* * *
At the T4G website, a note was posted that C.J. Mahaney will not be speaking at the 2014 Together for the Gospel conference. The conference is in Mahaney’s hometown of Louisville and speakers include Ligon Duncan, Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, David Platt, John Piper, Kevin DeYoung, Thabiti Anyabwile, and Matt Chandler. Check out the speaker page where you can see a small note in red:
When you click on the red link, you come to a page with a note written by C.J. Mahaney. Here is a portion of that note:
Seriously. It’s about time!
Related articles
- Mark Dever and CJ Mahaney Lovefest Continues: Shocking on So Many Levels (spiritualsoundingboard.com)
- Mohler, Dever, and Duncan break their silence and release statement in support of C.J. Mahaney (spiritualsoundingboard.com)
- Statement from T4G: Mohler, Dever, Duncan in Support of C.J. Mahaney Was Altered! (spiritualsoundingboard.com)
- Sovereign Grace Ministries Lawsuit Whirlwind Recap (spiritualsoundingboard.com)
- C.J. Mahaney supporters struggle to find a sympathetic following (peterlumpkins.typepad.com)
- Here’s What’s at Stake: C.J. Mahaney (spiritualsoundingboard.com)
- Mohler, other Calvinist leaders back Mahaney (blogs.courier-journal.com)
- T4G and Integrity: Mahaney Is Gone and So Is the Infamous Statement (The Wartburg Watch)
- CJ Mahaney Drops Out of 2014 Together for the Gospel Conference Due to Sovereign Grace Lawsuit – The Christian Post
- C. J. Mahaney withdraws from Together for the Gospel & Founders Remove Statement of Support, 7/3/2013 by Brent Detwiler
Spiritual Sounding Board 
interesting. .
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Very interesting, indeed.
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Alhtough some might think he didn’t go ‘far enough’, I think it was a good and proper decision for the reasons given.
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As usual, all CJ is concerned about is his buddies and the conference. “I love these men and this conference.” “My participation could create a hindrance to this conference and its distinct purpose of serving so many pastors.” It’s always and only about the leaders.
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I wonder why CJ cares so much about these friends to step aside? What about the ENTIRE church family he left behind? Not to mention all the friends he had in Maryland for over 20 years that he just up and left. I think it is good he is not speaking, but something is missing here, this doesn’t sound like cj.
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so you think CJ’s withdrawal may speak to the power of social media. . (?)
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It seems that CJ has done exactly what everyone here wanted him to do in reference to his speaking engagements. So I don’t understand Marge’s comment.
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Marge you have a point. When the bible asks that a preacher, church leader, or what have you as far as titles go – step away or down? Its due to a personal nature within their own life, and that they have time to work on that.
Its not about being a hindrance for their friends, and for the image sake of some conference. If it were just the ‘world’ criticizing his participation in this conference? He would go ahead and do it. He is stepping away for the good of the conference, because of the heat and wrong types of attention the conference would get within their ‘christian’ world.
His intent – or motivation for this move is NOT in the right place. Don’t get me wrong he should step away from this conference, but for very different reasons. It should have happened long before now, and they are just bowing to pressure.
He should be concentrating on the reasons WHY the pressure is there, and quite frankly his ‘friends’ need to get a clue as well. It should be about dealing with the ‘alleged’ issues, and doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord. It shouldn’t be about how his presence would be a distraction, or hindrance to his friends.
Correct action in this case, Wrong motivation for doing so.
Another chapter in the world of ‘Adventures of missing the point’!
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I think I understand Marge’s comment:
When will it be about the victims????
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AND… Will it ever be about the victims????
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It seems that it is impossible to satisfy some. The guy steps down from the speaking engagements as everyone wanted and there are still complaints………incredible! I know this is only one area but shouldn’t there be a measure of satisfaction with steps taken in the right direction without questioning everyone’s motivation like the guys at SGM are accused of doing to others?
I confess this does not solve the cover up issue but it does solve the continued speaking engagements issue in this instance.
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I think it is a good thing for them to bow to pressure or all the pressure being put on them by groups like this would be wasted. Let’s celebrate an achievement with grace.
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sparrow said: “I wonder why CJ cares so much about these friends to step aside? What about the ENTIRE church family he left behind? Not to mention all the friends he had in Maryland for over 20 years that he just up and left. I think it is good he is not speaking, but something is missing here, this doesn’t sound like cj.”
Actually, I think it does sound like CJ. Perhaps he is realizing that his name is now tainting his celebrity pastor friends. CJ’s actions show that he’s never really cared about his former church CLC. He moved headquarters to Louisville without the approval of SGM pastors. He left CLC during his leave of absence and went to Dever’s church rather than remaining at his own church as he would have expected pastors to do. It still seems to be all about him and his friends and not the little guys.
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Wesley Roy,
He is stepping down, yes, great, fantastic news, etc., etc., etc., but he is stepping down for the WRONG REASON, rather than the RIGHT REASON. How is it that you don’t understand that THIS is what Marge is talking about?
Compassion for his colleagues is the wrong reason.
Compassion for the victims is the right reason.
Ed
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“The last temptation is the greatest treason: to do the right deed for the wrong reason.” – T. S. Eliot
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I’m with Wesley, some of you should be ashamed. You do get an award for consistency tho……I saw this coming.
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B4B: Please refrain from saying things like this: “some of you should be ashamed.”
I’m sure you can figure out kinder ways of communicating.
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monax said:
I think the social media pushback is certainly having an influence.
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When a leader has to be pressured to do the right thing, it’s already for the wrong reasons, but the right move, never-the-less.
When a man still can’t see the reality of the tragedy the victims have been through and his heart doesn’t break resulting in his humbling himself and doing anything and everything he can to help the victims, it is then that we see he is blind. Whether it’s willfully or ignorantly, I don’t know, but it’s still blindness that should inform “followers” not to follow any longer.
It doesn’t matter if he can articulate the gospel with words, or that he has experience in leading; his actions and attitude disqualify him for further service. His blindness makes him a liability, at a minimum.
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Katie said: “When a leader has to be pressured to do the right thing, it’s already for the wrong reasons, but the right move, never-the-less.”
BINGO!!!!
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B4B,
Your comment doesn’t surprise me. Sounds like you are in favor of appeasement. CJ’s HEART is in the wrong place, and you think that we should be ashamed? You, Wesley, and CJ have got some serious pondering to do about the MOTIVES of CJ. His motives are out of place. He thinks that if he stays on, that he will be a distraction. He should step down because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO, not because he is concerned about how it will effect his colleagues. His mind is warped.
Ed
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I’m with Wesley on this one. If I had been yelling for CJ to step down but complained when he did, I probbaly should be ashamed of myself. But that’s just me.
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FYI, I’m on a plane now and will be traveling most of the day. If you try posting and your comment ends up in moderation, try changing the spelling for Born4Battle. I’ll clean up any duplicate comments when I can. No worries.
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This reminds me of the story of the child who refused to sit down till his parents creatively made him. The child said, “I may be sitting down on the outside, but I’m standing up on the inside.”
CJ Mahaney may not be speaking at the conference on the outside, but he still is on the inside.
Outward obedience is good to a point:
1. It’s better than not doing it.
2. It can be a teaching tool if received/understood later.
3. Actions are sometimes followed by heart change.
4. It can protect/help others, even w/o a heart change.
Heart attitudes are apparently very important to Jesus. (If we hate in our hearts we commit murder.)
We all desire for CJ Mahaney to grasp how his alleged actions/inactions have damaged, destroyed, and created an unnecessary tragedy for many people. We want him to truly understand it, repent of it, and show his repentance with actions and attitude. We grieve that a leader appears to be so blind, so self/position/power/money focused. We won’t be fully satisfied till we see a radical transformation through repentance and a life that backs it up. This should be obvious to following this story.
Since he’s not responded well to the years of pressure applied to him, and only now is forced to not speak at a conference, then I’m not holding out hope for change. Now, I’m somewhat satisfied with the fact that he’s being forced to begin stepping down. With each forced move to remove him from leadership, spiritual shepherding of any sort, and any position of influence, I will be even more satisfied.
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B4B. I don’t at all feel ashamed of myself. Anyone who fails to even give a hint of care or concern for sex abuse victims by their actions speaks volumes for me.
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Have a good trip, JulieAnne!
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Chap, Marg, Katie, etc. I lack the ability to see what a person’s motivation for doing right is. I cannot see CJ’s heart nor do I know CJ personally to be able to attempt to ascertain that information. I am also pretty sure no other human being can know what CJ or anyone else’s motivation to do anything is.
I am simply saying this is an opportunity to celebrate the effectiveness of your efforts and instead of graciously doing that another shot is fired at CJ. I do not deny that any shots fired at him appear to be a result of his actions but I remember someone once saying, “Don’t be overcome of evil but overcome evil with good”. So congratulate CJ on making the right decision about this speaking engagement and hold his feet to the fire about covering up sexual abuse of children on his watch.
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Chapmaned24 said,
“He should step down because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO, not because he is concerned about how it will effect his colleagues. His mind is warped.”
I agree he should step down because it’s the right thing to do for the victims.
I also think it’s right to step down because of the effect it will have on his colleagues. I just think the colleague motive is the lowest of the reasons; and it shows CJ’s missing the point if this motive is not found in the greater context of what’s right for the victims.
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Uh…. are we really able to read the man’s mind as clearly as some of our postings here suggest? And, are his motives in this matter as important as his behavior? If so, how would we go about assessing and naming his motives, having only a letter that he wrote to zillions of people online, and (I would assume), not having had the opportunity of a personal conversation with CJ? I’m going to take a few moments to pray for all who are involved, that they will find reconciliation and peace and vindication in the context of a renewed and intimate relationship with Christ and the proper workings of the court systems involved here, and at the same time simply thank God for answering prayer! Seems pretty clear to me that He is really doing something big here–I’m hoping that He’s also doing wonderful things in the lives of victims and abusers alike.
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Katie said:
“We all desire for CJ Mahaney to grasp how his alleged actions/inactions have damaged, destroyed, and created an unnecessary tragedy for many people. We want him to truly understand it, repent of it, and show his repentance with actions and attitude. We grieve that a leader appears to be so blind, so self/position/power/money focused. We won’t be fully satisfied till we see a radical transformation through repentance and a life that backs it up. This should be obvious to following this story.”
_____________
I am in complete agreement with you Katie. However, this is a work of the Holy Spirit and I cannot tell the extent to which this is happening or not happening. I know that the Holy Spirit’s work in CJ’s heart is as gradual and individualized as it is in my heart. So I say a gracious celebration is in order.
I almost forgot….JA you have a safe trip!
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Ken
JULY 2, 2013 @ 9:46 AM
Uh…. are we really able to read the man’s mind as clearly as some of our postings here suggest? And, are his motives in this matter as important as his behavior? If so, how would we go about assessing and naming his motives, having only a letter that he wrote to zillions of people online, and (I would assume), not having had the opportunity of a personal conversation with CJ? I’m going to take a few moments to pray for all who are involved, that they will find reconciliation and peace and vindication in the context of a renewed and intimate relationship with Christ and the proper workings of the court systems involved here, and at the same time simply thank God for answering prayer! Seems pretty clear to me that He is really doing something big here–I’m hoping that He’s also doing wonderful things in the lives of victims and abusers alike.
__________
Thanks for saying what I have been trying to say.
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Wesley Roy,
You had said:
“I lack the ability to see what a person’s motivation for doing right is.”
You have got to be kidding? Are you NOT A JUDGE OF CHARACTER?
Do you not remember the words of the great civil rights leader, Martin Luther King Jr.?
Remember when he said that he hopes that there comes a day when people are not JUDGED by the color of their skin, but by the CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTER?
Part of that judging is SEEING, or PERCEIVING a persons motives for doing right, and one of the ways in doing that is by the words that they speak.
Are you playing ignorant, or are you ignorant? Everyone has the ability to see a persons motivation. It’s one of the things that is even brought up in a court of law, a MOTIVE for the crime committed.
Ed
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He states he is withdrawing so his friends won’t draw ‘unfair and unwarranted criticism’. Actually it would be ‘warranted’.
People have been pointing this out the fact he shouldn’t be participating in this type of thing on biblical grounds due the circumstances. That his ‘friends’ should see this also. They all refuse to do so.
It seems clear to me he is stepping down to stop the wrath, and not for the purpose that the bible would ask him to do so for.
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Judging from his friends’ statements, Mahaney seems to be denying that any child sexual abuse took place at all, as absurd as that is. Maybe he thinks that is more plausible than saying that, if it did take place, he didn’t know about it. (Although that would be hard to maintain since several are in jail or juvenile detention for the crime.)
In any case, it’s probable that his lawyers, and he himself, think that it’s best to not even mention sexual abuse since that gives its reality more credibility. Morally, this is indefensible, but as a legal tactic I suppose it is. So I’m not surprised that Mahaney doesn’t mention victims. Whatever the reason is, I doubt that he cares much about them.
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JA,
Do you have all knowledge? that’s what yuo would need to make that claim. Hammering CJ with the ‘that’s not enough’ mantra is just like the LGBT crowd screaming the same thing when they make progress in their crusade to acceptance of what God calls abomination. Based on your guidance concerning tone, a more appropriate response might be ‘good for C.J, that’s a step in the right direction’. That might just be the ‘Christian’ thing to do, as a matter of fact.
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Jenn Grover at another blog thinks that Mahaney’s action is a sign that something new is going to happen in the case. Going by earlier events of this kind, such as Mahaney “stepping down” right before Brent’s documents were revealed, I have a feeling she’s right.
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Hi Ed. Martin Luther King’s great speech in which he longed for the day to come when people would be judged for the “content of their character, and not the color of their skin” suggests that he believed it was certainly possible to judge a person by that person’s actions and personal character alone, and not be the mere external conditions of their existence (such as race, wealth, politics, etc.). However, he did not demand a change in character, as he knew he could not really do that–but a change in behavior, including the eradication of Jim Crow laws, discrimination in housing, education, etc. People didn’t go on bus strikes so their white, racist neighbors would have a change of heart–they did it so that their racist neighbors would no longer act like racists, by finding it economically disastrous to do so.
This site has advocated that CJ Mahaney step back from public ministry, which he has done in this case. Shall we now add a requirement that the legitimacy and motives of his inner thoughts and spirit meet our approval? Also, since the courts have not yet rendered a verdict yet on his guilt or innocence, and he has not confessed it (as far as I know) by what Scriptures would we claim that he should not be in public ministry? There aren’t any. There are plenty of verses and texts that we might cite as implying so, or that we might cite by way of our own, personal application–but none that I know of that state clearly that a leader who is under investigation shall not speak publicly. I’m just saying we should avoid getting into the mode of applying extra rules to keep and hoops to jump through, for anyone. It’s hard to put down the sword when you’ve gotten used to battle, even for a brief rest!
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Who knows, but the motivation for stepping down may have even come from one or more of these ‘buddies’. Also based on, motivated by, the media pushback. I have a hunch that this speaker would prefer to be among the line up of speakers and not sidelined.
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I’m with Ken. I’ll rejoice that’s is a step in the right directin and continue to pray for ‘justice’ for all, whatefer that looks like. I’m not de judge.
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Wesley:
“I am simply saying this is an opportunity to celebrate the effectiveness of your efforts and instead of graciously doing that another shot is fired at CJ. I do not deny that any shots fired at him appear to be a result of his actions but I remember someone once saying, “Don’t be overcome of evil but overcome evil with good”.”
I personally don’t think this is a time for celebration and it’s not evil to state the obvious.
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chapmaned24 said:
JULY 2, 2013 @ 9:51 AM
Wesley Roy,
You had said:
“I lack the ability to see what a person’s motivation for doing right is.”
You have got to be kidding? Are you NOT A JUDGE OF CHARACTER?
Do you not remember the words of the great civil rights leader, Martin Luther King Jr.?
Remember when he said that he hopes that there comes a day when people are not JUDGED by the color of their skin, but by the CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTER?
Part of that judging is SEEING, or PERCEIVING a persons motives for doing right, and one of the ways in doing that is by the words that they speak.
Are you playing ignorant, or are you ignorant? Everyone has the ability to see a persons motivation. It’s one of the things that is even brought up in a court of law, a MOTIVE for the crime committed.
Ed
______________
I think you are misapplying MLK’s quote. He was talking about looking down upon people because of external things like being black or a pastor. 🙂
I am neither ignorant nor playing ignorant but being honest. I can make assumptions about a person’s character based on their actions but I cannot know their motivations based on their actions. I don’t think anyone can say what moved a person to make a certain decision. Scripture declares the human heart to be deceitful and God to be the only one who really knows anyone’s heart including CJ’s. I think that is the reason God described Lot as “Just Lot” ……because from his actions none of us would have thought of him as justified.
Again not defending CJ because if the allegations are true he should face criminal charges as well as censor in the Christian community. My concern is the lack of charity and grace even when God gives a victory after all of this group efforts. It seems like instead of saying, “Thank you God for working in this instance to change CJ’s decision to speak at this conference” the post are saying “God you need to do more to hurt this guy that hurt so many others”. It does not seem to fit what should be expected from Christians.
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Monique
JULY 2, 2013 @ 11:07 AM
Wesley:
“I am simply saying this is an opportunity to celebrate the effectiveness of your efforts and instead of graciously doing that another shot is fired at CJ. I do not deny that any shots fired at him appear to be a result of his actions but I remember someone once saying, “Don’t be overcome of evil but overcome evil with good”.”
I personally don’t think this is a time for celebration and it’s not evil to state the obvious.
_______
Monique I beg to differ. When you put forth an effort and God rewards that effort and you see progress it is time to celebrate. We celebrate small victories in our personal lives all the time. Celebrating a battle does not mean you think the war is over it simply means you are grateful that God has granted victory in another battle in the long war.
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I’m thankful he’s stepping down from this conference. I will be even more thankful when he steps down from them all and ecstatically thankful when he actually acknowledges the victims and their pain.
In any case, even stepping down doesn’t remove him entirely from being “a distraction” to his friends. Their words and actions toward him will still be the very distracting elephant in the room.
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Monique, what is obvious to you and why? What ‘good are you doing by judging his motives? Wesley got it right again.
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Admin note: Just landed in Santa Ana and sent through a handful of posts stuck in moderation.
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Jeff, another blogger and I have been discussing this very thing. T4G is not listed anywhere on SGM Louisville site. There seems to be only older sermons/talks of CJ at the T4G site. Is there some distancing going on? I haven’t checked Jenn’s post and have no idea if she has said the same thing.
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Wesley:
While it’s a step in the right direction, I don’t agree it’s worth celebration about ~ I’m not giving him high 5’s for this move ~ much too late in my opinion.
B4B: What Marge, Ang, and Chapman24, Hannah Thomas said….
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Unless we know everything that is hummoing in the background, good and bad, who are we to judge? If there ever was a ‘Judge not’ moment, this might be it.
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I won’t be celebrating until victims get some justice.
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I’m just talking about proper Christian conduct. This just happens to be the particular issue.
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Hey b4b, can you please either quote or indicate the comment by time posted so we can tell which comment you are referring to? Thanks much!
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Ken, Wesley,
Hi Ken.
You said:
“This site has advocated that CJ Mahaney step back from public ministry, which he has done in this case. Shall we now add a requirement that the legitimacy and motives of his inner thoughts and spirit meet our approval?”
My response:
Absolutely. We should NOT STOP until someone of LEADERSHIP is behind bars. JUSTICE CRIES OUT, and you are content with an extremely small step in the right direction, when you know dog gone well that he is sorry for nothing, playing the “I can’t judge his heart” violin?
Ya know, I have a good friend that leans Calvinistic, and we get into many many arguments about things JUST LIKE THIS.
He states things like, “Oh, lets just pray that God will sort it all out”.
Sort it out? Are you kidding? Have we ever heard that evil flourishes when good men do nothing? It’s time that you Calvinistic leaning professing Christians stand up for something and make something happen, IN THE NAME OF JESUS, instead of defending these fake and phoney leaders that are selfish only thinking of covering their own a…donkey, instead of thinking of the people under them, ya…the “little people” who are supposed to “SUBMIT” to their leaders. What a joke.
If a homeless man comes to you, are ya just gonna tell him, “I’ll pray for ya brother!!”, or are ya gonna DO SOMETHING.
How does GOD WORK? The answer is, thru people. The Holy spirit directs people here, and there, so that the person can and will DO SOMETHING.
Justice is not completed until someone in leadership is in jail.
You people just flabbergast me.
Wesley,
You said:
“Scripture declares the human heart to be deceitful and God to be the only one who really knows anyone’s heart including CJ’s.”
I call b.s. on that statement. YOU KNOW YOUR WIFES HEART WHEN SHE TELLS YOU THAT SHE LOVES YOU. You see it, you feel it. You know it. So please, spare me with that stuff, OK? God gave you a brain and a mind to discern. Please don’t play stupid, that you cannot comprehend anyone’s motives in their speech and actions.
I say all this with grace, of course. Stand up for something, Wes. Don’t just shrug your shoulders, saying, “dah, I don’t know his heart”. YES YOU DO.
Ed
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Wesley Roy,
You do a very good job of expressing disagreement in a gentle and gentlemanly way.
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Wesley Roy,
You had said:
“I think you are misapplying MLK’s quote. He was talking about looking down upon people because of external things like being black or a pastor.”
My response:
You only gave 1/2 an answer there.
The content of ones character is INTERNAL, not external. Black is on the outside, but the content of a black persons character is on the inside.
Sorry, but…you are incorrect in your statement. We JUDGE people based on what is on the inside, not the outside. Do you see?
Ed
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If I am responding to a specific comment, I will do that. At times, there might be a specific comment that provoked a response of a general nature, in which case I won’t. If I make a general comment it’s for everyone including me. Fair?
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The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it? Jer 17:9
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Matt 7:3-5
I hate it when people (Christians) use the above from Matthew to justify not judging sin. However, it literally scrams at those of us who would judge our brother. We WILL be judged with the same severity with which we meet out judgment. It’s a promise. What that will look like come judgment of our works, I have no idea. It’s just Jesus being well……harsh.
JA, That’s one of those ‘general’ type comments meant for all of us.
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Hi Ed @1:38pm, Your very spirited response tells me that you hold your convictions very tightly, and perhaps we should agree to disagree about some of the finer points of this discussion. I will say that you have done a very poor job of describing my theological leanings (I’m not Calvinist), my relationship to my friends who don’t have homes (I rub shoulders and relate with them everyday, several times a day, and live on the same block where they often sleep, and very often both pray with them and extend them material help!), and my desire to defend abusive, bad leaders (I am a survivor of an abusive, “bible” “church.”).
So, at least in this case, you have missed the mark in your alleged ability to discern motives correctly, and have therefore made an unfair judgment about me. Ouch! It’s a bummer to have someone claim to look into your soul and then publish their own opinion as if it were fact! That is why I believe we should clear away from judging people by what we perceive is “on the inside.” We are often simply wrong, because our emotions and desire for vindication clouds what we see, say, and do. CJ has stepped back from a very significant public speaking/national conference event; regardless of its meaning or motives, that speaks very, very loudly, don’t you think?
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In response to an accumulation of examples over a number threads, and not just the current thread, I propose the following addition to the Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits and Code Words:
Domination by Reiteration ad Eternum:
A rhetorical device whereby a perpetrator attempts to impose their views on an unsuspecting victim by endless repetition of unsubstantiated, unexplained and typically groundless opinions or conclusory statements—all while adamantly refusing to answer questions, respond to challenges, or even engage in discussion. Alternatively, may involve endless repetition of non-factual, often manipulative, characterizations of opinions or conclusory statements, such as where it is endlessly repeated concerning a false view or position that “It is Biblical. . . It is Biblical. . . It is Biblical! ! ! ! ,” Ad eternum, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. C.f entries for “Ad nauseam” here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam and for “Argumentum ad nauseam” here http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam. Being an attempt to overcome the victim’s freedom of thought, is inherently abusive. An extension into the arena of rhetorical manipulation of the coercive principle whereby an abusive parent will undertake to impose their will on even the youngest of children, whether by means of an extended regimen of painful violence (i.e. corporal punishment) or otherwise, the parent’s strategy being to just wear them out.
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Ken,
Nope, I don’t think it speaks loud enough. In regards to your homeless friends, why not take them into your own home, instead of the little material help? When Jesus sent the 70 disciples out, he intended for them to stay in other peoples houses, and if they refused, the disciples were to dust their feet. The Gospels also speak of a person who paid for a hotel for someone who was destitute. You might want to read Isaiah 58. Verse 7 states,
“Is it not to share your bread with the hungry
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover him,
and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?”
It’s a “do something” and not to just sit on your thumb and pray for something to happen.
I was not judging you, even tho I made a general statement about Calvinist leaning professing Christians. There are many non-Calvinists that lean Calvinist. You can tell by what they say. I think I judged correctly in that regard.
Previously you had stated that the courts have not yet had a verdict, etc. So? So what? The Bible states that by the mouth of two or three witnesses may every word be established. It states that in the Bible three times. Three times. The witnesses has spoken. And so therefore, we await justice, and the words of Paul agrees with man’s justice…not to just sit back and pray about it.
The Bible states also to be DOERS of the word, not just hearers. It states to free the oppressed. You, who state that you are a victim of spiritual abuse, should know that first hand, what it is to be set free. There is a person responsible and “one small step for man” was only for the moon walk, not CJ. The “one giant leap for mankind” will be when someone in leadership is in jail.
Respectfully,
Ed
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Born4battle re: 2:24. Thanks!
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Ok, I’m in Portland now. One more small flight in a few hours. I tell you, if you are stuck at a layover at any airport, PDX is a great one. I’m sitting in an area with a guy singing and playing on a grand piano. It’s an open area with windows for the roof (I’m sure there’s a better word, my brain may have been left behind), so it’s a nice and bright area, with plants, nice comfy chairs, ample electric outlets and free wi-fi. Every blogger’s dream! 🙂 I think I have some catching up to do.
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Ken,
Continuing on…
You had said:
The appearance of impropriety is spoken of in the Bible.
1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Timothy 5:19
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
John 7:24 (Don’t judge a book by it’s cover)
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
That tells me that we are to judge. Jesus was being judged by his deeds, that he was “working” on the Sabbath, and he was telling people NOT to judge the appearance, the outside, but the inside, the heart, because he HEALED a man on the Sabbath day.
1 Corinthians 5:12-13 tells us that we are to judge those who are in the church, and that God judges those who are outside the church.
Titus 1:7
“For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;”
BLAMELESS. CJ is not blameless, and there is a conflict of interest, an appearance of impropriety.
Ed
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Ken, you said: “I’m just saying we should avoid getting into the mode of applying extra rules to keep and hoops to jump through, for anyone.”
What about biblical qualifications of a pastor? Not only do I believe he should not be speaking, I also question whether he should be pastoring. There are enough witnesses, Matt 18 has been done. Twenty something churches have left. How much more?
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9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
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Ken,
I second JA’s remarks, and add,
1 Timothy 3:7 (KJV)
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without
The word “without” are those people who are outside the church, i.e., not Christians.
Ed
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RE: comment 2:36 pm-
How do the verses in Matt 7 “scrams at those of us who would judge our brother?”
I was listening to a short John MacArthur teaching recently and he thinks the verses mean they do not apply to not evaluating Christians, but that Jesus was talking about final judgments that were being declared on people by the false teachers/Pharisees.
They were pronouncing damnation on people by their authority and Jesus rebukes them. Iow-we are supposed to inspect fruit to determine spirituality, but in the end we cannot make a final determination as to judging/damning them. To John MacArthur, judgment is damnation in this text of Matthew, not critique.
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JA – That’s interesting about the Louisville site.
Jenn Grover wrote: “I do have my suspicions that either arrests or more damaging information will hit in the near future. If it’s one thing I have learned is that neither coincidence nor providence seems to be at work with their timing.”
Well put, I think.
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JA @ 3:58 –
Yes. And the major problem is that as soon as there was any opposition from any leader within SGM or CLC to CJ, he fled to Dever’s church. He was allowed to bypass his own church judging his character and fitness for ministry. Blah! And then he ran with the SGM headquarters to Louisville. Again, blah!
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Jeff Brown quoted Jenn Grover’s note (from SGMsurvivors I believe):
Jeff, Brent Detwiler has alluded to as much for quite some time. There have been ongoing criminal investigations.
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Blah, blah, indeed. But I could probably find other words that I would have to moderate for myself – HA!
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I just noticed The Wartburg Watch has an article posted on this as well and it looks like the statement of support from CJ’s buddies was removed. T4G and Integrity: Mahaney Is Gone and So Is the Infamous Statement
It was one thing to have the T4G remove the Facebook statement of support (including the 100+ comments) and repost it (edited) at the T4G site. But to remove the statement of support and not post an update anywhere speaks loud to me that something is cooking.
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j.a. if they allow buskering you could play the piano. make a mint. enuff to start a new blog?
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Brad!!! The amount of $$ it costs to start a new blog is about all I’d ever make playing at the airport. I wish I could play like this guy – by ear. He was so good. And now he’s gone and the piano is covered. It’s so tempting. No new blogs for me, though. Oh my – lol.
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The Christian Post has picked up this story: CJ Mahaney Drops Out of 2014 Together for the Gospel Conference Due to Sovereign Grace Lawsuit
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Finally.
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A few things:
1) Does anyone take what comes out of Mahaney’s mouth at face value anymore? Lots of folks think he’s lying but I think he’s delusional and perhaps incapable of fully understanding the trouble he’s in based on his statements to date.
2) Does anyone think that C.J. Mahaney selflessly stepped aside to help his friends? His actions over the past three years have made him appear to be about as self-centered as a person can get. If he cared about the well-being of anyone outside his immediate family he would have gotten off the conference circle two years ago and resigned from SGM rather than destroying it.
It sounds like the statements that Al Mohler and friends put out on his behalf were such a PR disaster that they finally had to kick him out of the inner circle.
And yes, there appear to be several criminal investigations going on that will likely directly or indirectly C.J. Mahaney as he was in charge of SGM/CLC when they occurred and has been outright accused by many parties of not reporting sexual abuse allegations. The lawsuit may end up being the least of his worries.
Anyone with information about criminal acts that may have occurred/still be occurring at CLC and SGM can contact the Montgomery County, Maryland police officer serving as a reference point for CLC/SGM issues.
I quote:
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Gary W. – love your comment/definition of a particular rhetorical strategy.
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“It was one thing to have the T4G remove the Facebook statement of support (including the 100+ comments) and repost it (edited) at the T4G site. But to remove the statement of support and not post an update anywhere speaks loud to me that something is cooking.”
One thing I am rejoicing about is that it sounds like the Southern Baptist Community as a whole has clearly communicated to Mark Dever, Al Mohler, D.A. Carson, and the rest of C.J. Mahaney’s Southern Baptist circle-of-friends that they’re tired of being dragged through SGM’s mud just because the individuals above are Mahaney’s buddies and personal business partners.
In particular, Al Mohler is not the Southern Baptist equivalent of the Pope in actuality although his status as the unofficial head of the SBC has been in place for a while due to the apparent inability of people in authority, including the Trustees he supposedly reports to, to criticize him without having their careers ruined.
Mohler is simply an employee of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary who should have stated from the beginning that his support for Mahaney did not reflect the views of Southern Seminary or the SBC.
The fact that he’s indirectly being forced to do this indicates that his power base is waning. That’s good news to me as Mohler’s track record for addressing sexual abuse issues is not great, and he pointedly refused to condemn C.J. Mahaney’s legal argument that the First Amendment gives Pastors the right to counsel people against calling the police or other civil authorities to report sexual abuse.
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Thanks JA, re your 2:34.
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I do. I believe I am constrained by scripture to do so, to believe that the reasons he gave for stepping down are out of sincere concern for the reasons he stated. I am to try and think the best of my brother(s) in Christ unless it is proven otherwise. I am not to stand in judgment over what I think his motives REALLY are, even if I have personal suspicions. IF he is as guilty as those who stand in judgment say he is, I am to pray for him anyway, even if I was a victim and he was my enemy. My duty as a believer is to point to Christ, regardless of my personal thoughts and opinions. I am to hope for the best for all concerned in these matters and that God be glorified in the outcome(s). Whether all that I hope for the glory of God comes to pass remains to be seen. God will bring final judgment and his justice WILL prevail.
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Born4Battles states:
B4B – Do you believe you offer me and readers here the same courtesy that you are give to Mahaney?
Because if you do, I think I could fill a page full of comments that would show otherwise.
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JA, my conduct is not the issue in my answer to the question. It was a question and I answered it, according to the ‘courtesy rules’. I attempted to draw attention to how all believers are to behave, as I see scripture telling us, using myself as an example, specifically to demonstrate a less harsh attitude. Do you have anything to say about my answer to Janna, whose judgmentalism is blatant and clear? At the same time, I feel no need to apologize for being harsh to professing Christians who clearly stand in judgment over other believers, except for not just offering the following and letting ‘what has been written’ do the rebuking.
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B4B quote:
You are wanting us to look to you as an example of a less harsh attitude??? With your personal history in dealing with others here? This is most bizarre. You’re whining about reader’s personal opinions about Mahaney (and have done the same w/the Keller article and others). Those people (Mahaney/Keller) will likely never read the words on this blog, yet you are speaking directly to people here with harsh words. Many have told you they find the way you treat people here as offensive, and you make no course correction. So, what’s the deal?
So what you are modeling for us is that it’s okay to be offensive to someone directly, but not indirectly.
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Yes, it’s important that we give C.J. Mahaney the benefit of any doubt even though he’s not bothering to argue that he’s devastated many lives by not disclosing sexual abuse allegations, which he was required to report by law/common Christian decency, because the evidence against him is so strong. All he’s doing is whining about how everyone else, including Josh Harris, his hand-picked protege and the one left cleaning up his mess after he fled the Church discipline system he imposed on others and ran off to Louisville, is responsible for his troubles and trying to get courts to dismiss the cases against him on technicalities.
Never mind that countless Christians have talked to him about the impact his conduct is having on others. Never mind that there are thousands of articles out there talking about and often proving that this this man has lied, black-mailed, and done many other sinful things solely to promote his self interest. Somehow, Mahaney is clearly someone we should be careful not to judge according to scripture
We can’t possibly suggest that his actions reflect what’s in his heart and reach the conclusion that he really doesn’t care about sexual abuse victims or want to do anything that would demonstrate that he’s a Christian in some way but name only</strong at this point. And be outraged by his conduct and judge him appropriately instead of making excuses for him.
But by contrast, we should nit-pick and assume that Julie Anne's entire post about Tim Keller is based on a deliberate lie even though all the hard evidence at hand indicates that that is not true and her conduct in no way equates Mahaneys. For one thing she's willing to entertain criticism.
Somehow we can see into Julie Annie's heart and justify judging her actions harshly. And accuse me of judgmental ism broadly and vaguely because I'm calling bullying what it is, and there's no way short of a vague one-liner to dis-credit me because what I've said is true. We don't need to look up the definition of bullying on this one. I don't care if trolls try to bully or make me the target of their impotent rage, yet I'm going to treat them with kids gloves either.
But what's the real issue here? What's the true reason for the double standard in way Julie Anne and C.J. Mahaney are being treated? Could it simply be that Mahaney is a man acting the way misogynists like to act so he’s not going to be judged and nit-picked to pieces yet Julie Anne is a woman who is not being submissive enough according to some people’s standards for women’s submissiveness. so it’s open season on her. And/or me for that matter?
So, Born4Battle, I have ignored my own advice and engaged you. And since I’m doing that I’ll let you know what my true judgment of you is: you’re a misogynist who dislikes strong women and chooses to indulge that prejudice under a pseudonym and under the guise of discussing Christian issues generally. If I had a proverbial dime for every misogynist I’ve encountered on blogs addressing sexual abuse, I could help Mahaney out with his legal bills.
And I leave that with you.
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B4B –
As a proclaimed Christian pastor, writer, speaker, and leader (as described by MANY other men, and his friends, who are in the same category) Mahaney’s character (a person’s good reputation) IS to be judged. To say one shouldn’t judge a man’s character is not what the scripture you quote means. We must judge character to determine who is qualified as an elder. By CJ’s own public actions and words over the last two years, he has disqualified himself.
In reference to Janna, she/he is not judging him guilty in the case being brought against him that I can see. She/he is judging the consistency of his actions and words.
I believe his recent words as well. However, the concern for his friends and the conference is not what he is called to be concerned about as a pastor/elder. Since he says these are his reasons, I have no problem saying that they are misplaced and wrong reasons. Here is the issue, any man or woman in a place of leadership in business, similar to Mahaney, would have been asked to take a leave from his/her position (and whatever that included) until he/she was cleared of all accusations. Why is the Church not even on par with the ethics of businesses in this issue?
“Do you have anything to say about my answer to Janna, whose judgmentalism is blatant and clear?” B4B
I do. You are judging Janna (see your above remark) just as much as you think others are judging Mahaney.
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I agree with Marge. Here’s what I posted on the original story at Christianpost:
‘Citing a desire to keep his peers from any “unfair and unwarranted criticism”‘
The criticism they have received is warranted and fair, and still is, because they didn’t give him the boot themselves.
“Though dismissed in May (and now on appeal), the lawsuit could prove a distraction from the purpose of this important conference. ”
Do you maybe think, C J, that sexual abuse occurring in your church and punishing people for going to the police and not trusting/being fearful of the abuser might have been a distraction from the gospel/mission/message of the church? Just maybe?
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B4B, no one is complaining that Mahaney stepped down. We are complaining because of the way he is spinning it. It is a chance to make himself look good. I have no idea what your problem is. It still makes his sycophant friends look stupid because they didn’t disinvite him ahead of time or take any action on this case themselves. It’s all about spin. If you can’t see the spin machine, you’re probably still on board and part of the system. You can’t see until it spits you out along with the rest of us lepers.
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“It still makes his sycophant friends look stupid because they didn’t disinvite him ahead of time or take any action on this case themselves.”
(other than to discredit the accusers and make them look stupid and to voice their support for Mahaney’s “integrity.” Yeah. it’s easy to have integrity around people who can advance your public image/status/career. But Mahaney doesn’t have much time for those little Nobodies, those troublemakers who just put the check in the offering basket every week and were rewarded by sexual abuse of their children, and ostracization for noticing a problem… nope. This is truly the neo calvinist version of Rick Warren’s purpose driven steamroller. Get on board or get out of the way of the machine. And if you happen to get bit by a wolf and have a hard time keeping up, we’ll just leave you behind. No time for that!)
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I think it’s important to look at motivation. Why did he withdraw and what were the primary motivation factors? CJ says it clearly. I’ve quoted two below:
The focus in this statement is on his friends and T4G. Folks, this is image control. Whose image is he trying to protect? His friends? T4G? Where is God in this picture?
Where is the focus? Again, it appears to be for his friends/supporters.
This is no different from what his friends have done for him publicly by issuing statements of support. This is no different than what these guys do at conferences when they spend minutes introducing their friends, giving them accolades. But what is missing? Who is missing? Where is God in all of this?
It seems to me that God’s reputation should come before the friends. Military officers step down in a situation like this. School teachers are put on administrative leave. Police officers are put on administrative leave when there is an inquiry. We’re not talking inquiries here, we’re talking tried criminal cases with convictions. These happened under Mahaney’s watch. Those are the only ones that have been tried (criminal investigations continue). Sure, I’m glad he’s not speaking at T4G, but that’s not enough. He needs to step aside from any leadership position until this situation is resolved. He is a distraction to the Gospel. The Gospel is more important than celebrity pastors or church groups.
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terriergal said:
This is the thing I harp on all the time. It’s not just the sex abuse. It’s the spiritual abuse that can last a lifetime. Not only did these leaders fail to shepherd during a horrific sex abuse crisis, but who do they represent? They twisted things in a spiritual sense to say they did things God’s way. How can you argue with God? But the reality is, it wasn’t God’s way, it was man’s way and now church leaders have messed with their heads spiritually. This kind of spiritual abandonment can take a long road to recover from – – – that is “if” they recover.
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“At the same time, I feel no need to apologize for being harsh to professing Christians who clearly stand in judgment over other believers, except for not just offering the following and letting ‘what has been written’ do the rebuking.”
You use the phrase…stand in judgment. What does that mean to you?
The Matt 7 passage you have posted twice now is referring to rash, harsh, quick, hypocritical, unfair, unjust, self-righteous judgment, many commentaries will say that, and, according to JMacArthur’s take (and others) which I posted for you, a condemning and damnation type of judging done by false teachers/Pharisees that was done according to their authority over people. It is not critiquing a professing Christian pastor’s/leader’s teachings and actions. We are supposed to do that. And we are supposed to warn others when we see words not lining up with actions so that others will not fall into the ditch.
If I were a celeb pastor like Mahaney and doing the same things he has done; split a church, ran away from his own church escaping his own elders, moved an entire org to Louisville under the guise of it being a cheaper place to live all while hosting pastors conferences at a posh resort in Florida, ignoring the survivor blogs for years (can you imagine– not only one blog, but two if not three blogs dedicated to posting stories of alleged abuse occurring at your family of churches, yet you call your people to ignore them as they are filled with gossip and slander??) …..if I were doing these things and publically criticized Mahaney for doing these things then the verses you post would apply to me, as I would be a self-righteous hypocrite.
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All,
You (and you know who you are) are assuming you know how he is spinning it. His reasons were valid and not necessarily spinning anything. that he didn’t do it the way the self-righteous ones would have liked is another matter. If he is spinning it, shame on him. A question was asked, I provided a personal answer and why. I provided a passage of scripture concerning judgment that DOES apply to all of us. We WILL be judged in the same manner as we judge others, and some of you claim the right to judge, name call, and throw anyone under the bus who doesn’t respond they way you want them to. You OUGHT to be ashamed, unless my assumption that you might be genuine Christians is untrue, in which case you are just acting naturally. Judge on. I won’t, even if I think C.J. Mahaney should be shot at dawn. Neither will I keep trying to answer your personal accusations. I’ll just assume something I said touched hit a nerve and you didn’t like it much. I wouldn’t either. I am a sinner saved by grace just like the rest of you. And truth with a bad attitude (assuming mine is really bad) is still better than lies with a smile. I will NEVER refuse to apply scripture to a situation just because someone’s feelings might be hurt.
I have yet to personally call anyone names. I used the hypothetical IF and WE a LOT. If the shoes fits though, wear it and repent.
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You know, I really hate it when people come on blogs and spout off a bunch of Bible verses to “prove” their point. It means absolutely nothing to me. I can quote and twist Scripture just as well as anybody else, including Born4Battle. Like this one: “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” (2 Tim 1:7) See? Right there it says that God has given me a sound mind, and my sound mind is telling me that CJM and his friends are full of crap. How about that?
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Marge
😉 😉 😉
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LOL, Marge!
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Hey Marge
How about this one?
Rom 4:17 ASV …. and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.
I’ve given a new name to the SSB adversary (you know who you are)
“Lovingkindness” – and calling those things that are not, as though they were.
Jer 31:3
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying,
Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:
therefore with “lovingkindness” have I drawn thee.
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From Julie Anne:
“This is the thing I harp on all the time. It’s not just the sex abuse. It’s the spiritual abuse that can last a lifetime. Not only did these leaders fail to shepherd during a horrific sex abuse crisis, but who do they represent? They twisted things in a spiritual sense to say they did things God’s way. How can you argue with God? But the reality is, it wasn’t God’s way, it was man’s way and now church leaders have messed with their heads spiritually. This kind of spiritual abandonment can take a long road to recover from – – – that is “if” they recover.”
I agree. Joshua Harris, Senior Pastor of Covenant Life Church, has certainly messed with some heads regarding the appropriate way for the Church to handle sexual abuse.
A few months ago Joshua Harris publicly claimed that he had been sexually abused as a child and encouraged kids to call the police if they had experienced the same treatment. I was skeptical of his claims given that they came at a time when CLC was hemorrhaging members due to the release of the 2nd Amended complaint and the Plaintiffs attorneys had just vowed to appeal the dismissal of the class-action suit against CLC, but I hoped Harris would quit allocating resources toward defending perpetrators and start showing genuine Love and concern for sexual abuse victims in his community.
Instead of following up on his story by calling the police and reporting his abuser, Harris quickly dropped the subject and went back to business as usual. He didn’t address the contradiction between arguing that he believed sexual abuse should be reported to the police as a crime while also claiming that the First Amendment gives him the right to cover up abuse by virtue of his possession of an ordination certificate. In essence he was stating, “Call the police if you’re abused, kids, but don’t forget that I believe I have the right to excommunicate your parents if you do.”
He did not discipline or criticize Grant Layman, the CLC Executive Pastor who has publicly admitted not disclosing allegations of abuse pertaining to Nathan Morales, a former CLC member/volunteer in CLC’s Children’s ministry facing charges, some of which go back decades, for multiple counts of child sexual abuse.
If the Executive Pastor isn’t expected to follow the law and report abuse allegations, why should anyone else feel the need to do so at CLC, Mr. Harris?
And the last straw was the June 23rd meeting the CLC Pastors had about the lawsuit. Up till that meeting people still had hope that the CLC Pastors would come around and be honest about the Church’s terrible history of covering up allegations of abuse and do something, like formulate a public sexual abuse policy that had been reviewed by professionals for its likely effectiveness, to protect kids on CLC’s premises now.
But instead Harris, who claims he’s a sexual abuse survivor, did everything he could to discredit victims and illustrate that the CLC Pastors are much more interested in keeping their bottoms out of legal trouble than they are in acting like Godly leaders.
According to many witnesses, Harris trotted out a CLC lawyer who proceeded to bash the Plaintiffs, several of whom have sexual abuse stories backed up by criminal convictions and trash-talk the Plaintiffs lawyers, one of whom is one of the most famous attorneys in the world in addition to regularly getting high marks from her peers for her integrity through the Martindale-Hubbell rating system, which is well-regarded in the legal field.
And of course Harris and the CLC pastors paid for this lawyer’s unprofessional, unnecessary, and un-Christian attempt to help them justify not answering the simple question, “did you cover up allegations of sexual abuse or not” with people’s tithe money.
Lastly, to make sure no sexual abuse victim was in any doubt about the level of support they might get from CLC Pastors, Joshua Harris essentially called all the Plaintiffs liars by saying something along the lines of, “The Plaintiffs case is far from accurate” and then refusing to answer questions about that statement or anything else pertaining to the case against CLC for an indeterminate amount of time.
Joshua Harris may not have sexually or physically abused anyone, but he’s certainly hurt many people emotionally and spiritually through his leadership of CLC and is presently endangering the physical, spiritual, and emotional well-being of kids now by not taking their safety seriously.
Thus I believe that Harris, like his mentor Mahaney, has clearly demonstrated that he doesn’t meet the Biblical qualifications for being a Pastor.
The good news is that these SGM/CLC/Mohler, Inc. guys are all on their way out. The less-than-perfect news is that we don’t know if the Pastors/Church leaders replacing them will be better stewards of the role God has given them.
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Thanks, Marge. That about sums it up. 🙂
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JA wrote “You are wanting us to look to you as an example of a less harsh attitude??? With your personal history in dealing with others here? This is most bizarre. You’re whining about reader’s personal opinions about Mahaney (and have done the same w/the Keller article and others). Those people (Mahaney/Keller) will likely never read the words on this blog, yet you are speaking directly to people here with harsh words. Many have told you they find the way you treat people here as offensive, and you make no course correction. So, what’s the deal?
So what you are modeling for us is that it’s okay to be offensive to someone directly, but not indirectly.”
Interesting to see how B4B obviously follows the teaching of Sternodox Keckhaver from The Church of the SubGenius : “I don’t practice what I preach, because I’m not the kind of man I’m preaching to.”
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To ALL
Yup – Judging is good to do – Real good – And “Biblical” – To discern, examine.
1 Corinthians 2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things,
Judgeth – Strongs #350 – anakrino…
scrutiniuze, investigate, interrogate, determine, ask, question, discern, examine, search.
In the KJV – examine 6, judge 6, ask question 2, search 1, discern 1; 16
Judgeth – Thayers Lexicon
to investigate, examine, enquire into, scrutinise, sift, question
determine (the excellence or defects of any person or thing )
—————
1Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Prove – Strongs #1381 dokimazo – test (literally or figuratively) discern, examine,
KJV – prove 10, try 4, approve 3, discern 2, allow 2, like 1, examine 1; 23
Prove – Thayers
to test, examine, prove, scrutinise ( to see whether a thing is genuine or not ), as metals
to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy
1John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but *try the spirits* ( discern, test, examine,)
whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
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re comment: 9:21
“We WILL be judged in the same manner as we judge others, and some of you claim the right to judge, name call, and throw anyone under the bus who doesn’t respond they way you want them to.”
Ok, I give up. I am going to say a big amen to what you wrote about being judged in the same manner we judge others. I will be glad for it and here is why.
I first found out who Mahaney was through a video I watched with him and several others in a q/a panel discussion. Perhaps a TGC or T4G video–I can’t recall because it was in the late spring of 2011. I remember thinking his actions, mannerisms, and constant interruptions in the video were odd and asked a pastor friend who he was. I forgot about him until I read a few weeks later a headline saying that CJ Mahaney steps down from SGM. I remembered that was the man who acted so oddly in the video, so I read the article.
Ever since July 2011 when I read that initial post and googled sgm and, to my shock, found sgmsurvivors, TWW and sgmrefuge, I have read every bit of information I could find about Mahaney and SGM- including the back posts about him/SGM from those 3 sites, all of the heartbreaking survivor stories posted on survivors and refuge, every new post from those sites and almost all of the comments, the entre Detweiler docs, sermons by Mahaney, anything/everything,
The reason I did this was not because of him-shepherding pastors are nothing new, but because of the esteem so many professing Christian national leaders held for him. I went to a church for 9 months that held him and Mark Driscoll in high esteem. I wondered… what was going on? Aren’t they reading what I am reading? Can’t they even see that he is acting with a false humility with his I am the worst sinner stuff?
I did my homework…two years worth. So, for that reason, I have no worries about being judged in like manner for what I may say about Mahaney. I hope I am “judged” as thoroughly and painstakingly as I have investigated Mahaney. I am sure others have much more time invested than me. They shouldn’t worry either.
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