Failure to Report Crimes, LAWSUITS, Mandatory Reporting, Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches, Spiritual Abuse

Church Leaders Who Revictimize Abuse Victims and Theology That Harms Both Victims and Perpetrators


Church leaders revictimize abuse victims when they fail to respond appropriately to abuse. Theology can be used to minimize the sin of perpetrators and sometimes blames abuse victims.



I’ve been following the story of Pastor Steve Wingfield at First Christian Church of Florissant and was notified that the largest paper in St. Louis published a follow-up article, The battle for First Christian Church of Florissant. It is important for people to see the likely fallout when church leaders fail to be true shepherds. As a result, First Christian Church of Florissant is dwindling in numbers as the remaining members try to make sense of the mess created by their church leaders.

The story involves a former youth minister, Brandon Milburn, who is now serving 25 years in prison for sexual crimes against minor boys and how Pastor Wingfield failed to report and respond appropriately when members brought the sexual abuse allegations to his attention.

In April, Pastor Wingfield filed a defamation lawsuit against several members who spoke out against him publicly on social media. Wingfield later dropped the lawsuit claiming he wanted to handle it via mediation. I reached out to one of the former members who said that there has been very little mediation, but “more consulting on how to move past this.” Here’s my interpretation: the negative publicity regarding the lawsuit, Plan A, did not yield the desired results and so Wingfield has gone on to Plan B to redefine their new and improved image (because we know it’s all about the image of the church over helping the abused and defenseless, right?).

Dawn Varvil, one of the defendants in the rescinded lawsuit, discussed the hardships sexual abuse victims have faced while the church leaders turned their backs on them in order to save face. Now, let’s look more closely at the motives behind those mean horrible trouble-making members who had the audacity to call out their pastor publicly:

Members also say the church has neglected to provide victims with any substantial relief, either in the form of paying for counseling, or in the case of at least one family, simply reaching out to inquire how it might be able to help. Varvil also says she knows of others victimized by Milburn who have yet to come forward. (Source)

It’s apparent to see that these members who publicly called out Pastor Steve Wingfield are concerned about the emotional and spiritual well-being of those who have been harmed by leaders within the church, a place that is supposed to be a refuge and a place that shares the love of Christ, defending the oppressed and abused.

Varvil continued:

“This is a stumbling block for them,” Varvil said, referring to the victims. “They have left the church. Some of them are using drugs. Some of them are using alcohol. The faith community owes them some action.” (Source)

I agree 100% with Varvil. To be sexually abused by a leader in the church who is in a position of trust and then abandoned by other church leaders sends very powerful messages to victims:

  • who can victims trust in the church?
  • are the church leaders not concerned about the pain they are feeling?
  • where has God been in all of this?

When church leaders fail to respond appropriately, the victim is emotionally, physically, and spiritually abandoned. Some might have a crisis of faith and leave the church, some will even reject God because if God’s church leaders blame or disregard victims, the logical conclusion is that God also does the same. Varvil discusses the secondary abuse here:

“To see them no longer having any relationship with Christ is I think, well, it’s the most abusive part of what happened,” Varvil continued. “Because they came to him (Milburn) to begin with because they were broken and vulnerable from situations. It was the perfect time for them to embrace their faith.” (Source)


What About Those Who Have Abandoned Their Faith as a Result of Secondary Abuse by Church Leaders?

Varvil has clearly articulated the problem of secondary abuse by church leaders, but now we’re going to focus on specific foundational beliefs which seem to minimize abuse and place full responsibility of those leaving the faith onto onto victim. Are these beliefs wide-spread?

Boz Tchividjian was recently interviewed by Relevant Magazine in this excellent article, How Should Christians Respond to Abuse Situations Like the Duggars’?, and he echoed a similar heartfelt message as Varvil about victims who have abandoned their faith:

Well, I’ve encountered those victims 10, 15, 20 years later. And it’s a tragedy, because they don’t want anything to do with Jesus. And I understand it. Because the very ones who professed and represented Jesus turned their backs on them to care for and spend all of their time and resources on the very ones that eviscerated their lives through abuse.

A couple of days ago, I took a screenshot of the Boz’s quote above, and tweeted it, adding the following to preface it: “When Christians fail to respond appropriately to sex abuse, this often happens:”


My tweet was retweeted by someone who did not agree with Boz (or me) and challenged it based on her understanding of theology:



“This is an example of a distortion and misunderstanding of the doctrine of soteriology. We are all born “not wanting anything to do with Jesus”. It is due to our sin nature, not events in our lives.” ~Jules’ Diner


Do you see what’s going on here? What conclusion do you come to when reading @Jules’ Diner’s tweets? Who is responsible when a victim falls from the faith – – the victim, because of their own sin, or the abuser?

Do you see how this belief could minimize the abuser’s responsibility?

If church leaders believe this, what are the far-reaching implications for an abuse victim? For an offender?

Do you see how this belief could create a climate in which church leaders do not take abuse seriously because they believe the victim is ultimately held responsible for how they respond to their abuse and also “their sin” of falling away from Christ?

Yes, I understand that we are all sinners, but when we discuss a victim’s sin rather than wrap our arms around and support a victim, how can a victim ever feel safe in such an environment?

These two verses from Jesus come to mind when it comes to the faith of a child that deserve consideration. Look how Jesus responded to those who have caused children to sin or have sabotaged their faith:

Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:5-6

And one more:

And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Mark 10:13-14

If Jesus said that faith can be harmed by people, then is He not suggesting the onus is on the perpetrator, NOT the victim? That is the response we must have over any theology that teaches otherwise.

In other words, if you are following a theology that doesn’t align with Jesus’ words, you might want to recheck your theology.

Related articles/blog:

photo credit: Broken Yellow Arrow via photopin (license)

36 thoughts on “Church Leaders Who Revictimize Abuse Victims and Theology That Harms Both Victims and Perpetrators”

  1. (“This is an example of a distortion and misunderstanding of the doctrine of soteriology. We are all born “not wanting anything to do with Jesus”. It is due to our sin nature, not events in our lives. ” ~Jules’ Diner)

    Barf. This is the same twaddle that is blabbered out when someone leaves because they grow tired of being a doormat at a fellowship. The “they went out from us because they were not of us” trump card. What a major cop out. Little babies are not born thinking anything about anything theological that is a fact. It is attributing to young people or people not abused the same understanding someone who is in a good situation just walking out because the church says you cant steal out of the collection plate. there are degrees of culpability and understanding.

    Not events in our lives, we are made up to a large degree by events in our lives, Christ even draws us to Him by events in our lives. This is why I cant stand the evangelical franchise they think salvation / fellowship is some type of business contract. Thanks for telling another story JA. brian

    Liked by 1 person

  2. The issue here is one of betrayal. As you shared, Julie Anne, the victim’s suffering is multiplied by the church that holds to this half-baked theology.

    Didn’t Jesus also say, “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”? (Matthew 7:15) Yet so many in the body seem to assert that such wolves do not exist. Just love and accept everyone. Is there no discernment?

    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’” (Matthew 7:21-23) There are some who call themselves believers who are nothing but pretenders, those who in truth “practice lawlessness.” It’s a lifestyle. Should we not identify such hypocrites? The Apostle Paul says ‘no,’ writing “Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them (deceivers) in secret.” (Ephesians 5:11-12)

    Generally, I think many of us have become weary of the judgmental, legalistic and ignorant mindset we find in many, if not most, churches, filled with fools who would rise to console our abuser and condemn us for saying ‘no more.’ We feel betrayed – because we have been. While some might say that they have given up on “Jesus,” I think that the hostility is directed at the church while a love for Jesus and healthy relationships with Him and other Spirit-filled believers remain intact. When all is said and done, Jesus told us to seek Him, trust Him, follow Him, come to Him – not the church.

    “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me…” (John 10:14)

    Liked by 5 people

  3. A few threads ago, I was talking about the movie “The Village”

    It comes on tonight, on the Sy Fy channel, at 11 PM CST. So if you’ve not seen it, you might want to tune in to watch.

    One of the biggest points of the movie is that no matter how much you isolate your kids to keep bad, worldly influences from tarnishing them, they will sin anyway.

    Jesus made the same point in the Gospels. Sin comes from within, not from what is outside of you.

    Anyhow. Tonight, Sy Fy channel, 11 PM Central Stan. time, “The Village”.

    I don’t know if Sy Fy will be repeating this movie later this week – cable channels sometimes do repeat a movie days apart.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. If you have been to Wondering Eagle’s blog, I got into a conversation about this topic there, a couple of weeks ago.

    That Seneca Griggs guy, who usually posts at the other blog, left a post or two at Eagle’s blog, and we went back and forth about this. Griggs was sounding very much like the Jule’s Diner person that Julie Anne was quoting in the original post.

    The Bible may teach that God holds each person responsible for his/her own sin and whether they accept or reject Christ, BUT, I do think that when other self professing Christians behave poorly and cause someone to walk off and leave Jesus, that poorly behaving person bears SOME responsibility for it.

    I don’t know exactly how God views that part of it, but I am saying this is how I view it.

    One of several reasons I now have big doubts about the Christian faith is seeing precisely how poorly so many professing believers behave. I see many who do not live godly lives (I said “godly,” I did not say I expect absolute perfection).

    I’ve also told the story on this blog a time or two how when I needed people’s support and sympathy at a very low point in my life (my mother’s passing for one thing), and I went to Christians for this support (including extended family and people at a local church), I was either scolded, shamed, or pushed away.

    That played a role in one reason I now have doubts about the faith.

    Other Christians did that. Other Christians bear some responsibility for my faith crisis, at least partially.

    How you behave as a Christian matters, and how you treat hurting people matters in other people’s faith walks, whether you want to accept that or not.

    Jules said in her Tweets:

    We are all born “not wanting anything to do with Jesus”. It is due to our sin nature, not events in our lives. 2/2

    The first half of those comments may be biblically true.

    However, I accepted Jesus as my savior at a very young age. And now, as an adult, yes, it is partially events in my life that are causing me to possibly leave the Christian faith, to have doubts, and not want to have much to do with Jesus. My experience negates her belief.

    She seems to assume that all victims and all wounded people are Non-Christian, but there are people who are Christian, they accepted Christ years ago, who later leave the faith over pain in their life or whatever.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Jules Diner sounds like the sort of person who would benefit from a prolonged series of solid, repeated kicks to the backside.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. This brings tears to my eyes, a painful reminder why it feels so desperately lonely to be a victim of abuse (spousal). Ultimately, even a very supportive church like my most recent one – and the one I attended through separation and filing for divorce – drifts into the realm of ” the victim is ultimately held responsible for how they respond to their abuse and also “their sin” of falling away from Christ”

    How can a victim ever feel safe in that environment? They can’t.

    Liked by 4 people

  7. Predatory “Christians” = wolves

    Clergy* = alpha male wolves

    Laity = lambs

    Church = packs of wolves devouring sheep

    Ekklesia = lambs escaping church, gathering together in the presence of Jesus

    *While I contend that no man or woman should take on the title of Pastor, those few who do so and who nevertheless *serve* the laity as equals and on the basis of love, not authority, may be excluded from the category of alpha male wolves.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Daisy – I read you ……… I had to respond to you (I do not not comment here too much because right now it is too much for me, mentally) just to encourage you to keep looking up at Jesus no matter what others have done. I love your heart and words that you have spoken over here and TWW; I wish I could give you a big hug and tell you that their are many here that want to live like Jesus. As many have discussed here before – it is the system that is wrong and the way many have twisted the words of Christ to use for their own benefit. We know Jesus was not like this and that He spoke harshly to those who did try to control the narrative. Even if we are the only ones standing proclaiming the true love of Christ, then that is what we must do. What the world needs to see is His love and its changing power of the Holy Spirit. I think what most Christians do NOT understand is the Holy Spirit and the fruits of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, long suffering, peace, kindness, goodness, patience, meekness. “Pastors” rarely speak of these fruits in sermons and rarely speak about the Holy Spirit as being the one who changes our lives for the better, NOT THE CHURCH.
    On the opposite side, we have to be careful not to become bitter but to remember that we all have choices. People today have chosen to look up to men instead of Jesus. The Israelites did the same. Choices have consequences and we are witnessing now how the church is crumbling and losing its lampstand because they do not listen and act like Jesus (who is love). So Daisy I would just encourage you to stand strong; let yourself grieve and REST (I say this because sometimes we need to take a break from these things because the burden can be too heavy); know that you are loved by Him and us. 🙂
    I hope that I did not over speak to you Daisy; I just wanted to encourage you.

    Liked by 2 people

  9. I am really having a hard time understanding the response of the church toward victims of sexual or any other abuse. It’s tragically heaping more abuse on the victims and they don’t get that. I want to shake them and say get it or close your doors!

    Liked by 1 person

  10. trust4himonly, the fruit of the spirit used to be another checklist I would measure my failure by. It wasn’t until after we left our former church that I realized all those things were more extinguished than fueled by the culture there. I used to wonder why I was such a total failure. It had to be my fault (or so went my thinking). It couldn’t be the church, where the teaching came right out of the scriptures, and people exhorted each other not to grow weary in doing well, and all that.

    You could be dead and empty inside, but so long as you put a good face on it, you’d be considered a successful christian and someone to look up to, someone who could encourage and mentor others.

    Whitewashed tombs, indeed.


  11. Debbie Kaufman, I think some of it may be rooted in superstition or magical thinking. You see, becoming part of a church body is supposed to make you safe. Especially for those (like myself) who grew up in terribly dysfunctional homes, without a clue or role model for what a loving family might look like (except maybe those television examples? …someone’s figment of imagination, made to look real), the church offered an attractive package. People who to all appearances had their act together, who offered to love and mentor those who came in looking for an answer to their pain.

    If someone becomes a “victim” inside the church, if there is pain inside the church, then the church is no longer a safe place — so the solution is to marginalize the victims, deny the abuse ever happened, even blame the victims for bringing the abuse on themselves. Anything to maintain the illusion of safety. “It can’t happen to me.”

    Liked by 1 person

  12. Great comment, refugee. I came from a dysfuntional background and was trying to hard to protect my children from harm. I was looking for families and church that looked healthy to help guide me. I think it was that “magical thinking.”


  13. Yeah refugee, what many do not realize is that it is the Holy Spirit that works in us when we are willing. These fruits can take years to develop and the Holy Spirit has a way of working on us when we don’t even realize it- it is gentle and loving. Trust is the key- we can trust in God, not systems.


  14. The church lost its way very early in its history, becoming just another way for governments and power-hungry people to control the behavior of people. However, there are many who are hungry for the truth and are fortunate enough to find like-minded people. I have no doubt that there are many churches that fall into that category, but not all are housed in a building. I believe that The Church of the Spiritual Sounding Board is a good home base for many. If nothing else it’s a good reset point.


  15. Hmm, SSB = “a good reset point.” I like that, Steve. That’s exactly what it was like for me when I started reading spiritual abuse stories – a reset point.


  16. My tweet was retweeted by someone who did not agree with Boz (or me) and challenged it based on her understanding of theology:

    i.e. You got in reply Ideologically Pure Talking Points.
    In fluent Christianese.

    Liked by 1 person

  17. We were influenced by Gothard in the Seminars, but were not in ATI. I can remember telling the mother of a young woman who was preparing to marry a divorced man how awful I thought it was. I even gave her a copy of the Rebuilder’s Manual (wonder why they were often called MANuals?). Anyway, to day that couple has been married for about 35 years and thankfully have not held that against me. I have made many mistakes with people who were either getting a divorce or marrying some divorced. I wish I could go back and undo those hurtful words and actions. Within the last year my daughter finally told me that she was getting a divorce after 24 years of marriage. I was sorry but I knew why she was doing it. I had seen things and heard things that I knew weren’t good (maybe they thought I was blind but I wasn’t). I was most sorry for their children. They were not in ATI or involved much in Gothard after marriage but I knew my daughter would know what I thought. I think she delayed doing it because she thought we would object. I am sorry and my husband still thinks of her ex as his “son”. But he knows that there was a reason for it.

    I haven’t had doubts about my Christian faith because of this but I can tell you I did get pretty mad when I heard and read about all the things Gothard taught and did. The first night we went to a seminar we took our Bibles. We soon saw how “foolish” that was as we didn’t even open them and they sat on the floor. That was one of his tactics – making us write things in the notebook. It wouldn’t have cost much more to have printed that in the book in the first place with a little room for additional notes. We were so busy writing that we didn’t see the errors.

    I do think the Lord has given me some discernment about false teachings and teachers. Well, anyway, Daisy, please don’t despair. The Lord will deal with Bill Gothard and you can look to Him to heal your doubts and your hurts. I did treat that young woman getting married like you mentioned without love and compassion but I have learned a lot since then and I hope that today I would show love and compassion to her and to you if i met you today. We thought we were so spiritual because we had heard Bill Gothard. What a bunch of fools we were. Many of us have come back to our senses though so don’t hold us all guilty. I’m a sinner and God has forgiven me.

    Here is a thought I heard at church on Sunday. Someone read from Micah 7:19b: “you will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.” Then that was followed up by the verse in Revelation 21:1b that says, : “…Also there was no more sea.” Isn’t that wonderful? In the new heaven and new earth there won’t even be a sea to remind us that our sins are buried there. They are GONE as far as God is concerned. Those verses were such a blessing to me. And I hope they are to you too.


  18. Off topic, but here’s yet another creepy article from Desiring God Ministries…
    Dads, Date Your Daughter’s Boyfriend

    Or you might call it, “Dads, how to be a total control freak and show you are an intrusive jerk.”

    Why is this so important to Desiring God Ministries? Because the author believes women must be “covered” from age 15 until her wedding day. Because God knows women are spiritually stupid can not make good decisions; because Jesus didn’t die for us women; and because the Holy Spirit doesn’t guide and protect women.

    “As a trend, dads seem to be less and less involved in their daughter’s dating. It actually makes for a dangerous situation because God means for spiritual headship and leadership to be a more seamless handoff, not this disjointed affair that leaves the young woman spiritually and emotionally uncovered from age fifteen until her wedding day.”

    Gross. These guys don’t worship the God of power, protection, and guidance. They worship human maleness.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Anonymous2, I know I’ve read that before. It doesn’t seem possible that it’s from June 2014. It sounds like something from the keyboard of Doug Phillips or Voddie Baucham. Deja vu.

    Liked by 1 person

  20. “Gross. These guys don’t worship the God of power, protection, and guidance. They worship human maleness.”

    These guys are fighting for their own extra-biblical rights. They should be called Macho Gospel Masculinists.

    Liked by 2 people

  21. “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.” Matt 23:13-14

    Liked by 2 people

  22. Thanks for following the story at First Church of Florissant, Julie Anne, and for pointing it out to us.

    What is with JD Hall, Fred Butler, JulesDiner and so many others, that they assume all activists and supporters of the abused are motivated by a hatred for Christ and His Church? The lack of reasoning just boggles the mind. Even if they couldn’t figure it out from reading the prophets, they could have at least taken a lesson from this simple illustration by Lewis:

    If I object to boys who steal my nectarines, must I be supposed to disapprove of nectarines in general? Or even of boys in general? It might, you know, be stealing that I disapproved of.
    — C.S. Lewis, “No Right Of Happiness”

    Liked by 2 people

  23. It’s truly bizarre, Serving. It is love for Christ and His church that we do this. Harboring abusers and ignoring victims is tainting the church and in my opinion shows hatred for the church.

    Ok, now you’ve got me wanting to tweet about this. LOL

    Liked by 1 person

  24. “Gross. These guys don’t worship the God of power, protection, and guidance. They worship human maleness.”

    They worship what hangs between their legs (when it’s not hard & erect) — Priapus.
    And all the Baalim of Fertility and Dynasty.


  25. Anon quoting DG (Desiring God) site about dads choosing BFs for their daughters:

    “As a trend, dads seem to be less and less involved in their daughter’s dating. It actually makes for a dangerous situation because God means for spiritual headship and leadership to be a more seamless handoff, not this disjointed affair that leaves the young woman spiritually and emotionally uncovered from age fifteen until her wedding day.”

    Notice that it’s never considered that the young lady may not want to get married.

    Or, perhaps like me, the lady wants to, but she never comes across a “Mr Right,” and is thus single well up into her 40s. That point is never considered by these weenies.

    If your system of rules concerning dating, gender, and marriage cannot be applied properly or effectively, unless everything aligns perfectly, may I suggest that your rules and views might just be totally wrong and unbiblical?

    That is, if you tell me that gender comp forms of dating, gender relations, marriage, etc, cannot work unless factors “A,” “B,” and “C” are all true –
    The young lady wants to be married, and/or has a father, and/or the father takes a hands on approach to her dating life, etc etc, that tells me that your views about this stuff are total bunk.

    I have a father, but he was never interested in if or when or who I dated. This article from DG site says that is a pity, that my father SHOULD be interested in my dating life, and is failing his Dad Job or Role if he does not.

    Well okay, but where does that leave me, then? My dad did not take a hands on role in my dating life, so what now?

    What does DG say should happen now? I bet nothing, right? They have no solutions for stuff like this, they just wag their index finger in judgement in people’s faces, telling them they did not date properly.

    I am a woman, a human being. I am not property. I don’t need to be “handed off” or handed down from a father to a husband. I find this attitude of theirs very insulting.

    Liked by 1 person

  26. DG quote again:

    and emotionally uncovered from age fifteen until her wedding day.”

    I hate this. This assumes that all young girls begin dating at age 15. Which is wrong.

    I had to suffer from some blind dates when I was early 20s (dates that people fixed me up on that I was not interested in), but I didn’t start dating until my late 20s.

    Not all women begin dating while they are teens! Some of us are “late bloomers.”


  27. I think this all boils down to is that many modern leaders want their untarnished image, they want to appear infallible. However, they don’t want to do the work that is required for the genuine good health in their congregations. Using authority to pressure people with how they should respond is an unacceptable shortcut that may bring short term peace, but eventually causes more harm to the churches reputation than would have taken place if the leaders admitted they didn’t know how to resolve the situation and got outside help.
    Even the scenario of how fathers should “cover” their daughters is basically a shortcut that offers an appearance of protection, but causes more harm than good. Why not encourage fathers train their daughters to be independent, responsible individuals who can think for themselves. If the daughter is a strong individual who is discerning, she should be able to make good decisions, even when dad isn’t around.

    Liked by 3 people

  28. “I think this all boils down to is that many modern leaders want their untarnished image, they want to appear infallible.”

    I’ve known far too many preachers who were simply power-tripping, money-loving con artists. They were basically nothing more than motivational speakers with Bibles and anger issues, intent on exercising their entitlement to receive a fat paycheck for doing very little actual work. You see them everywhere now. Couple that attitude with the celebrity culture of the modern church and you add “wanna-be rock star” to the list of characteristics that the modern preacher embodies (Mark Driscoll and Matt Chandler, anyone?), and the result is a bunch of ego-stroking narcissists who are running personality cults instead of ministering to those in need.

    I hate these people with a passion, not only for what they’re doing within the “modern church,” but for the impact they’re having on society at large. They’re turning the clock back 100 years and destroying social progress in every arena. When I listen to Matt Chandler screaming from the pulpit about a “narcissitic zero” who sent him a critical email he didn’t like, I want to punch him in the face repeatedly because what the hell, dude, seriously. Jesus didn’t scream at his followers, Matt Chandler you nincompoop. He yelled at Pharisees like you who were corrupting the church. He cleared people like you out of the temple with a whip. Get a clue.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. Where are the mothers suppose to fit into guiding their daughter’s dating choices? Who says a gullible father can’t be tricked by a manipulative boyfriend? One of my brothers believed this principle that “teaching” his daughter’s boyfriend would protect her from a broken heart. My niece was too immature to get married, but her dad (my brother) approved her boyfriend and encouraged the wedding. She was handed over publically to her fiance by her father like a commodity. In short, her husband was never faithful, left her after a year and a half and ran away with a co-worker. He later left this young woman and impregnated another. Needless to say, my brother and the church pursued him and tried to discipline him until he threatened a restraining order.
    My niece would have been better served by allowing her to learn to make her own choices and develop some independence as a developing young woman. It breaks my heart that my nieces value their father’s so-called infallibility over their own judgement. I hate that their mother encourages worshipful attitude towards men.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. “entitlement to receive a fat paycheck for doing very little actual work.”

    Choosing a life where they position themselves above everybody else, and then informing those people 24-7 that they are subject to him is stressful, what if all these people decide to stop buying his self serving bullpoop? What if all those people tell him to get over his self, or to get a real job? Or they are not going to worship him anymore?

    These men can not handle the real world where if they started talking about their authority, disciplining those that don’t kiss their bottoms, other peoples submission to them, they could possibly get their sexually sadistic spoilt brat little boy bottoms kicked. Scary scary.

    “They’re turning the clock back 100 years and destroying social progress in every arena. ”

    They can not live in a world where people can tell them NO! Or in a world where people can escape them. We were to kiss my hyper conservative fathers bottom at all cost. He treated us like garbage any time he pleased, all the while we were doing everything we could to make him feel like the king/god Christianity told him he was.

    “Matt Chandler you nincompoop. ”

    Matt Chandler is a man that obviously understands pedophiles, and does not understand those that hate pedophiles.

    Liked by 1 person

  31. “It breaks my heart that my nieces value their father’s so-called infallibility over their own judgement. I hate that their mother encourages worshipful attitude towards men.”

    As a little girl I felt like God was my pimp, what is the difference? We were taught a wife can not refuse your husband sex, ever, if he beats you, you can not divorce him, you have to be submissive like a sex slave/canine to your husband.

    In my southern Baptist family it was just a bunch of husbands using wives to create other women/daughters to be slaves for men. They never cared about us or our mothers, we felt like garbage, but the men felt like a million dollars.

    My father never loved me, he just wanted another man he had not met yet to get a bottom kissing female slave. My father and grand fathers did not deserve to have their bottoms kissed.

    My mothers father thought my father could do anything he pleased to my mother and she better take it. When I hear Christian fathers speak I think, pimp.


  32. 100pinkapples-I am sorry you grew up in that environment. It is similar to the southern culture I grew up in. Now some of my siblings have now taken the (white) man is king and switched it from southern living to Biblical living. Strong women are considered an anomaly or maybe just lesbian. Anyway it is not ladylike to be assertive. Just smile and please your man.


  33. I was reading Luke 4 this morning, and wrote some notes. Jesus was not about power/authority (Satan offered Him the world, He turned it down), He was not about manipulating God (throw yourself off the pinacle of the temple, Jesus said don’t ptu God to the test), and He wasn’t about using his power to meet his own needs (turn stones into bread) (Luke 4:1-12).

    Jesus was about meeting other’s needs.
    Jesus was about changing lives.
    Jesus is about having a relationship with Him.

    We should be about meeting other’s needs, we should be about having good relationships with others, we should be about changing lives through the good news of the Gospel.

    Liked by 2 people

  34. In summary Jesus said whomever causes one of His little ones to stumble it’d be better for them to be tied to a millstone and cast into the sea. Paul made it very clear in his epistles we are not to allow our conduct to cause others to stumble. We are responsible for our behavior not giving the appearance of evil and our behavior is to be such that it wins others.

    While it is true only the Holy Spirit can lead someone to Christ and change their heart; because we are all sinners, to say that negates our responsibility is simply not Scriptural.

    To say we’re to allow abuses to continue and the victims go hang because it’s their fault they reject God; how is that even Scriptural?


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