Disturbing Trends, Doctrine as Idol, J.D. Hall

Indoctrinating Your Children with Doctrine

Julie Anne

*     *     *

Someone sent me a link to this book for children.  The book was just recently published – just over a month ago – April 2013.

arminians

Here is the book description from Amazon:

Come along on a journey with Mitchell, as he recalls his nightmare for his mother. Mitchell was in a land of darkness and gloom, when due to no cooperation of his own, a Knight in shining armor saved him and all the other captives He intended to save. “Help! Arminians are Giving Me Nightmares Again!” is a children’s allegory designed to teach your kids the Doctrines of Grace through the use of creative story-telling.

So check this out.  Here’s this book for children advertised on Amazon, right?  A book written specifically for children, mind you.   Go read the one negative review and all of the comments following.  We’ve got a doctrinal war going on, people.  A doctrinal war going on in the review section of a children’s storybook.

Here is that one negative review (as of June 1, 2013 – because you can be sure more will be coming):

I apologize. The decription is enough to give me the heebee-jeebees. Didn’t buy or read the book; don’t intend to. Since only a very few are chosen for salvation and many, many will go to eternal damnation (along with all and every infant), the chances of my grandchildren being those for whom God intended to save is awfully slim. Don’t want to give them Calvinistic nightmares. (Source)

As of right now, there are three pages of bantering back and forth Calvinism vs Arminianism.  Here are a couple of more comments following the negative review (man, see what happens when you leave a negative review somewhere – I sure hope this guy doesn’t get sued).

Actually, the fear that God won’t choose someone because they are too bad dovetails with the classic Arminian doctrine of conditional election, whereas unconditional election isn’t based on how good or bad the sinner is. So thanks for shooting yourself in the foot. Conditional election would give a kid nightmares. (Source)

And here’s a response to the above comment:

Keystone, your comment shows that you do not know Arminian doctrine rightly.

That’s the point of “unconditional election”. It has nothing to do with merit or demerit. Calvinism teaches man is not worthy of salvation, and that is right. However, it also essentially teaches that others are damned without any reference too their deserving it (although, that is denied; nevertheless, it is the logical conclusion).

Conditonal election would not give nightmares for the Arminian can truthfully tell the child God loves him and will save him; all he need do is trust Christ.

If the Calvinist were honest, he would need to tell the child that he might be of the elect or you might be damned to hell forever and there is nothing you can do about it. While the child cries that God can’t be like that, in good Calvinist fashion, you can tell him, “Who are you, child, to answer back to God.”

If I were 7 years old and heard Calvinistic doctrine, I’d have stinking nightmares…along with wetting my pj’s! (Source)

You all have got the picture that these are review comments on a CHILDREN’S BOOK, right? Let me rephrase it, these are reviews for a book that was written for us to read to our cute little munchkins/offspring/heritage/blessings/arrows/passel/whatever-you-want-to-call-your-kids.

We all know that Christianity has basic tenets:  Christ’s death and resurrection, virgin birth, Christ is Son of God, saved by grace through faith, etc.  Silly me – I thought I just needed to know those kinds of basics to be a Christian.  It wasn’t until a few years ago that I had even heard of the names “Calvinism” and “Arminism.”  It confused me.  It still confuses me.

We’ve talked about the idolatry of doctrine before.  I believe the idolatry of doctrine can create an environment in which abuse is allowed to continue in churches.  The obsessive focus on doctrine can become a distraction to the message of Christ and what it really means to live out the life Christ intended:  loving God and loving others.

I have a problem with training children this stuff at such a young age.  What is the purpose? To raise up little like-minded warriors to defend your brand of Christianity?  Yea, I know, train up a child in the way he should go passage in Deuteronomy – – and that’s based on your interpretation of scripture because we all know your interpretation is the right interpretation and it doesn’t matter whether this stuff has been argued and debated for centuries, you’ve got it all figured out.  Uh-huh, I’m tracking with you.  I bought into this stuff in the Homeschool Movement when we were told to produce as many babies as possible so our little children could become spiritual warriors on the battlefield.

If the Bible has everything we need for life and godliness, why do my children need to learn Calvin’s stuff or the Arminian stuff?  Why can’t it just be solely from the Bible?   LDS carry their Bibles, too, along with the Book of Mormon when they go to their wards to worship.  I have seen some combo versions that include the Pearl of Great Price and The Doctrines and Covenants.   These are all part and parcel of LDS.

The way I’m seeing it, there are some Christians who behave the same way as Mormons. They have their Bible along with the Institutes of Calvin.  I wonder if there is a combo Calvin Institutes/Bible in publication yet?  By the way, I’m picking on the staunch Calvinists because that is my frame of reference.  Do Arminians have a “bible” like Calvin’s Institutes?  If they do, then add them to this paragraph.  I’m picking on anyone who adds another book to their Bible and elevates it to the level of Bible.  Ask a Mormon which book is more important to them.  They have a hard time saying that the Bible is #1.  When I talk to some people, I get the feeling they read more about their brand of doctrine than they read from their own Bibles.

I have a problem with people elevating men’s ideas as gospel above the Bible and especially when those men’s ideas become so divisive that somehow Christ and the true meaning of Christianity somehow gets lost.

Yea, I think I’ll stick with just the Bible for my kids.  Men and their ideas complicate Christianity for me.  For realz.

*     *     *

Related links:

608 thoughts on “Indoctrinating Your Children with Doctrine”

  1. Wait, wait, wait… this is a real book?! When I first glanced at the pic at the top of the post, I thought it was satire, but then I clicked on the link to the Amazon page…this is just bizarre! What’s next, “Night of the Living Dispensationalists”?

    Like

  3. Hi Julie Anne,
    I found your blog through researching spiritual abuse after a negative experience with one particular pastor (Isolated incident, not abusive yet, but he’s heading down that road).
    Here’s my question for you.
    “I bought into this stuff in the Homeschool Movement when we were told to produce as many babies as possible so our little children could become spiritual warriors on the battlefield.”
    I have read a few of your posts about homeschooling, and it has me thinking, and a bit bothered. We homeschool, and I’ve heard of the sub-movements, if you will, such as quiver-full, but on the whole, I have felt that these are on the fringe of home-schooling in general. My experiences with other families such as in support groups, etc, is much more well-rounded, balanced, and inclusive of families making decisions that are right for THEIR family…in fact, that is, in my experience, one of the major reasons to enjoy this freedom…to make decisions for your own family based on your intimate knowledge of them, and the leading of the Lord. It would seem to me that perhaps problems arise (abuse), when one takes teaching from another person and tries to take it as “gospel”. (Much like you said here: “I have a problem with people elevating men’s ideas as gospel above the Bible and especially when those men’s ideas become so divisive that somehow Christ and the true meaning of Christianity somehow gets lost.

    Yea, I think I’ll stick with just the Bible for my kids. Men and their ideas complicate Christianity for me. For realz.”) (I agree, BTW)

    Would you agree? Do you think it is possible to be a Christian homeschooler without becoming abusive? I guess the question could also be put, can you go to a church without being abused by the leadership? (Sounds kind of silly when I put it that way. But I guess that’s the direction my thoughts are taking.) I know what my answer would be to those questions, but what are yours?

    I really appreciate your blog, and you making a safe place for those who have experienced abuse, and for sounding the bell on abuse. It’s so horrible what we humans do to each other and how we distort the love of God.

    Like

  4. Hi Rebecca and welcome!

    Great questions and comment. I think you do have it right. It’s when you adopt mens ideologies instead of searching out for yourself from scripture what you believe God wants for your family. My trap that we fell into at church and in the Homeschooling Movement is we did elevate men and trusted them and their words/practices.

    When you get sucked into the Homeschool Movement (the bad stuff), you get connected with others who have similar bad ideologies and practices. For example, I participated in a particular online forum which was quiver-full, patriarchal, courtship-only, etc. So when you are “in” that kind of environment, you tend to lose sense of what is really mainstream or normal. If someone from mainstream homeschooling came to that forum, they’d probably be scared away.

    I do believe you can be a Christian and find a healthy church and homeschool your kids – absolutely! Watch for warning signs: ie, anyone who tries to put himself in a position of authority of you and direct your lives, how you function as a Christian, parent, etc. Watch for someone who says they are showing you the “biblical” or “godly” way. You have just as much of a direct line to God as the best conference speaker or pastor. Allow God to speak to you.

    BTW, I still homeschool and I’m at a pretty healthy church.

    Like

  5. Good one, Ryan! How about “It Came From Outer Doctrine!”?
    Don’t worry, folks. Only those predestined (or is it predestinated? Never could figure that one out.) Only those predestined to buy the book will buy it. it’ll prolly sell 39 copies in order to leave us wounded but not kill us. Someone will rebut with their new bestseller “I chose to dream about my Savior”.

    Like

  6. Thank you, so much!!! Your last paragraph is exactly what I believe, and how I have always lived. You can learn a lot from others, but never as much as directly from God’s Word! And anything ANYONE ever says must be judged against God’s Word.

    I think this ” So when you are “in” that kind of environment, you tend to lose sense of what is really mainstream or normal.” is true in any situation. What you surround yourself with, feed yourself with, becomes “normal”. It is so important to temper our influences with the Word of God.

    Like

  7. Hmm, there’s also a book entitled “Help, Mom! There Are Arminians Under My Bed!” Though it was published about 4 months earlier by the same author, it has the same number of pages as the other and virtually the same Table of Contents. Also, the first page is exactly the same. Maybe he thought the earlier title was too silly even by his standards.

    http://www.amazon.com/Help-There-Arminians-Under-ebook/dp/B00CHZJFIE/ref=pd_sim_sbs_kstore_1

    I think the doctrines of grace are biblical (NOT the way they are taught by the neo-Calvinists), but I agree that, though the Bible speaks fairly often about the “elect,” the subject’s importance is exaggerated when taught to young children. And scary (to kids) titles like these are really misguided.

    Like

  8. Okay, that’s it. I’m gonna write some children’s books!

    Ryan M wrote: “What’s next, ‘Night of the Living Dispensationalists’?” No, Ryan, the Left Behind series has already been done. 😉

    Like

  11. Ryan M. and Gary have me literally LOL over here. I think that’s the best approach to this. It’s really almost too ridiculous to seriously debate. Kids do not “get” this stuff, nor do they care. I’m quite certain it’s not the kids debating on the Amazon reviews.

    What ever happened to stories like Noah’s Ark, Daniel in the Lion’s Den, David and the Giant, or even just Owl Moon, for goodness sake? {sigh}

    Like

  12. I’m on vacation and typing on my iPhone, so I’ll have to keep my comment short for real this time, but I saw this and just had to say something. I would say that I lean Calvinist in my doctrinal beliefs, but this book bothers me. There are some ideas of the faith that should be left until a person is more mature, both in terms of age AND spiritually. This is one of those topics. Stick with the basics with kids along with Bible stories, teaching them more as they mature. When they can handle it, then you can explain the whole Calvinism/Arminian thing and let them make up their mind. I’m still figuring out the differences myself.

    Like

  13. Two quick thoughts:

    First, I Scripture is clear IMHO that it is the parents responsibility to shape the worldview of their children in every area. I am not saying they must do it alone but they are free to use whatever individuals and resources they choose. I submit that home life shapes the worldview of children by default even if parents are not intentional about it.

    Secondly, This is a waste of paper for the intended audience. They probably will not understand the doctrinal differences. They will probably never meet a pure Calvinist or Arminian. They probably don’t care. It is probably good that he just repeated material from a previous book so he would not waste too much time.

    Like

  14. Heather Has Tulips. Daddy’s Elect Roommate. Hermeneutics with Dick and Jane. One Fish Two Fish God Chose You Fish.

    Like

  15. It’s Real.

    My writing partner (the burned-out preacher-man in rural PA) told me about it a couple weeks ago. He’s been having some bad run-ins with Young Restless and TRULY TRULY Reformed Hyper-Calvinists recently. (He stressed the overwhelming Righteous Arrogance of these Predestined Elect, and that it seems to be getting worse over time.)

    Like

  16. Someone just provided me with background info on the author. I’ve added my $.02, too.

    FB http://www.facebook.com/AuthorJDHall

    Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_4?_encoding=UTF8&field-author=JD%20Hall&search-alias=digital-text&sort=relevancerank

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen (I just skimmed through his interesting Twitter feed.) Twitter is pretty revealing. He doesn’t seem to care for Rachel Held Evans and calls Peter Lumpkins “Satan.” Hmm, Peter Lumpkins has some great articles highlighting the SGM lawsuit. He also wrote up some procedures for consideration on sex abuse prevention (my words not his) to present to the SBC. I’ve seen him as a man of convictions a bit mouthy (so am I, right?). I wouldn’t call him Satan. In fact, I don’t know that I would call most people I dislike “Satan.” What’s funny is he calls Lumpkins “Satan” and in another tweet tells Rachel Held Evans, she should apologize to Piper. Ok.

    Pulpit and Pen http://pulpitandpen.org/jds-books/

    YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/glommer26

    Like

  18. I have a problem with training children this stuff at such a young age. What is the purpose? To raise up little like-minded warriors to defend your brand of Christianity?

    Calvinjugend, growing up to become Calvinsturmtruppen.

    “Give me your children and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.” — A.Hitler

    Like

  19. Hmm, there’s also a book entitled “Help, Mom! There Are Arminians Under My Bed!”

    Now THAT is an obvious title knockoff of “Help, Mom! There are Liberals Under My Bed!”

    (Yes, that was also a REAL book that caused a bit of a stir when it came out a few years ago, during one of the big election frenzies.)

    Like

  20. The way I’m seeing it, there are some Christians who behave the same way as Mormons.

    A lot of times, this goes way beyond the Mormons. When Calvinism goes political (like the Reconstructionists), I liken it to classic Communism — Purity of Ideology above all else. Purity of Ideology justifying ANYTHING to bring about that Perfect Purity — just ask Citizen Robespierre or Comrade Pol Pot.

    They have their Bible along with the Institutes of Calvin. I wonder if there is a combo Calvin Institutes/Bible in publication yet? By the way, I’m picking on the staunch Calvinists because that is my frame of reference. Do Arminians have a “bible” like Calvin’s Institutes? If they do, then add them to this paragraph. I’m picking on anyone who adds another book to their Bible and elevates it to the level of Bible.

    I’ve seen that done with Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth, I’ve seen it done with Watchman Nee’s writings, I’ve seen it done with Left Behind (all 22 volumes), I’ve heard of it happening now with Atlas Shrugged (which is the same escape/revenge fantasy as LB, just pitched to a different audience). There are a LOT of “67th Books of the Bible” out there, not just “elevated to the level of” but actually superseding the other 66.

    Like

  21. Ok, questions here. Can we parent without indoctrinating our children into our belief system?

    I think we as Christians are supposed to train up our children in the way of the Lord, but when is it too much? Or is there ever a too much? I would consider the Westboro Baptist children to be indoctrinated. When did that line get crossed from good biblical teaching to harmful indoctrination?

    And Gary, I cannot stop laughing at your comment. You are hilarious!

    Like

  22. The Phelps kids were indoctrinated, but only in the same way that you would call a North Korean prison camp “indoctrination.” http://blank.org/addict/ is a story that was squelched by Westboro litigation.

    J.D. Hall seems marginally better then Fred Phelps, but it seems to be a pretty small margin.

    Like

  23. Well, my views on your question about parenting may currently be reactionary to our previous approach, though I’m trying to work through my issues and find a balance.

    Two years ago our children were being indoctrinated on several levels. We used our church’s curriculum for home schooling. They had to abide by the “holiness” dress standards, though they had no personal convictions about this. They had to abide by the dietary “guidelines” of the church. People were literally reported to ministers and disciplined for breaking these “guidelines.” They were spanked for not saying “hi” to an adult who greeted them. We don’t do any of that any more.

    We do still read Bible stories. We bless our food. We try to set a good example for our kids on how to treat one another. We visited a church recently. Our kids will, invariably, pick up some of our beliefs. I want to offer them more, but I want my kids to want it. I don’t believe it’s something that should be forced on them. I’ve seen the negative fruit of that approach.

    So, yes, I do think there can be too much. I’m still trying to find what is “just right,” if there is such a thing.

    Like

  24. JD has begun tweeting w/me. I invited him to join the discussion here. He offered me a free book so I can read it before judging a book by its cover. That’s a nice offer. I’m not sure what else there is to know. I read the Table of Contents which included TULIP and read the brief summary. It’s still an attempt to teach children the Doctrines of Grace.

    Like

  25. What I’ve seen by briefly skimming this feed is the same thing I’ve seen in most (all?) of the negative comments – an apparent denial of the old adage, “don’t judge a book by its cover.” I’ve also seen snark that would exceed any accusation of what my own title presents. If the problem is teaching children doctrine, then that’s an issue I can’t remedy. The way I read Scripture, I’ve no choice but to “teach what accords to sound doctrine.” If the issue is teaching man-made doctrine or Calvin’s institutes instead of Scripture, I would take exception because it’s simply untrue. Everything that I believe/teach about the Ordo Salutis is directly tied to Scripture and I became a Monergist without reading a single work by Calvin. If the issue is being snide or mean toward Arminians, I would urge you to read the book before rushing to judgment. That’s simply not present within the book at all and in fact, the only time the word “Arminian” is used is within the title. This is no more “indoctrination” that such books as “Pilgrim’s Progress” or “The Chronicles of Narnia.” Now if “indoctrination” IS in your opinion, “teaching doctrine,” here I stand. I don’t want schools to indoctrinate my children (because it’s not their job). I don’t want the media to indoctrinate if they do it subliminally or deceitfully. But teaching children doctrine? This is a command of the pastoral epistles for each and every believer, and in the spirit of Deuteronomy 6.

    And to say that I am “marginally better than Fred Phelps” really is unfair, wrong, and back-handed. It’s an untenable accusation, and should be apologized for in right-mindedness.

    Like

  26. Mein Calvinism. My Little Red Book of Chairman Cal. And for Mormons there’s Indoctrinations and Calvinists.
    I prefer doctrine to indoctrine but, yeah, we parents all indoctrinate our kids with whatever lifestyle we live.
    BeenThereDoneThat- have you sat down with your kids and splained to them the change and why you did it? It may prevent them from excusing rebellion when they get to that age.

    Like

  27. Thanks for accepting my offer in “stopping by,” JD. I think I’m pretty clear in the article that for me it is not Calvinism vs Arminianism issue. As I said in my tweet to you and also in the article above, if I found a children’s book on Arminianism dissing Calvinism, I would have posted that as well. In fact, I actually did search for about 10 minutes and could not find any book for children like that.

    My issue is truly the indoctrination part of the equation. My readers may have other issues about your book, but they speak for themselves.

    So, I guess my questions to you are:

    Do you feel that teaching the essentials of Christianity are not enough?

    Have you written any children’s books on essentials of Christianity or the gospel?

    Do you believe the Doctrines of Grace to be essential in order to be a Believer? (BTW, I’d ask the same questions from an Arminian, so please don’t think I”m picking on you just because you are Calvinist.)

    Does it make you wonder why the Calvinists here have a problem with the “cover” of your book? Does it concern you?

    An observation from someone who is new to all of this lingo. Why does Calvinism have such weird lingo: Ordo Salutis, Monergism. I don’t see these words in the Bible. And again, if I had an Arminian come over here and say words like that, I’d be an equal-opportunity offender 🙂

    If Christianity is supposed to be easy for a child to understand, I fail to see the need for weird lingo that isn’t even in the Bible. What’s up with that?

    Like

  28. JD,
    Thanks for stopping by. The title itself is an insinuation. Whether I’m more Calvinist or more Arminian I wouldn’t get the book based on the title. (Pssst… I’m more Calvinist but don’t tell anyone.)

    Like

  29. Gary, Ok, that little disclosure makes me laugh even harder at your Dr. Seuss phrase. hahaha!!!!

    BTW, you have a good point that you made with BeenThereDoneThat. Explaining what happened would be very helpful.

    Like

  30. Maybe JD’s title is a rouse to get a reaction. A prod like Protestant’s Progress or The Chronicles of Anglicanism.

    Like

  31. Gary and Julie Anne,
    No, I haven’t specifically explained to my kids about the changes. Thank you for the “food for thought.” We are still wading through the muck of the recovery process. It’s exhausting. It never even occurred to me to have a sit-down with the kids. Thanks.

    Like

  32. Julie,

    1. No, I do not believe teaching “the essentials” are enough. Primarily, because we are told to teach “the whole counsel of God’s Word” and because “all of the Scripture is good for reproof, correction, formation of sound doctrine,” etc.. Secondarily, because the only way we can determine what “the essentials” are is by our own standards of priority. Who’s the person that decides that? Who decides what is an essential? Third, the Doctrines of Grace deal directly with the topic of salvation (what it is, how it works, how it’s given etc) which I feel to be pretty darn essential.

    2. No, correctly understanding salvation is not a requirement FOR salvation. However (speaking for myself and my own development as a believer), understanding the grace-aspect of salvation GREATLY benefits my understanding of God’s glory and elevates my worship to understand the vast depths and heights of his saving grace. Also, it IS necessary for Biblical ecclesiology, missiology, etc. It plays into so much of how we Christians conduct ourselves both in our own lives and within the church.

    3. It doesn’t concern me (as in, “keep me up at night”) that people would take issue with the cover, assuming they would read the contents. Ironically, most complaints about the cover include some insult toward me not being open-minded, which I find less than sincere if they didn’t read the content. The cover is meant as a novelty – something we can laugh about. If we can’t laugh about things, we’re pretty messed up people.

    4. Concerning big words, I’ve often used this example: If you went to the doctor and he diagnosed you with “Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis” (which is an actual medical disorder, I didn’t make that up) you would not only soak in everything the doctor had to say about it, but ask for a brochure and literature that you could go home and read. You would search on WebMD and Google it and learn everything there is to know about it. You would talk about it to all your friends. You wouldn’t say, “I just can’t figure out these big words.” You can learn about what’s important to you. That’s #1 – we are a smart, literate people. Words like “Ordo Salutis” and “Monergism” aren’t complicated. We can handle them. And to anyone that says kids can’t handle these words, I can introduce you to a whole lot of kids that not only know those words, but can explain other words like “propitiation, expiation, sanctification, justification” and those are Biblical words (man didn’t make them up). Those are within the Text itself.

    And so I would fundamentally deny that we need to keep our teachings “simple.” This is the Word of God we’re talking about. If he gave it to us, it’s for us to know. And there’s nothing wrong about being intellectual about it. I call the opposite thinking of this “bumper-sticker theology” (if it’s too big to fit in a catchy slogan on a bumper sticker it’s too big). It creates the watered down and (not trying to be mean) basically ignorant Christianity that’s prevalent in modern evangelicalism.

    I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to answer these questions, but I’ll say this concerning much of what I’ve seen here and in a few Amazon reviews: If people want others to be nicer, they don’t need to be so mean in the process.

    Like

  33. Ok, JD, I appreciate your very thorough response. It helps me to see where you are coming from. I don’t want to go through line by line of everything, but it was very helpful to me. Some I agree with, some I don’t, and that’s fine.

    I’m struck by the contrast in these comments: The cover is meant as a novelty – something we can laugh about. If we can’t laugh about things, we’re pretty messed up people.

    and this one:

    If people want others to be nicer, they don’t need to be so mean in the process.

    Do you not see the hypocrisy here? Who do you think is laughing at the title of your book? Are Arminians laughing? I would think they would be offended by the title.

    I will give you this much: I think you and I both know how to yank people’s chains. I became aware of something just this week – – that I use snark and sarcasm to draw people into conversations. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it per se, but if you are honest with yourself (and I had to be honest with myself), my/your comments can be abrasive to certain people. They cause a reaction. You have to know that the title of your book is causing a response (both positive and negative). So, this business about telling people who are being mean to be nicer, I say, “give me a break.” You dish it out, you need to be able to take it.

    Like

  35. I never laugh. At my age I don’t want any more lines on my face.
    There is no disparity between education and emotions.
    If my doc said that word to me I wouldn’t leave his office until he splained it in regular terms of meaning.
    Of my 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade boys there are 2 smarty-pants who know those words and can talk about them. All credit goes to their parents who have focused on teaching them one on one. Normal kids don’t get those concepts yet. At least not the big words.
    For the record- the title of the book is mean.

    Like

  36. Gary, I’m writing this anonymously to let you know I’m going to rip off all of your book title ideas. Every year a bunch of friends and I have a contest for “Christian books that ought not to be published.” We vote on the entries and award a prize. (If I win with one of your, I’ll split the prize with you.)

    Like

  37. We see these in places like 1 John 2:2 or Romans 3:25 in the KJV, ESV or other literal translations (which is why literal translations or the original language is best to convey the deep, rich meaning that can’t fit on a bumper sticker).

    Like

  38. Thank you, JD. I don’t read ESV or KJV. I just checked Biblegateway.com and found it.

    BTW, I think Gary has a good point. He identified himself as Calvinist and he didn’t like the title.

    You may have thought the title was funny. No kid is going to understand what you mean by that title. But the title is essentially saying: “my doctrine is right and yours is wrong.” You don’t see that as “in your face” in a negative way?

    Anonymous: I want in on that deal 🙂

    Like

  39. Anonymous- I hope the prize is a bumper sticker. “Whosoever will may come” would fit on a bumper sticker.

    Like

  43. JD, thank you for being willing to come on this bog and interact. You are definitely a good sport. And if you are the same JD Hall I think you are, you are older than my parents. So kudos! You’re better at social media than some Gen X-ers!

    If I recall correctly, I believe that you are a Dispensationalist, which is not common for most Calvinists. How strongly do you hold to that view of the end times?

    I don’t agree with your positions on some of this, but I respect your views.

    Like

  44. Do you know what my doctrine is? LOL Ok, now the truth is really coming out, people. The in-your-face kind of doctrine that is my-way-or-the-highway. Right before your eyes, folks.

    Like

  45. Gary, although you think that can fit on a bumpersticker, do you understand that it’s a quotation from the Old Testament (Joel 2:32) of which the entire verse says, “all who call upon the Lord…will be those who the LORD has called?,” which adds important (I would argue Calvinistic) context to the verse? You can’t fit that on a bumper sticker. Although, it was nice chatting with you people. I’ve got to go back to the dark, musty world of Calvinism and prepare a sermon for tomorrow that will go right over people’s heads 🙂 Peace.

    Like

  46. Gary, the prize is usually a chocolate bar or a music CD. But I will consider your bumper sticker. It’s a lot shorter than John 3:16.

    Like

  47. My love can beat up your love. I can drive the speed limit more than you can. *Wondering who Anonymous really is*

    Like

  48. That’s right, JD. When Jesus said it He said the whole verse from Joel so no one would misunderstand and think they had an actual option. Thanks for your input.

    Like

  50. Here’s what the verse really says- Joel 2: 32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

    Like

  51. Julie Anne, it’s only right and fair that you share in one third of the prize since this is your blog. It’s a deal.

    Like

  52. JD Hall
    JUNE 1, 2013 @ 3:43 PM
    Yes. My doctrine IS right and yours IS wrong. I understand this is a post-modern world, but I will still say that.

    And that is precisely why I will not apologize to you. Your doctrine is nothing but misanthropic swill, and the fact that you feel the need to indoctrinate children with it is evidence enough that you know that it cannot be seen as anything but misanthropic swill by rational adults. You may not be physically abusive as Fred Phelps was, but you are certainly intellectually abusive to the children you want to influence.

    It’s a telling thing that you make a bigger deal out of being a Calvinist than you do about being a Christian.

    Like

  53. JA/SW: In response to your question on Twitter, it’s absolutely not an appropriate title for a children’s book, as it does nothing but marginalize and scapegoat a group of people. Replace Arminians with any other group; Jews, Gays, Handicapped, Black, HIspanic, etc., and there would all sorts of an outcry against it. It’s not about spreading correct doctrine, it’s about spreading hate and bigotry.

    The idea that a young child needs to be taught “correct doctrine” to correct the errors of his friends at an early age generally comes from the type of people that will gladly admit that they love God more than people, Richard Beck nailed that mindset perfectly when he wrote, “When you hear a person say that they love God more than people they are preparing to hurt someone.”

    Like

  57. I tend to recoil from theological debates. I’m still trying to steady my spiritual boat. But, one of the characteristics of an abusive church that I’ve seen on different websites is that it believes it alone holds correct doctrine, and everybody else is wrong.

    It reminds me of what HUG said above about Hyper-Calvinists. Gary says he “leans” toward Calvinism (but doesn’t want to fall over. LOL), and he doesn’t display the same attitude as JD Hall. There seems to be something else at work here.

    Like

  58. Preach it, Eric Fry (4:19 and 4:38)! I’m so sick and tired of this arrogant bull$&*t one behalf of Christians. Any time anyone calls this attitude out for what it is, they are labeled as post modern.

    Why is it so difficult for people to both hold to the truth that there are some right and wrongs in the Bible, namely, who God is and how one is to be saved, and a lot of grey area that has been made more black and white than God intended it to be. His word makes it clear that there is much we can’t understand about Him and even that there is a beauty in the mystery of the gospel.

    When a pastor speaks with the attitude that “I am right and you are wrong” and talks about writing a sermon that will “go right over people’s heads,” his message becomes jibberish to the hearer. Are we so concerned with being “right” that we have forgotten to love those Jesus came to save?

    I am convinced that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and my non-Christian friends and family know it. I don’t shy away from speaking about it when they ask me, but I don’t have to shout at them that they are wrong and tell them condescendingly that they wouldn’t understand what I’m talking about. I try my best to show the truth by how I live, and when necessary, as the saying goes, use words.

    Like

  59. Hmmm, I don’t know, Recovering Pharisee, that all sounds pretty post-modern to me. 😉

    The post-modern epithet is really just condescending BS thrown out when primitives can’t give a rational answer.

    Like

  60. My private Twitter conversation with him was very enlightening. These guys are so predictable. The slamming of women, proclaiming their theology is right and everybody else’s is wrong, the labeling “postmodern,” the assuming, etc. I’ve got a copy of the conversation for further analysis. This pattern keeps repeating itself and I’m going to tear it apart. This behavior he showed is bully behavior which we have seen so many places. Here was the dead giveaway: lack of love and grace. You can be sure that I am not done with this topic.

    Like

  61. I just noticed that the first book was titled, “Help Mom, there are Arminians Under My Bed.”

    It took me a while to realize that, whatever anyone finds offensive — or not — in the title, it is the MOM to whom the child is appealing. Why not the DAD? Isn’t it Fathers who bear ultimate responsibility for the spiritual well-being of the family? So why is MOM being asked for help in fending off the Arminians?

    I’ll tell you why: it’s nothing less than a flat-out rebellion against The Creation Order(TM), and I’m not standing for it, JD Hall!!! I’m reporting you to the Baylys and the Dougs this instant, my friend! What kind of Reformed Baptist are you, anyway???!!!

    Like

  62. Although you are gone now, JD, people began calling on the name of the Lord long before Joel’s prophecy:

    Genesis 4:26
    And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

    Like

  64. Gary, your book titles are fantastic! Ok, if we’re sticking with children’s book titles, how about:
    “Calvin and the Chocolate Factory” (alternatively titled: “Oompa Loompas in the Hands of an Angry God”)
    “The Berenstain Bears and Too Much Freewill”
    “Goodnight, Molinism”
    “(Michael) Horton Hears a Who!”

    Like

  66. Two years ago our children were being indoctrinated on several levels. We used our church’s curriculum for home schooling. They had to abide by the “holiness” dress standards, though they had no personal convictions about this. They had to abide by the dietary “guidelines” of the church.

    Dietary guidelines (which from the quote marks sound like they were absolutely compulsory)? As in Kosher or Halal?

    Like

  67. Eric ^ 😀
    I don’t understand your quip. Please enlighten me, for I am but a mere simpleton. [pounding chest with puzzled look]. I must have an explanation for EVERYTHING. And since I am a woman, I beckon your superior wisdom.

    JA, you have so much energy to keep at this! It exhausts me to even pipe up in these threads, though it is also empowering to be heard, especially by your many male readers who actually get it and value our opinions! If that solidarity is your motivation, ride it out and keep speaking out!

    Like

  68. JD Hall
    JUNE 1, 2013 @ 3:43 PM
    Yes. My doctrine IS right and yours IS wrong. I understand this is a post-modern world, but I will still say that.

    The proper word is IDEOLOGY, Comrade. Not “doctrine”.

    And the proper word is “Counter-Revolutionary Bourgeois Capitalist Running Dog” not “post-modern”.

    Like

  69. Preach it, Eric Fry (4:19 and 4:38)! I’m so sick and tired of this arrogant bull$&*t one behalf of Christians. Any time anyone calls this attitude out for what it is, they are labeled as post modern.

    Don’t know if Julie Anne will let this stay up — especially since I can’t find the music video on YouTube as I don’t know the actual title, just one memorable line:
    “JESUS DIDN’T DIE
    SO YOU COULD BE AN A-HOLE!”

    Like

  70. Ryan M, “Oompa Loompas in the hands of Angry God”! That is freakin hilarious! I remember reading that original sermon of Edwards because it was recommended as a staple for good Calvinists. Even then I inwardly squirmed but digested it like penicillin and convinced myself it was on par with the Bible.

    Then I left SGM and discovered 1 John in my Bible that apparently I previously deemed too grace filled for me to camp out in too long.

    Like

  71. HUG,
    The dietary “guidelines” were kosher and then some. And they were absolutely compulsory. It doesn’t sound so unreasonable at first, until you encounter an enforcement situation. One day four ministers showed up at one of my husband’s jobs, because an employee phoned in a report that another guy was eating a chocolate bar. (I’m not making this up.)

    Like

  72. Recovering Pharisee, my downfall was reading the Book of Matthew and counting how many times Jesus forgave people before they repented or even thought to ask for forgiveness. Shocking!

    Like

  74. BeenThereDoneThat,
    Am I hearing you right, that Calvinists abide by the Leviticus food laws? No bacon? No ham? No lobster? Legalists, while claiming grace. Isn’t that just peechee.

    Like

  75. This has been the most entertaining thread I’ve been on in a long time.

    Is humor biblically acceptable? Or is it just a product of post-modernism?

    Like

  77. Yeah, the Oompa Loompa line is the best! Better than what was preached at the Primitive Baptist Church; “Singers in the hands of an angry God.” Is there anyone else we can skewer? I’m gonna go look in the mirror and see what comes up.

    Like

  80. chapmaned24,
    I’m not really sure what their views were on Calvinism. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to leave that impression.

    But, legalism can result in some really weird stuff.

    Like

  82. Eric said: “Is humor biblically acceptable? Or is it just a product of post-modernism?”

    I think it’s important to notice how he thought the title of his book was humorous. Do you notice the emotional disconnect? He couldn’t get it. Calvinists readers here said they were offended by it (so he can’t blame it on Arminians having the problem – they were of his own ilk). There were Calvinists on Twitter who also said they thought it was inappropriate, but he didn’t see it. We were the problem – we needed to lighten up.

    Where else do we see that similar disconnect? There are other people and blogs that come to mind. We must watch the patterns.

    The obvious sign: NO LOVE! If there is no love, there should be red flags.

    Like

  84. Ed, you’re funny!

    This bacon subject just is absolutely making me drool. I’m so glad our tomatoes grow quickly here. There is nothing like a good BLT with homegrown tomatoes. Yum. I’ll have to take a picture and make you all drool. Oh, and add some avocados and onions. So so good.

    Gary, does your wife like bacon?

    Like

  85. JA, if you ever find yourself in Central Texas, you need to make a stop in Snook, TX at Sodolak’s Cafe for an order of Chicken Fried Bacon.

    Like

  86. What in the world? What’s that, Eric?

    Oh, wait a minute. I’ll be in Dallas at the end of the month. How far away from Dallas are we talking? Sorry, I don’t have Texas cities on a map in my head, shameful, I know.

    Like

  87. It would be about a 3 hour drive from Dallas, which is in North Texas. Quick drive from Austin, about 2-1/2 hours away from me here in Houston. I eat there at least once a year when I go out for wildflower photos

    What are you going to be doing in Dallas?

    Like

  89. Oh, and it’s like Fried Chicken or Chicken Fried Steak, except it’s bacon, which makes it infinitely better than the others

    Like

  90. chapmaned24,
    Would I be pelted with kosher dill pickles? 🙂

    Julie Anne,
    All your Texas readers are going to want to meet up with you. 🙂

    Like

  91. Julie Anne, your bacon mention shows your true colors as a former Portlander 😉 We must connect in person some time when you’re in the area, perhaps over a Voodoo Doughnut with bacon. Oh wait, is that too post modern of me to mention?

    Side note, for any readers who are half disgusted with Christians debating over such ridiculousness, but half actually wondering if there really is a loving God, I happened upon this song. Sara Groves has always ministered to me in her raw, heartfelt style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMKaM1-dPN0.

    Like

  93. Oh wait, now I see that it was Ed who first mentioned bacon. A Seattle-ite. Quirky, PNWers unite!

    Like

  95. I’d make a day trip to Dallas to put a handshake on you, JA.

    BTW, don’t let anyone there fool you with the “Dallas is God’s Country” business. It’s the home and business center of the Devil incarnate…Jerry Jones

    Like

  98. Julie Anne has truly blessed many many people thru her heart felt blog. It was an honor and a privilege to spend some time with her while she was on her trip to Seattle, but sadly, we didn’t have any bacon.

    Like

  100. RP – Funny and true story. The day before my lawsuit story got into the media, I was in Portland for a choir trip (I play piano for the high school choir here). I knew the kids would love some VooDoo doughnuts, so while they were swimming, I was taking their orders. It was actually quite hilarious because some of the names of the doughnuts are inappropriate to say out loud to Mrs. Smith aka Choir Mom. A lot of the kids are Mormons and I had to tell them: “Just say the word. You’re not going to get in trouble. I want to make sure I get your order correct (one name = cock ‘n balls and yes, that’s what it looks like, no joke).” http://voodoodoughnut.com/doughnuts.html

    Anyway, during the process of taking VooDoo Doughnut orders, I dropped my cell phone in the pool. I tried to save it by putting it in rice, didn’t work. So the next day when we were competing at the choir festival, because I had no phone, I got surprised by seeing KATU news standing outside waiting for me to come out of the concert hall. (They had sleuthed around and found Hannah’s # and she told them where I was.) That interview was taken right after the concert with a ton of the high school kids watching and wondering why Mrs. Smith was being interviewed – lol. The report went on the 11 o’clock news and the rest is history – it went crazy viral, over that weekend going all around the world. So there’s my VooDoo/No cell phone/Interview story of how it all began 🙂

    Here’s the interview. You can probably see kids choir kids in the background.

    Eric – My daughter has Nationals for volleyball in Dallas.

    Like

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)