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I received a private message on Twitter a week or so ago from an elder at a church. He reached out to me after reading Beth Moore’s letter to Christian men. You may recall that Beth Moore, in her letter, asked men to put away misogyny and act Christ-like towards women. Here are a few key paragraphs from Beth Moore’s letter:
As a woman leader in the conservative Evangelical world, I learned early to show constant pronounced deference – not just proper respect which I was glad to show – to male leaders and, when placed in situations to serve alongside them, to do so apologetically. I issued disclaimers ad nauseam. I wore flats instead of heels when I knew I’d be serving alongside a man of shorter stature so I wouldn’t be taller than he. I’ve ridden elevators in hotels packed with fellow leaders who were serving at the same event and not been spoken to and, even more awkwardly, in the same vehicles where I was never acknowledged. I’ve been in team meetings where I was either ignored or made fun of, the latter of which I was expected to understand was all in good fun. I am a laugher. I can take jokes and make jokes. I know good fun when I’m having it and I also know when I’m being dismissed and ridiculed. I was the elephant in the room with a skirt on. I’ve been talked down to by male seminary students and held my tongue when I wanted to say, “Brother, I was getting up before dawn to pray and to pore over the Scriptures when you were still in your pull ups.”
I’m asking for your increased awareness of some of the skewed attitudes many of your sisters encounter. Many churches quick to teach submission are often slow to point out that women were also among the followers of Christ (Luke 8), that the first recorded word out of His resurrected mouth was “woman” (John 20:15) and that same woman was the first evangelist. Many churches wholly devoted to teaching the household codes are slow to also point out the numerous women with whom the Apostle Paul served and for whom he possessed obvious esteem. We are fully capable of grappling with the tension the two spectrums create and we must if we’re truly devoted to the whole counsel of God’s Word.
Finally, I’m asking that you would simply have no tolerance for misogyny and dismissiveness toward women in your spheres of influence. I’m asking for your deliberate and clearly conveyed influence toward the imitation of Christ in His attitude and actions toward women. I’m also asking for forgiveness both from my sisters and my brothers. My acquiescence and silence made me complicit in perpetuating an atmosphere in which a damaging relational dynamic has flourished. I want to be a good sister to both genders. Every paragraph in this letter is toward that goal.
The man who contacted me told me that Beth Moore’s letter was read at their elders’ meeting. He asked me how men could practically put into place what Beth Moore was talking about. Yes!!! I will include his questions and expand them with some of my own. This is the kind of conversations we need to be having in churches.
- There’s a challenge – especially with some cultures within church that the issue stops at the question of sexual immorality and understanding that there were other issues about how men and women relate – especially how male leaders relate were maybe not so easy to grasp for some. How can male leaders engage in healthy relationships with sisters in Christ? How can men uphold integrity for themselves and women in their day-to-day dealings with women both inside and outside the church?
- That whole fear culture – how do we get beyond that?Is there a way to move beyond that in a healthy way?
- How can we talk helpfully and appropriately and honestly as churches in dealing with misogyny?
photo credit: SMBCollege SMBC graduates serve as cross-cultural missionaries and ‘tent makers’ in locations around the world via photopin(license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
On my blog, in the post linked to here, are links to podcasts and videos about the book “The Handmaidens Conspiracy”
_The Handmaidens Conspiracy: How Erroneous Bible Translations Obscured the Women’s Empowerment Movement STARTED by JESUS CHRIST by D. L. Howell_
The author discusses, among other things, some of the favorite complementarian clobber verses and explains how complementarians are misapplying them, getting them out of context. KAS should dig it.
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@ Daisy
I don’t think KAS gives a tiny d*mn or ever will. He is a misogynist. Misogynist need comp. Men like him have the mindset that if their slop hurts women and raped little girls so be it. Men trump all females.
I don’t believe most comp men are Christians at all. They act nothing like Jesus. I think they hate him. Jesus did not have a self-hating female slave under his thump or any miserable kids.
KAS was full blown heartless, arrogant, and dismissive of everything we told him. He did not care that his evil comp hurt little girls; RAPED little girls. He acted like every thug church misogynist I have ever known. But, comp men never want to take the blame. They want God, the Bible, the gospels, women, or children to take the blame for their hurtful selfishness. They have it rigged that they do not have to take responsibility for anything.
Their mentality is scr*w women and children. Men matter and only men matter. My father was comp and I know everything we say on here would make him hate us with a bloody passion. He would not care at all and would be furious we were saying it.
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“Pastor Mark Driscoll comes readily to mind, on that score. He was promoting an incredibly, stupid, Macho, tough guy version of Christianity.”
When these men start going on about their manhoods it raises red flags with me.
They most likely are insecure, misogynistic, and definitely immature. It is such an insecure 14-year-old boy thing to fret about. Please believe me to be a man, a manly man, a real man. It is an obnoxious turn-off; so ninth grade.
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CH,
Didn’t Mark Driscoll mix some kind of strange Reformed Theology and kink ideology that should’ve been left inside the bedroom between him and his wife?
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CH said,
I do think KAS can be tone deaf and insensitive in his posting to this blog on some of these topics, but I don’t think he hates all women or is physically violent towards women (I’ve not detected that in his posts).
A lot of Christian men who support complementarianism may hold unconscious bias or benevolent sexism, as opposed to holding to hostile (overt) sexism.
A lot of them – the ones who don’t hit or rape women – are also complementarian because of the faulty way in which they choose to interpret Scripture, which they likely learned in their church growing up.
Complementarians are consevative Christians, and conservative Christians have a very specific way they interpret the Bible, which may include ignoring the cultural setting and original audience for whom a Bible passage was first written.
These types of conservative Christians (who also usually support complementarianism) think veering away from their very particular type of interpretation is “liberal,” so it’s very difficult to get them to change how they view their favorite “clobber” verses about marriage, gender, divorce, etc., but I’d ask guys like that to view the videos in this post, or listen to the pod casts:
_The Handmaidens Conspiracy: How Erroneous Bible Translations Obscured the Women’s Empowerment Movement STARTED by JESUS CHRIST by D. L. Howell_
There is more than one way of viewing the “clobber verses” that discuss gender, ones that don’t end up short-changing women, advising them that it’s “biblical” for only men to have all control in relationships, church, or that tell them to have to stay in abusive marriages.
Complementarians are CHOOSING the most sexist way to interpret Bible verses as they can – but they think this is proper, God’s intent, and “biblical,” and it’s very sad. They are causing so much needless harm to girls and women.
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_The Global Scourge of Violence Against Women_
Interview by Sandra Morgan, on “Christianity Today’s” site:
From the article:
As a theologian and sociologist, Elaine Storkey has documented how women are abused, exploited, and killed across the globe.
How can men help reverse the tide?
[Elaine Storkey’s reply]:
Men need to consider what they are doing that brings oppression to other people, whether it’s women, or children, or the poor, or humanity in general. And then they need to start changing their behavior, their structures, their outlook, and their institutions.
Women, of course, need to do the same kind of hard self-examination. I’m not suggesting that men are the sinners while we’re sinlessly perfect. We’re in this thing together.
But the male sins of control, manipulation, and dominance are just assumed as the norm in some communities, and that must change.
The result is a degree of commodifying women, commodifying their sexuality, and commodifying their availability, so she’s just something there for him.
Getting rid of those attitudes is what we’re calling men to do. In my experience, a lot of men are doing a good job working on it.
What is a proper biblical understanding of submission?
Submission is giving up what you perceive to be in your own interest for somebody else—ultimately out of reverence for Christ.
In Ephesians 5, Paul instructs wives to respect their husbands and husbands to love their wives.
Submission is a part of respect and also a part of love. People say to me, “Elaine, God never asks men to submit to their wives.”
But submission and love go together.
You can’t have love without submission from the other person. If a man loves his wife, he sometimes submits to her needs rather than his own.
How can the church respond to movements like #MeToo, #ChurchToo, and #SilenceIsNotSpiritual?
Even when people outside the church can’t be bothered about what we’re preaching, they’re still looking to see whether we’re credible in our relationships.
If we model gender equality and gender justice in the church, they’re far more likely to listen to the gospel of Jesus Christ. At the very least, we need to be soaking ourselves in the Gospels and telling the story of how Jesus treated the women he met.
People outside of the church are speaking up for women. If we can’t show at least an equal measure of respect for women in the church, we’re going to lose: from the standpoint of missions, from the standpoint of communicating the gospel. It’s vitally important that we get this right.
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I was intrigued by this on the CBMW site:
C. Objection: Gen. 3:16 says nothing about Eve ruling Adam, but it speaks explicitly to Adam ruling Eve. You have twisted the clear meaning of this text. Sin effected in Adam an illegitimate desire to dominate his wife, despite her continued longing for equal companionship.
Response: The two major problems with the egalitarian view here are: 1) Explaining Eve’s desire as a positive or caring desire fails to account for the fact that this is part of the curse on Eve. Certainly God would not give to her the curse of caring for Adam. Rather, her desire, because it is connected with what sin has done to her, is best understood as a negative, wrongful one. 2) But if her desire is negative, then, it accords exactly with sin’s desire in Gen. 4:7, i.e., a desire to usurp rulership. This, coupled with the identical sentence structure and parallel terminology between the two passages, and their close proximity to each other, leads the complementarians to their conclusion on this important text.
But… this is what God says to Adam.
Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.
So, like Daisy said, there is a “clobber” verse – “her desire will be for her husband”, but it’s not even understood in context.
If we understand Adam’s curse in that context, then God is saying that Adam’s toil is sinful. That is, Adam’s curse is parallel to Eve’s curse. Adam’s good desire to work for food is turned into vanity by a ground that is cursed. In the same way, Eve’s good desire towards her husband and cultivate a good relationship will be turned into vanity as Adam uses his power to manipulate and control her.
If Eve’s “desire” is sinful, per CBMW, then hermeneutically, they must also understand Adam’s “toil” to be sinful.
Thus the CBMW complementarians ignore the clearly parallel curses of Adam and Eve in Gen 3:16 and 17-19 to make a less clear parallel to 4:7. Also, we have to look at this in practice. If the curse on the woman is desiring to rule the man, then wouldn’t we naturally see that many cultures have matriarchal systems? Yet, we find few, if any matriarchal cultures, which would lead us to the conclusion that the curse aspect of the verse is “he will rule over you”.
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Also, the “proximity” argument is probably to avoid having to deal with this verse: “I am my beloved’s, And his desire is for me.” (SoS 7:10). So, clearly here, the “desire for” is not to usurp rulership, but a legitimate loving relationship.
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Mark, it’s interesting because sins desire is clearly poetic, and they try to map it exactly to people. In doing so, they see things that aren’t there imo. Often this will happen when you begin with the end in mind!
Hi daisy! I think many people just don’t question things they are taught until they actually affect them. Men who are not abusive and men and women who are in effectively egalitarian marriages, think this is how comp works and since it doesn’t harm them (much) they do not question. Some people are also probably better able to just filter out the harmful things in practice (personality and other outside influences probably come into play here) while some people take them deeply to heart and try to make them work even when they don’t and cause them harm.
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Mark,
God NEVER cursed Eve. The whole point of Genesis 3:16 was God was warning Eve that Adam was going to wrongfully try to rule her.
Katherine Bushnell’s book gets into the literal Hebrew in this text which describes God as recognizing that the devil had laid a trap for Eve.
Dr. Bushnell writes that “the Septuagint gives the correct reading here, which is (God says to Eve) “A snare has increased your sorrow and your sighing.”
“God spoke warningly to Eve at this time, telling her that she was inclining to turn away from Himself to her husband and that if she did so her husband would rule over her…..this sentence is a warning (not a command).”
Here’s more on that:
Click to access gods_word_to_women1.pdf
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Avid Reader, “God NEVER cursed Eve.”
To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”
You might be able to argue that “he will rule over you” is not a curse on Eve, but I think the multiplication of pain in childbirth is.
Lea, ” I think many people just don’t question things they are taught until they actually affect them.”
Yes, yes, and likewise, they are generally unwilling to admit that there are problems with what they’ve been taught unless they are personally affected by the teaching. So, a complementarian who is a loving and respectable elder and egalitarian husband is going to think that his church and marriage embody true complementarian theology. But, like most schools of thought people take whatever message they want – the abusers will latch on to the abusive aspects, the egalitarian/mutualist will latch on to the service aspects, and the victims will latch on to the worthlessness aspects.
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Mark,
God NEVER said “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth….”
That is a mistranslation of the original Hebrew where God actually told Eve “A snare has increased your sorrow and your sighing.”
God recognized that the devil had laid in wait for Eve and deceived her. Of course there’s a lot more to it than that—but it takes time to really research this.
The whole concept of God cursing Eve doesn’t come from the Bible. It comes from the Talmud which taught the Ten Curses of Eve. Bushnell’s book did a fascinating study on how too much mainstream Christian theology was actually coming out of manmade traditions rooted in the Talmud—instead of coming from actual Scripture.
Mark, we know that you are raising a family right now. We understand that you don’t have much time to really do as much in depth studying that you would normally like to do. So please allow us to save you some time in your research by providing an easy way to do it. Whenever you have the time check this out:
Read just chapters 1-18 of Katherine Bushnell’s book “God’s Word to Women.” These are really short chapters—so its a much quicker and easier read that it sounds. That book gives a fascinating indepth study on how the original Hebrew text of Genesis 3:16 is not the same as the KJV.
Then if you have the time, I’m asking you as a friend to also read paragraphs 89-106 of that book. Here’s the link to a free copy (book is in the public domain):
Click to access gods_word_to_women1.pdf
Here’s a taste:
“The Bible nowhere uses such an expression as “the curse” regarding women. We get the teaching about the woman’s “curse” wholly through tradition. Pain is invariably an outcry of God’s natural law against abuse; and pain must be contrary to God’s will.
This is as true regarding the pain of childbirth as it is regarding any other sort of pain. If this were a lesson in Physiology, we could abundantly account for such suffering as some women endure periodically and in childbirth, quite apart from the fiction that God Himself inflicts such pain upon women. Woman suffers in childbirth more than any other female animal, because other female animals protect themselves, from all possibility of becoming mothers excepting at suitable seasons; they will not brook tyranny in such a matter…”
“Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty…..The vast majority of men would welcome woman’s freedom in everything worth the name. In the past such was not the case, and, as a consequence woman has acquired that spirit of infirmity of which God prophesied when He pointed out to Eve that her “turning” would be to her husband. In other words, she would turn away from God to him, placing herself in dependent relations to him such as she ought to hold toward God alone. This tendency Eve bequeathed to womankind and it has been fostered throughout past ages, and only Christ can cure the spirit……”
“There is no freedom for women excepting escape into Christ the Emancipator; because the bondage is not really of the male’s creation, but of Satan’s; and the reason of that bondage is because Satan knows that “the seed of the woman” will yet completely destroy his seed.”
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Oops, sorry about the formatting folks! [Mod note: I think I fixed it. ~ja]
Correction: meant please read lessons 1-18 and 89-10. Lessons not paragraphs. The book was published over a hundred years ago so there’s no page numbers. Just lesson numbers and paragraph numbers. 🙂
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This is probably one of the biggest spiritual challenges I’m facing right now, so I think it’s worth spending the hours I post here reading instead.
I had already gotten through most of the Fall when I came back and saw your post. My first impression is that a lot of it makes more sense and is more thoroughly researched that comp. stuff I’ve read. I’m still trying to grasp what it would have meant for Eve to have permission to remain in Eden, but even the NASB is pretty clear on the translation. I was reading a bit further (in the Bible) and it’s not clear, if the Bible is making such a distinction between Adam and Eve’s responses that Adam ever believed at all.
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Ummm. . . Mark, Avid Reader, et. al- you realize there was no Adam and Eve, right? It’s a myth. If in doubt, please research Francis Collins, The Genome Project. (Oh, and he’s CHRISTIAN). I suppose you both really believe there was a talking snake, too?
This is the kind of foolishness that does my head in. . . Discussing – ad nauseum – what particular ‘flavour’ one prefers of the Bible selections. Jesus.
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Avid,
WOW! The truth/explanation of Genesis 3:16 directly coincides with Jesus’ words, meant for us today, “My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” From the mouth of our Savior!
This is precisely why Jesus has become my One and Only “pastor”, true Master/Shepherd these days, for He will never lie nor forsake me…..one of His little sheep.
I am still in a state of shock/ and actually shaking me head back and forth, that theologians had to form a council on “Biblical manhood and womanhood.” What in the world are these folks afraid of? True and Biblical liberty and freedom in Jesus Christ perhaps? Perhaps these individuals would have condemned to hell, the sister of a woman who married into our family during WW2. Her job was welding ships together in the tightest of spots, for she was petit and the beads of her weld were considered superior to that of most men. So I often wonder how she fits into the theological position held by the council of the gender bender pseudo-gospel.
Thank-you Avid for making me whole day. You are truly a gem! Blessings to you.
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Katy – thank you very much for your kind thoughts regarding my daughter. I really appreciate your compassion, despite you probably disagreeing with me, all the more so in view of the deafening silence from everyone else, including the blog administrator. Don’t misunderstand me, I wasn’t touting for sympathy, but rather some understanding that I would never endorse or sanction any kind of abusive church system or doctrine, and that it would be nice for such accusations to stop.
The identity politics being played here works against this, however.
I have not set out to antagonise anyone, and have made it clear on numerous occasions just what I mean by complementarian, included repeated requests to be shown where this is abusive – also met with deafening silence. If husbands did what the NT tells them to, there would be no discussion of misogyny in the church. That’s about it. Wives do what they are told to do, and husbands likewise. Simple.
Maybe I would be horrified by what people claiming that horrible label actually do in the States, but I’m not American, and I have never seen this as a cause of abuse amongst all the people I have known.
I am saddened at the indifference shown, business as usual (and a marked absence of discussion the question at the top of the thread!), and the tolerance of verbal abuse (what Irene called vilification). Ironic on a site supposedly dedicated to opposing abuse.
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@KAS
“but rather some understanding that I would never endorse or sanction any kind of abusive church system or doctrine, ”
You do endorse and sanction an abusive doctrine.
Comp is sadistic, misogynistic-slavery, and entrapment of women and girls. You don’t have to do it! You are the selfish man who gets a trapped, @ss kissing, female self-hating slave.
” it would be nice for such accusations to stop.”
As a victim of comp it would be nice if selfish, spoiled, misogynistic men would quit promoting the degrading misogyny slavery that is comp.
“included repeated requests to be shown where this is abusive – also met with deafening silence.”
You have been told many times by victims of the misogynistic slop how it is abusive, but you have such disrespect for women you have selfishly ignored us all.
” and I have never seen this as a cause of abuse amongst all the people I have known.”
Paige Patterson, Bill Gothard, Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips, and Josh Duggar would say they have never seen it cause abuse because they are selfish misogynistic men who are getting trapped, @ss kissing, female slaves out of it. They are not the ones having to live it.
“Ironic on a site supposedly dedicated to opposing abuse.”
KAS you are promoting the misogynistic evil that ruined my childhood and ruined my mother’s WHOLE life. Comp is slavery of women and girls; to make selfish bottom of the barrel men feel good. You are promoting slavery of women and girls.
I do think you would feel more comfortable at a Doug Wilson or Paige Patterson website.
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Carmen, interestingly, a rabbi told me that this is a story about growing up, which makes as much sense as anything I’ve heard tbh.
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KAS, it kind of sounds like you were though?
I am sorry for your family situation. I am sorry for anyone who suffers from abuse. It seemed as if rather than simply sharing, you were using that to bolster your position, though, which it doesn’t.
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I watched a few miniseries on the Civil War era and in a sense, the way they deal with the comp. style doctrine about slaves is that the “good guys” “treated their slaves well”. Now, while this is very honorable for the good guys, the point is that the good guys still believed that they could own another human being, and that that other human being had to obey whatever they told them to do under threat of punishment or worse.
I think this is kinda where I was as a comp. Our marriage was essentially egalitarian, but there was a small part of me that said that, if things went horribly wrong, the nuclear option was going to the church.
That is the message I hear from Piper. If you read between the lines, Piper’s view is wife as property. It’s as if I take a brand new Corvette and start driving it into curbs and trees. Piper says, you’re a wicked man, how could you ever do that to a Corvette? But, it’s not as if he truly cares in some sort of pastoral way about the needs of the Corvette – it’s just a car.
Now, some great car lovers are going to treat that Corvette really really well, but it’s still a piece of property.
Consider that under the complementarian Reformed doctrine of authority, each authority relationship was essentially a form of ownership. Each ‘inferior’ owed each ‘superior’
Q. 124. Who are meant by father and mother in the fifth commandment?
A. By father and mother, in the fifth commandment, are meant, not only natural parents, but all superiors in age and gifts; and especially such as, by God’s ordinance, are over us in place of authority, whether in family, church, or commonwealth.
Q. 125. Why are superiors styled father and mother?
A. Superiors are styled father and mother, both to teach them in all duties toward their inferiors, like natural parents, to express love and tenderness to them, according to their several relations; and to work inferiors to a greater willingness and cheerfulness in performing their duties to their superiors, as to their parents.
Q. 127. What is the honour that inferiors owe to their superiors?
A. The honour which inferiors owe to their superiors is, all due reverence in heart, word, and behaviour; prayer and thanksgiving for them; imitation of their virtues and graces; willing obedience to their lawful commands and counsels; due submission to their corrections; fidelity to, defence, and maintenance of their persons and authority, according to their several ranks, and the nature of their places; bearing with their infirmities, and covering them in love, that so they may be an honour to them and to their government.
Q. 129. What is required of superiors towards their inferiors?
A. It is required of superiors, according to that power they receive from God, and that relation wherein they stand, to love, pray for, and bless their inferiors; to instruct, counsel, and admonish them; countenancing, commending, and rewarding such as do well; and discountenancing, reproving, and chastising such as do ill; protecting, and providing for them all things necessary for soul and body: and by grave, wise, holy, and exemplary carriage, to procure glory to God, honour to themselves, and so to preserve that authority which God hath put upon them.
Does this seem like the proper mold to fit a marriage relationship into?
Does my wife have the right to chastise me, or only me her?
Does she not have a responsibility to provide for me things necessary for soul and body?
What does it mean to preserve authority? (I know how my old church interpreted that!)
Is it legitimate for every so-called authority relationship to be squeezed into the same mold, whether master/slave, parent/child, elder/member or husband/wife?
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Dear KAS,
Appreciate your kind response and I do know that you were not begging nor remotely hinting for pity or any form of self sympathy. I can sincerely identify with your daughter and had she been closer to my farm, we could have shared confidences in support of one another’s healthy and well being. I have found the greatest support, encouragement, and Biblical love outside of the institutional church system, for when I have addressed the Baptist pastor of my past church with hurt/concerns, he ALWAYS defended the perpetrator man/men. NEVER has he understood the sin involved, nor the level of depression/darkness that I went through in trying to end all of the pain and agony in my life.
But JESUS knew, and at that particular moment in time, I literally became a born again Christian, so I do understand the conversion process personally within me soul. For without Jesus, the Living Christ, making Himself known to me at that pivotal point, I would not be here, nor would my life count for anything. So I do know the real Jesus of our Holy Scriptures personally, without any human authority lording it/anything over me, which is why I can identify with the “all authority” clause of Jesus’ words per Matthew 28. It is also so incredibly joyful to me, in knowing what true liberty and freedom looks like according to the faith once and for all delivered to the saints (that’s us!) No longer am I in bondage to the Nicolaitan system, condemned in the Book of Revelation. So when I am led to make a baby blanket, for example, I can do so freely, without the “permission” of a church authority figure over me. In my last abusive Baptist church, after our Sunday School class sessions, there were always “child loners” roving around looking for someone to visit with, but no one gave them the time of day (I see this in every institutional church system), so I was led to invite those children behind the curtain into our classroom to color quilting blocks with fabric ink markers, to be sewn into baby blankets for the shiny new babies being born into our assembly. When wind of this reached a certain few women church board members, you know, the important religious folks within the 501c. 3, I was told, “You need to run this by the “BOARD” before you do something like this.”
Seriously? Blessing shiny new babies with blankets fashioned by children NEEDS to be brought before the Pharisee BOARD before the leading of the Holy Spirit? And the thing of it is…..my name was no where included in this process as I believe all of the credit/glory/greatness belonged to our LORD Jesus Christ. The blankets were mailed to the family with no name or return address attached, but instead read, “made and given to you especially by the children of the church, because we love you.”
This is part and parcel why I do not believe misogyny of any kind will be eliminated from the organized church due to the pride factor of any form of human lordship or leadership; it will continue to grow and get worse before Jesus’ Second Coming.
Yes KAS, we do disagree on many a point due to our particular lifestyles which affect our theological thinking and interpretations of the Scriptures. We do know that each human being is created in the image of our LORD and that every soul is desperately in need of Jesus Christ, including your daughter, you, myself, and every individual commenting here.
I praise our LORD, that your daughter has you for a caring father, that will defend her, nurture her back to healthy, and has a compassionate listening ear. You cannot solve her problems, but a listening ear assists greatly in believing her truths and offering help where and when it is needed. And I’m thankful that you are a believer in our LORD Jesus Christ for salvation alone, which makes it easier for me to converse with you in trying to understand what you are saying. Also, after devouring the Gospels immediately upon conversion and continuing to meditate on them, instead of the vain philosophies of men and women, I am confident in the LORD, and will never again allow any religious man or women try and devour my soul for their pleasure. NOPE……will never happen again for I know Who my true Shepherd is…….and I fully know that Jesus wasn’t a conservative, nor was He a liberal, Republican nor a democrat……nor was He a Pharisee or Sadducee…..which has freed from all of the lies I used to believe about Him from the visible church.
Just said another prayer for your daughter this morning, not because I’m so great and wonderful……nope…..no way…..because Jesus is greater than any of us…..and because I love your daughter without having met her……Jesus loves her first and foremost!
Blessings to you and your beautiful family KAS. I am glad you are here.
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Please forgive the typos……too much dirt between me fingers…..will blame the wonderful dirt!!!! 😉
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Katy, “When wind of this reached a certain few women church board members, you know, the important religious folks within the 501c. 3, I was told, ‘You need to run this by the “BOARD” before you do something like this.'”
My former church had pretty much the same thing going on. One time during the yearly congregational meeting, someone proposed a “mission committee” to inform us about what was going on in the life and work of missionaries in our sister churches. They were taking nominations for the committee chair, and that led to a half hour long discussion about how pretty much each and every person in the congregation would like to be informed, all to be written into the job description of the committee chair. I finally raised my hand and said something to the effect of ‘I don’t think anyone in their right mind would volunteer for this. Maybe we should drop the job qualifications and let the chair create their own role?’ That didn’t go over so well.
But, yes, there were the self-important people within the 501c.3 organization who, completely apart from the supposed authority structure of the church, took it upon themselves to tell people exactly what they should be doing. The problem was that the “board” didn’t have the backbone to hold these people in check. In one case, the church voted to authorize a group to perform a task. The group showed up only to have the “self-important” people tell them to stop because they didn’t like how it was being done. When I complained to the board about this, they just said, “you can’t assume that they were given blanket authority…” I responded, “what authority were they [self-important people] given to stop the work or to oversee the project?” [crickets]
KAS, that’s pretty much how I see comp. doctrine in practice. Theoretically, there are all these checks and balances and proper roles and responsibilities built into the very fabric of the church that are supposed to enable freedom. In practice, though, when wolves and abusers infiltrate the authority structure of the church and start abusing the flock, the checks and balances fall by the wayside and it becomes people taking sides with their peer authorities or potentially people being afraid to take the side of the weak against the strong. I think this is in no small part because the language of comp. documents like the Larger Catechism above, is so glowing towards the ‘superior’ authority, such that Christians get deluded into a sense of presumed innocence towards the authority.
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KAS said
I have addressed these very topics in several posts i this thread.
It’s not true that “gentle” complementarianism practiced “biblically and properly” as you have defined it is non-abusive.
I explained that in posts on this very thread, as well as in posts on previous threads, as well as posts on my own blog, which I have linked you and others to.
Abuse is not just about rape, broken ribs, and slaps across the face, as I’ve explained.
KAS, your type of loving, nice, sweet, “biblical” complementarianism creates its own set of problems for and in women and girls, which I’ve explained on this thread (and on my Daisy blog) ten times over.
KAS, you keep promoting the “No True Complementarian” fallacy, which addressed on web pages such as this one:
_John Piper and the No True Complementarian Fallacy_
KAS, have you done any research at all on the phrases “Benevolent Sexism” or “Unconcious Bias” in terms of sexism?
You really ought to.
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KAS ought to read this post as well:
_Will the real complementarian please stand up?_
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(A post I left for KAS directly above is sitting in moderation. It just contains a link to another blog page)
KAS said,
Interesting that you use the phrase I.P., “Identity politics.”
IP is a hallmark of liberals. I’m a conservative, not a liberal.
Doubling down on complementarianism will not remove misogyny from the church, KAS:
Complementarianism, even the variety you believe in, is a large basis of the misogyny that is practiced against girls and women in Christianity.
Your type of complementarianism results in the Paige Pattersons who run entire seminaries and denominations and who won’t report rapes of female students to the police, but who cover up those rapes (Google for Patterson’s name if you do not know who he is, KAS.)
KAS: other complementarians who do NOT physically or sexually abuse women (as far as I am aware), the type of men who practice YOUR endorsed form of complementarianism, include (but is not limited to), Mark Driscoll, Douglas Wilson, Bruce Ware, Doug Phillips, John Piper –
And while none of those complementarian men hit or rape women (so far as I’m aware), they do never- the- less behave as though women are “less than” men, they do things such as make passes at and _masturbate on teen-aged nannies_ who work for them, they coach women to stay in abusive marriages, refer to women in derogatory terms (such as “p3nis homes”), they marry known pedophiles to naive young Christian women, etc.
Misogyny has different forms, and it does not always manifest itself as physical beatings and so on.
KAS, your brand of complementarianism is responsible for the justifications and mindsets that these men use and have to think it’s acceptable to do these things to women, to treat them unfairly, to bar them from leadership roles based on their gender alone.
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Sorry, also, I spent many years in that church trying to call out certain aspects of the abuse of authority, and the result was years of spiritual and emotional abuse meant to undermine any sway I might have with the congregation. I went to another church and the abuse started ramping up there, too.
That’s when I started realizing that perhaps there was a reason that ACCOUNTABILITY and ABUSE were not mentioned in the Larger Catechism. Leaders in the false church do not want to be held accountable for their actions, and they do not want scrutiny for their abuse of the flock. Thus, you will find crickets when you search 501c.3 church constitutions for any sort of positive prohibitions against abuse of authority, or protections for the flock against abusive elders.
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Mark:
_Justifying Injustice with the Bible: Slavery_
Yes, the “women equal in worth just not in role” is the sexist Jim Crow version of “Black people are to be separate from white, yet they are equal” rhetoric.
And Christians who used to defend slavery – whites owning blacks – were just as convinced that the Bible justifies that action, justifies white leadership over all blacks, as complementarian Christians today are just as convinced the Bible teaches male rule of women. They use the same interpretative methods when reading the Bible.
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About Adam and Eve in the Genesis account.
Not all Christians fully agree on if Adam and Eve were historical figures or not.
Jesus Christ referenced Adam and Eve in the Gospels.
But there are some Christian bloggers out there who either host blog posts saying they don’t believe Adam and Eve were literal beings, or, they provide neutral book reviews of books by Christians who promote the view that Adam and Eve were not literal or actual beings but literal devices employed by the biblical writer(s) to make a bigger point.
Even if Adam and Eve were not literal, historical beings, it would not necessarily invalidate the rest of the Bible, or the Gospel story itself.
Off the top of my head, I know Christian bloggers Peter Enns and Scot McKnight (of Jesus Creed blog) often discuss this issue, for anyone who is interested.
_Adam and the Genome: Some Thoughts from Scot McKnight_ – on bioLogos site
_The “Historical” Adam_ – on Jesus Creed blog
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And, to wit, the church turned a blind eye to slave owners impregnating their female slaves, then treating those children [their own children] like slaves to be bought or sold.
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(part 1)
Christianity Hurts said (to KAS),
KAS has been living in his complementarian bubble where he thinks if men just love and respect women, then women in the church won’t be abused.
KAS’ first false assumption, I think, is that complementarianism teaches men to love and respect women.
Which is absolutely False.
Complementarianism is primarily consumed with telling women to submit to male leadership.
Complementarianism is obsessed with who has the power and control in church, marriages, and elsewhere.
Some complementarians are adamant that only men want and need respect, while only women want or need love: so complementarian men are taught that women don’t need or want respect.
If a complementarian man does not abuse females, but thinks females should be valued and cherish, he is not getting that value or view point from complementarianism, but from the rest of the Bible, where Jesus Christ tells men (and women) to “love your neighbor as yourself.”
Complementarianism is not about teaching love, mutuality, compassion, and other traits and behaviors that are conducive to non-abusive relationships:
Complementarianism, even the “nice” type KAS believes in and is promoting on this blog, is about telling people that a deity supposedly supports all-male power and control over women.
(Teaching one group, such as men, that God sanctions their control over an entire other group of people, such as women, is NOT conducive to healthy, mutually beneficial relationships but is the anti-thetical of that,
—and again, KAS, if you are reading this, that is just as much true of your “sweet, kind” type of complementarianism, as is the more obviously, overtly authoritarian, violent type.)
A Christian person does not need complementarianism to teach them or tell them to be kind and respectful to women – the rest of the Bible already tells you to treat others with respect, regardless of their biological sex.
Complementarianism, even the sort KAS is advancing on this blog, is concerned with, among other things, keeping women in line, convincing Christian women it’s in their benefit to let men have all control and power and perks in church and relationships.
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(part 2)
(reminder of what prompted me to do this post):
Christianity Hurts said (to KAS),
Another problem is, men such as KAS (who don’t, I assume, physically abuse women) are living functionally as egalitarians.
This makes it ten time more difficult to get a complementarian guy like KAS to see that even his type of complementarianism is abusive and sexist in and of itself, even if he is not personally slapping his wife around or molesting girls.
KAS personally does not (I assume) rape or slap his daughter or his wife, and he utilizes a “flat” reading of the Bible, where, in one verse, it talks about wifely submission.
He thinks so long as he believes in complementarian things like “wifely submission” but he is not also hitting or molesting girls, that complementarianism is keeping him from raping and hitting females, so gosh golly, if only other men would also believe in complementarianism (but practice functional egalitarianism) as he does, problem solved!
I have tried explaining to KAS ten times over, and/or linking to him pages that explain, that complementarianims itself, even when believed by non-abusive men by him, is at the root of the sexism and misogyny in the church.
(The men who do hit their wives and molest girls are using the SAME exact Bible verses and hermeneutics that KAS does to try to justify male control over women and unilateral wifely submission.)
Regarding KAS:
Because complementarianism works for HIM personally and HIS MARRIAGE (but again, he appears to have a functionally egalitarian marriage), he remains oblivious to all the underpinnings of comp that make it abusive and sexist, and/or that make it ripe for taking advantage of by men who are prone to abuse females.
This is one reason I think KAS needs to do a lot of reading on the topics of “Unconcious Bias” and “Benevolent Sexism.”
Men – even the ‘nice’ ones who don’t beat women – do adhere to a lot of sexist attitudes towards women but are blind to it, because it was driven into them by their cultural surroundings.
Sexism and sexist assumptions about girls and women comes to be seen as “normal” when one is surrounded by it all the time.
Complementarianism feeds sexism, it does not halt it.
Complementarianism feeds abuse of women, it does not halt it.
If KAS is kind to women, it is in spite of his complementarian views, not because of his complementarian views. (As I’ve said before.)
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Yes, it’s a way of shutting down discussion. Because instead of wanting to a. Point out real issues with doctrine and the fall out of such, and b. Wanting to be treated like adult real human beings, not extensions of men, we’re just playing politics.
No.
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And the only thing comp men can agree on as a ‘role’ is ‘OBEY men’. (That’s not really a role, ya’ll.) If you ask them to define it down, they might spout something about taking care of kids and husband…oh, don’t have either? They get lost. And they all disagree on what other stuff you can do, because there is no ‘biblical’ exclusionary list of stuff women are allowed do. So it’s all nonsense.
The bible says there is no male and female, we are all one in Christ Jesus. I think that’s enough for me.
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I was reading a church paper on a different societal issue. There was a lot of scientific understanding of the issue, emotional understanding of the issue and it seemed the pastor’s heart of the author came out loud and clear, then….
“But the Bible says…”
After that point, it was all about forcing what was assumed to be a proper Biblical hermeneutical construct on this, which was essentially anti-science, anti-emotional, and anti-pastor’s heart – all while assuring the reader that this is what God wills, is best for all involved, and must be obeyed.
I think complementarian doctrine follows that same pattern. We understand the need for parents and spouses to be equal partners with equal respect, from the scientific perspective, from the emotional perspective, and even from our heart, but then the comp. pastors say, “But the BIBLE says…” and in comes anti-science, anti-emotional, anti-common-sense rhetoric about God-given roles, sacrifice, suffering for God’s sake, “willing obedience to their lawful commands and counsels; due submission to their corrections”.
And, I think Daisy hit the nail on the head. Complementarian theology is not needed when the husband and wife are acting out the other passages in scripture where we are told to love one another and submit to one another. It’s “needed” when the husband wants to manipulate and control his wife and the wife is not treating her husband as “superior[] in age and gifts; and especially such as, by God’s ordinance, [] over [her] in place of authority, whether in family, church, or commonwealth.”
And that’s why it is not a surprise when women, children and lay members of the church find the devastatingly recurring theme of “obey, submit, return, suffer” when they look to the church to hold their “authority” accountable for abuses. This is not an anomaly. This is the logical conclusion of complementarian theology. The church can’t punish a husband for “not loving” his wife, but they can sure punish the wife for “not obeying” her husband. Many in my former church were excommunicated for “insubordination”, but as far as I know, none have ever been excommunicated for “abuse”.
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Yes. And some of this gets to what the meaning of submission is…if it’s ‘obey at all costs’ well, that’s obviously not going to work out very well. And of COURSE we can’t have all believers submitting to each other, including husbands and wives, because that would be chaos. We can’t obey everybody that comes along and tells us to do something.
But if it means preferring one another in love, listening, respecting, and trying to obey the golden rule? That is easily done in a partnership. There is easily ‘mutual’ submission.
Comp theology breaks down when things go wrong because they have no true answer or solution. They just say ‘if you did it right’…Well. It’s not working. Now what? And the answer is always useless or harmful, as we see over and over. Yes, abuse can happen in many settings, but the response differs.
This shows you where people’s priorities are.
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I just finished writing a post on my Daisy blog, and my posts to KAS above on this blog gave me some of the ideas to include in the post:
_Why Gender Complementarianism Contributes to Sexism and Abuse of Women and is Ineffective at Halting It_
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Wow Mark….you are on a roll (not to be confused with “role” :)! There is much agreement with the points you making concerning the issue of complementarianism.
Ya know….our after dinner discussion today (on the farm we say “dinner and supper”) focused on what our churches were like during our youth and how much love and encouragement we received. My spouse’s church was made up of unloving adults who were highly competitive amongst one another…..so the “big out-do” was the theme of their meetings. The church of my youth on the other hand was made up of middle to lower class farmers with a few small town folks added to the mix. I never ever heard a sermon on “complementarianism verses egalitarianism” or “men’s roles verses women’s roles” within society or the “church.” It just wasn’t there, even when I was old enough to listen and understand the Scriptural material the pastor was reciting. Nor did I ever hear the word “submission” shoved down our throats or sermons on sex, sex, and more sex. It seems as though since the vain philosophies of man (and women) have entered the modern church, submission to Jesus Christ has been replaced with gender wars, role playing (because men and women can’t figure out how to do life together according to the fruits of the Holy Spirit), charters/declarations/documents/covenants and contracts to sign, and just plain stupidity because now instead of hearing the phrase “don’t put god in a box!”, the church is packing up its people into nice, neat gender boxes and calling it “c’hurch.” And if the believer strays from these vain philosophies within the c’hurch, there will be hell to pay…..especially from the important Christians (?) amongst us. “Don’t deviate for Pete’s sake!”
Somewhere down the line, the organized church slid into the mudhole of trying to squelch the working of the Holy Spirit within the individual believer, and the “gender thing” has been a clever tactic of the misogynist as well as the female narcissist with regards to Christianity. So thankful I didn’t hear all this garbage during my youth, for it would have paralyzed my faith in Christ alone for salvation, thus needing a human mediator between my Father Who art in Heaven, and meself.
So why does organized Christianity feel the “need” to identify with a complementarian view or an egalitarian view? And if Jesus were walking amongst us today, ministering to both men and women, and especially treating women just like He did back in His day……..would the dominant/famous/important preachers of our day, hate Jesus as well, seeking to execute Him all over again because of the Way in which He treats sinners/women/the poor/the outcasts/the sick and dying/the widows and orphans/the wealthy/the criminals……..souls who desperately are looking for the Hope/a Savior?
I ponder that long though often…..for deep within me soul, I believe I already know the answer to me own questions.
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Katy, “Somewhere down the line, the organized church slid into the mudhole of trying to squelch the working of the Holy Spirit within the individual believer, and the “gender thing” has been a clever tactic of the misogynist as well as the female narcissist with regards to Christianity.”
One of the conclusions that I came to about the modern Evangelical church is that the working of the Holy Spirit is either put in a box or denied. Put in a box meaning that no matter how bastardized the process a church puts in place to elect “their man” as church leader, the Holy Spirit will “bless” that because they checked all the boxes. I’ve seen a man paraded in front of the congregation, nominated for office by the church leaders, and then praised by the leaders before a vote by the congregation. Yet, they were thankful that the Spirit has led this man to be elected.
That comes to my second point – they deny the work of the Holy Spirit in individuals. In this case, somehow obviously, the congregation could not be trusted to do “God’s will” so the leaders used every manipulative tactic they could to let the congregation know, in no uncertain terms, what God’s will was for them.
In the same sense, since people cannot be trusted to find truth in the spirit for themselves, the preaching is “do this, don’t do that” – a rulebook for Christian living. That’s because even a Christian husband and wife aren’t going to be able to find and follow Christ’s leading for their marriage. Instead the pastor has to tell them Christ’s will for their marriage. It’s as if the Holy Spirit does not exist.
In the same way, when it comes to discipline, the leaders of the church (or ACBC counselors), once they identify THAT SIN in someone’s life, have to commence barking and nipping at the member’s butt to make sure they return to the straight and narrow. If God isn’t convicting that person to repent right then, the church needs to ramp up the discipline – monthly meetings with the pastor and leaders, and 6-12 months, if the Holy Spirit of the box hasn’t worked, then it’s time to excommunicate… for “insubordination!”
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I had forgotten about this post on my blog. It’s also applicable to KAS’ points in this thread:
_How Some Family Values, Republican, Christian, Complementarian Men Understand Ephesians 5:22_
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Here’s another one I forgot, that’s kind of related:
_Bible Passage Used to Stop Women Become Ordained ‘Added Later’, Academic Claims_
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I remember that I was mad on my last – and only – comment here… I like this place, reminds me that I’m not alone in this misogynist madness.
Well, here in Brazil is the same or worst than USA or any corner of this world.
“Obey your husband, the Bible say that…”, “Be submisse, God will reward you”, “He didn’t hit you because he don’t love you, it’s just an brief anger problem”, “He will change, trust God! Where’s your faith?” and so on…
And no, I don’t think God loves me, and no, I’m not even a feminist or liberal – in fact, I was conservative since my teens. I’m 23 yo, afraid of marriage – afraid beatings, marital rape, afraid of the subservient role. I don’t want a boss, I want a partner. I want kids, not opressed miniatures of me, to perpetuate an horrible cycle. Well, I don’t spend anyone time telling what happens around here, I bet there’s will be no surprise to you. Misogyny in chuches, no, in Christianity is a worldwide problem – kind of a domesticated Islam. And no, I don’t hate men, I just don’t wanna they rule over me, as same I don’t wanna women to do over then – that’s why I don’t label myself as a feminist.
First, if men and women are as one in Christ, and both bare God’s image, why have one more capable, more responsible, with the ‘superior’ role? “Don’t get mad, you’re understand it bad, you’re equal to men in God’s eyes, there’s just a diference in your role”. Oh yah. I’m supposed to stay home, produce childs like cars in a assembly line, never work outside (even in a screaming financial crisis), and, OF COURSE, never complain about it. Ok, your (in)dependence and self esteem are limited to a person, sinner as you.
Second, when you experience domestic violence, the way you see the reality change, at least a bit. Feminists/equalitarians doesn’t sound so devilish and destrutive as the complementarians sell to you. Maybe they’re right that hit your spouse is bad – now that your nose is bleeding and you’re ashamed to explain your family and friends (if your owner (husband or father) don’t alienate you from then) what happened with one of your eyes. And more: your husband always says “you makes me so mad that I could kill you”. A warning to get out and save your @ss from the kicking? NO, it’s time to prey and be submissive. Oh, don’t call the cops, the couseler can solve this out – go home and bake him a pie, or ask him to buy you a new lingerie, unpleasant sex will help. It’s not a cartoon episode nor a happyhour joke, but churches (and most of its influent members) handle this potential fatality with some biblical passages and let it go. Divorce? Literally, over his dead body (the reason I’m advocate for women kept guns). If they can’t go away and their owners (keep in mind: women are men’s property, the “head” rule implies so) can’t cope in a civilized and non-force way, at least women should defend (I’m exclusively talking about self defense, pals) themselves and their kids from a monster. I don’t think that a home under violence (and often rape) is healthy for any child (and they can send back children to a rapist arms, but never to a caring gay couple – you know, cheat and rape isn’t worse than homossexuality…). We all know that monsters make new ones. Boys (and girls) can became what they see at home, so I rather put a bullet on a rapist head than give ground to him raise my own son this way (and to disgrace other people later).
Third: This brainwash works in presence of fear. “Dear sister, you’re sppiting in Christ face when you say “no” to your husband sex needs! We already know you’re pregnant/you was raped/he physically hurts you, but, you don’t understand male desires, and ’cause OF YOU he fall in sin, he is cheating ’cause you’re a stubborn and selfish wife!”, “Your man need to be fulfilled, deny him have sex from you whenever he wants, and whatever he wants is insubmission – you’re breaking God’s laws!”, and so on. They call it “victimism”, “feminist slutness”, not threats inspired merely on gender. Basic rights to women, like vote or work, is “worldly view”, and, on it’s own, satanic. You’re not a godly wife if you don’t allow abuse in name of love, no, worse, in God’s name.
Fouth: You’re walking by a street, and if someone yells at you “hey, scumbag, you’re a piece of sh*t”, you’ll be angry. Maybe you’ll walk away and forget it, or yell back, or even kick this person’s @ass. But, if this same person complete “Because God’s say so”, everything changes. Just plus on it some biblical verses and, voilà, you have a biblical truth. In my teens, I used to think “ah, the wolves in sheep clothing works this way”. No, I was wrong. They’re simply follow the same Bible I’ve been read. “No, God don’t like misogyny, this is blasphemy! How these men dare to say such hateful things? Shame on then!”. Yeah, is hate, but the truth of the religion I’d loved, too.
And, finally: “rebel women” problems like menstrual periods, psysical pain, trauma/PSTD, depression, stress or suicidal thoughts fueled by inferiority teachings based on your fuc*ing gender doesnt matter when it’s about the ruler’s (often sex, control, money) needs. If you, woman, want independence and run your own business, you’re selfish. But, when men wants rule YOU, it’s “God’s way”. I’m quitting this, for my mental health. I don’t need (and shouldnt) worship a God who hates me. “Oh, you’ll burn in hell, then”, I was there already, thanks. And, I struggle to understand why you still insist to explain something to complementarists, particularly the male ones. They don’t came here to read/listen, but to speak ABOUT THEMSELVES, like it is in their churches and homes. No matter what you say or show, they’ll hit us harder. It’s useless – like explain to a rapist why is wrong rape people.
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(Reposting a missing part of my comment)
I remember when I’ve come up as a Christian in my house and in my school. I happily defended God’s word in debates, fought “marxist neo-atheists family-haters”, was a total gospel jerk over people like myself today – lost, feeling betrayed, and doomed. I’d try to give my best for a God who hates me, buying His fight against Satan forces. I didn’t accept the facts: God have plans for men, and hell for women. I was a screwed mind (worse than now), a Lori Alexander prototype in the past, in denial. But, in the end, I’m happy that I’ve left the “bully role” reserved for the christian men. One point, Christianity is right: woman, don’t wanna be the head – don’t wanna be someone’s opressor. In time, I hope learn to accept myself as a woman – not a christian submissive woman, but a complete and capable human being… With a vagina.
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Hi Mark,
Well—I’m impressed that once again you are way ahead of me! That’s great that you were already reading that much of it. I hope that you will be able to finish the whole book.
Yes, I agree with you on not being convinced by her theory that Eve wasn’t kicked out of the Garden. There are things in this book that didn’t make sense to me. But as there’s still so much power in this book that it’s worth reading the whole thing even if we disagree with parts of it.
This book really opened my eyes to how Comp theology was teaching the Ten Curses of Eve instead of the actual Bible that Jesus came to set the captives free.
Keep in mind that the context of this book was her life’s work on the front lines of fighting human trafficking. So her whole perspective comes from dealing with the reality of abuse instead of the denial of reality that too much Comp theology is rooted in.
Also, if you have time, here’s something else that you would find fascinating. Read just the back appendix to the book Beyond Sex Roles by Gilbert Bilezikian. He does one of the best in depth study on the Greek word “Kephale.” Definitely worth your time if you’re interested in more on this.
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Carmen,
We understand where you are coming from on this. We both want the exact same thing—for women to be empowered. For women as adults to make their own choices without having to ask permission like children.
Please understand that we are both heading towards that same goal even if you disagree with the road we are taking there. Even if you have a different opinion on the story of Adam and Eve, please understand that the false idea that God cursed Eve has real life implications to many people today. That’s the whole root of Comp theology.
So it matters that we take the time to uproot the tree of misogyny. Of course, you’ll reply to this, telling us that we are totally wasting our time. But if what we do here helps others break free of what is holding them back, then it does matter—no matter how many people criticize us.
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Ana, yes. I’ve seen these sorts of arguments too.
One of the major preachers types, Keller maybe?, said something like ‘women are biased in their interpretation because they don’t want to be submissive’. Then he says ‘men are biased too BUT…’
Pfft.
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Ana wrote:
“If you, woman, want independence and run your own business, you’re selfish. But, when men wants rule YOU, it’s “God’s way””
That’s true that Comp theology focuses on blaming women for everything just like Adam blamed Eve. Even “warm and fuzz” Comp theology still emphasizes putting the “rebellious” label on women.
The truth is that women aren’t the rebellious ones. The devil is the rebellious one. Comps are too because Comp theology is disobeying God’s commands in several ways including denying women the ability to say “yes” and “no” as Christ taught.
Ana:
“I struggle to understand why you still insist to explain something to complementarists, particularly the male ones. They don’t came here to read/listen, but to speak ABOUT THEMSELVES, like it is in their churches and homes. No matter what you say or show, they’ll hit us harder. It’s useless.”
Well, you are right that they aren’t listening to us. However plenty of other people are listening. We hope that the more we think through these lines of reasoning, the more we can help people break free of human traditions to find the truth that the whole reason Jesus came was to set the captives free. That includes freeing women from the oppression of Comp theology.
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AR, there is an interesting parallel. I had a conversation once with a seminary professor about Uzzah – the guy who touched the Ark and was struck down. His claim was that Uzzah was not saved, because it would not have been a capital offense to God for a believer to touch the Ark.
Also, I’ve heard pastors talk about the angel guarding the Tree of Life – not from believers, but unbelievers. So, that is not new.
That’s what makes me not completely discount her claim. She owned and repented of her sin and Adam threw her under the bus.
The other thing I’m struggling with in her writing is that, presumably back then, the comp./patriarchal opinion was that “submit” = “obey”. Not that there aren’t pastors today who push obey in wedding vows. It just seems that the view has softened somewhat from complete servitude and obedience, even when such commands seem to contradict your inner compass, to obedience as long as you’re not being told to sin. That definitely softens the blow of some of her arguments – such as “you can’t serve two masters” – since comps. would say that the husband’s job is to represent Christ, not stand opposed.
I do struggle with a lot of her more detailed arguments – she seems to hint at this great argument, and then gets into microscopic detail without pulling all the pieces together.
However, the claim that our present Bible is strongly influenced against women by the work of the Judaizers is a clear and well-substantiated argument, and that seems to be a core argument in much of the comp. literature talking about women.
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Mark, I have been thinking the opposite – they used to just say something about a random tiebreaker occasionally. Obeying in all but sin is no life.
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Katy – your prayers are really appreciated. I am very aware there is a spiritual warfare going on in the background to this, as well as more mundane earthly factors.
I think you can only try to give your children love and security (my dad”s favourite saying!) and a happy childhood, which overall I think we have managed – with mistakes as well! You can’t and perhaps shouldn’t try to protect them from every trial that will come their way, but there are things outside the home that you can do nothing about. School is one; church another, and perhaps we should have been more discerning regarding the latter, but at the time we had given up on attending ‘church’ (believe me I know what it is like not to want to darken the doors of a church) and were not very spiritually awake.
I am as certain as you can be in circumstances like this that we wouldn’t still have her if it had not been for answered prayer. Quite remarkable, and I am sure the leading of the Holy Spirit. That’s why I am so glad you prayed as well.
It would be nice to be the listening ear, but she is studying in a different country, so it is less than easy just to pop over if there is any crisis. The (moribund) English healthcare system has just declared it has no resources for her (it’s overloaded with an epidemic of messed up young people at the moment). Very helpful.
Still at least the long vacation is coming up! Hugs all round. Oh for the wisdom to know when to speak and when to keep quite, as she herself needs to stop sinning in her reaction to what has gone on. But she has long since been of age to make her own decisions, you can only pray they are wise and healthy ones.
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Where does the “root” of misogyny originate?
How does one differentiate “the false idea that God cursed Eve” from the fact that the story of Adam and Eve is in the Bible? Perhaps the story of Adam and Eve is the starting place? If the idea according to you and many Christians is that it’s not true that Eve was cursed by God, could it also not be true that the story of Adam and Eve is not true?
You claim it is a “false idea” Avid Reader, I understand that, however, many Christians believe that your belief that she isn’t cursed is a false idea. The diversity within Christianity separates Christians. Each claiming their truth comes from their sacred scriptures.
How does a sincere woman &/or man or child figure out what is truth? Countless Christians take the Bible literally. I was one of them. There was a literal Adam and a literal Eve. God made Adam first. He then made Eve second. For the literalist, the hierarchal system starts there. For the literalist, the patriarchy starts there . . . in the beginning.
From there you’ve got Eve messing up big time, God say’s what’s up and Adam points to Eve. You gave her to me, she did it. Might one say the hatred started right there in the beginning. Not only man against woman but perhaps man against man. After all, he messed up too, right? Hatred for her, hatred for himself. Where does misogyny have its roots? In the beginning? And who set the entire system up?
Aren’t these questions that those who are suffering in their churches are trying to answer?
Sincere women asking, what does God want me to do?
What does God say?
What does Paul say?
Most Christians aren’t Biblical scholars. They listen to their pastor’s, their leaders, many who also are not scholars. They trust they know what they are talking about. This pastor stands up and says, Paul says this, another pastor says, though Paul said this, he actually means that. Another pastor says the whole Adam and Eve things is true and the fact that Eve comes second proves patriarchy is the way. Still another smiles and says, Now dear, you just aren’t enlightened yet and one day you’ll understand. In the meantime, serve, pray, study, tithe.
I know where Carmen is coming from because I was there, right there in this system of belief. I believed what I was told. The Bible is literally true. For me, the question of Comp theology does have it’s beginning . . . in the beginning.
I don’t think your work here is a waste of time at all and I don’t think Carmen thinks so too (correct me if I’m wrong if you see this Carmen).
What appears to be a waste of time for some, is the effort in discussion about what is Biblical. What is true. What does God want me/us to do? Can I leave my husband who abuses me? Can I get up and walk out of this church and survive the consequences? If I change my mind about what I once believed, will I go to hell? People have different answers, opinions, arguments and proofs but still the abused is strangled in the back and forth tug-of-war. It comes across as a lot of noise and the voice of the abused can’t be heard. I know I’m preaching to the choir here. Never think for a moment though that because I no longer consider myself a Christian that I don’t support the work done here. I do.
Yes it does.
To summarize, from my vantage point now, if the story about Adam and Eve is not true or to be taken literally, than the idea of the curse is a moot point. A scary thought often not allowed to fester for too long inside the confines of a belief system that dots every ‘i’ and crosses every ‘t’.
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Lea, “Mark, I have been thinking the opposite – they used to just say something about a random tiebreaker occasionally. Obeying in all but sin is no life.”
The stuff my mom says my dad told her about how the family authority structure worked, I believe it’s been a constant struggle. Even in my former church, there are a spectrum of beliefs – one pastor I’ve heard of will only marry couples who have ‘obey’ in the wife’s vows. This book Avid Reader linked is talking about the situation in, perhaps, the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.
I think that what has changed is perhaps the structure of the church. Supposedly 50% of people attended church weekly about 70 years ago, now only about 20% do, so it is quite possible that the comp. doctrine has become more distilled because it only has to be acceptable to a smaller portion of the population (who are now being told that those who have left weren’t dedicated enough…)
In my former church, even though the overall size hasn’t changed, the makeup, I think has. There have been a number of “lost generations” – groups of people, like me, who got fed up with the teaching and left. However, the church has attracted like-minded comps., and especially as other formerly “conservative” denominations have become “liberal” – the comps. have fled and polarized the church. This is leading to a quasi-patriarchal showdown between mainly old-guard pastors who believe their job is to EQUIP for ministry, and mainly up-and-coming pastors who believe their job is MINISTRY (meaning that ordinary members get to sit on the bench while the professionals do all the work). What a difference a comma makes.
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I agree. Where does the “root” of misogyny originate?
How does one differentiate “the false idea that God cursed Eve” from the fact that the story of Adam and Eve is in the Bible? Perhaps the story of Adam and Eve is the starting place? If the idea according to you and many Christians is that it’s not true that Eve was cursed by God, could it also not be true that the story of Adam and Eve is not true?
You claim it is a “false idea” Avid Reader, I understand that, however, many Christians believe that your belief that she isn’t cursed is a false idea. The diversity within Christianity separates Christians. Each claiming their truth comes from their sacred scriptures.
How does a sincere woman &/or man or child figure out what is truth? Countless Christians take the Bible literally. I was one of them. There was a literal Adam and a literal Eve. God made Adam first. He then made Eve second. For the literalist, the hierarchal system starts there. For the literalist, the patriarchy starts there . . . in the beginning.
From there you’ve got Eve messing up big time, God say’s what’s up and Adam points to Eve. You gave her to me, she did it. Might one say the hatred started right there in the beginning? Not only man against woman but perhaps man against man. After all, he messed up too, right? Hatred for her, hatred for himself. Where does misogyny have its roots? In the beginning? And who set the entire system up?
Aren’t these questions that those who are suffering in their churches are trying to answer?
Sincere people asking, what does God want me to do?
What does God say?
What does Paul say?
Most Christians aren’t Biblical scholars. They listen to their pastor’s, their leaders, many who also are not scholars. They trust they know what they are talking about. This pastor stands up and says, Paul says this, another pastor says, though Paul said this, he actually means that. Another pastor says the whole Adam and Eve things is true and the fact that Eve comes second proves patriarchy is the way. Still another smiles and says, Now dear, you just aren’t enlightened yet and one day you’ll understand. In the meantime, serve, pray, study, tithe.
I know where Carmen is coming from because I was there, right there in this system of belief. I believed what I was told. The Bible is literally true.
I don’t think your work here is a waste of time at all and I don’t think Carmen thinks so too (correct me if I’m wrong if you see this Carmen).
What appears to be a waste of time for some, is the effort in discussion about what is Biblical. What is true. What does God want me/us to do? Can I leave my husband who abuses me? Can I get up and walk out of this church and survive the consequences? If I change my mind about what I once believed, will I go to hell?
People have different answers, opinions, arguments and proofs but still the abused is caught there in the fight/flight/paralyzed back and forth tug-of-war. It comes across as a lot of noise and the voice of the abused can’t be heard. I know I’m preaching to the choir here. Never think for a moment though that because I no longer consider myself a Christian that I don’t support the work done here. I do. This is urgent work and can by life-saving. It’s frustrating work though. One just wants to say, ‘Get out of that mess and get out now.’
Yes, it does.
To summarize, from my vantage point now, if the story about Adam and Eve is not true or to be taken literally, then the idea of the curse is a moot point. I understand why the starting point is the curse. I just question whether it is the starting point as I indicated earlier in my comment. A scary thought often not allowed to fester for too long inside the confines of a belief system that dots every ‘i’ and crosses every ‘t’.
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Christianity spread across the Roman Empire because it gave real hope to everyone. Now consider this – Jesus opposed the spiritual leaders of the day, not just on a few points here and there, but vehemently on many many issues. Many of those issues had to do with how they were self-serving to the expense of those who truly needed help. What seems to have happened since then is that the same sorts of spiritual leaders, the ones who Paul and Jesus vigorously opposed, found their way back into the church and twisted good for evil and evil for good.
Now, if that is the case, then we should expect that the Bible itself, in its original, was not corrupted – the same Jesus who treated women with dignity and respect also quoted scripture condemning the spiritual leaders, and the same Paul who opposed the Jewish spiritual leaders trying to infiltrate the church also quoted.
The problem, then is a problem of sometimes honest, sometimes dishonest misinterpretation and mistranslation of scripture, not a problem of a misogynistic god and his misogynistic prophets writing down hate.
That’s why I enjoy reading articles that explain different approaches to the “prooftexts” used to justify misogyny. Some are more clear and some are more of a stretch, but it is definitely very intriguing how much license interpreters have taken in applying their agenda to scripture rather than, perhaps, a more mechanical and literal translation that might be harder to understand. I have a few pet peeves in that regard that are outside the gender wars.
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Well, Zoe, you tried. 🙂
No surprise, Mark, that you defend the war-god Yahweh. Trouble is, the scriptures are full of misogyny – it’s blatant. One cannot ignore what is written and say, “Oh, but that’s not what was meant . Rather subjective, don’t you think? Zoe has highlighted some excellent points but they will fall on deaf ears to those who INSIST that Jesus was the first feminist. As I’ve said before on this thread, it is just not true. If Jesus existed as a real man (and not a myth), he would have been a man of his time — just like the other men of the Bible, to whom women were possessions and only served one purpose – to bear children and extend their paternal lineage. You – and many others – are doing what everyone does when reading scripture — interpreting it to fit your agenda. It’s wishful thinking, not objective reasoning. Even though I understand that, in order to keep the faith, you’ve got no choice. 😦
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Lea – I mentioned my daughter (reluctantly) not to make a point about egal versus comp as such, but that if abuse is to be countered then this particular dispute ought to be laid aside. I’m not into emotional blackmail in any way, I don’t need in my own thinking on egalitarian arguments. Some of them simply don’t make sense.
Of course if you define complementarian as abusive in itself, then this isn’t possible, but I find defining it thus as manipulative. It makes anyone who espouses this view as being in line with the NT writers as being an abuser. In fact it accuses the apostles themselves of enabling abuse, which is nonsense. This is what I mean by identity politics. If you are not egalitarian, then you are de facto an abuser or an enabler of it. Brilliant way of closing down discussion.
If I thought complementarianism was of itself abusive I would reject it. I do wonder just why egalitarians don’t seem able to see you can have complementarian views and not be abusive.
Avid Reader – I wouldn’t put too much weight on Bilezikian regarding Kephale. I read round this subject a while ago, and it does seem to attract unevidenced assertions on the part of egalitarians anxious to prove their version is right. I would read the other side of this as well, including Grudem’s work on this (accepting he is not neutral or perfect either).
Egalitarians do themselves no favours on this at all. An Anglican vicar I read on this subject who had had more time to read around than I have correctly imo stated egalitararian scholarship to be sloppy, if not bordering on fraudulent. I remember him referencing Bilezikian in this regard, but there are others as well.
This is a major reason for me not changing my mind on this issue, though if someone argued the egalitarian interpretation made more sense, I don’t think I am too old or stuck in my ways not to be willing to change. I might add this ought to be a ‘mutual’ attitude on the part of egalitarians.
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Ah, but see MANY DO say that, all the time actually. I can’t imagine why you aren’t hearing it.
The thing is? Generally speaking, the men who respect women and treat them well who claim to be in complementarian marriages are functionally egalitarian. They are not telling their wives what to do, and to obey, and so on and so forth. That is why I think a lot of people discuss mutuality. If you love your wife, you will not act in this abusive way. You will make decisions together as a team, because that is the only way of living that is respectful and works well. I do think Comp steers some men who would otherwise be respectful, and women who would otherwise speak up in important areas, to do dumb things and that is part of why it’s harmful.
I think a lot of comp men and women think there is this ‘tie breaker’ vote lurking in the background that will go to the guy and that is stupid, but in terms of everyday practice mostly not harmful. But I see them talk about how in 40 years they never had to use. Hmmm. Wonder why that is? Because it is a downright stupid way for couples to make a decision.
The chief problem with comp on the abuse front is that it doesn’t have a way to deal with situations where the husband is not respecting and loving his wife. It just sort of hopes for the best. None of the suggestions given from the comp front are going to help these marriages.
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@KAS
Do you have the courage and integrity to answer these questions?
Can a wife in comp tell her husband, “no”?
Can a wife in comp tell her husband “no” to sex?
Can a wife in comp divorce her husband for beating her?
“Of course if you define complementarian as abusive in itself, then this isn’t possible, but I find defining it thus as manipulative.”
Probably because you are the selfish M A N who wants a trapped woman under his thump who cannot tell you, NO!!!
“If you are not egalitarian, then you are de facto an abuser or an enabler of it.”
ISIS and the Taliban are not egalitarian and they are against egalitarian.
“I do wonder just why egalitarians don’t seem able to see you can have complementarian views and not be abusive”
If I am not able to tell a man “no” and if I am not queal with a man then I am a degraded, used, trapped, slave.
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@ Ana
“Well, here in Brazil is the same or worst than USA or any corner of this world.”
Hi! Much LOVE! From the deep south USA.
“afraid beatings, marital rape, afraid of the subservient role. I don’t want a boss, I want a partner. I want kids, not opressed miniatures of me, to perpetuate an horrible cycle. ”
This is how I have felt since I was a teenager. I wanted to be a stay at home mother and have 20 children, but I did not want to be a trapped slave, and never wanted to have sex again or live a life where I could not tell a man, NO!
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@ D
“Didn’t Mark Driscoll mix some kind of strange Reformed Theology and kink ideology that should’ve been left inside the bedroom between him and his wife?”
Yes. He said masturbation is homosexual activity if your wife is not in the room. He then promoted anal sex with wives.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/04/23/driscolls-sex-tips-and-the-tipping-point/
My heterosexual slutty male cousins say when a heterosexual man is wanting to have anal sex with women it means he has a small something.
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Carmen, “Trouble is, the scriptures are full of misogyny – it’s blatant. One cannot ignore what is written and say, “Oh, but that’s not what was meant .”
I’m reading the book Avid Reader sent me a link to – written by a woman active in the Women’s Suffrage movement. She makes a pretty clear case using the original Hebrew and Greek, along with historical references, that women had preeminence early on in scripture, and that the first few chapters of Genesis chronicle essentially the decline from a matriarchal family system to a patriarchal family system.
Also, she shows that the patriarchal system was furthered by Jewish Rabbis (through their ‘traditions’) who tried to merge the Biblical creation story with Hellenistic mythology (Pandora). That then entered and perverted the Christian church due to the influence of certain Judaizers whose translations redid the earlier Rabbinical perversion.
But, yes, the Bible is full of misogyny, because soon after the Fall, the perfect created order where men and women were treated equally was destroyed by men (like Lamech) who realized they could use their strength to overpower women and treat them like slaves to their sinful desires.
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Galatians 5: 19-25 “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us have no self conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.”
I think of these verses often in relation to the complementarian. I am married to one as well as sprinting out of an abusive Baptist church that believes and teaches this unbiblical garbage. I didn’t grow up in the church of comp. so I wasn’t able to identify the red flags until I began reading and understanding the Scriptures for meself as an adult, thus allowing the Holy Spirit to minister directly to me. Without a doubt in living with a comp. and being around comp. c’hurched folks……..the Scriptures that pertain to the works of the flesh are easily identifiable in complementarian individuals, and the fruits of the Holy Spirit are rather scarce in their lives.
Living by the Spirit and living by the flesh are two opposing lifestyles, and to date, I honestly haven’t met or befriended a comp. that clearly exhibit the fruits of the Spirit, which is a very sad day for the visible church. I also notice the fruits of the Spirit are not “genderized,” so this is hopeful for the believer.
And how many comps “have no self conceit, no provoking one another, and no envying one another.” I have observed these human characteristics as the “bread and butter” of complementarian heresy. And when I have told the comp. individual the word “No,” in love of course, there will always be hell to pay.
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There is a saying that if you want to know who a person really is, tell them no 😦
I’m not really one for tests, but one thing I appreciate about the person I’m dating now because they easily accept a no.
I love your points about the fruits of the spirit and the flesh – I think most comps fail on ‘selfishness’ alone (and often anger, and some of the others pretty consistently).
This list disproves a lot of terrible advice coming from driscollesque gospel dudebros. Patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self control – against such there is NO LAW. That variety of patriarchal types would have you believe these things are virtues in women, and sins in men. Not so. I think here is the root of much unhappiness in relationships…
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Lea,
So happy for you that you are dating a mature individual……difficult to find in this day and age. Enjoy your relationship and your life! 🙂
I have thought of these verses often while worshiping at the state park/wilderness. It is so incredibly easy to exhibit all of the fruits of the Spirit when alone and in the presence of our LORD in a peaceful environment. Worship is free and joyful….no worries. It is easy to identify with Jesus/our Shepherd when He traveled into the wilderness seeking solace in communing with His/our Father…..believers need this from time to time. No heavy burdens…..His yokes are light……freedom and liberty in Him is experienced…….and the only Mediator present is Jesus between us and our Father…..I so enjoy worshiping in His creation….no buildings with human hands needed.
Then comes the religious folks saying…..you need to fellowship in a building and do this, this, and that, and this and this in order to “be” a Christian…..a “cultural” Christian that is…….no more “green pastures,” “still waters,” or “paths of righteousness” for that matter…..but continual bickering, envy and jealousy, lots of anger, perpetual strife, idolatry in so many “religious areas,” impurity from hearts that castigate women constantly (ie.,so incredibly sick and tired of listening to bald, overweight, and selfish men criticize their wives and other women for being overweight….blah, blah, blah), and the fact that double standards exist in various areas of religious life……leadership verses lower laity…..men verses women……more spiritual folks verses those they perceive as the “lesser” spiritual.
No wonder John the Baptist was hated by those super religious folks…..and then Jesus! Don’t follow the religious norm….well then….. you are terminated!
And when I first heard one of Driscoll’s sermon via the internet……I about lost my cookies laughing so hard……wondering how in the world he could even begin to qualify as a pastor/shepherd. (Next thing ya know…he’ll be telling the public that “god told him that all of us need to buy him a shiny new jet!” And yet, women are supposed to submit to that? WOW! But the gullible sheep are always in search of a human shepherd as a replacement for the real One…..Jesus! My comp associates roll thy eyeballs and give me that oh, so cute little side smirk of theirs when I share, “JESUS is my pastor these days, for He will never lie to me nor forsake me….those are His promises to me.” It’s as if Jesus isn’t good enough to be a pastor/rabbi/shepherd/Master/Wonderful Counselor/Great Physician/Prince of Peace/Mediator…….such an incredible list….and there’s so much more in Him!
Probably won’t see too many of Jesus’ lesser sheep fashioned into “stained glass windows” for lofty religious institutions build with brick and mortar by human hands…..but at the end of the day, knowing Christ alone for that amazing free gift of salvation, and standing on that level ground at the foot of the Cross with my brothers and sisters in Christ…..is more than good enough for me.
Love what you bring to the plate Lea!
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KAS said
I have only left about a million posts on this above, or the last page of comment threads here, which you have apparently skipped over.
Even your “nice and gentle” type of complementarianism, KAS, is problematic, abusive, and sexist.
I’ve explained a bit above, last page, and on my blog why that is so.
Complementarianism does not have to produce black eyes or broken ribs in a woman to be abusive. Abuse comes in other forms.
I asked you above to go do a web search for topics such as Unconscious Bias and Benevolent Sexism, as those play roles in the nice, sweet, polite kind of Complementarianism you endorse.
Your nice sweet type of Complementarianism is no different from Codependency.
Codependency leaves people who have it wide open to being exploited and attracting abusers. (I’ve explained that a billion times over on this blog, and on my own blog.)
KAS, you have a real mental hang-up where you cannot get past this notion that merely because you personally do not personally smack your wife around or molest your daughter(s), there can be no way that complementarian views are harmful to girls and women – but they are.
_Why Gender Complementarianism Contributes to Sexism and Abuse of Women and is Ineffective at Halting It_
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Christianity Hurts said to KAS,
KAS will likely reply that yes, women can say no to sex, etc, because I think he may be a “soft” to “mid range” complementarian.
The more extremist complementarians would say no, a woman never has the right to say no to sex to her spouse.
KAS probably does not abuse women he knows personally, so he, like many “nice” or “soft” complementarians, has a difficult time understanding that complementarianism itself is abusive at its core and it mis-used by many abusive men.
Complementarianism at its base is about defending and rationalizing male hierarchy over women, and male control of women….
All of which in and of itself is sexist, abusive, and creates a situation ripe for a man to abuse a woman and to get away with it in church contexts.
KAS, just look at racism as an analogy here.
Surely you do not defend white control of black people?
White American Christians used to use the Bible to defend white people owning black people, in the 19th century.
Today, some American Christians (and other Christians around the world) who are complementarian are using the EXACT SAME interpretative method to defend male control of females as whites used to justify slavery of blacks, and racism against black people.
Whether that male control of female is done “politely” and “kindly,” or in a violent, cruel way, does not change the fact is it still authoritarian, sexist, and that sort of thing is condemned in the Bible.
Gentle, warm, and sweet authoritarianism is still wrong.
Gentle, warm, and nice sexism is still wrong.
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Mark quoting Carmen,
I have to disagree with Carmen a bit here.
Some portions of the Bible are descriptive, not prescriptive.
Meaning, if you read an account in the Old Testament of a guy raping a lady, for instance, the Bible is merely recounting that story, it’s not intended to be an endorsement of said behavior.
The Bible recounts the crucifixion of Christ, but that does not mean that the Bible thinks crucifying people is great and everyone should be crucifying people.
Secondly, the usual atheist point on this – to say the Bible is sexist, sexist, sexist, demonstrates that the atheist who does this is interpreting the Bible the same exact (erroneous) way that complementarians are!
Complementarians like to ignore cultural context, historical backdrop, the culturea, original audience, timing, and they think time-bound directives are meant to be TIMELESS and for all believers today, which is incorrect. That’s the same way a lot of atheists read the Bible as well.
There are conservative- to- liberal Christians out there with equally valid methods of interpreting the Bible that leads to an egalitarian view of the biological sexes.
Comps are choosing to interpret the Bible in the most sexist way possible.
They tend to ignore, twist, or ignore all the examples in the Old and New Testaments that clash with their complementarian views, too.
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Oh wow, some types and stuff in my post above.
I said,
“They tend to ignore, twist, or ignore all the examples in the Old and New Testaments that clash with their complementarian views, too.”
I meant that complementarians dismiss or downplay the portions of the Bible that don’t fit their complementarian views.
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And that should be “typeos” not “types.”
I’d give anything for an edit button on these posts.
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Christianty hurts: I looked at your three questions and was about to reply when it occurred to me that I have already in effect answered all three of them multiple times. Would there be much point in saying it all again, I don’t seem to be being heard despite the repetition.
I then noticed you assume you already know what I am like by your comment about me being ‘selfish and wanting a trapped woman’, in line with your constant accusations of control-freakery (to put it politely) for which I can see no justification and which are unfounded and of which I have grown tired.
To cap it all, in the same post you ask your three questions you even quote me giving you an answer.
On another thread that got side-tracked a bit into the subject to atheism and morals, in which Serving Kids found it necessary to weigh in on your behalf, I actually treated you as an equal. You missed that though, didn’t you.
I would have thought on an anonymous forum of commenters it is best – and right – to give others the benefit of the doubt over their beliefs and behaviour unless and until they say something to indicate the contrary.
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@ KAS
“of which I have grown tired.”
Is it possible that other people have grown tired of your arrogance, heartlessness, dismissiveness of others pain and feelings, and un-Christlike conceit?
“I then noticed you assume you already know what I am like by your comment”
I assume I already know what you are like by the way you selfishly and heartlessly ignore the fact that women have told you your words and ideology has very much hurt them and ruined their lives. You keep promoting it and act like you could not care less. You are smug and dismissive of women’s and sexually abused little girl’s pain.
You were told a little girl was subject to childhood sexual abuse and your evil misogynistic ideology made the sexual abuse more traumatizing.
You were told a very young woman was abused and trapped because of your ideology.
And you have never cared. You just ignore it and keep promoting it.
Complementarian made me hate my self as a child.
It made me scared.
It made me want to die instead of getting married.
It made me wish I had never been born.
It made me feel like a sex slave and pimped by God.
It gave sexually abusive men power over me and my mother and took power we should have had.
Complementarian is misogynistic slavery. The man who sexually abused me and my father would both deny this. Both of these men thought they were glorious godly men.
“I can see no justification and which are unfounded” It is obvious that you think you are a perfect human being and will not be bothered with wondering if you hurt people. You are nothing like Jesus Christ, nothing!
“I would have thought on an anonymous forum of commenters it is best – and right – to give others the benefit of the doubt over their beliefs and behaviour unless and until they say something to indicate the contrary.”
You have indicated that you are a selfish heartless human being.
I would not give ISIS, the Taliban, or Ku Klux Klan the benefit of the doubt over their beliefs. As someone who was born and raised in complementarian I know much more about it and know it does not deserve the benefit of the doubt just like ISIS, the Taliban, and Ku Klux Klan do not.
A complementarian trying to pretend he isn’t bad is like ISIS and the Taliban trying to say they are not bad. All three believe in manpower over women and little girls.
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Thanks Katy! I very much enjoy reading your perspective as well. Best 🙂
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KAS,
First of all, I want to apologize for not reaching out to you earlier, to express my sympathies for your daughter’s suffering, and for everything your family is going through. I meant to, but I got sidetracked by commenting to others (both here and elsewhere), and I wasn’t sure whether you’d have a chance to continue reading here. Work and hobbies have gotten in the way as well.
I have no children of my own, and there’s no way for me to imagine the heartache that’s in your life right now. For whatever it’s worth, I’ve prayed for you and your daughter, and I very much hope that she can find the healing she needs.
That being said…
I realize that Christianity Hurts has said some shocking things to you, and about you. I even disagree with her on a few points. For example, when she says that you’re “smug and dismissive of women’s and sexually abused little girl’s pain”, I think she’s mistaken. After all, that seems to be what your own daughter has gone through, and I can tell that you’re broken up over it.
At the same time, I can understand why CH would react that way. I recall a few of your statements in which you appear to be dismissive of her pain, and that of her mother. Enumerating and explaining those will have to wait for another day — I have an early start tomorrow morning. But, as I’ve said before, I think I know why she sees echoes of her own vile father in your words.
In the meantime, I would ask you to do the gentlemanly thing, and answer the questions that Christianity Hurts has posed to you. She has asked them several times, after all. If her assumptions about you are wrong, then you I hope you’ll take the time to prove them wrong.
(As to your question — namely, how your definition of gender comp can possibly promote or lead to abuse — that has most certainly not been “met with deafening silence”. Daisy and others here have offered many answers, and I responded to that question myself a few weeks ago. Digging up that comment to you might take some time, but if you missed it, I will try to find it later.)
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KAS, you should read the book Avid Reader sent a link to, as well. It demonstrates, beyond a reasonable doubt, that specific passages have been ignorantly or “willfully mistranslated” to give the appearance that the Bible commands patriarchy.
One small example. A Hebrew word that is translated “powerful” “valiant” “strong” or “masculine” when used to describe men, is translated “virtuous” when used to describe women. e.g. Prov. 31 – “A virtuous woman”. A Hebrew word that is translated “pure” or “self-controlled” when being used to describe a man is translated “chaste” when used to describe a woman.
The author wrote the book in 1923 and is completely committed to Biblical inerrancy, yet strongly substantiates a claim that male-only translation committees have produced (to utter shock!) male-centric Bible translations. And, not only that, she traces how the misogynistic Rabbinical tradition (i.e. the one Jesus blasted the Pharisees over and over again for because it nullified the true law) crept in to our modern English translations, where it was absent from translations in other languages.
Some of the arguments are well-substantiated, like the ones above, where you can view the word in an interlinear Bible or using Strongs to see that the sense of the word becomes different when applied to a female or male.
One modern egregious case of this precise thing is the ESV translation of Genesis 3:16, which is based on the CBMW presumption that Eve’s natural desire is to usurp her husband’s authority (perhaps that is why we see so many woman-ruled societies in our world, oh wait, there are none), which of course is the same phrase (desire for) used allegorically for Jesus’s desire for his bride in Song of Solomon. So, here the translators are forcing their presupposition of what the Bible says into the Bible, even though the sense of the word they force would declare Jesus to be an abusive husband (ala Eve in Gen 3:16 and Satan in Gen 4:7)
The one I just read struck a chord. Her claim is that “women and children shall rule over them” is a poor translation, and instead, the correct words would be “tax-collectors and extortioners”. Now, which seems more in line prophetically with what happened to the Jewish nation? When did women and children rule over them, vs. when did tax-collectors rule over them?
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KAS, I was like you. I read my Bible and I heard sermons and it seemed abundantly clear that women were “equal” in some esoteric sense, but spiritually and temporally subordinate to men.
God worked on a number of different levels to show me that this simply wasn’t the case. First of all, I saw that men were making all sorts of outrageous claims about what positions women could or could not have – no women presidents, no women bosses, no women with college diplomas, no women church committee chairs, no women in any church role that was outside the home. These were all based on supposed “exegetical” analysis of scripture passages, like “keeping house she finds reward”. Second of all, I saw women who claimed to have spiritual gifts that men claimed were reserved only for them. I saw the fruits of these women and the fruits of these men… the Bible says, “by their fruits you shall know them”, and I’ll just say the women’s claims measured up far better than the men’s claims. Third, I began to see how practically, the authoritarian/patriarchal bent was being used to justify abusing all sorts of people. My abuse by my parents was justified by the church, then my abuse by a boss who happened to go to the church was justified by the church, then my abuse by the church itself was justified. At each instance, there was positive reinforcement of the “your superior has the right to …” and negative reinforcement “if your superior did … then you must have done something wrong” – and loads of exegetical sermon crap like “if you obey God and your superior, things will go well for you… just look at Joseph!” I honestly think that you have to be borderline schizophrenic to be a pastor in my former denomination because they can draw any conclusion from any passage and say it’s applicable to your life, even if the conclusions are contradictory. For example, “you’ll suffer persecution for being a Christian, but if you’re unhappy at your job it’s because you’re a disobedient horrible sinner who doesn’t have faith.”
I’m going to say, you’re trying your best to be a godly man, husband and father, but here’s the problem. You’re trusting ungodly men to tell you how to be godly. That was my problem. I listened to and trusted the same men who abused me to tell me what God wanted for me. The words they speak and their actions come out of the same heart. If the actions are black, then the words they speak must be black, too. Even if they’re not completely ungodly, they’re deluded by the same mis-translated scriptures that have kept me from growing.
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“All of which in and of itself is sexist, abusive, and creates a situation ripe for a man to abuse a woman and to get away with it in church contexts.”
In my experience sexism isn’t half as bad as misogyny. I am close to my many male cousins and we do gender roles. It is just assumed I will always change the diapers, wash the dishes, and spend 12 hours a day for a week making Christmas cookies. And they will change the flat tire, kill the snakes, and bing in the firewood.
But, we treat each other as equals and with love and respect.
We can say “no” to each other. They know if they disrespect me I will tell them off and do not have to kiss their @sses or make them feel better about their manhoods.
They like for their wives and girlfriends to have jobs, go to college, and have friends.
They hunt, fish, shoot guns, watch football, get in Saturday night fights and they do not need it fixed for them that their wives and girlfriends have to be submissive to them. Their wives, girlfriends, and all women can say “no” to them anytime they want and my sexist male cousins do not have a meltdown over it. They are adored by women and women in my small southern town fight over them.
They know and can expect to get their heads knocked off or shot if they beat women and rape kids. They believe wife beaters and child rapist should be killed or go to prison. Both wife beating and child rape make them furious, ashamed, and sick.
My sexist cousins who do gender roles are equal with their wives and girlfriends. And unlike when we were kids their children are elevated above them and their wives. They listen to, look at, talk WITH, and spend time with their kids.
When we were growing up in misogyny/comp we were treated like subjects, minions, like second class nobodies. Their children can be mad when they want to be mad, cry when they want to cry, but most the time they are are smiling true smiles not the fake ones we had to have. Their thoughts, feelings, and needs very much matter to their fathers. This was NEVER the way in comp/misogyny. Only father’s and husband’s feelings, needs, wants, hurts, and anger mattered
In misogyny/comp women can never tell men no. We are expected to kiss all male @ss before he beats and rapes us, while he beats and rapes us, and after he beats and rapes us. Because women were created for men and men matter more than women. In misogyny/comp children and women who are being beaten and raped have to take the blame for it and get over it. With my sexist cousins, they put the blame 100 percent on the child rapist and wife beaters. They hate them, were as comp/misogyny coddles and protects them.
This is just my experience and I don’t know what it is like to be a tomboy. I was always a girly girl. It just feels like misogyny is so much more hurtful than sexism.
Much Love.
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This is an interest distinction you are drawing! I’m not sure that I agree that a natural tendency to do stereotypical ‘girly’ or ‘guyly’ things is necessarily sexist. It can possibly be, but not necessarily. My dad is not great about jumping up and doing dishes or what have you, but he is great about the most important things.
I do think you’ve drawn out the important thing, too, which is to be treated with love and respect. If you are FORCED to be a girly girl, when you don’t like any of those things, you might resent it. I like making Christmas cookies and don’t particularly want to change a tire. Part of the freedom of not having to conform to ‘roles’ which is really playing a game, is being able to embrace the things you truly enjoy – all of them – regardless of where they ‘fit’. You can be a woman who likes dresses, baking and mountain biking and beer. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. The problem is when some outside force is policing your hobbies and education and job prospects based on what suits them and not you. And men shouldn’t be forced into these dumb gender roles that don’t fit them either. Go change your tires, and then come home a bake a pie. It’s damaging to try to force people to be someone else, because ‘roles’.
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KAS said
I’ve answered some of your same points and arguments over and over (back on the previous page of this thread and up above), but you’re either not reading my posts or choosing not to engage.
People here have given you answers, links, and rationales for their views and offered critiques of your position, but you don’t seem to want to listen.
This is one reason of a few why I spent a few months choosing to scroll past your posts without reading them and/or not replying.
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(part 1) Christianity Hurts said,
There’s a danger in presenting a view that complementarianism is only bad and wrong when it manifests itself as physical or sexual abuse or violence.
Complementarianism has different forms and can result in different painful or negative outcomes for girls and women.
I was taught under the “Nice and Gentle” type of complementarianism, the kind that KAS believes in, that my needs and feelings do not matter, and that it would not be godly, nice, or loving for me to have boundaries and say “no” to people.
I was discouraged from saying “no” to people, because complementarianism teaches saying “no” is an un-feminine, selfish thing for females to do. It’s part of the complemetnarian gender role teaching for girls that only boys can be assertive and say “no.”
This produced low self esteem in me, and I kept attracting people to me who abused me verbally, emotionally, relationally, and financially.
It left me wide open to being sexually molested by people – I was not molested but came close a time or two.
example:
When I was a teen girl, my Mom took me to see a male doctor for strep throat.
I had to take my t-shirt off, sit on the doctor table in a bra and jeans un-zipped to be examined by the doc. Have no idea why the doc wanted me half naked to examine my sore throat, but I got half-nude.
My Mom sat in the room as the perverted male doctor ran his hand down my torso and he almost put his hand under my underwear to touch my gentialia, and he looked at me with a smug look on my face, the doctor was intentionally trying to grope me and gauge my reaction, creating discomfort in me, which he wanted to do.
And I reiterate, this pervert did this with my Mom sitting three feet from him.
My Mom was a codependent jelly-fish partly because of Comp. She was a coward, afraid to stand up on behalf of me to this male doctor who was trying to molest me in his office as she sat there watching, Christianity Hurts.
That is what the nice, sweet complementarianism does, in which comp gender roles plays a part.
Turns women into spineless jellyfish who are conditioned to sit still and tolerate sexual abuse, verbal abuse, financial abuse and general, garden variety disrespect of themselves or of their daughters.
-Continued in Part 2-
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Had some typeos in the post above, sorry:
Said, “and he looked at me with a smug look on my face”
Should be, “looked at me with a smug look on HIS face”
(part 2)
Christianity Hurts said,
I generally use the words “sexism” and “misogyny” interchangeably, just to clarify things.
The nice, sweet type of “Kas” complementarianism contributed to my anxiety (made me afraid of people) and made my depression and suicidal ideation worse.
Even though I was not beaten or raped under complementarianism by complementarian men, it has still made my life difficult in other ways that I very much resent and regret to this day.
I go into all this on my blog, and it seems like almost every time I visit this one, I have to re-hash the same long points repeatedly.
You’re never going to get a guy like KAS to understand complementarianism is bad and evil by pointing to extreme situations, such as Baptist men who believe in male headship (complementarianism), who also fondle and rape their own daughters.
KAS does not, I presume, beat or rape his own daughters, so he likely sits there and thinks when he sees your posts,
As a matter of fact, that is the very (naive) point KAS been making up and down this thread for two weeks now, which is:
If only Christian men did complementarianism correctly, and just “servant led” girls even nicer and more gentle than they already do, then, by doggies, there would be no sexism, misogyny, or whatever you wish to call it, in churches.
I’m trying to tell him that…
Complementarianism is misogynistic and sexist at its root, because it is built on an un-godly assumption that it’s moral for all men to have control and absolute authority over all women in the first place.
Even if that male control does not result in rape, it results in other bad stuff, and it’s still wrong.
The same complementarian biblical interpretation and world view that causes men to rape girls is….
The SAME EXACT complementarian biblical interpretation and world view that causes men like KAS to think it’s godly, acceptable and biblical to limit women from being pastors or to think it’s biblical and fine for a husband to hold the “final say so” in marital disputes.
It’s the same mind-set and interpretation method that causes the non-raping, “nice” Christian men who practice “servent leadership” to tell raped Christian university students, “Let us just cover up your rape, and never report it to the police.”
It’s the same exact nice, sweet KAS complementarianism that does stuff like tell abused wives, “Just go home and submit to your spouse some more, but never leave him, because divorce is a sin.”
KAS reads the Bible the SAME way the abusive men do, he’s just not abusing.
KAS is holding the same sexist assumptions about girls and women as the complementarian rapists are and the same biblical hermeneutic, he’s just not abusing or raping women himself.
Complementarianism is also built on sexist gender stereotypes about men and women.
That is what KAS needs to see. I don’t think KAS is ever going to see how damaging complementarianism is if it’s being associated only with physical abuse and rape. He’s not going to see the connection.
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(part 3)
Christianity Hurts said,
Complementarians use gender roles as one tool to condition getting girls and women to be doormats.
They tell you it’s God’s design and expectation for you, a female, to be sweet, girly girl, passive, don’t have boundaries, etc.
If you are a tom boy in complementarian Christian culture (as I was), you are made to feel shamed for it, as though you are failing God, or as though you are a freak or weirdo.
The God of Christian complementarians designed all females to love pink, wear dressed, play with dolls, and host pretend tea parties, and do other stereotypical feminine things.
If you are a tom boy like me, and grew up hating pink, dolls, and tea parties, but you preferred to watch “Bat Man” on television and play with action figures and war toys, you were made to feel as though you were shameful, wrong, and “doing girl-hood wrong,” which can mess you up on several levels, and it damages your self esteem.
Part of that was also being socialized to never say “no” and to allow men and boys to be mean and unkind to me. It’s all wrapped up together.
Also, most churches that teach Complementarianism associate being a woman with “girly girl” behavior.
Therefore, I try to avoid most of their church Bible studies for women, because I do not feel as though I fit in or belong.
As a tom boyish type of woman, I have no desire to attend womanly Sunday school courses and pot luck suppers, where I’m expected to sit there in a girly, girl pink dress and talk about babies, recipes, etc.
I’ve talked to men on-line who are quiet, unassuming, and gentle – they are not “manly men.” And they’ve told me they don’t feel as though they fit in or belong at comp churches.
Such men have no desire to attend churches that pressure them to “be a man” by watching sports, or going on hunting trips. So these men avoid churches that push “biblical manhood”.
This expectation that ALL women (or ALL men) are ‘this way’ or ‘that’ ends up pushing men and women away from complementarian churches, and I don’t think these comp churches have noticed yet, or maybe they don’t care.
Complementarianism creates all sorts of problems for men and women are indoctrinated into it, and some of those problems result not only in possible physical and sexual abuse, but also in psychological problems (which can include low self esteem, increased anxiety levels), feelings of shame, lack of community, etc.
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Well, as I said, the nice male servant-leaders assumed there would be nice male servant-leaders to marry their well-trained comp. daughters who were taught nothing but how to manage the house and raise children.
Unfortunately, when they couldn’t provide for themselves and all the sinks were shiny enough, but they still cost money to feed, clothe and transport, the parents had a crisis on their hands (interesting that it was the $$$ that made the parents change their tune, huh?). All of the sudden it was important for church daughters to have marketable skills and be able to pull their own weight financially should they not find a husband. And, of course, somehow the inerrant exegetical preaching that initially said they shouldn’t get a college degree now said otherwise.
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ATTN KAS
Complementarianism is not a cure or solution for abuse, sexism, or misogyny in the church, but is a breeding ground for creating or enabling it.
The “church too” phenomenon, where Christian women have stepped forward to talk about being spiritually, sexually, or physically abused on Twitter (mainly under complementarian teachings, churches, and pastors), has happened after four decades of complementarianism in American churches.
Complementarianism did not stop sexism or abuse among Christians in the last four decades in the United States, why would any complementarian think it would help stop it now?
How does “doubling down” on complementarianism, as KAS suggested, stop sexism in churches when complementarianism has not fixed it in the last four decades here…
…but it has actually played a role in things like covering up rapes of women students on Christian university campuses by male Christian students (google the name “Paige Patterson” for more on that)?
How does more of the same failed rhetoric, done ten times more intensely, help anything, KAS?
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I honestly don’t know how to separate complementarianism from authoritarianism. My dad worked for a Christian organization that was built to exemplify servant leadership – it’s in their mission statement. Yet, servant leadership meant that he was literally defrauded of wages he was due – because their policy was only to pay employees who complained, and he never did. Servant leadership meant that the organizational leaders never listened to their inferiors, even when those inferiors challenged them in areas where they were recognized experts. It meant taking young, energetic employees, selling them on how wonderful the organization was, and then grinding them until every last spark of creativity, ingenuity was gone. It meant accusing the employees before the board and getting them to applaud while benefits were slowly stripped away.
And, not surprisingly, each subsequent president of the organization no matter how successful elsewhere got sucked into the same superiority complex as the one before.
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Serving Kids in Japan – thank you very much for you kind response. Prayer is always welcome – in fact it is the only resource if I can put it like that that we have left. The psychiatric side don’t seem to have any answers apart from medication, something I am not very happy about. It ought to be monitored, but this can’t happen if you are put on a waiting list that lasts months if not over a year. Such resources as there are are completely being overwhelmed, coupled with a government that is reluctant to spend any more money.
I’m also grateful for you comments re: CH. I’ve sometimes avoided saying much not wanting to make a bad situation worse. This of course runs the risk of her thinking I am ignoring her in an unfriendly way. I am aware that it can be the ‘hurt’ talking in her responses, but I would be less than honest if I didn’t admit this is wearing a bit thin. I’ve known people who have suffered in similar ways who did not seem to need to lash out at every opportunity.
I’ll try and answer her questions, but she and you will have to wait a little while due to time constraints. Might also explain my deafening silence comment as well.
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Daisy – I do sometimes look at links, and have read around in my time those espousing an egalitarian viewpoint. But just reading a link doesn’t settle the issue by itself, it depends on the soundness of the reasoning, and whether it has been affected by the existing views of the writer (applies to all sides on this).
The classic example of this would be the MSS evidence for the silent women verses of Cor 14. This should be decided by the MSS alone, and not by a theological viewpoint or because it contains sentiments that modern ears do not wish to hear.
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The book has a pretty good response for 1 Cor 14. First of all, what law says that women are to be silent and to be submissive? Is it the law of God or the traditions of the elders. Second of all, if women are to be silent in public worship, then why would Paul devote precious space to what women should wear precisely when they are praying and prophesying in public worship?
So, if this doesn’t make sense, one possibility, since Paul is clearly responding to a letter (and I have heard this in inerrant Calvinistic exegetical complementarian preaching) is that Paul is sometimes quoting the letter presumably written to him asking him these questions.
So, it is quite possible that 14:34-35 are not Paul’s words, but a statement that Paul is quoting from the letter specifically to respond to the church trying to silence women. Especially give the context “For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.” Does Paul really mean all here in terms of the recipients of the letter? “And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.” Doesn’t the NT explicitly say that not only would women be prophets, but indeed specifically calls out prophets who are women?
For example, bible.org says: “It is evident from the way Paul introduces the next few sections of the letter that he is responding to questions that the Corinthians had asked him in a letter they had sent him previously.”
Lest you think they are arguing egalitarian theology: “Role of Women 1 Cor 11 … Perhaps this topic is necessary because some women were overstepping their freedom. Because of their new ontological equality in Christ (Gal 3:8) some women were forgetting their functionally subjective role to men.”
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Hi Zoe,
That’s a lot of questions to ponder. Let’s think through this together.
We both want the exact same thing—the empowerment of women. For women to be able to make their own decisions as adults.
Now I like to read a lot of history and biographies. One thing that’s fascinating to study is how the human spirit learns to develop its decision making ability under very difficult circumstances. Recently I was reading a book about a guy that escaped from North Korea. His whole family had been thrown into one of the dreaded prison camps. He was literally born into the camp. Growing up as a child in one of the most oppressive environments in the world today was very traumatizing for him.
Both of his parents lived in the camp. However he only got to see his father on the few holidays that they were allowed to have. The rest of the time he lived with his mother. Everyone in the camp worked seven long days a week with no day off.
The hunger was constant. There was very little to eat—usually rice and maybe some cabbage. Survival required eating all kinds of horrible things. Their main protein source was literally the rats in the camp.
There was a school in the prison camp but nothing was being taught there. Literally nothing about science, reading, or even basic geography. He grew up knowing nothing about the outside world. The only thing he was taught was the rules of the camp and lots of propaganda. Abuse was constant. It was a normal everyday thing for him to watch the guards brutally beating people. Public executions were regular in the camp. The intensity of abuse he experienced was just heart wrenching to read.
I won’t go into more details because this is a family friendly blog. But to give you an idea—the part of the book that really stood out to me the most was what he saw in that “school.” One of his earliest childhood memories was watching the schoolteacher brutally beat a little girl to death just because she had stolen some rice.
Growing up in this environment, he knew nothing different. Until one day when someone new in the camp began to tell him what life was like in the outside world. It was a surprise to him to find out that somewhere else in the world—people could actually eat three full meals a day. By this time he had become an adult. He was assigned to watch this new person and report back everything that was said to the authorities. But the more that he heard about the outside world—the more that he wanted to leave.
Well, I won’t give away the rest of the book. It’s a really brutal and sad story so I’m not necessarily recommending it. But it was inspiring to read about the resilience of the human spirit. Long story short, he escaped and found a whole new life. One of the best moments in the book was when he discovered how wonderful a real hamburger is.
As the book progressed, it was interesting to watch him learn how to develop his personal agency. He really didn’t have the ability to make his own choices in the camp. So it was a huge turning point for him when he made that choice to break the rules by not reporting what the new guy was telling him about the outside world.
Another part that really stood out to me was how he described that he didn’t experience heavy PTSD until he finally had enough to eat. When they were starving, he hadn’t had enough energy to process the trauma. But once he was in the outside world with food in his stomach and a place to live, then the nightmares started. It sounded like the body really suppresses traumatic memories in order to survive but then later what he had seen caught up to him as his subconscious mind began to slowly process all that trauma.
Reading that book really made me grateful for all the things that we take for granted. Yes, there are problems in our nation—but there’s also really good things we often take for granted.
There’s a huge difference between America where even the dumpsters are full of really good food and North Korea where they are desperate for a handful of rice. That book really makes you feel for people trapped under that oppressive environment.
Now what if someone said—look at all the problems in America. The answer is to all of America’s problems is just get rid of the Constitution and go back to having a monarchy and being ruled by England.
Nope. There’s value in the Constitution. There’s value in the Bill of Rights. We enjoy a different lifestyle because of the value provided by living under this form of government. The value exists even when some people don’t see it.
Now going back to our discussion. By now you know that the women of faith at this blog here are pretty strong. We know how to stand up for ourselves. We know how to think through things and not allow other people take our agency from us.
Yet still sometimes people will say to us that being people of faith automatically means that we haven’t done our research or really thought through the hard questions.
Then sometimes people will say to us that the answer to all our problems is to abandon our faith.
Nope. That’s the fallacy of false dilemma.
Fallacy of false dilemma—pretending that we only have these two options:
Option #1: Abandon our faith and that will automatically solve all our problems
Option #2: Keeping our faith must automatically cause us to stay in our problems
Actually we have option #3: Keep our faith and learn how to set healthy boundaries
Empowering women doesn’t require tossing Jesus out the window. Our faith gives value to our lives. Our faith means something to us. That’s why its rather disturbing when people talk down to us as though being people of faith automatically means we are misguided children who haven’t really thought through the tough questions. That if we would just grow up a little—we would supposedly grow out of our faith in Christ.
Nope. Not even close. We’ve done our research. We’ve thought through all these tough questions of life. And we’re still thinking through them. But empowering women also requires that we make our own choices. That means that other people don’t get to decide our spiritual preferences for us.
There’s value in the idea of treating other people the way you want to be treated. There’s value in the idea, “Thou shalt not kill.” There’s value in a court system where witnesses are expected to tell the truth instead of bearing false witness.
The truth is that there are a lot of women out there who want to have both their faith and empowerment. They can have both. That’s why we spend so much time discussing spiritual things. There’s value in that discussion even when some people don’t see the value.
This discussion really isn’t about whether Adam and Eve should be taken literally or figuratively. The real issue here is that some people want us to give up our faith because they disapprove of it. Well, empowering women means learning how to not seek approval from people in the first place.
We can believe in Christ and still be powerful women. We can be people of faith without accepting all the things that stop women from developing their talents. That’s all I’m saying.
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@ KAS
“I’ve known people who have suffered in similar ways who did not seem to need to lash out at every opportunity.”
Maybe you don’t!
My first memory of my sexual abuse started when I was 2 or three. I do not know if it was happening before that age. From toddler age to ten I was repeatedly sexually abused by a man that hated me for being born female, and trash talked me and all females. Informed me he was better than me because he was male; says the bible. He told me when I was nine that I was just a cnt. Oh, how the wife submission bible verses were his favorite and if rebellious feminist would just read the bible they would understand they are just cnts. You have no idea the things I was subject to from a bible quoting, child raping, misogynistic-pedo.
“Lash out?”
Way to inform me that you, a comp man, has decided that the sexual abuse victim and survivor of extreme Christian misogyny is not responding to sexual abuse, misogyny, and the same ideology that made her childhood sick toxic hell the way you Mr. comp thinks she should. The victims of abuse you know have your approval because they don’t say things you don’t like. Meanwhile, you can say things I don’t like.
Misogynist and rapist are always criticizing victims for being angry and hurt. Mocking our reactions to abuse, subjugation, and misogyny.
In comp I was to be amiable, sweet, meek, submissive, and smile. Meanwhile, 4 comp men could trash talk me as a little girl, my mother, and all women and little girls everywhere. They did not think they were being cruel. In their spoiled minds, they were just being normal important intitled Christian men. What God made them to be. I just needed to get over my c*nt self and kiss male @ss more, the way God said I should. How dare females bring up their feelings the way Christian men can.
Comp men, misogynist, and rapist have decided they can say hurtful, hateful, demeaning things to women and little girls about women and little girls. But, women and little girls can’t say things they don’t want to hear. Like you have hurt us, you are hurting us, and what you want from us is scary, hurtful, demeaning, and life ruining.
“but I would be less than honest if I didn’t admit this is wearing a bit thin. ”
KAS, maybe you should wonder if you coming to a website that is for victims of spiritual abuse and promoting spiritual abuse does not wear thin to people who are trying to get some brain bleach from the demeaning hurtful ideas you want. Yes, it makes you feel good because you are a man, but it is demeaning and hurtful to many women and little girls.
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@ Daisy
“The God of Christian complementarians designed all females to love pink, wear dressed, play with dolls, and host pretend tea parties, and do other stereotypical feminine things.”
Well, I do love pink, it is my favorite color. And I love Valentino couture dresses, not that I have any. Love Paris, Italia, and British Vogue. Love cooking, cleaning and making the many children in my family feel loved, valued, safe, and elevated.
I wanted to be a stay at home mother of twenty children. It was not manipulation or brainwashing that made me like these things or want to do these things; it is sincere.
But, I do not want to live like a trapped child slave. And I believe that is what comp men really want. A wife that is in a childlike state. I can be super feminine, nurturing, and a caregiver while having the power, mind, education, and resources as a grown adult. Comps find this unattractive and scary.
My creepy embarrassing father wanted my mother in a constant state of a quivering seven-year-old little girl. He simply could not stand for his wife to be or have what adults should be or have. If a woman had what adults should have she was an unsubmissive butch feminist.
All the things that demean and hurt women and little girls all over the world comp men want to arrange for themselves. There is a big pedo undertone to their promotion.
Anyway, I am a girly girl who wanted to have all the kids she could and be a stay at home mother and I have rejected comp. It is not just tomboys rejecting it. It is actually women who do not want to play the child sex slave part that makes comp men feel more powerful, confident, and safe.
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@ Lea
” I like making Christmas cookies”
In my experience with cookie baking is take them out before they are all the way done and let them finish cooking while they cool. I have cooked cookies in gas ovens and electric. The oven on 350 and cook the cookies for no more than eight minutes. I have dozens of request for cookies every Christmas. I can’t take the credit for these secrets to good cookies. It was the way my great-grandmother cooked them, probably to get as many done as possible. She had a super large family to bake cookies for.
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Oh I know what you mean about talking down to people. Happens to me all the time when I’m discussing spiritual abuse with Christians.
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Amen Zoe and another AMEN to Christianity Hurts.
CH said, “My creepy embarrassing father wanted my mother in a constant state of quivering like a seven-year-old little girl. He simply could not stand for his wife to be or have what adults should be or have. If a woman had what adults should have she was an unsubmissive butch feminist.”
Precisely Christianity Hurts…..your statement states one of the “pillars” of comp theology. And for the life of me, I cannot understand why the term “complementarian” is used to describe this sinister belief system……I label it “evil and wicked” per “Jesus speak.” There is nothing “complementary” about it…..only abusive.
The comp men in my former abusive baptist c’hurch believe that women ‘cannot rightly divide the Word of God, so they need their “mediatorship” to explain the truths of the Scriptures…..my spouse believes this as well……that women are not equipped to understand the Holy texts for themselves….they need a “m’an” to interpret them correctly, thus making women co-dependent on men for all “truth.” Again, that “child-like” state that you speak of, Christianity Hurts, used as satanical fodder to indoctrinate women into believing they are subordinate to men, especially the more “spiritual” men.
I have been around enough comp men to know they believe the Holy Spirit only resides in men, and more so, in men holding “leadership” positions in these apostate c’hurches, and His presence is totally absent from the women folk who do not espouse to the doctrines of demons…..comp theology. ‘Tis a sad, sad day when Jesus is left knocking outside of these buildings/hearts of people.
And thanks for the cookie tips, CH. I share your enjoyment of the culinary arts!
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@ Katy
Much empathy for you Katy being married to a comp man. I consider myself very lucky to have never been married to one. I saw how miserable and demeaning it was for my poor mother. She had a comp father, a comp mother, and a comp husband. None of the three of them loved her at all. All three of them were sexually sadistic.
I am dyslexic and my father would not buy us school books every year; when he decided to buy us school books we would skip grades. This was fine for my extremely smart sister, but not me. I am not good at English or grammar. When I write here I do not want people to think about me now as an adult. I am safe and free. I am writing for the little girls now who are being sexually abused growing up in Christian misogyny. If I was more literate and internet savvy I would start a global Metoo movement for poor children. Look at these rich, powerful, Hollywood women. They were ashamed and scared to speak out. Think how alone poor children feel. The number one thing I am angry about is child sexual abuse. One of my cousins committed suicide because he was raped as a little boy. Another is going to spend twenty years in prison. He was used as a little boy sex toy and I blame this for him being in prison. He has always been nice, loving, and respectful to the family. He is blond, small, and has blue eyes. It is traumatizing thinking what he goes through in prison when he has already been through that stuff and it is why he is there.
It makes me so mad when liberal women say, “would you treat your wife or daughter like that?”
I want to scream at them, yes! You think what they say to you and want for you is bad? You should hear how they really feel. What they say behind closed doors to their wives and daughters. Women and girls they really feel confident hurting.
I think the number one problem in the world is people wanting to make others feel bad and hurt others to make themselves feel good. Two men who post here do not think a woman should divorce her husband if he beats or sexually abuses her. A decent person does not want to be with someone or have sex with someone against that persons will.
If my sister does not want to hang out with me I don’t want to ruin her night by making her.
I would never want a man to have sex with me against his will, have a child with me against his will, or be married to me against his will. That is not love, decent, or good. With all the problems I had with men in the beginning of my life, I would be ashamed and sick at my stomach if I told a man he had to be submissive to me. I do not want strangers to feel I am treating them like dogs or slaves. I would not want to give a stranger those demeaning feelings. I definitely would not want to give my spouse or the father of my children those degrading demeaning sick feelings. I don’t want anyone on the globe living that way. I would not want my children to see me treat their father so disgustingly.
If you love human beings you do not tell them they have to be submissive to other human beings. You do not tell them they have to stay in a relationship with someone who has hit them or sexually abused them.
The truth is Katy I see you, Mark, Lea, Julie Anne, Avid Reader, D, Serving Kids in Japan, and Daisy showing empathy and thinking about what victims are saying.
Ya’ll are showing the spirit of Christianity. I really do not believe my father, most of the men I grew up going to church with, Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips, Paige Patterson, Bill Gothard, JimBob Duggar or any of these other men are really Christians. They are just scared evil misogynist who found power in the bible. They are opposite of the Jesus my grandmother taught me to love, trust, and respect.
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Thank you, CH. That means a lot to us.
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Ch, I do do that! I like them soft 🙂
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Ch, thank you. I haven’t always understood everything and I certainly don’t now, but I hope I care about the things that matter and am always open to learning. Your life experience have been hard. I truly hope for you to live a wonderful life now.
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Christianity Hurts,
Your kind words touched me heart and I am grateful you are here. We value you as a human being, an individual, and I would like to say, as a friend. If we open our hearts and minds, we can learn from each other and hopefully try to understand the other person’s experiences, responding to each other in a way the honors Jesus.
I’m glad you are here to share, educate and minister (yes, minister!) to us, and have to say, that it’s “therapy” for all of us in helping us to understand others. Julie Anne has provided an excellent resource for those whose voices need to be heard, and you are a blessing to all of us here. I sincerely mean that.
You are loved here, CH, and Avid and Lea, and others, have such a sweet way with words of encouragement. The Barnabas’s (his name means son of encouragement) are still amongst us desiring your well being and success here. And we praise God for you.
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@ Serving Kids in Japan
“smug and dismissive of women’s and sexually abused little girl’s pain”, I think she’s mistaken.”
The first time I read a post here by KAS he was being a hateful, heartless, jerk to Dash, a person who said he had been sexually abused by his own mother when he was a baby.
Dash said, “My mother sexually molested me when I was two. The mere idea of sex makes me physically sick.”
KAS said, “What had gone through my mind was that I have met and heard on two occasions men who have suffered very much more that you have – by a long way.”
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2017/04/20/victim-of-bill-gothards-teachings-shares-emotional-aftermath/
KAS has never shown love or empathy in a post I have ever read by him. When I read the post to Dash I assumed he was a devoted protector of Bill Gothard and he did not want his victims saying how much they had been hurt. He sounded like he hated Dash and wanted Dash to shut up.
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Christianity Hurts,
Yes, I remember KAS’ attitude towards Dash. It irritated me back then, and it still bothers me now. In a way, it bothers me even more now, knowing that KAS has a daughter who has suffered from abuse, and who’s still suffering because of it. One would think he’d be more sensitive to someone like Dash, and it confuses me terribly that he isn’t.
I still believe that he cares very much for his own daughter, and is terribly worried about her health and welfare. I just wish he showed the same concern and compassion for people like you and Dash.
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