Pastor Doug Wilson Has Been Involved in Another Disturbing Pedophile Case: Jamin Wight

Pastor Doug Wilson, pedophile Jamin Wight, and Christ Church

Jamin Wight, Doug Wilson, Christ Church, pedophile

Jamin C. Wight and Doug Wilson

Please note:  the following article was written by R. L. Stollar, of Homeschoolers Anonymous and posted here. Ryan has given me permission to cross-post it at SSB.  Thanks, Ryan!

Pastor Doug Wilson Has Been Involved in Another Disturbing Pedophile Case: Jamin Wight

Content warning: sexual abuse of children, physical and sexual abuse of an animal.

Over the last few days, Doug Wilson and Christ Church have received mounting attention and criticism over the case of Steven Sitler. Sitler, a homeschool alumnus who attended New Saint Andrews College as a student and Christ Church as a parishioner, was sentenced to life on September 26, 2005 for molesting children. Sitler had a long history of sexually abusing and preying on numerous young children, allegedly including children at R.C. Sproul Jr.’s Highlands Study Center in 2003. You can read a comprehensive timeline of events and evidential documentation here, though be warned that the court documents contain detailed descriptions of child sexual abuse.

Despite Sitler’s crimes, Doug Wilson — who served as Sitler’s counselor and petitioned Sitler’s judge for “measured and limited” civil penalties — continued to welcome Sitler in his church after his sentencing. Furthermore, in spite of Wilson becoming aware of Sitler’s history of sexual predation on March 11, 2005, it was not until eight months later, in November, that Wilson informed the leaders of Christ Church about Sitler’s crimes, and not until nine months later in December that he informed the families of Christ Church in general.

On May 8, 2007, Sitler was released on probation. A mere one month later, Sitler was arrested again for violating his parole due to using binoculars to spy through an underage girl’s bedroom window. He was again released on probation. Four years later, Doug officiated a wedding between Sitler and a young woman in their community, even though the two became engaged after only their second date. Wilson apparently considered it prudent to bless the union between a serial child molester and a young woman who barely knew a serial child predator — and against the wisdom of a court judge, who determined that it would not be wise for Sitler to “reside with his wife and child in the future if in fact they have children.”  Nonetheless, Sitler and his new wife became pregnant and had a child, a young boy.

Tragically, Sitler’s situation resurfaced this last week and the concerns of that judge appear newly justified. A news report by the Moscow-Pullman Daily News revealed that Sitler cannot have unchaperoned contact with his infant child. This is because of new disclosures that, when Sitler had contact with his son, “actual sexual stimulation” occurred. From the Moscow-Pullman Daily News:

A Latah County 2nd District Court judge ordered Tuesday that a convicted sex offender, Steven Sitler, must continue to have an approved chaperone present, within his direct line of sight, at all times he is around his infant child in the wake of new disclosures of “contact resulting in actual sexual stimulation.” …The incidents in question occurred while Sitler was chaperoned. “In some extent the state’s worst fears appeared to be realized by some of the recent disclosures in the polygraphs,” Thompson said. “The actions that he has engaged in and disclosed are a compelling basis that he cannot have anything close to a normal parental relationship at this time with his child,” Thompson said. “Everybody would love for Mr. Sitler to become a normal person, but the fact is he is not. He is a serial child sexual abuser.

jamin wight, doug wilson, christ church, pedophile

This new information has rightly brought revived attention to the role Doug Wilson and Christ Church played in handling revelations of child molestation within their community. Everyone from GRACE’s Boz Tchividjian to Spiritual Sounding Board’s Julie Anne Smith to Love Joy Feminism’s Libby Anne has raised important points and questions concerning Wilson and Christ Church’s severe and horrific mishandling of abuse (as well as continued refusal to own up to their mistakes). However, while it is important that we revisit and bring new light to the case of Steven Sitler, it also important that we shine new light on a less-known child molester who was similarly aided and abetted by Doug Wilson, Christ Church, and New Saint Andrews College: Jamin C. Wight. This is particularly necessary because one of the Wight’s victims is now an adult and has spoken out publicly about her abuse and how cruelly Wilson and his community treated her as a victim and survivor.

Like Sitler, Jamin C. Wight was a homeschool alumnus. Wight was attending Greyfriars Hall, a ministerial training program founded by Doug Wilson that, according to the program’s website, “consists of approximately three years of study with two colloquia a year under the oversight of the board of elders of Christ Church.” Between the years of 2000 and 2003, Wight — who was 24 years old at the time — groomed and sexually abused a young girl who was only 13 years old when the abuse began. (Wight was only charged for abuse that occurred over 1 year, from 2001 to 2002, but the abuse survivor today says the abuse actually happened over a span of 3 years, from the time she was 13 until she was 16.) Like Wight, the 13 year old girl was also homeschooled. Wight was a boarder at the home where the girl lived, the home being part of Wilson’s student boarding network among Christ Church’s parishioners.

The abuse wrecked havoc on the abused girl. She began experiencing insomnia, stomach ulcers, and panic attacks; she suffered serious behavioral problems, mood swings, and painful flashbacks. In 2004, when she was 17 years old, she confided in a friend about the abuse. That friend convinced her to go to her parents and the police and press charges. This began a long and difficult process for the abuse survivor, a process which reached fruition on August 17, 2005. On that day, after receiving word of the abuse, the girl’s mother filed a criminal complaint against Wight. A warrant for Wight’s arrest was issued the next day. On August 24, 2005, a search warrant was issued the Latah County, Idaho district court for Wight’s personal possessions that provided evidence of the abuse. Court documents show that on October 28, 2005, Wight was arraigned and informed that three charges were being brought against him, one count of Sex Abuse Against a Child and two counts of Lewd Conduct With a Child Under Sixteen Years of Age. Wight pled not guilty to all three charges. Then on May 12, 2006, Wight’s charges were reduced to a Felony Offense of Injury to a Child. Wight pled guilty to that much-reduced charge and was able to made a deal such that he only had to serve 4-6 months in the North Idaho Correctional Institution.

During his court hearings, documents reveal that Wight and his legal team attempted to argue that the 13-year-old girl he had groomed and abused had consented to their sexual activities. Wight also tried to publicly make a case that a conviction for his crimes would put a damper on his plans to become a Christian youth minister. The prosecuting attorney had to file motions to prohibit both of those lines of argumentation.

Joan Opry, a Moscow, Idaho-based reporter for the digital newspaper New West, attended the sentencing hearing. Opry reports that, “The judge spoke at some length about the immaturity of many of the home-schooled young men of his professional acquaintance — men in the loosest sense of the term. Men in age only.” This remark by the judge has more chilling implications, as Wight’s victim, now an adult survivor, puts the remark in a different context:

Sadly, my story did not have a just ending. My abuser, who was originally charged on 3 counts of “child sexual abuse”, “lewd and lascivious acts”, and “forced sexual contact”, was convicted of “injury to child”- the same term that would have been used had he slapped a child on Main Street. We were encouraged to go to mediation rather than to trial, and at the last minute the visiting judge decided the sentence/label of ‘sexual offender’ was too harsh. He equated what had happened to a “homeschool teenage love affair”, despite the fact that my abuser was 10 years older than me. As a result, rather than being labeled as a sex offender (which was the only outcome I desired), his charge was lowered and he was sentenced to 4 months in Cottonwood prison and a few years on probation (which he was released from early a few months ago).

Court documents show that both Doug Wilson and Peter Leithart, New Saint Andrews College’s Dean of Graduate Studies and writer for First Things, were aware of Wight’s crimes no later than August 2005. At the time of the crimes as well as the court hearings, the victim and her family were members of Wilson’s church Christ Church and Wight was a member “in good standing” at Leithart’s church, Trinity Reformed Church. (Yes, even after Wight’s crimes were made public, Wight continued to be “in good standing” at Leithart’s church.) Yet it was not until November or December (at least two months later regarding Wight and eight months later regarding Sitler) that Wilson alerted his congregation about the predators in their midst. Furthermore, court documents also reveal that Wilson and Leithart fought to keep their conversation with Wight about his crimes out of the court records. This is perfect example of what not to do, as Boz Tchividjian points out:

A church that cares will inform its members of the allegations knowing that sexual offenders often have many victims. It will also encourage them to immediately report any suspected abuse to the police. A church that cares will not limit its efforts to only current members. It will reach out to those who previously attended the church and had interactions with the perpetrator and may have been targeted for abuse. A church that cares will not sleep until each and every person victimized by the offender has been found.

In the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC)’s October 19, 2006 Intelligence Report on Doug Wilson and Steve Sitler, entitled “Idaho Pastor a Hard-Liner, With an Exception or Two,” Wight’s case makes a brief appearance. In that article, after describing Wilson’s mishandling of Sitler’s case, SPLC mentions an anonymous father and daughter and the abuse they experienced and how Wilson also mishandled their case:

Five months after Sitler’s confession, another man who had been boarded by a Christ Church family while he studied to become a minister there was arrested and ultimately pleaded guilty to lewd conduct with an underage girl. When details of the matter came up on a local blog run by a disgruntled Wilson follower, part of the pastor’s response was to liken the blogger to “a sucking chest wound.”

The father of the girl in the second incident told the Intelligence Report that church officials tried to keep that quiet as well. At one point, he said, they threatened to bring him under church discipline for failing to protect his daughter. “It would be like me getting robbed and the police coming over and arresting me because I didn’t have five locks on the door, only one,” he said. “It was just bizarre.”

After SPLC wrote about the Wight case, Wilson took to his blog one month later on September 19, 2006, to publicly attack the father of the abused child. Wilson claimed the father was “neglecting” his daughter because the father dared to make public Wilson’s mishandling of Wight’s abuse:

Let’s just say that I have never seen quite so striking an example of a father neglecting his daughter. But this is not one that you have to take my word for. Just look at the previous paragraph. This is a father who was willing to talk to Intelligence Report about this particular incident because he doesn’t believe his daughter has been through enough. And the ghouls at SPLC were willing to print it.

Fortunately, we can easily resolve this question — was the victim’s father or pastor more neglectful? — because the daughter has publicly spoken up about her abuse. And her account is chilling proof that Wilson, not her father, is the one who made truly horrific errors.

The young girl groomed and sexually abused by Jamin C. Wight is now an adult. As an adult, she began publicly blogging under the name Natalie Rose in 2010 about Wight’s abuse and Wilson’s mishandling of that abuse. Her first post was on July 29, 2010. Rose writes,

I was molested as a young teen. A man living under my parent’s roof, paying his rent by helping with the remodeling of our home, in training at Greyfriar’s Seminary to become a pastor, groomed me, sexually abused me, and molested me from the time I was 13 until I was 16 years old. He was 10 years older than me. A true monster; I was made to feel worthless, as though no one but he would ever love me… I was forced into sexual acts time and time again that no young girl should ever be subjected to.

Rose began to break free from Wight’s grip when she confided in a friend about the abuse. Rose explains that,

When I was 17 years old, a friend whom I had confided in (and who I am forever grateful to) convinced me to go to the police and press charges against my abuser. After much persuasion from her, I went to my parents and to the police. 

Tragically, while Rose received the support of her family, she received little support from her pastor and church: Doug Wilson and Christ Church. In fact, the actions taken by Wilson and his church only added salt to the wound, as they chose to abandon Rose and her family and instead stand by Wight. According to Rose,

The process that followed was long, painful, traumatic and awful. During this time, I was offered little to no support from the church I attended, in fact, on the day of the sentencing my former pastor and my abuser’s pastor sat on *his* side of the courtroom, successfully compounding my own feelings of guilt and shame. I felt terribly alienated and many times regretted [ever] saying anything about the abuse. Sadly, my story did not have a just ending. My abuser, who was originally charged on 3 counts of “child sexual abuse”, “lewd and lascivious acts”, and “forced sexual contact”, was convicted of “injury to child”- the same term that would have been used had he slapped a child on Main Street. We were encouraged to go to mediation rather than to trial, and at the last-minute the visiting judge decided the sentence/label of ‘sexual offender’ was too harsh [emphasis added].

Yes, you read that right. The child abuse survivor’s pastor, Doug Wilson, sat on her abuser’s side of the courtroom during the trial. And Wight’s pastor, Peter Leithart, similarly joined the abuser’s side. I cannot think of a better example of what GRACE’s Boz Tchividjian himself experienced as a sex abuse prosector as described in Kathryn Joyce’s American Prospect article, “The Next Christian Sex-Abuse Scandal”:

“When Tchividjian requested to take on all the district’s child sex-abuse cases, the other prosecutors happily obliged. In time, he established a sex-crimes unit that handled hundreds of cases over eight years. All too often, he says, a pastor would come to court in a supportive role, almost always sitting on the perpetrator’s side of the aisle, not the victim’s. The Wisconsin case made Tchividjian think back on those pastors. He began to realize that he had a calling of his own: to teach the Protestant church to be part of the solution, instead of part of the problem.”

But Wilson, Christ Church, Leithart, and Trinity Reformed Church didn’t just sit on Wight’s side. They also allowed him to remain in good standing at and continue to attend church. This understandably forced Rose (as well as her father) to feel she had to leave. Rose tells Homeschoolers Anonymous in a comment that, “My father left the church after everything that had happened. I also left. My mother and younger sister are still active members of the Christ Church.” Despite her mother and sister staying, Rose says that she enjoys “a full and loving relationship with both of them.”

Furthermore, Wilson and Christ Church believed that Rose was just as much at fault for the sexual relationship as Wight (they believed Rose, at 13 years old, consented to the relationship). They consequently placed Rose under church discipline. Wilson emailed Rose and said he would have to withhold communion from her until she meet with the church elders to discuss why she left the church. However, as Rose tells Homeschoolers Anonymous in a comment, “I wouldn’t do so. I was so traumatized and averse to the idea of interacting with the leaders of the church I don’t even think I responded to any of his emails.”

Meanwhile, since Wight “repented,” he was welcome with open arms. Rose writes,

Rather than being labeled as a sex offender (which was the only outcome I desired), his charge was lowered and he was sentenced to 4 months in Cottonwood prison and a few years on probation (which he was released from early a few months ago). After serving his sentence he was free to go. Free to live and roam wherever he pleased, which just so happened to be right back to Moscow, back to his lovely old church, back to MY town, where he now lives a normal life, owns his own construction company, and eats at his favorite downtown restaurants… Now I see him once every week or two and though I no longer attend the church in which it all took place, many of the friends I still associate are friends with he and his family. While on facebook today I received an invitation to attend the baptism celebration for his most recent child. Years ago, I received letters from the church after I left telling me I was under church discipline and could no longer take communion there, meanwhile my abuser was welcomed back into the fold with open, loving arms…And people wonder why I left.

In the decade since Wight abused Rose, Wight has run into trouble with both his church as well as the law numerous more times. In 2013 Rose wrote that,

The criminal [Wight] is now under church discipline for abusing his wife and children. I’ve also recently found out the girl to whom he was engaged when I went to the police about the abuse (2 years after the abuse ended, right before I turned 18), was also abused by him for the duration of their relationship, which ended promptly after I went to the authorities. Who knows who else he’s abused in his life. I once watched him hold a dog by the neck and smash its head repeatedly against a concrete wall because it didn’t lie down when he commanded it. Minutes later he embraced the dog and madly licked its mouth and tongue.

Katie Botkin, cousin to Geoffrey Botkin’s famous “stay-at-home” daughters Anna Sofia and Elizabeth, also makes reference to Wight’s later crimes:

Doug Wilson’s denial of the realities that made such a situation possible [another Christian Patriarchy and homeschooling advocate, Doug Phillips, sexually assaulting his nanny, Lourdes Torres-Manteufel] only ensures that such things will continue to happen, perhaps even in his own community. They already have, of course. I’m thinking specifically of the case where a young teenage girl was molested, and Wilson saw fit to accept the abuser’s “repentance,” and refused the girl communion because, naturally, she wasn’t a victim either; she was a fornicator, and her refusal to admit to such a charge meant she was unrepentant. Unshockingly to probably everyone but Doug Wilson and those who think like him, the same abuser, who for a long time was a member in good standing at Wilson’s church, has now been charged with various domestic violence suits in Latah County, and his own children are being sheltered from him by the courts [emphasis added].

In light of these recent revelations, Rose reminds readers that these later crimes could have been prevented. If Wilson and his church had not thrown her and her family out of fellowship, if Leithart and his church had listened to her cries and warnings, these other victims could have been protected. Rose writes,

I think this might be the part where I say – I told you so. And not to the innocent individuals who trusted and were consequently in a position to be harmed by the criminal, but to those who I so desperately reached out to, those who I begged to protect others from the horrors I suffered, those who told me it was my fault for not saying no, or my father’s fault for not knowing better, or my mother’s fault for not teaching me to be more ladylike. To those who wrote letters to the judge presiding over the case heralding the character of the criminal and requesting leniency in the sentencing, to those who wrote letters on behalf of the criminal and in them criminalized a young girl, to those who welcomed the criminal back into society whilst shunning and scorning the victim, to those who found it more convenient to close their eyes to something they did not want to see rather than face the truth and take a stand, the sad fact of the matter is that you, each of you, perpetuated abuse.

It is sad, and it is a fact. Doug Wilson, Christ Church, Peter Leithart, and Trinity Reformed Church, by failing Rose and her family, perpetuated abuse — and consequently failed another woman and another family as well. While Rose cannot change what happened to herself or what happened to this other woman and her family, she hopes that by speaking up now, she can save others from future harm:

For speaking out about my abuse I’ve been told that I’m ‘hungry for drama’, ‘living in the past’, ‘sensation seeking’, and a ‘pot stirrer’. I’ll bear each of those labels if it means one hurting girl will read this blog and know that her value is greater than what she’s been made to believe by an abuser and that she, too, can speak out, or if it means that one man in a position of power will look closely at his own motives and make the changes necessary to, insomuch as he is able, ensure the safety and well-being of those who look to him for guidance.

What happened to Natalie Rose is a tragedy. And how Wilson, Leithart, and their churches responded is not only an atrocity; it’s also a sin. It is an atrocity because their response only caused a young woman more pain and trauma, and no justice. And it is a sin because Wilson, Leithart, and their churches refused to follow the path of Jesus by caring for a hurt and wounded sheep. Instead they welcomed a wolf back into their fold and slammed the door on the wolf’s victim. What this communicated to that victim, now a brave survivor, is clear. As Rose asks, “How can an army of people turn away a young girl who needs their love more than anything?” 

How indeed. That is a question that Doug Wilson, Peter Leithart, and every member in their churches and communities who failed a broken young girl will have to answer before God.

To conclude, I’d like to share Natalie Rose’s courageous declaration of fearlessness and freedom. (And Natalie, if you’re reading this, know that we here at Homeschoolers Anonymous stand in solidarity with you and respect your amazing courage. You are always welcome to join the private Homeschoolers Anonymous community; just send us an email.) I hope Natalie’s courage in sharing her story can inspire other survivors to bravely speak up, too:

I will say it now; I am not ashamed, I will not keep quiet, and I care not what anyone thinks of me – I have only myself to answer to… My daughter will know my story and I will equip her with the tools to protect herself.
***

UPDATE, Wednesday, September 9, 2015, 1:30 pm PT:

Several corrections were made this story after Natalie Rose, the abuse survivor bravely speaking up about Jamin Wight, pointed out inaccuracies. First, we stated that that Doug Wilson and Christ Church refused communion to Rose; however, they actually withheld communion until Rose was willing to meet with the church elders, something she refused to do as a result of the traumatizing nature of the whole ordeal. Second, we stated that Rose and her family left Christ Church. This is only partially true. While Rose and her father left the church, her mother and younger sister stayed. Our story has been changed to reflect these clarifications. You can read Natalie Rose’s comment in full here. Accuracy and truth in reporting is important to us at Homeschoolers Anonymous, so we are grateful to Rose for helping us meet these standards.

167 comments on “Pastor Doug Wilson Has Been Involved in Another Disturbing Pedophile Case: Jamin Wight

  1. I’d like to break Doug Wilson over my knee, and I do not mean that metaphorically. What I’d like to do to Sitler and Wight involves a wide variety of power tools, but I won’t go into that here. I will not act out my violence, because I feel that my life has more value than to be thrown away on a trio of worthless dirtbags, but I wish more people felt as I do. We’d see a lot less of this sort of abusive, narcissistic bullsh!t if that were the case.

    Liked by 3 people

  2. Ryan Stollar knocks it out of the park again.

    I think Natalie Rose’s story is so important to expose how NOT innocent Doug Wilson is when dealing with sex abuse situations. Just as he was pro pedophile in Jamin Wight’s crimes, I think he is also pro pedophile concerning Sitler.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Dash, I am still trying to wrap my head around that father calling Doug Wilson about Sitler’s perversion toward his little girl before he called the authorities. Can you say, cult? If it had been my dad, Sitler would have been out of house pronto and police tracking him down. His life would have been made miserable albeit without violence. There are some crimes that deserve the wrath of humans when done to the most vulnerable and innocent of our society. The ones who are throw aways to Doug Wilson and his cult.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Lydia, there are fathers who have literally killed molesters who were caught in the act: http://abcnews.go.com/US/charges-texas-father-beat-death-daughters-molester/story?id=16612071

    THAT^^ is the appropriate response to a pedophile, and nothing less. Would that more men were men, and responded as that Texas father did. Doug Wilson, by comparison, is such a pale, pasty, passionless, feeble-minded, limp-willed, cold-hearted slug of a man that he sides with the criminal instead of the victim. I despise him utterly.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. To all of the sweet people here who battle evil, on behalf in particular of children.
    A very old Mahalia Jackson performance “How I Got Over”

    Like

  6. Disgusting. It’s out of corruption that some church leaders still support him. They have disqualified themselves by it, every single one of them.

    Whether they remain in their positions or not, they can have nothing of value to say about our faith.

    Velour, I love Mahalia Jackson. Thanks for that.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Your are welcome, Patrice, for the music video. I figured we all needed some encouragement in dealing with these heart breaking stories of sexual abuse.

    I have been praying for all of us.

    Liked by 2 people

  8. I’m surprised these perverts are still breathing. If they did anything remotely sexual to any of my nieces or nephews I would be adjusting the optic on my 7.62 x 51

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Dash,

    I hear you. I think many churches are very unsafe places for children. (For those that get it right and have training, background checks, boundaries, carry The Gospel to sex offenders separately, that’s good.)It is typical that we see victims blamed, a victims’ parent blamed, those who want to protect children blamed, and felonious child abuse not treated with the gravity it deserves.

    I was excommunicated/shunned at my former church this past year for disagreeing with the pastors/elders about their friend a convicted Megan’s List sex offender they brought to church, told no one, gave him a position of leadership and trust, gave him latitude to attend all church events (including those with children present), and invited him to volunteer at the church’s 5-days sports camp for children! (The sex offender ran his hands through my friends’ 4-year old son’s hair and I just about hit the ceiling! My friends didn’t know. The pastors/elders said *all good*, no problem. My friends had to pack up and move hours away on the pretext of *being closer to family*, otherwise the pastors/elders would have excommunicated them too for protecting their children from the sex offender.)

    I wonder if these pro sex offenders weren’t issued brains or hearts. I also wonder too…about their secrets.

    Like

  10. Doug, in his writings, thinks they should be killed, too. So I don’t understand why he does a 180 and even sits by them in the courtroom while victim is present. How does he explain that?

    Doug is merely parroting what he knows any sane, reasonable person feels about pedophiles. It’s a subterfuge. I believe he is a de facto pedophile advocate, taking extraordinary measures to build relationships with pedophiles and assist in hiding their crimes and sponsoring their continued access to vulnerable and defenseless kids. His words in print look normal. His actions, conversely, show us all too well who he really is.

    Liked by 3 people

  11. @Velour – Is that a “Fargo reference? Well done.

    I’ve seen a lot of horror films and I have an active imagination. It’s a good thing I’m a relatively “nice” guy, more or less.

    Like

  12. @Dash – “Wood chipper” is in honor of coworker. He and The Mrs. sometimes joke about killin’ each other. Wood chipper is his weapon of choice; poison is hers. Every now and again I tell him, “So, does your wife need help with her order?”

    Like

  13. When the world at large sees what these guys do and the kinds of lives they live, is it any wonder that most want nothing to do with their religion or their ‘gospel’?

    Like

  14. FYI: I reserve the right to slightly modify comments that might put you or me in a legal situation. If you want to say. “Doug Wilson is a ______,” please preface it with “it is my opinion” or “I believe” or “It seems,” etc. I don’t need to go through another lawsuit. They aren’t fun.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. “Furthermore, Wilson and Christ Church believed that Rose was just as much at fault for the sexual relationship as Wight (Wilson and Christ Church believed Rose, at 13 years old, consented to the relationship), and thus placed Rose and her family under church discipline. They refused to give communion to her until she “repented.” Meanwhile, since Wight “repented,” he was welcome with open arms.”

    Reading that portion literally made me sick to my stomach. Enraged and disgusted. No words.

    Like

  16. “Doug, in his writings, thinks they should be killed, too. So I don’t understand why he does a 180 and even sits by them in the courtroom while victim is present. How does he explain that?”

    JA let me take a stab, you see these two people that he is protecting serve a purpose, they are part of the apologetic, we are all part of the apologetic. We fit into the Romans one, or we are the scoffers or we are the true believers or we are the feminists or the homosexuals or the liberals or the heretics or the evolutionists or the atheists or the fill in the blank. We actually do not exist Ie human beings with emotions needs fears hopes loves etc. We are pawns on the chess board with one function to serve the apologetic. Even Christ is just a pawn on the board in my opinion. He has made a stand now he can’t back down his theology will not let him. I have seen it, even with overwhelming evidence to the contrary one cannot admit a mistake especially on doctrine. Of course this is just my opinion and I may well be wrong.

    An aside, I have a very deep confession and I hope I don’t offend, I am sort of jealous of Mr. Wilson and others they seem so sure of their faith, they are so secure in their belief. I am strange this way, where my belief, in acting it out may cause another harm I will curtail my belief especially on what I consider small doctrinal issues, like well most of the Christian religion but that is another post. Again these are just my opinions and observations, one fact, I wish this never happened to the victims ever to every victim I wish it never happened.

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  17. We cannot turn back the clock. We cannot undo what the pedophile has done to us. We can defend future would be victims from harm by exposing the perpetrators and starting early telling our children about good and bad touch. Encourage our children to not be afraid to talk to us.

    To those who have been excommunicated for standing up for victims and against an organization that would defend a pedophile, you wear a badge of honor. A crown awaits you.

    Julie Anne, Thank you for tirelessly and fiercely continuing the fight. I know how reading this article sickened me. I can’t even imagine the gut wrenching you go through filtering through all of the information and writing the post. ((((HUGS))))

    Liked by 1 person

  18. “Wilson and Christ Church believed that Rose was just as much at fault for the sexual relationship as Wight (Wilson and Christ Church believed Rose, at 13 years old, consented to the relationship), and thus placed Rose and her family under church discipline. They refused to give communion to her until she “repented.” Meanwhile, since Wight “repented,” he was welcome with open arms.”

    This is an excellent illustration of the depraved patriarchal thinking in play in this type of abuse. What kind of sick @#$cking scumsack of a non-adult excuse for a boy-man holds a 13-year-old child responsible for the predatory actions of a 23-year-old man? If that was my daughter, or hell, *any* child under my care, I’d have killed the SOB and eaten the consequences. That poor child. To blame an adolescent- what a pack of twisted, slobberingly degenerate thugs.

    Liked by 3 people

  19. Thanks Brenda R for your encouraging words. Thanks for encouraging me as some 200+ people followed orders from the pastors/elders to shun me. Of course they lied..they have about all dissenters. It’s weird. The whole thing. And not *church*.

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  20. One of the best ways, Dash, to bring a church to its knees is to sue them for negligence, intentional infliction of emotional distress, etc. over child sexual abuse cases. A civil jury would be horrified by the case of the 2 year old and the other victims.

    Like

  21. “THAT^^ is the appropriate response to a pedophile, and nothing less.”

    Not even castration? But I do wonder. The penalties are so light for the crime that even our society is complicit. The liberals would scream that it is a mental disease and be totally against the death penalty. I certainly would not trust a jury to let me or anyone else off for the same wirh Sitler or Wight. There are certain cities that would have put the father in the story in prison.

    I think our society as a whole needs to come to grips with this evil and go for zero tolerance for even one instance. You touch the kids– your life as you know it is over. Period.

    When will our society value the totally innocent and vulnerable with punishments that fit this crime? We have work to do.

    And more judges need to say that it is too bad you did not find Jesus before you hurt an innocent. Your pastors recommendation does not impress me.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. “I think our society as a whole needs to come to grips with this evil and go for zero tolerance for even one instance. You touch the kids– your life as you know it is over. Period.”

    You’ve got my vote!! An innocent kindergartener kisses another child, as kids do, (I remember back in the day) on the playground and they are sent home for sexual harassment. An older teen or adult touches a child and they get probation or less. There is no logic to this way of thinking

    Liked by 1 person

  23. “The liberals would scream that it is a mental disease and be totally against the death penalty.”

    Liberal here. Or progressive. Or left winger. I don’t know too many people in person who aren’t. First of all, no one I know is happy about the light penalties. Second, the death penalty should not be applied when the victim was not murdered. If you make sex crimes punishable by death, the perpetrator may reason that he might as well kill his victim. Third, I do think that the brains of pedophiles are wired wrong. As neurologists have gained more tools to study the brain, more and more evidence is emerging that there are differences in the brains of people who are attracted to prepubescent children. That does not mean that they cannot and should not control themselves, but it does mean that pedophilia not fixable.

    Like

  24. Doug Wilson has always reminded me of my father, him and Mark Driscoll.
    Like Doug Wilson my father was pure concentrated misogyny.

    My father did not hate rape, but hated very much raped women and raped little girls. He had every bit as much hatred for a five year old raped little girl as he did for a raped thirty five year old woman.

    My mother was his self-hating unloved submissive little girl slave, Christianity gave him that, that is why he was a Christian.

    Doug Wilson,
    “A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.”

    This is the same sentiment of rapist men that invade other countries and go after little girls to RAPE. Doug Wilson is a sexually sadistic sick vile man. No man that takes their daughter to Doug Wilsons church loves her. These people do not hate rape!

    “For speaking out about my abuse I’ve been told that I’m ‘hungry for drama’, ‘living in the past’, ‘sensation seeking’, and a ‘pot stirrer’. I’ll bear each of those labels if it means one hurting girl will read this blog and know that her value is greater than what she’s been made to believe by an abuser and that she, too, can speak out,”

    These people do not hate sexual abuse.

    Thank You Natalie for speaking out, it means you hate sexual abuse.
    I am so sorry, Much Love;)

    Liked by 2 people

  25. “Doug Wilson must indeed have a vice-like death-grip over his community if he has not yet been sued.”

    As much as we might like to see it happen, I’m not sure there is anything for which he *could* be sued. I don’t know of any laws he has broken with this type of pastoral malpractice.

    The closest Christ Church has come to legal trouble may have been what has been alleged to be their network of illegal boarding houses, as being a zoning issue.

    Like

  26. I am grateful that readers are also considering the role of elders in the sexual abuse stories about Christ Church. They always close ranks around Doug and are silent in public. It is unlikely that readers will know any of them but I am happy to share their names. They deserve the shame attached to their cowardly behavior. Below is the first paragraph of a letter that I sent to them in March of 2011 just after learning about the upcoming Travis – Sitler wedding.
    Ben Merkle (Doug’s son in law is now President of New Saint Andrews College, and Gordon Wilson who is Doug’s youngest brother and a faculty member at New Saint Andrews. Csaba Leidenfrost is a Christ Church supported missionary. Mike Lawyer is Doug’s secretary and runs a “Biblical Counseling” school (after one week of instruction you too can become a become a counselor.) Matt Gray runs a religious outreach program at the University of Idaho. You will of course recognize Ed Iverson’s name, he arranged the Travis – Sitler wedding. Matt Whitling is principal of Logos School, Wes Struble taught at Logos, I don’t know if he is still working there. Jim Nance authors many books for Canon Press (Doug Wilson’s vanity press recently sold to Doug’s son, Nathan Wilson and Nate’s own literary agent, Aaron Rench. John Sawyer runs a driving school that at one point was operated from the grounds of Logos School. I don’t know the current status of the driving school. Dale Courtney’s wife and daughter have taught/teach at Logos School. My point in introducing you to these men is to show the financial dependence they have on Doug Wilson. Recently, the number of elders has expanded significantly. But recent elders were not responsible for the Travis – Sitler wedding.

    “Greetings to Christ Church Elders Dale Courtney, Dr. John Grauke, Matt Gray, Ed Iverson, Mike Lawyer, Csaba Leidenfrost, Ben Merkle, Jim Nance, John Sawyer, Wes Struble, Matt Whitling, and Gordon Wilson, and Pastor Doug Wilson,

    According to the Christ Church constitution: “Under Christ, the authority of the local church is the board of elders or presbyters in session. The elders are collectively responsible for ruling/shepherding [the flock].” How does this spiritual responsibility square with the wedding bans announced repeatedly in recent church bulletin [s] concerning the June 11, 2011 marriage of former New Saint Andrews student and convicted pedophile, Steven Sitler? The publishing of the marriage bans strongly suggests that this union has received the approval and support of the elders, and most especially your pastor, Doug Wilson. It also serves as a cruel example of your willingness to brush aside and minimize the pain this man has caused in your faith community. What a squalid illustration of petty, tin-pot ecclesiastic power run amok.

    Rereading this reminds me that I don’t pull any punches with this collection of sycophants.

    Rose Huskey

    Like

  27. “Liberal here. Or progressive. Or left winger. I don’t know too many people in person who aren’t.”

    That is a shame. Libertarians are quite interesting. :o) it is also good to converse with all sorts outside the liberal bubble.

    Liked by 1 person

  28. One thing I think is interesting is how perfectly normal these guys look. They probably are given a great deal more trust because they don’t have that creepy vibe that a lot of the sex offender registry guys have. Silter especially appears to have a trustworthy appearance. I am honestly scared by how ordinary and unevil these guys look, given how truly wicked they really are.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. “Third, I do think that the brains of pedophiles are wired wrong. As neurologists have gained more tools to study the brain, more and more evidence is emerging that there are differences in the brains of people who are attracted to prepubescent children. That does not mean that they cannot and should not control themselves, but it does mean that pedophilia not fixable.”

    I am trying to wrap my head around this. Pedophiles cannot help it and it is not fixable but we should expect them to control themselves?

    Like

  30. “If you make sex crimes punishable by death, the perpetrator may reason that he might as well kill his victim. ”

    Many do and still don’t pay the penalty. But I know where you are coming from. But it seems a backwards approach not taking into consideration deterrence. There are plenty of molesters whi masquerade as upstanding citizens and family oriented.

    Like

  31. ne thing I think is interesting is how perfectly normal these guys look. They probably are given a great deal more trust because they don’t have that creepy vibe that a lot of the sex offender registry guys have. Silter especially appears to have a trustworthy appearance. I am honestly scared by how ordinary and unevil these guys look, given how truly wicked they really are.”

    Ted Bundy was said to be handsome and quite charming.

    Liked by 1 person

  32. “The liberals would scream that it is a mental disease and be totally against the death penalty”
    Lydia, I am a proud liberal and find this comment quite offensive. Do you think that liberals are incapable of putting children first? Based on the stories about Wilson, Phillips and SGM that have been told here and elsewhere, I would say it is the political and social conservatives that have a problem.

    Like

  33. ” I am trying to wrap my head around this. Pedophiles cannot help it and it is not fixable but we should expect them to control themselves?”

    Yes Lydia. Many people have sexual attractions that are illegal or immoral and manage to control themselves.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. “ydia, I am a proud liberal and find this comment quite offensive. Do you think that liberals are incapable of putting children first?”

    In terms of a death penalty?

    Like

  35. “Yes Lydia. Many people have sexual attractions that are illegal or immoral and manage to control themselves.”

    But we do not even know who they are. That is not the type we are talking about. We are talking about ones who have done horrible damage and are free.

    Like

  36. “ased on the stories about Wilson, Phillips and SGM that have been told here and elsewhere, I would say it is the political and social conservatives that have a problem.”

    All “social conservatives” are Reformed Christians or Christian?

    Like

  37. ” An innocent kindergartener kisses another child, as kids do, (I remember back in the day) on the playground and they are sent home for sexual harassment. An older teen or adult touches a child and they get probation or less. There is no logic to this way of thinking”

    There is a logic to it. If I explain the logic, I am not defending it:

    6.y.o. A kisses 6.y.o. B on the playground – the two really are equals. The school has nothing to lose by sending A home.

    Teacher C molests child D: Now, the school has a reputation to lose if this comes out. Even more so if they ask around if C molested any other students. And C could sue them if false info is spread about him. Besides, child molesters know how to look like really respectable people. On the other hand, victims often act out. If you are putting up the word of a respected adult against a rebellious teen, who is most likely to be believed?

    Like

  38. I am honestly scared by how ordinary and unevil these guys look, given how truly wicked they really are.

    Exactly! I did a presentation on pedophiles in my psych class and one issue I brought up was the old school “stranger danger” theme that so many of us were taught in the media. This is wrong. 93% of offenders are people known to the victim. That means only 7% are strangers. Another disservice the stranger danger campaign did was project an image of an evil looking person as the predator. Both Sitler and Wight are nice looking men. We need to stop the myth of stranger danger when we talk to our kids. :::getting off soapbox:::

    Liked by 3 people

  39. Lydia, what is it about my statements that you object to? 1) that the neurological evidence is accumulating that pedophiles who sexually desire prepubescent children are wired wrong or 2) that pedophiles CAN control themselves and not act on their desires or 3) that pedophilia isn’t curable?

    Like

  40. I have to wonder, wouldn’t TRUE repentance for Sitler look like 1) NOT having children and since he did go ahead and have a son 2) NOT allow there to be any chance that he could abuse and hurt his child.

    The whole mess is just sick and it’s so bizarre that DW can still walk around and pontificate about being persecuted. Oh, I believe he enjoys all the attention and especially the negative because then he can cry persecution.

    I personally don’t see love for “the least of these” expressed in DW’s actions and words. He’s a clanging gong.

    Like

  41. I agree with Lydia00 that preventing and prosecuting child sexual abuse is not a partisan political issue, as I have stated many times before. The Left have no monopoly on caring about children.

    Like

  42. There is not enough evidence to support the idea that child abusers are “born that way”, and even if it is proven that they are, it makes the victims no less harmed. I also fear that such theories will be used to reduce the opprobrium with which they are viewed, because society will be required to accord them “dignity”.

    Like

  43. Retha,
    I sure am glad that you don’t agree with this kind of logic. It is CYA for the school and a travesty for children who are only expressing there innocent feelings for another. In the meantime other children who are being assaulted by true predators are remaining on the street to repeat the offense or find another victim. There just is no accounting for the way people think.

    Like

  44. Keith, I am not arguing that pedophiles are wired wrong and therefore they get to molest children! If you don’t think there is something neurologically wrong, what do you think is motivating Sitler?

    Not all pedophiles molest children (and those that never do because they seek treatment, take meds, and avoid children do deserve to be treated with dignity) and not all child molesters are pedophiles.

    But Sitler is a pedophile and someone who has chosen to repeatedly molest children. He is responsible for his behavior and should pay the penalty. He is dangerous.

    But as to his sexual desires (that he did NOT have to act on) why would Sitler choose his sexual attraction to children? He is despised by most people, he cannot be a pastor as I believe he was studying to be, he has a life sentence hanging over his head. He could easily attract a wife (and did) because he was a pleasant, very intelligent young man with a future. If he had normal sexual desires why not pursue that life?

    If the data keeps accumulating that pedophilia is caused by epigenetic factors (as I predict), then that will be the reality that we have to deal with. Maybe more research will lead to a cure. But I am not worried about the implications for criminal justice. No matter what we might want in life, we don’t get to victimize someone else to get it. I can’t see that changing.

    Like

  45. Keith,

    Child abuse covers a wide range of issues. Pedophilia (which we are speaking of here) is only one issue within that range. No one is advocating that *all* child abuse is due to some issue with the brain. Pedophilia is being studied because of the fact that it seems so hard (impossible) to stop the activity. And, yes, all children should be protected from harm.

    Like

  46. Lydia said,

    I am trying to wrap my head around this. Pedophiles cannot help it and it is not fixable but we should expect them to control themselves?

    The person to whom you were replying my have had in mind stuff like this:

    _Study Finds Pedophiles’ Brains Wired to Find Children Attractive_
    “A new study says pedophiles’ brains are wired differently than most adults’—and that means they could be diagnosed and treated before they’re able to abuse.”

    As for my opinion:
    Not that I think that would allow them to get a free pass, even if their brain is supposedly wired that way.

    Like

  47. nmgirl said,

    Yes Lydia. Many people have sexual attractions that are illegal or immoral and manage to control themselves.

    I really wish more people truly believed this in regards to consensual adult hetero and homosexual singles sexual behavior, because often, the assumption is, by Christians and Non-Christians, both left and right wing, that (non pedophile) adults cannot (sexually) control themselves.

    So (their thinking goes), we (culture in general) should excuse consensual, adult sexual sin, or say celibacy and virginity are not a big deal.

    (I don’t think the Bible teaches that consensual sexual acts between unmarried adults of whatever sexual orientation is acceptable to God).

    nmgirl said (SEPTEMBER 9, 2015 @ 7:08 AM),

    (Lydia):
    “The liberals would scream that it is a mental disease and be totally against the death penalty”

    Lydia, I am a proud liberal and find this comment quite offensive. Do you think that liberals are incapable of putting children first?
    Based on the stories about Wilson, Phillips and SGM that have been told here and elsewhere, I would say it is the political and social conservatives that have a problem.

    If we’re being really honest, most liberals are against the death penalty, for any reason or any crime.

    At least this is what I’ve seen since childhood and have read numerous articles about politics, or watched news programs, or kept up with social commentary.

    In general terms, most American liberals seem to hold the same positions on some topics, like many are against the death penalty, are against tight border and tight immigration policies, against private citizens owning guns…

    Flip side, most U.S. liberals tend to support abortion, large government, homosexual marriage, unfettered immigration, etc.

    Most American conservatives take the other side on those topics, many tend to be against abortion, against open immigration, support private citizens owning firearms, etc.

    I am right wing and a social conservative.

    There are certainly a lot of social conservatives who are hypocrites, while they say they support sexual purity and “family values,” they are never- the- less having affairs themselves, and so forth.

    However, I don’t find the usual liberal “non-” hypocritical position any more noble: they may not condemn sexual hedonism or sexual sin, but some of them will engage in it themselves, unashamedly.
    Or, many liberals I’ve seen will defend the “right” of others to do so (to engage in questionable or immoral sexual behavior), and will insist nobody has a right to be judgmental about someone else’s sexual choices or sexual behavior.

    Like

  48. TRIGGER WARNING BELOW,
    ~I discuss violent crime story of teen guy who killed a little girl with a few crime specifics~
    ————-
    Marsha said,

    Second, the death penalty should not be applied when the victim was not murdered. If you make sex crimes punishable by death, the perpetrator may reason that he might as well kill his victim.

    I support the death penalty, and off hand, I’d have to say I don’t think I’d really have a problem with a state who would enact the death penalty for rapists or child molesters.

    I think rape used to be a death penalty offense in some states until it was repealed several decades ago?

    Anyway, I’ve read numerous stories over the years of child rapists who kill the rape victim, even though there is no death penalty for child molesting / rape.

    I just linked to a story on the other blog about a teen (around 17 yrs old, Austin Sigg I think the name was) who raped and killed an eight year old girl. He raped her, then strangled her, then chopped her arms and legs off, and kept her head as a souvenir.

    I’ve read similar stories over the years, of kids and grown women who get raped then murdered.
    These perverts tend to murder the rape victim anyway.

    Like

  49. There brains must not be wired to ridiculously. They manage to marry a spouse to cover up their abuses of children. So much for the brain wiring theory. They are just evil and act on those thoughts.

    Like

  50. “Lydia, what is it about my statements that you object to? 1) that the neurological evidence is accumulating that pedophiles who sexually desire prepubescent children are wired wrong or 2) that pedophiles CAN control themselves and not act on their desires or 3) that pedophilia isn’t curable?”

    That it does nothing to for a two year old who has been violated and the perp is now walking around free.

    As to all of the above, that is research that will take years and those who choose treatment, (if it works) we will never know about which is a good thing. How does this apply to those who have already damaged lives? That is who I am talking about what the OP is about.

    Here is where I am coming from: This is a most vile, heinous crime that damages the most vulnerable, trusting and innocent people of our society for life in many ways. Even if they move on. YET, instance after instance we see the perps out of prison and walking around. That is not fair. Our justice system has some blame here, too. the judge may be working within the laws as laid out which means are laws are not just.

    Our society as a whole devalues children in this respect perhaps without even realizing it. It is one of those crimes people won’t talk about in detail. . Yes, we have made great strides with child labor laws, protecting children, etc, but in these cases, the rights of the criminal tend to out weigh justice for the victim.

    If we do not value our children more than we value the barbarian who violated them, we are in serious trouble.

    And I think I know the reason: sex. When it comes to sex there seems to be a whole other subconscious view that I will never understand.

    Like

  51. “There brains must not be wired to ridiculously. They manage to marry a spouse to cover up their abuses of children. So much for the brain wiring theory. They are just evil and act on those thoughts.”

    Yes. And they live a long con. they take lots of time and patience to groom. It is all thought out and remediated to a degree that is seriously creepy. There is also the “power” element that is rarely talked about. That is why I have a problem with just focusing on “attraction”.( Can they develop a pill to make chocolate unattractive to me?) That was the big problem with rape thinking years back in ignoring the “power” and control equation.

    Like

  52. Brenda R said,

    There brains must not be wired to ridiculously. They manage to marry a spouse to cover up their abuses of children. So much for the brain wiring theory. They are just evil and act on those thoughts.

    It could be both. I don’t know. I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive.

    Maybe it’s possible for someone to be born with an inclination to do X but still possess the intellect and wiles to cover up their penchant for X, while engaging in X all along.

    I read some books about sociopaths. They lack empathy. They do evil (or at least very insensitive) stuff all the time to other people, and yet they have the smarts to cover it up, because they know that others DO care, and they will get jail time (or get fired from a job) if they are caught.

    Being evil, or doing evil acts, does not always equate to being stupid, in other words.

    Anna Salter has interviewed dozens of killers, child rapists, etc, and they are actually quite clever.

    Velour linked to one of Salter’s audio interviews on here the other say where Salter describes the psychopaths she met and talked to. These psychos manage to fool and sucker prison guards, and they explain to Salter how they con trusting, smart people.

    I don’t think even if it can be proven to everyone’s satisfaction that some people are born or wired to do X, that this also means X is morally acceptable, and everyone should have to agree that X is wonderful.

    I don’t necessarily think homosexual behavior becomes moral just because some may be born that way, even if that can be proven, for instance.

    Some are said to be born more prone to alcoholism, that they are born with an inclination to alcoholism.

    There are groups of men who argue they should be allowed to legally have sex with dogs and horses, and one argument they use is “we were born this way.”

    These situations or examples usually offend or tick off people who support homosexuality, but that’s the reality. You do indeed have people who want to have sex with dogs, or stay drunk all day, who use the same exact argument of ‘but I was born this way, I cannot help what I desire’, which is the same exact argument used by homosexual groups and now transgenders.

    Okay, even if I grant that you were “born” to desire X, it does not suddenly make X moral or acceptable.

    Liked by 1 person

  53. “Lydia, what is it about my statements that you object to? 1) that the neurological evidence is accumulating that pedophiles who sexually desire prepubescent children are wired wrong or ..”

    Actually, this research could very well play into mental illness defenses for these vile molesters before there is any proof of treatment. We all know how this works. Society will be all concerned about their treatment and not the victim.

    And I am not sure what to make of the sole focus on “attraction”. Many of them have adult sex, are married and even have children, too.

    Like

  54. Lydia,
    “Can they develop a pill to make chocolate unattractive to me?”

    If they had one, I’d sure be taking it. I think it has everything to do with violence and control. This whole, “they wanted it, we love each other!!” crap is just that crap.

    Like

  55. lydia said,

    And I am not sure what to make of the sole focus on “attraction”. Many of them have adult sex, are married and even have children, too

    Yep, and this is a point I’ve brought up a time or two at the other blog as well.

    In some study I read (I don’t recall where) a larger percentage of pedos are married men! But, Christians keep suspecting SINGLE adults of being child molesters.

    Maybe some of the younger ones (teen aged) who prey on children are single, but a lot of the older ones are MARRIED GUYS.

    Yet we singles (who are celibate even) get the reputation for being Chester The Molester.
    And celibacy often gets blamed for creating pedophilia – I don’t know how that logical inconsistency works: celibates don’t engage in sexual acts.
    A “celibate pedophile” is like “jumbo shrimp,” a contradiction in terms.

    But Christians (and many Non Christians) like to stick with this nasty stereotype, so churches continue to favor and trust MARRIED MEN over singles.

    Like

  56. I was seeing a lot of stubborness by Douglas Wilson supporters on social media about this story.

    They kept going on and on about the grace of God, “we’re all sinners,” “but Sitler repented,” etc.

    Of course, the same thing crops up in any situation where there is child abuse and a preacher is involved; the fan boys of the church or preacher will minimize the seriousness of child abuse, refuse to hold the abuser or enabling preacher to a higher standard, by screaming about God’s grace, “you’re a sinner too,” “don’t you believe Christ can change a pedo,” etc.

    If he has not done so already, I wish Boz T, or someone else who is respected and competent in this area, would write a definitive smack down essay explaining how “grace / forgiveness/ repenting” theology does not excuse holding pedophiles (even “repented” ones) or their enablers (even preachers) from holding pedos accountable.

    Nor does it (grace, repenting, etc) make it okay for preachers, their fan boys or their churches, to white wash or diminish the sin or crime of pedophilia, and to ignore the victims, to not address victims’ concerns and grievances, to choose to support the pedo during court cases, to blame the victims for having been abused, etc.

    Like

  57. “No it does not play into a mental illness defense since pedophiles know that their behavior is illegal. ”

    Maybe mental illness was not the right word. But there is an undercurrent that “they cannot help their brain wiring” so I can see where that might influence justice as far as sentencing.

    I personally think they are diabolically clever living out a long con and grooming is certainly premeditated. I don’t have any sympathy for those who act on it

    Like

  58. Daisy,
    We are all born with one thing in common…FREE WILL (strike that) 2 things in common, sin being the 2nd. We get a choice!! We make those choices every day. I applaud you for your choice for abstinence. I’m not sure that I would have your endurance. (I’m not sure that is the word I should have used.) Being a personally who was sexually assaulted on many occasions during my young years, I did not feel that I was of value and sex was about all I was worth. I married young and it didn’t get any better.

    Pedophiles/ child molesters, whatever your choice is to call them ruin lives and their lives should be taken as well. I know you don’t disagree. The person who desires drugs, alcohol, homosexuality….. no matter the desire have the ability to overcome it. Believers and unbelievers overcome these issues although my feeling is that without God I would probably have been dead in a ditch a long time ago.

    Liked by 1 person

  59. Julie Anne said,

    Doug, in his writings, thinks they should be killed, too. So I don’t understand why he does a 180 and even sits by them in the courtroom while victim is present. How does he explain that?

    Like married guy Doug Phillips (did I get that name right)? was at one time suggesting that adulterers should get the death penalty (I read that on another site somewhere), and then he was exposed for doing sexual acts against his nanny?

    Do you think he still supported the death penalty for adultery at that stage? Probably not. 🙂

    (Unless he pulled a Bill Clinton twist and declares the particular sex act he did against the nanny was not really adultery.)

    Like

  60. “We are all born with one thing in common…FREE WILL (strike that) 2 things in common, sin being the 2nd. We get a choice!! We make those choices every day.”

    So true.

    Like

  61. Lydia,
    Yes, they can lead what seems to be normal lives and still molest other children. In the case of John Hinton who had 11 children, not one of them was molested but he was molesting other children for most of his life and was also a minister. He now will be in prison for the remainder of his days.

    Like

  62. So why are people getting upset with me when I say that pedophiles are capable of not acting on their desire for children? Aren’t we all in agreement on this?

    Like

  63. Dash said,

    Doug is merely parroting what he knows any sane, reasonable person feels about pedophiles. It’s a subterfuge. I believe he is a de facto pedophile advocate, taking extraordinary measures to build relationships with pedophiles and assist in hiding their crimes and sponsoring their continued access to vulnerable and defenseless kids. His words in print look normal. His actions, conversely, show us all too well who he really is.

    I agree with your assessment of Wilson on all that. I think he has some kind of perverse need to defend pedophiles and thrown their victims to the winds.

    I also agree that some of his writing (certainly not all) looks acceptable on the surface of things, but his actions say something else.

    Like

  64. Marsha: I am highly skeptical of this idea that rapists/molesters are ‘wired that way”. For the longest time the same was said of homosexual orientation, but to date this has not been proven, as even the APA admits. “Wired that way” has also been invoked for other conditions/attitudes/characteristics of behaviour, such as political ideology, and even other crimes such as theft.

    If this type of reasoning is applied to sexual offenders, it is necessarily a factor in mitigation of the offense, even though it does not constitute a defense. Any defense attorney who failed to at least argue that his client should get a reduced sentence because he was “wired that way” would be perhaps committing malpractice. I can hear it now as another of the standard arguments at sentencing: “Judge, my client, a 42 year old nurse, should not go to prison because she is genetically predisposed to having sexual contact with 14 year old boys.” (A recent case I had of a female serial molester)

    Further, it will serve to diminish in the public mind the idea that the defendant is responsible for his or her actions. The defendant was “born that way”, so how can he/she be held responsible. It is really only a step away from toleration, and two steps away from acceptance.

    More on-topic, I think that many pastors have little knowledge about the repetitive nature of these offenses. They are ignorant of the fact that these people commit many offenses before being caught, and are master manipulators. “Curing” them is unlikely, and mostly we can only hope for incapacitation by incarceration or preventing access to children.

    Daisy: Rape was a capital crime in many states of the USA until the last 50 years or so. It was also a capital crime at common law.

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  65. “I hope no one here is implying that I do not think that child molestation is a heinous crime that should be punished severely.”

    Not at all. But I do think the focus on “attraction” is becoming a huge problem in our overall culture. Without getting too verbose there is a real push in middle school to “declare your orientation”. Think of it. 12 year olds are expected to declare their attraction whether to same or opposite sex. Their brains are not developed enough for this! And Administrators do nothing because it is not PC to dare suggest otherwise. This is becoming a huge problem in our society. And I am stunned at the degree with which it is happening. But they are inundated with so much “attraction” talk and sexual messages it is impossible to ignore.

    If a kid does not declare then they are “tagged” by their peers. Example, a girl says, she is not really interested in guys right now and just wants to be friends. That is tagged as a automatic “gay” answer and she is tagged. Why? Because everyone is all about sex and attractions now. Why not the pedophile and children?

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  66. Marsha said,

    So why are people getting upset with me when I say that pedophiles are capable of not acting on their desire for children? Aren’t we all in agreement on this?

    I’m not quite sure how things went hay wire in this discussion, or if you’re the same poster who talked about how pedos might have differently wired brains, which concerned a few people in the thread.

    I think there was just a concern expressed that if you whip out the rationale that “they are just born that way,” (their actions are due to genetics / biology) that is then then used, or will be used, by some defense attorneys to water down or excuse pedophilia, and to get lesser sentences for pedophiles.

    Our society does tend to excuse people for immoral acts or choices if there is a strain of culture or academia who argue that such acts / choices are in-born, and/or due to family of origin / environment.

    I remember back around the 1980s, a lot of liberals were in the news trying to argue that
    1. criminals can’t help being criminals and could not help performing muggings, beating up granny ladies, stealing candy from babies and from robbing convenience store robberies, and therefore
    2. should not receive any punishment, (or only a light punishment), because…

    The poor dears were (choose one or more):
    were abused as children by their parents, grew up in the ghetto, dropped out of school.

    Then the conservatives back in the day pushed back against those arguments. It went on in the media for several years.

    There was also an argument about that back then about should bad folks who do crimes be sent to jails, or should they be sent to psychologists instead? You had one group back then who felt all sorts of empathy or pity for criminals.

    Never mind lots of other people grow up poor, abused, or drop out of school who don’t turn around as teens or adults and rob stores or commit other crimes.

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  67. “Any defense attorney who failed to at least argue that his client should get a reduced sentence because he was “wired that way” would be perhaps committing malpractice”

    This worries me, too, if that thinking goes mainstream quoting a few research studies. Even creating a reasonable doubt they have differently wired brains could be a disaster for victims.

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  68. Lydia said,
    “Even creating a reasonable doubt they have differently wired brains could be a disaster for victims.”

    It wouldn’t work on everyone. As I was saying above, even if I granted that some people are born to do X, I’m not necessarily going to then say, “Why, then, X is fine!”

    There are deviants right now saying they are born to find horses sexually attractive, and they think man-horse sex should be legal.
    They can prove to me all day long that they do in fact have an in-born inclination to find horses sexy and no way am I going to conclude that makes man-horse sex relations dandy. I don’t buy this reasoning with pedophiles or homosexuals, either.

    I do think a lot of the American public is stupid and easily swayed by this sort of thing, so maybe this is a problem.

    We’ve also become very accepting of other people’s life styles no matter what. One of the greatest sins in our culture seems to be judging anyone for anything and so-called intolerance.

    Not that I am on board with the total opposite – sticking my nose in to everyone’s business, micro managing them, etc.
    Maybe there’s a happy medium in there some where.

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  69. I am seeing two disturbing trends with regard to Wight and Sitler’s victims, particularly when factoring Natalie Rose’s story into the discussion:

    1. Wilson & Co. view child victims as “short grown-ups” who are mentally equivalent to mature adults and capable of rendering consent. They are therefore capable of practicing seduction and coercion, and they are therefore equally culpable in the actions of their abusers.
    2. Wilson & Co. simultaneously view child victims as impervious meat objects who are not yet developed enough to experience real pain or suffering as a result of abuse, and who therefore have no business behaving as if they experience long-term repercussions from abuse. “So someone touched you badly, big deal. Get over it.”

    These two notions are glaringly contradictory, and yet somehow they coexist and are consistently manifest in the response to the victims. The victims are not being granted the full dignity of human status, they’re being treated like wildly inaccurate theoretical caricatures of someone’s misinformed notion of what a child is.

    Liked by 2 people

  70. Daisy,

    “I do think a lot of the American public is stupid and easily swayed by this sort of thing, so maybe this is a problem.”

    One problem with this would be that the majority of the American public wouldn’t have to agree with it. One majority ruling of SCOTUS would over rule the rest of us.

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  71. “Our society does tend to excuse people for immoral acts or choices if there is a strain of culture or academia who argue that such acts / choices are in-born, and/or due to family of origin / environment.”

    Determinism runs all through society in many variations. Rarely do we see much focus on individual responsibility or accountability. There is a soft discrimination of thinking less of a person’s ability when it comes to race, etc. Those who want desperately to instill individual responsibility and preparing for upward mobility are considered mean.

    Liked by 1 person

  72. Daisy, yes I am the person who thinks that the evidence is moving in the direction of showing that the brains of pedophiles (not all rapists or child molesters) is wired differently as a result of epigenetics (not genetics). I also think that they CAN and SHOULD control their behavior and should be held accountable if they don’t. It is no different than anyone else not acting on immoral, illegal or even just unwise sexual attractions. Individual accountability needs to be stressed.; Lydia is absolutely right.

    I agree that should the research come down solidly on the size of the brain wiring, it could create some law enforcement difficulties. And it is better to think of them now and not later. For one thing, it’s time to stop enacting legislation that forbids discrimination on the basis of ‘sexual orientation’ and use language which refers to same sex couples. As you point out, this should depend on just who or what someone is sexually oriented to! Consenting adults is one thing, children, the mentally impaired, and animals must be protected.

    I don’t know how other states manage mitigating and aggravating factors for a judge to take into consideration but in my state there are specific guidelines. I was on a committee years ago which recommended mitigating and aggravating factors in juvenile justice. I think that we should make it clear that we as a society are opposed to brain dysfunction being a mitigating factor which lets pedophile child molesters go free or get less prison time or less time in a secure institution.

    I also want to clarify again that not all pedophiles molest children and not all child molesters are pedophiles. Some exploit children because they cannot attract adults and some, as Brenda pointed out are motivated by power, control and sadism.

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  73. “also want to clarify again that not all pedophiles molest children and not all child molesters are pedophiles. Some exploit children because they cannot attract adults and some, as Brenda pointed out are motivated by power, control and sadism.”

    Now I am really confused. What difference does “why” they harm children make? Or what their motivation is when it comes to justice for the victim? Why the emphasis? To what end for victims?

    As I have pointed out– if they do not molest children, we know nothing about them. They are not even on the radar. We have two men who have damaged the innocent and vulnerable in the OP who received very light sentences from the legal system. Why? What does that say about our society and legal system that claims to care about children?

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  74. Regarding the discussion up the thread about could Wilson’s church be sued for these sex offenders’ crimes against children. In most states, under negligence laws, the answer is *yes*.

    Wilson’s college and church could be sued under a variety of personal injury laws, negligence, not doing proper background checks, negligent infliction of emotional distress, intentional infliction of emotional distress, etc.

    http://www.clearwatertribune.com/news/online_only_news/idaho-supreme-court-rules-survivors-of-boy-scout-and-mormon/article_45674bbe-5035-11e5-83c1-674476584a73.html

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  75. Marsha: I think any attempt to remove “sexual orientation” and replace it with ‘same-sex attraction” etc. is doomed to fail. The various LGBT groups would oppose it strongly. I hope I am wrong in this regard.

    Personally, I do not believe that any alleged biological predisposition to offend should be taken into account, as the victim is no less assaulted. But t think defense counsel will use it, and such evidence would likely be admissible in many courts.

    Lydia00: I don’t really understand the system in Idaho. Apparently a life sentence can be suspended after serving a certain portion of it, and then the criminal is subject to supervision, like a probationer or parolee.

    Re: Sentence length, although there have been improvements in the law, child molestation cases can be among the most difficult to prosecute. It can be a tough row to hoe when there is no physical evidence and no admissions/confessions from the defendant. There is also the issue of pressure being put on the child by other parties. We recently had a case where the defendant had joined a church and groomed two victims. He tried the whole spiritually abusive angle that ” a believer should not take another believer to Court”. He also told his pastor that he and one of the children “had repented” fitting in with what Dash posted above, 1)…”victims as short grown-ups”. Dash explained that well.

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  76. Lydia00: Good point re: those who do not molest. We never know, so their “dignity” is not an issue. And “why’ does not really matter once the crime has been committed.

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  77. Here is a good review of the state of knowledge about pedophilia: http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2015.00344/full

    Lydia, it makes a difference because most people who serve a sentence for child molesting eventually get out. And many of them find their way to churches and claim repentance. And in some of those churches, like Velour’s former church, the leadership thinks that repentance cures pedophilia and do not hesitate to let the offender work with children. They consider their knowledge of past and sometimes even present offenses to be confidential and keep the information from the church members.They see the problem only as a sin issue (ie, we are all sinners, all sins are equally bad) which can be dealt with by repentance and they do not understand that these desires do not go away and children’s safety should not depend on whether a pedophile chooses to control himself.

    Liked by 1 person

  78. Marsha,

    I know where you are coming from but it is also why I think the legal system really gets this one wrong. Keith made a good point about problems prosecuting but in the instances we are discussing there was a conviction and they got off pretty light, anyway. We cannot blame everything on Wilson’s cult.

    In my view, churches are willfully ignorant at this point. I don’t buy into the argument they are not properly educated. . Some of it is deterministic thought that all sins are the same, and confession cures, etc, which pervades a large swath of Christianity no matter what the denomination. (They tend to confuse confession with repentance) I am not convinced a truly repentant child molester could live with themselves. That is how vile it really is.

    So I am still not sure why attraction or exploitation matter so much when the end result is a precious innocent life damaged for the perps self gratification no matter if it is exploitation or attraction.

    What I am seeing out there everywhere– in the legal system and in churches and in social programs is a focus on the predator–whether it is about his/her problem, needs, etc. Why can’t we throw away the key to the prison cell– at the very least. Why was Sitler walking around?

    Where is societies proper focus on the victim. That is what concerns me the most. It seems when it comes to sex crimes we tend to lose our common sense.

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  79. @Daisy:

    There are deviants right now saying they are born to find horses sexually attractive, and they think man-horse sex should be legal.

    As a veteran of both Furry Fandom and My Little Pony Fandom, all I have to say about that one is “WHY IS IT ALWAYS HORSES WITH THESE GUYS?????”

    Liked by 1 person

  80. @Daisy:

    (Unless he pulled a Bill Clinton twist and declares the particular sex act he did against the nanny was not really adultery.)

    Douggie ESQUIRE already did, Daisy.
    “I did not know that woman in a Biblical sense.”
    So since he never stuck Tab A in Slot B (only gave her spooge showers, something you normally only find in porn flicks), he can wipe his mouth and say “I Have Not Sinned”.

    And Got Hard made the same claim — no Tab A in Slot B, ergo no adultery, ergo no sin.

    (There’s a HIGHLY NSFW novelty song and music video by a “Garfunkel & Oates” titled “Loophole” on just that subject. Though the (loop)hole in the song is more Mark Driscoll #2 than Douggie ESQUIRE.)

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  81. @Lydia00:

    And I think I know the reason: sex. When it comes to sex there seems to be a whole other subconscious view that I will never understand.

    S*E*X makes people not only stupid but crazy.
    That’s the only explanation.

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  82. Lydia, one of the current controversies with sex offenders is the criminal justice system petitioning for civil commitment after a sentence is served. The argument is that these offenders are too dangerous to the public to release. Uh yes, so why a sentence that is too light in the first place?

    It is not just churches that don’t get it. Judges are all over the place. I remember a judge who blamed a five year old for her own rape by a stepfather; he said that her sitting in his lap was provicative. He was recalled fortunately. And recently a judge blamed a 14 year old who was molested by a teacher in his thirties; he said she was mature beyond her years and invited the abuse. This despite the fact that she was so troubled she killed herself. The teacher got thirty days. Or The judge in Wright’s case who called Natalie’s abuse a teenage romance

    Then you get judges that give heavy sentences to 19 year olds who have sex with 15 year old girlfriends and designate them sex offenders for life. I can across a case like this in my work. The couple later married and had children and he was never able to go to his children’s school.

    Perhaps Keith can speak to the issue of this lack of consistency because I sure don’t understand it.

    Liked by 2 people

  83. Re: The pic up top of Short Eyes #2, Jamin Wight:

    I have NEVER seen such an “I WIN, You Stupid Suckers!” smirk in my life.
    Except maybe my younger brother (who I am convinced from experience is a narcissist and sociopath).

    THAT is the smirk of a sociopath when he is away from any witnesses except his prey and can afford to drop the Angel of Light mask.

    Liked by 2 people

  84. Here are the interviews with Dr. Anna Salter from the Corrections One program called “Tier Talk”, a professional organization for those who work in prisons, about sex offenders. This Part 1 of 5 interviews about sexual predators.

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  85. I think we as a society need to work to harden our understanding of what childhood and adolescence really mean. I work with kids across the entire age spectrum, and I have watched countless kids grow up while I worked with them across a span of several years. Teenagers are even *less* accountable and coherent, in many respects, than preteens, elementary and preschool children, and in many ways are even more vulnerable because they are beginning to have the *appearance* of autonomy but without the requisite mental machinery.

    Teenagers are rolling balls of catastrophic hormonal confusion. Watching a teenager trying to reason through their emotional turmoil is like watching a drunken squirrel attempt to carry a pineapple home. It is for that reason alone that to attempt to hold a 13-year-old girl equally responsible for the behavior of a 23-year-old depraved and perverted predator is blindly irresponsible. A 13-year-old doesn’t know which way is up. A 23-year-old pervert knows exactly what he is doing.

    Liked by 1 person

  86. Marsha, just musing but I wonder if our judicial system lowered the boom if that would make some churches think twice. The church tends to respond to culture either way.

    Unjust judges are a real problem. But again, you see this with sex crimes a lot.

    I know a female teacher, age 29, caught having sex with a 15 year old student in her car parked at a park. She was fired and the judge sentenced her to probation. She had 2 kids under 8 and her husband a doctor.

    I wish our system spent the money on victims and that includes medical research. Anything to help them get strong. And fight back.

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  87. *I think we as a society need to work to harden our understanding of what childhood and adolescence really mean. ”

    Bingo. Instead of spending money to study pedophile brains, study brain development more. I have read some articles on it which only made me see crimes against children more stridently. This is the sort of offense needed in court. The long term damage done. And the stealing of normal development. It really is physical abuse.

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  88. Lydia00: The 29 year old teacher example raises the issue of disparate sentencing of female sex offenders, as well as the question of whether the rate of female offending is increasing.

    Dash: i like the drunken squirrel illustration!

    Liked by 1 person

  89. “Sitler had a long history of sexually abusing and preying on numerous young children, allegedly including children at R.C. Sproul Jr.’s Highlands Study Center in 2003.”

    Wow! Is this common knowledge? I don’t see how it could be. Something that big really should be. We had friends in Sproul’s church during that time and I’m 99% sure no one was told by Sproul that a paedophile had been in their midst possibly preying on their children. There had to be some kind of major cover up for this to happen, and that cover up must have come from Sproul. Sitler was prosecuted for his crimes in Idaho. Why wasn’t he ever prosecuted for molesting children in Virginia? Obviously someone would’ve had to step forward and report it to the police. Sitler molested multiple children on multiple occassions in multiple states. He needs to be in prison the rest of his life, or at least a whole lot longer than the one year he got. Not much chance of that happening if people like Sproul and Wilson cover up for Sitler and they won’t encourage (maybe they even discouraged?) their church members to file charges. I’m so disgusted right now.

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  90. Keith, pedophilia among women is still very rare but we are seeing a lot more cases of women molesting young teenaged boys. I don’t know whether the behavior is increasing or whether as a society we are recognizing that this behavior is damaging to boys as well as to girls and so it is just getting reported more. I think in the past, the response was more like, “Lucky guy; wish I had had a teacher like that.” I still hear men say this.

    Liked by 2 people

  91. “So why are people getting upset with me when I say that pedophiles are capable of not acting on their desire for children? Aren’t we all in agreement on this?”

    Marsha, I think the posters are scared of science. That’s what it gets down to. But just like alcoholics who don’t drink, there are people who are sexually attracted to children who do NOT act on their desires.

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  92. “Lydia,
    I think I am confused also. I don’t see a major difference between pedophiles and child molesters.” pedophiles are sexually attracted to children. Child molesters are more about the power trip.

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  93. “Lydia00: The 29 year old teacher example raises the issue of disparate sentencing of female sex offenders, as well as the question of whether the rate of female offending is increasing.”

    It seems to be increasing. I think it has a lot to do with the over sexualization of our culture. Sex is now a huge topic at church with smokin hot wives and young pastors talking about sex a lot. Then popular culture is engrossed with it and very PC. . And privacy is a thing of the past. Even your tweens doctor has to mention it on visits. And encouraged to get the vaccine.

    And trust me, I think the purity culture is just as bad and creates the same problem with another method.

    What can we do? Our legal system is sending a message to victims and it is not a good one.

    Liked by 2 people

  94. Marsha and Lydia: Re: inconsistencies in sentences. Most states accord judges wide latitude in sentencing. The two examples you mention sound especially egregious. Are your judges elected?

    The 19 and 15 year old example reminded me that in my state there was once a provision of the law whereby the Defendant was discharged from liability if he/she married his the other party. This provision was repealed several years ago, and I do not know why. it makes sense to me when the parties are close in age.

    Regarding sentence range, the goals of sentencing are said to be 1) Retribution 2) Rehabilitation 3)Special deterrence (preventing this Defendant from reoffending) and 4) General Deterrence (sending a message to others who might be tempted to commit such a crime).

    In practice, prior record, contrition, victim input and injury to victim have played the greatest roles in cases I have had. It also makes a big difference who the judge is, as you have illustrated. I used to wonder if judges who were weak on this type of crime had a problem believing it happens, or secretly did not think it was a big deal. Some are concerned about the so-called moral panic created by the day-care cases back in the late 80’s, wherein innocent persons were convicted.

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  95. ” I think the posters are scared of science. ”

    ????

    Can science tell us what difference the reasons why victims were horribly harmed, make to them? Should sentencing be different based on their “reason” for the crime?

    Why can’t it just be evil?

    Did you miss my comment on studying adolescent brain development for offense? I am all for science. I would love to see it used to help victims more.

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  96. * I think in the past, the response was more like, “Lucky guy; wish I had had a teacher like that.” I still hear men say this.*

    You are right. Had she not been his teacher, you have to wonder how it would have been handled.

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  97. In practice, prior record, contrition, victim input and injury to victim have played the greatest roles in cases I have had.”

    I want to see more resources go for victim input and injury.

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  98. I am not scared of science, i do fear judges being swayed away from. I fear for the victim of molestation who gets assaulted by some pervert and hangs tough through the whole process, only to have the judge give the defendant probation. It is difficult enough for these kids.

    Liked by 1 person

  99. @Keith,

    Hopefully the State of Idaho will change their sentencing laws. It is unconscionable that Sitler was supposed to serve a nearly life sentence for child sexual abuse of multiple children, he had sexually abused many children across the U.S., and he was let out of prison. How did this happen? What is going in in their state?

    Liked by 2 people

  100. Lydia: We have jury sentencing in Virginia which means that if they find the perv guilty, a second phase of the trial occurs. At this phase we can put on the victim, victim’s family, etc. to testify to the impact of the crime on the victim. We also have better resources than we did in the 90’s, with trained interviewers at the Child Advocacy Center, and good training for judges and prosecutors. So progress has been made, but you are right, these should be the focus.

    NMgirl: I meant to put in the comment above that I feared judges being swayed from justice. It has nothing to do with “fear of science”.

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  101. Velour: I don’t really understand the Idaho system. We do not have parole in Virginia (abolished in 1995), but it sounds like a parole-type system. I can do a little research on it if you would like.

    Liked by 1 person

  102. Lydia00: Our judges are picked by the legislature. With elected judges, the people have a more direct way of addressing lenient sentencing. That being said, God has blessed us with a wonderful Circuit Court judge. I just hope she does not go up to the Court of Appeals!

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  103. Hi Keith,

    That would be great if you could do some research on Idaho’s corrections system and share your findings with us here. (I don’t have time at the moment.) Thank you.

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  104. @Marsha:

    “Lucky guy; wish I had had a teacher like that.” I still hear men say this.

    It’s the Beavis & Butthead Response:
    “HE SCOOOORED! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH!”

    Outside of Beavis & Butthead, you can also hear that reaction on talk radio.

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  105. For Lydia and Marsha

    I don’t know if this is of interest to either one of you, but in the course of reading up on some topic a year or more ago, I found an article that had an interview with some person (a lady, I think) who studies pedophiles.

    She found groups of adult pedophiles who admit to being attracted to children, but they say they don’t act up on it (they don’t actually molest kids).
    Some of these guys are MARRIED men who have biological children of their own (whom they say they do not molest).

    Some of these guys set up some web site to discuss all this, I am pretty sure. I can’t remember the name of their site, and I’m not sure I want to go do a google for it, lest all sorts of freaky nasty stuff should turn up that I really don’t want to see.

    I think their site was called something akin to “Pedophiles of Valor,” “Harmless Pedophiles,” or “Pedophiles with Honor” – something about pedophiles and some word that describes that they don’t act on their impulses.

    Oh yeah, years ago, there was some pedo who had a blog or site where he admitted to having sexual feelings for kids. He would post photos of kids on his site that he saw while out in public, these were kids he found “attractive” he said.

    He claimed he never actually touched these kids, he just liked to snap their photos and share them on this site (these were kids fully clothed, out in public in play grounds and what not)

    Parents heard of this site, raised holy hell, contacted various authorities, but the site could not be pulled, nor the guy tossed in jail because technically he was not doing anything illegal. But it was creepy as all get out.

    Sorry I cannot remember the guy’s name or site. This was years ago.

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  106. DW, Scott Brown (NCFIC), Doug Philips (VF), Bill Gothard (ATI) and others of their ilk are posing as great teachers. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing. If your church leadership has anything to do with them I’d recommend you run for the hills. If your church is a member of the NCFIC talk with your pastor. He may not know the roots of the organization. These men are all excellent salesmen. I recently spoke with a pastor from Oregon who knew nothing of Scott Brown’s history. Trust me it is NO good. He and DW are likely friends.

    Liked by 1 person

  107. TRIGGER WARNING
    ~~I discuss graphic details towards bottom of this post involving Crush Films (animals killed for the viewing pleasure of sexual deviants on film)~~
    ——-
    HUG said,

    As a veteran of both Furry Fandom and My Little Pony Fandom, all I have to say about that one is “WHY IS IT ALWAYS HORSES WITH THESE GUYS?????”

    Sometimes it’s dogs or dolphins.
    Someone, can’t remember if it’s a lady or a guy, claimed to be having a love affair with a dolphin, said he/she had sex with a dolphin.
    There was a guy (was this in Germany maybe?) who said he was in love with his German Shepherd dog and wanted to marry her, and I think he was having regular sex with this dog and was in a court case arguing he should be allowed to marry the dog.

    Also very disturbing – people who get off watching living dogs, puppies, kittnes cats, mice, rabbits, and other animals being tortured and killed on video while some half dressed woman abuses the animals. These are called Crush videos.
    One big case updated lately is a woman out of Texas who hacks animals to death on video while she is half nude, she cut off their paws with meat cleavers, hacked into their heads, urinated on their corpses after, she pierced out a cat’s eye with a heel on high heel shoe, she suffocated kittens to death, etc.

    I think these people are just absolutely sick, so sick I cannot even put it into words, and the people who get other jollies watching, who buy this trash are just as sick.
    There is a group of people who are dedicated to stopping animal crush films and video.
    You can visit their site here (which usually does not feature photos of dead animals on their home page):
    _STOPCRUSH.ORG International_

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  108. I am familiar with the site, Daisy. There is also a group of psychiatrists who have banded together to try find a preventive treatment for pedophiles. Horrified young people were coming to them for treatment and they had to idea what to do other than management. I actually heard about the group here on SBB when some guy came on to condemn the psychiatrists. He said their real agenda was to normalize and legalize child molesting which is not true. He might be a follower of Wilson who writes that therapists and secular people and just about everybody outside his church who condemns child molestation and incest have a secret agenda. We are only pretending to hate child sexual abuse to blame churches for mishandling it and to hate father predators so that later when we try to normalize it our biggest opponents (the church and fathers) will already by discredited and not be able to successfully oppose our heinous plot. Yes, he really wrote that.

    Liked by 1 person

  109. Marsha said,

    It is not just churches that don’t get it. Judges are all over the place. I remember a judge who blamed a five year old for her own rape by a stepfather; he said that her sitting in his lap was provicative.

    I read in the news a few years ago a judge who blamed a rape victim for being raped.

    There was something to the story about how she was wearing a fashion called “skinny jeans.”

    The judge was saying he thought she must want to be raped because she was wearing those jeans, or if she had not wanted to be raped, she should have worn pants more difficult for a man to remove – or something. It was incredibly victim-blaming to an absurd degree.

    You said,

    “And recently a judge blamed a 14 year old who was molested by a teacher in his thirties; he said she was mature beyond her years and invited the abuse. This despite the fact that she was so troubled she killed herself. The teacher got thirty days.”

    Yeah, I remember reading about that in the news. It is so disgusting.

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  110. nmgirl said,

    Marsha, I think the posters are scared of science. That’s what it gets down to.

    I’m undecided on that part of the topic, but to be fair to the 2 or 3 people in the thread who were disagreeing about the “how are pedo brains wired”, it’s not that they are afraid of science, but rather, what will happen if that science is used to defend pedophiles (if I am understanding their position correctly).

    I can just see defense lawyers using the “but your honor and the jury, my client can’t help raping kids because he was born that way, go easy on him!” as a strategy that might get a reduced sentence.

    I don’t think that is a baseless concern or an anti-scientific position.

    Like

  111. This is what I’ve seen only rarely implemented in clubs and churches that helps to prevent child abuse. First, the organization does thorough background checks on all the staff and any volunteers who help with youth. Second, they make sure that more than one adult volunteer is with more than one child at all times. No one on one interaction in any classroom or any other setting. Third, have a protocol for reporting anything suspicious. Fourth, make sure all adult volunteers and child members are trained in these security measures (no one on one contact, etc.) Fifth, have a sign in and out system wherein the children leave with the proper persons (especially with toddlers.) None of this takes that long. I think the expense of the background checks is often an excuse not to do so. But that is a bogus excuse. Most mega churches have plenty of money to afford it. And for any poorer churches it would still be worth the investment and a good advertisement that “hey we have a church that is safe for your children.”

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  112. Okay, I know it’s not very Christian of me to say this, but when I thought of Doug Wilson today I thought of the They Might Be Giants song, “When Will You Did?”

    Like

  113. Lydia said,

    think it has a lot to do with the over sexualization of our culture. Sex is now a huge topic at church with smokin hot wives and young pastors talking about sex a lot. Then popular culture is engrossed with it and very PC.

    I’m over 40 and celibate, never had sex. And yes, churches are just as obsessed with sex as secular culture.

    Most sermons in evangelical churches have titles such as, “How to Spice Up Your Married Sex Life.”
    Like as a celibate adult I really, really need to have that shoved in my face every time I go to a church, watch Christian TV, or visit a church blog.

    But Christians are constantly pontificating about and extolling the greatness of marriage ‘n’ sex.

    Like

  114. Lydia, my old church leader came to our church from a failed church plant and began what he called (in a telephone interview on the NCFIC site) a ‘5 year deprogramming plan’. Unwittingly I warned him about Scott Brown and Doug Wilson. Re SB he told me, “He’s one of the godliest men I know”. Re DW he said, “He’s a friend of mine.” We are now gone but very hurt as he was very likable. Just like these other men.

    Like

  115. Wilson and Christ Church believed that Rose was just as much at fault for the sexual relationship as Wight (Wilson and Christ Church believed Rose, at 13 years old, consented to the relationship), and thus placed Rose and her family under church discipline. They refused to give communion to her until she “repented.” Meanwhile, since Wight “repented,” he was welcome with open arms.

    In other news, Pope Forgives Molested Children

    Like

  116. @David C,

    Whew…the article was dated in 2002 about the then Pope. Hopefully the churches will get better about handling cases of child sexual abuse. Having the internet, Twitter, and Facebook definitely helps.

    Like

  117. How sad is it that Doug Wilson’s blog actually reads like a 13-year-old page from The Onion?

    I’m going to dig around on the Landover Baptist website later, I bet they have some relevant commentary as well.

    Liked by 2 people

  118. Velour,
    I was glad to see that you found the link to Jimmy Hinton’s story. His mother Clara Hinton also writes her story on Finding a Healing Place. Both, fight in the battle to educate the church and advocate for children to be free from pedophiles. John Hinton is a vile man and is in prison where he belongs. He went way, way out of his way to groom the parents of children so that he had access to small children, even driving 3 hours to babysit for free. The Hinton’s stories have helped me understand why others did not see my pain while being used by a pedophile. To this day John Hinton does not see where he did anything wrong.

    Liked by 2 people

  119. Pope forgives molested kids.

    That is about the most sickening thing he could have done. In one action, probably in front of millions, he has said that they caused what was done to them. If they needed forgiveness for any thing else, that would only come through Jesus Christ, not the pope.

    Like

  120. Lydia,
    You mentioned the ‘over-sexualization of our culture’ in addressing a serious problem within the church as well as what is called ‘those worldly sinners.’

    We attended a bible(?) study at a local conservative church discussing the topic of marriage. In one session, we watched a video on sex with other couples and afterwards engaged in discussion. One of the key points of the video was “Sex begins in the kitchen.” Mere words cannot express how uncomfortable, how inappropriate, and how ungodly the video and the conversation that ensued afterwards, was in the presence of the other church goers. The public forum was not a place for such detailed discussion of one’s sex lives between heterosexual couple, many of who ended up separating in the following years.

    We DO live and breathe in an over sexualized culture and frankly, it seems to be getting worse and will get worse before Jesus comes back again. Even in our farming publications, we have the displeasure of reading articles concerning the topic of sex, amongst of the interesting articles on machinery, equipment, farming methods, and supporting agriculture. One article in particular that I will never forget, was written by a charismatic/Pentecostal denominational woman who submits her columns from time to time discussing family life and moral issues. Some of her articles have been wonderful, but this one article lost me as a reader of her column forever, never to return.

    The last article that I read from this churched woman, spoke highly of a man named Alfred Kinsey and his ‘positive research’ concerning sex. I was sick to my stomach and my heart burned with anger of days and days and what I should have done, was email her a private rebuke concerning this sick man.

    Many of you know who Alfred Kinsey is, but for those of you who don’t, here are a few details of his life and the impact he/it has had on our culture.

    Alfred Kinsey (1894-1956) Obtained his “PHD” from Harvard University in entomology, becoming a worldwide expert on the gall wasp. He was strongly committed to Darwinian evolution, releasing his most famous books “Sexual Behavior in the Human Male” in 1948 and “Sexual Behavior in the Human Female” in 1953. These books “claimed” to be sexual studies, however they were far from it, but instead proved to be sexual propaganda to convince our culture that sex is appropriate and acceptable, regardless of whether it is between people of the same sex, opposite sex, adults with children, or humans with animals.

    Continued in next comment:

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  121. Alfred Kinsey continued:

    Due to the aberrant details of his perverse research for they are deeply disturbing, I will not mention them here, the research is available to anyone via the internet. Use your anger barometer carefully for the articles will make the average believer in Christ fume with tears of utter disbelief and brokenness.

    Kinsey was a highly educated, powerful, and well respected man within the realm of education, he wrote, “that children are born sexual but that religious tyranny suppresses their otherwise natural sexual activity. He believed that as long as a child gave “consent,” it was completely normal and healthy for adults to engage in sexual activity with children regardless of the age of a child.

    Our culture, including the church system, has been soaking up the influence of this wicked man for years and years, believing the lies he researched in the name of science, junk science.

    Many within our church systems, embrace and promote Kinsey and his twisted research as the topic of sex has become the worshipful master in many of the minds from pastor, leadership, to the least of the lower laity.

    As our culture becomes increasingly dark, I have but one concern to ask, “Is there a difference between the church culture and all of those worldly ‘sinners’ out there concerning the perversion of sex? In all honesty, I have seen and heard (out of the heart the mouth speaks….yes, even in the area of sex, and I hate it when men in the church make sexual comments about the women there) absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between the two, for perversion in the church is at an all time high.

    Liked by 1 person

  122. Katy,
    I had never heard of this man, but have heard of such research. Churched or unchurched there is no difference unless the Spirit of Christ has truly entered the heart. Even then evil tries harder to get a grasp on that person. It would not surprise me at all if Alfred Kinsey’s books are not in the library’s of many Seminaries with the premise of helping a potential pastor know what they may encounter in their church one day.

    In many cases it is the highly educated, powerful and well respected men that are the most twisted. All of that is so useless in the end when that man has perverted everything that God says is wrong.

    Like

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