Train up a child in the way he should go:
and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6
You see that verse? Probably every homeschool parent heard that verse too many times to count throughout their homeschooling years. It was engrained in us. We did not want our children to depart from “the way they should go” and the solution was to “train” our children. At least that’s what they told us.
Ever since my spiritual abuse journey, I have been trying to figure out what led our family to that spiritually abusive church and pastor who sued us in an attempt to discover who our primary influencers were over the years. I found that the most influential people in the last couple of decades have been leaders in the homeschool movement who had a spiritual agenda, not necessarily an educational agenda. We have been taught so strongly to “train our children” and some of us did that quite well. We created little obedient and compliant robot children who were polite, respected authority and looked really good in church all lined up in a pew. People always commended us on our beautiful large family.
These influencers not only taught us how to parent, but taught us what they thought was very important: large families, courtship, modesty and purity, fathers as spiritual heads/priest of the home, mothers as hard-working submissive wives, preparing wholesome meals from homegrown gardens, grinding wheat to make whole grain breads. The boys were taught how to be boys, play like boys, work like boys, helping their fathers in projects around the house. Daughters learned traditional homemaking skills that would last them a lifetime when they got married and started families of their own, because that was their ultimate lot in life. Yes, in many homeschooling families, daughters were discouraged and even forbidden from going to college for any higher level education, they were to stay at home serving dad and their family while they waited to be courted by a young man approved by their father. True to the homeschooling culture, I did own a denim jumper or two, and I sewed matching jumpers for my daughters who were 7 years apart in age. My five boys may thank me that they never had matching homeschool uniforms like khaki slacks and polo shirts, but they did manage to always match by having jeans with holes in the knees.
Not only did we raise good obedient children, we invested in our children and pushed them towards educational excellence. We made sure they were well-versed on the popular homeschool-movement agendas which we adopted as our own: they knew how to debate creation vs evolution, they were politically involved in their communities, worked on political campaigns, participated in speech and debate classes and competitions, attended worldview conferences, and went on missions trips. In my family, our kids knew how to evangelize the “right way,” how to defend their faith, and knew the tenants of 5-pt Calvinism inside and out. Homeschooled students were good students, usually testing years ahead of their peers. They were accomplished in music, sports, volunteered at Crisis Pregnancy Centers, lobbying at the capital for homeschooling rights, etc. What more could we ask for?
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What many are finding out is that those brilliant robots, when released to the real world, start questioning where they came from, what they believed, where they are going. This is a normal response for young adults. But I’ve seeing a disturbing trend especially among young adults who were raised in this kind of environment. Many of these “trained” adult kids are now venturing 180 degrees in the opposite direction, perhaps in response to the controlled environment in which they were raised, some suffering a host of problems similar to what spiritual abuse victims experience that I deal with so often: mental health issues, addiction issues, etc. There is a lot of heartache among this group.
I feel very responsible for buying into this garbage. I will continue to speak out against disturbing aspects of the homeschool movement on my blog. It takes a lot of emotional energy to work up one of these posts because it means I have to admit my failure. Of course my blog will also continue to be a platform for these precious young adults. I believe in a way that some of us parents were cult leaders in our families. We were fed an agenda by those home school leaders. We believed it. We saw their perfect families and wanted to emulate what we saw and expected that kind of obedience and educational excellence from our children. We trained them alright.
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Not too long ago, I was asked if I would like to partner with others in a new blog called Homeschool Anonymous. I was thrilled to be asked because I have attempted to use my blog as a Spiritual Sounding Board to the abuses that I’ve noticed in the homeschooling movement. Most of the participants in the Homeschool Anonymous blog are former homeschool students, and two of us have been (or currently are) homeschool moms. Interestingly, you will notice that many of the blog participants no longer connect with their Christian heritage. I think conservative homeschoolers will find this shocking. In fact I admit that I am afraid to post about this on my private Facebook page because I have easily 300+ homeschooling friends/moms who might be pretty upset if I mention this big homeschooling secret: some of our adult kids have departed from the way in which we trained them.
I have long ditched my homeschool mom uniform, the denim jumper. I refuse to go to state-run Christian homeschooling conferences whose conference leaders get to hand-select vendors and speakers based on their approved religious agenda. So as I continue to teach our last two kiddos at home, those destructive religious-agenda influences play no part in our homeschooling anymore.
So yes, I am partnering with R.L. Stollar who is an amazing individual and new friend who was completely homeschooled and put together this group. I have so much respect for what he is doing to help his peers walk through their homeschool journeys and the aftermath or perhaps fallout. I hope Homeschool Anonymous reaches many former homeschooled students and parents and that our collective voices will be heard and considered. It’s never too late, right? Oh my, parenting is a humbling journey – so, so humbling.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
The way that verse in Proverbs has been translated into English is poor scholarship and reflects the worldview of the people that did the translation rather than an accurate rendering of the Hebrew word that is Channuk which is translated into the word, Dedicate (like the Jewish holiday Channukah is the feast of dedication of the oil that provided light to the menorrah,) The words “train up” are harsh and antagonistic contrast the word “dedicate” which is relational and advocational.
I, too, am responsible for allowing my family to experience extreme forms of Christianity and homeschooling had its part to play in our brand of the fundie freak show. It did harm to my children particularly my older children.
I am glad these adult children are finding their voice. Sometimes it is painful to hear the details of their stories but I feel as though I affirm them by actively listening.
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As a homeschooling mom, I look forward to reading their articles. My oldest is at an age where I expect her to form her own opinions and to seek out life for herself. It’s what we all do. Heck, I’m almost 44 years old and I don’t even hold the same opinion of church as my parents do.
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Thankfully, Kathi, you never drank the homechool Kool-Aid as homechool as so many others did. I think your kids won’t have to deal with a lot of the heartache that you’ll be reading about there.
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Julie Anne,
I can’t thank you enough for this. This new blog is, I believe, going to be another step in our family’s healing. My husband and his brothers were all homeschooled under this worldview. All of them have rejected it. I sent my husband the link to the new blog, and he has already started reading there. Maybe, some day, he will feel comfortable telling his story. We still currently homeschool our kids, but we have drastically changed our approach since leaving our abusive church. Like you, I shudder at the effect it’s already had on our older ones. I know there are consequences to our choices, but the Bible does say that His mercies are new every morning.
After reading some of the comments on TWW, I checked the footnotes in my former church’s tome in defense of home education. Sure enough, it references Rousas John Rushdoony and Gary North, proponents of Christian Reconstructionism. I am just sick about what I blindly bought into. I wonder how many other parents know of the ideology behind some of the homeschool movement.
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I would have been willing to drink the homeschool koolaid, but I didn’t realize there was a uniform so when I showed up to the local meetings without a denim jumper I was not accepted. And when I told them I used a box curriculum that told me what to do, the eyes rolled and shuffled away. I knew I’d done something wrong, but didn’t have a clue what it was.
I was ill. Daily life was a challenge and my thinking was fuzzy. But my child had learning issues and he would have been lost in school. I got a box program so we function even on bad days.
When my son could not read or write by 3rd grade, I enrolled him in school. He ended up losing ground. Turns out the school could not provide the one on one help he needed. Surprise! So I brought him back home and poured literature into his head by reading, reading, reading to him. He had to compose but with me as his scribe. The rest was easy if it was hands on.
When my son was 11 in the 5th grade, something clicked and he caught up in one year. All the knowledge that was poured into his head was there and ready to go. By then, he was also ready to individuate from too much one on one time with me and off he went to school. Today he’s in college. He’s smart, but still learns differently than others.
My time in the movement taught me much as I watched from the sidelines of the legalism of some parents, pressure from local churches on women to homeschool who were wholly unsuited to teach anyone much less their kids, unintended consequences of isolationism, undo pressure on husbands, perfectionism that exacerbated kids, as well as the lazy teacher syndrome that left kids years behind their peers … unable to function outside the home as young adults.
This is a big subject, both pros and cons.
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BTDT – Did you ever read this on Reconstructionist and the Homeschool Movement: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2012/12/08/the-homeschool-movement-its-reconstructionist-roots-and-rushdoonys-influence/ It really is eye-opening. There was and is a clear agenda among Christian homeschool self-appointed leaders. I believe they infiltrated the system to promote their Reconstructionist agenda and they manipulate the way the state Christian homeschool conventions are run so that only their approved speakers and curricula are available. I think it was in Colorado homeschool convention that disallowed the Sonlight curricula from being sold. That curricula is being used by missionaries all over the world. Conspiracy among homeschoolers?? I guess so!
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Katie – Boy, you were feeling the Christian love there, huh? Wow – what a response. That makes me angry to read about.
I’m so glad you were able to get through that difficult time and your son has done so well. I think that’s a tribute to your patience and persistence. And good for you for not wearing that dumb uniform 🙂
Speaking of kids who learn differently, you might get a kick out of this Facebook status I wrote last week:
How my 7-yr old caboose child does math and PE in the homeschool environment:
-ask mom how to do math problem
-get on ripstick and ride thru dining room, kitchen to living room and work problem
-get back on ripstick and ride back to mom to ask how to do the next problem
-repeat all of the above 25 times for a complete math lesson
Yes, I have a little wiggly guy. He might have a difficult time in a traditional school environment, but he’s doing fine at home.
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Katie
Your comment reminded me of some things I learned about children while my wife was a fifth grade math and science teacher, and which fit into my own educational background at the Ph.D. level in how we learn and understanding mathematical concepts like probability and risk.
At about age 10-12, many children seem to suddenly change gears and learn and behave differently than before. That is about the same time that something called the executive function seems to take effect, that is, the ability of a person to observe their own behavior and speech and to think about what they are doing and saying. They begin to “manage” their own behavior, rather than just respond to stimulus. This function, btw, continues to develop into the 20s, and there is a great deal of variability in the rate of development, with some never getting very far with impulse control.
As I read, it seems that your son, who has learning differences, also learned how to manage his own learning and his response to his social setting. Those are minimal skils for success in a school environment beyond the elementary years.
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Thank you for that link, Julie Anne. I know you bloggers may sometimes feel like you’re repeating yourselves, but some of us are just “discovering” you and putting the pieces together. I’m so grateful you are here, and that you are speaking out.
Yesterday my husband’s brother was over at his parent’s home for dinner. This 30-something-year old man was bludgeoned with scriptures by his father for not returning to their church. He already feels awkward enough for having been raised in such a backwards environment. Now, the very parents who chose his education and his religion in his formative years will not allow him to choose for himself. Patriarchy, much? I believe you’ve featured other stories of homeschooled children who have been treated the same way. There is something more far-reaching here than just an educational choice. This is most certainly an agenda, and it crosses all denominations.
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“I think it was in Colorado homeschool convention that disallowed the Sonlight curricula from being sold. That curricula is being used by missionaries all over the world. Conspiracy among homeschoolers?? I guess so!”–JulieAnne
Well that explains a lot! I used Sonlight, that’s what they reacted to so negatively. I never thought my son had the perfect education, but he got what I was able to give, which was a lot more than what the school could give. I loved the literature!
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JulieAnne, glad “Wiggly” is doing well! 😉
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Arce, it did just “click”! May be as you describe.
BTDT, Oh the parental ties into adulthood. This is not healthy.
A family here, has a boat load of kids. Every one of them is nearly 2 years behind in school, so they don’t test them. The oldest 3 can barely handle a McDonald’s job and can’t get into the local community college. The mother insists they must live at home and they comply into their 20’s. They don’t like to leave the house, go anywhere without one another as a security blanket, and none of them are prepared for basic life where one has to ask questions and figure things out.
It’s so sad. The kids now watch my son through Facebook and all his adventures in college and his time out of the country. The differences between them are now growing by the day.
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Yes, Katie, the parental ties into adulthood are so unhealthy. And, yet, some Christian Patriarchists push this thinking.
I think the way you raised your son is a beautiful example of the benefits of homeschooling. My former church would cite examples such as yours to defend their right to home school. But, ironically, they would never allow their members the freedom to choose their own curriculum, or the children the freedom to move on and make their own decisions. So, they, too, raised a generation of half-educated kids. When the church then finds cause to “disassociate” or “disfellowship” these kids, they are turned out into a world they are unprepared to deal with. It’s a huge psychological mess!
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I use Tapestry of Grace for our history and literature. I would probably not be considered the “poster mom” for TOG. I use it because I like the chronological study of history and their book selection is wonderful. It’s very similar to Sonlight (from what I’ve heard from other Sonlight users).
Not too long ago on a Yahoo group thread for TOG users, someone brought up a question about courtship – looking for books, how-to’s, etc. One gal mentioned she looked forward to the day when a young man would approach her husband about courting their daughter. I laughed out loud and read it to my daughter (who is 15) and asked her if she wanted us to do this for her. She just said, “whatever,” and went on to other things. When I read it to my husband he laughed and said that if a young man ever asked him that question, he would be sitting at the table silently cleaning his gun and ask him to never return to the house again.
Not too long ago there was another thread about dealing with a co-op. Someone’s response to her was to trust what her husband had to say about it because that’s why they are placed in charge of the family and it is good thing for us women to have these faithful men in charge. You know, since we’re so emotional. Dear Lord, I don’t even relate to this.
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My one regret that I have during homeschooling was when my son, and eventually my husband and daughter, took TaeKwonDo. I found a place that offered a discount to homeschooling families because the owners were homeschoolers. They were trying to bring in more homeschooling families into their business. Little did I know, until a year into it, that they were also “pastors” of their home church.
Part of TaeKwonDo is discipline. You find it at all dojangs. And, the masters wanted parents to report when kids were being disrespectful at home or were having a difficult time doing their school work. This went for all kids – there were more p.s. kids than homeschooled kids. At that time, I was having a hard time with my son during school, so I used that to my advantage, hoping it would make school time easier. My son would have to do extra push-ups or wouldn’t get a star for his attendance.
After a year, my husband and daughter started attending, and we really began to see the true colors of the masters. We decided not to tell them if there were struggles during school at home. We made the decision that the master should not have control of our home. We, as parents, could handle it on our own. I admitted that I needed to get over my sense of wanting total control out of my kids so that they behaved like little polite robots.
It was a hard lesson for me to learn, on my part. And, I feel badly that I would hold, “I’ll tell Master Ron…” over their heads if they didn’t do what I asked.
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I am a new homeschool mom with a 6 year old and a 3 year old. I was also raised in a homeschool family. I saw so much of what you are talking about as I grew up in the homeschool movement….I would never teach my daughters that their only goal in life is to be a housewife and mother (although that is a very important job and if it’s what they want I would be happy for them) BUT, I don’t feel like I have seen mindless followers come out of the children I grew up with. Most of them are successful people, many still follow the Lord and most ALL of them are free thinkers who have their own strong opinions and aren’t easliy lead by peer groups or leaders. There is a “right way” to homeschool your kids, right? And where does the difference lie…in your ‘agenda’ for homeschooling? The kind of homeschoolers you associate with? the curriculum you use?
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Kathi, I’m glad you brought up the boy asking the Dad to date his daughter. I have never even thought about this. Recently, my son told me he asked a young lady’s dad if he could date his daughter. This was not something he learned from us. The dad was cleaning his gun!!!
I think we will be having a talk with our son about how he and the young lady are old enough to be individuals, adults, and the daughter’s father is not the decision maker. If the daughter wants her father’s opinion, she can ask. But it does seem strange that young men would ask the father and not just the daughter. Would a young lady ask me, the mother, if she can date my son?
Hmmm, much to think about here.
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I think this asking the dad for permission is a tradition, but understanding it’s roots may be helpful.
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I can so relate to what you share Julie and the rest of you. I’m going through a hard time ~ realizing the unhealthy ideas I bought into through these fringe homeschooling communities. I remember the “grinding your own wheat berries and making your own bread” fad. I never did get the hang of baking bread! It was always pretty “dense”. You could use my loafs for door stops!
My husband and I bought into the courtship phase as well for a while, but couldn’t really pull it off. When I started doing research on these groups about a year ago, I was pretty shocked! I’ve been “deconstructing” since and am just so sad that I put my kids through some of this. I started homeschooling back in the early 90’s when it really started to take off (5 kids). My oldest 3 had it the hardest. My youngest 2 are doing better. I’ve apologized to them regarding the whole homeschooling experience. I realize now I was more focused on “indoctrinating” them in these ideas then in their spiritual development.
I so want to turn back the clock, so much regret. I know that there’s much grace in Jesus. I know He loves my kids and will help us through this time. Thanks for listening, just needed to vent a little.
Oh, and I think this website is great ~ yes, it hurts to see the pain inflicted on the kids, but I agree with Opinemine that I can affirm them by listening.
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BTDT – By any chance – – is your husband’s brother single? If so, that would explain a lot. Patriarchal families think they own their adult kids until they are married. And even then, I wonder. It’s pretty sad.
Katie – You can do a search on John Holzman (that spelling might be off) – the founder of Sonlight to read his story. He posted about it on his blog. It was quite a big deal as you can imagine. When your livelihood depends on selling curricula and such a big group bans you – – – whoa – – bully methods, anyone? I’m grumpy today. I’m getting tired of thinking about so-called Christians who think they get to bully people, remove their choices, get into their personal lives. Blech.
Kathi – I know that Tai-kwon-do class you are referring to. My husband wanted me to check into it and I procrastinated. Whew, missed that one, but sad thing is if we had attended, we probably would have felt very comfortable and been on board with that nonsense.
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Sarah – I’m glad to hear that your peers have done well and haven’t had the problems that I am seeing. A lot of the “my-way-is the-right-way” comes from leaders in the Christian homeschooling network of people who speak at a lot of the state Christian homeschooling conferences. They will be the key note speakers and many of them have agendas: family-integrated churches, courtship, purity/modesty, full-quiver.
Any time you sense someone who says that their way is the “right” way or the “biblical way” or the “gospel way”, they are basically saying anything other than that is garbage. They are presuming to choose for you and be your HS. They can easily convince you that you’ve been doing it all wrong. My BS meter would go off big-time now. Previously, I would buy it, hook, line, and sinker, because I felt like I had so much to learn and trusted those who were older and had more experience than me.
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Hi Monique – – You are in good company when it comes to regrets as a parent. I have now been telling my kids that they will most likely need therapy and I hope they will. But I also tell them that I am a work in progress and that if there is any time they want to talk to me about something, even thought it might be hurtful for me to hear, I do want to hear it. I owe them that much. Parenting is humbling, that’s for sure. I think when they see that we are not defending ourselves, but wanting to make things right, that is huge.
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Thanks for sharing, Julie Ann. I look forward to reading their stuff.
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Julie Anne,
My husband’s brother is married with four young kids. His wife and kids still attend our former church. He tries to be respectful of her desires to raise the kids according to the church “patterns,” though he himself wants nothing to do with it.
I realize we may have quite a double whammy going on here. Not only did our former church advocate a Patriarchal, Reconstructionist approach to homeschooling, but the church qualifies as an authoritarian cult, too. Our experiences are a bit beyond the pale. Throw in the struggling business, and, well . . . most days I doggy paddle desperately to stay afloat. But, I’m going to keep working on growing past all of this. And hopefully my voice can help just one person to pay closer attention to what they are buying into.
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Julie Anne, you’re giving me alot to think about and I’m glad. I may be avoiding homeschool conferences from now on 🙂 and I will definately be very thoughtful and prayerful about how and what I teach my kids….it’s a struggle not to be influenced by the people in your peer group (in my case, other HS families) and I am going to be more vigilant about not being pressured or influenced into letting them decide for me how I homeschool.
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JulieAnne,
Thanks for letting me know about John Holzman’s response. I’ll look it up.
What’s interesting is that Sonlight is based in Colorado.
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I know, Katie, so can you imagine them severing the ties of the convention that is closest to him? Crazy!
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Sarah:
You just hit an important way this kind of dangerous teaching gets around: via families. One mom says to you: Hey, have you heard of this great parenting program – – – – it REALLY works – – – you must check it out. They sell it like a used car salesman. What makes it especially difficult is if not only one mom, but two or three also chime in and give their accolades. It becomes convincingly apparent when you have that kind of peer pressure that you are obviously missing something if you don’t go aboard their train and buy that parenting program/book/whatever. That is exactly how I got into the full-quiver movement. The difficult thing is that it’s not done maliciously. They genuinely think they have the newest and greatest program that will benefit them and everyone.
Google searches can become your friend. Sometimes through Google results, you can weed things out after seeing story after story of warnings. Also feel free to come here and ask in the comments or e-mail me. I have a lot of smart readers who are familiar with problematic programs/people.
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Kathi, you may already know of this connection- Tapestry of Grace was created by members of Covenant Life Church, the former flagship SGM church.
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I knew they were part of SGM, wasn’t sure which one. Thanks, for that info RP.
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I just read John Holzmann’s response to CHEC, and the chronology of events. Wow! Chec was very unprofessional, not to mention wrong.
I have heard for years all about how great some homeschool communities are. What we have here in my part of Colorado is poor, at best. It’s like a small church with a core of legalistic, self-righteous women leading it. They are not inclusive. They weed people out … after they take your dues.
I was cornered by one woman (now that I think about it was wearing the jumper, into “headship” and part of the quiver full, though I didn’t know the terminology at the time,) she asked if my husband was committed to homeschooling the kids too. I said no, because he works. She lectured me for an hour on how I have to confront my husband and basically demand he step up to his rightful place as leader. It’s all coming back to me now.
It’s just so sad that many of us were isolated from other more experienced homeschoolers because they only wanted their flavor of women.
Someone on John’s blog said that it looks like many venders were banned from Colorado’s convention. I’m curious who all was on that list and if they could ban together and provide an alternative convention? Many would appreciate it, I’m sure. I know my town is not the only one that had such issues of legalistic control.
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Katie – I’d like to know what is on that list, too. I imagine it would be very difficult to start a new alternative convention. They’d have to do a massive media campaign and I imagine that once the other group found out, they’d probably pull bully tactics and try to obstruct the effort.
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RP – No, I did not know that! I just heard about it from friend and liked the layout. Like I said, I don’t do everything, not even their “Bible” and church studies (except in the first year – ancients). I’m not the best mom to promote their curriculum.
Julie Anne – I didn’t know you knew about the TaeKwonDo folks. Did you ever meet them? The guy’s braid down the middle of his head to his butt always kind of freaked us out. I also think that TaeKwonDo “masters” are an unusual sort. Every one that I have ever met has seemed to have a bit of arrogance to them.
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No, Kathi, I never met them. I remember seeing their fliers. Seems like some of my friends had kids who took classes there, but I can’t remember right now.
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I know exactly what you are talking about…my ‘mom friends’ used to pressure me to do Babywise and they made me feel like I was ruining my kids if I didn’t do it. There really is the same kind of pressure with alot of the homeschool ideas. Wow! My eyes are being really opened today!
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Sarah – The sad thing is I used to be like them. 😦
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Julie Anne, it’s so awesome that you are using what you have been through and the way your eyes have been opened to help others who are headed down the same path. I appreciate you speaking out!!
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Thank you, Sarah. I sure hope it will help others.
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JulieAnne, I hear you. You might be right as that is the normal response from controllers who fear the individual’s ability to make decisions for themselves. It really is a low view of people.
The reason I think an alternative convention is possible to pull off is because the homeschooling community in Colorado has really ostracized a LOT of thinking people. If you piss enough people off, there is a backlash.
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Sarah … Oh, Babywise! (slap my head with two hands!)
I did it. Because I was the only one I knew doing it where I lived, there was zero pressure and I guess you could say we did Babywise-Light. But my sister-in-law had a whole church that did it. The pressure was so intense they quit Babywise and had to leave the church. People would see your child disobey and they would say, “You need to reread chapter X.” Ugh!
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H. A. is offering up a critique of home-schooling based on unbelief, but the critque itself has been made by home-school leaders themselves already, though they let the Word of God be their corrective.
http://www.joshharris.com/2011/09/homeschool_blindspots.php
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Julie Anne,
I know of many people who homeschool, and we had plans to do so at one time. I also know several people who were high up in the “movement” if you could call it that for them. It seemed, though, that these particular people I knew were in it to actually help people to school at home rather than to push the agenda of a movement. I heard some things from them that were revealing, and a bit shocking.
They confided to me that they estimated about a third of Christian parents who homeschool really had no business doing so. Can you imagine such a thing coming from conference and cirriculum advocates? They weren’t your usual “the bible commands homeschooling” types, but could see many of the problems inherent in homeschooling. Some people just aren’t good teachers of children past a certain point.
One of the problems I have seen personally about the homeschool movement is one of discipleship. The Great Commission tells us to disciple the nations to do all that Christ commands. But, and here’s the interesting thing, many homeschool advocates preach that the bible commands parents to teach their children at home, but they haven’t discipled the parents in how to do so. Shouldn’t parents be fully trained to homeschool by their churches before even having kids? Jesus confronts the Pharisees on exactly this point, that they place heavy burdens on people’s shoulders yet don’t lift a finger to help. Here in California, the homeschool movement may actually be ahead of other states because our schools are especially screwed up by the liberals. Hahaha. But, here, we have many first generation Christians who have no experienced Christian parents or families to go to for help, at least in my estimation. So many jump in to the homeschool experience blind and without much direction apart from “the bible commands us to teach at home.”
To be fair, and like I said I know many people who homeschool, many parents bring up kids who retain their faith into adulthood because they approach schooling with real life in mind. They train them to be good students and good thinkers, and have “socialization” in mind, too. They aren’t all robots.
With any movement, one has to wait at least a generation to see how the real fruit falls from the trees. I suspect that with homeschooling we will see both good and bad fruit. For what it’s worth, my 2c US adjusted for inflation.
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Hi RD,
You said: H. A. is offering up a critique of home-schooling based on unbelief, but the critque itself has been made by home-school leaders themselves already, though they let the Word of God be their corrective.
Please help me understand you. You say H.A. is offerering a critique based on unbelief? I’m not following you.
I’m not sure it matters if the critique has been made by Bradley or Harris. Bradley’s old parenting book contributed to the mess we’re in today. I’m glad he’s seen the light just as I have seen the light. Bradley’s admission of failures is only a start. What about Mahaney, Gregg Harris, Ezzo, Pearl, Tripp, and so many others who contributed? These former homeschoolers need a place to get together, tell their stories, and heal. I support them 100%.
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Well, given Kevin Swanson’s “fetus graveyard” comments, it’s easy to see why he would kick open-minded and/or scientifically inclined vendors out of his convention. Also when I used Sonlight growing up, they carried this book, which included a cartoon (but actually surprisingly and hilariously graphic) explanation of the sex act using trains. I remember at the time having no idea why my dad was bent double with laughter. If this is still included it would probably scare Swanson’s pants off.
I’ve heard about some extreme patriarchal families that at dinner, the boys get to eat before the girls. I wish I could remember where I read it because if I could, I’d link to it and splash it everywhere. It’s disturbing and straight out of Wild Discovery. (In lion prides, when a kill is made the lions eat first, then the lionesses, then the cubs – even though the lionesses are the ones who actually do the hunting!)
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Ok, Hester, I am tempted to stop by the library to see this picture you are talking about. That’s funny! And you’re right – I forgot Kevin Swanson was connected with the Colorado HS convention. That explains everything, doesn’t it?
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Julie Ann, I would ask you to read through this, and see if you think this person has “healed.” It seems to be the tone of most of what’s on H. A.
http://becomingworldly.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/personal-values-and-quiverfull-social-guilt/
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I don’t want to sound flippant, R.D., but so what? So what if this person is not healed? What is the problem? I still don’t understand what you mean by “critique based on unbelief.” And then you refer to the Bradley/Harris article saying that they let the “Word of God” be their corrective. Well, if you want to be honest about it, a decade ago or so ago, Bradley would have insisted that the Word of God was his corrective when he wrote his parenting book that led many homeschool parents down the legalistic, hyper-controlling path resulting in what you see in the personal accounts on H.A.
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So what if this person is not healed? Really? So what? “Heal” was your word. Yes, ma’am, it sounds very flippant indeed.
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Yes, I used the word “heal.” It’s a process. Do you have a problem with the H.A. site? If so, can you please describe? If anything, the article you linked gives justification for a site like H.A., does it not?
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Julie Ann, at one point you seemed to claim some level of allegiance to Jesus Christ. The H.A. site is being used by people who are against Christianity to promote a philosophy/theology/worldview in opposition to Jesus Christ. Hardly anyone knows about H. A., but more will know and go there because of you. Instead of correcting abuse through Christ as the Harris blog intends to do, as well as others, you are pointing the abused to people who will direct them away from Christ.
I asked about healing, because I wanted to understand if you believed that delighting in sin and rejecting Jesus qualified to you as a “healed” person as long as they went to college and now feel free to indulge their sinful desires without guilt.
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Please tell me where they are “promoting” anything except a gathering place for those who were homeschooled (or those who homeschooled their kids)? The reality is that many homeschooled kids who were raised in high-controlled environments have turned from their parents’ faith/values/ideals. Do you think those young adults will be congregating on Josh Harris’ blog? I think not. Also, if this was a pressing concern for Josh and those he works with, why is that the only post I’ve seen on this topic? That article was from 2011. That article is a nice little bandaid from 1-1/2 yrs ago, but that is not enough.
And regarding the business of delighting in sin – it seems to me the ones who are delighting in sin are the ones who fail to look honestly at themselves and how they raised their children and instead point fingers at these young adults who are struggling and trying to make sense of the high-controlling, authoritarian, legalistic environment in which they were raised.
Sometimes love is walking along side those who are in pain and getting in the trenches with them. I am a Christian and I would like to show kindness and mercy and grace to those precious young adults and that is why I am partnering with them – partly because I feel responsible for buying into this kind of parenting and partly because I understand abuse. What are you doing about this known problem besides criticizing me?
signed,
Julie Ann-with-an-E (and I only say that on my blog when I’m irritated)
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WA is a good reminder why God told us not to provoke our kids to wrath.
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Katie: WA?
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Yes, Julie AnnE, I have noticed you get irritated easily. Your blending of the word “partnering” with “kindnesss, grace and mercy” is instructive. It shows you have left the path of wisdom. Thank you for your only partially evasive answer. It is sufficient to understand where you are coming from.
This paragraph: “And regarding the business of delighting in sin – it seems to me the ones who are delighting in sin are the ones who fail to look honestly at themselves and how they raised their children and instead point fingers at these young adults who are struggling and trying to make sense of the high-controlling, authoritarian, legalistic environment in which they were raised.” says it all.
For you, sin can only be in one direction. You will never help the abused with that perspective, nor will you when you mock positive steps from leaders instead of encourage them. You are far too strident and off balance to bring about real change. That’s too bad.
Thank you for the conversation.
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It’s interesting that you think a truly “Christian” response is one blog article by 2 Christian leaders from 2011. Big whoop. Now what? What about those hurting kids/young adults? Abandon them?
You, like so many others respond to criticism the same way, by turning it around and blaming the victim. You (collective) give them Bible verses showing them how wrong their actions are and how the lifestyle they are living will lead to hell. Guess what? These kids already have that information. They have hidden the Word in their hearts from an early age until they left home, but that’s probably the only way you (collective) know how to respond to them. And THAT is the problem.
Remember, they are the brilliant ones who memorized whole books of the Bible, got Timothy awards at AWANA. They could probably quote you book and verse on scripture about drinking and sexual immorality, the behavior in which some are dabbling to numb their pain.
Yes, these young adults will have to face the consequences of their choices, but what about those who led them astray by their high-controlling, legalism parenting? When are they going to accept any responsibility? When are these parents going to get real with their kids and humble themselves and admit their failures? If you want to see healing take place, parents who call themselves Christians need to rid themselves of their pride and do their own soul searching, otherwise, they are acting just like Pharisees.
And yes, I get irritated. The “e” on my name is a side issue to the real heart of the matter of children who were hurt/abused. Jesus got irritated about people who hurt children, too. Remember that millstone?
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Julie Anne,
That inability to listen will severely cramp your ability to help anyone. And that rhetoric about blaming the victim is painfully off the mark as well as tiresome. I won’t bother asking where I blamed the victim. I never did that, and I have been helping the abused probably longer than you’ve been alive. That’s why I visited your website. You are new to this, and have all the passion that could help if it was centered on Christ and not your own guilt issues. Of these victims, all I have said is that they need Christ, not encouragement in their unbelief. It’s a simple point. But I fear you have made an idol out of victimization.
I cited the blog article to show you this self-awareness and reflection has already begun among home-school leaders (Yes, I cited a blog…please forgive me. Did you want me to bring them to your house? I thought you didn’t like that sort of thing) and to point out this was going on well ahead of you. Big whoop? Yes, I think for many followers of Mr. Harris, it was important. Did the read the comment following that blog article? Would it help those abused youth who have left the faith to know that some of the names they are familiar with see the problems with their mis-directed goals and poor methods? I think it might. If you don’t need to be the hero, and can accept human frailty in all its forms, then you can help the abused and the abuser.
Instead of scream about it not being enough, a wise counselor would point these errant young people to it, and many other comments and self-reflective talks and srticles like it in the home-school movement, and simpy ask them what they think about it. Does it encourage them? You may even point to how clearly this individual did love his children, even if he was too strict in following his dream, etc. You could tell them Jesus Christ is the source of true healing, and you hope they will look to Him again, and not how His love may have been mis-represented to them.
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R.D.
You’re way off the mark in your comments. .
Especially your condescending assumption that Julie Anne’s ministry is not “centered on Christ.”
Who are you? Do tell.
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RD said, “You may even point to how clearly this individual did love his children, even if he was too strict in following his dream, etc. You could tell them Jesus Christ is the source of true healing, and you hope they will look to Him again, and not how His love may have been mis-represented to them.”
RD, since you’ve worked with the abused for a long time, have you encountered situations where the abused have heard all the religious answers, but the abuse they received involved using the same proof-texts and Biblical ideas that are the answers as controlling, overbearing and manipulative tactics, instead? If so, in those cases, could the abused receive your message when you shared with them?
I’m sure we’d all agree on what are the real answers in the Bible for anyone who rejects the faith, the question is how can the kids hear the message we mean instead of the message their parents gave them … and provoked them to wrath with the very same answers?
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Julie Anne and RD,
One of the things that have exacerbated Spiritual Abuse is that there are many people who profess the Gospel that are in fact Christians but are unable to come up with a consensus on how the Gospel should be interpreted.
One thing is for sure Christian Leaders, Preachers and especially Biblical Intellectuals are in strife over Doctrine and it is spreading throughout our Seminaries, Churches making many unsuspecting congregations unprepared.
The best way for current victims of Spiritual Abuse to heal and also future Spiritual Abuse from occurring is for Seasoned, New and future Christians to identify and take ownership of the Spiritual Gifts God has given us and know the Doctrine of the Church you are attending. (strictly relying on the Biblical Intellectuals who can’t even agree themselves, is a recipe for abuse)
My prayer would be for a Spiritually led web site or a Spiritually led force for different denominations to wake up and teach their Congregations who they are.
This could provide an instant remedy of Healing, Preventing and Educating current and future Church attendee’s to read and then fully understand Doctrinal Statements of Churches and find out what Doctrine the Preacher really believes.
We know Preachers embrace different interpretations of scriptures. One might embrace the way an Arminian Preacher interprets and deliver the Gospel. If a Stealth or Covert Hyper-Calvinist Preacher takes over the Pastorate who interprets scriptures differently, that will create strife,
I could almost guarantee you will have a war and a split in that church. If church attendee’s understood what was going on in the first place we would have less Spiritual Abuse occurring.
“Real Abuse” in Home Schooling to me is complicated. You could be dealing with dysfunction in the family either from the parents or the kids or both depending on mental and spiritual capacities of how they interpret scriptures. You could be dealing with Parents that don’t have the ability to provide the teaching and social skills their kids actually need.
If in fact the church these families are attending practices or believes an abusive interpretation of scriptures where the Pastor of that church, becomes the “Superintendent” of home schooled I can’t imagine the pain some of these Parents and Kids are enduring. I’m sure there are Parents or Kids that feel somewhat trapped into home schooling under a “Hyper-Calvinist” regime. (unless the Parents and Kids embrace Hyper-Calvinism).
In saying this I’m not suggesting Home Schooling is bad, except when there is “real abuse” to the Parents or Kids.
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R.D.,
Wow, I can’t believe how out of touch with Jesus that you are. The whole concept of “religious” homeschooling is not reflecting the love of Christ. It’s about being “obedient” to a religious, self righteous, legalistic rules and regulations centered disciplinarian dictatorship that keeps children in bondage rather than to have freedom, which is what Jesus was all about. The love of Christ is certainly not in you, I can tell. Isolation from the world is not what Christ wanted from us. He wanted us out “in” the world so that we can be fruitful, and multiply our love to others, and be a blessing to everyone we come across. If you want to isolate, fine. But there are Christian parents that do not home school and their children turn out just fine.
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Katie, those are such good questions.
Sometimes the abused do have an antipathy toward Scripture. Some just lose their faith and are still open to the Bible, others are hostile. Of course, we can’t be the Holy Spirit, but we can come alongside with Scripture and the love of Christ. Both the open and the hostile need positive encouragement toward the Lord. With those abused in a Christian context who have faith struggles, you don’t begin with proof-texts about the faith generally, but you begin with how God feels about abuse according to the Bible. The Scripture is full of such passages of course, and Scripture never pretends that religious people will never be abusive or cruel, or misguided. Much of the New Testament is written to Christians who have gone off track, emphasized the wrong things, believed nonsense, etc. The compassion of God in Scripture for the abused and forsaken and downtrodden will help some see that what they experienced was not according to the Bible. But at some point specific problems are a part of man’s larger problem, which is sin. We all have it. Abusers manifest it, but victims aren’t free of it either. I’m not saying to jump on victims about their sin, but one must understand that they are rebels against God in their own way. They don’t need personal affirmation that any way they break free from abuse is good. They need affirmation that the abuse they experienced was bad, and what happened to them was morally evil. It is a dark world we live in because of sin. It may take some time to gently share these things, and then one can move on to their problems of living, their faith, etc. Frankly, every individual is different, so much individual care is needed always.
Will they all come around? Of course not. Young people abandon the faith all the time, and from all backgrounds, kinds of churches and forms of education. In my experience, home-schoolers probably leave a little less often than others, but it happens. Home-school kids tend to reflect their parents strengths and weaknesses often since they spend so much time together. Good homes tend to turn out really excellent people. Troubled parents, and worse, abusive parents can do a lot of damage because there is no escape for the child. It’s 24 hour madness.
Probably the biggest problem with crusading about things is the tendency to lose sight of individuals as individuals. There are seldom “pat answers.” That’s what makes Gothardism and Teen-mania and all those kinds of movements so abhorrent. People aren’t treated with respect as people. But crusading against them can lead to the same kind of groupthink and lumping people into categories. There are many villains and the slightest bit of support for this person or that idea makes one suspect. Christ is the answer, not us.
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Chapmaned24 —- I’m sorry, but I have no idea what I said that you think you are responding to. I think it’s better to leave your comment be.
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Your snarly attitude about sin and wisdom. Your last preaches about respecting people, but I did not sense that in your attitude towards Julie AnnE. I am sorry that you cannot figure out what I said. What does LOVE look like to you? If children are raised with LOVE, and not PROVOKED as scripture warns, then they will do just fine in life. Everyone is a prodigal son or daughter. That includes YOU. Remember that in your self righteous attitude, that you are a sinner, too. Everyone sins each day. You need to bow to your knees just like everyone else does. I do not like your attitude of self righteousness.
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RD, I am glad to read that you don’t begin with proof-texts of our faith.
It seems to me in my limited perspective, that these kids have had enough of being pushed around, manipulated, and told what to think … enough that they would say they were abused. Consequently, I suspect that the Bible verses and principles I would use to try and woo them back, may in fact, push them away; not because the Biblical principles are not true, but because of how those principles had been turned into weapons and used against these kids when they had no voice.
Now that the kids/young adults have a voice, they have to start using it. They don’t know how to get rid of the bad and still keep the good. The lines are too blurred. It’s all wrapped up in the same abusive package.
Though sin has consequences, I think there is little we can do to win these kids back with the exception of living out love for them. I do not need to condone their sin … which they already know I don’t without my telling them, they were raised to know that and they still know it. But when an abused person breaks free, they have to know by actions that those who still consider themselves followers of Christ will love them as they are, even if we know their sins will cost them.
I, personally, don’t think just teaching them the truth about who we are in Christ will reach their hearts. They’ve been taught for a long time, already. That type of message is blocked from the heart out of pure need to survive and self-protect. Remember, those same teachings had already been used as weapons against them. So the question, to me, is how to love them?
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How fascinating that I am being held up by R.D. as an example of what not to be, a damaged human being, ruined by bad parents. That’s quite an assumption, but I imagine a legalist would be very triggered by my assertion that life does not come with a detailed set of instructions. It’s what they seem to desire and hold most dear in this world.
As it is, I had read the Harris blog post and some of the Bradley stuff a while ago, and while I’m glad they are recognizing that there is a problem (really what’s surprising to me is that more are not), I certainly take issue with their solution, which seems to be that “the indoctrination didn’t work properly, let’s try a different way to make it stick.” I believe children are people and whenever you try to “mold” them, rather than just help them develop skills and experiences, you are doing a grave disservice and are also bound to be disappointed. (I mean really, just like my parents couldn’t make me become what they wanted, neither could yours.)
Katie, you are exactly right that that’s how I feel when I go to church or have people quote scripture at me. It makes me feel uncomfortable and like I want to leave. I wrote a blog post on spiritual abuse not too long ago that I think sums it up pretty well.
http://becomingworldly.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/was-i-spiritually-abused/
Julie Ann, I think what you’re doing is awesome and it is nice to see you and some other homeschool parents on here discussing these issues straightforwardly. I think it will help others and I sincerely appreciate that you are doing this work. 🙂
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I just read your linked blogpost, HeatherJanes. Wow! It makes a great deal of sense why you would need to distance yourself from situations with religious overtones. I would too. I’m so sorry you had to go through all that.
I did not experience spiritual abuse as a child, but I’ve known enough situations where I was forced to be voiceless and powerless that I can relate to the anger of feeling unloved and caged. Your response of fighting to live was healthier than succumbing to turing it inward and depression taking deep root. Both can take place, but the will to live causes us to fight for the air we need to breathe.
For me, God came to me in an unexpected way. He cut through all my warped notions of who He is, based on how others defined Him to me through their actions. This is the only reason I can still be a follower of Jesus Christ. I feel loved and safe with Him, now, but not with the church at large. I’ve had to push away anyone who firehoses me with Scripture, or insists I have to forgive when my abusers recognize no harm, or pressures me into anything that they think is what my Christian life ought to look like. It simply has to be real for me and not dictated by someone else.
I still fight to breathe around some types of Christians, but some green pastures have opened up to me in other areas and I feel free! My advice would be to take your time, continue to be honest with yourself as you look at the pain and confusion of it all as you are able, relax and enjoy the life you have now. If God is real, then He will love you in that tender way that all broken hearts need, and you will feel it.
Hugs to you, Heather! God can handle exactly where you are right now. He knows what happened.
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This is in response to R.D’s comment. R.D.’s comment is in bold.
That inability to listen will severely cramp your ability to help anyone.
Can you please show me where I have not shown the ability to listen?
. . I have been helping the abused probably longer than you’ve been alive. That’s why I visited your website. You are new to this, and have all the passion that could help if it was centered on Christ and not your own guilt issues. Of these victims, all I have said is that they need Christ, not encouragement in their unbelief. It’s a simple point. But I fear you have made an idol out of victimization.
I see condescension in this paragraph. Is that what you meant to communicate? You’re saying that I’m too young, to new to this, do this out of guilt, don’t center around Christ, idolize victims. Is this how you typically respond to people?
I cited the blog article to show you this self-awareness and reflection has already begun among home-school leaders (Yes, I cited a blog…please forgive me. Did you want me to bring them to your house? I thought you didn’t like that sort of thing) and to point out this was going on well ahead of you.
I wouldn’t mind having meeting with with these folks, I know you’re just kidding, but I do correspond with pastors this kind of stuff probably on a weekly basis. I was actually thankful that you reminded me about the Bradley/Harris article. I’ll tell you what it did for me – it reminded me of the SGM family of churches (of which Harris belongs) which has a history of covering up abuse and false humility. CJ Mahaney wrote a bestseller on Humility, yet countless pastors who spoke out against him echoed each other in saying his pride was a huge stumbling block to his being a capable leader. So, while the article had the “appearance” of humility and genuineness and maybe it was genuine at the time, I fear that it now it has been more for show than anything – on Harris’ part. It’s like saying, “look I admit I’m an alcoholic and I know what it has done to my family, I’m so sorry” but then you see no evidence of change, no accountability, no real course of action to remedy anything. I say that based on personal testimonies of people currently at SGM or who have recently left SGM. I wish it weren’t so, but that is the feedback I’m getting.
Big whoop? Yes, I think for many followers of Mr. Harris, it was important. Did the read the comment following that blog article? Would it help those abused youth who have left the faith to know that some of the names they are familiar with see the problems with their mis-directed goals and poor methods?
As I said earlier – if it’s all talk, but no action, then the article didn’t do much for those HKs (homeschooled kids). But hopefully it was an eye-opener for the parents. That is what we can pray for.
If you don’t need to be the hero, and can accept human frailty in all its forms, then you can help the abused and the abuser.
More condescension – “if you don’t need to be the hero.” That statement could have been hurtful if it were true. Thankfully, it’s not. But for someone who is in the ministry of helping people, I’m just not feeling the love, R.D.
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Katie – – – this was such a good question – – – it was excellent: I’m sure we’d all agree on what are the real answers in the Bible for anyone who rejects the faith, the question is how can the kids hear the message we mean instead of the message their parents gave them … and provoked them to wrath with the very same answers?
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Mark – I really appreciated the heart of your comment. I think you are right that doctrinal differences definitely come to play in these matters and can complicate things. I’m afraid that in our effort to have the perfect answer, we miss the essentials. Doctrine aside, I think what is ultimately missing is Jesus’ command to love. Love trumps all. That’s it.
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R.D. – I appreciated the manner in which you responded to Katie here.
A couple thoughts: It seems like you have a formula for working out things with those who are “astray” in the first few paragraphs. Yet at the very last paragraph you touched on what to me are key sentences to which we both can agree: Probably the biggest problem with crusading about things is the tendency to lose sight of individuals as individuals. There are seldom “pat answers.” That’s what makes Gothardism and Teen-mania and all those kinds of movements so abhorrent. People aren’t treated with respect as people.
Once again – – I think it boils down to Christ’s admonition for us to simply love. If they cannot see the love of Christ in us as we deal with them, regardless of what state they are in, if they only see us as shoving Bible verses down their throats and warning them about their behavior (they already know all of the above), we will be seen as nags. I think the real lesson they are teaching me is how much can I love? Is it limited or not?
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Ed said: Your last preaches about respecting people, but I did not sense that in your attitude towards Julie AnnE.
JA is cracking up at that bold part – lol 🙂
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Katie said:
Bingo!! Exactly. (I’ve been away for a few hours and catching up.) Yes, this is what I was just commenting about – – how far are we willing to love – – even when they may be acting unlovable? What about that woman at the well – – – I wonder how lovable she was with all of that sin in her life. Christ loved her.
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heatherjanes: Welcome and thank you for your kind words! I’m so glad you stopped by – I wish it could have been on a happier note, but we’ll let that go. I’m glad to meet you and look forward to getting to know you better as we shine the light on this uncomfortable subject.
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Just to be clear, I don’t see us as loving someone who has been burned as simply a way to woo them back to the cage. I see loving someone, who just happens to have been burned, simply because they breathe and have value! They will learn to fly!
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Katie – Thanks for reminding me. As I go about in the day driving to my errands, my mind is constantly thinking about blog conversations, people, etc. And one of the things that struck me was the value of loving someone just because of who they are – who Christ made them to be. My job is to guide, but I’m afraid that at times I harnessed my children, trying to make them fit into a particular mold that homeschool leaders described to us. That is not loving. Love means allowing them to have choices and to think through the consequences of those choices. Love means allowing them to make mistakes and learn from them.
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Oftentimes people will love us to the extent we fit the mold they think we should be in.
Rarely do people feel comfortable with a person being in a long process of unlearning bad “spiritual” input; and learning anew who God really is … sans the “work for my love” kind of god.
I’ve been put down because I experienced spiritual abuse, as if it were my fault, or I am somehow damaged goods. The spotlight always seems to come back to the abused and how they are reacting to their beatings. Perfection is demanded of the abused, while the abuser gets off scott-free … graced over!
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JulieAnne,
1 Corinthians 13 pretty much say verifies the direction our Father in Heaven wants us to apply in our lives toward others. (which is Love)
Unfortunately the lack of identifiable love that Christians have toward one another is why spiritual abuse is getting out of hand.
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Mark,
I fully agree. And since Love fulfills the law, what’s up with all this “obedient” stuff that these “religious” home school cowboys shove down the throats of other peoples children. Other peoples children! What gives them authority to tell other people how to raise their children? God? I don’t think so. Before these “religious” homeschooling experts emerged, how did Christian parents raise their children? How did Christianity survive for over 2000 years without these self proclaimed experts? Just another Dr. Spock, a self proclaimed expert at raising other people’s children. I think that God intended for parents to raise their own children, without outside influence from the self appointed, whether it be secular, or “religious”. I think a few episodes of Little House on the Prairie should teach us something, since it was loosely based on a true story. They had church, they had school outside of church, and they had a home with a loving family that taught them right from wrong. Love is what I saw, not condemnation.
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Ed – It always sounds so simple when you say it.
I need to pull out those Little House Dvds for the kids to watch. Thanks for the reminder.
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Julie Anne, based on the link that R.D. provided, it may be “illegal” for some to watch TV, depending on what self proclaimed religious expert that they listen to, unless they watch it on a television set in the Sears Department Store on accident, with shame and condemnation, lol.
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Ed, if the lingerie department is anywhere near where they sell televisions, we’ve got big-time problems.
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R.D., This comment of yours is exactly how SG responds to abuse situations : “The compassion of God in Scripture for the abused and forsaken and downtrodden will help some see that what they experienced was not according to the Bible. But at some point specific problems are a part of man’s larger problem, which is sin. We all have it. Abusers manifest it, but victims aren’t free of it either. I’m not saying to jump on victims about their sin, but one must understand that they are rebels against God in their own way.” Theologically speaking, this is true. We are all sinners. However, if we approach these issues with our hearts as well, we have to exercise compassion. For a person who has been abused in any way, they do not need to be reminded of their sin. They need to hear about grace and healing. Healing is a process that takes time.
If you are concerned about a blog that seeks to allow victims to have a place to be heard and to tell their stories because they are not all walking with Jesus, perhaps you could revisit the scriptures in which Jesus interacts with “sinners.” For people who have been badly burned by the church, they may not be ready to listen to God and God’s word, but being listened to without judgment by believers is one way they may see a glimpse of God’s love for them.
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This is a Waterboy (The Movie) moment, i.e. “My Mamma says that Sears is of the Devil”.
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Recovering Pharisee: What can I say? You actually quote me saying we shouldn’t jump on victims about their sin, then counsel me that victims don’t need to be reminded of their sin. What prevents you from seeing that this is what I said? I didn’t say bring up their sin, I said UNDERSTAND that they are sinners and in their own form of rebellion. My point from the beginning is that it does not help them to AFFIRM them in their rebellion.
Reading through these comments I find one misrepresentation after another. I will, therefore, simply let my prevous comments stand, hopefully, as an expression of concern for readers without preconceived agendas.
Thank you for letting me post, Julie Anne.
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Well, R.D., Julie Anne asked you some point blank questions in order to clear up some of the misrepresentations that you claim. Are you game to answer up? My point in all of this with you is that there would be no problem in “religious” home schooling if it didn’t exist in the first place. Get rid of home schooling, problem solved. We don’t need outside influence on how to raise our children, especially from people who are self righteous, i.e., you. When you can recognize your own daily sin, weekly sin, monthly sin, yearly sin, and overall sins, then maybe you can show more compassion to the victims of abuse instead of pointing out their sins. Judge not lest ye be judged. Are you willing to be judged? There may be a sliver in their eye, but what about the plank in yours? Children need affirmation, not condemnation. Let the children come unto Jesus FREELY, because as such is the kingdom of God. Don’t SCARE them into coming to Jesus. I am sure glad that I am not your son, or you my father. How would you treat me as a son?
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R.D.: With advance apologies if they have already been answered, in whole or in part, but if you are still here I have some questions for you. Are you a pastor? What education, training and/or experience qualifies you as a counselor? What is your level of education? What church are you affiliated with? Are you a home schooler?
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R.D. Yesterday I spent a good amount of time addressing your comments – some in detail and I’m disappointed that you seem to have ignored them. Why is that?
In your response to Recovering Pharisee, you mention this statement which seems to sum up your thoughts on this topic: My point from the beginning is that it does not help them to AFFIRM them in their rebellion.
I must ask – – WHO is affirming them in their rebellion? You are new to my blog and began by questioning me, so it makes me think you are referring to me. If so, show me where I am affirming their rebellion. That’s a pretty strong accusation.
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Another question for R.D.: Do you happen to have one or more children you consider to be in the kind of rebellion you so quickly ascribe to others?
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Those are good questions, Gary W.
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Okay all, I don’t have time to do this all day again, but for clarity sake I will try to answer questions that seem meaningful. Yes, I am a retired pastor, though still active. Long years of ministry. I have a Master’s degree. I have counseled many, many people over the years in a variety of settings and conditions. My methods could not be more different than SGM or Gothard et al. My church relations are independent Baptist and occasional stints as a chaplain.
We did homeschool a little when our children were young. They all went to High School, some public, some private. They did not dress alike, and my wife never had a homeschool Mom look. We resisted Ezzoism and every other fad that came through. No, my children did not rebel, at least not beyond the norm in testing the waters in the world. We have good relationships with all of them. They are all believers. I don’t care if they homeschool their own children or not, though I think they are inclined that way.
Julie Anne, I don’t usually pursue answering individuals on blogs who repeatedly misdirect and choose to misunderstand. Even though it’s your blog and you should be deferred to more, it didn’t seem fruitful. Your comment “You, like so many others respond to criticism the same way, by turning it around and blaming the victim.” is such an unsupported and wild accusation that it didn’t seem worth a rebuttal. You also said it’s no big deal if people are not healed. I don’t understand that comment at all, so I wanted to probe your spiritual commitment. I think that was reasonable.
Julie Anne, I did not begin by questioning you. I made a very short comment about the home-school movement doing some healthy self-evaluation. Your questions to me were not topic driven, but personal. “Is this how you typically respond to people?” That sort of thing. You don’t answer my questions, and yours are off topic. I wanted to know what you consider a “healed” victim of abuse. One minute you don’t care if they’re healed, the next you are “in the trenches with them.”
I explained exactly what my reason for pointing out problems with H.A. from a Chrisrtian point of view. I went back and read what I said. It’s quite clear. I was alerting you to something you don’t seem to consider. these type of websites reinforce unbelief. That is what is going on there spiritually. Can you find one “testimony” of abuse on H. A. in which the survivor of abuse still loves and serves Jesus Christ, or even wants to? I couldn’t. I know many abuse victims who are free of abuse and others who struggle but who still serve the Lord. Why aren’t they represented on H.A.? H. A. is a gathering place for people who have “survived” Christianity, not just abuse.
Yes, by pointing people to it, and encouraging it, you are in fact affirming them in their unbelief. It wouldn’t hurt you to say to them, “I still believe in Jesus, and the Scriptures, and that motivates me to serve you. I hope you will find Him again.” If you think that kind of thing will damage them or seem unloving, then your purpose and goal is not their ultimate good…their healing. Of course, as you say, “So what if this person is not healed?” Well, so what is they may be eternally separated from God. I think that takes precedence. As a Christian, you are here to represent and magnify Jesus Christ. You are His ambassador. You are not an ambassador if you have nothing to say to unbelief, or you don’t care about it. Katie seems to be the one here with an ambassador’s heart, though I wouldn’t say things just the way she does.
Finally, the whole discussion on love that followed while I had work to do is so unbiblical that it is fruitless to even go there. I can’t imagine how you brought up the woman at the well as some sort of model of the “just be there” love you’re describing. Jesus went straight at her sin. He never let people just “be.” He pointed them to Himself. That’s love.
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Excuse me? A discussion on love is unbiblical? Well, I’m not surprised. The pastor of a Southern Baptist “church” asked me to quit visiting when I questioned the propriety of using a psychologically manipulative and fear inducing hell house event, rather then undertaking to win with love, as an evangelism tool every Halloween. I am increasingly convinced that, if we have not demonstrated His love, we have not pointed people to Jesus. I simply do not find Jesus in most of the conservative evangelical “churches” I have attended. Indeed, I find that they have put their faith in faith rather than in Jesus.
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Sorry, R.D., but I find it hard to blame Julie Anne for being a bit suspicious of you. When I read your initial comments, they sounded very much to me like those of the Pharisees, wondering why Jesus would eat with “tax collectors and sinners”.
You seem to think that the HA blog has some sort of anti-Christian agenda. I haven’t read too much there yet, but I don’t see anything of the sort. Certainly there’s no Christian agenda — because most of those there aren’t Christians. But I also find no anti-Christian, anti-religion or any other kind of agenda. Simply folks with common experiences getting together to share them. That’s it. That’s all. They’re talking about what they’ve been through, and where they are now. And their stories need to be heard, so that everyone can learn from them.
The HA article that you linked to (on the first page of comments) was indeed a little hard for me to read as a Christian. It worries me that Heather might be rejecting any sense of sin, guilt or shame. But I have to remind myself that those concepts have been used to control her in the past. To break free of being controlled, to be her own person, she has to tear down the walls that her parents built around her, to some extent at least. She has to figure out for herself what “right” and “wrong” will mean to her. If she wants our (or anyone else’s) help with that, I’m sure she’ll ask.
Our hostess might very well be an “ambassador for Christ”, as you say. But no matter much experience you have, sir, I fail to see how you can dictate to her how she should go about that. That’s between Julie Anne and her own conscience, with the Holy Spirit’s help. She’s choosing to partner with post-homeschooling folks and let them tell their own stories. I see no problem with that. If you think another route would be better, please try it yourself.
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R.D. – – Thank you for responding. I want to go through your comment and reply to specifics, but don’t have the time right now, but will come back to it. The issue about the woman at the well: the point of that comment was that Jesus met her where she was at – in her sin. I am very well aware that Jesus pointed out her sin. The difference between her and these HK (my new term: think of MKs, PKs, and now Homeschool Kids) is that they most likely could and will tell you their sins and give you biblical references showing that they already know they are in sin. The woman at the well was probably not so well-versed on sin as these HKs. These kids will shut down emotionally if someone starts spouting off Bible verses and telling them they are in sin.
And for the record: I’m not sure you understand what HA is about. It is a place where all former HKs can share their story and where they are now. It is not “endorsing” anything except honesty and a real look at how their homeschooling past has affected them. It just so happens that right now, those articles do represent HKs whose upbringing has had a negative impact on their Christian foundation. I’m sure others will present other sides of the story as the site grows. When my articles appear there, they are the same ones that are here – it’s a reciprocal arrangement – they won’t be altered to edit out references to Christianity. It’s my voice representing me as a Christian homeschool mom, my regrets, my failures, and my hopes now for the future.
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One more thought, R.D. What does healing or healed mean to you? Are you referring to spiritual healing where one is back in right relationship to Christ or are you talking about healing emotionally from hurts/pains/abuse where those pains no longer affect someone?
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“Excuse me? A discussion on love is unbiblical?” This is the best example of what I’m talking about. Twisting words and misrepresentation.
Japan, we can all use sharpening. Nothing wrong with challenging…isn’t that what you want these homeschoolers to do? I haven’t dictated anything. I made a point. It’s a free country. If Julie Anne doesn’t like it, she can remove my posts, or answer as as she sees fit.
You’re wrong about H. A. If it were as you described, there would be positive testimonies about Christ in the mix. They’re not there. Keep reading.
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R.D. – I have sent an e-mail to R.L. Stollar inviting him to respond to your concern that there is an anti-Christian agenda on HA. Side note: if there was such agenda, why would he ask to partner with me and use my articles? Ok, for the next several hours, I will be away and can only respond via smartphone which greatly crimps my style – lol. More lengthy responses will have to wait (too bad for me, lucky for you – lol).
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RD,
You’ve already passed judgment on the website. You said to Julie Anne:
“For you, sin can only be in one direction. You will never help the abused with that perspective, nor will you when you mock positive steps from leaders instead of encourage them. You are far too strident and off balance to bring about real change. That’s too bad.”
Those are harsh words, almost as if they are a curse. I have followed Julie Anne for the past year through her lawsuit and know that she has and can and will help the abused. I believe there are more of us as well who will join along side her. It’s too bad you can’t see that.
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R.D.: No, excuse me again. You said, and I quote, “Finally, the whole discussion on love that followed while I had work to do is so unbiblical that it is fruitless to even go there.” You clearly said that the whole discussion on love was unbiblical. If you think I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say, maybe you would like to explain yourself. That would be legitimate. In the meantime, inasmuch as it is your regular riposte to accuse, not just me, but regular, thoughtful, and credible contributors, of twisting your words, please know that it is my considered assessment that, while you point one finger at your detractors, and maybe not just with respect to the matter of the twisting of words, you tend to have three fingers pointing back at yourself. I begin to fear that I am violating Biblical prescriptions against trying to engage in conversations with people who are unwilling to hear.
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Correction: I used the word prescriptions when I should have used the word proscriptions, meaning prohibitions.
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Based on your tone, R.D. about misrepresentations, maybe you could further clarify yourself. I believe that Serving in Japan quoted you, and then you say that it is a misrepresentation? I don’t follow. But, what I see from you, is that you would rather scare people to Jesus, and that, to me, is a scary dictatorial way to go about it.
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R.L. Stollar from HA just sent me a quick response that he is tied up and can’t engage in the conversation, but said I could post this statement:
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