impostor blog. I never would have thought of obtaining those accounts.

    I did use those 2 accounts during the WhoWouldJesusSue campaign, but rarely tweet from them anymore. It’s just easier to maintain one account.

    LikeLike

90. Good response, Gary. He needs to protected his beloved “position of authority.”

    LikeLike

91. Julie Anne,

    You also gotta love it when JMac says “Paul addresses Timothy as his child. It’s a term of endearment which also conveys PATERNAL AUTHORITY—I’m telling you this as my spiritual son, so LISTEN UP” (emphasis added).

    What?! Expressions of endearment denote authority to these power hungry control freaks? These people could find proof of their own authority in a bowl of Cheerios.

    LikeLike

92. FYI: I’m having a Twittering fit and tweeting Spiritual Abuse 101 warnings, tagging #Harvest25 which appears to be the designated hashtag for their 25th anniversary celebration. I’m raining a little truth on their parade.

    You can follow here: https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep

    or they might show up in my sidebar to the right.

    LikeLike

93. Thanks for the info. I don’t know much about Twitter, as I don’t use it.

    Alas, I’m not a Twit (although my wife would say otherwise…).

    LikeLike

94. Julie Anne, I’ve just read your “warning tweets”. They are awesome! Can you repost them here and can I use them?

    LikeLike

95. Ryan: You all can absolutely use anything I tweet or post. If you use something from the SSB site, I’d appreciate it if you could include a link back to the site. Thanks for asking!

    LikeLike

96. Oh, and Ryan – – Dave Corning did all the work in his letter. I just reworded his ideas into tweets.

    I have a feeling I will be referring to this letter for a long time as he covers so many aspects of spiritual abuse that we have seen all in one letter. It really is the perfect learning tool. What a shame that real people are living what he describes. Blech!

    LikeLike

97. Re authority in a bowl of cheerios. Yes, there authority is there, zero after zero after zero.

    There is no such thing as “pastoral authority” except when it has been usurped from the people in the pew.

    LikeLike

98. Their authority is there, a bunch of zeroes.

    LikeLike

99. Only had time to take a quick at the JMac FB item, but it sure looks like he is encouraging people to look up to himself as though he is on the same level as the Apostle Paul.

    I wonder if he’ll stop there, or keep leveling up until he exalts his throne above that of the Most High?

    LikeLike

100. …”Like others who have a narcissistic personality disorder, the lords of the electric church …”

     “Lords of the Electric Church” —
     does that sound like the name of a band to you?

     LikeLike

101. “zero after zero after zero”

     Yes, of course. Except they would be lining the zeros up in pairs, calling them infinity, and claiming their authority is without end. Heck. I missed my calling. With reasoning skills like this I could have qualified as a mega pastor. Wonder what I would have enjoyed more, the money, the prestige, the power and influence, the adoration, or the ability to tell God what He thinks?

     LikeLike