* * *
UPDATE AT BOTTOM OF POST!!****
This morning, I started to add a new comment to the Together for the Gospel statement released on Facebook yesterday and noticed the comment number decreasing. When I refreshed the screen, the whole thing was GONE! Zilch, Nada!
I’d love to be a bug on the wall and see the exchange of e-mails and phone calls this morning after that happened. Maybe something like this:
CJ Defender #1: Hey bro, T4G removed their statement, whatcha going to do now? Are you going to say something publicly? Should we remove our blog articles in support of the statement? I mean, if we keep ours up, that’s confusing, ya know, man? I just don’t know the right thing to do. What does it look like to have our blog articles posted in support of the statement if the T4G statement is gone, ya know?
CJ Defender #2: I know, right? I don’t know, brother, I need to pray about this.
But seriously – what is Denny Burk going to do about this (screen shot taken from his blog in support of the T4G statement)? Read his last statement.
* * *
* * *
So, first I saw removal of comments = silencing dissenters
Then the whole statement was removed = damage control
Those of you who have read here long enough surely recognize those as signs that high-controlling pastors use which sometimes cross into abuse. We as a collective church are asking those collective leaders for accountability and they are saying a collective “NO” to us. That is bold and brazen to do on a public stage. That’s fine with me, because there are many, including me, who will continue to expose this.
I think this is the wheat separating from the chaff right before our eyes. God is cleaning His church. We must not be silent. We must keep pressing in. It’s time to turn over the tables in the complacent Church of Abuse that has continued for far too long.
I’m sure this post will be updated with related blog posts, screen shots, who knows. So be sure to check back to see what is new.
Here is the original statement:
STATEMENT FROM MARK DEVER, LIGON DUNCAN, and ALBERT MOHLERMay 23, 2013We are friends who have been brought together for the gospel. Over the last several months, we have wanted to speak publicly to the issues that have related to our friend C. J. Mahaney. A Maryland judge’s recent action to dismiss a lawsuit against Sovereign Grace Ministries offers us the first opportunity, and responsibility, to speak to this issue. We could not speak to the issues involved so long as they were raised only in the context of an action in the civil courts. We have never made a public comment with regard to claims and counter-claims in a civil lawsuit, and we will not violate that principle now.Claims presented in a civil lawsuit seeking financial compensation are beyond the ability of the public to render judgment. Often, such claims are even beyond the ability of a court to deliberate. To comment on such claims is irresponsible, since no one apart from the court and the parties directly involved has any ability to evaluate the claims presented. If the filing of civil litigation against a Christian ministry or leader is in itself reason for separation and a rush to judgment, no ministry or minister is safe from destruction at any time. Furthermore, the effort to try such a case in the court of public opinion prior to any decision rendered by an authorized court is likewise irresponsible.We have stood beside our friend, C. J. Mahaney, and we can speak to his personal integrity. We can make no judgment as to the truthfulness of the horrifying charges of sexual abuse made against some individuals who have been connected, in some way, to Sovereign Grace Ministries and its churches. Our hearts must go out to anyone, and especially to any child, who suffers abuse at the hand of anyone. In such a case the legal authorities must use the full power of the law to investigate and to prosecute any perpetrator of such crimes. We must take any responsible action to protect the vulnerable, and we must act immediately to inform legal authorities of any charge or claim of sexual abuse, and do so without delay. Our first response must be to call the police, to act to protect the child or young person, and then to proceed to biblical church discipline when the facts demand such a response.If a Christian leader is accused of any wrongdoing, those to whom he is accountable must investigate the charges and then deal responsibly with the evidence. If a criminal accusation is made, Christians have a fundamental duty to inform law enforcement officials. This does not, however, preclude or mitigate the church’s responsibility for biblical church discipline.A Christian leader, charged with any credible, serious, and direct wrongdoing, would usually be well advised to step down from public ministry. No such accusation of direct wrongdoing was ever made against C. J. Mahaney. Instead, he was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals. For this reason, we, along with many others, refused to step away from C. J. in any way. We do not regret that decision. We are profoundly thankful for C. J. as friend, and we are equally thankful for the vast influence for good he has been among so many Gospel-minded people.Our heart goes out to anyone who has ever suffered abuse of any kind. Our emphatic encouragement would be for anyone who has ever suffered such abuse or knows of anyone made vulnerable to such abuse to contact law enforcement officials without delay. We must then allow the law enforcement agencies and the courts to do their proper work. When criminal charges are filed, the public is then presented with evidence upon which it can draw a responsible judgment. On matters of protecting the vulnerable, Christians know what judgment must be made. We side with the victims.Our hope and prayer is that Christ’s healing and health will come to all parties involved in this matter and that justice and righteousness will prevail for all. May every true victim of any injustice be vindicated. May every doer of wrong be exposed. And may all of us speak no further than we can responsibly speak.Those who minister in the name of the Lord Christ bear an inescapable duty to live and to minister in a way that is above reproach. Those who teach, reminds James, will face a stricter judgment. [James 3:1] May everything we do, everything we teach, and all that we are be measured against that standard.
Together for the Gospel,
Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, Albert Mohler
****** Evidently, TG4 removed the statement from their Facebook page and then posted it on their main website. I had been checking the TG4 site several times and it was not there before (when there were 50+ comments on the Facebook page). When they moved it to their site, all of the Facebook comments were entirely scrubbed. Also, please note, they do not allow comments there. (No-Talk Rule)
Bill Kinnon provided two captures with many of the comments from Together for the Gospel Facebook page: here and here.
Related articles:
- From Michael Newnham’s Phoenix Preacher blog: Circling The Wagons For God, the Gospel, and Good Business Excellent!
- Wartburg Watch blog: The Gospel Coalition Shows Disregard for the Pain of Alleged Rape Victim
- D. A. Carson, Justin Taylor, and Kevin DeYoung have issued a statement in support of C. J. Mahaney.
- From Jesus Creed: CJM, TG4G, TGC and Boz Tchividjian
- G.R.A.C.E blog: Where are the voices? The Continued Culture of Silence and Protection in American Evangelicalism
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Hi Julie, I confess I haven’t followed this too much, but I did just notice a statement on the Gospel Coalition site from Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor re: C.J. Mahaney: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2013/05/24/why-we-have-been-silent-about-the-sgm-lawsuit/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+between2worlds+%28Between+Two+Worlds%29&utm_content=FaceBook
I thought you might be interested. I’m confused by all these statements and retraction of statements.
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If it weren’t for the fact that some of you (Thanks Julie Anne and Bill Kinnon) were able to capture the moment for posterity, I would be seriously annoyed right now. Instead, I’m finding this rather amusing. They can run, but they can’t hide.
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Here’s one of my favorite parts of that screen shot: “Instead, he was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by VAST MILLIONS (my emphasis) of American evangelicals.”
How did he come up with that number? They really do think that they’re all that and much more, don’t they?
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Thank you for providing the screen captures! I’m encouraged that many of my friends in the reformed community were appalled by this statement, the timing of it, and deleting of comments. This is not a mere issue of theological differences or “attacking a shepherd.” Child abuse, conspiracy, and protecting abusive people are serious issues and I’m grateful that people across all sorts of beliefs are angry.
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I can hardly keep up with these guys, Steve. I had posted the link to that on the earlier post. You’re right, I should also post it here as well. Gonna do that now before I get distracted with another celebrity leader oopsy daisy move.
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Should have done my homework, Julie Anne =) Sorry about that. Rabbit-trailing here for a minute, I just don’t see why everyone decides to come out with a public statement right now. And why they have to be so looooong 😉
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No biggie, I’m glad you mentioned it because I forgot to link it here. Love the reminders (just as much as I love it when people tell me my typos – lol).
I’m glad they are so long. We’re getting the screen shots. It’s all on public display. I wonder how long before TGC removes theirs? Just when you’re hoping for a slow blog day . . . . . j/k it’s just hard to keep up with them.
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doubleplusungood refs doubleplusuncomments.
doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunstatement.
memhole.
L! L! C! J!
L! L! C! J!
(Humbly, of course)
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The statement by Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor re C.J. Mahaney (linked to above by Liberty For Captives) is a very good example of how language can be used to
(i) conceal violence,
(ii) mitigate perpetrators’ responsibility,
(iii) conceal victims’ resistance, and
(iv) blame or pathologize victims
For those interested in these four operations of language, and how language is often used to cover up and obscure the wicked deeds of violent people, check out this great website by some secular counselors. I particularly recommend the work of Allan Wade at this site: http://responsebasedpractice.com/publications.htm — but only because I have personally met Allan and attended his workshops. The other practitioners there are probably just as good as him.
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I realize the civil suit was dropped due to a technicality (to much time has passed). Did I not read that the criminal suit is still on going? I mean if I were them I wouldn’t comment to fast personally. The criminal suit is still out there some where, and their statements could come back and bite them big time.
What did I miss? I know I must have missed something.
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Thank you, Barbara. The patterns of abuse are clear. Let’s not brush this under the carpet. When people remove people’s voices, that is using their power inappropriately. That is WRONG!
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I grabbed the cache of the page. Its shameful that they deleted it.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwRkjSL6QAR8ODd0V1NFVmpmQ3M/edit?usp=sharing
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Hannah, 9 of the plaintiffs were dismissed from the suit because of Statute of Limitations, leaving 2. There is a glitch with those remaining two because they are from the State of Virginia. Attorney Burke had 10 days to file appeal. I’ve heard reports that she will. Additionally, there are and have been ongoing criminal investigations (which do not have the same Statute of Limitations) rules. Civl/criminal have different rules. See my post earlier this week on Legal Perfect Storm where I discuss this.
They are fools to come out with these statements, but it is actually good because it’s showing the world their true colors. This case is far from over. They just don’t realize it. That’s okay. I hope it bites them in the butt. A bite in the butt is nothing compared to what survivors have gone through and continue to go through as they get another slam by watching these fools behave like this. Can you imagine?
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Great, Hannah. Thanks. They forget about that cyber footprint that cannot be cleaned up.
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As if their statements weren’t bad enough ~ now the deleting of dissenting and outraged comments. I’m so disgusted right now.
Thank goodness for screens shots! You gotta be fast with these fellas!!!
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Monique – Hit “refresh” and read the post again. I just added an update. T4G removed the Facebook statement and posted it at their main website and they do not allow comments. So, all of the FB comments are gone except for the screenshots. I am pretty sure there were over 100.
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Just a recap of what’s happened in the past 2 hours:
“For those of you who missed the Together for the Gospel Facebook post where Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan and Al Mohler trumpeted their support for C.J. Mahaney — along with 115 mostly hostile comments before they were deleted — Bill Kinnon did a screen capture and posted a link here.
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s2/sh/e3623beb-3591-4ba2-a332-30f2e94bb79c/48ade443a4715458c112553f82acf8c9
(You can view this even if you don’t have Facebook. What a PR disaster for Together for the Gospel and these men.)”
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Thanks Julie ~ not surprised they’re not allowing comments…typical and so cowardly. I feel especially heavy hearted for the victims with this re-victimizing. But it was encouraging to see all the negative comments come so fast. There looks to be more folks out there that know whats going on and are just as disgusted.
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I agree Anon10:08 A complete PR disaster. And makes them look quite foolish too I might add. Does anyone know if you have to be friended by T4G FB page to post a comment there? Or can anyone post? If the former, I think they may purge their friend list, if the latter, they may stop posting important things on FB. Lol….
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I wonder how many they would have gotten if they would have left it up. They posted the thing late last night and then removed it in the morning. Many could have missed it entirely.
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They are true cowards. Piper deletes – now they delete. They only recognize the ‘amen’ group. They just keep digging their hole.
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Seth, I think anyone can post on the FB page. Not positive. Give it a try.
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Well done, Hannah
Can you email me privately and tell me how you do that (grab a google cache of a deleted page). Thanks sister!
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In their defensive statement regarding their silence on the SGM lawsuit, linked to above by Liberty for Captives, Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung and Justin Taylor assert, “As to the specific matter of C. J. [Mahaney] participating in some massive cover-up, the LEGAL EVIDENCE WAS SO PALTRY (more like non-existent) that the judge did not think a trial was even warranted.” (Emphasis added.) If the judge made any such determination of fact, this is not what is being reported. Based on the information I have seen, the judge merely found that the statute of limitations bars most claims, and the existence of a conspiracy or coverup, even if proved at trial, would not be sufficient, as a matter of LAW, to toll or delay the running of the statute of limitations—as can be the case in some circumstances in the state where I practice law. Inasmuch as they admit they have not seen the dismissal order, it appears that Carson, DeYoung and Taylor are not being entirely candid when they attempt to assert, as established fact, that the dismissal was somehow based on insufficient evidence, as opposed to the technicalities of the statute of limitations.
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Fwiw, here’s a good portion of Boz Tchividjian’s worthy facebook comment below Dever, Duncan, Mohler’s Statement (saved by Kinnon).
“Why is no mention made that the heart of this lawsuit is about a systematic church effort to discourage and eventually prevent the families of children who were allegedly (and repeatedly) sexually victimized by church officials from speaking out and reporting to law enforcement. This lawsuit is less about the abuse and more about an institution that took steps to protect itself and it’s reputation over the victimized souls (and bodies) of little ones. Omitting such a fundamental fact from this statement is a fundamental error.
“Why no mention that CJ Mahaney was actually the Senior Pastor at one of these churches where all of this horrific abuse allegedly occurred AND that discouraged these families from bringing this matter to the God ordained civil authorities? Omitting such a fundamentally important fact from this statement is a fundamental error.
“This lawsuit was dismissed for one reason and one reason only…expiration of the statute of limitation. Isn’t it tragic that the reason why this suit was dismissed – taking too long to file – was the very objective of these church leaders when they discouraged these precious souls from stepping forward.
. . . .
“What these men don’t realize is that their silence is pushing a large group of precious souls farther and farther from the Church…and our glorious and gracious God. [sigh]”
Boz Tchividjian, J.D.
Executive Director, GRACE
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This full comment by Boz is on a screen shot on the previous post, too.
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They don’t care what we think of them because the only people whose opinions matter are their own and they have witnessed that they can say or do anything and continue to gain the approval of the others.
I sincerely hope the rest of the world has seen enough.
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JulieAnne, you need a night crew to catch any future damage control by the SGM guardians of the narrative.
Thanks to all who saved those many dissenting comments that were deleted.
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Opinemine, this is exactly what we’ve seen in other traditions where the pastor/leaders are without real accountability. They can lord their power and control over others and ignore the push backs. The revolving door and fat pay checks solve that problem.
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They are true cowards. Piper deletes – now they delete.
Russian bureaucratic tradition — “If nothing is ever written down, It Didn’t Happen.”
(Just the opposite of German bureaucratic tradition’s “Document Everything.” It’s a major reason why Hitler’s atrocities are so well-known and Stalin’s are completely ignored.)
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Some of you read entire articles. In NO way have any of the men being excoriated for not acting the say you want them to condoned any kind of abuse, in face they have condemned it, as I do also. BTW the way, I just retrieved the statement that some have said was removed intentionally FROM the T4G website.
From the Don Carson, Devin DeYoung, Justin Taylor article:
“We are not in a place to adjudicate all the charges leveled against Sovereign Grace Ministries or the specific individuals named in the lawsuit. The purpose of this statement is not to render a verdict on the charges, nor in any way to trivialize the sins alleged. We realize some will construe this post as confirmation of their worst suspicions, but we trust most of our brothers and sisters will be able to consider our explanation with an open heart and a fair mind. Our silence was not decided upon lightly; neither was our decision to break this silence. Our prayer is that one day—and please, Lord, soon—all who face injustice of any kind will see the Lord bring forth his righteousness as the light, and his justice as the noonday (Ps. 37:6).”
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Hi Born4Battle,
I think you may have misunderstood the post above. The statement was originally posted on the T4G Facebook page. It was removed due to the large number of negative comments on that site. It was then reposted on the the T4G website with comments disabled. Just clarification.
Also, I’m not sure anyone is accusing the T4G folks of condoning abuse directly. What folks have found troubling is a statement of support for C.J. Mahaney when he is accused of covering-up abuse and while a criminal investigation is ongoing. That feels like a slap-in-the-face to numerous victims. Shepherds must choose between protecting their sheep or closing ranks to protect a public figure in the midst of an ongoing scandal. A lot of folks see the T4G statement as the latter. Can you understand why a lot of people see it that way? The original FB post drew almost 100% ire from even supporters of T4G, hence it is hard to understand why it was re-posted in another venue which disallows comments.
Anyway, just trying to clarify why folks are so upset.
Blessings, Steve
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I didn’t see anything ‘protecting’ going on in either article I mentioned. Personally, I probably also reposted the letter. I don’t have any problem either with not allowing comments, if they are mostly full of judgment and ‘ire’. No one is defending any sort of abuse, but rather refraining from standing in judgment, while honestlyt presenting their reasons for remaining quiet in the midst of the ‘feeding frenzy’.
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Personally, I probably would have also reposted the letter.
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Born4Battle writes, “I don’t have any problem either with not allowing comments, if they are mostly full of judgment and ‘ire’.”
I’m up to my eyeballs in work. . so if I may share my own thoughts concerning “not allowing comments” by cut-n-pasting a repost from my May 24 rant on this from PxP
http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=2397#comment-22635
You know, in any healthy relationship there needs to be open, honest, loving communication. In other words—accountability, transparency and understanding.
This is how trust and authority (i.e., the power to persuade) develops—through gracious dialogue, so that church cultures, for instance, are truly Spirit-led as they corporately deliberate and discern the will and ways of God for their lives, for their church.
Every minister of Christ worthy of his/her salt should pray as with the heart of David: “Let a righteous man strike me—it is a kindness; let him rebuke me—it is oil for my head; let my head not refuse it.”
When I’ve been out-of-line I’ve been tremendously blessed to have righteous, loving friends in my life to tell me so. Every time I want to kiss them all over with gratitude for reminding me of the standard I’ve been called to live up to.
As teachers, every challenge is an opportunity to learn, to teach and ultimately to share discernments.
As truly wise fathers possess the faith to consider that their beloved children just might possess a keener gift of discernment than they (( for what godly father wouldn’t want his children to be wiser than he? )) so too may wise ministers have enough understanding to know that others may possibly possess a wiser perspective on particular matters than they.
So we listen, so we know how to respond and be corporately edified.
Seems, however, these men in closing down the comments, neither want to listen, nor respond—for if you don’t listen, you don’t have anything to respond to.
Also, and I’ll end my own rant [inspired by ja’s rant above] with this: Sometimes just being given a voice to express one’s anger and frustration, tends to defuse the frustration and helps make sense of the anger. Allowing the facebook comments to roll would have been tremendously healthy and healing, imo
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Exactly how is it that you can see into the hearts of other men? I thought that was God’s territory. I believe He is more than capable of sorting all of this out, bring justice where justice is due, according to His perfect will. It might not look like what we think it should. Shall we them find fault with God? In the meantime, the enemy of our souls laughs ata professing believers acting like his minions.
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B4B,
look dude, why are you assuming that i “can see into the hearts of other men?”
thing is, i can’t. and that’s why i’m advocating for open dialogue. . to give everyone an opportunity to speak from out of the abundance of their own broken hearts into communities that usually knows how to minister to their own. . know from experience and can understand “ire” and brokenness. . can corporately correct mistakes and misunderstandings. . apply balm and so forth. . but we need cultures of open communication. . we have the technology for it now too
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David/Monax,
Control freaks don’t like open dialogue. It’s my way or the highway.
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reminds me of the “open dialogue” CON gave us with his fake bgbc survivor blog
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I think he published a couple of Alex’s comments. But there’s really no audience there.
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Monax,
“Seems, however, these men in closing down the comments, neither want to listen, nor respond—for if you don’t listen, you don’t have anything to respond to.”
Your comment. Saying someone doesn’t want to do something/anything is peering into one’s heart and claiming to know their desires. You don’t really, and neither do I. Maybe you ‘miswrote’ (kinda like ‘misspeaking’)?
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B4B,
maybe you misread. . failed to parce my words appropriately
you’ll see I qualified my assumption with the word “Seems. . .”
this is the impression and appearance i am left with
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Actually, I didn’t fail to parse (not parce)your words properly. I saw that ‘seems’ and figured you would respond as you have. You see, whether you said ‘seems’ or a more judgmental term, you still had to make your statement based on what you think is in another man’s heart, do you not?
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Monax,
Having been privileged to get to know you somewhat, and having observed as you have ministered to others here, please forgive my audacity in undertaking to judge your heart. You possess the heart of Jesus. Jesus expresses His heart through you. When you defend and comfort and encourage those here who have experience the unspeakable, you minister to “the least of these.” Therefore, you minister to Jesus Himself.
I dare say all of us, including Born4Battle, can profit from your example.
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monax
It has been my priviledge to go into battle with you.
To battle these “Pastors who Abuse.”
To battle these “Pastors who are addicted to “Exercising Authority.”
To battle these pastors have wounded so many un-supecting sheep.
It has also been my priviledge to go into battle with you – When we dis-agree.
When we battle one anothers thoughts and ideas, as we search for “Truth” – Jesus.
And I echo Gary W when he says…
“please forgive my audacity in undertaking to judge your heart. You possess the heart of Jesus. Jesus expresses His heart through you. When you defend and comfort and encourage those here who have experience the unspeakable, you minister to “the least of these.”
And I have to admit – I have profited from your example — Thank you Jesus..l
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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Monax (David),
Me, well, I am still trying to engage with you in a battle. You make religious statements that I do not agree with, and I would love to debate, but you end it before the debate can begin. You refuse to engage. JA hooked us up long ago about a certain topic that you never got back to me with, and you are the one who challenged a debate with ANYONE who disagreed. Well, I stepped forward, and you never got back to me. And now you won’t engage in a second disagreement. I am not a Calvinist, therefore I debate against Calvinism. If I believed in any of Calvin’s teachings, I would be a Calvinist. I study before I debate, which means that I already know before I bring it to the table. I would love to battle you. If you are going to challenge, then please finish.
Respectfully,
Ed
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Thank you, Born4Battle, for correcting my spelling. I’m also thankful for my spell-check, `cause I’m not the best speller.
I think, B4B, that you misunderstand my position. And if I, personally, would make a judgement in the form of an opinion concerning these men—my criticism has only to do with them taking down their facebook statement and removing all the comments, and then reposting the statement on a site that doesn’t allow for conversation. That’s it. I charge nothing against these men. Not even against C. J. In fact, this week I’m reading Dever—and I believe the man has the best approach to ecclesiology. Yesterday I was reading Mohler and appreciate how these men were instrumental in reviving the SBC. This is not my battle as it is others. My effort here and clarion call is for a church culture of accountability, transparency, and open communication. . these are the issues my comments are pushing.
Gary W and Amos, my friends and brother-in-arms, thank you for your encouragement. It means the world to me.
Ed, my friend and brother, I love you much and would enjoy spending an hour with you on the phone sometime soon. . can we arrange that? I think we can interface best that way. {{ Amos and Gary, that goes for you too—I would sincerely love to spend some time with you men on the phone (weekends are best for me) }}
Chapman—you also make religious statements that I find to be unbiblical. And yes, last year we went back in forth via emails regarding the issue of the Pre-Trib rapture until, from my perspective, we reached an impasse. We have two very different approaches to reading Scriptures, so much so, that our perspectives don’t have enough in common to properly ground a debate upon.
Again, for the second challenge—as I told you here (on May 22) when we reached our impasse, If you can find someone else that reads these Scriptures as you do—then I’ll engage the two of you.
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Monax,
The only thing that went back and forth from me in emails last year was “Well, when ya gonna start?” I quote scripture, so I don’t see how it is unbiblical. How is that an impasse when we never even got started? There never was a beginning to begin with. Now, I am sorry that my debate style is a problem for you. I never knew that there had to be rules for our debate that I have to agree with before you begin. I have found someone else for the second debate…The Word of God is my witness…Jesus. In other words…it’s in writing. I don’t need to follow your rules to debate. As a matter of fact, I refuse to follow your rules for debate. Either you debate or you don’t. And you don’t debate unless you get to make the call. Sorry, I don’t go by rules…not yours or anyones. I use scripture, not opinion of dead teachers.
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Last word from this old guy. I find the judgmental feeding frenzy on the part of professing believers in this entire issue appalling on several levels I will not go into. I am not a conspiracy theorist. Like the men at T4G and TGC, I pray that justice will prevail. They did express that sentiment and I’ll take them at their word and make no personal conclusions in this matter. There are battles to fight of greater import than this one. 🙂
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I don’t know, Born4Battle. Seems that Jesus was pretty concerned about little ones. Remember that millstone verse?
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Born4Battle
You write…
“I find the judgmental feeding frenzy on the part of professing believers
in this entire issue appalling on several levels I will not go into.”
Was wondring…
Aren’t you being “Judgemental?”
Towards this article? Towards professing believers who comment here?
Judgemental – Having or displaying an excessively critical point of view.
Ps 138:6
Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
but the proud he knoweth afar off.
Ps 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
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Of course I do and rest assured I am very concerned about all ‘little ones’. My only objection is to the judgmental ‘feeding frenzy’ by professing believers that seems to be more about frying everyone they have concluded are already guilty, and not let due process run it’s course. We ought to be spending more time in the prayer closet than on our little ‘soap boxes’. I pray that everyone who is truly guilty is found so and appropriately punished and there is healing for any victims. How does not broadcasting oll of our opinions and judgments somehow betray a lack of concern for victims? You need to answer that. How does our ‘ranting’ in the blogosphere serve to really obtain justice for victims? In you think NOT ranting all over the internet about the SGM somehow betrays lack of concern for victims, you are calling me and the men at both T4G and TGC liars. After all they expressed great concern for victims – at least their words did. The better part of Christian wisdom should dictate we calm down a bit and quit airing our dirty laundry in front of an unbelieving world in bondage to sin and that hates God to whom our main mission is to share Christ, not demonstrate how much like them we are with all our ‘ranting’.
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Born4Battle
Julie Anne wrote @ MAY 28, 2013 @ 12:58 PM…
“Control freaks don’t like open dialogue. It’s my way or the highway.”
Do you think this is an accurate statement?
That has been my experience when commenting on The Gospel Coalition main Blog. And most of the other Bloggers at TGC. Justin Taylor, Ray Ortland, Thabiti Anyabwile, Jared Wilson.
When you dis-agree with their writings… Give them a different point of view… When you challenge their “Doctrines of Men” “Traditions of Men” that Make Void the Word of God…When you challenge their – Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Reputation… When you ask questions about their many “Titles/Positions” that are NOT in the Bible…
They refuse to answer the questions…
But – They will Delete you… Remove your comment… And then they Ban you…
Seems Julie Anne is correct – Her “Creepo Meter” is working just fine.
“Control freaks don’t like open dialogue. It’s my way or the highway.”
Mat 23:3
… but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
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Born4Battle, I’ve been watching their words. They say very little about the victims. Why? Because their buddy is involved – the same buddy who endorses their books and speaks at their conference.
I know what their pet topics are. Victims get very little air time. They are more concerned about gays in the boy scouts and that men be “godly men.” Just start following them on Twitter and you will see what I mean.
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Born4Battle
You write…
“After all they expressed great concern for victims – at least their words did.”
Now – that sounds like discernment to me… 😉
Mat 23:2-3
The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat…
…But do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Seems the only ones Jesus gave a hard time to were “The Religious Leaders.”
And these guys want to be known – Celebrity – And known as “Church Leaders.”
And – If we’re Spiritual – We are to “Judge” ALL things. And “Prove” ALL things. Yes?
————
1Cor 2:15
But he that is spiritual *judgeth* all things,
Judgeth – In Strongs #350 anakrino…
scrutiniuze, investigate, interrogate, determine, ask, question, discern, examine, search.
In the KJV – examine 6, judge 6, ask question 2, search 1, discern 1; 16
Thayers has #350 – anakrino as…
1) examine or judge
1a) to investigate, examine, enquire into, scrutinise, sift, question
————–
1Thes 5:21
*Prove* all things; hold fast that which is good.
Prove – In Strongs #1381 dokimazo…
to approve, allow, discern, examine, (ap-)prove, try.
KJV – prove 10, try 4, approve 3, discern 2, allow 2, like 1, examine 1; 23
Thayers has #350 – anakrino as…
1) to test, examine, prove, (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy.
————
Looks to me like the folks here are doing what The Bible asks believers to do.
Judge ALL things – Prove ALL things.
I’ve been discering, proving, judging, these guys for 3-4 years now…
And – IMO – These guys from TGC and T4G miss it in many, many areas…
And – Are “Spiritually Abusive” in many, many, area’s.
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Born4Battle,
You say, “I am very concerned about all ‘little ones’.” Frankly, I don’t care whether you and the men you are defending are “very concerned” about victims of clergy sexual abuse, the starving, the naked, the imprisoned, the oppressed, or anybody else. I want to see actual, hands on, on the ground action to relieve the suffering–suffering that is all to often simply devastating. If you and they cannot show actual fruit of repentance, I really don’t care about your words or theirs. If your gospel does not translate into changed hearts, evidenced by actual action (and not just fancy words), your gospel is hollow. It is a chasing after the wind. It is clouds without rain.
If you can show me anything actual, tangible, substantial and meaningful your heroes at T4G and TGC are doing to minister healing and restitution to the Plaintiffs in the SGM lawsuit, I will count it a privileged to call them my brothers. In the meantime, I am quite frankly embarrassed to have to admit that I was, until recently, associated with their brand of empty, hypocritical evangelicalism.
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So Gary…
Quit beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel… 😉 😉 😉
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Julie,
Are we reading the same statements? Although the main topic of both seems to have been that they were not going to throw C.J. Mahaney under the bus (as a lot of ‘Christians’ would like them to do) both expressed sincere concern for victims of these or any similar abuses. How much would have been enough, according to you? All you say is they didn’t say enough. Personally, those statements demonstrate far more biblical concern, scriptural basis, and biblical wisdom than a whole bunch of overly judgmental professing Christians. Nuff said.
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Born4Battle,
What does it take to make you understand empty words and well-measured expressions of concern, all without actual action, just do not cut it. The world is watching. This is life and death stuff. Speech without action is hypocrisy, hypocrisy that is driving multitudes out of the loving arms of our loving Jesus. Please, join the call to action. Then find some way to actually join in. Maybe you, and the men you defend, could start by contributing money to ministries that effectively focus on bringing healing and restitution to victims of clergy sexual abuse. To the Abyss with all the empty words!
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Born4Battle – – check out the new blog post I put up. Maybe it will be more clear.
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Born4Battle: Have you heard of “the buck stops here?” CJ was at the helm of the ship. Under his watch, 25 churches have left (approximately 25%). He himself has admitted to blackmailing the former co-founder, Larry T. There have already been 3 sex abuse convictions under his leadership. At a very minimum, he needs to step aside from speaking at conferences. I also think he should step down as pastor. Even in secular organizations, leaders remove themselves or are forced to go on “administrative leave” when a subordinate messes up. It’s about the witness for Christ. There are countless pastors who say his pride and abusive methods are harming the body of Christ. How many more witnesses do we need?
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So, where is Born4Battle? He comes in here, giving himself a a proud name, advertising himself as a fighter. Then, when he experiences pushback, when he gets called for defending the indefensible, he turns tail and runs? Please tell me he has not permanently absented himself! After all, we’ve now been waiting less than 24 hours for the courtesy of some answers.
So, Born4Battle, if you truly are more attack dog than chihuahua, please tell us: How is it you defend all this fine speech by your heroes of the faith, all this saying of the right things without any indication of their so much as lifting a finger to minister healing and restitution in the face of multiple witness alleging childhood molestation, even rape, by “leaders” in their churches–with nobody to come to their aid? Am I missing something? If so, I am willing to be shown.
What do you, personally, propose to do? I mean beyond barking and yapping.
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Gary W
Seems, Born4Battle, has much in common with those he defends…
When the YRR, TGC, T4G, guys do NOT like the way the conversation is going…
They ignore you – They delete you – They ban you.
Seems, Born4Battle, is also mis-informed, in many other areas…
On his blog today – he writes about the article from Tim Challies…
“Thinking Biblically About C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries”
And his first line states – Tim Challies is an outsider. Huh???
“The following article was written by Tim Challies,
an outsider to the issues surrounding Sovereign Grace Ministries.”
If anyone is interested – Here is Brent Detwiler who is NOT an outsider…
Someone who knows C.J. Manhaney for many years – about the Challis article.
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2013/3/2/tim-challies-on-thinking-biblically-about-cj-mahaney-and-sgm.html
Born4Battle – You might want to check both sides – Before taking sides…
And passing judgment on folks who have been “Abused” by these scalawags who have deceived many into thinking they are “Qualified” pastor/leader/overseers.
When you believe the lie you start to die…
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Wow, good sleuthing Amos. Are you for hire?
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Julie Anne
Yes – And I do windows also. 😉
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Amos,
Well, well, unless I am missing something, Born4Battle allows no comments, no opposing views, on his blog. He defends from behind strong castle walls, risking little, appearing to fear the battle to which he claims to be born. It is surprising he risked his quick, short and apparently abandoned sortie here. Perhaps he was taken aback that there are those here who will defend the victims of neglectful, abusive, ecclesiastical “authorities.” How else to explain his seeming to have turned tail and run–other than that he has been called out and has no good and legitimate answers.
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Gary W
I did leave a comment awhile ago – The Brent Detwiler article…
It is still in moderation… 😉
If you want to leave a comment click under Title of the article.
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Oh, isn’t that funny? He engages with me, a woman, on my blog that allows dissenting comments and he, the man, doesn’t allow comments? hahaha
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Oh, I see. Stuck in moderation? The question is how long?
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Amos,
Well, I missed it. Even after you explained how to leave a comment, I had to squint and study the dimmed-out small print before I could see the link. No open gates in this castle for any free exchange of ideas. One must hunt and search for a well camouflaged postern entrance, only to find one’s self in a well guarded and fortified room, hoping upon hope to be the beneficiary of the Lordly Lord’s special condescension, that they might present their humble petitions. No challenges, disagreements or alternative points of view allowed!
The fact that these people must so rigorously control all speech, whenever and wherever it is in their power to do so, is telling proof of the weakness of their position.
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Gary W. – Your lingo is giving you away. Your command of the English language makes me smile.
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Thanks, JA!
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Julie Anne asks A Amos Love:
“Wow, good sleuthing Amos. Are you for hire?”
A Amos Love responds:
“Yes – And I do windows also. ;-)”
Ed Chapman adds:
That’s only because A Amos Love leaves his fingerprints on the windows while sluethings…lol. Gotta get some gloves…hehehe.
Ed
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Ed, you are too funny.
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A bit of information that will probably not change the appalling judgmentalism glaringly apparent here, but that will probably mot make a dent.
Gary, Saying that I don’t allow comments on my blog before allowing time for me to notice a comment needs moderation and responding is well, not overly intelligent. However, it does show however the mind/heart condition of the ‘accuser’. I also don’t live in front of my computer screen.
A. Amos, your accusations are equally to Gary’s lacking in the intelligent thought department.
Julie Anne, ditto for jumping on the let’s go after B4B bandwagon.
It would do one well to actually poke around a bit at my blog to find out WHY I title it and myself as I do before making even more uniformed judgments. I have not abandoned anything except ‘vain disputations’. I’ve been observing to see what new judgments are being made and who else will be thrown under the bus by professing Christians. Or have I been wrong about that and you aren’t badly behaving believers, but self deceived ones whose profession lacks possession.
Saying that words expressed concern for victims is merely reading and understanding their definitions.
Thanks for the misapplication of ‘prove all things’. A good topic for another “Eisegesis Unplugged” piece. The entire thought includes both v 20 & 21:
1Th 5:20 Do not despise prophecies,
1Th 5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.
Men added the chapter and verse numbering. Note the comma at the end of v 20 and the lower case ‘b’ut beginning v 21. They are both important and reveal that the test and proving pertains to spiritual matters/teachings. It’s a bit like the Berean principle.
Also, Tim Challies defined what he meant by an ‘outsider’. Definitions are important and his added clarity for the ‘discerning’ reader. It was clear and indeed added an ‘outsider’s’ perspective, one not directly connected to the situation.
And BTW, would one of you like to comment on the passages of scripture Tim Challies used to encourage caution in how Christians handle this situation? Hmmmm? I noticed that glaringly missing from your critique of the article.
I am always available for intelligent discussion, but I maintain the right to deny/delete stupid stuff.
See ya’ll later. It’s date night with my sweetie!
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Born4Battle,
I apologize for jumping to conclusions about allowing comments on your blog without checking. I admit that I didn’t even know that you had a blog until it was brought up here. Anyway, that was wrong of me.
I am glad to know that you do allow conversing. Many don’t and that is a concern to me.
~ja
PS hope you have fun with your “sweetie”
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Born4Battle,
Thank you for returning. Frankly, in view of the conduct of others who have come here to dump and dash, I’m more than a little surprised. You receive 1 merit point from me. However, please bear with me while I assess a number of demerits.
At 11:58 on 5/28 you charge Monax for supposedly having claimed to be able to see into the hearts of other men, and you went on to state that you thought that was God’s territory. Now, however, you glom onto a single point (among many unanswered points) where you think you can put me in a bad light, and on that basis claim to discern the mind/heart of the ‘accuser.’ Did you put the word accuser in quotes by way of intimating that you associate me with the Accuser, Satan. Probably not, but you still get one demerit for being guilty of the very thing for which you took Monax to task.
You take us to task for “the appalling judgmentalism glaringly apparent here.” Then you characterize me as being “not overly intelligent.” You say Amos is “equally to [me] lacking in the intelligent thought department.” And ditto to Julie Anne. We are guilty of making uninformed judgments for having not studied your website before responding to you according to your self-presentation here. (Any chance you can see the tacit admission you make concerning your conduct here?) You accuse us of “vain disputations” and of throwing people under the bus. You say we are badly behaving believers. You suggest that we are self deceived ones whose profession lacks possession. Sir, you can accuse us of judgmentalism, but given the nasty nature of the accusations you yourself catapult our way, I cast this, your own aspersion, back in your face: Perhaps it is you who are self deceived, having profession lacking possession. I actually pray that it might not be. It is your praxis I judge to be deficient—not you as a person. Still, another demerit.
This, too, I note: You banter with words, and you engage the debate, and you twist Scripture into a self-serving form (claiming that παντὸς, all, somehow means only προφητείας, prophesies)— all the while failing to address the manifest failure of your heroes of the faith to come to the aid of those who inform us that they have subjected to devastation beyond description at the hands of people in places of ecclesiastical authority. No sir, I do not judge the men you would defend, I do not judge them or you as a persons. I judge their and your failure to see that true religion calls for actual action—action apart from which each of us risks being consigned to the destiny of the goats.
Six more demerits.
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Gary,
I would like to add to your comment…but not necessarily to Born4Battle, as I was never a part of that conversation.
Not long ago, my daughter and I got into it big time. I caught her in lies, and called her out on it. She kept throwing that “stop judging me” routine to her.
So, she’s a liar who doesn’t like to be called and judged a liar. I found that funny, to say the least.
So, I quoted her the words of Martin Luther King Jr., in which he had stated that he hopes there comes a day where people are not judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
People often say that they are a good judge of character. We do judge.
I told her that I am judging her character, and that there is nothing wrong with judging. She then proceeded to tell me that she didn’t want to hear my lectures.
Bottom line, there is nothing wrong with judging people. But people seem to sure get on the defense when they are judged, don’t they?
Ed
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Ed,
You’re right. we judge all the time. I agree that we must judge, even that we are called upon to judge. Yet there is this: “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” (Matthew 7:1-2, KJV) It isn’t something I have studied, but my view is that we are to judge in the sense of discerning or testing, while we are to avoid judging in the sense of condemning or wishing ill on somebody. The reality, alas, is that whenever we call somebody to account on the basis of legitimate discernment, there is a very good chance that they will have an actual, subjective sense of having been condemned. I think this is because so much of how we feel about ourselves is wrapped up in all the ways we seek approval based on our actions, and even on our professing.
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Does this poem remind y’all of anyone?
Know it All. by Marie Scott
I ran into a ‘Know It All’ the other day,
He didn’t listen to a word I had to say.
My point of view was completely dismissed
I wondered why in the world is this guy so pissed.
He hammered away at his point of view,
that I wondered where was
his pulpit, and where was my pew.
By the time He finished with all He had to say,
my only hope was how quick I could get away.
Lecturing me as a biblical Know It All,
seemed to be his self righteous call.
Insults and accusations flew from his lips
he didn’t hold back, he let it rip.
He insisted his words were out of love
but it felt to me like push & shove.
Shoving his opinion down my throat
He was right, I was wrong, was his subtle gloat.
Whoa- Do we care as believers how we impact others,
I was this guy’s sister in Christ and he was my brother…
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Gary, When comments defy the laws of common logic, there is an exhibition of less than stellar intelligence. That’s not an accusation, it’s just the way it is. I can read words, they say what they say. they telegraph certain things, like needing to see into another’s heart. I make no such claims, I really don’t know why there is such a judgmental feeding frenzy going on with this issue, but it would take a blind man to miss it. I might have been a little over the top in my aggravation, but what’s out is out and I am still aggravated at the behavior of professing Christians who behave like the world.
BTW, I commend you for your comments concerning judging, and your ‘discernment’ might be spot on. I just think there is sufficient advice and counsel in scripture to warrant caution in how we express our concerns. I think the scripture references provided by both insiders and the outsider who explained their caution were spot on and I must accept that they were sincere for right now. Would you like to comment on my suggesting misapplying the last half of a passage in Thess? I would love to discuss the specific scripture passages involved in the debate and proper Christian behavior in these sorts of circumstances, including your interesting interpretation of Matthew 7:1-2. Allow me to offer John Gill’s commentary on Judge, not, lest ye be judged:
.
“Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. This is not to be understood of any sort of judgment; not of judgment in the civil courts of judicature, by proper magistrates, which ought to be made and pass, according to the nature of the case; nor of judgment in the churches of Christ, where offenders are to be called to an account, examined, tried, and dealt with according to the rules of the Gospel; nor of every private judgment, which one man may make upon another, without any detriment to him; but of rash judgment, interpreting men’s words and deeds to the worst sense, and censuring them in a very severe manner; even passing sentence on them, with respect to their eternal state and condition. Good is the advice given by the famous Hillell (u), who lived a little before Christ’s time;
“Do not judge thy neighbour, (says he,) until thou comest into his place.”
It would be well, if persons subject to a censorious spirit, would put themselves in the case and circumstances the persons are in they judge; and then consider, what judgment they would choose others should pass on them. The argument Christ uses to dissuade from this evil, which the Jews were very prone to, is, “that ye be not judged”; meaning, either by men, for such censorious persons rarely have the good will of their fellow creatures, but are commonly repaid in the same way; or else by God, which will be the most awful and tremendous: for such persons take upon them the place of God, usurp his prerogative, as if they knew the hearts and states of men; and therefore will have judgment without mercy at the hands of God.”
Other fine commentaries say the same thing concerning the passage. It’s not about testing or discerning, but censorious judgment. A study of the Greek will bear that out.
Best regards,
Dan Cartwright (my real name)
You can find out a bit more about me by reading “A soldier’s calling’ and “About the Battle Cry” at my blog.
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Julie Anne,
We saw a pretty good movie just released called “Now You See Me”. We have been married for nearly 38 years and we have a Friday night is date night tradition going that keeps us young. I appreciate your apology, I really do. As for this whole discussion, I will refrain from personal kinds of comments and try and stick to just examining scripture to see what it hast to say about our conduct as believers. That is where I would really like to go. I have disallowed some first time comments (I set it up to always need to moderate first timers), but it is rare.
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Good for you for the investment in your marriage. I have my blog set up for moderation of first-timers, too. That has worked out well.
So what do you think of Tom’s comment I posted? Do you agree with him or not?
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Julie Anne, I agree with a lot of Tom’s comment, but I also can understand situations where responses ought to be disallowed. I don’t think all instances of ‘no responses’, please are wrong.
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Well, I think I am caught up on addressing comments I needed to respond to.
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I have a problem with allowing comments, and then removing them entirely. That was wrong, IMHO.
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Dan/Born4Battle,
Let me attempt to run with something you present, specifically John Gill quoting one of the Hillel’s: “Do not judge thy neighbour, (says he,) until thou comest into his place.” Good. Now, if you will, then, try placing yourself in the place of a father whose little girl was molested, nay, subjected to full-penetration rape some 30 or more years ago. Imagine, if you can, imagine that your little girl, while in preschool, was molested at her school over a period of many months. Imagine further that none of this came to your attention, that your little girl was threatened into silence, until the actual rape occurred. But don’t stop there. Imagine further that the perpetrator was himself a policemen assigned to protect the students at your little girl’s school.
Imagine that you, of course, report the matter to . . . . yes, the police. Suppose further that the police resolve to protect their own. They do not investigate, they do not interrogate, they do not prosecute their fellow policeman. No, no. Instead, they interrogate your 4 year old daughter. They bring the offending officer into the interrogation room, with you present, and with hidden cameras rolling. They compel your little girl to apologize to her rapist. You are stunned into speechlessness. The video of the apology, along with your failure to speak, are used to internally exonerate your little girl’s rapist. You are threatened with legal action if you should pursue the matter further.
You go to the prosecutor’s office. Your little girl is not believed. She is accused of making it all up. After all, there is the video of her apology and your silence. You are threatened with legal action should you pursue the matter further. Nobody tells you that your little girl is but one of many victims. Nobody, absolutely nobody, will take up your little girl’s cause.
Your little girl is emotionally and developmentally devastated by her trauma. Some 30 years later she finally finds the strength and courage to allow a true hero, a lawyer actually, to take up her cause, without charge.
Except that the statutes of limitations have all run. The rapist escapes even civil consequences. The chief of police escapes all accountability, as does the police department, the city, the prosecutor, everybody.
Then there is the final coup de grace. Every police department in the surrounding area remains conspicuously silent. After all, the rapist (I’m supposed to say the alleged rapist) and the chief of police are their friends. Nothing to see here. A few nearby chiefs of police mouth empty expressions of concern that justice should be done, one day, in God’s good time.
I freely confess that, were I to learn of such things, I would be incensed. I would be incensed on your daughter’s behalf. I believe you can draw your own parallels to what is happening in the highest ranks of conservative evangelicalism, and especially with regard to what so far appears to be the absolute failure to do anything of any real consequence on behalf of the way-too-many people who are telling us of the awful, unspeakably despicable sexual assaults they allegedly (how infuriating to have to use that word) suffered under the power of ecclesiastical authorities.
Yes, call it sin if you like, but I am incensed. I fancy that your Lord and mine is incensed—and not at my being incensed.
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Wow, Gary! Is that what happened? I haven’t invested myself too heavily in the SGM case for want of time. Is your narrative a good portrayal of what happened? If so, thanks for putting this in perspective for me.
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I just tweeted this. Check out the article. It is so good:
It is better to be of a lowly spirit with the poor [oppressed] than to divide the spoil with the proud. http://goo.gl/89Gn6
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David,
In Julie Anne’s May 14 article, there is a link to the Second Amended Complaint in the SGM lawsuit. I submit that the horror portrayed by the verbal picture I tried to paint with the fictional policeman/rapist pales in comparison to the horror evoked by the utterly horrendous events described in the Second Amended Complaint. I recall that about the first 40 paragraphs of the Complaint are background. You might want to start reading at about paragraph 40 or so. Regardless, I would encourage you to spend an hour reading the document, or as much of it as you can stand to read.
Dan/Born4Battle,
I would also encourage you to invest some time going through this legal document. It might help you understand the heat with which some of us react to those leaders who essentially have nothing to offer other than fine, well measured, words.
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David: Here is the link to the second amended lawsuit. This link deserves a big ol’ trigger alert, so be forewarned.
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Sometimes I need to remove my own comments! the motive thing again…..
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You didn’t address my issue of removing people’s heart-felt comments entirely. When they moved the statement to the T4G website, they could have copied them and included them there, but instead, they entirely shut them down. They essentially took away those peoples’ voices.
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I just offered something to think about concerning exactly what a passage is saying that included a bit of good advice from a source outside of the Bible, that was in agreement with what the passage states. It’s about wrongly judging and advises us to judge others as we would want them to judge us. It’s a general principle. On a personal note, I think for believers to get wrapped up in vast conspiracy theories is not wise. For lawyers maybe, and even then conspiracy theories in themselves do not override legal statutes. If they are proven then they are no longer theories. And I still want justice to be served and am NOT defending anyone. I pray this comment is as objective as I would like it to appear, Consider it an exercise in deliberate thought in a classroom or something. It all applies regardless of the circumstance.
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Maybe, maybe not. maybe they actually gave it thoughtful consideration and with genuine sincerity decided not to include the responses. I really don’t know and will not judge their motives. I’ve made my own ‘heartfelt’ comments on occasion that were entirely inappropriate. The human heart can still be deceitful and wicked and I know mine has. the motive thing again.
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Born4Battle,
If I am reading you correctly, you don’t judge anyone until it is proven in a court of law? You say that you are not defending anyone, but you are. This isn’t a classroom setting with mock up courtroom. The Bible states that by the mouth of two or three witnesses that every word may be established. It isn’t wrong to judge, but you are telling us that it is wrong to judge. It is right to judge. As far as I am concerned, the courtroom thing is a formality thing. The people defending the good ole boys need a reality check, and I hope it bites them in the butt.
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Have you read the Second Amended complaint yet? When I see your response and that you are so concerned that something might not come off exactly right, I just get a little miffed. Please go and read that complaint. I posted earlier in response to David and then come back and tell me how concerned you are about your flippin’ tone. I mean SERIOUSLY. A child getting gang raped under the care of church leaders? WHAT IN THE HELL IS THIS?
I don’t think I’ve ever said ^^ on my blog, but give me a break. I’m so tired of this wussy business about worrying about saying things the right way when children were ABUSED. Their lives have been forever changed, some have been destroyed, others are coping and thriving. But think of the ones destroyed – – who have now turned their backs on God because what kind of God allows church leaders to do something like this? Let’s be for real now.
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Born4Battle,
May I point out something that the Apostle Paul stated in the following concerning judging:
1 Corinthians 5:1
“It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you…”
Reported by who? Wouldn’t that be considered hearsay? Where is the proof? Did it go to court? Did Paul witness it? How does he know it’s true? What was the evidence? Was it a conspiracy theory?
Verses 12-13
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
****************
We are to judge those inside the church, whether it goes to court or not. God judges those who are outside the church, but we are to judge those who are inside the church.
By the mouth of two or three may every word be established.
Verse 6 (I am talking about the good ole boys here in regards to their deleted posts)
“6 Your glorying is not good.”
Verse 2
“2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.”
Where is the mourning from you and the good ole boys?
Ed
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Born4Battle,
Please consider what others have already posted in other threads:
Silence in the face of evil is itself evil:
God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak.
Not to act is to act.
–Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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I guess I missed the ‘post’ button. I can see very good reasons for allowing responses and reasons for not allowing them. Moving from Facebook and posting it elsewhere was not done in a vacuum. I never read the Facebook material and I’m glad I didn’t, because I can choose to hope that it was done with thoughtful consideration and sincerity of heart. To broadcast what I ‘think’ are there reasons would be claiming to know their hearts and rather judgmental, don’t you think?
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