9Marks, Church Discipline Process, CHURCH GOVERNANCE & POLICIES, Church Governance or Policy Issues, Extra-Biblical Nonsense, John MacArthur, Spiritual Authority

Church Member Responsibility and Church Discipline at Pastor Eric Davis’ Church

Kathi

Church membership, church discipline, Pastor Eric Davis, Cornerstone Church

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Church Member Responsibility and Church Discipline According to the Cornerstone Church By-laws

mind-the-gap

-by Kathi

I recently wrote about how Julie Anne and I dared to comment on an article at The Cripplegate which subsequently caused our comments to be deleted and comments to be closed. Pastor Eric Davis provided an entirely too long explanation about how the discussion had run its course, more humbleness in being a part of God’s community was needed, and that there was too much focus on logistics. Let’s not forget that he provided the wonderful 16-point article challenging excuses for not going to church. But who’s focusing on logistics?

I was up most of the night wondering who Eric Davis is and what kind of church he runs. Here is Eric’s profile at The Cripplegate:

screenshot-2017-01-11-at-9-01-17-pm

Eric’s bio on Cornerstone Church’s site states that he holds an M.Div. from Master’s Seminary and a M.A. in Biblical Counseling from The Master’s College. It is important to note that all but one leadership team member at the church hold some type of degree from The Master’s College or Master’s Seminary. Oh, look! Cornerstone Church even shows up on The Master’s College site as a TMS Alumni Church!

While I can’t find the specific article, I remember reading something on 9Marks (or The Gospel Coalition?) about membership responsibility. What stood out then was how members who live too far away from a “good church” should move, and if members are working on Sundays that take them away from church, they should get their work schedules changed. These two points were in Eric’s post and it caused me to be suspicious that Cornerstone Church might be affiliated with 9Marks. I looked up Cornerstone Church on the 9Marks site and sure enough, they’re affiliated (Search by zip code 83001. It’s a different physical address but same web link). No surprise to me.

So now we know that we have John MacArthur taught leaders in a 9Marks affiliate church. What could their by-laws be like? Since the original post Julie Anne and I commented on was specifically about members, we’ll look at membership and church discipline at Cornerstone Church which is found in Article V of the by-laws.

How to apply for membership:

Section 4. Applications for Membership – All requests for membership shall be made to a Pastor, Elder, Deacon, or Steering Committee Member. Upon making such a request, the person shall be given an application for membership, along with a copy of the Statement of Faith contained in the Articles of Incorporation and a copy of the Bylaws. …… Each applicant shall assent to the Statement of Faith, subscribe to the Bylaws, and shall testify publicly before a duly appointed Committee of the Board, per Article VI, Section 17 of these Bylaws, at a regularly held meeting for prospective members.

Your membership may be denied:

Section 5. Denial of Membership – If, upon review of an application for membership or after meeting with a prospective member, the Board of Elders, or Steering Committee if not yet replaced by the Board of Elders, determines that the applicant does not confess Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior, or that there is a lack of evidence of a Christ-like lifestyle, membership shall be denied. The decision made by the Board, or Steering Committee if not yet replaced by the Board of Elders, shall be final and there shall be no appeal to any court from that decision.

The Board of Elders holds the power to deny your membership if they deem that you are not a true believer or if they think your lifestyle is not Christ-like enough. Forget going to court over it; their decision in final. Why bring up appealing to court over a denial for membership? Does this happen? I guess it must or, this is simply 9Marks talk to cover all bases.

How you are admitted into membership:

Section 6. Admission of Applicants – Applicants admitted to membership shall, if possible present themselves at a worship service designated by the Pastor and Board of Elders, at which service such applicants shall publicly affirm their membership commitment and be publicly acknowledged as members.

Here one stands before the congregation to acknowledge commitment to the church. Keep reading, though, . . . you’ll find that you might “stand” before the congregation for another issue – perhaps not physically, but surely in spirit.

Member responsibility:

Section 7. Responsibilities of Members – Members shall seek to exercise their spiritual gifts for the work of service to honor Jesus Christ and build up the church and shall submit to the loving shepherding of the Elders, or Steering Committee if not yet replaced by the Board of Elders.

Serve Jesus and accept loving shepherding. Now we move on to the “loving shepherding.”

Purpose of church discipline (Church Discipline is Section 8):

a.) Purpose: The purpose of church discipline is to glorify God by: 1) pursuing a sinning believer for the purpose of helping them be reconciled to God and the church (Matthew 18:12-18, 1 Corinthians 5:5, Galatians 6:1) 2) promote the holiness of Christ in the local church (1 Corinthians 5:6) 3) promote a biblical fear of God and turn away from sinning (1 Tim 5:20).

PPP – pursue, promote, promote. Honestly, it’s the pursuing that concerns me.

The process of church discipline:

b.) Process: Members of this church and all other professing Christians who regularly attend or fellowship with this church who err in doctrine, or engage in conduct that violates Scripture as determined by the Board of Elders, or Steering Committee if not yet replaced by the Board of Elders, shall be subject to church discipline including dismissal according to Matthew 18:15-18.

Say I’m a member of this church and I need to undergo church discipline. For this scenario, we’ll say I’m questioning the leadership by commenting on a blog post in regard to doctrine or church policy (because we all know that would happen):

First, someone who knows about my sinful conduct should come alongside me to warn and provide correction. If I do not repent, then the next step would be for the warning individual to find one or two other people who agree with my sinful nature. Those individuals would also provide warning and correction. But, I’m stubborn and I still do not repent.

My continued stubbornness causes the elders to investigate the matter. If they are able to determine that, yes, I am sinful in my questioning and that I have been warned but did not repent, then:

(b. iii.)…the Board of Elders, shall inform the church and the congregation thereof at a regularly scheduled worship service in order that the church may come alongside the erring individual to call them to repentance and restoration.

Yes, airing my sinful nature during a worship service would totally signify to me that they are walking along my side. Say I still do not repent, even after public rebuke. Now I am publicly dismissed from the church during a regular worship service. The elders can choose to bypass the first two steps and go straight to the congregation if I publicly refuse to repent, disseminate “doctrine deemed false or erroneous by the elders” or if I disregard two warnings.

But here’s the real kicker:

d.) The members of this church, and all other professing Christians who regularly attend or fellowship with this church, agree that there shall be no appeal to any court because of the dismissal or because of public statements to the congregation at the third or fourth stages of church discipline. Members who are under discipline by the church, as defined in the previous paragraphs, forfeit and waive the right to resign from this church. Resignations from membership are possible only by members who are in good standing and who are not under any disciplinary action.

Did you catch that? You cannot appeal this decision or any statements made publicly in a court. The only recourse you have is to appeal to the elders. If you are under church discipline, you “waive your right to resign from this church.” WHAT??!! With the expectation of members fully adhering to the leadership and the process of church discipline, is it any wonder that Eric Davis has opinions about the reasons people give for not going to church?

I did not see anything that states that members need to sign a membership agreement, but I would venture to guess that this happens. Don’t do it folks! You are only giving written permission for this leadership to call you out for what they deem as conduct that “violates Scripture.”

I’m sure that includes asking questions.

238 thoughts on “Church Member Responsibility and Church Discipline at Pastor Eric Davis’ Church”

  1. ” If you are under church discipline, you “waive your right to resign from this church.” WHAT??!”

    This is totally illegal in the United States. People may disassociate from a voluntary organization anytime they please. If the church pursues them, they may find themselves on the wrong side of a civil harassment lawsuit.

    Be sure to resign in writing, state you do not wish to be contacted and that any public discussion of your decision could result in legal action. Make sure you send it certified mail and keep the receipt.

    Heritage Bible Chapel tried this with Marie Notcheva at our blog and after legal threats, they finally released her from membership. You can read about a court case that set the precedent in this area in this post.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/12/19/did-southern-baptist-and-southeastern-baptist-theological-seminaries-replicate-a-hotel-california-at-heritage-bible-chapel-in-princeton-ma/

    So, this church is telling people that the church leaders will behave illegally if they will not let them resign? Good night!What are they teaching in seminaries these days?

    Liked by 5 people

  3. Dee – It’s ludicrous that this church thinks that people cannot leave on their own free will. Attending church is a voluntary action, therefore people may leave at any time and for any reason. Thank you for linking your excellent post!

    Liked by 1 person

  4. There is nothing in Scripture that requires church membership. We are all members of the body of Christ. Nor will we find in Scripture an “application for membership” process or the bizarre notion that a church member “waives the right to resign” from a congregation such as described here. This church’s membership tripe reeks of cult-style control.

    When church structure begins with a falsehood, everything that proceeds from it merely multiplies the falsehood – and the cruel kind of spiritual bondage that comes with it. Sadly, there are many churches that operate from a similar framework.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. This public process includes regular attenders TOO! Not just members who are at least presumably aware of the process! wow.

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  6. Dee, THANK YOU!!

    Now Eric, we all know you’re reading this right now—come on—you know you want to comment here!

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  7. I don’t blame Eric if he doesn’t want to comment here. What I would love for him to do is think about the issue of control and see how much control Jesus used over people. I would like to challenge him into asking himself why he has the need for so much control over his congregation, and has he considered the harm that could befall someone when they feel like they are being spiritually abused?

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Trading in the Holy Spirit for the Thought Police- a sad, unwise and unChristlike decision and one that is most likely to end badly if you are one who “studies to show himself approved” and are capable of thought and reasoning of your own.

    Don’t the prospective members realize how one sided these membership covenants are? They treat it like an exclusive club that you are lucky to get into, but stop and look at it hard. There are all of these responsibilities for members and punishments if they step out of line, but what about the leaders? What rules must the leaders live up to? Who decides if they are meeting them or not? Where do you report a leader that is out of line? Who holds them accountable? What are the results for them if they fail? What punishments will they receive if/when they act in bad faith? And while we are at it, do members have the right to know what the leaders are receiving financially? Do they have the right to see the books at any time? Do they have the right to know what their tithes and offerings are being used for?

    Stop and think, prospective member, if the powers that be are unhappy with anything you do or say, you will end up being humiliated at a public meeting and you will be shunned by all the church attenders. Before you invest yourself in friendships with your fellow attenders, be very aware that you will be deserted by all on one word from the leadership. They will turn their backs on you when you see them in the grocery store. The friends your children have made in church will do the same to them. You will have no opportunity to give your side of the situation. Think very hard. What do you have to gain by signing this contract that God has not already freely promised you?

    The fear of man is a snare. The respect that God is due does not belong to a board of elders- human beings with hearts that are just as deceitful as every other man’s. They may seem like very nice people but they are commonly called “yes men” for a reason.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. I remember reading something a while back that was a type of church covenant for ministers to come under the covering of a major Christian organization. This was more of a type of ordination covenant.

    What really shocked me is that part of the agreement was that you were supposed to have counseling sessions with the head apostle and confess your darkest secrets to him but he didn’t owe any obligation of confidentiality like a licensed counselor would. Under his discretion he could reveal any of your private info to anyone in the name of accountability.

    Good grief, not even the IRS would do that to you!

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  10. Yeah, that’s pretty typical in conservative churches. The “fear” is that members who see that they are going to get excommunicated are going to hop to another church and claim that they are Christians in good standing.

    I think there IS a need to protect the flock from wolves who hop from church to church, but I don’t know if this mechanism is any good. In fact, I know of an abuser who transferred out of a church (under discipline), and the receiving church put him on probation for a year and after that, clean slate! His victim, not so lucky.

    Here’s the most compelling teaching I’ve found on church membership: As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.” (John 6 66-68)

    I think it’s the churches that DON’T have the words of eternal life that are so single-mindedly focused on guilting and brow-beating people into membership. If people want to leave, let them leave. It’s the toxic people who want to stay and spread their poison we’re supposed to be concerned about.

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  11. Shall we look at what the Elders/leadership will do for the members and who will hold them accountable? The other leaders and if a member disagrees with a leader or maybe points out a kid is being abused etc. What will the leadership do to said member?

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  12. The church constitution, bylaws and membership agreements are standard 9MARKS and don’t surprise me in the least. I do find it hilarious that someone is ignorant enough to put ” there will be no appeal to a court of law” in a membership agreement. If they think that little clause is going to stop litigation brought by a excommunicated person that is alleging defamation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, harassment, malpractice (yes pastors can be sued for this, especially if they counsel), they are quite misinformed and delusional. A judge is not going to grant a summary motion for dismissal on the basis of that clause. Churches have been fed this foolish theory of ” implied consent ” (signed membership covenant) being an affirmative defense for the above enumerated torts by these christian legal adviser types. Unfortunately most of these idiots are NOT litigators and they dispense lots of horrible advice that a seasoned trial attorney would cut through in nothing flat.

    Eventually a jury would probably be hearing the case regardless of Mark Dever’s “brilliant ” membership covenant clause, and the typical jury would be thinking JIM JONES / Georgetown Guyana kool aid club the whole time. The court would see the membership covenant as a contract without CONSIDERATION and toss it in like 3.6 seconds. Frankly I think I could win any case against a 9Marks church by simply reading their church documents to the jury. These folks like Mark Dever are always around their own little fun-bunch and really think they have a lot of credibility due to their self imposed isolation in their own little world of likeminded. Wake up call for you 9Marky MARKs types I could destroy you in court with your own documents. There is no such thing as signing away your RIGHT to judicial review in a contract with NO CONSIDERATION, before the tort even occurs. This is so laughable its beyond comprehension that any adult would be so dumb as to put a clause like that in a membership contract.

    If I was a 9Marks church, I would be getting better legal counsel. Maybe have a competent attorney read your insurance policy and explain that you are not covered for intentional torts. Maybe have it explained to you that the insurance company may defend you in court, but not in all cases cover the actual judgment.

    To anyone practicing law in the DC area that comes across this in the future while doing research (like if you are representing someone in a case against a certain 9Marks church). Capital Hill Baptist church where Mark Dever is the pastor would make an excellent target. In the 1800s the church bought up several blocks of townhomes around the church. This real estate is now worth millions and millions. Take the case to trial and shear the shrubs. You will be doing a great service to the Body of Christ.

    Liked by 4 people

  13. This sounds like the Vatican.
    As if this church is its own government.

    I briefly went to a church with a Pastor who was a Masters grad. He dealt with the congregation like a dictator. I don’t think Masters has any control over how their grads will run their churches.
    Many men are now going to seminary as a career choice.Not a calling.
    Another Pastor expected to see everyone twice on Sunday and criticized those who showed up in the morning, for not returning at 6. He said that church was more important than football.
    Sunday is his work day. Sunday is our day of rest.
    He can play golf on his days off but he expected us in church all day on our day off.
    He publicly criticized those who were not members. He would bring people up who were going to be members and praise them saying they were obedient. (as if those who were not members are not)
    The goal was to make members.
    My membership is with Christ as I was baptized IN Christ (not a church).

    Liked by 3 people

  14. Scott: “This is so laughable its beyond comprehension that any adult would be so dumb as to put a clause like that in a membership contract.”

    Unfortunately, people are blinded by their own fleshly desires.
    They have established social interaction, sometimes kids attending the school, financial investments, climbing the ladder to leadership levels, etc.
    People will still attend a church even if their Pastor falls, and the men who protected him are proved incompetent leadership.. if their flesh is being fed.

    Doctrine isn’t even important as it divides people, so lets all agree to disagree and get along..

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  15. Brian, “Shall we look at what the Elders/leadership will do for the members and who will hold them accountable?”

    That’s a novel thought, but that doesn’t happen because of fear. I left a small church where a manipulative couple controls everything. I personally know four families that walked out the door fed up with that manipulation, and there others who left I can only presume for the same reasons. I talked with a leader who acknowledged that it was a problem and that the leadership was handling it, yet three of those four families left at least a year after that conversation, and there has never been any public statement, public discipline or anything suggesting this couple has done anything wrong since.

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  17. From Dee,

    This is totally illegal in the United States. People may disassociate from a voluntary organization anytime they please. If the church pursues them, they may find themselves on the wrong side of a civil harassment lawsuit.

    As HUG has often quoted:

    “Somebody some day will say ‘this is illegal.’ By then be sure [we] say what is legal or not.”
    — founder of some sci-fi pseudo-psychology cult

    It seems, though, that Dever, Leeman — and now Eric Davis — have tipped their hand a bit too soon.

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  20. From your marriage prep form:

    Do NOT talk to each other about your answers until after you have each filled out your own questionnaire.

    And then the very most important thing to them, listed first, is gender roles and submission and leadership. Ugh. Pass!

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  21. Oh and Nancy, they ask the woman about her fears for learning to submit, and the man for learning to lead. NOT A BLESSED THING about loving your wife, which men are actually called to do. Sheesh.

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  23. “I recommend having a judge perform the ceremony!”

    Exactly! I know of a young couple who never really caught on to how controlling their church was until they sought to be married there.

    They ended up at a tiny old Episcopalian stone church that gave them a list of rules on decorating and fees. That was it. The setting was right out of Jane Austin. It was perfect.

    They joked about their former church recognizing their marriage because they did not do the intense pre marriage counseling and fill out the life story packets.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. I know of a young couple who never really caught on to how controlling their church was until they sought to be married there.

    I was reading the form and thinking through snarky responses, including ‘NA’, Nonya business, etc. But I would have stopped at the four questions about submitting that came first. The rest was also massively over the top.

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  25. I’m sorry, that form….That needs to be its own post because wow.

    Right? Why do they need a detailed description of one’s sexual history? That’s not a bit creepy.

    NOT A BLESSED THING about loving your wife

    The word “love” only appears once, and it’s on the last page asking “what do you intend to do to stay in love?” My answer: “find a different church.”

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  26. Why do they need a detailed description of one’s sexual history? That’s not a bit creepy.

    Did you read the categories??? numerous, rare, destructive, abusive? I honestly don’t even know how to answer some of these questions.

    So the first category is gender roles and submission, the next is ‘sin, idolatry and stress’? Then they couple a whole bunch of things ranging from rape to anxiety, to adhd under ‘struggles, sickness or sins’!

    And I’m not even sure what being intellectually ‘mature or immature’ is supposed to mean.

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  27. Nancy2, I nearly broke my favorite broom!

    “Mark Dever, Johnathan Leeman, Kevin DeYoung, John MacArthur, Martha Peace, Paul Tripp.”

    Hal-luh-loo-ya, all those false teachers in a row! Good heavens!

    BeenThereDoneThat calls the form creepy; I call it cult-like AND creepy and nowhere-to-be-found-in-an-indoctrinated-free Bible. I have often asked, “What will it take for people to wake up to this movement?”

    What? Mass destruction? (Well…)

    Yes, Lea, this lot is more concerned ’bout submission than anything else. Love your wife? I beg your authoritative, submissive pardon; ma’am, but that ain’t gonna happen.

    This post has ruined my day. Right now, I feel like feeding ’em swines some old-fashioned Hypocrite Pie with some sour gravy to go with it.

    And the gospel according to Jesus.

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  28. “I was reading the form and thinking through snarky responses, including ‘NA’, Nonya business, etc. But I would have stopped at the four questions about submitting that came first. The rest was also massively over the top.”

    Lea, they even ask for the parents’ political affiliation, as well as whether the couple plans to merge their bank accounts after the wedding: if the answer is “No”, please explain why.

    They call Cornerstone “a house of God”?

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  29. Nancy the whole thing was just bonkers. I think finances is one area where it would be helpful to talk about what you plan to do, but it was clear they had the ‘right’ answers in mind.

    I was also put off by ranking you and your fiancé on all these weird things, and that they wanted you to put M or W. I think I would ignore those instructions if I did this because it seems weird and use Names/initials. For some reason I was really put off by the genericness of that!

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  30. If only Pastor Eric actually followed the Scriptures.

    There is not ONE person in the New Testament who has the title of ‘Pastor’ (except Jesus our Lord).

    There is not ONE command from Jesus or anyone else to build buildings for religious meetings (wrongly called ‘church’).

    Pastor Eric is no pastor.

    He is a HIRELING and he does not care about Jesus’ sheep.

    Pastor Eric needs to humble himself.

    Liked by 2 people

  31. “they even ask for the parents’ political affiliation, as well as whether the couple plans to merge their bank accounts after the wedding: if the answer is “No”, please explain why.”

    How much you wanna bet the big cheese’s have financial planners. And I have been around enough to know how they play the “put it in the wife’s name” game when convenient.

    I cracked up over political affiliation. A few elections ago many of them could not vote for a Mormon. The past one they were promoting the unknown Mormon who was not on the ballot in all states. Go figure.

    Liked by 1 person

  32. Lydia, this guy seems small time, he’s probably just running with Dave Ramsey’s ‘you must have your bank account coupled/you must buy used cars’ style advice.

    People at different life stages/family situations are going to have different choices.

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  34. I wrote out this New Improved Version (NIV) of a 9Marx article a few months back. With this church wanting to discipline non-members who might “fellowship” with them, I thought you folks might enjoy.

    My version follows:
    7 Ways You’re Just Like the Heathen If You Don’t Sign Our Membership Covenant
    Definitions:
    We/us/our= 9 Marxist key-holders and turf-owners
    You= Christian(s) who love(s) Jesus and his church but won’t “join” our club
    He/him= Unbelieving heathen-type person, male or female
    (BTW, We value both you and him primarily as prospective members.)
    1: We can’t trust either you or him to rightly represent the “church” by serving in ways like playing church music or working in the nursery.
    2: You’re both likely persecute us, the representatives of Christ.
    3: You’re both unrepentant, no matter how long you’ve attended a church.
    4: We have our reputation to uphold! If we allow false professors and hypocrites like you and him to publicly identify with or go representing us, onlookers will be wrongly informed about what Christ is like. Then how can sinners learn that Christ is gracious and loving?
    5: How can we convince him to sign up and join if we can’t convince you?
    6: He won’t decide to repent if he’s not confronted with the inside and outside of God’s love, which won’t happen if we let you “serve”.
    7: You’re just a nominal Christian (as he may also be) if you stubbornly refuse to be accountable to us. We hope you’ll get frustrated and go elsewhere– to some unhealthy church, perhaps.
    Bottom line:
    “Yes, other churches might accept them (you) on those terms, but each of us are to be faithful to God for our own turf, not someone else’s.”

    Liked by 1 person

  35. Who the hell do these elders think they are as it relates to others–God!!
    I would never place myself under discipline in any church based upon my experience with church leaders.

    Liked by 2 people

  36. From what I have seen “church discipline” is used many times as a way for leaders to control church members vs. keeping the body of Christ pure as they like to claim its purpose is for. Thus many times just the threat is enough to keep people quiet and not question things that aren’t right.

    What you rarely see is churches imposing “church discipline” on church leaders even when their sin is egregious. Sadly it is another one of those rules that they feel apply only to regular church members and not leaders.

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  37. “If, upon review of an application for membership or after meeting with a prospective member, the Board of Elders, or Steering Committee if not yet replaced by the Board of Elders, determines that the applicant does not confess Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior, or that there is a lack of evidence of a Christ-like lifestyle, membership shall be denied.”

    So this group determines whether the person is a believer or not? What does this “lifestyle” and “evidence” look like? Does it entail following all their rules in order to be accepted into this group?

    It looks like they are adding things on to the Gospel, weighing people down with unnecessary burdens.

    Imagine those poor folk who don’t quite make the cut, who get denied. They probably really want to be accepted and now? Are they even saved? How sad that they would allow men to judge their authenticity in following Jesus.

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  39. Who needs church bylaws for our beloved ” anointed leaders” when we have Google reviews. 😋

    The world has changed. The stuff the scum of yesterday ( Bill Gothard,Lester Roloff, and Jack Hyles for example ) could get away with as there was no easy way to expose them broadly just won’t fly today. We will expose them at every turn , shine the spotlight off God’s Word on their evil and where necessary dilute their effluence , destroy their organuzations and churches. Then with true care and concern for our brothers & sisters come along side them and protect them from the wolves seeking money and power through the church.

    I’m personally setting aside some of the funds that I used to give to a local church for recovery & protection of my brothers and sisters that have been injured and need help. Whether that is contributing to the cost of a qualified counselor or seeing that a victim has legal counsel Count me in ! Many of us over time have contributed enormous sums to organizations that have and are abusing the flock. Part of my repentance being very careful to never doing that again and fund the fight.

    If these 9Marks clowns think it’s them against their single target standing alone and without an attorney, they are in for a shock. We will gofundme an attorney for their victim literally overnight.

    Welcome to the internet boys, your gig is up and we aren’t backing down. We are in this for the long haul.

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  40. Hi 👋 to Scott.

    The time is up charlatans.

    The people are starting to wake up and see what’s going on.

    Jesus said there would be wolves. He warned many times. Paul also warned against false teachers.

    We need to pray for wisdom and discernment. Hands and knees type prayers.

    God hears. He cares.

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  41. In most institutional churches that I have had the pleasure of attending, there are two distinct church by-laws, one for the clergy and leadership system, and the other for the laity. This is disturbing to me, since the leadership system freely forgives itself and moves on leading and lording it over the sheep.

    However, if a member of the laity class sins, they are forever reminded of their sin, preached against from the pastor using the pulpit as his weapon (the pastor man never names a name, but we all know who he is speaking of), and the laity member becomes “marked” as someone who will never be voted into a leadership position because their sins are always remembered and thus, never forgiven by those who deem themselves as important vessels of religion/Christianity.

    So in effect, church by-laws mean nothing to me as a born again believer and follower of Jesus Christ, for they are never followed to the “T” by leadership. I also believe that churches should be honest and truthful up front, and state to those coming in their doors, that they in fact, apply church by-laws differently between the clergy and laity so the unsuspecting believers seeking truth through the very Word of God, are forewarned.

    So what then, are the ‘by-laws’ of our LORD Jesus, the Christ?

    Liked by 1 person

  42. For further reading pleasure, or displeasure….

    I had the pleasure of attending an elder led, charismatic senior and associate pastor led Pentecostal church for a time, believing this church knew Jesus BETTER than all of those other denominational churches I had attended in the past. On one given Sunday, I was love bombed by an elder and the senior pastor showing a genuine (???) interest in me as a human being. During our brief conversation, I said that I had to go home and work that afternoon for I had a client that needed their project finished for an upcoming event. That led to a tsunami of condemnation by these holy men……”What, you work on Sundays?” said the charismatic pastor man. “Oh, are you sure you need to work on Sunday, for what we do on a Sunday, we usually have to re-do on a Monday to correct the mistakes we made on the Lord’s day,” said the elder man. I was being rebuked, corrected, and made to feel like a horrible, terrible individual for daring to ‘work’ on a Sunday.

    Many years later, the elder suffered a stroke and had to be hospitalized for a long period of time. My heart still goes out to this legalistic elder man as I feel sorry for him experiencing suffering. I couldn’t help but wonder though, if he “corrected, rebuked,” and made all of those saints working in the hospitals “ON A SUNDAY” to give him the necessary care in helping him heal, to feel “like nothings.”

    Did this important religious man make those saints, doing the work of our LORD on a Sunday no less, feel like lower laity dogs, as he did to me on that given Sunday? Or did they receive a pardon?

    Pride lords it over, while brokenness freely forgives, does it not? And I also often wonder if these pastor/elder men criticize and condemn their wives for making the family meals on a “Sunday,” laboring in love in their kitchens. And at the end of time, will Jesus rebuke those of us who dared to work on a Sunday, on that day of His Second Coming?

    No longer listen to the voices of the lord it over types and shadows of a religion that presents itself as Christianity, but to the voice of Jesus Himself, through His Word…..His yoke is easy and His burdens are light.

    Liked by 1 person

  43. In case anyones interested…

    Cripplegate has another typical Neo-cal post…

    http://thecripplegate.com/dealing-with-sin-in-the-church/

    “Dealing with Sin in the Church”
    by Mike Riccardi

    Using, wrongly IMO…
    Mat 18:15-17, as “church discipline.”
    And “excommunication.”

    Mike Riccardi, blasted my challenge pretty well…
    It was quite a lengthy reply.
    This guy has his arguments together.

    He did a history check on A. Amos Love…
    And my thoughts on Heb 13:17…

    And, Mike, ended with a threat to ban me…

    “we will not continue to publish your comments, as we have no obligation to give a platform for your errors.”

    BUT… He must be in the pulpit this morning… 🙂
    Because, three new comments about why Mat 18…
    Is NOT about “church discipline,” and “excommunication,”

    Are now on the Cripplegate site…

    At least for a little while… 🙂

    Like

  44. What, you work on Sundays?” said the charismatic pastor man.

    Did you shame him for working on sunday too 🙂

    He did a history check on A. Amos Love…

    I think it’s fascinating that they won’t accept people and what they said at face value and engage with it. They have to know your ‘history’.

    Like

  45. So let me get this right. For a tradition that prides itself as the vanguard of The Sufficiency Of Scripture, why would it saddle itself with church bylaws and rules? Why can’t they just say, “we follow the Bible,” and shut up and just follow the Bible? Is Scripture not sufficient?

    Liked by 1 person

  46. A. Amos Love,

    Re: Article by Riccardi (John MacArthur-trained pastor)

    This “sin-sniffing” is typical of Master’s Seminary and John MacArthur-trained pastors. Even lay leaders trained by this group are toxic: judgmental, arrogant, and disrespectful. They don’t seem anything like Jesus.

    They infected my home church and the pastor stood by, helpless to stop them because they are so manipulative. He became a puppet pastor in their hands.

    My daughter has a friend who attends Grace Community, and has noticed the life go out of her eyes. We’ve been trying to get her out before all the love in her soul is destroyed by legalism.

    Master’s Seminary//Grace Community share a lot of with Jehovah’s Witnesses in tone, although not in doctrine: God loves you if you are obedient to him. You are lucky to be his slave. Be a good slave and follow every rule to keep in His good graces.

    I left my home church and found a happier, healthier, more loving church.

    Liked by 1 person

  47. Surprize – Suprize – Surprize

    Three comments “posted” at Cripplegate, Sunday…

    Three comments “deleted” at Cripplegate, Monday…

    Like

  48. Dear Anonymous2,

    I will be praying for your daughter’s friend who is attending the double edged sword of legalism/a mask of visible Christianity, for the love and ways of Jesus are greater that any educational system that poses as Christ followers. And you are correct, legalism by religious zealots WILL suck the life blood out of any person who desires to follow Jesus and share His Word, His Ways, and His love with another human being who desperately needs to hear about Christ. There is a Proverb worth mentioning that I hold dear in my heart and quote often to myself when encountering that religious man or woman who believes I am the scum of the earth because I go to the Scriptures for the answers of life; and it goes like this: “Guard your heart with due diligence, for from it flows the springs of life.” Praying our LORD will guard your daughter’s dear friend’s heart so it does not become completely hardened by those who profess to know a jesus.

    So happy and thankful you found a Body of Believers to share your life with and too also share their lives with you in love; and a true love of Jesus Christ. God, the Holy Spirit, still lives and is active and moving within His Body!

    A. Amos Love,
    Dear brother in Christ, I so appreciate all of the Scriptural references here regarding the truth of His Ekklesia for the testimony of those Scriptures encourage me to no end. Thank-you! I am reminded once again of Jesus’ Ways, for when he called out those folks in the Bible as “you brood of vipers, you hypocrites, you white washed tombs, etc.,” He wasn’t addressing your average, everyday sinner sitting in the pew; Jesus was calling out the “religious leaders of His day” and their hardened hearts for the lost. These important religious leaders of His day made themselves to appear important, not only in physical appearances, but also with grand swelling words to impress the lower caste/average man. It is no wonder that although the costumes have changed a bit (don’t see too many men wearing robes and sandals in the tractor these days), the heartless men and women to lead most churches in the form of titles/self aggrandizement, still remains to this day.

    It is comforting to me, when reading, studying and meditating upon God’s Word, that Jesus chose your average, working every day man, to be His disciples and learn from Him, the Master, directly. And one of the only ‘holy men’ that became an Apostle, was Saul, an educated/studied/highly intelligent rabbi, who actually persecuted born again Christ followers. And we know that Jesus directly, humbled this man on the Damascus road and revealed Himself to Saul, renamed Paul, in order for him to be useful in sharing Christ Jesus with that part of the world.

    To date, I personally have never witnessed a pastor man/woman, or anyone holding a titled position in the institutional church, revealing their brokenness or showing public repentance; it doesn’t exist in the visible church where pride, all knowing ‘rightness,’ and excessive monitoring and rebuking/correcting reign supreme. So I keep asking myself this question over and over, “Exactly, what does Biblical humility look like; the kind of humility Jesus exhibited as He went to that tree for the remission of my/our sins?” I just don’t see or experience that type of humility in love, in the churches I have attended…..nor a love for the lost, the poor, the sick and suffering, the widows, the orphans, or the divorced woman who needs help paying the bills on a monthly basis…….the church needs a bigger sound system to fund you know, so the needs of the least of these are cast aside. BLEH!

    I attended a conservative, charismatic church for a time, where it was the job of the elders, deacons and deaconesses, to “come along side” of the new families entering their church. When I asked one of the deaconesses “is it your job to assign yourselves to the new families and befriend them, so you can learn of their beliefs and their families ways, then REPORT back to the church board (in which the pastor holds a key position)? And her answer was a resounding, sheepish “YES.” So in part, church leadership’s jobs are to be the spy’s, the eyes and ears of the pastor/leadership in sifting out those who do not worship them, abide by their ways/teaching, and to rebuke/correct/condemn/cast aside all those who do not bow down to the golden calf of “LEADERSHIP.”

    At least that woman was honest with me when I became suspicious of that charismatic pastor man’s claim to be speaking for God, the Holy Spirit, when if fact he was being ‘fed’ by the church ‘spies.’ It is no wonder when this pastor man was caught in sexual sin, that the chuck wagons of leadership circled around him and voted to ‘reinstate’ him after a short period of ‘counseling.’ The pastor received a free pass, all the while his sermons were abusive, even calling women “jezebels” when they didn’t follow and swoon over his church and his teachings.

    Again, I believe the church by-laws are different for the pastor/leadership system than they are for the lower laity caste system and there is no doubt, this system grieves Jesus Christ to no end. No doubt.

    Liked by 1 person

  49. Katy,
    Thanks for your kind words and encouragement.

    I am chilled by your story of “spying for the pastors” under the guise of getting to know new people at the church.

    Sick, sick, sick.

    It’s important to remember that Christians can attend any church they wish… and even 2-3 people gathered together are a church.

    We don’t have to agree with the pastor on every point. God speaks to us directly, and we don’t have to “buy” their interpretation of Scripture.

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  50. There are all of these responsibilities for members and punishments if they step out of line, but what about the leaders? What rules must the leaders live up to?

    Only the Law of Thelema:

    “Do What Thou Wilt — that is the whole of the Law.”
    — Aliester Crowley

    Like

  51. Honestly, I feel that going to church is a good thing. There are reasons one should miss church, but I did not go to church for a a month or two once and it felt weird. If someone didn’t go to church, then I wouldn’t make them feel like they weren’t a believer at all. Some of the strongest Christians I know don’t attended church a lot because they are nurses and their jobs require them to work on Sunday’s. However, some of the people I knew who went to church every Sunday were never the nicest.

    However, I do feel for me atleast I do enjoy church, and when I’m not there I do miss it. Also, I am now getting involved with a small group and can’t wait to have our first meeting. I mean, I’m sure others feel that they don’t need to go to church, but I want to go. I honestly blessed when I’m there.

    Like

  52. All, I just wanted to let you know that I have started back at school full-time, so please be patient with me on posts/moderation, etc. I sure am thankful for Kathi filling in the gap with her excellent posts.

    Also, I still have the 4th article in the Tullian Tchividjian series to post, and Brad also has 5 articles as well. I’ve been waiting to hear back from an important source to make sure I am giving credible information; however, they were out of the office over the holidays and now I have a scheduled phone call soon. Thanks for your patience. ~ja

    Like

  53. I meet with some men who are interested in discipling. We are working though a book that talks about methods of learning. It focuses on three main forms. Lecture, apprenticeship, and immersion. The author points to the modern church as being really good at lecture, but overall pretty bad at apprenticeship and immersion.

    I think that’s why people like Salty are justly upset with the modern church model. It’s like paying tuition to go to school, where people are perpetually in the classroom, but never learn how to DO anything.

    I was frustrated at a past church that was very much like this. It was all teaching and no action. When we were looking for a new pastor, I tried to encourage the people towards a pastor who was DOING. That was not popular, because the doers weren’t the eloquent ear-ticklers they were used to and desired.

    Like

  54. I am chilled by your story of “spying for the pastors” under the guise of getting to know new people at the church.

    It’s really creepy isn’t it? The saddest thing is that it would make you doubt all interactions with people at church.

    I mean, I’m sure others feel that they don’t need to go to church, but I want to go. I honestly blessed when I’m there.

    I don’t think anyone is trying to encourage you not to go, Vicki. It’s just this overly restrictive list that we are criticizing. People are adults. I don’t need a note when I stay home sick from work, and I don’t need one for church.

    Like

  55. I’d like to say something good about pastor Eric! He is right to set out the conditions of membership, and right that they include church discipline. You know where you stand, and that is a good thing.

    Most of my Christian life has been spent in churches that exercised little of even no church discipline at all. This is no better than making it a kind of legal (or legalistic) process that has to be followed, and which I suspect is an overreaction to the absence of dscipline in so many churches.

    The membership conditions as reported here mean I could never join a church like this. The sheer legalism of it for one thing – going beyond trying to ensure that members really are Christians and not faking it with religion. I can’t relate to all these by-laws, I cannot imagine for one moment the church under apostolic direction had them. I’ll sign a membership covenant quite happily the day someone can show me this is in, and required by, the new testament itself.

    Ensuring some unity of doctrine is not bad, but with so many competing views and levels of maturity and understanding, this could all too easily become a means of suppressing dissenting opinion if the elders happen to get something wrong or have pet topics – or God blesses you with something he hasn’t given them. Unity in basics yes, but charity over all the various doctrinal ‘isms’. I am also wary of ‘submission to loving shepherding’ being a conditon of membership without a corresponding commitment on the part of the shepherds to the sheep.

    Like

  56. How many here, have attended a church where the ‘by-law’ apply EQUALLY to the leadership as well as the laity?

    I, personally, have never met such a system in the natural and grieve to no end when I see the “specialness” of certain individuals who desire to be first, who desire the attention of the masses (human worship), and who desire to use our faith in Jesus Christ, as a way and means for their living/lifestyle. Then turn around and ‘share’ with us lower laity folks that;

    “we need to die to self” because the leadership isn’t seeing us “dying enough.”

    I have discovered that when a believer truly desires to “die to self” and serve our LORD Jesus, the first battalion of opposition comes not from all of those unbelievers out there….oh no, they ususally leave a guy/gal alone……..the greatest and harshest opposition come from those within the c’hurch who believe themselves to be more religious than the rest of us. And these church folks will use every weapon possible to work against God, the Holy Spirit, working and moving within the individual soul.

    And why is this…..it is in part, because they want to receive all of the glory, praise and honor for being the enlightened ones in teaching, instructing, shepherding, or ‘mentoring’ those doing the work of our LORD. Man secretly desires to ‘name and claim it’ for Himself, meanwhile the Name of Jesus is left behind.

    Like

  57. Hey Mark,

    “I think that’s why people like Salty are justly upset with the modern church model”.

    Mark, I don’t believe that the ‘church’ means ‘the assembly of believers’. I believe that the ekklesia means the ‘called out ones’, regardless of whether they assemble or not.

    When I look at the modern church system (which is modelled from Roman Catholicism) I see spiritual idolatry.

    The Lord knows who are his and I believe many of his people are caught up in this ‘thing’ called ‘church’ which is not the same ekklesia Jesus is building.

    When you slowly go through every reference to Ekklesia in the NT and not assume your definition is correct your eyes open to what the ‘church’ ekklesia is and is not.

    My other half said recently, “well, how are we supposed to DO this thing?”.

    I said, “we’re not”.

    Ekklesia is not a ‘thing’ to ‘do’.

    God is calling out his people and tasking them to share his love and message to the world. When and if people respond then they’re out responsibility not some institution we pay money to for dealing with the problem of new converts.

    I believe the entire church system called Christianity is toxic and believers need to withdraw themselves from it. I believe we need to get on our hands and knees and seek the Lord. Daily.

    When we give ourselves wholly to the Lord and seek the love our neighbours and colleagues then ‘Christ in us’ happens. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.

    We are not called to religious meetings.

    We are called to go out into the world and invite people to the wedding.

    Look at the early church and compare it to Christianity.

    Something is desperately wrong and many believers are waking up.

    Seek the Lord.

    Liked by 1 person

  58. I haven’t read all the comments yet so perhaps someone already said what I noticed in those by-laws under “discipline.” It’s not only members that can be disciplines and excommuicated, but also those who regularly attend and haven’t agreed to the membership covenant/contract. Now that is Control Freakery on steroids. Who in the world would want to join this church? Who would willingly walk into a prison with bars and armed guards? 9Marxist churches are very much like prisons. Your freedoms could very much be likened to living in a 9 x 12 cell with 3 squares a day and supervised visits.

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  59. After reading the 9Marxist answer to: “Must someone be a church member before being allowed to serve?” – I think we need to inform Pastor Eric that disciplining regular attendees who are not members could get him into Hot Water. If non-members don’t have privileges to serve, as the 9Marx folks teach, then likewise they don’t deserve being disciplined. Furthermore, that could get Cornerstone Church into legal problems. How can they discipline people who don’t even agree to the terms laid out in their by-laws because they’ve chosen NOT to be members?

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  60. Salty, I don’t know how you can read Acts and not see at least some structure. I won’t argue that the structure is what we have today, which I think tends to be idolatrous, but even in a simple passage like this: (here are parts from Acts 20)

    On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

    Here, “we” “gathered” to “break break”. Does that not strongly suggest some sort of assembly of saints?

    From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church.

    Here, “church” must represent something specific, not all ‘called out ones’. This “church” had elders – people who were somehow recognized to have some sort of position.

    Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

    If there is no way to discern the flock, how do we figure out who those shepherds are? We can’t simply rely on the Holy Spirit to put halos on the right people. Even Nicolas (Acts 6), chosen by the people and ordained by the Apostles themselves was a wolf.

    Like

  61. Hey Mark,

    “Mark on January 18, 2017 at 3:05 PM
    Salty, I don’t know how you can read Acts and not see at least some structure. I won’t argue that the structure is what we have today, which I think tends to be idolatrous, but even in a simple passage like this: (here are parts from Acts 20)

    Mark, I’ve sat at my computer many times looking carefully at the Ekklesia passages. The believers gathered for fellowship from ‘house to house’. They broke bread and prayed together. Given they didn’t have internet and telephone my guess is they simply met for fellowship, food and prayer. 😜

    “On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

    Here, “we” “gathered” to “break break”. Does that not strongly suggest some sort of assembly of saints?”

    Yes, the ekklesia gathered. Believers met for fellowship. This is not a ‘religious meeting’ facilitated by a salaried leadership team. Believers hung out and encouraged one another. But this is not ‘church’ as the ‘church’ ekklesia are the people.

    From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church.

    Here, “church” must represent something specific, not all ‘called out ones’. This “church” had elders – people who were somehow recognized to have some sort of position.

    Mark, the ‘church’ literally means called out ones. The ‘church’ here is not a place or meeting or event it’s the people of God. The people of God had elders amongst them. Elder simply means ‘aged person’. The believers met from house to house. There was no requirement for old people ‘elders’ to babysit their fellowship gatherings.

    “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

    If there is no way to discern the flock, how do we figure out who those shepherds are? We can’t simply rely on the Holy Spirit to put halos on the right people. Even Nicolas (Acts 6), chosen by the people and ordained by the Apostles themselves was a wolf.”

    Mark, the believers met in homes for simple fellowship. There were no ‘church buildings’ and no salaried religious professionals. You need to take the Ecclesiastical blinkers off.

    It’s been 3 years since I left the institutional ‘church’ and I have ‘elders’ in my life who ‘oversee/shepherd’ as required. I meet believers weekly in my home for fellowship.

    What I do now is closer to NT fellowship ‘ie: biblical if you wish to vomit in your mouth’ than what the institutions facilitate.

    Plus it’s cheaper. 😊

    I’m not in anyway saying the believers did not fellowship.

    I’m saying that the fellowship is NOT the ‘church’ / Ekklesia.

    The PEOPLE who have been called out are the Ekklesia.

    Called out to go to church?

    No.

    Called out of darkness, and into his marvellous light!

    Like

  62. Yes, you’re beating the same drum over and over, but you are ignoring lots of scripture to do it.

    Acts 6: “The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch. And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them.”

    While you may have ‘elders’ that you recognize. These were men who were “chosen” by some group of people. Those who were chosen were “brought” before the apostles, and the apostles “laid their hands on them”.

    What I’m saying is that you can try to be a church deconstructionist, but at some point you have to realize that what happened in the New Testament would be ridiculous without some formal structure.

    I completely agree that the churches met house to house, but those house churches still had recognized leaders and they still had ways to discern who was among them and who was not. In 1 Cor, Paul instructs the church to put a man out. Out of what? Out of the ekklesia? Isn’t it GOD who chooses who is in or out? Even then, Paul tells them to restore him. If the Ekklesia is simply those who are saved, then who the blazes is Paul to decide who belongs in and out? And Paul is even chastising them for not doing it sooner.

    What does Paul tell Titus? “For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.”

    Why is Titus appointing elders if elders are supposed to be individual disciplers?

    I agree with you on a lot. I don’t think the church survived even one generation without being overrun with savage wolves. We know that type – the type who know how to look the part, yet they subtly change the gospel from grace to works, and somehow they put themselves in the position to determine those works. I think in corrupt churches, like the ones I grew up in, the real elders are not necessarily the ones with their names on the church website.

    It’s hard to be in a time like Elijah where organized religion was completely idolatrous, and among perhaps millions, God only preserved 7000 faithful. I don’t think you’re wrong for walking out of the organized church. I just think that there do exist godly churches out there. Even godly churches within corrupt denominations.

    Like

  64. Darlene – Those are good observations regarding the status of a regular attender. If one has not gone through the full membership process, then how can one be under discipline?

    Like

  65. Hi Mark,

    I beat this drum only because another did for me until one day I saw it for myself.

    I love all my family in Christ and the system we call ‘church’ is bondage. No way to beautify it.

    You wrote:

    Mark on January 18, 2017 at 4:22 PM
    “Yes, you’re beating the same drum over and over, but you are ignoring lots of scripture to do it.

    Me: not so. I’m not ignoring any passages regarding the gathering of the believers. In Acts 2 3000 souls came to faith. In the same chapter those believers met from house to house. In the same chapter it says they were ‘added to the church (singular) by the Lord. I’d love to know how they formalised those meetings back then. Is it possible that the people simply gathered for fellowship?- End

    “Acts 6: “The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch. And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them.”

    Me: Mark, this is a historical account of what happened then. It’s not for us to play out for ourselves like a historical drama. The apostles were messengers of the gospel. They were not men who ruled over local assemblies. -end.

    While you may have ‘elders’ that you recognize. These were men who were “chosen” by some group of people. Those who were chosen were “brought” before the apostles, and the apostles “laid their hands on them”.

    What I’m saying is that you can try to be a church deconstructionist, but at some point you have to realize that what happened in the New Testament would be ridiculous without some formal structure.

    Me: why is it ridiculous? Was it ridiculous that I spent several hours per week with my elder friend (at his house with his family) to go over Scriptures and pray and fellowship? Did I need an apostle (however you define it) to facilitate meeting with my friends for fellowship? Where is that in the NT? -end

    “I completely agree that the churches met house to house, but those house churches still had recognized leaders and they still had ways to discern who was among them and who was not. In 1 Cor, Paul instructs the church to put a man out. Out of what? Out of the ekklesia? Isn’t it GOD who chooses who is in or out? Even then, Paul tells them to restore him. If the Ekklesia is simply those who are saved, then who the blazes is Paul to decide who belongs in and out? And Paul is even chastising them for not doing it sooner.”

    Me: the identified elders amongst them, yes. Elders are older people who are spiritually mature. I know who is an elder in my life not because someone told me but by EXAMPLE. They followed up with me. They were not a ‘pastor’. They cared about the Lord’s little sheep and they fed me. I went to their house weekly for years before I left the Institution. Paul’s instructs the believers to put the man out of fellowship when they get together. -end

    “What does Paul tell Titus? “For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.”

    Me: yes. Identify godly older folk in every city. What’s the strange qualification for an overseer? “Given to hospitality” (ask yourself why this is). Remember: I spent 6 hours a week at a godly couple’s house for years. This is what it’s all about not a weekly religious meeting where you sit passively. I’m not disagreeing with you Mark. -end

    “Why is Titus appointing elders if elders are supposed to be individual disciplers?

    I agree with you on a lot. I don’t think the church survived even one generation without being overrun with savage wolves. We know that type – the type who know how to look the part, yet they subtly change the gospel from grace to works, and somehow they put themselves in the position to determine those works. I think in corrupt churches, like the ones I grew up in, the real elders are not necessarily the ones with their names on the church website.”

    Me: Elders are simply godly older folk who look after the younger believers. I personally have seen this play out whilst in the system and since I left. We do not need to re enact the way that these people talk care of us by playing out the Scriptures but we can see that the early church had simple fellowship. Liturgy and all that jazz comes from Rome which has nothing to do with Christ. As he gives the gifts we need to exercise faith that he is able to gift HIS true ekklesia for his purposes.

    Do we trust him to do this? Is he able? I say he is and I’m seeing him at work in my life. -end

    “It’s hard to be in a time like Elijah where organized religion was completely idolatrous, and among perhaps millions, God only preserved 7000 faithful. I don’t think you’re wrong for walking out of the organized church. I just think that there do exist godly churches out there. Even godly churches within corrupt denominations.”

    -me: for me, our family is safer outside of the Institutions. I teach our kids about the Lord all day Haha. They ask me to read them stories. We pray about stuff together during the day. This is real life faith for them growing up. we have believers in our life and not one it us outside the clubs are ‘missing out’. We talk about our burdens, the Lord and life. This is true fellowship. This is what we need. God is the one who gives his people what they need to meet his people’s needs. If we are to ‘earnestly covet the best gifts’ then that’s a great place to start. I’ll take all of them thanks God. 🙋- end

    Mark on January 18, 2017 at 4:27 PM
    “What are your thoughts on 1 Cor 9 and paying pastors?”

    Me: read it in its historical context and you’ll see it’s about Paul and his first century messenger (apostle) buddies. They were missionaries. Travelling with the message of the Saviour.

    I’ve no problem with supporting people who take the good news abroad. I’ve no issue with decent charities helping poor people. But this text is about an issue under 2000 years ago.

    If a man says, “you need to pay me a full time salary because 2000 years ago Paul spoke about apostles being entitled to FOOD and DRINK (v4)” I would be quick to point out two things:

    Paul was a missionary not a modern day pastor/pope/priest.
    Paul worked to not be a burden and said, “imitate my example”. When do you ever hear sermons on THAT haha!

    Mark, last week we were invited to a weekly meeting facilitated by ‘elders’. For those who have lots of kids this means our kids get babysit by someone we don’t know so we can sit passively in a meeting for an hour. Because the Lord gave me female parts I’m unable to talk in these meetings.

    So I’d rather think, “Lord, the early believers met in homes. You gave them gifts to fulfil YOUR work and the needs of YOUR people. Help me open my house, heart and life to do your work outside the institution”.

    And that’s what we do.

    And if God used me to lead a person to Christ… this member of the Body is open for business 24/7 to that individual. And I’d do it for free.

    It’s called service.

    😊👊

    Like

  66. Salty – I’m not sure you and Mark are so very far apart!

    I can understand your rejection of church as an institution consisting of formal meetings run by professionals, where, like the Sabbath, it has become something you serve rather than something for your benefit.

    Unfortunately, I have never learned Greek so I can only go by background reading of those who have. I think you are reading too much into the derivation of the word ekklesia as a people called out. This was used of people called out in order to assemble together to take council, a usage found in Acts in a secular sense and translated assembly (cf Acts 19:39). The church assembled together in the NT, the people not a building or institution, a living thing, a ‘body’ of believers.

    Paul differentiates between this kind of gathering, and simply being at home.

    I agree with Mark that there was a simple but clear structure to the early churches that gradually evolved as the church increased in size and spread. This can fossilize or become too formal – almost like organising the church as a business with by-laws, but despite this a church needs elders who carry responsibility for its well-being.

    This was a bit more than just fellowship, which I take to mean shared life, but I am all in favour of this kind of thing, it’s what it is all about, what happens outside of the church as assembly or congregation. Because arguably the word church has been debased by the usage you object to, congregation might be a better translation of the underlying Greek.

    Give my greetings to the brethren at Laodice’a, and to Nympha and the church in her house. (Col 4 : 15) I think this is where you are Mark meet – the church was called out to meet together in a house!

    What God has told us to do in the NT applies every bit as much today as it did back then. This includes the church structures, the gifts, meeting together etc. and I am very wary of making the word of God of none effect by relegating it to something designed for first century culture. This is far too common!

    Like

  67. Hey KAS,

    “Give my greetings to the brethren at Laodice’a, and to Nympha and the church in her house. (Col 4 : 15) I think this is where you are Mark meet – the church was called out to meet together in a house!”

    I don’t believe this is referring to anything more than the believers ‘called out ones’ who reside at this house. I don’t see the word ‘church’ and immediately think the believers were assembled.

    I can agree to disagree but when the word means ‘called out ones’ I would prefer to interpret it as that then use a secular meaning for the word ekklesia (a congregation) when it simply doesn’t add up when you consider all the passages using this word ekklesia.

    If Jesus is building daily meetings of his saints (they met daily in the NT) then we have a problem.

    It’s a huge problem to interpret the word ‘church’ ekklesia as assembly meetings of believers IF the word does not mean that at all.

    So I ask anyone reading this to pray and search the passages in the NT without reading assembled meetings into each text.

    I’ll leave it there Mark and KAS. I appreciate the discussion as you’ve encouraged me to keep looking at the Scriptures.

    Like

  68. ” I don’t know how you can read Acts and not see at least some structure. I won’t argue that the structure is what we have today, which I think tends to be idolatrous, but even in a simple passage like this: (here are parts from Acts 20)”

    It was a huge dilemma. Jesus left us no polity except to love and be the kingdom here and now. The irony of Acts and adding so many was that at that particular time, Jerusalem was teeming with the diaspora who came for Passover and stayed through Pentecost. Many would travel home and tell of what they saw and experienced. (That is where the Hellenistic Jews came from we read about) That should inform our reading.

    If we really want to receive a message from Acts, we might start with the chilling example of Ananias and Sapphira. The importance of honesty and trustworthiness as past of the Body. .

    If Jesus had been looking for structure over a changed mind of metanoia, He could have done better than barely educated fisherman or despised tax collectors. :o). We also tend to forget that after Paul’s early preaching debacle, he fled to Tarsus for many years until Barnabas went to get him to help. I believe those years are instructive to us.

    . Years ago, I did an in depth look into the Greek for the word, “appointed”. One of the definitions was “hand stretching” which denotes voting. The people would choose the ones they saw as most spiritually mature. I can imagine that was not so easy in the 1st Century.

    As to accepting that there will always be wolves in the established church and we must accept it. I don’t buy into that thinking because we are not in the 1st Century with a brand new way of thinking and living never known before. We have had 2000 years to do it better. We have better literacy, communication, less of a caste system and so on. Yet, we chose to allow titles to set themselves apart as the head from the Body, replacing Christ. We don’t need to keep wolves because of a title. If we do, the blood is on our hands…paraphrasing Paul.

    All this is to say that the Body of Christ is not some well oiled machine operating smoothly and we as cogs. It is a messy business. Paul was like the plate spinner dealing with the mess of Jew/Gentile dichotomies and seems contradictory at times because we read the NT, especially his letters, as a polity manual and not a collection of books and letters to specific groups.

    Liked by 1 person

  69. I love all my family in Christ and the system we call ‘church’ is bondage. No way to beautify it.

    Salty, I think some churches are bondage and others are not. And some of it depends entirely on how you interact with the church. Polity…some is better than others, but it can all be abusive or not abusive. I think we have to pick and choose wisely and be ready to scram if it turns bad, but I don’t that means all churches are bad.

    I took many years off church, but have now joined a congregation so maybe I see both sides. I also have many good friends left from my childhood church, even though the church itself more or less fell apart (long after I left).

    Liked by 1 person

  70. I haven’t read all the comments yet so perhaps someone already said what I noticed in those by-laws under “discipline.” It’s not only members that can be disciplines and excommuicated, but also those who regularly attend and haven’t agreed to the membership covenant/contract. Now that is Control Freakery on steroids.

    Control Freakery on steroids, indeed! Wow!

    Like

  71. Hmmm? Ekklesia? Church?

    What does ”Ekklesia,” really mean?

    Jesus, warned WE, His Sheep, His Servants, His Disciples, His Ekklesia…
    About, Commandments of Men, Doctrines of Men, Tradtions of Men…
    That ”Make Void,” and ”Nullify,” “The Word of God.”

    Mark 7:13
    NLT – you “cancel” the word of God to hand down your own tradition…
    KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
    ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
    NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…

    After leaving “The Corrupt Religious System” of Today, early 90’s…
    I realized I had been led astray by my shepherds… Jer 50:6
    And was taught many Doctrines of Men, and ”Tradtions of Men,”

    And NOT what was actually ”Written in the Scriptures.”

    When it came to – What does ”ekklesia,” really mean?
    I printed out every verse with the Greek word Ekklesia…
    Read them, over and over, trying to understand.

    I recommend, if anyone is interested, that they do the same.
    As much as possible, put aside what you think, what you’ve been taught.
    As much as possible, Start with a clean slate. Like it’s the first time.
    ”Ekklesia is 115 times in the NT.

    As you read the sriptures – Ask yourself these Questions…
    xxxxxxxxxx

    In the Bible?
    Did any of ”His Disciples?”
    Ever?

    Go to Church?
    Join a Church?
    Lead a Church?
    Plant a Church?
    Pastor a Church?
    Attend a Church?
    Tithe to a Church?
    Look for a Church?
    Teach Go to Church?
    Bring their friends to Church?
    Become members of a Church?
    Apply for Membership in a Church?
    Call themselves a Leader in a Church?
    Build, or buy, a building called Church?
    Give silver, gold, or money to a Church?

    *Did any of ”His Disciples?” ever Become?
    Paid, Professional, Pastors, in Pulpits?
    Preaching, to People in Pews?
    Weak after Weak?
    In a church?
    xxxxxxxx

    ”Tradtions of Men” are extremly powerful, and blinding…

    They can ”Cancel” and ”Nuify” ”The Word of God.”

    Liked by 1 person

  72. Yes – There are differnt thoughts about ”Ekklesia.”

    1 – Some, like Cooper P. Abrams, III, seem to say “ekklesia”
    ….. Only means “assembly” or “congregation.”
    ….. http://bible-truth.org/Ekklesia.html

    2 – Some, like “Ekklesia Ministries” seem to say “ekklesia”* –
    ….. Only means **“the called out ones.”
    ….. http://www.ekklesia.ws/ekk_defined.htm

    3 – Some, like Wayne Jacobsen, say “ekklesia” – can be both.
    …. “The idea of “called out” and an “assembled” body are NOT mutually exclusive expressions. The single term can embrace both ideas.”
    http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1500-ekklesia-revisited

    4 – Some, like Strongs Concordance and Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon.
    And others, seem to say ”ekklesia” is – both…
    “the called out ones” and “assembly.”

    Seems before there can be an assembly, the folks, believers, the Redeemed, have to be “called out” of where they are then “assemble.”

    Strongs – #1577. ekklesia, a compound of 1537 and 2564;
    “a calling out,” a popular meeting, a religious congregation, assembly.
    From two Greek words. Ek = Out of. And Kaleo = To call

    Thayers – ekklesia –
    1 – a gathering of citizens “called out from their homes”
    ….. into some public place – an assembly.

    For now I accept #3 and #4…
    Both “the called out ones” and “assembly” are likely options. 😉

    I mean, Do I stop being part of “The Body of Christ,” the ekklesia
    When NOT assembled? Traveling? In prison? Solitary confinement?

    For myself, I found quite a few verses that can be – Both.
    Some verses that only refer to – “called out ones.”

    You really have to study this ”Ekklesia” for yourself.

    You really have to get this from Jesus, for yourself. NO middle man.
    xxxxxxxxxx

    John 6:45
    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.

    John 14:26
    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
    whom the Father will send in my name,
    he shall teach you all things…

    Deuteronomy 4:36
    Out of heaven he made thee to hear His voice,
    that He might instruct thee:

    Liked by 1 person

  74. Salty

    You are NOT alone… Many are now seeing…
    WE, His Sheep, were sold a bill of goods about ”Ekklesia.”
    Caused to go astray by our shepherds. Jer 50:6 KJV .
    And our church leaders. Isa 9:16 KJV

    For myself, I like using “ekklesia” and “called out ones” when talking “Church.” It reminds me and others “the ekklesia of God” is always people. NOT institution. NOT a building. I see “ekklesia” referring to being “by myself,” with “two or three,” an “assembly.”

    For your reading pleasure…
    Here are some verses that mention ”Church.”
    Church = assembly? OR Church = ”the called out ones?

    1 – I will build ”my church” – Mt 16:18 – build also means “to edify.”
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Could be either – Yes?
    I will build my assembly? I will build, edify, ”my called out ones?”

    2 – the Lord added to ”the church” – Acts 2:47 – Could be both. Yes?
    (added to assembly?) OR ( added to the called out ones?)
    If Jesus adds someone in prison, solitary confinement?
    Is this person, all alone, now, part of Christ, His body, “The Church?”
    Or, are they “only” ”ekklesia?” when out of prison and assembled?

    3 – great fear came upon all ”the church” – Acts 5:11.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Does fear only come when the ”ekklesia” is assembled?

    4 – a great persecution against ”the church” at Jerusalem – Acts 8:1.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Was there persucution just against the assembled believers?
    If there is NO assembly of believers – then…
    Is there NO persecution against believers? Against The ”Ekklesia?”

    5 – Saul, made havock of ”the church,” entering every house – Acts 8:3.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Why did Saul enter into every house?
    Why NOT just where they were assembled?
    Were there assemblies in every house? In Jerusalem?
    Or, “the called out ones” in every house?

    6 – they assembled themselves with ”the church,” – Acts 11:26.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Did they assemble themselves with the assembly?
    Or, did they assemble themselves with “the called out ones?”

    7 – Herod the king … to vex certain of ”the church,” – Acts 12:1.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Only vexing certain of the assemblies? NOT all?
    Or certain of “the called out ones?”

    8 – and had gathered ”the church,” together – Acts 14:27.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Gathered the assembly? Or, gathered “the called out ones?”

    9 – And being brought on their way by ”the church,” – Acts 15:3.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Did the whole assembly bring Paul to Jerusalem?
    Or, only a few of “the called out ones?”

    10 – they were received of ”the church,” – Acts 15:4.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)

    11 – set them to judge who are least esteemed in ”the church,” 1 Cor 6:4
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Hmmm? Must be a misprint? The least esteemed get to be judges?
    Ever see that in the 501 c3, non-profit, tax deductible IRS Corporation

    12 – If ”the whole church” come together into one place – 1 Cor 14:23.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)

    13 – Christ is the head of ”the church,” the saviour of the body. Eph 5:23
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Is Christ “only” the head when we’re assembled?
    Is Christ “only” the savior of an assembly?
    Or, the savior of “the called out ones?” Wherever they are?

    14 – Christ also loved ”the church,”, and gave himself for it. Eph 5:25.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Christ “only” loved the assembly?
    NOT the one home alone? In Prison? Traveling?
    Gave Himself “only” for the assembly?

    15 – feed ”the church,” of God, purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Feed “only” the assembly?
    Or, feed “the called out ones,” wherever they may be?

    16 – gave him to be the head over all things to ”the church,” – Eph 1:22.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)

    17 – ”the church,” is subject unto Christ – Eph 5:24.
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
    Is “only” the assembly subject to Christ?
    Or, “the called out ones” are subject to Christ?
    Assembled or Not assembled?

    18 – he is the head of the body, ”the church,” – Col 1:18
    (assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear MY voice;”
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Fold – One Voice – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Liked by 1 person

  75. Salty and the poet A Amos Love:

    I am in a 100% agreement with you both, but I don’t have the flair with words to express myself like you two. Impossible.

    Liked by 1 person

  76. Thanks so much Amos and BL 🔥🙋

    It might seem like I’m being contentious to some about this issue and word.

    words are important.

    We can’t just accept what we’ve been told and truly need to “prove all things and hold onto that which is good”.

    God bless you guys

    Like

  77. Amos,

    Thank you for sharing those verses. I admire your ability to articulate your thoughts in a powerful way.

    Just some thoughts in response…

    The existence of the whole building doesn’t eliminate the existence of all the parts that make that building.

    “And now you are living stones that are being used to build a spiritual house. You are also a group of holy priests, and with the help of Jesus Christ you will offer sacrifices that please God.”
    1Peter 2:5 (CEV)

    “You are like a building with the apostles and prophets as the foundation and with Christ as the most important stone. Christ is the one who holds the building together and makes it grow into a holy temple for the Lord. And you are part of that building Christ has built as a place for God’s own Spirit to live.
    Ephesians 2:20-22(CEV)

    Amos, I agree with you that we are all part of the full body of Christ. We are all called as priests to worship in spirit and truth, offering our lives as a living sacrifice to God.

    There are NT verses about the whole body of Christ and verses about the “assembling” of believers together.

    “Greet also the church that meets at their house.”
    Romans 16:5a (Berean)

    “When the day of Pentecost came, all the believers were gathered together in one place.”
    Acts 2:1 (GNT)

    (The Holy Spirit fell on them while they were assembled together, not while they were all at home by themselves.)

    “Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you.”
    1Cor 14:26 (NLT)

    “Now there were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. A young man named Eutychus, who was sitting in a window, began to sink off into a deep sleep as Paul kept speaking longer and longer. Overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead. But Paul went down, bent over him, took him into his arms, and said, “Stop being alarmed, because he’s still alive.”
    Acts 20:8-10 (ISV)

    “Give my greetings to Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in the ministry of Christ Jesus. In fact, they once risked their lives for me. I am thankful to them, and so are all the Gentile churches.”
    Romans 16:3-4 (NLT)

    “So the Twelve called the whole group of disciples together and said, “It is not desirable for us to neglect messages from God in order to wait on tables. Therefore, brothers, appoint seven men among you who have a good reputation, who are full of the Spirit and wisdom, and we’ll put them in charge of this work. Then we’ll devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”

    “This suggestion pleased the whole group. So they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a gentile convert to Judaism from Antioch. They had these men stand before the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.”
    Acts 6:2-6 (ISV)

    “Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.”
    Hebrews 10:25 (Berean)

    These are my thoughts about the meaning of “church.” Yes there’s the whole entire body of Christ and there’s local groups of believers. The existence of the whole body doesn’t eliminate the existence of the parts.

    Like

  78. Amos,

    Sorry I forgot to mention something.

    You had asked the question
    Q1: “Did any of ”His Disciples?” Ever?………..Call themselves a Leader in a Church?”

    Here’s one example:
    “I, who am an elder myself, appeal to the church elders among you. I am a witness of Christ’s sufferings, and I will share in the glory that will be revealed. I appeal to you to be shepherds of the flock that God gave you and to take care of it willingly, as God wants you to, and not unwillingly. Do your work, not for mere pay, but from a real desire to serve. Do not try to rule over those who have been put in your care, but be examples to the flock.”
    1Peter 5:1-3 (GNT)

    Here’s another example of them making leadership type decisions

    “A few days later there was a meeting of the believers, about a hundred and twenty in all, and Peter stood up to speak……So they proposed two men: Joseph…..and Matthias. Then they prayed, “Lord, you know the thoughts of everyone, so show us which of these two you have chosen to serve as an apostle in the place of Judas, who left to go to the place where he belongs.”
    Acts 1:15, 23-25 (GNT)

    Here’s an example of Peter ministering to an “assembly.”

    In Acts 10, Cornelius specifically sends for Peter to come and minister to them. When Peter gets there he says to Peter,
    “Now we are all here in the presence of God, waiting to hear anything that the Lord has instructed you to say.”
    Acts 10:33b (GNT)

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  79. I know I am not a regular here—but I am not in touch with other believers much.. I needed some advice.

    One of two ladies that just recently started cleaning my house (I have some injuries), stole a pricey piece of jewelry from me. I usually hide it, but was wearing it for a few days and took off, and put in a bathroom drawer with some costume jewelry a few days before they came on their day to clean (8 days ago). It was a gift from my husband for our 25th anniversary. I took it off to go to volunteer somewhere–hoping to teach the girls there how to make jewelry–putting on one of what I made as an example.

    Both sisters claim to be believers. The one I know from business interaction is trying to get me involved in a study at a synagogue she cleans.. a series of “bible studies” by a Rabbi, telling the Jewish members about the New Testament…She also watched our puppy recently in our home ..this was a great thing to have someone to trust while we are away……

    Her sister..the one who cleans the bathroom denied she took it today when we asked her about it (over the phone-with her sister in our house). …It was Inside one of those divided drawer trays that hold jewelry. When she was here last, I saw her in front of that drawer cleaning the counter. I had put it there a few days before and never transferred it to where I hide it.

    I am always wary of having anything around to tempt anyone which is why I always cleaned my own house (had stuff stolen on two separate times years ago.)
    One of the women (not the one in the bathroom) we know for many years and have done business with for 25 years…her sister, we don’t know at all. The one we know is saying the sister would never do this, and on a conference call the one we are accusing insists she answers to “her God”.. : May be very insignificant in light of what others are going through.. Any advice?
    This world is so disheartening. Thanks.

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  80. PS I realize it sounds ridiculous..as if anyone would ever admit to stealing something. I guess we just wanted that woman to know we know she took it. Not that it makes any difference to a thief. And a liar. Sorry for these posts..I guess I am just sick of those who profess to know God and are frauds..I gave these women very nice gifts for the holidays. We treat them very well. Well, God I guess is showing me more and more that this place is not our home… 😦

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  81. Hannah,

    I’m sorry to hear that happened to you.

    We want to hear your thoughts. I hope you feel just as much a part of this community as us “regulars.”

    Like

  82. Thanks Avid….There is really no settling the spirit when one is hurt and taken advantage of..either by church or another who takes what is not theirs, and insists they would never do anything like that. Its a matter of trust broken. And relationships shattered. Violation of what is ours, whether our body or our “stuff”. I guess we are not supposed to have “stuff” and place importance on it. I did love that diamond heart….it sparkled and was a very special gift. For many years my husband wanted to get me something very special like this. Well, if she didn’t sell it, she is hopefully enjoying it. I guess I can look at it like an offering…Not easy.

    Like

  83. …and I am praying that God convicts her to return it.
    I told her sister that if she returns it, I will not say any more about it.
    And she will be right with the “god” she says she answers to… God will forgive her and so will I. It is very expensive to replace…OK, I am so sorry to bring this up here…If you are not all annoyed with me I am thankful..!

    Like

  84. I’m sorry to hear your the precious gift from your husband was stolen, Hannah. I hope that whomever stole it, returns it. Maybe you can ask your husband to replace it with something else – even something of lesser value – so that you have something tangible to remind you of his love for you.

    Like

  85. Thank you JA..I realize it’s materialistic-which I am usually not…but thanks. 🙂
    I am praying that God convicts her. I am hoping there is a better ending to this…thanks again.

    Like

  86. Hannah, how unsettling 😥 Sorry you’re going through this.

    The God words and church stuff means nothing. I trust unbelievers as much as I trust professing believers whose actions/character I haven’t seen over a period of time.

    If you confront the other sister it could play out in a few ways.

    If she admits it and returns it, you may consider reporting the matter to police so she doesn’t keep cleaning houses and stealing from others.

    If she doesn’t admit it, report it to the police.

    praying she’ll return the item.

    Either way, I think the police should get involved as it’s a person whose sole job is to clean. If she’s cleaning to gain access to stuff then it’s a job for the police.

    Like

  87. “There is really no settling the spirit when one is hurt and taken advantage of..either by church or another who takes what is not theirs, and insists they would never do anything like that. Its a matter of trust broken. And relationships shattered. Violation of what is ours, whether our body or our “stuff”. I guess we are not supposed to have “stuff” and place importance on it. I did love that diamond heart….it sparkled and was a very special gift. For many years my husband wanted to get me something very special like this. Well, if she didn’t sell it, she is hopefully enjoying it. I guess I can look at it like an offering…Not easy.”

    I can relate. The broken trust over what you know but can’t prove is the worst when dealing with fellow “believers”. Without some admission of wrong doing how can there ever be forgiveness and reconciliation?. Yet, that is what most churches teach. To ignore the obvious and forgive which means pretend it never happened. That is toxic thinking. For one, like Salty said, if she cleans other houses then instant forgiveness does not help to protect other clients. I don’t think police will do anything, though.

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  88. Thank you JA..I realize it’s materialistic-which I am usually not

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with being upset someone stole from you, especially if it was sentimental! If they are sole contractors, you can report it, or if they are working for an agency you might be able to get them to make restitution. (my dad has something stolen by moving men once and was able to hang on to some of their equipment they had left at the house until the company agreed to pay for what went missing).

    If not, maybe you can report to your insurance, if that makes sense.

    Like

  89. Lydia

    You are right . There was no camera, and no proof.
    She was helping her sister clean since the sister had some back trouble.
    They were only here 4 times, and the one who stole was not going to come back since another sister was going to help.
    The only thing I can do is report it to the police so that with her name they can do a search in pawn shops to see if she sold it.
    That’s about it…they are not insured and insurance is too high for jewelry these days.

    Lea
    No agency…the sister we hired cleans our office and my husband knows her and daughter for 25 years. It’s unfortunate that she will never believe her sister could do this…that’s understandable.

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  90. Salty

    Maybe I’ll call the police..but I’m sure this happens all the time…no proof. No camera. My word against hers…
    I am praying she returns it because that will be a great testimony…and a real conversion for her.
    I agree with your trust issues.
    In our business, non believers with good work ethics have been better than those who profess Christ. Sad, isn’t it?
    I hope to report that she returns it.

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  91. Salty/A Amos Love.

    You’re missing something important. http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_1577.htm
    Not all of the uses of Ekklesia are singular. Some are plural. If you want to claim that “Ekklesia” = the invisible church – the universal body of believers, then how could the Bible ever use the plural? For example Romans 16:16 – “Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.”

    Like

  92. Hi Mark

    I’m NOT sure what you are trying to say.

    I’m NOT talking about, or thinking about…
    “that “Ekklesia” = the invisible church – the universal body of believers,”
    xxxxxxxx

    I’m trying to understand the word ”Church” or ”Churches”
    Which is what I see the word ”Ekklesia” refering to in scripture.

    Often it coud refer to ”an assembly.” (Visible)
    Often it coud refer to ”the called out ones.” (Visible)
    xxxxxxxxxx

    Your example Romans 16:16…
    “Greet one another with a holy kiss.
    All the churches of Christ greet you.”

    For many years I understood that “All the churches…” meant
    ALL the different buildings, different denominations, with congregations.
    There are lots of buildings with crosses in my neck of the woods.

    But, today, I’m-a-thinkn – “All the churches…” Can be understood as…

    All ”the assemblys” of Christ greet you.”

    All ”the called out ones” of Christ greet you.”

    Like

  93. Avid Reader

    You quote Eph 2:20-22 @ JANUARY 19, 2017 @ 12:58 PM…

    “You are like a building with the apostles and prophets as the foundation and with Christ as the most important stone. Christ is the one who holds the building together and makes it grow into a holy temple for the Lord. And you are part of that building Christ has built as a place for God’s own Spirit to live.
    Ephesians 2:20-22(CEV)

    NOT familiar with the CEV.
    But, I think this is NOT a good translation. At least this verse.
    xxxxxxxxxx

    But, then again, different versions give a similar impression…
    That, *”The Apostles and Prophets,” ARE…**
    ”The Foundation” of the building – ”The Church.”

    Many in ”The Five Fold Ministry,” teach this theory. – I did. 😦
    To promote the importance of ”The Five Fold Ministry Monster.”
    To maintain Separation, Elevation, and Control and Manipulation…
    Over the PewPeons.

    Hmmm? Only Four, in Greek. Yes? – And what does ”Fold” mean?
    xxxxxxx

    But, But, But, ”The Five Fold Ministry Monster,” has a challenge.
    Paul kinda said, there is only ”ONE” foundation.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    And, he, Paul, is the Master Builder who laid that foundation.
    And NO other foundation can anyone lay.

    1 Cor 3:10-11 NKJV
    According to the grace of God which was given to me,
    as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation,
    and another builds on it.
    But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
    For NO other foundation can anyone lay
    than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    So, Do WE, His Disciples, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Body…
    Have ”TWO” Foundations?

    Or, in Eph 2:20-22…
    Is the foundation of the apostles and prophets, also Jesus Christ?

    Eph 2:20-22 NKJV
    having been built on
    the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
    Himself being the chief cornerstone…

    And now WE, His His Called Out Ones, His Ekklesia, His Church…
    Have just ”ONE” Foundation.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  94. Darlene wrote, “I think we need to inform Pastor Eric that disciplining regular attendees who are not members could get him into Hot Water.”
    Cornerstone should be put into church discipline by 9Marx for letting their trade secret out of the bag– they actually DO know that ALL professising Christians who regularly attend or fellowship with a church are ALREADY a real part of that church– whatever a church is :)– signature or no.

    Like

  95. Hi Mark,

    Good effort! You’ve checked your bible 👊🚀👍😝

    You wrote:

    “Salty/A Amos Love.

    You’re missing something important. http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_1577.htm
    Not all of the uses of Ekklesia are singular. Some are plural. If you want to claim that “Ekklesia” = the invisible church – the universal body of believers, then how could the Bible ever use the plural? For example Romans 16:16 – “Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.”

    I’m glad you brought this up. I’m aware that Ekklesia is plural in the Greek and is translated ‘churches’ in our English versions. I’ve got a Greek NT and I checked it out about a year ago. Looked up every passage and compared it to the English version I use. Did my due diligence like you’ve just done 👍

    Not missing a thing Mark 😜👌🏼

    In the Scriptures, the only recognised division of Christ’s ekklesia is by geographical location.

    I do not believe that the seven ‘churches’ Ekklesias (plural) in revelation means “to the seven religious clubs” or “to the seven gatherings of believers”. I believe it’s simply a division made based on the location of the believers.

    So what I mean is that the ‘seven churches’ were not simply seven assemblies. There were seven locations where believers lived and these believers are addressed as ‘the church’. The called out ones in Ephesus.

    How do we know this?

    Acts 2. The Lord added ‘to the church (ekklesia) daily such as should be saved’. 3000+ believers met from ‘house to house’. The meetings are not ‘the church’.
    The ‘church’ in Acts 2 was not a ‘mega church’ facility built to fit 3000+ believers in it. The context is clear that the 3000+ members of the body of which Christ is head ARE the ‘church’.

    If the Lord wanted us to believe that the meetings are ‘the church’ then I believe this word Ekklesia would not be singular in Acts 2, and elsewhere.

    Eg: to the church singular that is at Corinth.

    We know the believers met from house to house throughout the NT. So whatever ‘the church’ is, it’s not a meeting nor a building nor an event which today we call ‘going TO church’.

    It’s taken me a few years to grasp this.

    We have been deceived into thinking Jesus is building religious club houses and meetings.

    Jesus is building a royal priesthood. Living stones. He’s not imitating the temple system. He is building a nation of set apart individuals.

    If the enemy is real and is attacking the people of God… the best way he can do that is to infiltrate and have people worshipping something besides the Lord.

    Quenching the Spirit.

    Spiritual idolatry.

    ‘John 4 worship’ is not attending weekly rock concert meetings where we listen to worldly Jesus music and feel good.

    If none of this is making sense then I’d ask you to go into your room, close the door and ‘hands and knee’ type pray to the Lord to show you how deep this issue goes.

    Does this make it clear Mark?

    Eg, if I said “to the three churches in North America” and then addressed, “to the church in Seattle” I don’t mean there is ONE physical clubhouse in Seattle. I’m referring to all the believers who reside in Seattle who ARE the ekklesia located IN Seattle.

    Religious leaders would have you believe Jesus is building weekly clubhouses.

    He’s not.

    And once this makes sense… you’ll be amazed at how clear it is when you go over the passages for the millionth time.

    It takes a while.

    The delusion is real and strong.

    Liked by 1 person

  96. Salty, this is somewhat an argument from silence, but yours is, too.

    The Jews worshiped in synagogues. There isn’t an exhaustive understanding about what exactly happened in synagogues, but we understand that the synagogue had leaders, the synagogue had rabbis and there was a form of discipline. The blind man Jesus healed was put out of the synagogue, and his parents were afraid that they, too, would be put out.

    When Paul went from city to city, he first visited the synagogues to witness to the Jews that their messiah had come. That met with mixed success. They would often have a significant number of converts before, generally, the synagogue leaders got upset and kicked them out.

    So, the Jews would have understood themselves as “one” body of believers, yet, each synagogue had a leadership and a structure.

    You are claiming that the New Testament teaches a church model without any formal structure. In fact, you have made various statements against any form of structure or positional authority.

    If that were the case, then why do the missionaries in the 1st century work within the formal structure? It seems their purpose is to convert the synagogues.

    Secondly, if there is no positional authority, then why are there people called elders, who gather and make decisions that are binding on the church? Why do individual assemblies struggling with theological disagreements feel the need to send people to a central place to work out the disagreement? And, if the church is a hodgepodge of people hanging out, why would they have any confidence that the decision made (that Gentiles need not be circumcised to be saved).

    Why does Paul claim apostleship over people who (apparently) reject it? If the Holy Spirit leads me to recognize my elders, then why would my elder have to say, “hey Mark! I’m your elder, and that means you have to listen to what I have to say!” Yet, Paul does exactly that. He asserts and defends positional authority over the congregations he writes to.

    Again, I’m not saying that the organized church today is some shining example of godly authority. I’m not even saying that it is somehow evil to leave the organized church and seek godly people with the Holy Spirit to grow in righteousness. I just find it wrong to try and baptize that decision into some sort of God-given directive to forsake any sort of formal gathering. When I apply that theory to the New Testament, it applies models for how people would interact, and then when those models are applied, I end up having to throw most of the New Testament in the trash…

    If, instead, Ekklesia has a similar meaning to church – the church being 1) all of the saints in history – the bride of Christ, 2) all of the saints living today, 3) all of the saints in a given region, 4) A representation of those who declare themselves to be saints in a region (church in Corinth), 5) A representation of those who declare themselves to be saints in a specific body in a region (churches in Galatia).

    Maybe I can ask it another way. Will there still be Apostles in Heaven? If not Paul cannot be an Apostle of the bride of Christ. Instead, he is an Apostle of some sort of temporal manifestation of the bride of Christ.

    Like

  97. Salty, “‘John 4 worship’ is not attending weekly rock concert meetings where we listen to worldly Jesus music and feel good.”

    This is not respectful argumentation. This is a false dichotomy. And, honestly, I came from a background that had that exact evaluation of contemporary worship. The flip side of the dichotomy in that case was come weekly to have the pastor whip you into a sense of worthlessness.

    And, “If none of this is making sense then I’d ask you to go into your room, close the door and ‘hands and knee’ type pray to the Lord to show you how deep this issue goes.”

    It makes perfect sense, but again, this is not respectful argumentation. You are claiming superior knowledge and you’re claiming that somehow if I were more spiritual (i.e. praying) that God would enlighten me. Isn’t this hypocritical? You claim that our spiritual leaders are those the Holy Spirit leads us to recognize as our spiritual leaders, but when I refuse to recognize YOUR spiritual leadership, you try to guilt and shame me into that recognition in an attempt to control me. Isn’t that why you left the organized church?

    Like

  98. Mark

    You write about @ JANUARY 20, 2017 @ 8:56 AM…
    ”Leadership” and ”postional Authority.”

    And make a reasonable argument for both to be in ”The Church.”

    That is what I believed, and taught, when I was in ”Leadership.”
    And, when I desired to have this ”postional Authority.”

    ”Leadership,” ”postional Authority,” – That comes with…
    Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Recognition, Reputation… etc…

    ALL those things that…
    Are highly esteemed among men – BUT…
    Is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15.
    xxxxxxxxxx

    Ps 138:6
    Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
    but the proud he knoweth afar off.

    Ps 40:4
    Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
    and respecteth NOT the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

    Like

  99. Mark

    Have you ever noticed? In the Bible?
    Jesus has a unique take on ”Leadership” for ”His Disciples?”

    ”ONE?”

    And, Jesus taught ”His Disciples” NOT to be called ”Leader.”
    For “ONE” is your ”Leader,” that is, ”Christ.”

    And, His Disciples must have believed Jesus… Because…
    In the Bible, NOT one of ”His Disciples” called them self “Leader.”

    Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
    Do NOT be called ”leaders;”
    for “ONE” is your ”Leader,” that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant.”
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    Humble – a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance.

    Know many, any, Today, who say they are…
    ”Leadership?” ”positional Authority?”
    Who are humble?

    With, “a modest or low estimate of their own importance?”

    Oy Vey!!! We, in “Leadership,” always taught the PewPeons…
    How important, We, in “Leadership,” were to their spiritual health… 😦

    Mat 23:10-12 – The Message
    And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
    There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
    Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a Servant.
    If you puff yourself up,
    you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
    But if you’re content to simply be yourself,
    your life will count for plenty.

    And, His Disciples must have believed Jesus… Because…
    In the Bible, NOT one of ”His Disciples” called them self “Leader.”

    Jesus, as man, Humbled Himself… Made Himself of NO reputation…
    And took on the form of a ”Servant.” Phil 2:7-8.

    When you’re in ”Leadership” with ”positional Authority,”
    You now have a ”Reputation,” and ”Power.”

    Whether you want that ”Reputation,” and ”Power.” – Or, NOT…
    xxxxxxxxxx

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    Like

  100. Amos,

    There seems to be some confusion there. None of us are arguing for a power hierarchy in the church. I can’t find that in the NT. In fact several verses strongly imply that Jesus was forbidding “lording it over” the flock—which advocates against the type of problems we are seeing too often in the church today.

    The fact that the Apostle Paul chose the human body as a metaphor for the body of Christ also strongly implies that he was grasping for a non-hierarchical model.

    The NT describes the gifts of the Holy Spirit without putting them into a hierarchy.

    So when you argue against the gifts of the Holy Spirit because you are concerned that they are taught:

    “To promote the importance of ”The Five Fold Ministry Monster.”
    To maintain Separation, Elevation, and Control and Manipulation…
    Over the PewPeons.”

    Jesus specifically FORBADE “separation, elevation, control and manipulation.”

    We are NOT advocating any of that!

    These gifts(pastor, teacher, apostle, etc) are callings, NOT thrones.

    Authority is found in Scripture not positions. When someone teaches on baptism and holds a baptismal service, people respond out of obedience to Scripture not the pastor’s position.

    There’s a huge difference between being under pastoral care and being controlled by the pastor. When we go out to eat, we enjoy our meal without being “controlled” by the restaurant or chef who prepared it. When we receive a spiritual meal, we can learn without having to be “controlled.”

    Remember Jesus said “if you love ME, feed My sheep.” That’s the foundation for all ministry. That can easily be done without “manipulation, etc.”

    Eze 34 is pretty clear about how God gets upset at shepherds who control the flock instead of doing their job to heal wounds, strengthen, feed and minister to the flock.

    Jesus specifically forbade exalting ourselves.
    “But the greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
    Matthew 23:11-12 (Berean)

    Real apostles do the work of the ministry without trying to “exalt” their position. Obviously the Apostle Paul was functioning in that gifting when he wrote the NT and traveled around to minister to the churches. He was laying a foundation—not a hierarchy—but a foundation of Christ for the early church.

    If we can start to see these giftings as work. As laying down our lives for others. As putting aside our own needs to serve the body of Christ. As developing the gift of God inside of us for the benefit of everyone else—then we start to see the example of Christ who came “not to be served but to serve and give My life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:45)

    Like

  101. “Secondly, if there is no positional authority, then why are there people called elders, who gather and make decisions that are binding on the church? Why do individual assemblies struggling with theological disagreements feel the need to send people to a central place to work out the disagreement? And, if the church is a hodgepodge of people hanging out, why would they have any confidence that the decision made (that Gentiles need not be circumcised to be saved).”

    Mark, you are reading scripture through a myopic authoritatian caste system lens. I could ask you why all the letters were not addressed to “elders” to carry out the “binding” decisions? Based on your assertion, that is how it worked for every body of believers.

    But wait! Who were the elders in Corinth? Philippi? And so on? You are claiming a blanket universal caste system of polity where that is simply not the case. And add to that the “appointing” in the places we see that mentioned could be “hand stretching” as in voting. Elder would mean mature, so there is that, too. Add to the equation we are not in the 1st Century with a whole new belief system.

    Like

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