Train up a child in the way he should go:
and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6
You see that verse? Probably every homeschool parent heard that verse too many times to count throughout their homeschooling years. It was engrained in us. We did not want our children to depart from “the way they should go” and the solution was to “train” our children. At least that’s what they told us.
Ever since my spiritual abuse journey, I have been trying to figure out what led our family to that spiritually abusive church and pastor who sued us in an attempt to discover who our primary influencers were over the years. I found that the most influential people in the last couple of decades have been leaders in the homeschool movement who had a spiritual agenda, not necessarily an educational agenda. We have been taught so strongly to “train our children” and some of us did that quite well. We created little obedient and compliant robot children who were polite, respected authority and looked really good in church all lined up in a pew. People always commended us on our beautiful large family.
These influencers not only taught us how to parent, but taught us what they thought was very important: large families, courtship, modesty and purity, fathers as spiritual heads/priest of the home, mothers as hard-working submissive wives, preparing wholesome meals from homegrown gardens, grinding wheat to make whole grain breads. The boys were taught how to be boys, play like boys, work like boys, helping their fathers in projects around the house. Daughters learned traditional homemaking skills that would last them a lifetime when they got married and started families of their own, because that was their ultimate lot in life. Yes, in many homeschooling families, daughters were discouraged and even forbidden from going to college for any higher level education, they were to stay at home serving dad and their family while they waited to be courted by a young man approved by their father. True to the homeschooling culture, I did own a denim jumper or two, and I sewed matching jumpers for my daughters who were 7 years apart in age. My five boys may thank me that they never had matching homeschool uniforms like khaki slacks and polo shirts, but they did manage to always match by having jeans with holes in the knees.
Not only did we raise good obedient children, we invested in our children and pushed them towards educational excellence. We made sure they were well-versed on the popular homeschool-movement agendas which we adopted as our own: they knew how to debate creation vs evolution, they were politically involved in their communities, worked on political campaigns, participated in speech and debate classes and competitions, attended worldview conferences, and went on missions trips. In my family, our kids knew how to evangelize the “right way,” how to defend their faith, and knew the tenants of 5-pt Calvinism inside and out. Homeschooled students were good students, usually testing years ahead of their peers. They were accomplished in music, sports, volunteered at Crisis Pregnancy Centers, lobbying at the capital for homeschooling rights, etc. What more could we ask for?
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* * *
What many are finding out is that those brilliant robots, when released to the real world, start questioning where they came from, what they believed, where they are going. This is a normal response for young adults. But I’ve seeing a disturbing trend especially among young adults who were raised in this kind of environment. Many of these “trained” adult kids are now venturing 180 degrees in the opposite direction, perhaps in response to the controlled environment in which they were raised, some suffering a host of problems similar to what spiritual abuse victims experience that I deal with so often: mental health issues, addiction issues, etc. There is a lot of heartache among this group.
I feel very responsible for buying into this garbage. I will continue to speak out against disturbing aspects of the homeschool movement on my blog. It takes a lot of emotional energy to work up one of these posts because it means I have to admit my failure. Of course my blog will also continue to be a platform for these precious young adults. I believe in a way that some of us parents were cult leaders in our families. We were fed an agenda by those home school leaders. We believed it. We saw their perfect families and wanted to emulate what we saw and expected that kind of obedience and educational excellence from our children. We trained them alright.
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* * *
Not too long ago, I was asked if I would like to partner with others in a new blog called Homeschool Anonymous. I was thrilled to be asked because I have attempted to use my blog as a Spiritual Sounding Board to the abuses that I’ve noticed in the homeschooling movement. Most of the participants in the Homeschool Anonymous blog are former homeschool students, and two of us have been (or currently are) homeschool moms. Interestingly, you will notice that many of the blog participants no longer connect with their Christian heritage. I think conservative homeschoolers will find this shocking. In fact I admit that I am afraid to post about this on my private Facebook page because I have easily 300+ homeschooling friends/moms who might be pretty upset if I mention this big homeschooling secret: some of our adult kids have departed from the way in which we trained them.
I have long ditched my homeschool mom uniform, the denim jumper. I refuse to go to state-run Christian homeschooling conferences whose conference leaders get to hand-select vendors and speakers based on their approved religious agenda. So as I continue to teach our last two kiddos at home, those destructive religious-agenda influences play no part in our homeschooling anymore.
So yes, I am partnering with R.L. Stollar who is an amazing individual and new friend who was completely homeschooled and put together this group. I have so much respect for what he is doing to help his peers walk through their homeschool journeys and the aftermath or perhaps fallout. I hope Homeschool Anonymous reaches many former homeschooled students and parents and that our collective voices will be heard and considered. It’s never too late, right? Oh my, parenting is a humbling journey – so, so humbling.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Lunch break drop by.
julie Anne said:
R.D. – – You haven’t addressed the 2 or more Believers part of my message above. Are you now ok if I go over to HA since there is another Believer participating? I still sense that it won’t meet your approval (not like I need it, but just sayin’).
Honestly, Julie Ann, I wasn’t sure what you were referring to there. Is that a reference to Matthew 18? I was referring the to idea of partnering with unbelievers (being unequally yoked) in 2 Cor 6. That is my concern with H. A. Heather considers you a partner in her work, and you seem to think you are a partner in hers. Am I wrong?
On this: “Regarding ripping on fellow believers for their failings – – – I’d like to see the words you are referring to when you say I am “ripping on fellow believers.” Keep in mind that if I am “ripping” anyone, 3 of those fingers are definitely pointing back at me because I was one of them, too.”
I think much of your website is devoted to mocking and ripping other Christians. Many of them deserve it. Some f them are false prophets so you can do what you want with them. But once again, I would suggest doing it from a solid biblical basis. It’s not so much that you need to do so for yourself, but for those gathering to you. Again, point them to Christ. I don’t think you do that very often in your righteous crusade (and I think it is righteous), but I think it should become central. And it has to be more than pointing to the deficiencies of others in being like Christ, He has to be lifted up to the broken as the true source of their healing and growth.
Case in point. Joshua. You appreciate that he doesn’t like “most Christians.” That’s not good for him, nor are most Christians worthy of his dislike. I actually don’t believe you think the majority of Christians should be disliked, but you affirm him. There are actually many wonderful Christians, including homeschool families who live holy, balanced, interesting lives full of grace and compassion. (I would be very surprised if they all happened to live in my community.) You should encourage a positive vision of what Christ has done for many people, not commiserate in his bitter reflections. His attitude is sinful. No, I’m not saying you should attack that sin. I think you should counter it by rasing his eyes to what is actually out there. ..what Christ has done in many, many lives.
You can become like the police officer, who deals with such wretched humanity every day, to him it seems to be the norm. But it’s not.
Finally, Scriptures from Paul, many had been going through my head:
1 Cor 2:2
2 Cor 4:5
2 Cor 2:14-17
2 Cor 5:17-21
2 Tim 1:8-12.
Now I don’t want anyone flaming me for using the Bible. that’s my source for doing things a certain way. Can’t help it. Seems like the best way.
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And hey, Is there a way to make block quotes the way you do? When you do it, it makes reading so much easier!
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R.D.,
How about this one:
James 4:11-12
Also, you talk about not being unequally yoked, and yet if a married spouse who is a believer is to stay married to the unbeliever if the unbeliever wishes to stay married to the believer. Why is that? Isn’t that your same interpretation of being unequally yoked?
Are you going to shove Christ down the throat of the unbelieving spouse when they don’t want to hear it? If the unbeliever comes to Christ, it certainly will not be due to you scaring the person to Christ.
I think your methodology is to scare people to Christ, as I have said before. That certainly does not work.
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R.D. I’m sure there is some code that you can use for block quotes. Unfortunately, the toolbar is present for me “behind the scenes,”, so I can do it easily, but it’s not for commenters. It would be nice if WordPress offered that option. If I have time, I”ll try to block the quotes from behind the scenes. You may have noticed I did one of yours further up the comment page.
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A.Amos & Julie Anne,
Oh man, you lovers of our Lord, just touched my heart with your words. i love here, even if you didn’t like the poem… Yes, Julie when I finish it you can post it anywhere…
Thanking the Lord for you, and now I get to babysit my other grand daughter who is 2 years old. I love being a granny, and sure liked the God of the mundane because changing diapers is holy work ( ;
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RD said:
I consider myself a partner in that we are shining the light to the abuse that we have seen from hyper-authoritative homeschooling families/groups which have left a harvest of bruised fruit (HKs).
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Scared: Are you referring to Matt Redmond’s God of the Mundane? I started reading it recently and need to finish it, but I sure liked what I read. He’s writes so well. I’m glad to have recently connected with him – and especially glad to see that he, too, is speaking about church abuse. Go Matt!!
And go Granny!! Have fun. And thank you for permission to share your poem.
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The html to blockquote here is:
*blockquote*Text to be quoted goes here.*/blockquote*
I’m unable to type the Greater and Less-than signs here because WordPress will think I’m communicating html code, but you will be replacing the asterisks above with the greater-than sign, then type the word blockquote follow with the less-than sign. Then include the text to be quoted and follow the same pattern except this time, type a greater-than sign, a slash and then the blockquote word and less-than sign.
Clear as mud?
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Yes, Julie Anne- Matt Redmond’s book!
I bought three of them so I could share with all my other hamster friends who fell off the wheel of serving the church to the point where we were exhausted, beat up, and burnt out. Cool that you have connected with him!
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Hey all: Feel free to try the html blockquote code I posted here. If you mess up, don’t worry, I can fix it and let you know what happened so you can master it. I’m glad to know it now because I can go to other sites and use it. So, thanks for asking about it, R.D.
I use the italic code all the time (same as the pattern above, but replace the word “blockquote” with the letter “I”). The pattern for this coding is all the same. For bold, you use the letter b.
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RD,
When you suggest this blog “should become central” what are you talking about? (Obviously using the Bible is the solution)
When I think of becoming “central” I think of finding a remedy that will actually scale back the kind of Methological Abuse that is occurring. If Preachers are Stealth, then believers need to be equipped before they even have to endure the Abuse in the first place. Most sincere people aren’t on the sharp look-out for “Covert” Hyper-Theologians, who will throw around a few verses to authenticate their Methodology as “Truth”.
And the ones that have already been Spiritually Abused need to understand why it happened in the first place, so history won’t repeat itself. Sometimes understanding that the Hyper-Thelogian was entrenched in a Doctrine that places higher emphasis on Methodology rather than scriptures, will take away some of the pain from the venom.
I’m guessing (again) that outside of Crime and Sin alot of the abuse that is going on involves Doctrinal Indifference, and the abused have no idea.
(I’m sure there are some hard line Stealth 5 Pointers that may actually consider you being a liberal heretic for “only” being a 4 Pointer and posting your comments in this blog)
Keeping things from getting too personal is also challenge, because Spiritual Abuse is very personal. I consider a Pastor like a parent and in Ephesians 6:4 it says “Fathers don’t provoke your children to wrath”
(So who is the real Parent, the Pastor or the Seminary (or Movement) who is guiding these Theologians?)
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@ Mark:
I think RD meant that pointing people to Christ should become central on the blog, not that blog itself should become “central” to something.
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Hester,
I suggested the Bible is the obvious (manuscript). And yes Christ should be the central in all of our lives.
Does is stop right there?
With Christ being the central of our lives, we still have to decide where we will worship and are given the responsiblity by the Father of raising our kids.
There is Doctrinal Strife among the Biblical Academics that are educating our Pastors, that is spreading confusion within churches.
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Mark,
I can tell you are very concerned about doctrinal strife. In some areas of theology there are honest differences of opinion — such as infant baptism. Some genuinely believe it’s right. Others genuinely believe it should be for believers only. It’s okay to debate the merits of the positions and come to different places. This is normal for academics and Bible scholars, as well as interested Christians.
You’re right, this can cause confusion. I think how the pastor conducts himself with regard to these differences helps the church know how to respect those who differ while taking theology seriously. He also can help keeping minor issues minor, and important ones at the forefront.
And as I said before, there should be no hiding or deceit when it comes to one’s own beliefs, especially for leaders.
And on becoming “central”, Hester had it right. Watch me practice a blockquote!
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ChapmanEd24
It won’t help you to ask me questions. I discerned pretty quickly your debate skills and reasoning powers were so far above mine that I can find no response to match you, so I have chosen to disregard you. You can comment about me, insult me, accuse me, etc. but I won’t be baited with questions. If someone else feels a question of yours is helpful and picks it up, I will answer them. Thanks for understanding my weakness.
And now, I’m going dancing. i’ll touch base later.
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RD,
I don’t see anything that I have written that would dispute Hester and I don’t dispute you or anybody else who make Christ the center of their life
I have also accepted my own responsibility for being Doctrinally naive which made me vulnerable for 5 Point Hyper Abuse.
The turmoil in the SBC may not have effected your ministry. But my former Pastor’s Stealth Doctrine split the first 2 churches he Pastor-ed. (one of them being the Church I attend) You have acknowledged that being Stealth as “Subterfuge”.
My encouraging readers of this blog to understand the Doctrine of their Pastor or their former Pastor may benefit someone in avoiding abuse or understanding why they may have endured it in the first place so history doesn’t repeat itself, isn’t minimizing my own personal need to keep Christ the Center of my life.
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R.D.
I am surprised at your response to me. What surprises me more is how you judge another believers good works that was ordained by God from the foundation of the Earth.
We are to let our light shine, so that it will draw people to the light. If our behavior is to always point our fingers at people for their wrong doings, there is no light in that.
It’s a behavior thing. Your behavior in your good works is a light that brings people to you, and asks you.
Along this line, I am sure that you know that Catholicism creates more atheists than any other religion. Why is that? Abuse. Well, Calvinism is catching up.
And you think that you don’t have a need to respond to my debate? Do not judge Julie Anne’s good works unto the Lord.
Your “obedience” approach just doesn’t work. We are to be, as individuals, obedient to “faith”, not the Law of Moses.
We are to Pray for our loved ones to come to Christ, not to beat it over their heads. We are to bring up our children in love, our conduct is reflective of how our children will turn out. But I see that the word Love is defined differently for some.
To some, shoving Jesus down the throats of people is love.
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R.D. said the following:
Here is my response to that:
R.D. would much rather bully a woman, Julie Anne, for her good works, rather than dealing with me when I call him out, a man.
He admits weakness, and therefore he feels strong when dealing with a woman.
That is another of many reasons to not be associated with Calvinism, whether it be a 5 point, or 4 point. Besides, which point is the point that you do not believe in R.D.?
Don’t bully women on blogs. I do not understand what gives you the authority to think that you are strong with women, but weak with men.
If Julie Anne was a man, you would not be like you are. I am sure of it.
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Wow, Ed, that thought never dawned on me until you just pointed it out. You are a man and he is refusing to debate with you, but R.D. will debate with me. hmmm
R.D.? I hope you will respond to this after you are done dancing. (BTW, I think it’s cool that you go dancing every week with your wife!)
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Oh, Julie Anne, do I really have to spell it out? I will debate with you because I respect your intelligence. Ed, for me, falls under the simple rule of Prov. 26:4. Life is too precious and my time to valuable to waste on a blowhard who cannot read with comprehension or carry an idea to it logical conclusion, especially one who thinks what I wrote earlier to him was a genuine compliment. I don’t think anyone who has read Ed’s posts here would find a hint of insight or a question that furthered understanding. Some will dislike me for being honest here, and perhaps I should have retained my silence. But this bullying women garbage was beyond the pale…and that you would even think it is very sad.
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R.D. – – I completely disagree with you regarding Ed. I find him very insightful and articulate.
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R.D.
So you admit to being deceptive to me. That isn’t being honest. I have more insight than you can imagine. You are a leader that speaks evil of another believer. That, I do not take lightly. You have bullied a woman here. There is a reason that this post topic has more comments than any other. But you just cannot comprehend that. There are many here that disagree with you, R.D. Trust me.
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You have to admit that he has a point, R.D. I don’t want to have to go through the 200+ posts to name them, but they are definitely there. BTW, I think we broke a blog record on number of comments. I’ll have to check.
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Yes, Ed, I was playing with you. You were a little too dense to see the obvious. I actually thought you’d get it and take a cold shower or something. You haven’t understood a word I’ve said or tried to. Others here may disagree with me, but I see from the comments very few who are not trying to understand if I might have a point. Some actually ask relevant questions, and some actually have at least considered they may have misjudged me at first. You are, in my opinion, all bluster. Of course I wouldn’t be commenting here if everyone agreed with me. That’s the whole point of participating.
And ummm…”You have bullied a woman here.” Isn’t that attitude about frail womanhood what they call…sexist?
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His point is what, Julie Anne? No, I don’t see it at all. I think I will need you to interpret Ed for me.
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Sexist, huh? Isn’t that what Calvinism is all about? Keep the women silent? Don’t let the woman have a mind of their own?
Now you are playing the nice guy to Julie Anne? I call you a crafty hypocrite.
This is Julie Anne’s ministry. If you don’t approve, fine. But do not speak evil of another believer. You worry about your own good works.
But to the point, I know that your tactic is to scare people to Christ. You just don’t want to admit it. People come to Jesus on their own, Jesus doesn’t force anyone to come to him.
Imagine what happens when you spank a dog hard. That dog will HIDE in order to stay away from you. You have to woo the dog to come back to you. You have no compassion to those who have been abused, because you have yet to walk a mile in their shoes.
There is a reason that the best drug counselors are former drug addicts. They know what it is like. YOU DON’T. So until you have walked in their shoes, stay out of the business of shoving Christ down their throats.
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Wow…..this seems to have become a pretty unfruitful exchange.
I sure didn’t see RD bullying JA. And I wouldn’t have bothered responding to most of what Ed posted, either. Because someone disagrees with what JA is doing, doesn’t make them an enemy, bully or a person who speaks evil against a believer.
Why can’t some posting stick to the issues and drop the personal insults, insinuations and attacks?
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Lois,
You don’t remember this from R.D. to Julie Anne?
“For you, sin can only be in one direction. You will never help the abused with that perspective, nor will you when you mock positive steps from leaders instead of encourage them. You are far too strident and off balance to bring about real change. That’s too bad. “
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Ed, that was discussed afterward if I recall and I wouldn’t call one remark like that being a bully. BOTH sides have said things that should not have been said as they were personal attacks. Yourself, you have accused RD, actually stated as fact, a number of negative things about him that in my opinion were very wrong to do and unwarranted.
This has turned into one of those nasty debates. Little gets accomplished when people are personally insulted.
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Julie Anne, if we’re done with this sideline, I would like to go back to a central point I was trying to make about relating to unbelievers or wayward believers on sites like H.A. I thought your comment regarding Joshua’s words was illustrative of an approach I think is unhelpful.
If I understand you right, and some others here who support this idea, it is enough to generally encourage and cheer on these victims and maybe they’ll catch a bit of Christianity in our silent witness. But I think this example is a good case study in my critique of how you approach things. You never responded to it, but I would like you to.
I’m referring to your post at march 21 10:17 AM
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Lois,
I believe that shoving Christ down anyone’s throat is wrong, and unbiblical. There is spiritual abuse in homeschooling, is there not? Yes.
How does the abused get healed when raised in a spiritual abusive homeschooling environment? By shoving Christ down their throats, as R.D. suggests, which he calls a sideline.
He is a leader who has yet to experience abuse himself, and yet he is the expert at healing the abused? I think that Julie Anne has more experience in that arena.
Last I recall, R.D. came here on this blog and insulted Julie Anne. He is in the wrong. Not me for calling him out on it, and him mocking me for it.
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Lois – I don’t think I would go to another person’s blog and tell them where they should or should not be posting or associating with. I’ve told him directly I thought his words were condescending to me. I may or may not have gotten my panties in a wad a couple times, but give me a break- when he comes here to my blog with an attitude as he has shown and all of these people (and I may have left out some) called him on some aspect or another: Katie, Ed, Monique, Amos, monax, Recovering Pharisee, Gary W., Serving in Japan – – – then it there obviously is something going on with his attitude.
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Well, Ed, I read your posts and saw where you stated as fact many things about RD. Calling someone out on an issue is one thing…..calling them names and accusing them of things that are unwarranted are another matter.
I have not seen where RD has advocated shoving Christ down anyone’s throat. RD didn’t call that as a sideline as you state. And, absolutely, there is spiritual abuse in the homeschooling movement. I didn’t see anyone deny such. He never said he was an expert. And did he ever share if he has experienced spiritual abuse?
So you feel RD insulted JA. OK. But you did much more than call him on it—-you insulted him, called him names, and attributed things to him that were unwarranted.
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Julie Anne, sometimes it is helpful to hear another person’s opinion on what one is doing. Sometimes it can help us to see an aspect of it that perhaps we did not notice. We may not always initially like what they say or how they say it. And sometimes we may get defensive at first.
If one is going to have a blog like this, then they should expect people to come and post who disagree. Haven’t you gone to other people and shared you felt they shouldn’t be associating with someone (such as having them speak)?
Yes, RD got an attitude as the posting continued. He also had attitudes thrown his way. I don’t have a clue who RD is and am not a friend. He hasn’t been without blame in all this, either.
I am not saying any of this to be mean. It would simply be much more fruitful if everyone could post without the attacks, name calling and negative insinuations/statements about each other. If someone comes here and appears insulting, call them on it but don’t resort to the other. Stay with the issues and don’t allow yourself to be pulled into the attacks.
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Lois,
I have no problem calling a spade a spade. If that critique is an insult to him, then he needs to change his attitude.
When one is spiritually abused, one is not going to listen to anything that anyone has to say about their sin (shoving Christ down their throat). All you will do is to shove them away.
He did advocate that he was an expert when he told Julie Anne that he has been helping the abused for longer than Julie Anne has been alive.
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R.D. (BTW, nice job with the blockquote html.)
You wrote this:
I just spent 10 minutes searching for Joshua. You must have meant Judah and the quote here:
I understand what Judah is saying. He’s saying he does not appreciate phoney baloney Christians who use the Christian name, but don’t show the evidence of it in their life in how they relate to people. I think you have done what he is talking about. You came over here to my blog and are critiquing me and how I do things. And now you are critiquing this young man and his words.
Are you doing it in love? You probably would say what you are doing is loving – – you are giving me tough love because as a Christian, that if I were a Christian, I should know this stuff. But I am telling you by your attitude that you have used with me and now as you criticize this man’s words, you are not showing love. It is not loving or kind to go around and correct people.
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Lois – I appreciate your concern, but I have it under control. R.D. and I obviously want to wrestle through this. Besides, maybe I want to double the commenting record 😉 haha No, seriously, this is all good. I don’t want to have to start debating you, though 🙂
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I don’t do debates, so no problems there, Julie Anne. 🙂 No problem with me bowing out, either. Bye!
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R.D., You have been pretty clear with each of your posts that I commented on and your replies to my comments. It seems you are sincere in your conviction that victims of abuse ought to be shown love, the one fact we may all agree upon. But you have said in many ways essentially that if we listen to their pain without talking about Jesus, we are encouraging sin.
What I have observed on Julie Anne’s blog is a willingness to listen and simply give a space for people to talk about what has happened to them. Still not seeing how that is wrong, or different from what Jesus himself would do…
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No prob, Lois – I’ll catch you around again soon 🙂 We always seem to meet up with these crazy abuse stories. Take care!
RP – You’ve got it – – like it’s so bad of me to listen? I like listening to people because I know what it’s like to be heard. I tried years and years during my abusive childhood to get people to listen to me. They all just blew me off. The same thing with spiritual abuse. People just do not want to listen. Guess what? I do. I want to hear the whole story. To be heard – what a tremendous gift to give someone.
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I really think that listening is one of the most powerful ways we can reflect Christ to people. It’s so powerful to simply be validated and really heard. One of the most healing sermons for me post-SGM was a message about being known by God. How He sees us, and is with us, through every painful experience.
Did you see this post on how pastors can help victims by referring them to professional help? http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/
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R.P.,
This is really good.
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Was just awakened by a cat playing with a centipede that had made it’s way up onto the bed I was sleeping in. Can anybody spell revulsion? Well, I also experience a certain revulsion when I see preachers disrespecting people in ways reminiscent of the overall approach of the Baptist preacher who has been participating in this blog thread. If our Baptist Preacher is representative of what it is to be a Christlike, I sure don’t want anything to do with Jesus. Fortunately, though our Baptist Preacher may be fairly representative of way too much “church” leadership, he absolutely is not representative of the Jesus I see in a great majority of lay Christians I know.
So, I am wondering how all our Baptist preacher’s unpleasantness can be turned to profit. Are we to take him as something of a warning as to what kinds of so called pastors to stay away from? Can his behavior somehow be held up as an example of how abusive “pastors” abuse? I mean, he won’t participate in conversation with Ed, and he won’t condescend to respond to my challenge to provide specific examples to substantiate a critical, dismissive, general statement he had made. Is this part and parcel with the tendency of abusive pastors to ostracize and marginalize? He insults, mocks, criticizes, and shifts blame. He seems particularly unwilling to listen to or even try to understand another person’s point of view. He is above criticism and reproach. Are these all characteristics of abusive so-called pastors? Seems to me we may have something of a case study on our hands.
Then again, maybe the question I should be concentrating on is, how can I manage to love somebody like this? I’m sure Jesus loves him with the same love that He loves every one of us.
Help.
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Ed – another heartfelt and well-worded post above, thanks.
Julie Anne – You have the patience of Job.
R.D. – Like so many of the Christian fundamentalist “movements” that are inherent in the discussions on blogs such as Julie Anne’s, somewhere in the development of your faith, you either forgot something crucial regarding human beings or perhaps, never learned it at all.
So much of Fundie Christian thinking and preaching is fear-driven. Fear that God will stop loving us. Fear that God will condemn us. Fear even, that God will punish a *child* with “damnation” for merely being a child if we don’t beat and brow-beat that child into submission and that God will condemn *us* for failing in our Christian parenting. Although you didn’t exactly come right out and say it, your faith seems to demand of your fellow Christians that if, no matter what their trials and tribulations, they don’t keep absolutely “Christ-centered”, they are in danger of losing their souls and if we, or Julie Anne, don’t keep “Christ” in the conversation – we are aiding and abetting sin.
Like some who post here, I’m not a Christian – but I accept that Christians love God through Jesus. I’m more than good with that. I don’t like the word “worship” personally, and the word “love” seems like a better substitute. Otherwise I have no problem equating a Christian’s love of God with a Jew’s love of God by way of understanding their faith and helping me to understand Julie Anne’s “Great Work” and the stories these suffering people have to tell. I say this by way of explanation as to why a non-Christian might be interested in this topic.
The Orthodox, our “fundies”, are not much different in their legalism than their Christian counter-parts. I’ll give two rather innocuous examples without even bringing a scriptural reference into it. Though many associated with the various Jewish “movements” may write “God” as “G-d”, it is a primarily Orthodox practice. The idea behind it is one of respect: If you write out all 3 letters and decide to discard your writing – you’ve desecrated God’s name! No matter that God is probably capable of figuring out that “-” stands for, “o”. They never speak aloud the Tetragrammaton, “YHWH” – “Yahweh”. Puppies explode when you do that!
As for the rest of us non-Orthodox, we’ve come to understand that our God is bigger than all of that and that the true desecration, the true insult to God – is to attribute silly and ancient superstitious thinking and legalism to Him. We’ve all done our part through the ages to create a vicious and childish God to replace Him.
God’s suffering children are human, R.D. He created us, He understands us. If his suffering children should appear to forsake Him in your opinion by leaving Him out of the conversation, if Julie and other bloggers and we who post on those blogs offer friendship, understanding, healing and above all, HOPE – your fear is that God will be insulted because He wasn’t invited to the party. Except, He was there all the time, working through all of them. Give God a little bit of credit, R.D. I heard somewhere that He works in, “mysterious” ways.
Its as difficult for Jews to get their heads around fundamentalist Christianity as it is for Christians to get their heads around fundamentalist Judaism. You’ll forgive this poor Jew if he finds the Calvinism you espouse and all of its variants as impossible to grasp as a handful of cloud. Rabbi Hillel said, “what is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole of Torah, the rest is commentary. Go and study it”. I cannot think of anything more antithetical to this idea than the so-called “Patriarchal” and “Quiverfull” movements these blogs expose. We call what Julie Anne does, “Tikkun Olam” – Repairing the World – the Great Work. Julie Anne’s greatest accomplishment in my own opinion, has been to repair her relationship with her own children. That, and that alone, makes her more than qualified to speak with Authority (note my capitalization). She has taught me more about the Christian concept of “grace” more than you or any theologian ever could.
I’m long-winded as usual. Recovering Pharisee above distilled what I’m trying to say into something very simple:
“What I have observed on Julie Anne’s blog is a willingness to listen and simply give a space for people to talk about what has happened to them. Still not seeing how that is wrong, or different from what Jesus himself would do…”
It isn’t wrong, it isn’t different and you’ve failed, R.D., to persuade any of us otherwise.
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Recovering Pharisee and Gary,
The Link provided by Recovering Pharisee is really really good. That article IS my point, my whole point, to R.D.
Here is one quote from the first article that is worth mentioning, that puts a keener look into R.D.’s mindset:
—————————— (My Version of a Blocked Quote)
“Another mainstay is the emphasis on sin as the root of all emotional/psychological pain/difficulty. Medication for depression, for instance, is routinely frowned upon if not forbidden; and issues of abuse are oversimplified as sinners being sinners. In CJ’s famous words, we are all doing “better than we deserve,” and God’s holiness is such that abusers and the abused alike are equally deserving of an eternity of suffering in hell. Thus, God’s grace given to such undeserving people demands that victims must “forgive” abusers and get over their pain by simply submitting to the gospel and repenting – and, in the case of this lawsuit, this may even lead to “reconciling” children with abusers in person without involving authorities at all.
All this is obviously dangerous at best – crazy at worst.
During my journey as a pastor/church planter, I have come to the conclusion that pastors should not do “counseling” at all.”
—————————-
The last paragraph sounds so familiar to what I said to R.D. above a few comments back when I said for him to stay out of the business of shoving Christ down people’s throats, which is giving a guilt trip on the victim. They don’t want to hear it. And I don’t blame them for not wanting to hear the guilt trip.
Notice, if you will, that the victim is deserving of an eternity of suffering in hell, according to the quote above. The victim must repent. Is that what your Bible tells you, too, R.D.?
What I am hearing from R.D. is just that. That puts blame on the victim, and scuttles the responsibility of the oppressor.
The oppressor is the evil one, not the oppressed. And now RD wants the oppressed to submit to more spiritual abuse by demanding the the oppressed repent. Demand.
I do believe that the Bible discusses much about the oppressed.
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@ Julie Anne:
“It is not loving or kind to go around and correct people.”
I would agree with this statement if the correction is relentless, ad nauseam and (as you said) unloving – which is what you seemed to be saying. Sometimes it can be very loving to correct someone (in the Biblical sense, not just pointing out their mistakes), though doing that before you’ve gained their trust and/or correcting them rudely or self-righteously will probably do more harm than good.
I actually don’t necessarily read RD as necessarily advocating “correction bombing” – though maybe he might advocate getting to any correction sooner than you would. I think the timing of the correction, if needed, would vary from person to person, and it may not have to take the form of, “Bob, you are wrong/sinning because…”
I think you both recognize this, but it may be getting lost at the moment and your methods may differ. You seem to object more to RD’s attitude/tone than to whether or not a given person could improve their behavior, which you seem to agree on.
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RD, “Finally, the whole discussion on love that followed while I had work to do is so unbiblical that it is fruitless to even go there.”
Followed by literally hundreds of responses that reinforce the suspicion that a discussion on love could be unbiblical when, according to the Bible, love is the first mentioned fruit of the spirit against which there is no law.
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Julie Anne,
How things have degraded here. I tried to get them back on track of our larger discussion, but you can’t get off the personal thing.
You spent 10 minutes searching for Joshua? I gave you the exact time stamp for your post. I am responding to how you perceived and how you affirmed Judah. (Yes, I got the name wrong). Early on you asked me how you affirm victims in their rebellion. Then you did it right here. I gave you an entirely positive way you could interact with him, and you reject it. That’s fine. But I was looking for clarity about how you think, and you gave it to me. You affirm them. You even delight to repost their dark perspectives as though they are true. I think that is not good. My opinion.
Yes, I am doing it in love. If what you say is true, then Jesus was not loving. Also, by your own definition you are not loving. I came here because I saw you commenting on another site where you chided and challenged good people and then ran back here and let everyone know you gave them what for. Were you loving when you did that? By your definition you were not. Now I didn’t mind it, nor did I think you were unloving. You said your piece on someone else’s thread. They can respond or ignore you as they wish. In that case, they mainly ignored you. That’s what brought me here.
The mentality that only people who disagree with you are unloving is an unfortunate one. I never said anyone here was unloving, though a few clearly have issues in that area.
Well, I think I am done now. I stayed because of this moment of light, Julie Anne, when you rose above the herd.
Then that totally went away. I’m not sure why.
Anyway, I am all done now. I may post much further down the line my impression of how commenters are handled here. That will be for the thoughtful folks who have been kind enough to see past my excesses and interact with my ideas. To them I say thank you.
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R.D. can’t just go away quietly. He needs to announce the fact. Have we all just been ostracized? He at least acknowledges “excesses.” Excesses, indeed. Wouldn’t it be appropriate for somebody who calls themselves a pastor to also apologize?
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Except that R.D. isn’t entirely going away. He makes it clear that he will be monitoring us. He is not at all letting go. In the state where I live the legislature has had to address the situation where a man who cannot otherwise have his way with a woman will place her under surveillance. It is a prohibited form of stalking. Now, I am not saying that R.D. is committing criminal stalking by monitoring this blog, but I do submit that it is legitimate to note the parallels. It brings to mind the ways in which abusive pastors will continue to seek to impose consequences on congregants who have left the pastor’s “church.” Like suing them for half a million dollars, as in Julie Anne’s case.
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I said: It is not loving or kind to go around and correct people.”
Hester replied:
I left Hester’s whole comment because it’s important to understand what she is suggesting. In my quoted sentence, Hester is right – I don’t mean it’s not appropriate to correct someone, it’s the timing that I am referring to.
In R.D.’s mind, I’m doing it all wrong. I shouldn’t be posting on HA with unbelievers. He suggests that Josh Harris did it the right way on his blog (but notice Josh has never brought the subject up again and I don’t see any HKs posting over there, so who is he ministering to?) I need to be using the Bible. I need to be showing them they are in sin. I need to point to Christ. I shouldn’t be talking badly about their parents who caused them such pain because they are Christians. I think those are some of his big issues with me.
R.D. says he’s probably been helping the abused longer than I’ve been alive. Ok, I’m 48 years old. I would expect R.D. to be very capable of good quality communication. So. R.D. came to my blog and left his initial comment here:
His initial comment on my blog is critical. He could have introduced himself, asked some questions, but instead he left a short, critical comment. His 2nd comment is fine, but his 3rd was snarky:
And then take a look at the beginning statement or paragraphs of the next few comments. Please note the tone and keep in mind this is the first sentence or paragraph of the comment, so in other words, this is the sentence he uses to initially engage and grab my attention:
and
and
Do you all see what I am getting at? He grabs my attention alright. The tone is not kind, not loving, blunt, even at rude, condescending.
We do not know the eternal state of some of these HKs. They could be in a spiritual crisis and responding by poor lifestyle choices. They may indeed be Christians in just a very deep valley, or maybe they are not. We do not know. I also am a Christian and a sinner, saved by grace. If this man, who has been doing this gig for over 48 years initially treated me, a fellow Christian like this, how is he going to be treating HKs?
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RD,
I sent you a response @6:27 p.m. last night about keeping Christ Central. I woke up this morning and the blog kind of went negative.
Not whole lot of “Love and Christ Centering” going on in this blog since last night.
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R.D. – Yes, I did spend 10 minutes. This is exactly what you wrote:
I’m referring to your post at march 21 10:17 AM
To me it looked like you were implying I wrote the quoted part and so by the time I realized that the quoted part was yours, I went back to get the context of that quote and the name Joshua through me off because the only Joshua I remember mentioned was Josh Harris. So then I literally searched for all of the Joshuas and could get no context or understanding of what you were talking about. So, finally, I went back to my quote and pieced it together. Yes, 10 minutes.
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Wow – – – I just now finished reading all of this thread and responding as I went. After reading R.D.’s last comment, I feel we are going in circles. At times I felt we were getting places, but R.D’s last comment solidified it for me. I am concerned about the R.D.-types who want to minister to HKs in the same fashion R.D. used with me. Yes, it concerns me greatly. It seems that employed method might push HKs even further away.
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Julie Anne
fwiw – I think this comment thread has been great – And much needed…
For we wrestle… And Iron sharpens Iron… And the wounds of a friend….
For me – I now understand “Conflict” to have a benefit.
Causing us to go deeper with each other.
And deeper with Jesus – Looking for “Truth.”
——————-
This is a re-post – @ – MARCH 21, 2013 @ 11:05 AM
Don’t know if you saw it with all the “Stuff” flying back and forth. 🙂
Was hoping for a response about – “Train up a child in the way he should go:”
Did I make myself clear? – Or, did I muddy the waters?
Or, does everyone see it this way?
—————–
Thanks for your honesty and openness.
Lots of good comments – I’ve been trying to catch up with the different conversations.
Don’t know if this was mentioned, but, your post starts with this verse…
“Train up a child in the way he should go:
and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6
I first understood this verse to mean…
I was to train “My” child – In the way “I” thought he should go.
The way “the Religious System” said he should go.
Now I understand this verse to mean…
I was to train up “God’s Children”
In the way “God” wants them to go. – To be the person “God” created them to be.
NOT what “I” wanted them to be.
(We do dedicate them to God and say they belong to God. – Yes?)
And definitely NOT what “the Religious System” wants them to be.
Pew sitters – Who will – Pray – Pay – Stay – and – Obey
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Julie Anne
Much agreement with your assesment – @MARCH 22, 2013 @ 7:56 AM.
See, “Conflict” has a benefit – It sharpens your discernment skills. 😉
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“Anyway, I am all done now. I may post much further down the line my impression of how ministers of The Word who are not used to being corrected by people who don’t buy into the same kind of narrow viewpoints they themselves are trying to expose as inherently un-Christian are handled here.” There, fixed it for you.
Julie Anne – I don’t think you would have made any real progress with R.D. any more than having the same argument with those churchmen whose practices you seek to expose, some of whom he believes are “well-intentioned”. Personally, I’ve never met a preacher, priest or rabbi that didn’t consider themselves infallible when it came to their own preaching. Which is funny, when you consider how many of them have a personal beef with the Pope…
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Amos – Thank you for reposting your comment. I think you are absolutely right. The system wanted us to train them up their way, but most definitely I am learning now that their way is not God’s way. Such good words, Amos. You’re right, I think your comment did get lost in the shuffle of emotions.
And funny that you mention iron sharpens iron. I don’t have any proof of it, but he mentioned:
(R.D. – if you are reading – I love the “let everyone know you gave them what for” phrase – – – I wish words came out of my mouth like that – lol.)
I highly suspect he’s referring to the SharperIron forum where it seems a lot of pastors/church leaders/religious educators meet. I have engaged them on a number of occasions regarding SGM/homeschool movement. There is one pastor who consistently understands spiritual abuse and church abuse issues and is a frequent commenter on the topic, challenging his peers to take a closer look, the rest seem to argue with him (and me) and don’t seem to show much concern or care, sadly.
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IP:
I think that’s true for a lot of pastors. But thankfully, not for all. I’m not going to throw all pastors out with the bath water because there are still some good ones out there. It might seem like a needle in a haystack at times, but I know they are there.
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A. Amos Love,
I guess it depends how magnified the conflict becomes. When it starts to become personal who becomes glorified the Father in Heaven or Satan.
Maybe Church Splits can be healthy, but if Satan is capable of laughing then he is probably enjoying himself watching Christians bicker.
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Julie Anne
I think I’m seeing why you find Ed insightful. You make up things I’ve “said” just like he does. You did it right away with baseless accusations like “You, like so many others respond to criticism the same way, by turning it around and blaming the victim” (way back at Mar 19, 10:47). Now you even expanded the made up things into my “big issues.” But I do think you are sharper then Ed, because out of my “big issues” you did get one right. I did say you needed to point them to Christ. All of the other big issues you say I have I never even hinted at. There are other big issues I have, but you left those out for the made up ones.
This from your last post is truly remarkable. It’s about my first post.
My comment was critical? Not of you. It is a reasonable interpretation of what H. A. is about. Critical? I was only critical of you when you said “So what if this person is not healed? What is the problem?” Frankly, this utterly shocked me. I still find it shocking. I have mentioned it a couple of times, and said I cannot think of any possible positive interpretation of it, nor can Ed or Gary. You have pretended you never said it by never bringing it up again, and I can understand why. It is indefensible. But quoting my response to it as me suddenly being inexplicably negative is uncharitable and disingenuous. Understanding you are likely embarrassed by that comment I let it go later because you seemed to want a real discussion about H. A. I wouldn’t mention it now if you had not brought up my response to it out of context.
Also, your condemnation of Joshua Harris is both untrue and unfounded. I appreciate your saying it again. Where did you get the information he has never brought up home-schooling again other than that one blog. Have you talked to people who attend CLC? It was a major topic of discussion there for a period of time initiated and continued by Mr. Harris. He has much to account for in his ministry, but to say what you did is unjust.
Finally, I have never seen any blogger harp on commenters typos (your name) and other simple mistakes (Joshua/Judah) which were made in all innocence.
Have a great day everyone.
The Stalking Baptist, even-sort-of Calvinistic Pastor
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RD,
Before you take off, I did repond back to you last night @ 6:27 p.m. about keeping Christ Central.
When I woke up this morning and I notice this thread went negative. I don’t see much evidence of “Love and Christ Centering” from last night until now.
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I read through all this this morning and I’ve got to say it mostly just made me glad that H.A. is not a project trying to “lead” people anywhere, but simply giving people a platform to speak about personal experiences and perspectives.
I think it’s more than a little amusing that my blog (and me as a person, of course) were held up by a certain rather judgmental guy as examples of why this project is so sinful, and that it was done quite vehemently and sure about my motives. I mean I even had to go ask myself “Am I speaking out about this stuff in order to intentionally lead people down the path to hell?” Of course the answer was “Oh wow, he’s totally right. I AM!!!”
So yeah, this mostly made me want to crack jokes, except for the fact that this is ultimately a serious debate about the wellbeing of homeschooled children and the experiences of the first generation of homeschooled young people in modern times. So I figured I’d link my blog post responding to the suggestion that we should look to Harris and Bradley for anything.
https://becomingworldly.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/being-labeled-anti-christian-for-speaking-out/
Anyway, thank you for your kind notes, Katie and Julie Anne, and happy continued arguing! *plays imaginary fiddle jig for Julie Anne*
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RD,
I have been attempting to have a meaningful dialogue with you and I understand we aren’t the only bloggers but at the end of your 8:35 a.m. send of you posted “even-sort-of Calvinistic Pastor”. What is that?
I know their are several layers of Calvinism. I just don’t think it is possible to be part Calvinistic. A woman can’t be a little pregnant. (whether she is in her 1st month or 8th month)
I don’t see how a person can embrace 4 Points of TULIP and refute 1 Point of TULIP. TULIP is the “Cliff Note” or perimeter that Calvinist use when they interpret the Bible.
If there is any part of true Calvinism that you refute then how can you truly be a Calvinist?
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A.Amos Love wrote:
A.Amos,
Amen and thank-you for this: “”Now I understand this verse to mean…
I ache over how rigid I was with my first daughter, thankful that I got out of that religious system before my second daughter was five. They are grown women now, but I wish hindsight wasn’t 20/20.
I enjoy your comments, had a good belly laugh on what you wrote about what the system wants them to be.
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You’re right of course, Julie Anne. Find the right Church or Synagogue and you’ll likely find that Pastor or Rabbi. The two seem to go together, don’t they?
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@Interested Party,
It’s good to see you back. Thanks for your kind words. Coming from you, that means a lot to me. Thanks again, and God bless!!
@ A. Amos Love,
Every one of your comments just simply touches my heart and my eyes to tears. You are sure reflective of the name. Many God blesses to you!!
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R.D. said this:
Ok, I was not understanding that this “healed” word was still such a big issue to you. I referred to the “healed” issue again when I asked you what you meant by healed later on – whether you were meaning spiritually or emotionally. But since this seems to be a stumbling block in our conversation, let me see if I can explain it to you as you are making it into something that just isn’t there for me. Here is what you said:
When I said, “So what if this person is not healed? What is the problem?” , I was not talking about spiritual healing, I was talking about emotional healing. I acknowledged later on in the thread that we both are in agreement that the primary goal is spiritual healing, but that’s not where a lot of these HK kids are. Some of them are just now coming to grips of what kind of abuse system they were brought up in. They are angry, confused, in pain. Some are using unhealthy methods of dealing with that pain. I was basically asking you – – “so what if they aren’t healed” – – meaning . . . deal with them right where they are – – – walk with them in their pain – – – listen to their stories, validate what they have gone through and label it as what it is “abuse.” Acknowledge to them that the Christ who was represented to them in this “system” is NOT the Christ that is in scripture – that He doesn’t have use legalism, He loves them for who they are, etc. Healing has a time and place and it is not always instantaneous with an application of scripture and then enlightenment – at least probably not with these kids because they will most likely reject that kind of response – they’ve dealt with that their whole life.
Does this make any better sense, R.D? I’m trying. I really am.
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R.D. said:
R.D. – I thought we were referring to his blog, not what he does in his own church. I hope Josh is continuing this discussion at his church. There has been a lot of damage done (do Google search on I Kissed Dating Good-Bye by Josh Harris and see the fall-out from that book). Didn’t you mention you thought it would benefit HA commenters seeing his blog article? You didn’t mention HA commenters going to his church.
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Mark
I kinda agree with you with about “NOT getting personal.”
I have to remember I also believed, and acted like todays “Abusive Religious Leaders” – “Pastors who Abuse” – “Pastors addicted to Exercising Authority.” Yes – I was ordained. I was in “Leadership.” Oy Vey!!! 😦
After I left “the Abusive Religious System” thru much pain, tears, and “Spiritual Abuse.” And trying to explain to my friends, or whoever, about what I was seeing “the Institutional Church” doing, and teaching, that is NOT in the Bible. I received lots of “Personal Attacks.” When you challenge a Mans – Power – Profit – Prestige – and – Tradition – things get ugly pretty fast. 😉
The benefit in that “Conflict” was – It drove me to Jesus – And I threw away ALL the babies and ALL the bath water and started from scratch. Went back to the Gospels, read about Jesus, what He said, what He taught, over and over again. I wasn’t interested in man and his books. I stopped reading Mans books and looking to Mans ideas. I had to go to Jesus and to get it for myself. – Benefit. 😉
And I also learned something valuable, a benefit, about receiving “Personal Attacks.”
I complained about it to a friend, “I’m just trying to help my friends, and pastor/leader/reverends, stuck in an “Abusive Religious System” and they’re calling me names: Rebellious, Trouble maker, Divisive, NOT willing to submit to Authority, and it hurts.
And she said, “Oh that’s just a fallacy.” I said, “Fallacy? I thought a fallacy was a lie” She explained. “A fallacy in debating is a tactic to throw you off the topic at hand, to change the subject from the topic to the individual because that person is losing the debate.” “They have surrendered on the facts, and scriptures presented. You have presented your position from the Bible and they NO longer can refute what you’re saying – so they call you Names, Label you, to get you to “SHUT-UP.” So, I asked, “Do you mean, when the “Personal Attacks” come it’s because they are frustrated, have nothing of value, nothing from the Bible, left to say, the debate is over and they’ve surrendered?”
Yes – But just because they have conceded doesn’t mean they see the light.
Or desire to walk in that truth you’ve presented. “NOT one of His Disciples, in the Bible, has the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend – Why do you? – If it’s NOT in the Bible?” Most just continue in the Myth – Kinda like “the Emperors New Clothes.” Where the Emperor, after learning that he was naked, continued his march thru town like nothing was wrong…
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Well, for me personally, I find this exchange to be fruitful. I’ve always run away from conflict and let other’s intimidate me. I’m usually quite good at ignoring the “elephant” in the room. I’m realizing I just can’t do that and I really don’t want to anymore. I’m learning much from this blog. Maybe I’m finding my voice? (which is ironic since I have laryngitis today and literally can’t talk, just whisper!) That’s why I had to comment on RD’s tone in his comments. I’m trying to learn to do this in love, without my excess baggage getting thrown in the mix.
Julie Anne:
It seemed like way back in the thread you and RD agreed to disagree and had made some progress. I think that’s the best that can be done ☺
I so appreciate this blog and place for discussion.
Chapmaned4:
I so agree re: the bully tactic with Julie Anne. His whole demeanor seemed dismissive to Julie Anne and his words jarring. I really appreciate your insights. I’m learning a lot from your posts.
Scared:
I love your poem. I’m so sorry you had to experience what you did, but so happy you’re finding your first love again.
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scared
Thanks for the kind words. 🙂
When challenging “the Abusive Religious System” their words are rarely kind. 🙂
And – If you keep enjoying yourself – You might have to change your name.
How does *Joyfull* sound? – Or *Fullness of Joy?*
You brought JOY to my heart. With your precious poem and kind words.
Sounds to me like you’re full of Jesus – And – In His presence is fulness of joy.
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy;
Psalm 16:11
Be blessed – and be a blessing….
Thank you Jesus
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Ed Chapmen
And I’ve enjoyed most of your comments as well. – Refreshing…
I only say “Most” because – Me thinks you shouldnt get a big head. 😉
And I’m sure I can find something to dis-agree about with a little looking.
NO really – I’ve enjoyed you comments and your passion on this thread.
I enjoy your insights and the way you word things – sounds straight from the heart.
Jesus’ heart. 🙂
Seems Jesus did NOT have a problem blasting the “The Religious Leaders” of His day.
And that was “The Religious System” He set up. Those were His Priests He called; Snakes, Whited Sepulchers full of dead men’s bones, Of your father the Devil, You place heavy burdens on shoulders and do nothing to lift them off.
Sounds to me like things haven’t changed very much…
And – The Religious Leaders” were NOT happy with Jesus either. 😉
Jesus loved the tax collectors, the sinners, the prostitutes, the least, the less honorable.
Seems the only ones He gave a hard time to were “The Religious Leaders” of His Day.
Doesn’t anyone ever wonder? Why? Jesus taught His Disciples?
NOT to be called “Leaders” for you have “ONE” Leader – Jesus? Mat 23:10 NASB
And – NOT one of His Disciples called them self “Leader”
ALL His Disciples called themselves – “Servants
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Amos,
Thank you!
Monique,
This particular blog dug into different things and much of it was fruitful.
The Bully Tactic dialogue seems to have magnified. RD was pretty aggressive and consistant with everybody, not just Julie Anne.
I had attempted several times with short little notes to have meaningful dialogue with RD so he could open up a little, but the war of words between RD and other bloggers made my postings virtually invisible to RD.
(I addressed RD with some Doctrinal issues which I think is a major source of abuse and has been a distraction from keeping Christ Center)
I really wanted him to respond to my short 9:04 a.m. this morning and 6:27 p.m. last night’s postings. I don’t think at this point there is not much hope in that.
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Ed – thanks very much!
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@A Amos Love,
Oh, I am sure that you can find some things to disagree with me on, but I sure cannot challenge you, that is for sure. I could learn a lot from you. You are the example of God’s love and mercy…and that heavily misused and redefined word called Grace. You know the real grace.
As IP mentioned, and you in your last, many leaders are the problem, not part of the solution.
My insights come from years of studying many different “religious” systems, and cults. I have a deep desire to find out why people believe what they believe.
“Religion” gets in the way of a relationship with God. I don’t see relationship with Calvinists. I see “obedience” to a set of rules and regulations that put a stumbling block to relationship. This is why I equate Calvinism to Catholicism. Obedience to “The Church (Catholicism)” is more important than a relationship with God. Calvinism is just another form of Catholicism in that regard.
So, when I am dismissed by LEADERS like R.D., I recognize right off the bat, where he is coming from, and he was deceptive, while claiming honesty. “Religion” is abusive. That is why I just could not let this go without commenting about him.
Some were actually warming up to his tactics, and so I felt that I had to revisit his motives. He states something, then someone quotes him, then he claims that he is being misrepresented. Somehow he became the victim to get people to feel sorry for him and side with him. That reminded me of the stealth that Mark has discussed. He is crafty.
I am glad to know that you got rid of ALL the babies with ALL of the bathwater. That is what it takes to get to the Truth (Jesus).
I am non-denomination. To me, In a denomination, you must buy off on what someone else already decided for you some 400 years ago (Calvinism). In a non-denomination, just like Fox News states, the Preacher reports, We Decide.
We decide by “searching the scriptures daily to see if those things are so”. In other words, do not believe the preacher until you can verify it for yourself.
And that is what you have done. You have found the Love of God, and you certainly reflect it.
Take Note, R.D. on how love is to be expressed.
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Yes Mark, I agree that his aggression was directed not only at Julie Anne.
Oops, that should have been chapmaned24 (not chapmaned4) 🙂
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Chapmaned24,
I attempted to have meaningful dialogue several times with RD connecting Doctrinal Indifference with Spiritual Abuse. I think much of the war or words kept him distracted from responding to my last nights 6:27 p.m. post and more importantly my 9:04 a.m. post this morning.
I was attempting to reach out, but the dialogue got too negative between several bloggers.
I think with RD (and anybody else) the only way to communicate with him is to be non-aggressive, even if we don’t agree with each other. Being aggressive will not always change somebody’s mind, it will actually cause retaliation of words.
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Monique,
I didn’t mean to isolate RD either, I think most of us were fairly aggressive.
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Mark
You asked – @ MARCH 22, 2013 @ 8:26 AM…
“When it starts to become personal who becomes glorified
the Father in Heaven or Satan.” And that’s a reasonable question.
Well, there was a serious “Personal Attack” against Joseph by his brothers.
Joseph was God’s man of faith and power. And Joseph dreamed a dream – Ouch!!!
Joseph winds up – In the Pits – Sold into slavery – “Slandered” – In prison, an ugly, dirty, smelly prison. – Etc.. – And before he knew it, only a few decades later, he is fulfilling Gods vision to him for ruling over his brothers.
How glorious to be chosen by God and the favorite of his father. 😉
And after ALL that pain – hate, jealousy and deception from his brothers – separation from his family – “Slander” accused of rape – Prison time – There was a benefit. 🙂
Joseph says to his brothers…
Gen 45:7-8
And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth,
and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God:…
Gen 50:20-21
But as for you,
**ye thought evil against me;**
***but God meant it unto good,***
Wow – BUT God – Don’t ya just love it when the Bible publishes – **BUT God**
So, Mark, in this case…
“who becomes glorified the Father in Heaven or Satan?”
Yeah – sometimes it looks like Satan is getting the best of us – **BUT God**
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come,
who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness,
and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts:
and then shall every man have praise of God.
1 Cor 4:5
We have a hope – Christ in us – the hope of Glory… 😉
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Mark, I appreciate your comments. I have seen you trying to get R.D.’s attention and I find it peculiar that he has not addressed your clear concerns. R.D., I’m sure you are reading. Can you please address his comment?
I also think that Ed had some very good points that were completely ignored. Part of communicating is being able to get beyond the emotions and look for the real message. If R.D. has been in some sort of counseling ministry longer than I’ve been alive – and that’s almost half a century, I think R.D. is fully capable of addressing some of those issues. Gary W. also addressed this issue with R.D. to no avail.
But you are right, Mark – it definitely got a little heated – people got frustrated on both sides. When I get a chance, I’m going to look over my words and see how I contributed to the downward spiral. I am no saint, that is for sure.
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Amos – – The Joseph story is probably one of my all-time favorites and when naming our 5 boys, I was greatly disturbed that we could not use that name (because of our last name).
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@Mark,
You said (in regards to R.D.):
Keeping that in mind, how does he counsel the victims who are going to be combative (and rightfully so) if he gets so flustered at us? If how he treats us is reflective of his “counseling”, then he is the problem to healing. He isn’t helping, he is compounding.
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Julie Anne,
I think you’re right in that RD is capable of responding. I think he chose to take a step back as he was probably spending a lot of time, addressing a lot of postings and when it got too testy, it burned him out.
(I probably would’ve done the same thing if I was part of either responding or reviewing 200 or so postings)
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JA, oh I laughed so hard at your Joseph story. I am still laughing.
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Ed. You can stop laughing now. It’s sad. Every time I hear the name Joseph I am in mourning that one of my sons could not have that name because of that guy.
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Per RD’s latest comments:
I honestly can’t see where Julie Anne did this. Julie Anne said this about Judah’s statement that he doesn’t like most Christians:
Saying you understand why someone is saying/doing something does not mean you agree with why they are saying/doing that thing. I can understand why someone would want to go around fornicating but that doesn’t mean I agree with that decision, and I certainly wouldn’t recommend that course of action. And frankly the Apostle James doesn’t “appreciate” people who use the Christian name but don’t show evidence of it in their life, either (James 2:14-26).
Now that does not mean that Judah’s current beliefs about the majority of Christians are fair. They’re not and yes, we should encourage him to see past the failures of his Christian brothers and sisters. And I don’t agree with him that most Christians are “phoney baloney.” But simply saying that you understand how a person got to where they are is not affirmation. I can logically understand the arguments for atheism, too, but merely saying that does not mean I’m affirming someone’s atheism. And the “phoney baloney” Christians need to be called out just as much as the person who unfairly judges all Christians based on the “phoney baloney” ones.
Sorry, RD, but IMO you overreacted to this one. I think Julie Anne is genuinely trying to understand you but unfortunately your comment at 5:43 seems to me to be the internet equivalent of huffing out of the room.
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chapmaned24,
Respectfully, I couldn’t keep up with the dialogue because many of the postings were lengthy and testy.
I guess, I was more focused connecting Doctrinal Indifference and Spiritual Abuse together, which I think is partly the reason this blog is in existance today. (no disrespect Julie Anne, as I’m guessing again)
I had a chance to ask some tough questions to “a live 4 Point Calvinist” and I was looking for some insight but thta opportunity kind of slipped away.
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Mark, I understand you point, believe me, I do.
The night before last, I got home at 11:30 pm and there was 69 comments that I saw in my email. I was already tired, but I did read each and every one of them. By the time that I got finished with my few comments, it was about 3 in the morning. I ended up sleeping most of yesterday away. But even when I woke up, the conversation was still going on. I can at least say, that my comments are few, not many. And even in the few, I was pretty much ignored anyway, until close to the very end last night. Therefore, I do not feel that I was the distraction, since he ignored me anyway. So it goes much deeper than my critique to him.
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chapmaned24,
I think RD was distracted by everybody as he was getting pounded with so many postings.
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And he was getting pounded rightfully so. How does he react to combative victims? If he has been in the business of counseling victims of spiritual abuse longer than Julie Anne has been alive, I would assume that he is very close to at least 70 years old or above. I am making that assumption based on beginning a four year college at 18, beginning his counseling at maybe at minimum of age 22? Well, 22 plus 48 is 70. But I think that a 22 year old is much too young to understand spiritual abuse, so maybe he is close to 80 or 90? That is supposing that he has been doing this longer than Julie Anne has been alive, as he stated. Therefore, I see deception in this leader. Follow him? Not!
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chapmaned24,
I didn’t follow all the postings. I kind of jumped in the conversation about half-way into this post. As for his age you may be right. (I do believe in fresh starts even for Calvinist)
I was simply focused on how Doctrinal Indifference and Spiritual Abuse are connected. I was eventually going to ask him what part of Calvinism does he refute. Some Calvinist actually stop being Calvinist once they start refuting parts of Calvinism.
I realize I’m not the only person in this blog, and the kind of questions I wanted to ask were going to involve several responses back and forth.
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Welcome to any new readers who are here for the first time via Homeschoolers Anonymous (HA). Today this blog article was cross-posted on the HA site and has since been “reblogged” a few times as far as I can tell. If you are new, I’d love to hear from you!
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A. Amos Love, You are the real deal, thank-you for your kind words, the blessing is mutual. Are you really A.Amos Love? What I mean is, I could have sworn that it was Jesus talking to me in our exchange. ( :
As for a new name, I don’t know if this will make any sense, but there is a part of me that is still scared, I expect someone to jump down my throat for talking about what I experienced. Kinda what I sensed was happening here earlier in this thread. It is all very confusing because I have been out of that community for ten years, but the damage that was done is still palpable. I just discovered SSB & TWW several months ago and it blew me away that I kept hearing some of my story through the words of others…
Also to Chapmaned 24, You made this conversation feel safe for me. I love the way you had Julie Anne’s back, though she has strong backbone and was being a fantastic gatekeeper for us sheep who are easily spooked. Thank-You.
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Scared,
You are so very welcome. This place is for you, and needs to be safe. This blog is extremely important, and Julie Anne has support from several great people, not only on this blog, but others as well. Oh, and I know that red heads can handle things quite well, lol.
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You are right, Ed, this blog would not be here without the many who support and pray for me behind the scenes. You can be sure of that. And as far as the redhead thing – yes, I have a tough facade, but behind that is a very tender heart for abused.
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” And as far as the redhead thing – yes, I have a tough facade, but behind that is a very tender heart for abused.” That is obvious Julie Anne, you are loved.
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Opps, it is obvious that you have a tender heart for the abused.
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Interested Party — I loved your whole comment up at the 1:35 a.m. mark. That was beautiful, and I agree with your assessment of JA’s Great Work whole-heartedly. Your Jewish perspective is very interesting to me as well.
Hester — Your remark at 4:35 a.m. about the importance of gaining the trust of the suffering was spot-on. People can’t see Jesus except through us. Until those who’ve been abused know that they can trust some of Christ’s people, they’ll probably never come around to trusting Him.
For all his experience and expertise, I wonder whether R.D. has ever suffered the kind of abuse discussed here.
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Serving in Japan said:
That’s a good question, Serving. I’ve run into quite a lot of people similar to R.D. and when asked, none of them had ever experienced the kind of abuse we talk about here.
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