Tony Miano: Tweeting from the Heart

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I’m in the middle of working on an article about street evangelist Tony Miano and the recent evangelism conference sponsored by my former pastor, but just ran across this tweet and decided to post it for a quickie Sunday evening post.

Tony, Tony, Tony!!   SMH!

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Screen shot 2013-08-25 at 7.04.45 PM Screen shot 2013-08-25 at 7.05.00 PM Screen shot 2013-08-25 at 7.05.15 PM

139 comments on “Tony Miano: Tweeting from the Heart

  1. Wow, there’s that straw man thing again.

    I remember a time when strange religious folk were passing out flowers at the airports across the USA. Thank GOD that there is a law against that today. Maybe we can get Tony to wear a white robe and sandals like they did.

    Passing out tracks mean nothing, really, unless you are spreading the gospel to the trash cans. God knows that they are filthy dirty. What means more to someone is something that comes from the heart, out of the mouth, a true testimony of God, not what a publisher typed out on a folded piece of paper.

    Can you imagine if Jesus passed out tracks? Or, how about the Apostle Paul?

    Besides, I think lyn (Laurie) was onto something. Tony has an ulterior motive to woo these women to be submissive to him. He’d have a better chance at that by putting an ad on Craigslist under personals.

    Ed

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  2. He needs to speak with his wife to receive some clarity about responding to women on the Internet with sexist comments.

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  3. Wonder if he ‘ran’ it by his wife that he was handing out flowers to strange women on the street~oh my don’t get me going!!!!! His arrogance is so apparent. Doesn’t he realize Christ actually valued, loved and respected women? Oh wait, patriarchal religion doesn’t respect women, they fear women so must control them, Insert snarkiness! Good thing I don’t have a twitter account, I could really get in some trouble!

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  4. I was watching the twitter-war… can’t stand that kind of behavior. whatever happened to the “don’t let the left hand know what the right hand is doing?” And yeah, if I was a wife, I’d want to know who my man was giving flowers too… and I better have gotten flowers for Valentines Day to boot!

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  5. Thinking about how the flower recipients might have felt after this awkward encounter brought yet another lovely SGM memory to mind. I’d be curious if other former SG readers have similar bizarre memories of forced valentine’s awkwardness.

    I remember reading on SGMSurvivors about some of the strange things asked of married folks but I’m forgetting.

    As for the singles, we were expected to go to these super award group Valentine parties in which all of the guys served us. The whole point I guess was for them to be Christ like and put us first as ladies, or something… what ended up happening was overdressing and decorating as though it were a romantic date, but a whole group of people who were not romantically connected. And a bunch of well meaning guys whose idea of “serving” was the cookie cutter style taught by the higher ups. All about DOING, but no actual conversation, genuinely listening, drawing people out.

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  6. Probably after the first one of those, I should’ve detected the cultishness.

    Being the recipient of forced humility sure is bizarre. And not so subtly patronized in the process- super awesome.

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  7. Another tweet shows that Tony is now a missionary under Chuck. That means that BGBC is the church of Tony, regardless of whatever Church that Tony goes to. It also means that BGBC is financially responsible for the well being of Tony in his mission. So, I guess that internet pan handling will continue.

    Also, Chuck is going to write the forward on Tony’s new book about the role of women evangelizing. I wonder how much money that Chuck will inherit off that book.

    I wish that modern day preachers would stop writing books.

    Ed

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  8. Julie Anne,

    Here is the example of a Calvinist talking out of both sides of their mouth.

    Note:

    Your August 25 10:58 PM Post shows the question:
    “Are you saying that women cannot evangelize?”

    To which Tony proclaims it a straw man argument.

    Then Tony states the following in another tweet:
    “A Christian woman cannot open-air preach w/o sacrificing some of her femininity & her gentle & quiet spirit in the process. ”

    So much for the straw man. He just spoke out of both sides of his mouth. He states that open air preaching is more than evangelizing.

    But, it is still evangelizing nonetheless.

    According to dictionary.com, evangelizing is a verb, meaning to preach the gospel. They are one in the same, no matter where you preach the gospel, it is still evangelizing.

    Not only that, women were the first to preach the gospel, and Jesus instructed the women to GO TELL MY DISCIPLES that he is risen, while the MEN were having a pity party that they bet on the wrong man. They evangelized. They preached the gospel…to men, without giving up their femininity, or sacrificing anything.

    Calvinists have distorted the role of women from a Jesus standpoint.

    So, like I said, so much for that false accusation of a straw man.

    Ed

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  9. Ed – I’m going to tweet your words to Tony. Let’s see if I can tweet something like this: Jesus instructed the women to GO TELL MY DISCIPLES that he is risen, while the MEN were having a pity party that they bet on the wrong man. They evangelized.

    Like

  10. I know how this guy operates, he LOVES to draw you into a ‘confrontation’ with him, that way he can rip you apart and youtube, keek, tweet, blog, videotape, etc every word. He’s on a power trip and women are his target. What got me is how he HAS to let you know EVERY move he makes, everything he says, or does. WHO CARES?

    I have to speak to my husband or pastor before I can address him???!! What arrogance! Who does he think he is?! He was/is guilty of the sin of boasting and bragging, which he does repeatedly. Instead of responding like a true follower of Christ would, with love and humility, he lashes out, makes some accusation about a straw man, facts and evidence, all of which made no sense and weren’t even relevant to what I said to begin with.

    I am looking forward to your next post and how Tony says open air preaching is more than evangelizing. Where is his Scripture reference for that? There won’t be any, and if you confront him, you’ll get the ‘usual’ scripted answer. Wonder what page on the manual on street preaching you’ll find ‘straw man’? Here is a sample of the manual which Miano was director of – – – – –
    “Make yourself Heard

    Trivia Questions – Give away money or prizes.

    Placards, Flip-Chart, Magic tricks, altered photos, etc.

    Hymn singing often accompanied open-air preaching.

    Use whatever talent you may have and try any new ideas you may think of, no matter how crazy. It will keep both you and your listeners interested.

    Hecklers and Humor are your best draw;

    Nothing will draw a crowd as well as a good heckler. Loud voices or people laughing will tend to make passers-by want to know what’s going on. People will gather quickly.

    Ask a heckler if they think they are a “good person.”

    A Crowd Draws a Crowd

    Be part of the crowd and supportive to the members on your team. You are laborers; make sure you are laboring and not just fellowshipping. Check yourself regularly and keep a balance.

    Timidity
    A sure fire way to fail in your objective to draw a crowd is to be timid or half hearted in your attempt.

    Be as loud, confident, and forceful as you can while still sounding natural.” from
    http://www.livingwaters.com/AAsyllabus.pdf

    Too bad he never thought of using the BIBLE as a ‘manual’!!

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  11. Ok, Ed, I was able to shrink it down to fit 140 characters exactly. Sorry I couldn’t quote you saying, “Tony, this tweet is really from your pro-choice buddy Ed” (I know you are not, I’m just using his words in my sarc way). If you click on the little “9 hr” on the top right of the tweet I posted, you can follow the current conversation. I just clicked on it and saw your/our (lol) response.

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  12. lyn – I just want to copy your whole comment and use it as a post. Can I hire you? I don’t have any $$, but I can find monopoly money somewhere. You’re good. Wait, I can’t say that, only God is good (that’s a Way of the Master thing, did you know that?)

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  13. JA,
    “Ed – I’m going to tweet your words to Tony. Let’s see if I can tweet something like this: Jesus instructed the women to GO TELL MY DISCIPLES that he is risen, while the MEN were having a pity party that they bet on the wrong man. They evangelized.”

    It is so unfortunate that he has no clue that evangelizing is preaching. There is no difference between those two words.

    Ed

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  14. Julie Anne,

    I noticed that he agrees with your post in regards to the word “evangelize”, but he didn’t address the word preach, in which both those words are synonymous.

    Evangelize
    verb (used without object)
    3. to preach the gospel; act as an evangelist.

    We are all called to preach.

    Ed

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  15. “Do you have any of those million dollar tracts laying around? Maybe you could pay me with a couple of those…”

    Um, Lyn, how did you know? Yes, I do. haha!

    Ed: Go click on that 9h and check out the conversation. It’s going crazy. I added your definition.

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  16. @ JA~

    What does it mean that BGBC made him a “missionary?” Have they done this before? Does it mean they are financially supporting him?

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  17. Julie:

    Guys with the mindset of Tony and their are plenty of them in the Southern Baptist Convention IMO do more harm than they ever do good. They want to stop women from sharing the Gospel with others. Jesus did not stop women!

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  18. Diane: I didn’t see that tweet that Ed is referring to. (Ed, are you able to find it and link it? Or do you remember who tweeted it?) I’m blocked by both Tony and Chuck, so it’s sometimes difficult for me to see everything.

    They weren’t supporting any missionaries when we were there. This idea makes me sick. They are in bed together: Chuck O’Neal, the suing pastor is endorsing Miano’s book. That will give Chuck credibility in the street evang world. So, that is how Chuck will redeem his reputation. It’s perfect – street evangelists often go solo without accountability or oversight. It’s a perfect fit. We will see social media lovefest between the 2. All of Tony’s friends are instantly Chuck’s friends, no questions asked and if anyone challenges (like me), they will get the typical: God-hater, reviler, don’t have permission from husb/pastor, liar, REPENT responses.

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  19. @ JA~

    “Tony Miano ‏@TonyMiano 18h
    This morning Pastor @ChuckONeal_ announced from the pulpit that I am now one of @beavertonchurch’s missionaries. What an honor/privilege!

    Collapse Reply
    1Retweet
    6Favorites
    Chuck O’Neal Jason Stephens Tonya Patty Roberts Eliza Beth Michael A. Coughlin

    1:51 PM – 25 Aug 13 · Details”
    https://twitter.com/TonyMiano

    Like

  20. My last post is awaiting moderation…probably because Chuck’s name was mentioned…IDK. But it was the same tweet that Diane showed.

    Also, from my understanding, a member of a church is sent out as a missionary by that church, and is responsible for the financial well being of that missionary. This is how I understand it from a missionary friend of mine in Thailand.

    Ed

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  21. Well, there you go. Just like CJ/Mohler and their $$ entanglements, now Tony’s bread and butter is coming from BGBC. There is no reason to ever dig deeper for truth as long as you’ve got $$ coming in. This is disgusting. Chuck played it very well.

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  22. Ed – I think it was held up because it included 2 hyperlinks from the tweet. CON’s name won’t put you in moderation.

    I don’t think you’d have to be an actual church member to be supported by a church.

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  23. JA
    “I don’t think you’d have to be an actual church member to be supported by a church. ”

    While that may be true, I think it would be wise to have the congregation have a vote on the matter. But then again, Chuck has veto power.

    And, there may be internet pan handling expansions. Get out your Visa/MasterCard!! Oh, and don’t forget them Walmart Gift Cards.

    Ed

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  24. A rose and a tract. How sweet he is. He doesn’t turn so sweet, though, when his “bragging” is called out – especially by a woman. I have never really understood why certain Christians feel that it’s okay to brag about their salvation conquests. All for God’s glory!

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  25. “I don’t think you’d have to be an actual church member to be supported by a church.”

    So, he may be getting tangible support from CON, not just horn tooting on twitter?

    I wonder Miano he is getting $upport from the church he no longer attends-Granada Hills Community Church? I read he attended there several years. They even commissioned him as an evangelist in a special laying on hands ceremony in July 2011. (See youtube Affirming an Evangelist’s Call.) I wonder why he left that church? He had been attending there for several years and they even went to all the trouble of commissioning him. Wonder what happened.

    And the church he now attends (Faith Community Church – when did he start there and why?) may or may not agree with everything Miano yells- according to the disclaimer on his Cross Encounters blog. Maybe FCC $upports him and maybe not.

    Could be that Miano gets lots of tangible support from lots of places. I know his wife works, or at least did work in April of this year because he posted a picture of him going to her workplace on FB. I also read his eldest daughter works and may be starting a job as a teacher from her blog.

    Why he tweets…..we need $1000 to make “budget” for the next 2 weeks, can you help?….. seems odd to me when he has some of his wimmins supporting him and maybe some churches as well.

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  26. Good questions Diane. There always seems to be a need for more money when it comes to these folks. Those tracts can’t be that expensive – I would guess it mostly goes toward traveling expenses and a salary for him.

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  27. Anti Social @DaVentchi

    @bjornole777 @danemeryprice @MatthewJanzen hypothetically if a male nonbeliever was reading Bible & continual ask ?s, she shuldnt answer

    Bjørn Storm @bjornole777

    @DaVentchi @danemeryprice @MatthewJanzen of course she could. But that is not the same as acting as a bibleteacher on purpose..

    ********************

    So, let me get this straight…it’s ok for a woman to accidentally be a bible teacher, just not on purpose?

    Talking out of both sides of their mouth again.

    Ed

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  28. Diane said:
    “I wonder why he left that church? He had been attending there for several years and they even went to all the trouble of commissioning him. Wonder what happened.”

    I wonder myself, if he had a falling out. That may be why he is asking for financial support, via the internet. Many questions about his integrity, and where the money flows. There will be money to be had in his book that Chuck will be writing a forward to. Follow the money, I say. Spiritual corruption.

    Ed

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  29. Ed – It’s also okay for women to be sun.school teachers for children, even if they are influencing little boys, who one day grow up to become men. But, we all know that children’s classes are usually not desirable Bible classes that men want to teach.

    I only say that after having coordinated sun. school classes for almost 10 years. During that time I only had one or two men who taught children’s classes – and I made sure they were well taken care of because they loved what they did.

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  30. What a joke. He is reminded that the bible asks us NOT to boast, and he tells her to go talk to her husband for clarity. I mean he isn’t even man enough to explain himself. Something tells me he would be just as defensive if a man pointed this out as well. lol even a ‘pastor’ man!

    Poor Guy. I doubt he even realizes he is a gong.

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  31. The really cool tracts are those ones in Spanish you leave in motel rooms to evangelize the maids!

    You mean Jack Chick en espanol?

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  32. Passing out tracks mean nothing, really, unless you are spreading the gospel to the trash cans. God knows that they are filthy dirty. What means more to someone is something that comes from the heart, out of the mouth, a true testimony of God, not what a publisher typed out on a folded piece of paper. — Chapmaned24

    In my church (RCC) the invention of tracts is credited to St Alphonsus Liguori during the time he was a missionary in a region where there was a lot of Anti-Catholic sentiment. Tracts were so those who were interested could be given instruction in the Catholic faith without being seen talking to a Catholic priest, avoiding possible reprisals.

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  33. Julie Anne,
    “Thanks for feeding me treats, I mean tweets, Ed. They are especially delicious this AM.”

    This is one of the reasons that I don’t have a twitter account. That way I can see the tweets. If I had a twitter, and was logged in, then I wouldn’t be able to see the tweets from those who block me.

    Ed

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  34. One has to wonder, Mr Miano, why this is any different than offering goodies for attending church. I guess Miano is going seeker sensitive. Thinks women can be bought with flowers. Thinks tears mean she’s a believer? What a bizarre gimmick.

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  35. HUG,

    That makes sense from that perspective, especially during that part of the world and time where religious wars were going on. But here, the land of the free, the home of the Atlanta Braves, I mean Brave?

    Ed

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  36. Ed, you disappoint me this morning. I thought you were going to really enjoy my play on words (treat/tweets). I guess I’ll have to get validation elsewhere. But yea, you’re right, your butt would be blocked so fast 🙂 Ok, so you just watch from afar and keep feeding me. Sometimes my brain doesn’t work as fast as yours.

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  37. Excellent point, terriergal – seeker-sensitive flowers for salvation. Isn’t it funny, they go to abortion mills and call them murderers – so they use fear tactics there and then flowers for ladies in Seattle and it’s all emotional lovey dovey evangelism, but they go all crazy on you if you mention friendship evangelism. Wonder when the last time the 4 ladies in is life got flowers?

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  38. This behavior is so predictable. I’ll cover for you if you cover for me. Blech. No integrity in these men. Just a bunch off babble mouths saying the right stuff for the right audience of kool-aide drinkers who have been trained to not think or question for themselves. Sick, sick, sick. I’m going to need to vent to someone. Who can I call. Help!!!!

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  39. Julie Anne,
    “Ed, you disappoint me this morning. I thought you were going to really enjoy my play on words (treat/tweets).”

    Oh, I got it alright….And I did!!

    Ed

    Like

  40. I know you did. You always do. Just harassing you because you’re a real man who can take it, not the fake wussy kind that tell women to ask permission from their menfolk when under pressure.

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  41. So who is this Tony dude to give an endorsement of this Chuck dude? Tony is a nobody, and Chuck is a nobody. Outside of those two alone, plus their small band of followers, it’s like Garfield endorsing Snoopy.

    I think that those Chucky movies really are true…I’ll be your friend to the end, Tony.

    Ed

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  42. “it’s like Garfield endorsing Snoopy.

    I think that those Chucky movies really are true…I’ll be your friend to the end, Tony.”

    Stop, Ed – – it’s not very feminine of me to snort when laughing. Enough already.

    Like

  43. Tony Tweets
    “Biblical Evangelism isn’t defined by methodologies. Rather, Biblical Evangelism is defined by biblical, historical, and systematic theology.”

    My response:
    So, Biblical evangelism is defined by how he defines biblical evangelism, not by how other Christians define it, which opposes his definition. Who gave him authority to define it? Biblical and Historical shows many ways, and that there is no wrong way, just as long as it is being preached.

    Ed

    Like

  44. Ok, I am confused. Women are not to “engage Christian men we don’t know”? One would think they would be the safest men to engage in conversation. :o) Apparently not. Not a good advert for Christlikeness, eh?

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  45. JA
    “Stop, Ed – – it’s not very feminine of me to snort when laughing. Enough already. ”

    Ya, I’m loving this!! LOL.

    But really, when we step back and really look at this, this is like two 8 year old kids meeting for the first time, wanting to play with their tonka trucks. This is child hood behaviors, not adult professionals. There is something psychologically wrong here.

    Ed

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  46. Well, I am off the hook, I just questioned my husband for the “clarity” Tony says he has for me and my husband thinks he is a wacko nutcase. (his words)

    Now, for the pastor…….

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  47. Tony’s latest (5 mins ago)

    Open-air preaching and street evangelism is an extension of the church. As such, these activities of the church should be led by men.

    My response:
    Do you see that it is he that is defining it? I smell Islam, not Christianity. Next he’ll protest outside of the DMV, opposing women drivers, petition his congressman to disallow women to vote.

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  48. “So who is this Tony dude to give an endorsement of this Chuck dude? Tony is a nobody, and Chuck is a nobody. Outside of those two alone, plus their small band of followers, it’s like Garfield endorsing Snoopy.”

    Honestly, if it was not for Miano’s endless, self-promoting, backwards (remember, Mr. Miano, it’s supposed to be Christ increases, you decrease) tweeting every time he takes a breath in and out, I would have NO idea who he was. I never followed the Ray Comfort gang of which he was part because they used gimmicks in their gospel presentation (oh…shoot…would that be like friendship evangelism?). Oh…maybe that’s just another thing about which Miano has changed him mind….like women evangelizing in the open air. I say give him a couple of years and he will revert back!

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  49. Does this guy work? Or is his wife the breadwinner? I see a lot of that with these patriarchal types. All hat, no cattle.

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  50. Tony Miano ‏@TonyMiano 24m
    To encourage a woman to open-air preach is to encourage a woman to set aside her femininity for a time so she can act like a man.

    Good grief! Where does he come up with this stuff?! So, when I shared the Gospel with my male neighbor, did that make me ‘less of a woman’? I didn’t grab myself, or spit, or scratch, or any of those things while I spoke to him….honest!

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  51. “Lydia – I love that you “questioned for clarity!” Haha”

    Well Kathi, Since we have entered into Tony’s realm of “mine is bigger than yours” phallocentristic Christianity, I assumed my husband’s would trump his. So “wacko nutcase” wins.

    (wink)

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  52. Oh Kathi, If you can get your dad and granddad to declare him nuts, that triple trumps Tony’s, too. See how this patriarchal thing works?

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  53. “Good grief! Where does he come up with this stuff?! So, when I shared the Gospel with my male neighbor, did that make me ‘less of a woman’? I didn’t grab myself, or spit, or scratch, or any of those things while I spoke to him….honest!”

    Lyn, you gave him a feminized gospel message. That will never do. God checks at heaven’s entrance to see how masculine the gospel message is.

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  54. Lydia, I’m in a room at my physical therapist’s laughing my head off at your 1:04 pm comment. I’m looking like a nut case in a bad way. Speaking of nuts and all.

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  55. Let’s slay that friendship evangelism – “It’s time to end this tool of Satan which has deceived many unwitting Christians and become another man made tradition of Modern American Evangelicalism.” {from his cross encounters blog} So, isn’t giving flowers and handing a tract to somebody ‘another man made tradition’? Did I somehow miss reading how the Apostle Paul giving out free jars of olive oil with a tract pasted on every jar? Where would I find Tony’s ‘method’ in the word of God? Tony gets to ‘make the rules’ and all us wimminfoke best be quiet.

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  56. “Ok, I am confused. Women are not to “engage Christian men we don’t know”? One would think they would be the safest men to engage in conversation. :o) Apparently not. Not a good advert for Christlikeness, eh?”

    I’m cracking up at all this getting permission for women to talk to men stuff. Didn’t Jesus talk to the woman at the well? We’re they alone? Whoa!! Did Jesus ask her husband, father, significant other, or pastor permission to converse?

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  57. lol lyn…. 🙂

    @ lydissop~

    “Does this guy work?”

    We are not allowed to know that.

    “Or is his wife the breadwinner?”

    See my 8:55, 9:19 and 12:37.

    Wife possibly…worked in April. Eldest daughter supposedly starting some kind of teaching job per her FB page. Why…he may have two of his wimmins supporting him!!! Can’t beat that!

    Tony is “Mr. Mystery Guest” (trivia–who spoke that phrase in the coolest Bruce Willis movie ever?)….we will never know if he works. That is not for us to know. Please cease from sinful questioning and send him all your hard earned donations and do NOT, NOT, NOT forget to leave the memo line of your check blank….per his request.

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  58. Julie Anne,
    “I’m cracking up at all this getting permission for women to talk to men stuff. Didn’t Jesus talk to the woman at the well? We’re they alone? Whoa!! Did Jesus ask her husband, father, significant other, or pastor permission to converse?”

    Well, Jesus didn’t know which one to ask…she had five husbands!!

    Ed

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  59. Not only did Jesus talk to the woman at the well, but she talked to him. She did not first say, “Hey, wait a minute,I need to run home and check with my significant other first before I talk to you. Hold that thought– I’ll be right back.” Basically, this woman’s concern was the significant difference in their religious persuasion regarding why he would want to talk to her and was not primarily the issue of gender. 🙂

    Like

  60. I’d like to take this opportunity to promote my new book, ‘Christian Stupidity’. In case any of you are worried, be assured that my book concerns Biblical stupidity and not secular stupidity. The stupidity I wish to discuss will be pure and not in any way contaminated by worldly psychology or the media. In the first chapter, ‘Bringing stupidity into the light’, I’ll list powerful stupid responses to questions undermining authority. Number one on my list will be: Have you discussed this with your husband or pastor? So as not to be outdone by my Oregonian competition, I intend to write my own preface, and I’ll recommend my book as well. I’m so honored to be recommended by me.

    If this sounds a little mean spirited, please forgive me. I’m getting tired of this sexist nonsense that tries to silence women, sisters in our Lord, by sending them to their husbands or pastors.

    Like

  61. Bwahaha! I’m loving this conversation everyone!

    Lydia – “Tony’s realm of “mine is bigger than yours” phallocentristic Christianity” – you’ve taken it up a notch. Well done!

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  62. Agreed. Ongoing sexist nonsense in these types of church cultures!

    BTW, even when patriarchy was more a part of the secular as well as the church culture, I don’t think that the wives were asking their husbands about every cotton picking thing. The dads went to work and the moms stayed at home. Many people didn’t have a telephone. So how could they ‘ask their husbands at home’? Maybe some of them hiked out into the back 40 if the husband worked the land and asked his sweaty browed face a [ridiculous] question. I don’t think so. Were people more sensible in those days? Sure makes ya wonder??!!

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  63. I can remember reading a homeschool forum a couple of years ago where the woman posting was having trouble with a fellow homeschool group member. She said at the end of her post, thank goodness I have my husband to talk to about this. He’s more rational than I am.

    So, either I give her props for recognizing that she may “blow off the handle” a little easily and her husband can give her some calm insight. Or….I figure it’s the other way around. It saddens me to see so many women fall into a lie/trap and believe that they are incapable of making decisions without consulting the men in their lives.

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  64. BTW, even when patriarchy was more a part of the secular as well as the church culture, I don’t think that the wives were asking their husbands about every cotton picking thing. The dads went to work and the moms stayed at home.

    What happened was a division of responsibilities. The husband handled the outside world/external affairs, the wife ran the household/internal affairs. And hubby did NOT try to micromanage the wife’s sphere of influence. (You find this division of responsibilities within and without the household in a LOT of ancient and Medieval cultures.)

    In a lot of the comp/patrio movement, the husband micromanages the household’s internal affairs, too. This is control-freak behavior (“ME MAN!”), steamrolling over the above-mentioned division of responsibilities in traditional cultures.

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  65. This is from http://www.gotquestions.org/Quiverfull-Patriarchy.html……

    ‘The Patriarchy movement encompasses the beliefs of both Quiverfull and homeschoolers and emphasizes the headship of the father, or patriarch, in a family. As in any unregulated movement, there are different interpretations of their beliefs. In general, they include:

    • God has granted men authority over their families; preferably, men should be in charge in the workplace, as well.
    • Women’s sphere of influence is the home. { my emphasis -This is why they cannot evangelize}
    • Women should only work outside the home in context of her domestic responsibilities.
    • Single women may have more flexibility in their work, but, in general, are not encouraged to work as equals among men in fields which invoke authority such as industry, commerce, civil government, and the military.
    • God opens and closes the womb; therefore birth control is taking control from God.
    • Having and educating many children is the responsibility of all Christians in order to return the country to a nation that follows God.
    • God has entrusted the direct oversight of the education of children to their parents alone, not the state; fathers are to supervise every aspect of curriculum and training.
    • Girls are encouraged to center their education around their future role as wives and mothers.
    • Segregating children into age-specified activities is inappropriate; children are foolish and should not be left to the influence of others who are foolish.
    • The local church is a “family of families”; all worship and educational activities are to be multi-generational.
    • Unmarried, grown children are under rule of fathers; although a son may be released to find a vocation and “take a wife,” he should seek his father’s council.
    • Since daughters are “given in marriage” by their fathers, an obedient daughter will allow her father to guide the process of finding a husband, although both she or her father may veto the other’s choice.

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  66. Lyn, patriarch was my world. “Was” is the key word in that sentence. And my 18–yr old daughter who is presently on athletic scholarship at university in another state says, “glory, hallelujah!!”

    Like

  67. Exactly, micromanaging to the enth degree!!

    “In a lot of the comp/patrio movement, the husband micromanages the household’s internal affairs, too. This is control-freak behavior (“ME MAN!”), steamrolling over the above-mentioned division of responsibilities in traditional cultures.”

    For some poor guys, who figure this out, it is just plain exhausting! For those who don’t see a problem–it feeds their insecurities and their fuels their drive for control–to be just like the other guys, esp. their leaders! How better in their own little Kingdom of Home and Family. Such blindness. This stuff stinks and has an odor to high Heaven!

    Like

  68. “Tony Miano

    Tony Miano 4 years ago
    Yep. Having attended seminary, I know there are many different arguments for many different issues. 🙂 ”

    Well, that’s vague. Attended seminary. Sure sounds to me like…well, he wants people to think he “attended” seminary and maybe even graduated…(I don’t know, what do you all think when you read “attended seminary”…do you automatically think dropped out?) when in reality he was a seminary drop out. This comment was part of the comments under the video I mention below-

    There is a YouTube of one of his daughters reading the scriptures in the open air. It is awesome! It was 4 years ago, but his other daughter, Michelle, has done it as recently as 2012. So in the last year, something has caused Miano to take this bold change.

    Be sure to read the comments…especially Miano’s. Here are a few-

    “Sk33tey 4 years ago
    should women be doing this…..????”

    “Tony Miano 4 years ago
    Why not? There is not a single verse in Scripture that either commands or condemns the practice of women reading the Bible in public.”

    “Sk33tey 4 years ago
    In 1 Tim 4:13, Paul says to Timothy “…give attention to the public reading of scripture, to exhortation and teaching…”

    This was the duty of a leader in the Church and leadership in the Church was strictly confined to men. I know this is not a Church setting, but I am still cautious as to whether or not this is biblically condoned. Just because there is not a single verse that condemns this practice doesnt warrant that it is okay.”

    “Tony Miano 4 years ago
    Conext. You answered your own objection. She’s standing on a public street, not in the pulpit of a church.

    And with your last sentence in mind, if the Scriptures do not expressly forbid it, then who has the authority to forbid it? Where’s the authority for your position against what she is doing?

    Without a Scriptural mandate or prohibition it becomes a matter of conscience. And my conscience is clear. I will continue to encourage my daughters to proclaim the gospel in the open-air.”

    “Tony Miano 4 years ago
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Leon. Like you, I’ve studied the issue. I agree that the “church” is not limited to the four walls of a building. In fact, much of what goes on these days inside the four walls of what are called “churches” is anything but “church.

    There a godly teachers on both sides of the issue.

    I will continue to encourage women (including my daughters) to read the Word and proclaim the gospel in the open-air.”

    http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=R9ZJRm66K48

    So he studied the issue back then and now claims he has thoroughly studied the issue now. He sounds a lot more loving and charitable four years ago.

    Like

  69. So Tony has studied the issue then, and now, and comes to a completely different understanding, strange. Could someone possibly be influencing him towards the patriarchy-type religion that seems to be what he adheres to?

    I also wonder why he took down his posts on women street preaching at the same time he announced his book on this very subject was coming out. I can only speculate.

    “I will continue to encourage women (including my daughters) to read the Word and proclaim the gospel in the open-air.” Well bust my buttons!! Who would have thought such words would come out of Tony’s mouth? There is one thing he is right about in all this mess…

    “And with your last sentence in mind, if the Scriptures do not expressly forbid it, then who has the authority to forbid it? Where’s the authority for your position against what she is doing?” I would ask Tony the same thing, where is the text that expressly forbids women proclaiming God’s word to unbelievers, and by what authority does he now forbid it?

    _______________________________________________________________
    ” Tony Miano ‏@TonyMiano 21m
    The effectiveness of a gospel tract is not determined by the design of the tract. It is determined by the gospel it contains (Romans 1:16).
    MY MY MY….how he does change his mind so. Why just last year almost exactly a year ago he was handing out TRILLION dollar tracts…with daughter Michelle.
    http://www.fishingandfollowing.com/1/post/2012/08/bible-tracts-are-so-easy-to-give-away.html ” – courtesy of Diane

    Seems Tony Miano is blown by every wind of doctrine, like the waves of the sea, being tossed to and fro. How long will it be before he changes his ‘view’ again? This man is unstable in his beliefs and should not be evangelizing my dead cat, let alone sinners who are perishing.

    This is truly a gem Diane, thanks for bringing this to the attention of everyone!!

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  70. This was posted on his website on Aug. 12th:

    “I once thought to prohibit women preaching in the open-air was to argue from the silence of Scripture. Not so. After months of study, interviewing several respected pastors and Bible teachers, and engaging in conversations with apologists and theologians it has become abundantly clear to me that the Word of God is not silent about women preaching the gospel in the open-air.”

    http://www.crossencounters.us/

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  71. “I once thought to prohibit women preaching in the open-air was to argue from the silence of Scripture. Not so. After months of study, interviewing several respected pastors and Bible teachers, and engaging in conversations with apologists and theologians it has become abundantly clear to me that the Word of God is not silent about women preaching the gospel in the open-air.”

    Too bad he doesn’t use SCRIPTURE to defend his view, which is based on multiple things; 1. months of study 2. interviewing respected Pastors and Bible teachers {not all pastors and b.t. are respected by the masses} 3. engaging in conversations w/ apol. and theol….this is what brought clarity?!? hmmm. I guess if I want to see his scriptural references and his eisegesis of those references, I will have to buy the book or listen to him preach. I say ‘no thanks’ to either one. I do not want to be influenced in the wrong way by putting garbage in my mind.

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  72. Sounds like the guy is trying to tow the line, mend his ways, and get with the patriarchy plan that the big boys have outlined. Simple as that.

    Yes, Lyn, you have noted a huge gap: “Too bad he doesn’t use SCRIPTURE to defend his view, which is based on multiple things; . . .”

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  73. Diane – Maybe. Is this a prophecy?

    Interestingly enough, that entire post is about how his view is not an opinion of scripture, but it is exactly what scripture says about women preaching the gospel.

    Yet, in a couple of posts down, he describes the what kind of man may marry his daughters. #3 on the list is “…open car and building doors for women whenever given opportunity. Chivalry is not dead. (1 Peter 3:7)”

    1 Peter 3:7 says: Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

    Where does it say that a man should open car and building doors for a woman in that verse? I can read between the lines of his thinking, but the verse doesn’t specifically say that. In his most current writing about women, he is being very literal with his use of scripture. I guess that his “opinion” is alright in this case.

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  74. Miano’s texts may lead one to believe he has a double standard:

    Miano said, “bought 4 long-stem flowers & randomly gave them 2 ladies in d/t Seattle along with a gospel tract. 1 young lady cried.”

    Miano later said, “I suggest u speak 2 ur husband/pastor 2receive some clarity instead of engagin a Christian man U don’t know”

    I wonder if Miano told the lady he was proselytizing about his religious belief: Specifically, he is free to approach a woman he DIDN’T KNOW & give her a flower & tract, because of his gender alone. And that if she decides (she can’t decide, wrong word, zapped by God is what reformers believe) to become a follower of Miano’s religious belief that she is not free to approach a man she doesn’t know about anything, even in order to share Miano’s “gospel” with him, even if she believes Miano’s gospel will save the stranger’s life.

    I just realized this reformed religion, copied mainly from Calvin, has a lot of “alone” theology, even though the Bible is about being reconciled to God & each other, IMO:

    Christ alone: We never make the first move toward believing Christ is our savior, that is labeled false gospel of “works salvation”.

    Cross alone: We dwell on the cross & never move on to: Christ’s resurrection & being born again to do God’s good will.

    Sinner alone: Born a sinner, always a sinner, never a saint. Totally depraved man can’t do anything to please God, even after being born again. When was the last time you heard a Christian called a saint in reformed circles? Christians continue as deeply broken until the day they die in this religion. This religion likes their wives deeply smokin’ hot.

    Faith alone: See Christ alone for more info. This is God’s injected faith for only certain specially selected ones. There’s no such thing as a sinner having faith in God on their own. Too bad if you weren’t previously selected before you were born. Utter exclusive cult, err I mean club, nonsense.

    Gospel alone: Everything is framed or called “the gospel”. Everything is a gospel issue. Everything in the Bible is seen through the lens of the gospel. Never mind gaining practical wisdom in how to live our own lives & make good choices. Christians may die NEVER understanding the gospel, that’s why we need to preach it to ourselves daily. Christians also have very bad memories, because pastors are constantly telling Christians to never forget the gospel.

    Gender alone: If you are male & think women are inferior, this religion might be for you. Sunday school/youth group teachers? Headed toward men alone, some already are. Teaching/preaching/elder? Men alone. College? Men alone. Raising kids? Wimmin alone. Wimmins limit their interactions with males to elders/husbands/pastors. They are normally only allowed to converse with someone in higher authority over them! Although men use this rule as an excuse not to talk with a woman who are on “equal” footing with them? Miano, Brian Thornton, B4B? These guys dismiss/put women down by telling them to talk with a higher up actually imply they themselves aren’t higher up! Are they “castrating” themselves to the wimmins in this pecking order by not being able to “set these wimmin straight” on their own?

    Pastor/Elder alone: In this religion some pastors & elders will check if Gender alone is being practiced in the home. Some have divine apostolic authority, it appears.

    Church Discipline alone: Get in line, obey, pay your tithes, say yes! Meaning, for the laity alone. This does not seem to apply to elders/pastors. This does not seem to apply to molesters, blackmailers, prideful.

    If you practice this religion, you will likely end up… ALONE!

    That’s quite a few “alones”! Can anyone think of any more “alones” that this religion has?

    Like

  75. This cracked me up: “Christians also have very bad memories, because pastors are constantly telling Christians to never forget the gospel.”

    Maybe this is one of the underlying problems–bad memories–when it comes to The Real Gospel Message?!!

    Like

  76. Oops. Forgot the other “solas”. Reformers use the word “sola” in place of alone. Reformers officially have 5 “Solas”: Faith alone, Scripture alone, Christ alone, grace alone, God alone. I decided to make a list of all the “alones” & it seems like a whole lot more than 5!

    Scripture alone: Basically, their interpretation of scripture is the only accurate one. This is called scripture alone. It ties into Christ alone by seeing Christ on the cross in every verse. Interpret a handful of Bible verses to create a religion, to the neglect of what the whole Bible teaches.

    Grace alone: Is tied to “substitutionary atonement”. That means that Christ lived a perfect life so we don’t have to. Grace destroys obeying God in this religion. Let grace & sin abound? NO! Yes, Christ lived a perfect life SO he could be the perfect sacrifice for our sins, once & for all. Anyone who reads the Bible for themselves, not just verses here & there, will see God consistently tells us from the beginning to obey him & to avoid what’s bad for us & others: SIN. Also, if you’ve received grace it was because God chose you (elect/predestination), not because you decided to obey & follow Jesus. They explain this as you are dead & can’t be regenerated (saved) by making a choice yourself. It is a club where you are chosen. You are not allowed to chose the “Christ alone” club for yourself.

    God’s glory alone: God gets glory from death & destruction in this religion. God gets glory in evil & suffering alone. God allows, decrees, ordains it. Evil is supposed to happen. They frame this by saying God makes all things work together for our good, but they are really saying God glories in the evil itself. This is also called a mystery & paradox. And, if the other alones don’t make sense, just give up & call them a mystery & paradox. Reason & rationale are not allowed. God made a mistake when he gave humans the ability to reason, which BTW sets us apart from animals. AND you will see people behaving like animals & getting away with it in some of these circles. This is just horrible, because God IS love & it maligns his character. Love is the very essence of God’s nature & who God is. One thing I know: God HATES evil.
    When the ability to reason is considered bad & not fostered in humans, you will see the innocents in the group destroyed & Darwin’s survival of the fittest, a fight for the top, played out. Where awful acts of evil take place: Holocaust, slavery, race inequality, witch trials, denigration of women, disregard for life, etc. This is the opposite of a civilized society. This is not God’s kingdom coming on earth.

    Infant (paedo) baptism alone: Although all reformed believe babies are sinful in the womb, reformed are divided on the solution to their problem. Many Presbyterians carry forward Calvin’s belief in water baptism (a work or their parent’s faith) saves babies. Reformed baptists, like Al Mohler, preach babies get automatic grace from God. He must have found a Bible verses that says grace WITHOUT faith for regeneration (salvation) of babies?!? I say babies aren’t sinful, don’t understand or have knowledge of sin, so grace isn’t needed. You can only hold someone accountable if they know. Even our justice system understands this & treats kids differently than adults.

    Feel free to add more “solas” or add to the definitions of the ones already listed. 🙂

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  77. Barb O said, This cracked me up: “Christians also have very bad memories, because pastors are constantly telling Christians to never forget the gospel.”
    Maybe this is one of the underlying problems–bad memories–when it comes to The Real Gospel Message?!!

    Right! I have bad memories of “their gospel” I wish I could forget!

    Like

  78. Grace alone: Is tied to “substitutionary atonement”.

    Make that PENAL Substitutionary Atonement — a dogma ex cathedra that only a lawyer could have come up with.

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  79. “Reformed baptists, like Al Mohler, preach babies get automatic grace from God. He must have found a Bible verses that says grace WITHOUT faith for regeneration (salvation) of babies?!?”

    Yep. You see so many contradictions. For example, Mohler believes we are born guilty for Adam’s sin. So these babies are GUILTY for what Adam did. How does one get around that? From Augustine on they baptized them….just in case they died and poof, that did it. With Mohler, perhaps he rationalizes that since God predetermined they were going to die in infancy, He automatically elects them. After all, God is controlling every molecule.

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  80. Lydia,

    Yes, Calvin admired St. Augustine of the Catholic faith. Calvin refers directly to St. Augustine when he praises infant (paedo) baptism in his monstrously lengthy body of writings, referred to as Calvin’s Institutes. Calvin also writes that Jews were saved by circumcision & non-Jews by infant baptism. He believed in works salvation or indirect salvation for babies through the parent’s faith! At least we have “out of the horse’s mouth” quotes, right?

    I used to tune out when names of dead guys & history were talked about. Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Plato. Who cares? Well, we need to get to know who they were. We need to understand who, what, why of the past… so we don’t repeat the horrors of the past. And there are plenty of horrors throughout history & throughout “Christian” history. Church has been used for control of few over many throughout the beginning of the world. True Christianity is about individuals with direct connection to God, through Jesus & through NO ONE else.

    Americans, myself included, don’t fully appreciate what we have & are naive. We enjoy much of what the rest of the world does not have: freedom of speech, leisure, education, freedom of religion, peace (not war) on our own soil. I think we take it for granted. We need to be serious about these freedoms & actively protect them fiercely.

    It’s bad enough when a preacher chooses to sue someone for their money to make them & their family pay for WORDS, what they said & believed. Can you imagine if our government approved & enforced it? Right back to Calvin’s day and ZERO freedom of speech. There clearly needs to be separation of church & state. That’s the only thing (along with freedom of speech) that kept CON from financially destroying JA. And CON is a man of God? I pray people supporting him will wake up. What happened to JA is a wake up call about certain pastors, elders, churches. Jesus did not make anyone do anything.

    CON’s lawsuit was a turning point for me in many ways.

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  81. Gary W,

    Paul alone! Good one. I’m just getting up to speed on this one. Paul’s words seem to trump Jesus’ words every time. The “gospel” of Paul. These churches preach on Romans for years. Or other parts of the Bible, but saturated with Paul & Romans verses.

    What about the 4 Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John? Jesus’ own words?

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  82. “Calvin also writes that Jews were saved by circumcision & non-Jews by infant baptism.”

    Wow, too bad for the Jewish women, huh?
    (wink)

    Like

  83. I used to tune out when names of dead guys & history were talked about. Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Plato. Who cares? Well, we need to get to know who they were. We need to understand who, what, why of the past… so we don’t repeat the horrors of the past. And there are plenty of horrors throughout history & throughout “Christian” history. Church has been used for control of few over many throughout the beginning of the world. True Christianity is about individuals with direct connection to God, through Jesus & through NO ONE else.”

    You will only get a hearty AMEN from me on this one. It has been a real wake up call for me to read the history of those times. You cannot separate the political from the religious which is a HUGE clue there are doctrinal problems inherent which is evidenced by the behavior. Where were the real Christians? Well, they were nobodies, persecuted and we will meet them one day.

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  84. A Mom – The 5 Solas were (and are) in opposition to a Catholic Church that added works, indulgences, and so-called “merits of the Saints” to the requirements for salvation, added priests and Mary to Jesus as mediators between man and God, and gave Catholic tradition equal authority to Scripture. What’s wrong with that? As far as God’s glory is concerned, there is Rom 9:13-23, which concerns both individuals and nations.

    “That means that Christ lived a perfect life so we don’t have to.” Is that a *little* thing? I say, “Thank God!”

    “Grace destroys obeying God in this religion.” Maybe according to Mahaney and his enablers (but you still have to obey *them*), but not according to Calvin, who believed that sanctification is the process of being obedient and becoming more like Jesus.

    Concerning paedobaptism, I agree with you.

    It’s interesting: People are always saying that Calvinism is too intellectual and logical and leaves no room for mystery. But you say, concerning it: “Reason & rationale are not allowed.” And that it allows too much “mystery & paradox.” It just can’t win.

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  85. Good job Diane, let’s use the resources we find to expose the false teachings and hypocrisy of others, and not just opinions.

    I am concerned about where some of the comments are going, like this one – “Calvin also writes that Jews were saved by circumcision & non-Jews by infant baptism.”

    Wow, too bad for the Jewish women, huh?
    (wink)

    Is it necessary and honoring God to insinuate something sexual?

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  86. Hi unworthy1 – lyn, I’m responding to your comment, “I am concerned about where some of the comments are going, like this one – “Calvin also writes that Jews were saved by circumcision & non-Jews by infant baptism.”

    I did some research for a question Ric asked me about Calvin & what he taught on infant baptism on JA’s 8/1/13 post. If you read Calvin’s Institutes (his massive body of writings on the Christian religion), in Book 2, Chapter 1 Calvin praises Augustine’s efforts that babies are corrupt from the womb. In Book 4, Chapter 16 Calvin explains salvation in infant (paedo) baptism as a spiritual mystery, states that the argument against paedobaptism is specious (I looked specious up, it means wrong), and explains for several pages that baptism saves Christian babies like circumcision saved the Jewish babies. I recommend reading Calvin’s Institutes for yourself when you can. John Immel has a link to Calvin’s Institutes which you can read online for free on his website: spiritualtyranny.com

    So, from the horse’s mouth:Book 2nd, chapter 1: “The orthodoxy, therefore, and more especially Augustine, laboured to show, that we are not corrupted by acquired wickedness, but bring an innate corruption from the very womb”
    Book 4, chapter 16 “The argument by which pædobaptism is assailed is, no doubt, specious—viz. that it is not founded on the institution of God, but was introduced merely by human presumption and depraved curiosity, and afterwards, by a foolish facility, rashly received in practice… In the first place, then, it is a well-known doctrine, and one as to which all the pious are agreed… Every one must now see that pædobaptism, which receives such strong support from Scripture, is by no means of human invention… that carnal infancy, which was ingrafted into the fellowship of the covenant by circumcision, typified the spiritual children of the new covenant, who are regenerated by the word of God to immortal life. But when, as the apostle elsewhere write, the wall of partition which separated the Gentiles from the Jews was broken down, to them, also, access was given to the kingdom of God, and he became their father, and that without the sign of circumcision, its place being supplied by baptism. let us fix on the very complete resemblance between baptism and circumcision… No sound man, I presume, can now doubt how rashly the Church is disturbed by those who excite quarrels and disturbances because of pædobaptism.”

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  87. Hi unworthy 1 – Lyn, I wanted to respond to the rest of your comment, if that’s okay.

    Lydia said, “Wow, too bad for the Jewish women, huh?
    (wink)”

    You said, “Is it necessary and honoring God to insinuate something sexual?”

    Lyn, I don’t think Lydia was making a sexual inference. I think her comment was another way of saying that Calvin’s belief that circumcision saved boys who died in infancy wasn’t fair to baby girls who weren’t circumcised & died in infancy.

    I think Lydia makes a good point. Calvin’s belief about salvation thru circumcision is one more way females are treated as inferior: leaving baby girls (females) with no means of “salvation”.

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  88. Jeff Brown said, “It’s interesting: People are always saying that Calvinism is too intellectual and logical and leaves no room for mystery. But you say, concerning it: “Reason & rationale are not allowed.” And that it allows too much “mystery & paradox.” It just can’t win.”

    I DON’T think Calvinism is intellectual OR logical. I DO think people who have higher learning (college+) are attracted to it’s system. It is like an elitist club where you don’t choose God, God picks you. IMO, degrees don’t equal wisdom or knowledge of God’s truth. I am not putting education down. I say that within a degreed, learned household. You have no idea how highly I value education. The truth is I know minimally educated people with far better wisdom & sense than most college grads!

    A religious doctrine based on an elitist club mentality is not rational, IMO. You start to see wackos coming out of the woodwork sooner or later. And rude ones at that.

    As for mystery & paradox, those words are used by Calvinists themselves to explain the unexplainable doctrine. Jesus didn’t spend his time going over the fine details of Jewish doctrine with the rabbis. The Bible refers mostly to the times Jesus ministered to the minimally educated people. His own disciples were these! The truth is, simple-minded children can know & love Jesus & obediently follow Him! Praise God! 🙂

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  89. It may be, but we cannot answer for another.
    She also commented earlier in the thread –
    lydiasellerofpurple
    AUGUST 26, 2013 @ 1:04 PM
    “Lydia – I love that you “questioned for clarity!” Haha”

    Well Kathi, Since we have entered into Tony’s realm of “mine is bigger than yours” phallocentristic Christianity, I assumed my husband’s would trump his. So “wacko nutcase” wins.

    (wink)

    This too seems to have some sort of hidden sexual innuendo. I just think we need to keep at the forefront our desire to honor God. Second of all, it wouldn’t be wise to give unnecessary ammunition for Miano and his friends to use.

    As for Calvin, why is this about a dead guy? The doctrines of grace did not originate with Calvin; anyway, I thought Tony Miano’s teachings were in question here, not John Calvin. And no, I do not follow John Calvin!

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  90. Jeff Brown said, A Mom – The 5 Solas were (and are) in opposition to a Catholic Church that added works, indulgences, and so-called “merits of the Saints” to the requirements for salvation, added priests and Mary to Jesus as mediators between man and God, and gave Catholic tradition equal authority to Scripture. What’s wrong with that? As far as God’s glory is concerned, there is Rom 9:13-23, which concerns both individuals and nations.
    “That means that Christ lived a perfect life so we don’t have to.” Is that a *little* thing? I say, “Thank God!”

    Jeff, Nothing’s wrong with that. Except I don’t think it’s any better!
    It seems pastors/elders/husbands replaced priests/Mary as mediators. 9Marks believes they have apostolic authority & Reformed churches hold the “keys” to salvation, from what I understand. That’s no different, IMO. We’ll maybe it’s worse.

    Do you say, “Thank God!” because you believe Christ lived a perfect life so you can do wrong, continue sinning? That you won’t do one good thing you will ever recall as a reformed believer? I certainly hope not. But that’s part of the faith alone/Christ alone imputed righteousness doctrine. I mistakenly called it substitutionary atonement earlier.

    As for Rom 9, it refers to Gen 25:21-23. God is speaking about two nations. This may be helpful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msu-dtnge5M

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  91. Lyn said, “The doctrines of grace did not originate with Calvin; anyway, I thought Tony Miano’s teachings were in question here, not John Calvin. And no, I do not follow John Calvin!”

    Yes, Miano’s teachings should be questioned. Much of what Miano teaches & believes can be found in Calvin’s Institutes, Calvin’s massive body of writings on the Christian faith. If you have time, read some of it. Calvin praises Saint Augustine of the Catholic faith for the idea that babies are sinful in the womb. I read just the small portion on infant baptism, even that was huge, and it was quite bizarre.

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  92. Regarding the concept/slogan/battle cry of faith alone:

    You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24, ESV)

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  93. Gary W,
    Yes, what do they do with the book of James! It’s one of my favs. Thanks for bring it up! 😉

    Luther hated the book of James, wanted it removed I believe. Talk about taking it to the other extreme. Just goes to show his doctrine was first and not the Bible.

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  94. A Mom, Gary W. –

    When was the last time you heard someone preach from, or even refer to the book of James? This book seems to be avoided like the plague.

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  95. Bridget, You’re so right!

    And I just thought of another one:

    Words alone: Don’t judge actions. They have no control over what they do. It’s all God. You can preach one thing & do another. There is no personal responsibility. That’s works salvation. See how words alone work?

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  96. I do believe Tony is a false teacher, his words and actions prove so. His treatment of the lost proves so. His insults, belittling, name calling, provoking them to anger proves so. However, I now wish my tweets would not have been made into a blog post. I have no desire to continue in some battle between the O’Neal/ Miano fiasco and those who oppose it. Our thrice holy God must be enraged as professing Christians verbally abuse each other. I regret and repent of my words and involvement in this circus.

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  97. Lyn, I’m on the road right now and traveling home and just saw your comment. Can you contact me at spiritualsb@ gmail.com

    I would like to propose something to you.

    Thanks! JA

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  98. “The 5 Solas were (and are) in opposition to a Catholic Church that added works, indulgences, and so-called “merits of the Saints” to the requirements for salvation, added priests and Mary to Jesus as mediators between man and God, and gave Catholic tradition equal authority to Scripture. What’s wrong with that? As far as God’s glory is concerned, there is Rom 9:13-23, which concerns both individuals and nations.”

    The reason it is called “Reformed” is because they wanted to “Reform” the Catholic church. They were more concerned with corruption that came out of the bad doctrine. It was political. The entire Reformation was political. And we know this why? Because of the Radical Reformers. You can read about the nameless many times anonymous saints who have “gone before us” in Martyrs Mirror. Get your Kleenex out first, though.

    Every counter movement tends to over correct itself. The Reformers kept the political corruption and tweaked it into doctrine. They put a human (preacher) at center stage rather than the sacraments. That has not turned out so well now has it? So basically it turned into the preacher/elders becoming the mediator between God and man. Not so sure Mary is worse. Although it is pretty bad.

    “That means that Christ lived a perfect life so we don’t have to.” Is that a *little* thing? I say, “Thank God!”

    Which always makes me want to hide my wallet or lock up the children. Yeah! I don’t have to strive for Holiness!!! You cannot be “perfect” but you should be seeking Holiness and ones wonders why Jesus said this:

    48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Perhaps the context is a clue?

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  99. A Mom – “As for mystery & paradox, those words are used by Calvinists themselves to explain the unexplainable doctrine.”

    No, they are used by real Calvinists, like Michael Horton, when something *cannot* be explained. Scripture teaches human free will and God’s sovereignty. We can speculate on how they co-exist, but we don’t really know. Only phony Calvinists think they can explain everything.

    “It seems pastors/elders/husbands replaced priests/Mary as mediators. 9Marks believes they have apostolic authority & Reformed churches hold the “keys” to salvation, from what I understand. That’s no different, IMO. We’ll maybe it’s worse.”

    I don’t consider 9Marks to be true Calvinists. Calvin wrote that apostles “[have] no place” in “duly constituted churches,” and that God “now and again revives them as the need of the times demands.” (Institutes 4.3.4)

    Concerning “keys,” I’ll have to research it.

    “Do you say, “Thank God!” because you believe Christ lived a perfect life so you can do wrong, continue sinning? That you won’t do one good thing you will ever recall as a reformed believer? I certainly hope not. But that’s part of the faith alone/Christ alone imputed righteousness doctrine.”

    No, I thank God that we are not under the Law, which must be obeyed perfectly. Mahaney & Co. believe that there is no difference between believers and non-believers, not I nor Calvin.

    BTW, the Bible (and Calvin) teaches imputed righteousness, but not that it rules out sanctification. That’s another M & C “doctrine.”

    “As for Rom 9, it refers to Gen 25:21-23. God is speaking about two nations.”

    I think it’s a paradigm for sovereign election in general. Rom 9 deals with two nations and with individuals.

    The remnant consists of individuals drawn from the Nation of Israel.

    Vs. 16 refers to “the man who wills” and “the man who runs.”

    Vs. 15 refers to Ex. 33:19, which is about God showing His grace and compassion to an individual, Moses.

    But, yes, Jews and Gentiles are also dealt with in the passage.

    I’ll take a look at the video later.

    Gary W – “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24, ESV)”

    This is the answer to James 2:14: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?”

    The implicit answer is no, because that is a *dead* faith (cf. 17, 26). A live, true faith always results in good works (cf. 22). Good works are evidence of faith, but faith alone saves.

    Like

  100. Jeff Brown,

    You had said:
    ‘”A Mom – “As for mystery & paradox, those words are used by Calvinists themselves to explain the unexplainable doctrine.”

    “No, they are used by real Calvinists, like Michael Horton, when something *cannot* be explained. Scripture teaches human free will and God’s sovereignty. We can speculate on how they co-exist, but we don’t really know. Only phony Calvinists think they can explain everything.”‘

    My response:
    No, they are used by ANYONE who has no clue in and of themselves. We can speculate how they co-exist, because it is easily discerned. Only Calvinists, real or fake, think that they can chalk it up to mystery. It’s another way to show “I DON’T KNOW”. It’s not a mystery for those who DO know.

    God WANTS US to DIG for treasure. It’s called to spiritually discern things, so that it is no longer a mystery. Just saying that it’s a mystery means that you haven’t found the treasure yet, and you just have given up.

    I think that concluding that it’s a mystery, shows that people just give up digging.

    Ed

    Like

  101. “they will get the typical: God-hater, reviler, don’t have permission from husb/pastor, liar, REPENT responses.”

    I’m over 40, a woman, have never been married, and no longer attend church (so I don’t have a preacher).

    So… I guess this guy would say I can’t approach him on Twitter or anywhere else to talk to him?

    I don’t remember the Bible saying that an unmarried woman has to get any man’s permission to talk to another man.

    Like

  102. Someone said, “Regarding the concept/slogan/battle cry of faith alone:

    You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24, ESV)”

    You’re saved by faith alone but other people can see that you’re saved by your external actions (your works). That verse is not contradicting “salvation is by faith alone.” See the book of Galatians.

    Like

  103. “I don’t consider 9Marks to be true Calvinists. Calvin wrote that apostles “[have] no place” in “duly constituted churches,” and that God “now and again revives them as the need of the times demands.” (Institutes 4.3.4) ”

    Jeff, The problem is what Calvin wrote and how Calvin “practiced” his beliefs are sometimes different and yet sometimes very clever. (gotta watch those definitions of words./concepts). Note how he gives himself a bit of room in your quote above.

    There are many contradictions in the Institutes. Not a good idea to proof text Calvin. :o)

    When we look closely, groups like 9 Marks and the YRR movement are more like Calvin than the Frozen Chosen types except for the sacraments but even that is changing somewhat when it comes to infant baptism. That is the resurgence part. (History sees this ebb and flow in more pure forms of Calvinism).

    (The SBC just hired Barnabas Piper to be the “Media Content Strategist” at Lifeway. Barnabas left the Baptist church over baptism and joined the Presbyterians. Do you know why Baptists are called Baptists? Because of believers Baptism. It is a HUGE tenant of their beliefs and they remember their ancestors who were drowned (by Reformers!!!) for daring to practice believers Baptism. That is how far the slide has gone. So the SBC has someone vetting media content who believes in infant baptism. The thought it mind blowing. Now, my guess is Barnabas will have a miracle conversion back to believers baptism because of the 6 figure income at his age )

    These guys are closer to Calvin thought and practice since the Puritans. The good thing is that Puritan church discipline is illegal now. In Calvin’s Geneva the “church” (which is another way to say Calvin) decided who was saved and who wasn’t. (Keys to the Kingdom)

    Which is interesting since everyone was forced to attend church in Geneva or get a visit from the ecclesiastical magistrate. How did Calvin know who the real elect were if attendance was mandatory?

    Like

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