Train up a child in the way he should go:
and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6
You see that verse? Probably every homeschool parent heard that verse too many times to count throughout their homeschooling years. It was engrained in us. We did not want our children to depart from “the way they should go” and the solution was to “train” our children. At least that’s what they told us.
Ever since my spiritual abuse journey, I have been trying to figure out what led our family to that spiritually abusive church and pastor who sued us in an attempt to discover who our primary influencers were over the years. I found that the most influential people in the last couple of decades have been leaders in the homeschool movement who had a spiritual agenda, not necessarily an educational agenda. We have been taught so strongly to “train our children” and some of us did that quite well. We created little obedient and compliant robot children who were polite, respected authority and looked really good in church all lined up in a pew. People always commended us on our beautiful large family.
These influencers not only taught us how to parent, but taught us what they thought was very important: large families, courtship, modesty and purity, fathers as spiritual heads/priest of the home, mothers as hard-working submissive wives, preparing wholesome meals from homegrown gardens, grinding wheat to make whole grain breads. The boys were taught how to be boys, play like boys, work like boys, helping their fathers in projects around the house. Daughters learned traditional homemaking skills that would last them a lifetime when they got married and started families of their own, because that was their ultimate lot in life. Yes, in many homeschooling families, daughters were discouraged and even forbidden from going to college for any higher level education, they were to stay at home serving dad and their family while they waited to be courted by a young man approved by their father. True to the homeschooling culture, I did own a denim jumper or two, and I sewed matching jumpers for my daughters who were 7 years apart in age. My five boys may thank me that they never had matching homeschool uniforms like khaki slacks and polo shirts, but they did manage to always match by having jeans with holes in the knees.
Not only did we raise good obedient children, we invested in our children and pushed them towards educational excellence. We made sure they were well-versed on the popular homeschool-movement agendas which we adopted as our own: they knew how to debate creation vs evolution, they were politically involved in their communities, worked on political campaigns, participated in speech and debate classes and competitions, attended worldview conferences, and went on missions trips. In my family, our kids knew how to evangelize the “right way,” how to defend their faith, and knew the tenants of 5-pt Calvinism inside and out. Homeschooled students were good students, usually testing years ahead of their peers. They were accomplished in music, sports, volunteered at Crisis Pregnancy Centers, lobbying at the capital for homeschooling rights, etc. What more could we ask for?
* * *
* * *
What many are finding out is that those brilliant robots, when released to the real world, start questioning where they came from, what they believed, where they are going. This is a normal response for young adults. But I’ve seeing a disturbing trend especially among young adults who were raised in this kind of environment. Many of these “trained” adult kids are now venturing 180 degrees in the opposite direction, perhaps in response to the controlled environment in which they were raised, some suffering a host of problems similar to what spiritual abuse victims experience that I deal with so often: mental health issues, addiction issues, etc. There is a lot of heartache among this group.
I feel very responsible for buying into this garbage. I will continue to speak out against disturbing aspects of the homeschool movement on my blog. It takes a lot of emotional energy to work up one of these posts because it means I have to admit my failure. Of course my blog will also continue to be a platform for these precious young adults. I believe in a way that some of us parents were cult leaders in our families. We were fed an agenda by those home school leaders. We believed it. We saw their perfect families and wanted to emulate what we saw and expected that kind of obedience and educational excellence from our children. We trained them alright.
* * *
* * *
Not too long ago, I was asked if I would like to partner with others in a new blog called Homeschool Anonymous. I was thrilled to be asked because I have attempted to use my blog as a Spiritual Sounding Board to the abuses that I’ve noticed in the homeschooling movement. Most of the participants in the Homeschool Anonymous blog are former homeschool students, and two of us have been (or currently are) homeschool moms. Interestingly, you will notice that many of the blog participants no longer connect with their Christian heritage. I think conservative homeschoolers will find this shocking. In fact I admit that I am afraid to post about this on my private Facebook page because I have easily 300+ homeschooling friends/moms who might be pretty upset if I mention this big homeschooling secret: some of our adult kids have departed from the way in which we trained them.
I have long ditched my homeschool mom uniform, the denim jumper. I refuse to go to state-run Christian homeschooling conferences whose conference leaders get to hand-select vendors and speakers based on their approved religious agenda. So as I continue to teach our last two kiddos at home, those destructive religious-agenda influences play no part in our homeschooling anymore.
So yes, I am partnering with R.L. Stollar who is an amazing individual and new friend who was completely homeschooled and put together this group. I have so much respect for what he is doing to help his peers walk through their homeschool journeys and the aftermath or perhaps fallout. I hope Homeschool Anonymous reaches many former homeschooled students and parents and that our collective voices will be heard and considered. It’s never too late, right? Oh my, parenting is a humbling journey – so, so humbling.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Thank you, Stollar!
and sincere blessings to H*A as you rally against the abuses abounding in homeschooling cultures. Blessings!
Godspeed. .
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I suspect the confusion comes from the name: Homeschoolers Anonymous
It gives the impression it’s declaring all homeschooling is bad.
Glad HA exists for people to be able to tell their stories. It’s up to us what we do with the info. I hope the info empowers people to take an honest look at what drives what they are doing, what is good and what is not so good. Abuse simply has to be acknowledged and thrown out completely!
I apologize a lot to my kids!
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R.D. said,
“For you, sin can only be in one direction. You will never help the abused with that perspective, nor will you when you mock positive steps from leaders instead of encourage them. You are far too strident and off balance to bring about real change. That’s too bad.”
To me, it’s clear there is sin on all sides of the equation, but the two sides are in no way equal. Seems the side that must have our attention first is the side that is abusive, in power, responsible, and unrepentant. The other side that has been given no voice, mercilessly controlled, provoked to wrath, damaged, and confused, is not the side to focus corrective speeches.
It’s like Jesus with the Pharisees … he called them a “brood of vipers” an other harsh reproofs; while he was gentle and loving, meeting needs with the woman at the well. Yes, Jesus did tell her to go and sin no more, but the approach had an entirely different flavor to it.
In the context of abused former homeschoolers, I’d suggest it takes time. I would not hand out a “go and sin no more” at first meeting in this context online. I think these adult kids need to be loved and accepted … they already know we wish they were not doing things that we know will ultimately cost them dearly.
So R.D., I think we have the same goals, to see these abused kids restored to wholeness, healed, and able to see God as He is and not as they were taught to see Him. We want them to feel value and deeply, unconditionally loved. I just think this requires loving them like this and dealing with the real issue of their abusers, first. They already know so much, that I would not have to say any words to tell them that fornication or adultery is sin and destructive. As we love them, they will see God again, and they will know what to do.
I want to communicate this message in actions … and if I absolutely have to, then I’ll use words.
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RD and Julie Anne,
The dialogue is healthy although Homeschooling or Private Education is complicated especially when you have several personal and several Doctrinally led interpretations of how our kids should be educated.
Then you have unqualified and unstable people teaching their kids and abusive behavior in the mix, making things more complicated.
Rather than being suspicious of one another opinions maybe we should explore responding to each other out of “Love” rather than out of frustration when difference of opinion or misunderstandings arise.
I do have one question for R.D. as I think he has attempted to express himself in a thoughtful manner.
R.D. do you prescribe yourself as a Baptist that leans more toward Calvinism, Arminianism or neither?
Whatever doctrine you embrace is where you are led at this time, but in asking this question and knowing that there are several Doctrines within the Baptist School and other Christian Faiths that profess the Gospel, it is partly why their is strife and abuse even among Christians.
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Katie,
I don’t think I disagree with anything you said. Thank you. Once again, I will say, for clarity’s sake, I am not recommending a “go and sin no more” method at the first meeting. I made that clear in depth quite early on in this discussion.
But I appreciate your ability to read carefully and seek understanding
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Gary, I will try once more. If you can’t understand language, I’m lost. Sorry.
You said, “Excuse me? A discussion on love is unbiblical?”
Then you quote me saying: “Finally, the whole discussion on love that followed while I had work to do is so unbiblical that it is fruitless to even go there.” That is what I said.
And you say: “You clearly said that the whole discussion on love was unbiblical. If you think I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say, maybe you would like to explain yourself. That would be legitimate.”
Now look at those sentences again…carefully. I said “the whole discussion on love was unbiblical…” referring obviously to the very discussion occurring at this place and time on this blog, but you claim I said “A discussion on love is unbiblical.” as though ANY discussion on love is unbiblical. Your words couldn’t mean anything but that.
If that is not misrepresentation, it doesn’t exist. Let me ask you, is it possible in the course of humanity for a discussion of love to be unbiblical? As in people talking about love, but not correctly defining it or explaining as Scripture does? Is that possible? If you acknowledge it is possible, then you agree that “a discussion about love” can be unbiblical.
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Monique
You said, quoting me:
A curse? It’s a curse to tell someone their methods are out of balance? Now why did I say what I said? Is it because Julie Anne said: “And regarding the business of delighting in sin – it seems to me the ones who are delighting in sin are the ones who fail to look honestly at themselves and how they raised their children and instead point fingers at these young adults who are struggling and trying to make sense of the high-controlling, authoritarian, legalistic environment in which they were raised”? Yes, that is why I said it.
She has in this statement cut off all possibility of considering that some of these victims promoting unbelief can be delighting in sin. I believe she is wrong. Being a victim does not make one free of a fallen nature, and sinful responses.
Now don’t get all bound up and say, “See! You’re blaming the victim for not being godly and forgiving right away! You’re just like so-and-so!!” No, I never said such a thing. I said these people can turn away from God and delight in sin and have sinful responses and still need Jesus. My concern is their salvation.
It also doesn’t matter to me what the founder of H. A. claims. If he is not a believer, his perspective is warped, and he cannot see what is happening on the site spiritually. When I look at the broad common elements of the testimonies there, they support modes of thinking, and from what I am seeing, almost universally, a perspective that is against Christianity.
My whole point is that it would be spiritually dangerous to promote or point people with damaged faith or doubts to such a place. If there was a website that included testimonies of abuse and redemption through Christ, that would be fine.
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Mark, I appreciate your question. I follow the New Hampshire Baptist Confession, which is considered mildly Calvinistic. I think you would call me a 4-pointer. I personally don’t see the connection between that and this discussion. i have many good Arminian friends as well as 5-point friends. It has never been a barrier to fellowship for me. How do you see theological disagreement as related to abuse? Is it the vehemence with which these things are sometimes argued?
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“If [HA] were as you described, there would be positive testimonies about Christ in the mix. They’re not there.”
This person seems to still be a Christian on the other side of her experience. I fully expect there will be more Christians “in the mix” as the site continues to grow. The site seems to be about homeschooling experiences, not religion or a lack thereof.
https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/becoming-my-own-person-judahs-story/
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Julie Ann,
I mean healing as in in a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, the healing that will one day transcend all struggles and pain. Emotional healing is wonderful, but if one feels good and rejects Christ, it has no benefit.
Sorry for taking up so much space here. I felt some of you deserved a response. I think I’m done. Whew!
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R.D. –
I can only say that the stories that are being posted are from the perspective of a person who was raised in their home. Understanding that also means that we must consider that everyone who grows up in a family will have a different perspective of how their family life operated. So, yes, the stories will be one-sided perspective within their family unit, however, it’s still their story and it is very important.
A good example in my own life is my mother’s family. Being one of three girls, all three are so opposite of each other it’s amazing to think that they were raised under the same roof. I’m sure that my children will have a different view of their childhood years as a homeschooled student than I will.
I read “Judah’s” story today. At the end he says, “Today I fully believe in God and Christ and everything the Bible teaches.” Clearly, not all of the HKs will abandon their faith in God, but, some will. This can be true of any child raised in any religious home. They will either continue the walk of their faith or they will abandon it.
I don’t believe that HA has an agenda to be anti-Christian or anti-homeschooling. The site is mainly a tool to be used to tell people’s stories. We may not like to read that someone has abandoned their faith in God, but it’s still important to let people tell their story.
Plus, I think that opening up a site like this is an important way for people to see the inside of the Christian homeschool movement. While I am a Christian, and I homeschool, I don’t subscribe to the Christian homeschool culture. And, yes, there is a culture. One only has to go to a state Christian homeschool convention to see it.
I do believe that the adults who grew up in Christian homeschooled environments understand the sin that is in their lives. I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to point that out, but, to continually beat it over their heads doesn’t help matters. It only proves their point in their minds, that Christians are more concerned about sin than the person. Just my $.02 worth.
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Ok. I’m reading this sitting on a yellow school bus on the way to a high school choral competition and have to comment. I’m on my iPhone and the bus is moving, but did he just spell my name without the “E”? Lol.
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Just one more thing before I go…
I do think RD has a point in that it could be important for people looking for a way out of the Bubble (my term for Christian homeschool culture) to know that you don’t have to abandon Christianity to reject that culture. And yes, many of the sites critiquing the Bubble are at present run by non-Christians. However, like I said above, HA appears to not to be anti-Christian, plus it just started so we’re seeing a fairly limited “sample size” at the moment. As I said before, I fully expect more Christian “survivors” to submit their stories to the site and the pool of perspectives will grow. So yes, it is very important that there be Christian voices in this conversation (part of why I finally started my own blog), but I think calling HA “anti-Christian” or “anti-religious” is going too far.
For the record, I was homeschooled all the way but my parents were not crazed isolationists, abusers, etc. So I don’t think of myself as a “survivor” of anything.
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RD,
You said:
“You will never help the abused”, and “You are far too strident and off balance to bring about real change”.
Notice the “never” in that first quote. This is more than just expressing your opinion that her methods are out of balance.
Also, I don’t see where she has “cut off all possibility of considering that some of these victims promoting unbelief can be delighting in sin.”
Again, you use the word “all possibility”. I don’t see that in her response to you.
You said:
“Being a victim does not make one free of a fallen nature, and sinful responses.”
I don’t see where anyone has stated this or implied this.
Please don’t attribute reactions from me. You said:
“Now don’t get all bound up and say, “See! You’re blaming the victim for not being godly and forgiving right away! You’re just like so-and-so!!”.
You don’t know me well enough to do that.
You should rethink using “never” and “all” in your statements.
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R.A.: Your previous post indicates that you are finished commenting. Maybe the heat has gotten to be too much for you? Why is it that, in my experience, Baptist and Baptist-type preachers tend to cut off discussion when they have difficulty answering hard questions? Still, on the off chance that you are willing to remain engaged, I continue to maintain that you said what you said about the discussion of love being unbiblical–and that you said it in the manner you said it. You now tell us that it was not the discussion, but the content of the discussion, that was unbiblical. Well, maybe, but maybe also you were simply tossing a rhetorical hand grenade in an attempt to discount the validity of assertions with which you disagree. Maybe you were taking a cheap shot in an attempt to win debating points without having to go into specifics. And maybe my suspicions are unfounded. Please, if you will, tell us what statements, specifically, you refer to in positing that the (content of) the “whole discussion on love” was unbiblical? And please, quote the offending statements verbatim. I am not interested in your potentially twisted characterizations or paraphrases of what was said that you find unbiblical. Then, after you have quoted each supposedly offending statement, please cite the specific Scripture transgressed by the statement. You have a Masters degree, so I am confident you can rise to the challenge.
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Hester, you can be sure that I will keep all these comments in mind when I write homeschooling articles. I brought up the subject that the majority of current contributors had left the environments from which they were raised. That says something.
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R.D.
If Arminians and Calvinist rotate from one church to the next and they are stealth or covert about disclosing their Doctrine and the Congregation can identify they were being endoctrinated differently than their former Pastor, it will in fact create strife and in some cases retaliation either by the Congregation or by the Pastor. (especially if you have a Pastor consumed with “Election Theology” and hiding his Doctrine)
This scenarial as it is currently happening in the SBC.
How our kids are being endoctrinated, in Church, School and Home will effect and could confuse them if 2 or all 3 are different.
There is confusion in the SBC even among the many dialects of Calvinist, Arminians and even non-Calvinist and non-Arminians but profess the Gospel. They can’t come up with a concensus to what they believe. If the Biblical Intellectuals can’t agree they end up spreading confusion into our churches.
You may be comfortable having your kids endoctrinated as an Arminian, but I’m not so sure most 4 or 5 Point Calvinist would be comfortable with that without getting into a debate, that may end up heated.
If the Church you attend encourages you to place your kids in their Private School or Home School using their recomended Material and Methodology, that fits their critiria and you don’t understand the Doctrine of the Church you are attending, you will have problems.
I have a feeling like you and your 5 Point Calvinist and Arminian Friends, there may be people in this blog that come from different Churches that may claim to be Calvinist, Arminian or neither. Some in this blog like in many churches don’t know the difference.
I have also have witnessed a Stealth (or Covert) Hyper Theological Preacher who is consumed with “Election or Judge Theology” that have taken a rather abusive interpretation of scriptures that is more “Law and Sin Centered” rather than “Christ Centered” with little or no redemptive language.
(He Elected to suggest you could be doing everything right and still not be saved, offering no redemptative language through Christ or repentence)
The vehemence or intensity of this discussion are by people like you, me and anybody else that profess the Gospel, but haven’t walked in each other shoes. It would be unfair for me to question your sincerity or anybody else here.
The one thing I’m trying to suggest is for readers in this blog and other blogs is to ask and understand the true Doctrine of the Church and their Pastor. If I had done this from the beginning of my former Pastor’s tenure, I would not have experienced retaliation by my former Pastor, when I seeked to understand his Methodology, which he refused to fully disclose, even to the other elder’s of the Church.
I think the difference of Doctrinal Beliefs Christians have very much effects the relationships Christians should be having. I’m sure you have taught 1 Corinthians 13 several times as a Pastor of your church. But I caught say it is taught enough in other churches judging by the way Christians treat each other.
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Gary, Sorry. I said I’d try one more time. if you don’t know what you did, or the difference between “a discussion” and “this discussion” I can’t have a conversation with you. You seem genuinely unable to comprehend.
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Monique, you are correct. “Never” and “all” are seldom helpful in a discussion. As to the rest, I stand by what I said. I think it is very unwise, and potentially eternally harmful to point troubled or damaged souls to a site like H.A.
Julie AnnE calls the relation with H. A. a partnering. I will risk asking thoughtful Christian readers to meditate on 2 Cor 6:14-15. I can read there with profit, and maybe you can, but a waivering, wounded saint should not be directed there. It would be…unloving.
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RD,
@ 1:19 p.m. I sent you a response to your 12:01 p.m. question when you asked about the relevence of Doctrinal Indifference and the effect it has in Churches, Private Schools, Home Schooling and our kids. (paraphrased)
I think Doctrinal Indifference unfortuniately can be a recipe for retaliation and abuse for Parents and Kids alike, especially if we exclude reading 1 Corinthians 13. (Love Chapter)
Judging how Christians who profess the Gospel among the Calvinist, Arminians and those who don’t profess either Doctrine and the way they treat each other, we may need to add that chapter back into our devotions.
I thought you asked a good question. I hope the answer I gave you @1:19 p.m. is clear, even though I had a couple of typo’s.
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Mark,
I have seen what you described. It can be an awful mess. Obviously, you are right about 1 Cor 13. And, yes, pastors and churches need to be always open and honest about their doctrinal convictions. Subterfuge is sin.
There needs to be mutual repsect in the sphere of Christian orthodoxy, but it gets more difficult in a local church without a clear doctrinal standard. That’s one reason I believe in a fairly full doctrinal statement in a local church. (I’m assuming it’s adopted by common consent of all) Everyone is accountable to the one standard.
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Now I believe I have used up enough of everyone’s time, and more than a few’s patience. Be blessed.
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RD,
It very much effects Kids, Private and Home Schools.
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RD,
Subterfuge? (@ 3:00) You are sharpening my vocabulary. Many blessings.
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R.D.: Well, O.K. I have invited you to delineate exactly what particular statements in the particular discussion on love are unbiblical. You have a Master’s Degree and, I’m sure, have the intellectual ability to respond to my challenge. You are simply choosing not to do so, thereby confirming my suspicion that, in saying “the whole discussion on love” was unbiblical (whether as a discussion generally, or in its particulars), you were tossing a rhetorical hand grenade, trying to score easy debating points or, I will now add, attempting to shut down the expression of opposing views by demonizing those with whom you disagree. I submit that, unless and until you are willing to provide specifics, including specific references to both the transgressing statements on love and the transgressed Scriptures, it is strong evidence that you are simply unable to do so based on the facts. Your evasion of my challenge on the basis of my supposed inability to comprehend further evidences an attempt on your part to avoid the fact that you, maybe, have been caught in a trap of your own making.
And one more point, at lest for now. You continue to capitalize the last letter of Julie Anne’s middle name. This comes across as mocking, snarky, provocative, and disrespectful. It is unbecoming of a pastor. You need to stop.
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Gary W,
I think part of why we are seeing the existance of sites like SSB, HA and Paul Passing Thoughts (outside of criminal behavior) is there is a tremendous amount of Doctrinal Indifference among Calvinist, Arminians and those more neutral but all who claim to profess the Gospel.
The Retaliation and Abuse that many bloggers have experienced still do not understand that Doctrinal Indifference could’ve been the culprit, which why they end up in sites like this.
Hopefully when we get on a site like this the abused will not only seek some refuge during their healing time but also become more aware of why they endured abuse in the first place. (in order to keep history from repeating itself)
In my case I had to get on my knee’s and ask for God to reveal to me what my former Pastor actually believed and dig into scriptures as part of my own healing process. When the Father answered my prayer I also believe he has guided me understand that I shouldn’t minimalize the deep rooted strife that exists among Christians when it comes to Doctrinal Indifference. (again so history won’t repeat itself)
It shouldn’t be surprising if it is happening in Churches, that it will happen in their Church sponsored Private School or their Church sponsored Home School programs using their recommended learning Material and their Methodologies.
To Parents and Kids who don’t know the actual Doctrine of the Church or Private School they attend, will be vulnerable to retaliation and abuse when they discover they don’t embrace the same Doctrine. (and believe me that matters)
When Pastor’s purposely “Subterfuge” their Doctrine, which is happening more than you may have ever considered, it is described as “Sin” by RD.
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@ the OP
Honestly, it (ie the creation of HA) doesn’t surprise me too much as we as a culture have been ingrained with the idea that life is formulaic. i.e. homeschooling + Christianized education = good Christian offspring.
Sad part is, life isn’t formulaic, and when you try to make it so, you end up doing massive amounts of damage because it so often ends up as legalism.
What’s hard to admit is that it takes God’s work in the hearts of kids in order for them to stay with the faith. But when a parent does that, I’ve seen it be a freeing thing for the parent, because then they don’t have to fear their responsibility to nurture their child in the admonition of the Lord (though “fear” may not be the right word, I think it comes close to describing the attitude of many Christian parents I’ve known who were worried about how they would handle the “tough questions” their kids might have when trying to teach them about the Scriptures).
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Sorry I’ve been out of the loop so long (though this conversation might be just about done anyway). I was asleep. Different time zone and all.
R.D., Christians need “sharpening”. Unbelievers do not. And I don’t think that those who are still wounded need to be challenged. They need to be understood.
And you certainly seemed to be dictating to JA. You told her, “You are not an ambassador if you have nothing to say to unbelief, or you don’t care about it.” From what I’ve seen, she cares very much about it. She makes no secret of the fact that she’s a Christian, and wants others to know Jesus. Anyone from HA can see that. And as she said above, there will be cross-posting between her site and theirs. How is that not being an ambassador? How is she not ‘doing it right’?
I know others have already mentioned this, but the HA site is still very new. It doesn’t surprise me that there is little Christian content there. Please give it time, sir. Also, those who are hurting need time to heal. Like Katie above, I want them to know God for who He is. But they need to know who they are before that can happen. We can’t force or rush that process. If a “wavering” abused believer should happen upon the stories at HA, at least they’ll know that they aren’t alone in their experiences, and that the earth won’t swallow them whole just because they have doubts.
And for the record, I find your response to Mr. Stollard’s declaration very insulting to him. He says clearly that HA is opposed only to abuse. Yet you refuse to take him at his word, just because he (or others at HA) aren’t Christian?
Apologies to all if I’ve gotten carried away. Or if I’m just flogging a dead horse. 😉
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And on it goes…
I never said unbelievers need sharpening.
Julie Anne said “So what of this person is not healed? What is the problem?” — I still can’t wrap my mind around that. It suggests to me a lack of care about something. Can you figure out what it is?
I never said I don’t take Stollard at his word. I said this: “It also doesn’t matter to me what the founder of H. A. claims. If he is not a believer, his perspective is warped, and he cannot see what is happening on the site spiritually.” Did I say I don’t take him at his word? No. I said he cannot understand the spiritual damage he might cause to believers. As an unbeliever, that is at least a non-issue to him, and likely he would prefer people follow his way if he thinks he’s right.
If y’all stop misrepresenting me, I’ll go away. Promise!
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RD quotes me here and says the bolded part: “And regarding the business of delighting in sin – it seems to me the ones who are delighting in sin are the ones who fail to look honestly at themselves and how they raised their children and instead point fingers at these young adults who are struggling and trying to make sense of the high-controlling, authoritarian, legalistic environment in which they were raised”? Yes, that is why I said it.
She has in this statement cut off all possibility of considering that some of these victims promoting unbelief can be delighting in sin. I believe she is wrong. Being a victim does not make one free of a fallen nature, and sinful responses.
Just because I didn’t mention in that quote that HK can be delighting in sin doesn’t mean I don’t believe they are sin. That’s a stretch, R.D. I’m not going to go through this whole thread again. Just trust me, I do believe that some are in sin – we all are in sin. But we have 2 issues going on here: one with parents and the other with HKs. I see you focusing on the HKs, but not the parents. That concerns me.
You mention that the site is promoting unbelief. Again, I already posted the quote from Stollar that said the only thing that is promoted is personal stories.
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Julie Anne, I accept your correction. When you say “The ones…” that is a narrowing to certain people. At least it reads that way.
And yes, I am focusing on the HKs. If you are focuing on the parents, and desiring to scare them off of home-schoolism (and I mean the questionable movement stuff), that makes sense. I still believe it is a danger for the HKs, and partnering with unbelievers is unwise.
Finally, i am going to blame my pinky for the missing E.
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RD,
Several commenters here have told you how condescending a number or your remarks sound. I even pointed out a few problem words (never and all) as well and appreciate your acknowledgement. But I wonder if you know how you come across? It’s hard to hear your main points through the condescending tone, at least for me personally. If you want examples, I can list those, but just reading through the comment thread you can see for yourself that a number of people have felt this way. These discussions can get pretty heated. Condescending tones and remarks just come across like a “noisy gong” or a “clanging symbol”.
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RD said: I mean healing as in in a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, the healing that will one day transcend all struggles and pain. Emotional healing is wonderful, but if one feels good and rejects Christ, it has no benefit.
This might explain why we are having some disconnect. It seems that the way you are looking at it is 100% Christ. I get that completely. I like this from Colossians: For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
When I read your ideas of connecting with them, what I can see happening is that they will say, “you are one of those” and they will walk away because they can smell Christian-ese. It didn’t work for them before. It left a nasty taste in their mouth and they aren’t going back and subject themselves to that. My prayer is that I can show the love of Christ, show them that I understand the ugliness of what has gone on in churches/homes.
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Sorry – this is out of order, but I had to laugh. RD said: “Finally, i am going to blame my pinky for the missing E.”
HAHAHA – Ok, I put my fingers on the home row keys and for the life of me, why do you need a pinky for the E? You should see my hands doing all these weird contortions trying to figure you out, R.D. LOL 🙂
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Julie Anne,
Many do respond to a loving approach pointing to them to Christ as I outlined early on. They do. Some don’t. Biblically, Jesus never just “sat with” or “loved without words.” Maybe we should at times, but He didn’t. He pointed to Himself, as He did with the woman at the well. I don’t think we should second guess what He did with our own ideas. That’s my view, take it or leave it. Denying Him to the wounded will not help them.
In fact, if you think about it, the Sermon on the Mount was preached to a large crowd, certainly containing spiritually abused people, but it bites.
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Monique, I accept your criticism. Now, objectively, you can’t see the same in others posting here?
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Earlier while on the bus, I read a comment from R.D. with a biblical reference saying that Christians shouldn’t be hanging with unbelievers. I’m too lazy to look through all of those posts. But let me just say: HA is a blog. I fail to see how that verse would apply in this situation. And besides, here is one comment that Kathi pointed out from Judah’s personal story that he said: “Today I fully believe in God and Christ and everything the Bible teaches.”
I’m not the lone Christian there. Remember the verse: where 2 or more are gathered . . . and you know the rest.
R.D., Christ is there on that blog because 2 of us are there. He can work on that blog if He chooses to. Why are you trying to interfere with that?
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Monique,
I think when there are people involved, it creates magnified opportunity for even the Spiritually Abused as well as Pastoral Contributors to have the appearence of being condescending.
I took it on the chin when I expressed accepting some personal responsibility for the Spiritual Abuse that I endured from a “Stealth or Convert” Hyper-Theological Pastor.
I heard a statement from a seasoned Preacher several years ago, it went something like this.
“The problem People have with People, is People”
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Julie Anne, not hanging with…partnering with. That’s the biblical term and your term. And I”ll say one more time, the overwhelming sense of the testimonies on that blog is that these people are free of Christianity. If you send or direct, or by happenstance wounded and weak believers spend a lot of time there, it’s like sending them to an atheist for spiritual direction.
I don’t mind you being there, especially if in some gentle but real way you point them to Christ, not just say, “Good job!” But you shouldn’t promote the site. I think it’s very wrong.
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R.D. – I get your point that many times a direct response to someone regarding the sin in their life can produce positive results. I’m sure it does happen from time to time. I’ve seen it fail more times than not with people who have been spiritually abused. Does it mean I’m going to rule it out as an option? No. Can we put a check mark on this and move on? 🙂
This sentence is still bugging me: I still believe it is a danger for the HKs, and partnering with unbelievers is unwise.
The first part – that you still believe it to be a danger – – well, it’s not like you can do anything about it – – they are adults, right?
And the partnering with unbelieverspart – I just established that there are 2 or more, so I’m safe now, right? But the partner word – – – all it means is that if there is a homeschooling post I write over here, then I have given Stollar permission to copy it verbatim and post it on HA. Do you have a problem with him taking my words about how we failed in certain aspects of homeschooling or strange teachings/practices (which may include talk of God/may have a Bible verse or two) from going on that site? Help me understand why this is troublesome to you?
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RD said: I don’t mind you being there, especially if in some gentle but real way you point them to Christ, not just say, “Good job!” But you shouldn’t promote the site. I think it’s very wrong.
Ok – I hear what you are saying on this and understand why you are saying it and thanks for sharing your concern. I’ll tuck it away, but for now, I’ll continue to “partner” with Mr. Stollar until God tells me otherwise.
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RD,
Of course it can go both ways, but from what I remember, most that seemed confrontational seemed to be defending Julie Anne. Many here were very gracious as well. Overall, I wouldn’t categorize the majority of the comments as condescending, although of course you will find some. I haven’t read through all the comments lately.
Yes, Mark I agree:
“The problem People have with People, is People”
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Serving – – – Bravo for this: R.D., Christians need “sharpening”. Unbelievers do not. And I don’t think that those who are still wounded need to be challenged. They need to be understood.
and this one right here: And for the record, I find your response to Mr. Stollard’s declaration very insulting to him. He says clearly that HA is opposed only to abuse. Yet you refuse to take him at his word, just because he (or others at HA) aren’t Christian?
I agree. Look at what has happened already – – -there’s already one ping back (and blog article) because of the discussion going on here. Heatherjanes wasn’t too happy with this conversation and rightly so! HA participants can easily come here and read this. I wonder what will they think when they see this exchange?
Does anyone notice that R.D. seems to have a pattern that things must go through in order for it to be the “right” or Christian way of doing things? If you don’t believe this way or deal with sin right away, then it’s not going to work? Where have we all heard this before? He says It’s not going to work because more unbelievers are there than believers. Oh you of little faith, R.D. There are 2 believers there! Where’s that faith like a mustard seed?
I do not for a minute regret my involvement with HA and actually having this exchange with RD convinces me that HKs are right when they can see all of this foolishness. It’s like RD thinks he can manipulate things to bring someone back to Christ by having that perfect Christian formula. Isn’t that putting God in a box? Or is it playing God?
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Julie Anne,
Have you ever heard of these Homeschool curriculum materials?
“Sonlight”
“Vision Forum”
“Veritas Press”
“Christian Library”
“QuiverFull”
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Julie Anne,
I asked RD to reveal his Doctrine @11:38 in a message address to you and him.
RD did in fact reveal his Doctrine to me @ 12:01.
I know you can’t possibly read everything but if you get a chance to read the dialogue between RD and Mark (that would be me) you will get a sense of where he and I are coming from.
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Hi Mark,
Sonlight and Veritas Press are homeschool programs. Sonlight has been popular among missionaries because you can buy the whole package and they will send it overseas. Veritas Press is a publishing company using the classical education method. There are connections with Doug Wilson, who ascribes to Patriarchal teachings which I find very dangerous. You couldn’t pay me to listen to Doug Wilson. I quoted him on a recent post about his view of men/women roles in sex: A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts. :::::pardon me while I gag::::
Quiver-Full is a term meaning that a couple has decided to let God control the size of the family. In other words, parents do not use any birth control, including Natural Family planning or abstaining, in order to have as many babies as God allows. I don’t know of any currucula by that name. Quiverfull is definitely part of the Homeschool Movement which has some dangerous teachings/leanings.
I’ve never heard of Christian Library. I’m wondering if you mean Christian Liberty? If so, Christian Liberty Academy is a school in IL. They offer a distance program and curricula for homeschoolers. There is a red flag with the founder of this group and it’s escaping me at the moment, but this was one of the earlier companies offering curricula to homeschoolers after the very popular homeschool publishing company, Abeka.
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Still trying to catch up, Mark I think I read R.D. would consider himself 4-pt Calvinist. I’ve been reading your comments to him and although not many have entered your subject of doctrine as it pertains to homeschooling issues, I think you have a good point. I suspect that most people who have been caught up in the Homeschool Movement would be labeled as Calvinist, if not Hyper-Calvinist because of the strong Reconstructionist influence in the Movement.
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“Julie Anne,
I meant to type “Christian Library Press”.
See what happens when I don’t finish a title?
Based on “Way of Life Literature Inc.” On http://www.wayoflife.org, they are Calvinist Homeschool curriculum. (with the exception of Quiverfull, although Quiverfull is used by some Hyper-Reformed)
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Julie Anne,
The point I’ve been making, is much of the strife is Doctrinal Indifference and it is going undiagnosed. Before I could have any kind of meaningful dialogue with RD or anybody else for that matter is asking what their Doctrine is.
Although I never did ask you what your Doctrine is. (I have a feeling you are not a 5 Point Hyper-Calvinist)
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Quiver-Full is curriculum? I did not know that. Your point is well-taken. It never would have dawned on me to research curriculum’s doctrinal stance 20 years ago. I didn’t know Arm./Calv then. Probably back then I thought the primary differences were pre-trib/post trib, charismatic/not charismatic!!! 🙂 I expected that if I went to a basic Christian homeschool convention that I could buy basic Christian curricula and that would be it. You are right – – – the doctrinal stuff was definitely in the curricula.
I never knew that all of the state-run Christian homeschooling conventions had Reconstructionist foundations and invited leaders with those leanings. I had no clue. I just thought “basic Christian.” It really makes me sick. So you think you’re “safe” in a “Christian” group, but they are saying you’re not the right kind of Christian until you do this and that.
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Mark – I’m in the process of figuring out where I am. I am certainly not 5 pt. I can’t go “there” right now. I’m sticking with basics and reading/praying, not worrying about Arminian or Calvin. To me, they are a distraction and they have caused a lot of problems.
Do you think Sonlight is Calvinist curricula? Do you have a link for the Fullquiver?
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Julie Anne said: “Does anyone notice that R.D. seems to have a pattern that things must go through in order for it to be the “right” or Christian way of doing things? If you don’t believe this way or deal with sin right away, then it’s not going to work? Where have we all heard this before? He says It’s not going to work because more unbelievers are there than believers. Oh you of little faith, R.D. There are 2 believers there! Where’s that faith like a mustard seed?”
I didn’t get this from his posts. Maybe that’s because I am not emotionally involved in the discussion and that I was never involved in homeschooling that I have seen the exchange differently. I never saw him say that about it not going to work because there were more unbelievers. I did see a couple things from him that would have been best to have re-worded, but I also saw that in some of your posts and those of a couple others. It can be hard when one is passionate about a subject, for them to read what appears to be criticism.
What I did see was his concern of referring people to a place where he feels it is operated by non-Christians and how they would not be involved in helping anyone in their walk with God (simply because they no longer place their faith in Jesus) and because of their unbelief, it is possible that those going there who have not yet sorted through issues might be influenced to question or leave their own faith. His point didn’t seem to be you helping there, but rather you promoting and referring people there.
I relate to his thought in that area due to the site I operate. I try to be careful in the places I share as other potential sources of help. Years back, I had to stop mentioning one place that started tearing apart the Bible. When people have been hurt spiritually in an unhealthy church, they have more than enough to deal with in sorting through all those issues and the teachings without having anyone call into question the Bible, God, etc. When someone is in that place and may already be angry at God for what happened to them at the unhealthy church, they are in a vulnerable place and don’t need to be hit with things like that on top of it all.
The worst thing that is a result of spiritual abuse are those who do end up walking away from God. I believe this is RD’s concern.
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Mark: Your comment of 4:55 is addressed to me. I suspect that you had somebody else in mind, possibly R.D. Regardless, you make very good points about knowing where a particular church organization and its leadership stand on doctrinal differences, and the warning against doctrinal indifference is a good one. For now, at least, there is every appearance that divisions over doctrinal differences contribute to the thwarting of the answer to Jesus’ John 17 prayer for our unity. I recently experimented with participating in a fellowship where everybody knew from the get go that I disagreed with certain elements of the denomination’s written doctrinal position. Mutual respect was maintained for awhile, but there was eventually a falling out. Interestingly, the falling out did not occur over a point on which there were differences that could be identified from reading the written statement of faith. Rather, it was over something that was a matter of private conviction on the part of the pastor. I made a statement to the effect that if a Christian has unrecognized and unrepented sin in their life, there is a need to come to recognition and repentance. It took some time to recognize the fact, but I was marginalized by the pastor from that point on. The pastor apparently had strong beliefs that if a person has been born again, and especially if they have received the baptism in the Holy Spirit as evidence by speaking in tongues, there can be no further need to recognize and repent of sin. Well, O.K., apparently some in this particular denomination hold the Pastor’s views on the matter. However, since the issue is not addressed in the denomination’s written statement of faith, there probably was nothing either the pastor or I could have done to recognize the issue in advance.
It is all very frustrating. I wonder how it would work if the Bible were the only statement of faith for a congregation. I don’t know. What I do know is that our Lord’s prayer for our unity will be answered. In the meantime, I suggest that maybe, just maybe, to practice love is to know Jesus. After all, God is Love.
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Thank you, Lois. I appreciate your perspective and will probably read it a couple more times. I am tired after a busy day at choir competition and also it is an emotional topic, so you raise some valid points.
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Julie Anne wrote: “Mark – I’m in the process of figuring out where I am. I am certainly not 5 pt. I can’t go “there” right now. I’m sticking with basics and reading/praying, not worrying about Arminian or Calvin.”
Sounds like a good subject for a blog post. 🙂 (Not the Arminian/Calvin part.)
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I have not read all the commentary – but one thing I’d like to add…I have always had issue with the way that verse was used. That it was a guarantee that “training your children in the way they should go” meant training them in the way YOU Want them to go, is a very wrong interpretation. The way I see that verse is this – All of us are different and have different directions and callings in our lives. Each of our children also has a different direction and calling on their life. If we train each in the way he/she should go ie: according the the specific calling for them, then they won’t depart from it because it’s the path picked out for them by God! So I need to train one son to go in one direction, while I train my daughter for a different direction. and yet another son ins a completely different direcion, Ordained by God, not me or their father, or our pastor…….of course I’m going to train them all to seek and Love the Lord with all their might, but beyond that life looks different for them all.
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Lois: No way!! 🙂 Not going to touch it. LOL
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Julie Anne,
I googled Calvinist Homeschool Curriculum and http://www.wayoflife.org popped up. Listing some Calvinist Homeschool Curriculum.
As you know my focus is more structurally based and less personal when it comes to Doctrinal Indifference Although when strife occurs it becomes very personal.
Outside of Criminal Mis-Conduct and Sin, Doctrinal Indifference is the source of Abuse and Strife within Churches. Although when a Pastor is purposely Stealth about his Doctrine, RD was bold enough to call that as Sin.
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Julie Anne says<
"Does anyone notice that R.D. seems to have a pattern that things must go through in order for it to be the "right" or Christian way of doing things? If you don't believe this way or deal with sin right away, then it's not going to work? Where have we all heard this before?"
I think you heard it from…maybe the Apostle Paul? Yes, I do plead guilty to believing that it's best to do things the right way. Who doesn't believe that? I also believe there is only one source of true healing for the victims.
"It's like RD thinks he can manipulate things to bring someone back to Christ by having that perfect Christian formula. Isn't that putting God in a box? Or is it playing God?"
There you go again with your language. "Manipulate?" I said that? Implied that? Not in any way. I am saying there only hope is Christ. Do you believe that? If so, then identifying with them but not identifying or speaking for Him is not helpful. You think pointing people to Christ as the answer is putting God in the box, and this is foolishness? That's all I've said…and you dismiss it with words like formula and manipulate. We're talking about your Savior.
"And the partnering with unbelievers part – I just established that there are 2 or more, so I'm safe now, right? But the partner word – – – all it means is that if there is a homeschooling post I write over here, then I have given Stollar permission to copy it verbatim and post it on HA. Do you have a problem with him taking my words about how we failed in certain aspects of homeschooling or strange teachings/practices (which may include talk of God/may have a Bible verse or two) from going on that site? Help me understand why this is troublesome to you?"
Well, I think you that while you are ripping on fellow believers for their failings ( most of them with good intentions), you might say a positive word or two about the Lord Jesus…maybe each time you attack the brethren you could put in a good word for Christ…not as a club against those you dismess, but as a hope for the victims. Consider this, please. Wow, I almost quoted a Scripture, but you would perceive it as putting God in a box. I see it as His way of guiding us.
By the way, Heather over at H.A. is playing you like a fiddle.
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Gary W,
I am focused on diagnosing and preventing why Spiritual Abuse occurs, whether it is Crime, Sin, Life Style or Doctrinal Indifference.
Being Spiritually Abused because of Doctrinal Indifference brought on by deception really messes with the mind. I could either do the research on my own so it doesn’t happen to me again or I could do nothing and make myself more vulnerable for additional abuse.
If I hadn’t prayed for the Father to give me some understanding I would’ve made myself more vulnerable.
I really wasn’t targeting anybody when I addressed you because RD was honest enough to disclose his Doctrine, which I had already suspected in reading some of his postings.
Much of the problems raised by the Spiritually abused simply didn’t know Doctrinal Indifference as a major issue. Study your Churches Doctrine.before making a commitment to becoming a member and you could eliminate a lot of pain.
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Mark wrote: “Study your Churches Doctrine.before making a commitment to becoming a member and you could eliminate a lot of pain.”
In healthy churches, this wouldn’t be a problem and I agree- know what a church believes, teaches and expects of you before joining. But in an unhealthy church, a person isn’t normally told everything upfront. They learn it as time goes on as they become slowly indoctrinated and fearful……
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Lois,
I’m not going to dispute what you are suggesting.
When one experiences being in a existing Non-Calvinist church within the SBC and a new Pastor who is purposely Stealth about his Doctrine and then attempts to indoctrinate an unsuspecting Congregation of not straying from the perimeters of TULIP, I would consider this deceitful.
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Admin question: Do you have any preference on having all comments on one page vs 50 comments per page (as it is now)? Pros/cons?
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i personally like having all comments on one page. .
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R.D. – Is that really all that you got out of Heather’s post – – – that she’s playing me like a fiddle? There’s so much more I want to respond to on your comment, but I need to do an attitude change first.
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Wowzers, this thread exploded!
RD, I can see how it appears that I misrepresented your quote, and that you were not wanting to put all the blame on victims, but rather to point out that they still have sin. And again, I agree in the sense that we all have sin. And in an ideal world, every one who is hurting would immediately look to Jesus for their healing.
Reading the responses on the thread, it appears that while you may have been misunderstood, you may also be misunderstanding where Julie Anne is coming from.
I hesitate to jump back in this thread, because it’s possible no one will see eye to eye and it seems pointless to debate endlessly. However, we are blessed to have to ability to do so freely, and I think it’s worth trying to hear one another out.
I get that our ultimate hope is in Jesus, and that it may seem as those not full healed in the sense of finding their hope in Him are wallowing in the hurts done to them. Where I disagree is that I think Jesus meets each of us where we are at, and that healing can be a loooong process. I don’t think it’s a sin to give people a safe space to process and be real. I think God ask exactly that of us- to be real and come with all our brokenness. Sometimes getting to the sin that’s inside ourselves takes a very long time, and if all a person is hearing is they need to repent, before their heart is healed from hurts done to them, they aren’t getting a full picture of who God is (just in regard to sin, yet merciful and relentless in His love).
What I observed in SG is a quickness of pastors to go past people’s stories and immediately discuss their sin, no matter how much sin had been committed against them. I don’t think Julie Anne is advocating for a different gospel, or for saying that people are not inherently sinful. It’s just that the churches these people have been a part of have skipped over the listening phase, the allowing people to cry and even be angry about injustice phase…
About the E on Julie Anne’s name, one must be careful not to dwell too much on the fault of the pinky finger slipping. At some point, it must be acknowledged that the pinky is part of the body, which is full of sin, and therefore has nothing else to blame but itself 😉
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R.D. said, “Finally, i am going to blame my pinky for the missing E.”
A proper typist knows that the E is typed with the left middle finger, not the pinky. Unless, of course, we are using a cell phone to type, or an iPad?
R.D., can you tell me what your sin nature is? When was the last time that you sinned? Since scripture states that for all have sinned, do tell. The reason that I am asking is that you seem to come across as if the only ones “in sin” are those who are in unbelief.
But wait a minute on that one. If you are a Calvinist, then you believe in election and predestination. So why are you worried about it in the first place? Those who God chose will come to belief, and those who God did not choose will remain in unbelief, right? God’s gonna do what God’s gonna do, right? So what are you getting all worked up if Calvin preaches election/predestination? The final outcome will be as God wills, right? If they are in unbelief, it is because that is what God wills, right?
Do you see how nutty that sounds? Just as others have pointed out, doctrines are not the same across the board. Confusion is what children are taught. And you wonder why people are in emotional pain “in sin”? You would be, too. Walk a mile in their shoes before you condemn the heart of people like Julie Anne. You are so self righteous it makes me sick to my stomach.
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Wow. Right way, wrong way, MY WAY. And of course, MY way is best. I wonder how many of you realize that one of the reasons nearly all of these cults, sects, denominations – one of those words will fit depending on your perspective, exist is because some man one day had an epiphany. It occurred to him on that day that the way he perceives the World and its people, the way that world and those people is reflected perfectly in his own considered interpretation of scripture – is GOD revealed! It became suddenly clear to him that GOD chose *him* (or *her*) to begin a movement, build a church, create a following, to spread this Newest Testament. And generally speaking, the “World and its people” will always be better off and “righteous” in the eyes of God if certain people can be convinced to know their place, especially if they are minorities and *specifically* if they are women. And then God will reward the World with blessings. Or Armageddon. I always forget which one comes first.
Read this blog, reading the linked sites. Seeing the absolute world of hurt, the pain, the resentment and bitterness, the attempts at healing, the failure to heal, the chasing of redemption, the chasing of the answer to the question, “why did you have to do this to me? Was breaking me that important to you? Were you doing it for my benefit or for yours?”. One would think that it would become obvious that any religious movement that causes such utter suffering and that so degrades and crushes both individual and family would be easily recognized and abandoned. And it never seems to happen that way. The World is full of men and women who feel God has revealed “The Way” and woe be to anyone who falls under their spell.
People are too easily persuaded that its not their suffering that matters – its their SIN that matters. Matters to whom? God, or men? As is obvious from this blog and the blogs of others who have suffered under this madness, the answer is, and always has been, men.
Man in a Purple Dress – The Who
How dare you wear a robe to preside
How dare you cover your head to hide
Your face from God
How dare you smile from behind your beard
To hide the fact your heart’s afeared,
And wave your rod
How dare you be the one to assess
Me, in this God-forsaken mess
You, a man, in a purple dress
A man in a purple dress
You are all the same
Gilded and absurd
Regal, fast to blame
Rulers by lost word
Men above men, or prats
With your high hats
You priest, you mullah so high
You pope, you wise rabbi
You’re invisible to me
Like vapour from the sea
How dare you? Do you think I’ll quietly go?
You are much braver than you know
For I can’t die
Your staff, your stick, your special cap
They’ll protect in Hell? What crap!
Believe the lie
How dare you be the one to assess
Me, in this God-forsaken mess
You, a man, in a purple dress
A man in a purple dress
When you place your frown
Between my God and prayer
However grand your crown
Or dignified your hair
Men above men, or prats
In your high hats
You priest, you mullah so high
You pope, you wise rabbi
You are invisible to me
Like vapour from the sea
I lovingly mock you noble lords
We all dress up to grant awards
I do that as well
I dare condemn your fashion sense
At least you’re not astride a fence
That would not sell
But I will deliver this address
Your soul’s condition don’t impress
You, a man, in a purple dress
A man in a purple dress
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Julie Anne said: “Earlier while on the bus, I read a comment from R.D. with a biblical reference saying that Christians shouldn’t be hanging with unbelievers.”
Hey JA,
Actually, if I am not mistaken, this is the Biblical reference:
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
There is a qualification here, in that if one calls themselves a Christian and does those things. It does not say to not hang out with unbelievers, just to not hang out with the hypocrites who call themselves Christians.
The previous verse (10) shows that in the following:
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
In other words, hang out with these people (Unbelievers), but don’t hang out with someone who claims to be a Christian who does those things.
How else would we win the unbelievers to Christ if we just stayed in our own little bubble, R.D.?
If R.D. thinks that we shouldn’t hang out with unbelievers, then he is like Peter who said that he wouldn’t eat anything that was unclean (a fat juicy pork chop, for example, as I am being officious on that one).
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Julie Anne points out that R.D. said, “I don’t mind you being there, especially if in some gentle but real way you point them to Christ, not just say, “Good job!” But you shouldn’t promote the site. I think it’s very wrong.”
R.D., When did you become Julie Anne’s dictatorial authoritarian? “I don’t mind you being there”? Wow, it’s as if she had to ask for your permission. I guess you are showing your misogynistic mentality here. No wonder you are critical of her. You are showing your true Calvinistic colors.
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Ed – Indeed, and well said.
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R.D. – Julie Anne, and others here who have brought up the same points, are correct. You are using the well-known and time-worn tools of the emotional and spiritual manipulator.
“I think you heard it from…maybe the Apostle Paul?”
“I am saying there only hope is Christ. Do you believe that? If so, then identifying with them but not identifying or speaking for Him is not helpful.”
“That’s all I’ve said…and you dismiss it with words like formula and manipulate. We’re talking about your Savior.”
“Well, I think you that while you are ripping on fellow believers for their failings ( most of them with good intentions), you might say a positive word or two about the Lord Jesus…maybe each time you attack the brethren you could put in a good word for Christ…not as a club against those you dismess, but as a hope for the victims.”
I could give more examples from your posts. You lay traps that equate your opinion with God’s own word as revealed in divine Scripture. You dare Julie Anne to disagree with your interpretation of divine Scripture. If she disagrees with you, then she is in disagreement with God, with Jesus and with the Apostle Paul! The men of the inquisition, of the Diet at Worms – history is full of example after example of the precise sort of loaded questions designed to ensnare one’s prey into admissions of sin and personal guilt.
Except, Julie Anne is educated, intelligent and more than capable of critical thinking. And she sees through you like a brand-new stained-glass window. She’s not buying, and neither are the rest of us.
You are the problem, not the solution. Blogs like Julie Anne’s are full to the brim with the same argument: These churchmen who have abused their flock, abused their own wives and children, set others to abuse their own families and/or participate in that abuse, these churchmen who have built their churches upon a mountain of gossip and innuendo and of false witness – you are pleased to place whatever “sin” we may attribute to them to God’s judgement. To expose them is to expose “the Church” to the scrutiny of man’s justice. Moreover – its exposes YOU as their facilitator and enabler because you’re pleased to call *their* sin, “well-intentioned”. The victims (who are really sinners (*shudders*) for exposing your interpretation of divine Scripture for what it is – immoral, unjust, criminal – perhaps I should just say, “evil”) should turn to Jesus, renounce their own “sin”, forgive those who *may* have sinned against them – you must admit you’re a bit noncommittal in this regard, and most importantly – keep quiet, for to expose their tormentors is to expose them to the justice of men, to the scrutiny of the “World”! And we must live apart from “The World”, mustn’t we? And using the justice of men – like suing their accusers for libel and slander in a court of law, should be reserved only for the “righteous” who just happen to hold the same opinions as you do. Funny how that works, huh? And its precisely the same tactic used by the Catholic Church to shelter its own churchmen from the scrutiny of the World and men’s justice.
Truth be told, R.D., a lot of the churchmen these blogs tell about belong in the same prison cell as any Catholic priest who’s been convicted of child molestation. And you are perfectly well aware that the people telling their stories on these blogs are no more lying about their experiences than the young children and adults who came forward to bring charges against their local Catholic priest. To claim otherwise is insulting.
Julie Anne – my apologies for the use of, “men”. I wish the English language would grow up a bit and give us more inclusive words other than, “men, man and mankind”.
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Chapmaned24
RD disclosed being a 4 Point Calvinist which doesn’t necessarily mean he embraces “Election Theology” but he could,
Calvinism is complicated because there are several dialects within the Calvinist School that even Calvinist are unable to come up with a consensus to what they believe.
RD admittedly conceded that he was a little condescending in the way he addressed his concerns to Julie Anne. How we communicate our concerns does effect relationships with others.
I am discovering a spirit of retaliation among Christians who profess the Gospel toward other Christians that is spreading into our churches. If 2 Christians disagree it only takes one Christian to be polite or humble in order to prevent strife.
It is becoming all too real to me, that Christians are all too ready to roll up their sleeves and verbally attack one another, rather than allowing cooler heads to prevail in order of having a meaningful discussion with each other that would honor the Father in Heaven..
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Recovering Pharisee,
I appreciate what you wrote, and I agree with it. This comment:
I agree with this, too. I have never advocated here or anywhere else that all a person needs to hear is repent. I made that clear very early on. I think some folks here are reading in to my words things like you’re describing with SGM. I find their methods abhorrent.
I am saying that we have so much more to offer a person, every person, than a warm hug and a little affirmation. We are ambassadors of Christ. That is our calling and He is the real solution. We can’t manipulate faith or results, but we can point to Him. it is very easy to “do the right thing” and leave Jesus out of the equation. It’s like the social gospel, feed bellies and leave people lost.
I know two individuals who are unconnected to each other but who exude love that everyone recognizes. Both love the Lord. Neither has ever been known to have lost their temper or raise their voice. One, a man, is a public school sixth grade teacher. He is beloved and gives all his time to his profession. The other is a married women, who works with extremely difficult special needs children in a public school setting. She is known as the only lady who can soothe the savage beasts that no one else can. But you know what? They speak truth to people. They point people to Jesus in every way the limitations of the job permit. That is what I’m talking about.
By the way, all. I am not a proper typist. I am a four point Calvinist and a 4.5 finger typist. That’s why I always have typos.
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Julie Anne,
No, that’s not all I got out of Heather’s post. it just stood out.
As far as your blog, I think it would help if you numbered the postings, like SGM Survivors does. It makes cross-referencing so much easier.
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Mark: Amen again to your exhortation to check out a church’s doctrine before joining. I would say also, observe the pastor or head pastor carefully. My observation is that churches tend to fill the position of pastor with people who are outgoing, extroverted, dynamic, salesman types–ostensibly because they are good evangelists. (I say ostensibly because the real, even if unrecognized, motive is to build membership.) The problem is that people with these personality characteristics also tend to be self promoting, authoritarian, controlling, lacking in empathy, and uninterested in and even unable to see another person’s point of view. They need to have their way with other people in order to feel good about themselves. They may be good at ministering what the Calvinists call the imputation of Christ’s righteousness (which is no more than a legal fiction), but they are unequipped to minister the actual impartation of His righteousness.
These people should only be called as, and given the title of, an evangelist. They should never be given the role or title of pastor. They should never be given the reigns of leadership. If you are thinking of joining a church where the person in charge exhibits the personalty and behaviors I describe above, and if you are one who is not going to be totally and unconditionally submitted to this controlling and domineering person, it won’t matter much whether you are in agreement doctrinally. There will be problems.
Trouble is, it will be difficult to discern what kind of person the “pastor” is until it is too late. They are experts at appearing to be whatever it takes to win you, not really to Jesus, but to their own personal tithe paying flock. If you discover after the fact that your “pastor” is as described in the post, my only suggestion is that you get get out sooner rather than later.
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R.D. I am not thrilled with WordPress commenting. I wish we could easily quote comments, too. I will check to see if there is an option to add numbers. In the meantime, you can refer by time of post (ie, 6:36 AM). Oh, btw, using numbers doesn’t always work well because if I have to delete a comment for some reason, then things get skewed. I’ll still check, though.
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You know, i didn’t pick on the time stamp thing. Others were using it. Good idea.
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Ok, good, R.D., because I just checked and unless I’m blind, I do not see any option for adding numbers. I did change the setting so all comments are on one page. I was going crazy yesterday trying to find comments and waiting for each page to load.
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I’m referring to R.D.’s 9:38 PM post:
I said:
R.D. replied:
What verse from Apostle Paul? When you say the right way, it implies to me that it’s the only way, that all other methods are wrong. Does not God use various methods of bringing one to healing? Some he uses His Word, sometimes people, sometimes circumstances. That’s what I mean that I think you are putting God in a box presuming to know the best way.
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We keep talking past each other, Julie Anne. i think it is frustrating for us both. Let me very clear…and I keep thinking I have been. The right way is Christ. Yes, there are many ways to present Christ…many! Many styles, tones, words…we are all marvelously different. God uses those differences. Paul preached Christ. He was only concerned that others preach Christ. Not so much “how” as that He be the focus of ministering to souls. And He can only be brought in to that with words. Your words, however you want to say them.
Every time I talk to someone I must bring in Christ? Not necessairly. It makes perfect sense to build credibility with kindness and integrity in general life circumstances. But I am temtpted to say every time when you are engaged with unbelievers on the subject of failure and abuse in the Christian community, you should stand up for Christ. Christ is the answer. You should at least say He is your answer. Of course people will not want to hear about Him. They will call you names, mock you, and put you down. None of that matters. He matters, and their souls matter. That’s just how I see it. And of course you are free to disagree.
I tried to say earlier as well, and it got lost…and just listen for a bit. A similar attitude can be developed in crusading against abuse that brought people into authoritarian movements you are criticizing. i think most of those people are well intentioned. I am sure you are. But it’s a natural tendency to demonize those you are standing against, and dismiss them even when cracks of light appear, when they see their own errors. Suddenly, it’s your side that says they haven’t repented enough, they are still in sin, they need to be brought down. Maybe that’s true sometimes.
But they need Christ, too. Abusive people are just as in need of Him as their victims. They need to see the rational, gentle truth as well. “But they won’t listen!” It may be that no one listens. That’s not our part. I would like to get to a place where I am not so much taking sides as I am being that ambassador of Christ, who is the source of all true reconciliation. I think that’s very difficult to do, but that’s our calling.
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By the way, lots of work to do today, and always take the wife dancing on Thursday nights. If I don’t answer for awhile, I will be reading along eventually.
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R.D. You scare me. I have recently discovered this safe place with safe & merciful people but it seems you use the bible as a sword to cut at Julie Anne’s heart.
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Julie Anne, I just started this poem it isn’t done, I like to let my poems simmer, come back to them. As you know, I am just starting to put the pieces together of my church experiences. You shared with me that there is no hurry to figure it out…
O Lord,
What happened to You & I back at that church?
Why was Your merciful heart was besmirched?
My love for You was almost destroyed
by men whose hearts were completely devoid…
Devoid of mercy, fairness & grace
by all the laws that they put in place.
With all their insistence that women submit to men
harping on respect again & again.
Yet failing to teach men how to cherish her
well that type of instruction didn’t often occur.
They pounded in the pulpit about their rules
as we sat in the pews feeling like fools.
We were fools because we just didn’t understand
why the Lord’s yoke wasn’t easy under all their demands.
O Lord,
I couldn’t measure up, though You know I tried,
my mind was questioning if I had too much pride,
always checking my sins on the inside
that church wasn’t a place to rest and abide.
Lord,
The love & joy that I tasted when we first met
was now buried under guilt & sweat,
You my first Love had become a threat
filling me with anxiety & fret.
Walking on egg shells in case I failed
my hope in Your mercy was derailed.
I battled with them by questioning what they said
I can still hear their answers ringing in my head.
You need to submit yourself to those in Authority,
let the sufficiency of the scriptures be your priority.
And don’t question us whatever you do,
we are God’s leaders and He has given us His View.
O, Lord they had the Bible on their side
a verse for every question I asked was supplied.
What did I know? I didn’t have any religious instruction, only a babe in You,
I trusted in these leaders and believed what they taught was holy & true.
What happened to my innocent heart?
it was filled with grief when my faith fell apart.
I put the blame on myself when I crawled away
crushed in hope, my faith in complete disarray.
I figured I just didn’t know how to submit and obey
by letting you be the potter and me the clay.
However Lord I am starting to rethink
that perhaps it was cool aide that they had me drink.
Dare I name it now as spiritual abuse?
the damage in my heart is abundantly profuse.
Wandering for years, just now trying to make some sense,
if they deceived me unknowingly by making such a false pretense.
Guide me Lord now as I start to unravel
yesterdays roads that I have traveled.
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wish i could edit- should be *cool aide that THEY…
Off to be in the present moment with love-aka my newborn grand baby…
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Scared: I fixed that. Enjoy that precious redhead baby 🙂
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Gary W,
It is a little easier to discern the kind church you want to attend when you move. The internet is helping raise awareness of the diverse Doctrines that Christians are facing today.
I find it strange that Church Attendee’s within the Baptist Church are put in a position to dig deep into the Pastor’s resume’ and even study the 5 Points of TULIP and then ask which of the 5 Points of TULIP a 3 or 4 Point Calvinist actually embraces.
In my research I’m discovering Biblical Academics suggesting if you embrace 1 Point you embrace them all. Biblical Academics are refuting and defending Calvinism. Because of my experience I choose to avoid being involved in the ministry of a Calvinist.
Sadly, I find myself at times researching Doctrinal Indifference as preventitive medicine from Spiritual Abuse when I should be digging into the Bible.
It has been my experience that High Point Calvinist, New Calvinist and Hyper-Calvinist are extremely aggressive.
(focused on their Methodology more than the Message)
My former Hyper-Theological Pastor took a hard line and proclaimed his “Methodology” as “Truth”. does this mean he would have to refute all the other forms of Calvinism in order for his hard line proclamation, to be authenticated?
I have a feeling Julie Anne’s former Pastor was some kind of Reformed Geneva Style or High Point Calvinist Preacher and she may not have discovered that until after she started her blog. (but I’m only guessing)
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@ RD & Julie Anne:
“We keep talking past each other, Julie Anne. i think it is frustrating for us both.”
Having followed this thread all day yesterday from the “sidelines,” I think I agree with this assessment. I think this is one unfortunate limitation of the blogging/comment medium – most communication happens through tone, body language, etc. and all we have here is words.
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R.D. – As I was just making my breakfast smoothie, I was thinking to myself. Maybe R.D. isn’t referring to a specific verse from Apostle Paul, but Paul’s overall message of bringing Christ. And then I came back to the computer and saw your 8:12 comment 🙂 Ok. we’re finally making a connection. Whew. 🙂
Your earlier comments did not come across the same way to me. We would probably still disagree about me participating at HA. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
I think the common goal we share is that people are healed. Your method may vary from mine, but I think we are in agreement on the end goal. I sensed you did not approve of my method, that it didn’t meet what you believe as biblical requirements and you tried to prove that by saying quoting the verse about being with unbelievers.
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I said this:
R.D. responded:
R.D. – – You haven’t addressed the 2 or more Believers part of my message above. Are you now ok if I go over to HA since there is another Believer participating? I still sense that it won’t meet your approval (not like I need it, but just sayin’).
Regarding ripping on fellow believers for their failings – – – I’d like to see the words you are referring to when you say I am “ripping on fellow believers.” Keep in mind that if I am “ripping” anyone, 3 of those fingers are definitely pointing back at me because I was one of them, too. The rest of the above paragraph feels snarky and I don’t feel like dealing with it.
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Hester said:
I appreciate that R.D. has continued because I really would like to get a common understanding. And you are right – it is very difficult in this medium. I think we are progressing this morning.
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Mark said: I have a feeling Julie Anne’s former Pastor was some kind of Reformed Geneva Style or High Point Calvinist Preacher and she may not have discovered that until after she started her blog. (but I’m only guessing)
That is a very accurate guess. I had no idea what Calvinism was when we were at that church. In fact, I am still trying to figure Calvinism out. I don’t think Calvinists are in agreement on what it is, to tell you the truth. But yes, the church was definitely Calvinist and probably Hyper Calvinist. All I know is it was abusive.
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Julie Anne,
Guessing can be a little risky, especially if I guess wrong.
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For the most part, I’m an open book. Guess away, Mark 🙂
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I can really appreciate Judah’s comment from the HA blog. Please don’t get distracted with the messengers, look at the message:
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Julie Anne,
I just wondering how many bloggers that have posted on SSB and BGBC Survivors were in a Stealth or Covert Hyper-Theological environment having no idea they were in a Chruch consumed in a Doctrine surrounded by a Methodology that embraced an abusive interpretation of scriptures.
I don’t see the trend slowing down much as there are several Seminaries indoctrinating 5+ Pointers everyday. Although there are many Preachers within the SBC that do not like the trend and are refuting Calvinism.
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scared
That was an absolutely beautiful poem. Tears now running down my cheeks.
Brought back many memories, questions, and tearful thoughts.
“My love for You was almost destroyed
by men whose hearts were completely devoid…
Devoid of mercy, fairness & grace
by all the laws that they put in place.”
You know, there is a verse that says – “… the law worketh wrath…” Rom 4:15 KJV.
And today – When I sense someone, anyone, wanting to put the law on me – or you…
Giving us “Rules to live the christian life.” “Rules to please God.”
That law certainly worketh wrath in me – And my “CreepO Meter” goes off…
and an anger, wrath, indignation arises within… And I want to tell them off.
And I have to re-write many comments… 😉
Kinda like Jesus with the “Religious Leaders” of His day…
Seems the only folks Jesus gave a hard time to were “the Religious Leaders.”
The ones who tithed mint and cumin but forgot – Grace and Mercy.
He called “Religious Leaders” Snakes, Whited Sepulchres, Of your father the Devil.
You lay heavy weights on shoulders and do nothing to lift them off…
And He overturned their tables making merchandise of His People.
Thanks again for your poem. And it wasn’t you fault at all…
“What did I know? I didn’t have any religious instruction, only a babe in You,
I trusted in these leaders and believed what they taught was holy & true.
What happened to my innocent heart?
it was filled with grief when my faith fell apart.”
Be Blessed in your search for “Truth”
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. Psalm 147:3 KJV
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Amos – – – thank you for reminding me to go back and read that poem.
Wow, scared – – – that is so well-written. When you get it finished, may I post it as it’s own post? It is so beautiful and will speak to so many who were in high-controlling church environments. Thank you so much for sharing it here. You really have a gift, scared!
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Julie Anne
Thanks for your honesty and openness.
Lots of good comments – I’ve been trying to catch up with the different conversations.
Don’t know if this was mentioned, but, your post starts with this verse…
“Train up a child in the way he should go:
and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6
I first understood this verse to mean…
I was to train “My” child – In the way “I” thought he should go.
The way “the Religious System” said he should go.
Now I understand this verse to mean…
I was to train up “God’s Children”
In the way “God” wants them to go. – To be the person “God” created them to be.
NOT what “I” wanted them to be.
(We do dedicate them to God and say they belong to God. – Yes?)
And deffinitly NOT what “the Religious System” wants them to be.
Pew sitters – Who will – Pray – Pay – Stay – and – Obey…
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Julie Anne
I have an opinion about your being a part of H-A… Home schoolers Anonymous.
And opinions are worth about what you pay for them… 😉
Sounds like some interesting ground to learn why folks have given up on Jesus.
And everyone who walked with Jesus was an unbeliever when they first met. 😉
I mean, I was in “the Religious System” and many there were unbelievers. 😦
And many were like the scribes and Pharisees. Seems I recall “The Corrupt Religious Crowd” always gave Jesus a hard time for hanging out with tax collecters and sinners.
Things haven’t changed much. 😉
Mark 2:16-17
And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners,
they said unto his disciples,
How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them,
They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick:
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Didn’t Jesus say, My Sheep – Hear My Voice – and – Follow Me. Jn 10:27.
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and “HE” shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:5-6 KJV
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