Discuss: What Can Men Do to Help Remove Misogyny from the Church? Inquiring Elder Wants to Know.

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I received a private message on Twitter a week or so ago from an elder at a church. He reached out to me after reading Beth Moore’s letter to Christian men. You may recall that Beth Moore, in her letter, asked men to put away misogyny and act Christ-like towards women. Here are a few key paragraphs from Beth Moore’s letter:

As a woman leader in the conservative Evangelical world, I learned early to show constant pronounced deference – not just proper respect which I was glad to show – to male leaders and, when placed in situations to serve alongside them, to do so apologetically. I issued disclaimers ad nauseam. I wore flats instead of heels when I knew I’d be serving alongside a man of shorter stature so I wouldn’t be taller than he. I’ve ridden elevators in hotels packed with fellow leaders who were serving at the same event and not been spoken to and, even more awkwardly, in the same vehicles where I was never acknowledged. I’ve been in team meetings where I was either ignored or made fun of, the latter of which I was expected to understand was all in good fun. I am a laugher. I can take jokes and make jokes. I know good fun when I’m having it and I also know when I’m being dismissed and ridiculed. I was the elephant in the room with a skirt on. I’ve been talked down to by male seminary students and held my tongue when I wanted to say, “Brother, I was getting up before dawn to pray and to pore over the Scriptures when you were still in your pull ups.”

I’m asking for your increased awareness of some of the skewed attitudes many of your sisters encounter. Many churches quick to teach submission are often slow to point out that women were also among the followers of Christ (Luke 8), that the first recorded word out of His resurrected mouth was “woman” (John 20:15) and that same woman was the first evangelist. Many churches wholly devoted to teaching the household codes are slow to also point out the numerous women with whom the Apostle Paul served and for whom he possessed obvious esteem. We are fully capable of grappling with the tension the two spectrums create and we must if we’re truly devoted to the whole counsel of God’s Word.

Finally, I’m asking that you would simply have no tolerance for misogyny and dismissiveness toward women in your spheres of influence. I’m asking for your deliberate and clearly conveyed influence toward the imitation of Christ in His attitude and actions toward women. I’m also asking for forgiveness both from my sisters and my brothers. My acquiescence and silence made me complicit in perpetuating an atmosphere in which a damaging relational dynamic has flourished. I want to be a good sister to both genders. Every paragraph in this letter is toward that goal.

The man who contacted me told me that Beth Moore’s letter was read at their elders’ meeting. He asked me how men could practically put into place what Beth Moore was talking about. Yes!!! I will include his questions and expand them with some of my own. This is the kind of conversations we need to be having in churches.

  • There’s a challenge – especially with some cultures within church that the issue stops at the question of sexual immorality and understanding that there were other issues about how men and women relate – especially how male leaders relate were maybe not so easy to grasp for some. How can male leaders engage in healthy relationships with sisters in Christ? How can men uphold integrity for themselves and women in their day-to-day dealings with women both inside and outside the church?
  • That whole fear culture – how do we get beyond that?Is there a way to move beyond that in a healthy way?
  • How can we talk helpfully and appropriately and honestly as churches in dealing with misogyny?

photo credit: SMBCollege SMBC graduates serve as cross-cultural missionaries and ‘tent makers’ in locations around the world via photopin(license)

246 comments on “Discuss: What Can Men Do to Help Remove Misogyny from the Church? Inquiring Elder Wants to Know.

  1. KAS – According to this Wiki article, there are 108 interpretations of the complete Bible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations

    There’s always the ESV that can be used to fall back on now.

    Piper’s been preaching since 1980, CBMW started in 1987, and Desiring God started in 1994. The teaching’s been alive and well for some time now.

    Think and believe what you want. We are not going to see eye to eye on this issue and I’m okay with that. If you cross the line of abuse, that’s where I’m most concerned. Doesn’t mean I won’t push back, though, just like I expect you will.

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  2. Julie Anne and Kathi,

    I looked at the introduction of your blog. Then I read up on his Theology which compares with another church in Eastern Montana and to a less extent Westboro. Similar too many in the abuse culture.

    If wouldn’t surprise me if you were “love balmed” with attention (but not in the normal sense of attending a new church) when you first attended that church. After awhile, maybe you discovered his controlling and preaching style was unlike any you have ever seen before.

    I didn’t dig to see if he attended or took on-line seminary classes and where or who mentored him, to defend his ideology at all cost.

    I did some research (Peter Lumpkins for one) and there is a movement “referred as Stealth or Covert” of 5 Point Calvinist who take Calvinism to a whole new level of not disclosing their Doctrine. In fact some of them don’t even called themselves Calvinist anymore, but still follow the teachings within TULIP and will mentally abuse by force feeding their teachings to those who sees holes in their teachings, enough to break them down or run them out of the church.

    It seems as if Stealthiness isn’t as prevalent, as now they realize it is was obviously too deceiving and sinful.
    .

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  3. This was the answer I was hoping you wouldn’t make!

    It is very inconvenient to have these inequalities pointed out I suppose. Imagine how inconvenient for the ones who are actually treated unequally.

    If the men on here are not seeing the misogyny it is because they aren’t seeing it. Not because it isn’t there.

    To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle,” George Orwell.

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  4. If you are egalitarian in your understanding, stop saying the complementarian understanding is sexist, let alone misogyny, even if you disagree with it

    This is a dodge. Beth Moore is talking about every day misogyny and she clearly lays out how she gave these men a pass for some time because she thought that they were honest in trying to follow the Bible and now realizes that their behavior is coming from somewhere else.

    Yet again, people have deal honestly with this. You can’t just handwave bad behavior and poor attitudes towards women as faithful to the Bible because none of it is faithful.

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  5. Kathi,

    The thing about misogyny and not sharing the same doctrine is a fine line.

    It seems as all of us, at one time or another is trying to see it the same as the other.

    When the woman (and her husband) don’t embrace the same doctrine in the church they are attending and try to change the doctrine and the church is trying to change the woman (and her husband’s mind) in a civilize way, but neither are successful doesn’t always trigger.hate.

    Some churches will direct you to their church by-laws and mission statement and leave it at that, choosing not to force feed their doctrine on you and that’s that.

    We don’t agree, but we don’t ridicule and they don’t ridicule.

    Some that don’t agree with their doctrine may still be very critical of that church.

    Other times a church might tell you your destination is hell if you don’t following their version of “Truth.” and be more combative willing to go toe to toe, if you are willing to do the same.

    I choose to leave a church like that. I’m not going to convince Hall, Phelps or O’Neil nor do I want to embrace the abusive tactics the is incorporated in their methodology, one of which triggered a suicide of a youngster trying to defend his father from being stalked repetitively from Hall.

    The doctrinal differences are vast even within the SBC.

    A 5 Point (no TULIP) Arminian that is dug in deep in their doctrine isn’t going to convince a 5 Point Calvinist to see it the same as they do.

    So much so, they are battling in the most vulgar way going so far in some cases of questioning each others salvation,, The Reformed TULIP boys doing most of the judging,, It’s TULIP of bust.

    Essentially they are verbally abusing and insulting one another and yes this is happening within the SBC

    Most Congregations don’t even know this battle is going on don’t know what a Calvinist or an Arminian is.. Up until 5 years ago I thought all baptist had one Doctrine,, Baptist.

    But I’m discovering Baptist isn’t a doctrine.

    You have one Pastor who is an Arminian and leading a church for 5 years and then a stealth Reformed 5 Point Tulip Pastor taking his place who flat out has a different interpretation of scriptures,, then you have a congregation of confusion, which is going on throughout the SBC.

    Sure abuse happens in many denominations, and not all the Reformed TULIP boys are abusive.

    If you don’t know the doct’rine of the church, the by-laws in their constitution or their mission statement, then you probably don’t know what you are getting yourself into and are vulnerable.

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  6. D,

    That’s why we need to focus on the words of Christ. Not the thousands of people’s different opinions on the words of Christ.

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  7. D: “MarkI I don’t know where I said it was Ok. I’ll have to go back and check my responses..”

    Are you the church? I said, “Yet, the church has no problem ordaining…”

    I’m saying that the typical complementarian hermeneutic of leadership qualifications is broad enough to drive a bus through when it comes to men, yet narrowly defined when it comes to women.

    I know men who have been ordained with kids no older than maybe 3rd grade, or out of seminary with a toddler. Then over the years, one or more of their kids become wayward and yet they are never removed from office.

    I think it’s pointless to try and debate this, but according to Strongs, there are 2006 occurrences of the word “ish” (man) in the Old Testament. Ish is most definitely a masculine word, used in places like: Gen 2:24 (man shall leave his father and mother), but it is also used in places like: Lev 19:3 “Every one[man] of you shall reverence his mother and his father”.

    So, here you see the hypocrisy of complementarianism – Lev 19:3 literally says every man shall… but it’s “okay” to say that it is really referring to both men and women. Yet, Lev 20:27 says “Now a man or a woman…” So, there is plenty of evidence for all sorts of interpretations. To give another example, in the Ten Commandments, it says, “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife” – we presume that it is also not okay for the wife to covet her neighbor’s husband, and in fact many would say that is understood by the language. But… when Paul says “the husband of one wife”, these very same people assert that the language is not transitive in the same way that they claim for the Ten Commandments.

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  8. “If you don’t know the doct’rine of the church, the by-laws in their constitution or their mission statement, then you probably don’t know what you are getting yourself into and are vulnerable.”

    Beyond that, you need to see how they are interpreted. I had an ordained pastor tell me that members did not have a right to appeal even though he vowed that he understood and agreed with the church constitution and the church constitution explicitly said that members had the right to appeal.

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  9. Avid Reader,

    I don’t dispute that. But all churches within the SBC and other denominations proclaim to focus on the words of Christ.

    Much of the abuse involves people force feeding their will on others.

    Sometimes it involves doctrine other times an aggressive personality bullying a weaker one, Sometimes it involves 2 strong personalities colliding, wasting their time convincing how wrong the other is.

    Hmmm,, Not just isolated in Churches, but also in many marriages. People not getting their way on every little thing.

    Seeings how this is focusing on misogyny in churches and women. It is best (if possible) before entering into a church, to know the doctrine, constitution and mission statement.

    Truthfully how many of really do that? But it can help prevent abuse from happening. I know I didn’t know the various stealth doctrines floating around within the SBC

    As a man, I wish I was given that advice along time ago to do my homework, before entering into a church.

    For marriages, it is similar advice I’m giving my adult kids about entering into a marriage, to understand who they are marrying and for their partner to know who they are as well.

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  10. Mark,

    I wrote: “If you don’t know the doct’rine of the church, the by-laws in their constitution or their mission statement, then you probably don’t know what you are getting yourself into and are vulnerable.”

    Your response back: “Beyond that, you need to see how they are interpreted. I had an ordained pastor tell me that members did not have a right to appeal even though he vowed that he understood and agreed with the church constitution and the church constitution explicitly said that members had the right to appeal.”

    I think there are various things to consider, sure Biblical interpretation is one of them, but that usually coincides with the doctrine they believe. So nailing down what Doctrine the Pastor believes is paramount, to make sure it matches the doctrine of the Church.
    But there are other factors, that I hate to mention, but it also comes down to personality of the Pastor and whether or not the attendee’s personality doesn’t mesh with the Pastor.. (or another’s words, they don’t like each other)

    It doesn’t make it right, but the Pastor is human and so is the attendee.

    When it comes to preaching I’m not a harsh, fire and brimstone kind of guy, my wife likes, but not as much as she use to, out of respect for me. Sure I think it’s great that a Pastor is passionate about teaching from the bible.
    But in my view, some of it is purposely rehearsed and following a script in the harsh doctrine they have been taught out of seminary to teach and preach. Essentially they are force feeding their will. It can be damaging to those that quite frankly is the last thing they need, in their journey in life.

    That is why, people need to do their due diligence before picking a permanent church.

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  11. Kathi – you meant translations, and yes there are too many of them. Pity there aren’t fewer and we all were better at doing what’s in them!

    The stuff you refer from Piper and CBMW is not what I am getting at. I mean the original NT writings, and the understanding of them that has been the normal practice for the last two millenia – with of course strange variations that may not be justified by the text itself. My understanding, apart from the bible, is reflected in the 1662 Prayer Book and its successors when it comes to marriage.

    I think egalitarians would do well to reflect that their interpretation is less than 50 years old and was discovered coincidentally with the rise of modern feminism.

    Any interpretation honestly trying to deal with what the bible actually says by definition cannot be abusive, I don’t see where this cause and effect idea comes from with regard to complementarianism.

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  12. Avid Reader – you keep mentioning Corrie Ten Boom, and I would have no problem with her ministry to both men and women. She wasn’t an expository teacher of scripture in a local church as far as I know. That is what Paul is getting at. (My mother knew her incidentally shortly after WW2.)

    Regarding an earlier comment of yours (as an aside) in my considered opinion you cannot get the meaning of source language words (e.g. Greek) from looking them up in a dictionary or lexionary.

    I looked up Titus 1 : 6 if any man is blameless etc for elders. Is it any man or anyone? The Greek word is tis, and you can learn online that it is an indefinite pronoun and masculine. Is it masculine to agree grammatically with the word elders in Greek that precedes it (NIV), or husband of one wife that follows it? Can it be grammatically masculine gender, but include women as well? I haven’t got the foggiest idea, the only answer is to put in the graft and learn Greek, grammar syntax and vocabulary.

    The German versions of this verse differ in much the same way as English, but at least using einer for anyone which is masculine implies men are in mind.

    I’ve spotted others referring ‘to the Greek’ elsewhere where it is clear they have no idea how translation works, Kephale being the classic.

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  13. KAS,

    Your mother is very lucky to have met Corrie Ten Boom. I would have loved the chance to meet her. Instead I got to know her through her writings which every believer should read. There is so much power in her books.

    Now KAS wrote:
    “I think egalitarians would do well to reflect that their interpretation is less than 50 years old and was discovered coincidentally with the rise of modern feminism.”

    Wrong. God has been raising up women with spiritual gifts from the beginning of time. This goes back in American history to the earliest days of the colonies. Before that in England during the early days of Methodism, Wesley sent out female preachers. Before that, there was Junia the female Apostle in the NT and Phoebe the Deacon. Before that was Deborah the judge over the whole nation.

    Now KAS, you just gave us the perfect example of how Comp theology keeps contradicting itself:

    Step 1: Comps forbid women from teaching groups of men and women.

    Step 2: Comps contradict themselves by allowing Corrie Ten Boom to teach groups.

    Step 3: Comp theology doesn’t want Corrie to teach the Word while she’s teaching in the church because of the plumbing God gave her. That doesn’t make any sense. How can she minister the Word without referencing Scripture? How could God possibly not want the preaching of the Word?

    These kind of silly mental gymnastics are just roadblocks in the way of God’s will being accomplished on the Earth. Think about it. When Jesus sent out the Seventy, did He tell them to teach, but be careful not to do any “expository” teaching of Scripture? Of course not.

    So why does the church keep putting roadblocks in the way of people called by God to minister? There’s a reason that the Apostle Paul had to tell the church to “help these women” who labored with him in the Gospel. (Phil 4:3) Today there’s too much hindering and not enough helping of these women.

    And by the way, if being the husband of one wife is a requirement for leadership—then both Jesus and the Apostle Paul are disqualified! That verse was making the point that someone in church leadership needs to be a “one woman man” not a polygamist or someone who keeps running from one relationship to another.

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  14. KAS, “I think egalitarians would do well to reflect that their interpretation is less than 50 years old and was discovered coincidentally with the rise of modern feminism.”

    The concept of child abuse was ‘discovered’ in the 1870’s. I think despite Calvinists who think the Reformation was the peak of church righteousness and doctrine, God is slowly sanctifying society. So, I would not be surprised to see such novel ideas (such as marital rape, female/male equality and race equality) appear in our society, without precedent.

    When Jesus came, he challenged millennia-old ideas of what pleased God, and I’m sure those ideas were, like our modern ideas, based on “careful exegesis” of Scripture.

    If you want your mind blown, read “The Theory of Ruling Eldership” by Peter Campbell. It’s available public domain. Campbell researched the history of ruling elders and found that Westminster had actually voted against them being one and the same as the elders in the Bible. The “elders” in the Bible were actually pastors, and that was widely held. Then pastors had a group of helpers “commonly called elders” that were not thought of as Biblical elders. That is, until the Scottish church decided that these men were actually elders in the Biblical sense. When the Scottish church joined the Westminster debate, they brought that to the floor. This was debated with the minutes saying that their position was voted down. However, these men returned to Scotland and allowed the misinterpretation (“commonly called elders” = “Biblical elders”) to stand, such that, as far as I know, all the Westminster churches practice a view where the pastor’s helpers are ordained, Biblical elders.

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  15. These kind of silly mental gymnastics

    Avid reader, ‘silly mental gymnastics’ and nonsensical word games and obvious dodges based on this scripture interpretation is what made me dump the idea that women shouldn’t be preachers and all other related silliness in the first place. If you try to really and truly implement it and keep women down it becomes obvious how terrible it is. So you play these little games, and when a woman comes to preach you put her behind a table instead of a pulpit, or you stick a ‘director’ title on her, or you pretend she is just giving ‘testimony’ instead of preaching. It’s all nonsense.

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  16. I think egalitarians would do well to reflect that their interpretation is less than 50 years old and was discovered coincidentally with the rise of modern feminism.

    Even assuming that you’re correct, KAS, how does that prove that the mutualistic approach to gender relations is false? Just because an interpretation or practice is “time-honoured” doesn’t mean that it’s true, or healthy for all believers. Racial segregation and slavery are just a few of the ancient practices which (most) Christians have thankfully outgrown.

    She wasn’t an expository teacher of scripture in a local church as far as I know. That is what Paul is getting at.

    But KAS, how do you know that’s the kind of teaching that Paul was against? I’ve never seen the words “expository teaching” in that passage, or anywhere in any version of the NT, so how do you know that Paul was opposed to women doing this for men, or for mixed groups? And if it’s not OK in a “local church”, why would it be admissible in any other setting? What makes the “local church” so special?

    This is where I agree with Lea and Avid Reader wholeheartedly, and why I find it so difficult to take gender comp doctrine seriously. I think it’s ill-suited to combatting misogyny in the modern church.

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  17. Very interesting KAS that you actually met Corrie Ten Boom.

    I grew up in a family that has FIRST (not second or more) cousins who are from the LEVANT! That means bible origin DNA (not just a “little” but up to 50%)….. so in a modern day situation of race tension my cousins would be affected by things like anti-semetism. there are also OTHER cousins that could possibly have Jewish heritage within 10 generations because “grandpa/dad” took a heritage test with JEwish heritage.

    Now this is MY BIOLOGICAL family. Not some “foreign” family that has no “clue” of the origins and PURPOSE of the HOLY BIBLE.

    The HOLY BIBLE is for HOLY LIVING in males AND females.

    To this day, I regret giving a lot of time and energy to “far-left” who claim that “the law” is not for today (then that means, stealing, bearing false witness etc. are ok today)……”the law” contains many things that say it is wrong to do harm to other fellow “Jews” or to “have hate” in the heart. Are ONLY the “men” required to do these things to BE HOLY? The answer is simple. NO!

    Consider the story of Joseph and how he was treated…….by a woman, Potiphar’s wife.

    From what I recall happened in Nazi Germany, WOMEN who were not JEWS or other targeted groups were attacking men in the camps……it wasn’t just men. RACISM comes through the failure in women to come face to face with her own sin condition…..what ever it is…..anger, forgiveness etc etc.

    So the solution to overcome misogyny……is basically, confront the issues in the heart of man…..and woman. If they are catering to a life of “lawlessness” (God’s laws are easier than man-made laws by the way……yolk is easy, burden is light), they will end up catering to MISOGYNY merely by the aspect of creating their OWN idol of how a man should treat a woman……and how a woman should treat a man.

    If men are attacked (like my cousin)……my mind starts to wonder……what is the problem in the value structure of “the woman”……… My cousin works as a doctor saving lives day in and day out.

    HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT…….for righteousness sake.

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  18. This is essentially the “key verse” because “lawlessness” = disorderly conduct.

    Gal_3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

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  19. Hi Anon,

    We can all agree with the point that you were making that evil is not limited to one gender. There are both bad women and bad men.

    I also agree with you that there’s work that needs to be done in dealing with certain attitudes that are fueling misogyny in the church. However the real root of it all is entitlement mentality.

    Pulling that tree up by the roots will require digging up the deeply rooted entitlement mentality. The more we study the NT the more we will see both Jesus and the Apostle Paul directly attacking that.

    For example when the Pharisees protested Jesus healing the lady in the synagogue, Jesus turned the tables on them by arguing that she (as a daughter of Abraham) was entitled to all the same privileges that they claimed (as sons of Abraham). That she had a right to be freed from the oppression that she had suffered for eighteen years, even when her healing was inconvenient to them. Jesus made the point that they were hypocrites for having argued otherwise. (Luke 13)

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  20. Yes avid reader,

    i agree with getting rid of the pharisee attitude. Like the woman caught in adultery, he that is without sin cast the first stone. But Jesus rightly addressed that NO MAN is without sin, and thus the woman was spared her life.

    The Sadducee of the story would want “the woman” to return to “her sin” which would not fix the problem but further ignite……..her adultery driven perhaps misogynous relationship. Hence Jesus told the woman “sin no more”…….pointing her to “the law”….. which is less burden than the Pharisee OR the Sadducee would like to admit.

    Hatred has an origin, essentially. Either leniency or hypocrisy are the culprit.

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  21. avid reader,

    Read the “road signs” on the road. They have a speed limit.

    God’s laws are like that too. We unfortunately have ALL broken these laws……so HE paid the price for that speeding ticket.

    Since he paid the price should we continue to “speed” down the road?

    No.

    It is for a “woman’s” safety. Of course there is a touch of adjustment to different culture, different century, and different statistics…….but “the law” is still the same principle. The “exceptions” are that a person may “speed” down the road WHEN there is an emergency…..but not for any other reason.

    The law is like the “illustrated dictionary” of how to treat humanity. It is simpler than the “man-made” oppressive laws (oh my yes, anyone who won’t ……and keep tabs on so and so…..need to keep up with the Kardashians…..etc etc)

    If a person thinks that “keeping up with the Kardashians” or other similar celebrities will bring “healing” to women……they obviously have a lot of learning to do. It simply isn’t realistic.

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  22. Lea, if I could ‘Like’ your comment multiple times, I would. It’s not surprising, however, that there are women who align themselves with men – oppressed women will often succumb, to grab a little power vicariously. As I’ve said previously, it’s depressing. Hopefully the lurkers will consider all points in the discussion.

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  23. Carmen,

    I don’t follow “the duggars” (I personally don’t think they represent true genuine truthful Christianity)….. but I do notice that the “Kardashians” have endured MORE abusive relationships than “the duggars”….. that says a lot about leniency in the lives of women. It doesn’t “fix” the problem. Take the stats.

    Before women know it……”sharia laws” will knock on the door and lenient women will WISH for a better marriage…..a marriage free from “incest”…..”rape”……”pedophillia” …… “sodomized sons”…… etc etc etc. Some people NEED to do research on the after shock of Islam (or any other political ideology fake-solution….including the values pushed on women in Nazi Germany)……. in order to SEE the value in HOLY BIBLE types of guidelines.

    I’m not saying that EVERY woman/family needs to live in a “no tv” or “no internet” or “no education” state of life (like the duggars seem to push)…..as this in and of itself is a poor exegesis of scripture, but I AM saying to beware of the folks who “claim” woman’s rights when in actuality the TRUTH is not in their hearts about the condition of change in heart for ALL people involved….man/woman/older/younger/tongue/tribe etc.

    Uninformed women, lead others astray. Try doing research.

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  24. I really haven’t read much or anything about “sharia law” in this thread.

    It really isn’t discussed enough in DC either.

    Must be a politically incorrect thing to talk about.

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  25. I disagree with everything you’ve stated, anongrace. We’ll leave it at that because it’s obvious you’ve been thoroughly indoctrinated by – and support – the patriarchal system. Which, in my opinion, is damaging to men but brutal and oppressive for women.

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  26. Carmen,

    I’m not familiar with “the patriarchal system” as to what you are referring.

    My take on the word Patriarch/Matriarch in the Bible, like in the case of Abraham and Sarah being a Patriarch and Matriarch. And when Abraham passed, then Isaac would be considered the Patriarch and not sure who take Sarah’s place as the Matriarch if she passed. Would probably have to be Isaac’s spouse Rebecca?

    In the modern era, some would say that in the Kennedy family, that Ted Kennedy represented being the Patriarch after his father and brothers passed. I would guess the after Rose passed, the Matriarch would be Jean Kennedy. Maybe (Robert’s son) Joe Kennedy being the grandson of Joe Kennedy Sr. might be considered the Patriarch.

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  27. D – a discussion of the patriarchal system would take far too long to explain to you, I’m afraid. If you don’t realize you’re living in one, then what can I say? 😉

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  28. Carmen,

    So it isn’t the same as I described Abraham being a Patriarch and Sarah being a Matriarch.

    I’m in a remote place north and east of the Mason-Dixon Line, if that means anything.

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  29. A patriarchal system is one in which males hold prominent power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege, and control of property. That’s from Wikipedia, by the way.

    There are those who think it’s not like that anymore. . . I beg to differ. I will remind you that Julie Anne’s blog is aimed – for the most part – at women who are very much under the influence of the patriarchal system for one overwhelming reason — they are religious. Religion – in and of itself – is notoriously sexist. Several people commenting on this thread are powerful illustrations of that very thing – they are attempting to use Biblical references to justify sexism. Many of us see through their bullshit.

    Now, if you think everything I’ve said is wrong, why on earth would Julie Anne be posting this topic? (And many others she’s posted since she began). She may not be as vocal (or as undiplomatic) as I am, but her message is the same.

    Women need to be empowered.

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  30. What’s interesting about this discussion is that empowering women is the whole point of what we do here.

    Think about how many times the Bible emphasizes the need for “self-control.” Being in control of our lives is the definition of empowering women. That the will of God for our lives is that we would have ownership of ourselves and our resources, time, property, etc.

    There’s a reason that self-control is so important that it’s listed as one of the Fruits of the Spirit. Because we cannot obey God unless we have “control” over our selves. On the other hand, both patriarchy and Comp theology are forms of “other-control” because they require someone else to be in control of our lives.

    Think about why Jesus came in the first place (Luke 4):
    1) To set the captives free
    2) To help people see again
    3) To free the oppressed

    Now think of how that empowers women
    1) Setting them free from all types of oppressive systems
    2) Helping them come out of the fog to see the right direction
    3) Getting them out from under all types of bondage

    Empowering women is very important to the heart of God. That’s why we are going to keep preaching this until the church as a whole finally listens.

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  31. Carmen,

    Thank you for you explanation. I see what you mean with stuff like polygamy is secretly being practiced. But also in cult circumstances.

    Like I mentioned, I live in a remote place and luckily my wife nor I have experience the type of Patriarchy you are referring, with exception of some serious spiritual abuse for not believing in the 5 Point Reformed Doctrine.

    I can’t wait to see Julie Anne tackle Sharia Law, which in my view may end up being more “progressive” of a problem as leaders of our nation change administrations one from the next and gradually allow full blown open borders and more globalization and outside cultures intermixing with ours.

    Like

  32. I’ve still not had time to read all posts in this thread since I was here like around two days ago.
    I just skimmed the last handful of posts, and saw this:

    anongrace said,

    ..but I AM saying to beware of the folks who “claim” woman’s rights when in actuality the TRUTH is not in their hearts about the condition of change in heart for ALL people involved….
    man/ woman/ older/ younger/ tongue/ tribe etc.

    Plenty of people already know the truth about Jesus, sin, the Gospel, in their hearts (and their minds0 and yet sexism still exists in the world.

    When I accepted Jesus as my Savior when I was a child, it did not make sexism cease to exist.

    As I grew older, I had sexist college professors who harassed me. I had strange men proposition me when I worked as a sales clerk. I’ve had men lean out their car windows to cat-call me. Knowing Jesus did not rectify any of that behavior.

    Telling people – especially other Christians – that the root of the problem is sin is preaching to the choir, a big “no duh,” and isn’t going to actually solve world-wide systemic problems.

    You have Christian men who “know the truth” and yet they have affairs on their wives and beat their wives.

    Jesus, the Bible, and the Christian faith also do not cure depression, anxiety, and other problems.

    You cannot and will not be able to convert every Non-Christian on the planet to Christianity, they all believe in Jesus, and magic presto, all sin including sexism will come to a halt.

    Even if you could convert all people to Christianity, they’d still sin. I point you again to the numerous Christian men who end up in the news, some who even work as pastors, who get arrested for using kiddie pr0n, abusing their wives, having affairs.

    You must be into that “kingdom theology” or whatever it’s called. It was followed by TBN’s Jann Crouch. They believe all Christians can make the world holly and pure, and when they do, Jesus will return to earth. That is bogus theology.

    You keep tossing out this non-solution, that if everyone just repents, has faith in Christ, then all problems will cease, sexism will vanish. The Bible does not teach this at all.

    Liked by 1 person

  33. Faith and Feminism from The Banner site

    For many, the term “feminist” may call to mind images of angry, bra-burning, men-hating, abortion-loving women.

    But a feminist is simply a person who believes in the inherent equality of men and women and is committed to advocating for a world that reflects that equality.

    Feminism questions why, since men and women share a common humanity, one sex has more privileges, opportunities, influence, resources, freedoms, and protections than the other. Feminists also aim to correct this disparity by securing legal and political rights for women.

    While Christian feminists may disagree with particular commitments of some modern feminists, including support for abortion, they share with them a fundamental conviction that men and women are created equal and that this equality should be manifest in homes, churches, and society.

    Like

  34. Well, D, if and when tRump implodes you’ll have Mike Pence – a Dominionist – as President. The whole world will see Christian Sharia in action. It won’t be pretty. 😦

    Like

  35. Thanks Carmen,

    If it wasn’t for sites like Spiritual Sounding Board, I wouldn’t have been able to see the amount of spiritual abuse that was going on.

    Sharia Law has a definition all its own in how they view woman.

    Administrations come and go but in the end, American politicians are trending more globalist.

    If open borders and inclusion of things like the expansion of Sharia Law is your thing be patient because after 2024, globalist policies will accelerate and you’ll be able to breath a sigh of relief.

    My daughters have a college education and have a mind of their own, don’t think they will be able to fully exercise their opinion under Sharia Law,, neither will sites like Spiriting Sounding Board.

    Like

  36. Carmen, Even former President Jimmy Carter embraces safe, orderly and legal border crossings,

    The more open we are, the harder it will be to prevent even more toxic cultures who treat their women worse. At least now, we have laws on the books against abuse.

    Just have to enforce those laws.

    Like

  37. You did a great job of missing my point there, D. Then again, I’m used to religious people believing what they want and ignoring reality.

    Like

  38. Anongrace – Very interesting KAS that you actually met Corrie Ten Boom.

    No it was my mother who met her. She mentioned it once and I now wish I had asked her about it. It was before Corried became well known and she stayed in a Christian retreat centre being set up in England just after WW2 (1946 – 7).

    If you want to hear something encouraging, my mother once told us that they once had no food for those staying there – rationing, bankrupt country, the destruction of war etc. So the leaders there, ordinary Anglican ministers, (and long before the charismatic movement!) said we will thank God for his provision for us. So they prayed. A few minutes later a farmer turned up out of the blue, having been harvesting his fields, with sacks full of potatoes and other vegetables. ‘I thought you might be able to use these’.

    They believed God had called them to set the place up in the first place and that he would therefore provide for them, which he did, on more than just this occasion.

    Like

  39. I really haven’t read much or anything about “sharia law” in this thread.

    This thread, D, is about what men can do about misogyny in church. sharia law is a dodge. Many of you have badly lost the plot.

    Like

  40. This site’s purpose is to expose abuse, mainly abuse on women. It seems those that practice Sharia Law embrace misogyny.

    Like I say, I can’t wait for Julie Anne to isolate Sharia Law. she’d never run out of material.

    But then, maybe it won’t happen, as those that defend Sharia Law, tend to retaliate violently to those that criticize it, especially women.

    Like

  41. But then, maybe it won’t happen, as those that defend Sharia Law, tend to retaliate violently to those that criticize it, especially women.

    D, this blog has a scope. It tends to focus on the church and abuse, because that is what JA is familiar with and passionate about misogyny in general culture and how it contributes to misogyny in church is certainly on topic. Sharia law is certainly off topic. If you wish to go off topic, feel free, however don’t be surprised or offended when people are discussing the issue at hand.

    A bad thing in one place does not negate another bad thing in another place.

    This particular thread, for instance, is about misogyny in church. Many people on the thread seem to not like talking about that particular topic, which is interesting to me.

    Liked by 1 person

  42. Still haven’t read all posts on here, sorry ’bout that.

    I don’t know if I should read them. My blood pressure may spike.

    Has the thread still devolved from,
    “How Man Can Stop Sexism In Church,” to, “All the Complementarians in the thread are complaining how awful feminism and egalitarianism is, and they want us to defend both” -?

    Like

  43. Carmen said,

    Daisy, thanks for posting that Faith and Feminism explanation.

    You are welcome.

    Though I’m a conservative and don’t agree with secular / liberal feminists on everything, I think other conservatives frequently misunderstand and misrepresent feminists and what they believe. (I did a blog post about that at my Daisy blog.)

    Anyway, here is another similar link that you may like:
    _Perhaps Feminism Is Not The Enemy_, by Michael Jensen

    I think a lot of conservatives and other types of anti-feminists spend too much time making feminism look like a boogeyman. I think it makes a handy scapegoat for them.

    Rather than cleaning the log out of their own eye, they are forever trying to clean specks out of the cultural eye or the feminist eye.

    I really wish other conservatives would spend more time trying to eradicate sexism against girls and women than in complaining about feminism.

    Liked by 1 person

  44. By the way, I take it that “D” and “anongrace” are the same person – ???

    Carmen said,

    Well, D, if and when tRump implodes you’ll have Mike Pence – a Dominionist – as President. The whole world will see Christian Sharia in action. It won’t be pretty.

    Even when I was a very devout Christian, I was never comfortable with having a “Christian nation” with Christians running everything.

    I once saw a preacher interviewed on TV and he mentioned that he didn’t want a Christian theocracy, either, because “your idea of Christianity and mine might be two different things.”

    I was like, yes, thank you, I agree.

    Not all Christians are like this, but there are plenty whose views come close to, or are just like, Islamic militants.

    They don’t want women working outside the home, they don’t want their daughters dating, going to college, etc. They believe the husband should be “boss over” the wife.

    But even the “well meaning” types of Christians who may not be as severe (who are into traditional gender roles) still do their own type of damage – as in my case, my parents instilling those gender roles into me turned me into a codependent doormat, and it intensified my anxiety, and it made my life ten times worse.

    Then you have your Christian gender role guys who usually give harmful counsel to women trapped in abusive marriages: they tell such women divorce is always wrong and to return to the abuser and “pray and submit” to him more – which only enables the abuse, it won’t stop it.

    There again, these pro- complementarian Christians – especially the “soft” complementarians – THINK they are doing good and that they are “being biblical,” but in reality they are totally blind and oblivious to how harmful these “gender role” teachings are to girls and women.

    Their teachings put girls and women into danger. They make girls and women easier prey for the dishonest, the controllers, and abusive men.

    I don’t want to live under a Christian theocracy because those in charge might believe that these backwards, sexist teachings are good, right and true, and force me to live under them, and I do not want to live under them.

    Liked by 1 person

  45. I don’t know if I should read them. My blood pressure may spike.

    Ha, Daisy. When that happens I take internet breaks!

    Like

  46. these pro- complementarian Christians – especially the “soft” complementarians – THINK they are doing good and that they are “being biblical,” but in reality they are totally blind and oblivious to how harmful these “gender role” teachings are to girls and women.

    This is the reason I think many of us engage. I think those people are potentially reachable, if their eyes are opened. Many of us were them once. I grew up without any of the seriously harmful influences I read about so maybe it was easier for me, but still with the idea that men got some sort of stupid veto over decision making in marriage and they were the only ones allowed to be pastors or deacons. [Deacons! Where did that come from even? As an adult I realize I never heard a sermon about phoebe.] Many things were not discussed, but submission sure was.

    Liked by 1 person

  47. Lea,

    All abuse to women in all religions is horrible. Heck, we even have women who post here that don’t profess to be Christians expressing outage with abuse in general, not just Spiritual Abuse.

    Sharia Law is faith based that allows women to be abused and even tortured and killed. It is expanding into America and leaders are falling asleep while on wheel watch, at the helm. That is how big ships pile into the rocks..

    We have male and female leaders probably from both Parties, receiving truck loads of cash from nations that support Sharia Law, who simply look the other way in order to “try” and get themselves elected.

    I want all abuse, whether it is faith based or not to have extreme consequences to the abuser.

    If Sharia Law wasn’t faith based and didn’t have their own form of misogyny, I would’ve never have mentioned it.

    Like

  48. D (is “D” the same person as “anongrace“?) said,

    This site’s purpose is to expose abuse, mainly abuse on women. It seems those that practice Sharia Law embrace misogyny.

    Like I say, I can’t wait for Julie Anne to isolate Sharia Law. she’d never run out of material.

    But then, maybe it won’t happen, as those that defend Sharia Law, tend to retaliate violently to those that criticize it, especially women.

    Please stop trying to derail the thread and change the topic.

    This thread is not about Muslim misogyny and Muslim sexism against women (which I agree is real and exists), but it’s specifically addressing Christians, Christianity, Christian churches, and how Christian men can help eradicate sexism with Christian churches.

    I personally would not object to a thread about how Islam has a misogyny problem, because I’m a right winger and recognize they do have such a problem where-as many readers of Christian spiritual abuse blogs run left-wing and many liberals tend to be highly defensive of Islam, and are loathe to admit that sexism exists within Islam.

    However, it’s my understanding that the main focus of Julie Anne’s blog is restricted to the confines of Christianity, and specifically the spiritual abuse of Christians by pastors, and she sometimes does posts on how certain doctrines hurt women.

    I totally agree and acknowledge the Islam has a problem with sexism – but then, so too does much of American Christianity.

    I see parallels between the sexism of Islam and the sexism of American Christianity, especially under gender complementarianism, Christian patriarchy, and the Reconstructionist and Dominionist views that Carmen was mentioning above.

    Many Christians like to say that their belief system is so different from that of world religions.
    They are often proud of the fact that Christianity is supposedly not like Islam (and other world religions), but in some ways, as taught and practiced, it is exactly like Islam.

    (Some forms of Christianity also resemble, at times, Hinduism and Mormonism, regarding certain teachings about girls, women, and marriage.)
    (continued in part 2)

    Liked by 1 person

  49. (part 2) Re:
    D said,

    This site’s purpose is to expose abuse, mainly abuse on women. It seems those that practice Sharia Law embrace misogyny.

    I do honestly wonder, if it were legal in the U.S.A., if some of the more severe complementarian branches, persons, and churches would be fine with allowing male Christians to do things such as stone female Christians to death for committing adultery, having premarital sex, or being raped (i.e, “honor killings”).

    I wonder if there are not Christian guys out there, like Doug Wilson, Paige Patterson, or John Piper, who believe in patriarchy or comp, who would be fine with male Christians throwing acid in the faces of women for whatever they consider infractions.

    I can seriously see some of these guys supporting such practices – which happen in Islamic communities – and justifying it, by claiming to find “biblical” support for it.

    Currently in the USA, these guys cannot really get away with severe abuse of women, but they try, and their type of theology already aids as a basis for men who want to abuse women.

    You have Patterson coaching women to go back and get hit some more by an abusive husband, and you have stuff like this (done in the name of Jesus Christ):
    Humiliation at Hephzibah House: Restriction and Control over Restroom Breaks – from “Under Much Grace” blog

    Liked by 1 person

  50. I do honestly wonder, if it were legal in the U.S.A., if some of the more severe complementarian branches, persons, and churches would be fine with allowing male Christians to do things such as stone female Christians to death for committing adultery, having premarital sex, or being raped (i.e, “honor killings”).

    I don’t think it’s fair, most would not go that far. But most muslims in the US would not go that far either. And muslim’s vary from country to country, many muslim women are quite well educated in other countries like Jordan, as compared to some Christian communities in the US which would keep women from away from higher education. I don’t hear anyone who wants to discuss that when they bring up sharia law.

    I do think, if we are dead set on bringing up another religious tradition for compare and contrast, that this emphasis on keeping women who have been abused away from police departments and into a sort of ‘church court’, by means of elders and pastor generally, has some relevance.

    JA linked some crazy article on her facebook page where a guy was ranting about the court system and divorce. He (or she I suppose, but probably not) was ranting about how evil it is to let women use the court system. What is the other alternative one might ask?

    Like

  51. So, you look at abusive Christian environments such as Hephzibah House mentioned above, which features abuse of women and girls, and you wonder, how can Christians put a stop to that sort of thing?

    And why do so many Christians victim-blame teen girls who are raped by adult Christian men, such as,
    _Teen allegedly raped, forced to apologize – US news_ – via NBC news site
    -(and that news story happened in a Christian church in the USA, not in Sharia enforced, Islamic, Saudi Arabia)

    And how can Christians put a stop to that type of thing? The specific question for this thread is how can Christian MEN help to fight this sort of violence against girls and women?

    I don’t think telling people to believe in Jesus, recognize sin in the human heart is the root of all evil, or to repent, etc., is the solution.

    These are people who already repented, already accepted Jesus as savior, who have already heard the message that all humans have sin in the heart, and they agree with that…
    But they are still either doing the abuse to women and girls themselves, or, they are standing by defending the abuse, allowing the abusers off the hook, by way of their “men should rule over women” (complementarian or patriarchal) doctrines.

    Liked by 1 person

  52. Daisy, you asked “(is “D” the same person as “anongrace“?)”

    No

    Daisy, as Sharia Law progresses, it will and has already affected Christianity. Heck now in some cases the 2 have combined into “Chrislam”

    Like

  53. Lea said,

    I don’t think it’s fair, most would not go that far.

    I do think some of them would go that far if they were allowed, if they felt they would not face consequences (such as jail time).

    I look at these guys,like Doug Wilson, and I believe he’s already there. This is a guy who’s known to defend slavery, say it was good, and to think it’s fine to marry a pedo off to a young lady, etc, and that’s not even touching his sexist articles.

    I also think of Christian guys like – what is his name, Julie Anne blogs about him – Ron Swanson? He thinks birth control (the pill) = abortion or some such. These men already have very, very regressive ideas about girls and women.

    Some of them (was it Bruce Ware?) have written, said, and believe that women are not as fully human as God, but that women are only a derivative of men. Once one group starts casting another as sub-human, it becomes easier for them to justify and excuse treating other humans like garbage.

    I never said all Muslims are wife beaters and sexists. I don’t believe they are. However, that some of them may allow their girls and women to get jobs, educations, etc, doesn’t change the fact they have a serious and severe problem with misogyny.

    I find chatting with liberals on this point extremely vexing, because the habit is always jump to “Defend the Muslims” and diminish and water down any sexism that goes in in Islamic families, cultures, or nations – it’s like the American complementarians who want to deny that THEIR brand of Christian gender role theology enables domestic abuse and other problems for women.

    Not all complementarian Christian men beat their wives and such, obviously, but that does not change the fact that American Christians (especially the complementarians) have issues with sexism here in the States, even in churches, and it ranges from mild issues (scolding women for wanting to work outside the home, if married) to more harsh ones (such as their views perpetuating domestic violence).

    Liked by 1 person

  54. Correction, I said,
    “said, and believe that women are not as fully human as God, but that women are only a derivative of men.”

    I meant, some of them don’t think that women are as fully in God’s image as men are, but that women are some kind of sub-species, not quite human as men.

    Like

  55. Lea said,

    Ha, Daisy. When that happens I take internet breaks!

    You’ll notice you sometimes don’t see me posting here or at the other blog or where ever for a day or more.

    I sometimes take entire days off Twitter, too.

    I find I need a break from this stuff at times.

    Like

  56. Daisy,

    I answered your question. You asked “(is “D” the same person as “anongrace“?)”
    No
    Daisy, as Sharia Law progresses, it will and has already affected Christianity. Heck now in some cases the 2 have combined into “Chrislam”

    Like

  57. However, that some of them may allow their girls and women to get jobs, educations, etc, doesn’t change the fact they have a serious and severe problem with misogyny.

    I don’t disagree, however when I see this as a way of avoiding problems in our own culture I think it’s a deflection. They are related topics, in that misogyny is built into culture in general, and it shows itself in specific ways in specific sub-cultures. If you are going to force a compare and contrast, we would have to realize that there are different cultures in different muslim countries and in our own country, just as there are differences between Christians in different countries and between fundamentalists, evangelicals, mega’s, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, catholics, etc…

    So lets be specific. Beth Moore sees a specific problem, within a specific culture. Is dislike and marginalization of women driving theology in this specific group, or is theology creating problems of it’s own? I see some combination.

    Liked by 1 person

  58. I don’t follow “the duggars” (I personally don’t think they represent true genuine truthful Christianity)….. but I do notice that the “Kardashians” have endured MORE abusive relationships than “the duggars”

    AnonGrace, how do you know that there are more abusive relationships in the Kardashian family than among the Duggars? I don’t see how that’s been proven.

    We already know that Josh Duggar cheated on his wife, or at least tried to. That’s one. And when he was much younger, he molested four (or five?) girls, including his own sisters. That’s at least five abusive relationships already, and those are just the cases we know about. Sure, the Duggars might put a nice face on TV, but that’s “reality programming” for you. Who knows what’s going on when the cameras aren’t rolling?

    Isn’t it funny how patriarchy and obsessive scrupulosity didn’t keep protect the Duggar kids from abusive behaviour, or from doing evil things?

    Like

  59. Lea,

    I don’t think including Sharia Law in the conversation of misogyny is avoiding problems in our own culture. Sharia Law is faith based and the origin of this faith is widely being accepted in our culture of inclusion.

    If Sharia Law isn’t addressed, it will flourish and may end up making misogyny part of a culture that none of us will be able to identify.

    We are turning a blind eye on our politicians who are allowing Chrisam like inclusion, in this society. Heck we have leaders from this nation bowing to leaders of nations that allow Sharia Law.

    I think “all” faith based abuse and misogyny that is occurring shouldn’t be marginalized. Not exposing Sharia Law is marginalizing misogyny in that faith and that faith is here in this culture now.

    Like

  60. Looking back on the comments, and wondering how Sharia Law became a topic on this thread, I see that anongrace started on that digression. Then “D” took it and ran with it, using a whole bunch of unproven assertions and wingnut predictions. Just as a sample:

    If open borders and inclusion of things like the expansion of Sharia Law is your thing be patient because after 2024, globalist policies will accelerate and you’ll be able to breath a sigh of relief.

    Like

  61. Looking back on the comments, and wondering how Sharia Law became a topic

    Serving Kids in Japan, it’s much easier and less work to point in a different direction and say ‘look over there! Those people are bad’ then it is to talk about the issues in your own culture.

    Isn’t it funny how patriarchy and obsessive scrupulosity didn’t keep protect the Duggar kids from abusive behaviour, or from doing evil things?

    Patriarchy doesn’t protect women. That is not it’s design or purpose. I don’t know how many examples from history or today we need to make that point.

    Like

  62. Sorry everyone. I mis-clicked and posted my comment too early. Here’s what I wanted to say….

    Looking back on the comments, and wondering how Sharia Law became a topic on this thread, I see that anongrace started on that digression. Then “D” took it and ran with it, using a whole bunch of unproven assertions and wingnut predictions. Just as a sample:

    If open borders and inclusion of things like the expansion of Sharia Law is your thing be patient because after 2024, globalist policies will accelerate and you’ll be able to breath a sigh of relief.

    We have male and female leaders probably from both Parties, receiving truck loads of cash from nations that support Sharia Law, who simply look the other way in order to “try” and get themselves elected.

    If Sharia Law isn’t addressed, it will flourish and may end up making misogyny part of a culture that none of us will be able to identify.

    I don’t know about anyone else, but this sounds like CloudCuckoolander territory to me.

    D, whatever support you think you have for these notions, you are bringing this onto the wrong article. Julie Anne posed a question for us: What can men do to eliminate misogyny from the organized church? That’s what this thread is supposed to be about. Your conspiracy theories about sharia law coming to America have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

    I have no doubt that women are treated horribly under sharia, and I’d have no problem with Julie Anne bringing it up for discussion at some point. But I wouldn’t blame her if she never did. American Christendom has more than enough problems for us to deal with at present, and she doesn’t seem likely to run out of material any time soon. No need to entertain bizarre (and vaguely xenophobic) scenarios about a hypothetical future. How about we concentrate on the here and now?

    So, D: What do you think men should do to get rid of misogyny in Christian churches?

    Liked by 2 people

  63. Hi Japan,

    I did respond to your “free spirit” questions yesterday, granted if you are in Japan, then the time difference would make it a little tricky to follow.

    Before I go any further, I’d like to remind you, I’m not the enemy here.

    No man in the church I attend would tolerate misogyny. The community I live in wouldn’t tolerate it either. Though there are those that are involved in heavy substance abuse that do in fact treat their woman like crap. If the woman in addicted and the man isn’t, then she treats him like crap.

    My wife and I would not go into a church that has misogyny. I have blindly collided with a male chauvinist preacher who embraced a doctrine he kept a mystery trying to get him to disclose his doctrine, which he never fully exposed. He treated women like my wife like crap who is well versed on Wednesday night bible studies that use to be open format, which he eliminated.

    Part of the problem with trying to end misogyny in some denominations is there are women who have an option to leave their aggressive methodology and choose to stay.

    Essentially the best way to combat misogyny is either leave or press charges when laws are being broken.

    When attendance drops off in those churches, then many of those that practice misogyny don’t have a congregation and will resign, which is what my former Pastor did. He may have believed in misogyny as being appropriate at times, but he would’ve never been able to get away with it, though he had a great dislike to woman who questioned him.
    He probably thought I was weak for having a well versed wife who wasn’t afraid to share bible verses. She has a tender sensitive heart and if I wasn’t there he would’ve been in her face.

    I even wrote a letter to the SBC, to report my former Pastor for not disclosing what he really stood for.

    So if you go into a church, know the doctrine of the Pastor to see if it matches yours and if he is aggressively force feeding down your throat.

    I also have a tendency to believe, that when a Pastor raises his voice,, scream fire and brimstone, it is rehearse in way to control the congregation.

    .

    Like

  64. Men don’t want to end misogyny. It’s ‘God word and truth’. Give up. Christianity is for the penis, not for the damn hellish vagina. God even hates the title ‘mother’ for Himself, He NEED to be MALE. Female is… Trash, something inferior/diabolic for men shit/hit/sit in.

    They’re the first gender, the ‘owners’… I envy them… God hates women. I have mind, soul, emotions just for men (ab)use, in His name… God hates me for something I didn’t choose.

    Like

  65. Ana.

    Men who love their wives and women in general would not tolerate misogyny.

    We live in a society that doesn’t mentor men and women to understand what it means to emotionally connect. We live in a society that isn’t nurturing or to be kind, by instead to verbally say mean things or retaliate.

    I’m sorry if you are feeling pain or if you have been hurt and abused. I watched my mom deal with rejection and it saddens my heart.

    I would find it surprising if Julie Anne and Kathi feels the same about God.as you.

    I hope you can send them a private email as I think they can say peaceful and soothing things which stimulates the mind.

    Like

  66. Serving Kids: But KAS, how do you know that’s the kind of teaching that Paul was against? I’ve never seen the words “expository teaching” in that passage

    The purpose of Paul in 1 Tim was I am writing these instructions to you so that, … you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God.

    With regard to teaching, instruction in doctrine (cf 1 v 3) he says to the women in 2 v 11 Let a woman learn in silence [quietness] with all submissiveness. So we have a teaching and learning in church context here. He follows this by saying I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men [a man]; she is to keep silent.

    It’s not really that difficult to understand. He then grounds this in pre-fall creation and the fall.

    What can happen but shouldn’t is this gets extended into other contexts when women can and should minister and have gifts. They may teach in the home like Timothy’s mother (vital influence here) or be a Priscilla, or older teach younger. Corrie Ten Boom giving testimony is fine. Interpert tongues, pray for the sick, evangelism, apologetics ministry ….. Paul clearly names several women who were co-workers whom he seems to have valued very highly.

    There is a range of views across the complementarian spectrum, from the stricter MacArthur interpretation to my view above, which places little restriction on what women may do. Neither of them is misogynistic. Even if that understanding were wrong or not intended to be permanent, in the grand scheme of things, i.e. having forgiveness and eternal life, it isn’t that important. Not very many men have this ministry either.

    That there are men with an attitude problem to women who hold the above doctrine I do not doubt (and those who don’t), or Moore wouldn’t have written her open letter, but this does not stem from the teaching itself. Such men need to change their minds and adopt Paul’s attitude towards women.

    It is wrong to be unwilling to reconsider any doctrine, but in discussing this in the past if you give a sincere objection to an interpretation such as mutual submission in marriage, a man will ignore it and say ‘we’ll just have to agree to differ on this’ and a woman will in the end get defiant (which is not exactly the ‘all submissiveness’ Paul enjoined) when they can’t answer it. It’s hardly a persuasive reason to change your mind on this.

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  67. “Neither of them is misogynistic. ”

    Yes, they are. You are not the degraded subjugated woman. You are the puffed up elevated MAN. Self-elevating, elevating yourself above women to make yourself feel special and superior.

    It is so sickening when a misogynistic man tells the people who are receivers of his misogyny “this is not misogyny.”

    KAS, you seethe misogyny. You ignore everything women tell you about how your ideology has hurt them and is hurting them. Out of all the people who post here you are the least like Jesus Christ out of all of them.

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  68. It is so sickening when a misogynistic man tells the people who are receivers of his misogyny “this is not misogyny.”

    It would be nice if the men would do a bit more listening to women, and a bit less telling us about all these men who they don’t think are misogynists, even when they are saying things like ‘women are derivative’ and actively teaching to baby pastors…This IS comp theology. Deal with it.

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  69. “If you are egalitarian in your understanding, stop saying the complementarian understanding is sexist, let alone misogyny,”

    It is misogyny. Pure misogyny. It very much hurts abused women and raped little girls. Not that a selfish comp man would ever slow down and say my insecure selfishness is not worth heaping more hurt on raped little girls. If there is anything comp men excel at it is dismissing raped little girls as irrelevant subhumans.

    Victims of the misogynistic misery that is complementarian can tell everybody that complementarian is misogynistic slop all we want. You are embarrassingly arrogant telling other people what not to say. I tell people complementarian was dreamed up by the same spirit that lived in Ariel Castro and the same spirit that promotes Taliban preferences in Afghanistan.

    “and calling this sexist in front of a watching world harms the cause of evangelism.”

    Complementarians like Bill Gothard, Josh Duggar, Jim Bob Duggar, Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips, Paige Patterson, Jack Schaap, Paul Pressler, C.J. Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, and Tom Chantry do harm to evangelism as well. This list isn’t even naming the child raping, wife beating, comp perverts I grew up with.

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  70. “It would be nice if the men would do a bit more listening to women”

    What I learned from the man who sexually abused me about misogynist is they can’t THINK, CARE, or LISTEN. Thinking, caring, and listening is much too hard, scary, and selfless for them.

    What if their brains and hearts lead them to the conclusion that other people should have the same rights as them and be equal to them?

    What if they discover they need to get over themselves and they are actually very bad selfish people?

    What if it hits them that they are actually heaping hurt on someone else for their own pleasure?

    Comp is about selfish men who have the childish self-centered mentality of underage boys. Thinking, caring about, and listening to women and children’s pain is nowhere on their radar. Everything is about them. It is women and children’s job to feel bad to make the comp man feel better.

    The comp man has to stand on women and children to elevate himself; he is that low.

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  71. Christianity hurts,

    I wish I can find the rights words to say, that is soothing to your mind and heart.

    Many men (and even women, like my mom) were never mentored to understand what it means to emotionally connect, that left society to feed us garbage, much of it in social media, much of it from schools.
    Even many churches aren’t mentoring young people (and adults for that matter) to know what it means to connect with their lover, other if “you are having sex, you better get married” instead of focusing on whether they actually love each other. Able to smile when the other is happy or feeling pain when she is distraught.

    So much of society has been instilling a locker room/porn like mentality of how to treat a woman.

    One thing I’m noticing is people simply don’t know how to talk to each other, when they disagree, which makes it harder for them to discover areas they can agree on. So already they don’t trust each other.

    To be able to get inside the other’s mind enough to understand one another sensitivities and nurture those sensitivities rather than crushing the is what truly stimulates the mind, where they trust and care for each other enough to where they rarely or never raise their voices,,, it’s called being polite.

    These are the sorts of things that should be talked about early in life, but even so it isn’t too late.

    As for the pain you endured, that type of abuse may make my words meaningless.

    But. you deserve happiness and it might have to be you that mentors a man on how to treat a lady, to discover compromises without colliding, to mentor him on what it means to emotionally connect, otherwise he’ll never have a clue.

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  72. Avid Reader: “Empowering women is very important to the heart of God. That’s why we are going to keep preaching this until the church as a whole finally listens.”

    Great post!

    I think where D and KAS are (and where I was) in understanding the Bible was assuming that Moses, Jesus and Paul were out to set up the rules and regulations for having utopia on Earth. That is, that if we just followed their checklists – the Law, the Sermon on the Mount, and the letters to the churches, we could have perfect churches.

    However, there are strong hints that this is not the case. For example, Jesus says, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives”. Paul says, “I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able”. The writer to Hebrews says, “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.”

    So, we have to understand that the OT rules and regulations were not to set up a PERFECT society, but to set up a BETTER society. A process of sanctification, which is strongly in keeping with what we see personally. In the same way, Jesus was probably prevented from having females among the twelve, not because he didn’t desire to break the gender barrier, but because that society, due to the hardness of their hearts, was not in a position to be able to accept it. Moses, Jesus and Paul taught about slaves, not to condone or encourage, but to protect, as much as possible, the evil of the current generation’s hardness of heart.

    So, we have to take a step back and, instead of trying to argue what Paul did or didn’t say in the original Greek about the role of women and blindly structure our church around that, understand that he had limits (milk vs. solid food, he says) on the truth he could teach them, because they were not able to accept it. So, I think Paul’s letters to the churches were not about setting up PERFECT churches, but taking steps to be BETTER churches. I could probably make a few arguments why the church was not ready to have women leaders en masse at that point in history.

    We have the same argument with church polity. In Acts 6, we see the congregation choosing (Congregationalism). Later, we see the gathered elders appointing (quasi-Presbyterianism), and even later, Paul commands Timothy to appoint elders (Prelacy/Episcopal). In Revelation, John is told to write letters to the angel/messenger of each church (Prelacy/Pastor-Elder presbyterian distinction)

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  73. But. you deserve happiness and it might have to be you that mentors a man on how to treat a lady, to discover compromises without colliding, to mentor him on what it means to emotionally connect, otherwise he’ll never have a clue.

    I agree that she deserves happiness.

    I disagree that any man she meets will need to be ‘mentored’ on emotional connection. CH, if you find yourself interested in dating at any point, find someone who needs no mentor. Who has already figured these things out, like a grown adult person.

    In my experience, the chief thing to avoid in men is a deep selfishness. That is the root of so many of these problems. Find one who actually cares, the rest will follow.

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  74. But this is not about dating, this is about the treatment of women in the church. I also think much of this is rooted in selfishness, but also lack of empathy.

    Are we teaching men in church to be selfish, looking after their own needs and not those of others, particularly women, in the church?

    Does that lack of empathy come from being taught that women are not as important as men, that they are derivative copies of men, that they are equal only in some nebulous ‘worth’ but not in day to day interactions or life in general? That men only are worthy and up to making decisions on a regular basis, because despite being described as ‘equal’ they are not really thought of that way.

    All of these ideas contribute to poor treatment of women in church and at home.

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  75. Mark, I think Paul was just giving advice to specific congregations, who had specific issues. The advice you give to your friends differs based on their makeup, temperament and personal issues. It would be the same with churches.

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  76. D, “Many men (and even women, like my mom) were never mentored to understand what it means to emotionally connect”

    No, in fact, they were mentored NOT to emotionally connect. For example, if you read “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”, one of the issues in dating that is raised is that it encourages an emotional connection that WILL lead to sinful behavior. Courting is meant to eliminate that emotional connection so that the couple can rationally consider whether marriage is their best option, then mostly hold the emotional connection for the wedding night.

    If I understand Gothardism, “defrauding” is the term used for women who use means to encourage the emotional connection outside of marriage.

    That is men/women. Women to women relationships aren’t discouraged so much, but men/men relationships are pretty heavily frowned on unless one of the men is a parent or church leader. That’s because there is an assumption that a non-leader, non-parent is in the relationship for some sinful reason – either promoting bad theology or potentially sexual, that’s because all ordinary members are guilty until proven innocent in terms of their motivations. (That’s probably why many pedophiles want to have an official church title).

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  77. Lea, “Mark, I think Paul was just giving advice to specific congregations, who had specific issues.”

    Yes, but that advice was moving them towards righteousness rather than expediency. Think of the Little League World Series. Experienced coaches I know say that these kids never make it to the professional leagues, because the techniques they’re taught are not ‘good baseball’, but ‘winning at 11-13 years old’. So, I think Paul isn’t telling them to do something expedient, but perhaps something that is better, but not best. You can’t necessarily teach 11 year olds to throw out a runner at home from the outfield because their arms are going to be too weak, so you tell them to always throw to the shortstop. In soccer, youth coaches tell their defenders never to kick the ball across the middle, but at higher levels, shifting the field is a pretty common thing. It’s because they’re not mentally and physically able to handle shifting the field at 11yo. So, the argument could be made that Paul is saying, don’t put a woman in charge, not because women are permanently barred from leadership, but because, at that point in the development of the church, the necessary pieces were not in place for women to lead from a cultural and educational perspective.

    I think it is again worth noting that Paul and Jesus were both boundary pushers in terms of the roles they allowed women to have, compared to societal norms.

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  78. Lea, “Are we teaching men in church to be selfish, looking after their own needs and not those of others, particularly women, in the church?”

    Wow, you’re opening up all sorts of cans of worms.

    My personal experience is that I was driven to selfishness. My “needs” were always secondary to the desires of my parents and church leaders. Their desire was to discourage selfishness, but it had the opposite effect. I had to constantly be aware of my needs and satisfy them rather than relying on others, because asking others to meet my needs was selfish. My life, then was externally about being selfless and helping others, but internally, I was completely self-absorbed because I had to be, in a sense, the adult provider in my life.

    This comes up over and over in my marriage. In a sense, I take care of myself, and I give my wife and kids the necessities needed to provide for themselves, but my natural tendency is not to actually lift a finger to provide for them.

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  79. Or he was just talking about that specific church. Or specific women at that church.

    [or it wasn’t even paul]

    I think if you really read Paul in whole letters, not just snippets he makes more sense. He meanders around to a point. He’s never giving you a lawbook. I appreciate him so much more now when I see the letters as a whole.

    Paul talks how one person can eat idol meat and another can’t. How some get milk, because they can’t handle meat. Jesus often talked in circles to the Pharisees.

    Ridiculous to go from that, from this complex book full of stories and allegories and parables and all sorts of other information to ‘here is a verse, done’.

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  80. Wow, you’re opening up all sorts of cans of worms.

    Goodness, Mark. I need to chew on this. I think you probably do more than you think you do, and that you’re even thinking deeply on these things is positive.

    I will ask you, have ever read Brene Brown? I think maybe you would appreciate it. She talks a lot about the importance of vulnerability in making connections, which was helpful to me. Just a thought.

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  81. D,

    I noticed that you responded to my request for more background on your “free spirits” comment. I appreciate that, but I didn’t realize it was you, since you posted as “David” on the other comment thread.

    You seem to keep losing sight of the question posed by this article. We’re supposed to be discussing what men can do to deal with misogyny in churches. In your last few posts, you say things like:

    Part of the problem with trying to end misogyny in some denominations is there are women who have an option to leave their aggressive methodology and choose to stay.

    You’re making the problem about the women again, and foisting the responsibility on them to stop abusive attitudes. Yes, I’m sure they have a part to play, but that doesn’t answer the question being posed to us all.

    Now if I may, I’d like to make a suggestion of my own, based on something you wrote to Christianity Hurts:

    I wish I can find the rights words to say, that is soothing to your mind and heart.

    The best course of action in this case might be: Don’t talk. Listen.

    This might be one of the first and most basic steps that we men can take, in order to combat misogyny. Let women like Christianity Hurts and Ana tell their stories, and share how abuse and entitled attitudes have marred them. We men need to listen and learn from them, and stop acting like we know what’s best for them just ’cause we’re men.

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  82. It would be nice if the men would do a bit more listening to women, and a bit less telling us about all these men who they don’t think are misogynists,…

    Lea, I just realized you wrote this before I did, and should have noted that in my comment just above. Very well said.

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  83. KAS,

    With regard to teaching, instruction in doctrine (cf 1 v 3) he says to the women in 2 v 11 Let a woman learn in silence [quietness] with all submissiveness. So we have a teaching and learning in church context here.

    But how do you know that this is in the context of a local church? Paul doesn’t mention “local church” at all in this passage. How do you know that he wasn’t talking about some particular woman (or group of women) in the Christian community who were taught bad doctrine, and were trying to pass on to men faulty stuff that they’d learned about creation? That makes a lot more sense to me than trying to squeeze gender hierarchy out of Paul’s instructions. Mark’s ideas above seem quite pertinent to this passage.

    Proponents of gender comp keep dragging out this verse as though it’s the be-all-and-end-all of the argument. You don’t seem to realize that you’re reading a clergy/congregant situation into this passage, and it’s not necessarily there. Just like hierarchy isn’t present between Adam and Eve, unless someone reads it into the Genesis story.

    …in discussing this in the past if you give a sincere objection to an interpretation such as mutual submission in marriage, a man will ignore it and say ‘we’ll just have to agree to differ on this’ and a woman will in the end get defiant (which is not exactly the ‘all submissiveness’ Paul enjoined) when they can’t answer it.

    You had better not mean that to apply to all men and women, KAS. You are dangerously close to suggesting that all women are more emotional and less reasonable than all men. I’m a man, and I will most certainly not agree to disagree with this. Keep it up, and you’ll see me getting defiant very soon.

    I can see why Christianity Hurts finds it so hard to trust you…

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  84. Lea, “She talks a lot about the importance of vulnerability in making connections, which was helpful to me.”

    Yeah, vulnerability is not taught in comp. churches, except towards pastors, elders, parents and husbands. In each “superior/inferior” relationship, the superior is expected to be strong and capable and not need to be vulnerable. For example, most pastors in comp. churches do not talk about their faults and sin from the pulpit. Definitely getting better in that regard towards my wife, but there is still some superiority junk hanging around.

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  85. Serving Kids in Japan,

    I wrote: “I wish I can find the rights words to say, that is soothing to your mind and heart”

    You wrote: “The best course of action in this case might be: Don’t talk. Listen”

    I’m not going to collide with you. I have no quarrel with you, She is feeling hated and someone needed to make her feel loved, Being kind and understanding, is not judging, I acknowledge that society doesn’t do a good job mentoring men (and some women) how to interact in a polite and civilized way.

    In my view, she needed someone to tell her she is loved, but also loved by God. if no one says anything soothing in return, it is a form hf rejection. I watched my mom deal with rejection throughout my life.

    If I have been rude to you, I apologize. We have different styles in how we communicate, if my views come across as combating to you it might be best that we don’t respond back to one another’s comments.

    I know you mean well. I also think both of us have seen insane abuse, but it doesn’t seem as if we have walked in one another’s shoes long enough, to start being presumptuous with each other.

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  86. Serving Kids in Japan,

    I did suggest the best to fight misogyny, is for people to not go to those churches.

    In the case of the church that I was attending 6 years ago, the preacher was forcing his hyper-reformed doctrine down the congregation’s throats. The Preacher was spiritually abusing anybody in the congregation that raised questions to his beliefs and his methods, until just a few stragglers were still attending unable to have enough offerings to heat the parsonage.

    Of course if laws are being broken, they need to be reported to law enforcement.

    Otherwise the only thing left is for well versed men and women that choose to stay in that church is to expose his sin so he and the rest of the congregation to address it.

    My suggestion is leave if possible, why financially support a church who hates people. My view if they hate women then they hate themselves.

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  87. Serving Kids: The idea that Paul’s restriction in 1 Tim was due to uneducated women needing time to be instructed is the only interpretation that has nearly made me change my mind on whether this is a temporary instruction or not. I’m afraid it raises more questions than it answers even if at first sight it makes sense. (Is it really possible to believe the women there were so uneducated having had Paul’s apostolic input for 3 years? Priscilla and Aquila? Paul predicted men would come to the church there speaking perverse things …. )

    If there is one thing the apostle’s teaching is not, it is not misogynistic. That ought to be something everyone agrees on.

    Unlike many, I have no problem with the idea of hierarchy, we live in a hierarchical universe. I would, however, say Paul is less establishing a hierarchy in 1 Tim 2 (or the home) as a division of labour. The custodianship of the word of God, his law if you like, is something God gave to Adam rather than Eve, to male teachers and leaders in the church rather than women. God held Adam responsible for the fall rather than Eve, he wasn’t doing his job.

    I am most surprised at your final paragraph. I have indeed talked about this subject on and off both in fellowships and occasionally on the internet (e.g. CBE who asked me to comment more!!). So I have listened, despite claims above to the contrary, and been willing to subject my views to opposing ideas.

    The point I was getting at was the unwillingness of both men and women to discuss this if their interpretation appears to be falling apart. This is not going to persuade anyone to change their minds – and egalitarians should be prepared to do this as much as complementarians. I didn’t mention women’s emotions. Too many (not all) responses over the long haul have led me reluctantly to the conclusion that mutual submission in marriage is deception, it is an untenable doctrine. (I’ve had to deal with a lot of deception in the past, not through choice I may say, and you get to recognise it.)

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  88. I did suggest the best to fight misogyny, is for people to not go to those churches.

    D, I agree people should leave those churches. But that would not stop misogyny and it would not help the people stuck there, like children, who are indoctrinated from childhood to believe some of this stuff is ok. Sometimes it takes them time, like it took Beth Moore, to realize these people are not well meaning folks who disagree on a point of doctrine.

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  89. The custodianship of the word of God, his law if you like, is something God gave to Adam rather than Eve, to male teachers and leaders in the church rather than women.

    Wow.

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  90. Seeing the opinions of men like KAS, Paige Patterson, Doug Wilson, and Bill Gothard get out of the bible I wonder how caring Christians can explain the bible is good when reading the selfish, sadistic, heartless, hateful, cruelty these men get out of the bible and want to heap on children and women.

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  91. Christianity Hurts,
    It’s all about power, as I’m sure you realize. The ones who’ve been trying so hard to rationalize the patriarchal system – the most prolific of commenters on this blog post – just cannot stand the thought of giving it up. I can picture them smirking as they quote the place of power from which they garner their inspiration — the Bible. I’m telling you, ladies. Use your own brain and tremendous personal power of your own.
    I am also wondering if the ‘enquiring elder’ is following this thread. I hope he’s taken a lesson from all the mansplaining. It’s getting old, KAS. It’s also utter shite.

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  92. Lea,

    If the definition of Misogyny is hatred toward women, then it is impossible to force people how to think,

    We can only mentor our daughters to best of our ability, to marry someone that shares the same vision as her. When neither has a vision, then they really don’t know each other enough to get married in the first place.

    If laws are being broken, the abuser needs to be arrested.

    Most people have the ability to stop going to those churches and it is the most effective way for those types of churches to fail, as it takes lot of money to run a church these days.

    To free the rest, would involve some kind of “planting” of families, who specifically are there to adjust and be part of the membership. Then in a stealth way they take over the church.

    But to “free” the rest of those that are completely trapped in an abusive circumstance and can’t escape mental abuse or indoctrination of hatred would be near impossible if the majority of these women, chose to marry these guys.

    We can’t force women not to marry someone or force them how to think, anymore than we can force a man how to think.

    Now granted there are a few women that are fooled if the man charmed her in a way that she was unable to see his true colors. Heck, even rich men and women get married to an opportunist, which is why there are prenups.

    But there are too many couples getting married that aren’t fooled, they simply marry without taking to the time to see if they are truly in love, if they want the same things in life. They get married regardless then he or she or both decided oops, we should’ve never got married in the first place.

    We can’t forcibly stop that from happening,

    I know quite of few couples that get married only dating less than a year, never really had it together and many get divorced because they weren’t truly in love and that by itself would feel like both are putting themselves through mental abuse.

    .

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  93. Lea, If the definition of Misogyny is hatred toward women, then it is impossible to force people how to think,

    Hatred is its root, but it is also defined as “dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women”.

    We cannot ‘force’ people how to think, but we can address this errant thinking, and teach people, whether they be children, or grown men, that their thinking is wrong. Just as we have done with racism. It is not perfect, but we are, as humans, capable of learning and growing. That is what we should strive for.

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