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Are women even allowed in the seminary at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary?
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Special thanks to blogger, Tim Fall, whose tweet showed up in my Twitter news feed and prompted this post. Tim asks the person behind The Southern Baptist Theological School’s (SBTS) Twitter account about women in the seminary. @ItsJuzztMe got the first audible laugh from me this morning. Have a read:
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So what about those wives who have considered seminary?
I wanted to see if I could send my daughter to SBTS as a seminary student and snooped around the site a bit. I found this:
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Ok, the first sentence is a dead giveaway: “Wondering if Southern has a place for you?” hmmmmm
and then:
“. . . to address women’s needs and equip them for whatever calling God has place on their lives.”
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What if, as Tim Fall asked, a woman feels God is calling her to ministry? Will SBTS support her calling to ministry? Are there classes or any type of classes for men to support wives in seminary? I first had to see if this was even an option at SBTS. From what I can see, SBTS offers quite a few programs for both men and women, but they sure do support wives of seminary students: Seminary Wives Institute. However, there’s no Seminary Husbands Institute that I could find. Keep in mind, when husbands are at seminary school, this is one time that the complementarian guys say it’s okay for their wives to work outside the home for a season.
Reading through some of this stuff reminded me of when I was a Navy officer’s wife and was given a lengthy handbook for proper etiquette as a Navy wife. Even at the time (1988), I noted that it said Navy wives, not spouses. In my husband’s graduating class at officer candidate school, there were women who graduated as officers, so this book was already out of date. Regardless, at our first training site (yes, it was training for me as an officer’s wife as well as training for my newly commissioned officer husband), I hung out with the captain’s wife and other new officer’s wives and she modeled to us how to be a proper officer’s wife. It was actually quite fun at CECOS in Port Hueneme, CA, spending time with the officer’s wives. But I was expected to schmooze with the higher ranking officers respectfully, I had to make sure I placed my calling card appropriately in the dish upon leaving an official event (do you even know what a calling card is and how it is used?). Yup, even though I wasn’t in the military, my husband was, and I was expected to follow Navy wives rules. Anyway . . . back to seminary wives . . .
Here is a sampling of what SBTS has to offer for women in their upcoming spring of 2015 Seminary Wives Institute course descriptions:
LEADERSHIP SKILLS I: Women and Evangelism
BAPTIST BELIEFS: This class is taught by Drs. Albert Mohler, Dan DeWitt, Adam Greenway, Randy Stinson and Greg Wills
We predict you will use what you learn in this course for years to come. You will also gain a greater appreciation and understanding of what your husbands spend years studying.
MINISTRY OF HOSPITALITY: This class is taught by Mrs. Mary Mohler
Some of the many topics include serving your own family, recipe and menu organization, event planning at home and at church, etiquette, hospitality in writing, evangelistic hospitality and overcoming challenges. Students will have the opportunity to demonstrate hospitality and plan a creative event as part of this course. Practical assignments correspond to the weekly topics.
MORE BIBLICAL COUNSELING: TYPICAL PROBLEMS IN COUNSELING
PLAYING HYMNS taught by Bethany Strachan (Is this Owen Strachan’s wife?)
Description: Have you ever wanted to learn to play the piano OR have you wish that you had kept it up as a child? This course will teach how to read the notes for the right and left hand and will teach basic chord patterns so that you could play worship songs or hymns with the right hand melody and various chord patterns with the left hand. Access to a keyboard or piano is required as well as regular practice times for about 20-30 minutes five days a week.
The only thing I could find regarding women in leadership is this:
Ministry Leaders Internship for Women is designed to invest in female students who are called to minister to women in a church or educational setting. Ladies are challenged to invest strategically in the spiritual lives of other women while personally growing in leadership, discipline, and godliness. Please go here for more information.
I called SBTS to find out for sure and was told that women can take all classes at SBTS except for pastoral degree classes (JA bolded):
The Pastoral Studies concentration is primarily designed to prepare men who are called to serve in the office of pastor in local congregations. A balance of biblical, theological, and ministry courses makes this a broad program of pastoral training, allowing for exposure to a range of knowledge and skills needed for effective ministry in the local church.
So, Tim, unfortunately I don’t think there’s much for you at SBTS on how to support your wife if she feels God’s calling to go to seminary. I’m so sorry.
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Apparently SBTS is ready to equip women for whatever God has called them to do, as long as it involves serving their husbands. If they want to lead, it can only be other women. this makes sense of course, since in their doctrine God would never call a woman to do anything remotely resembling what the men who attend are being trained to do.
P.S. “So, Tim, unfortunately I don’t think there’s much for you at SBTS on how to support your wife if she feels God’s calling to go to seminary. I’m so sorry.”
Thanks, JA, I hope I can survive the disappointment.
P.P.S. Remember when Denny Burk preached last summer about men being required to earn enough to support their wives unless the wife is putting her husband through seminary? It’s right in line with what you’re saying about SBTS. His sermon is full of half-truths and straw men arguments from what I could see.
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Oh, you and Tim ask such silly questions. Sadly, I can figure out the answers.
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This is amazing. I was raised in a Baptist Church–not SBC. Most of the pastors that we had in that little church never went to Seminary. These classes are ridiculous and devalue women in the Lord’s work for the King.
What I found particularly funny was the “playing hymns”. The piano players in our church all learned how to chord with the left hand and play melody with the right. It was that way at our sister churches as well. One pastors wife had a special talent in her chording, which I wish I could do. Her melody/soprano part was played in octaves and the bass were chords but she did them different than anyone else. I can still here her play in my head, but can’t seem to grasp the knack. Anyways, to this day playing a hymn without chords just doesn’t seem quite right and it takes me longer to learn a new song playing it as written.
I don’t know why any woman would waste their money on this junk. There is a hospitality group of women at the church I attend. They plan events, meal preparation for the sick or shut-ins and lets not forget the card sending and letter writing. No one needed a class to perform these tasks.
If this seminary is anything like Dallas Theological, Heaven help us.
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For a contrast, I looked up my alma mater’s master’s program to see if they mentioned anything about supporting wives. Nothing. Anyone can get a Master’s degree in a number of pastoral studies programs.
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Courses on hospitality and playing hymns? This is insulting to women who want grown-up roles in their faith communities.
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I’m not sure why a woman would want to incur the necessary debt to obtain one of these degrees anyways, being that they likely would never be able to allowed to put it to use in these types of churches. And now that I think about it, I’m not sure I understand why a man would want one either. Most of the people I know who went there aren’t making enough money to support their families alone anyway. One works manual labor and another sells cars. I really don’t think the NeoCalvinistic hipster doctrine is really that attractive to a lot of SBC churches. The big gurus ought to tell applicants on the front end that they most likely will never make a living off on a blog, on a conference circuit, or by writing books. And any church they pastor may not be a huge success, so get ready to work a regular job.
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I would love to know how a class on “Baptist Beliefs” would differ than one on “Biblical Beliefs” or even “”Christian Beliefs”? Also what are Typical problems in counseling different than Atypical? Maybe only men can deal with the latter.
I love the description of “special programs and ministries to address women’s needs—“. As I recall from my school days, the word “special” was a euphemism for cognitively impaired and developmentally delayed. Hmmm, does that mean all women are “special” or just the Baptist “ladies”?
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:^) you might as well ask whether the Vatican provides helps for the wives of seminarians, or whether a Unitarian seminary teaches Scripture, what kind of coffee is served at BYU’s seminary, or whether the vending machine at Yeshiva has pork rinds.
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Larry,
The majority of pastors I knew that were worth a nickel, did work a real job.
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Ann, more seriously, here are Baptist distinctives–courtesy of the GARBC.
Bible is sole rule for faith and practice.
Autonomy of the local church
Priesthood of the believer
Two ordinances, baptism and the Lord’s Supper
Individual soul liberty
Saved, baptized (immersed) church membership
Two offices, elder/pastor and deacon
Separation of Church and State (no state churches)
You will see that it’s an acrostic, and that a lot of these are shared with other churches, especially of the “generic evangelical” variety. Now being a Baptist myself, I’d affirm these ideas are Biblical while acknowledging that others might contest it.
But that said, I would also argue that these “shorthand” summaries of theology, like the Apostle’s Creed, are wonderful tools for recognizing when you’ve gone way off track but can’t figure out how.
And it might be noted that one can explain this in a couple of Sunday School sessions, or get a few Ph.D.s in it.
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There are plenty of Baptist denominations which practise ordination of women. Why not choose a seminary of one of these churches? I am not defending Baptists, as I have had some negative interactions with some (also some positive), but they have a right to their beliefs. I think it is dishonest to subvert the beliefs of a group. Just join a group whose beliefs you share. I would not go to a Baptist seminary with the agenda of furthering Lutheran beliefs. The same principles apply to ordination, etc.
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Not a church denomination I’d want to see my daughters identifying with.
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@Ann:
Which are themselves Newspeak euphemisms for “Retarded”.
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Check out Hyles-Anderson College’s catalog. You have separate degrees for men and women. They even have a “Marriage and Motherhood major” for women only and a “Department of Homemaking.” I’m not seeing any explicit bans on women from attending the seminary, though I imagine it’s highly discouraged given their curriculum. Their “Master of Pastoral Theology” notes that “Most men would need a minimum of three years to complete this program.”
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I do remember that, Tim. Because evidently, we can “biblically” look the other way about women working outside the home when it supports her husband’s “ministry.” That’s the exception clause . . . how convenient. I’m so tired of these guys and their rules for women. These guys need to be shipped with their families to another country without being financially sponsored so they can get a reality check about how most of the world lives.
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I think it’s dishonest to change the rules when it benefits men.
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I will never forget the young couple that moved to Louisville for him to work on a PhD at Southern. I met them through friends. they were both highly educated before they came here holding MBA. they were your basic complementarian couple.
So she goes to Mary mohler’s class on seminary wives and listens to lecture son how to dress and act. evidently they make a huge deal about dressing properly and get into detail.not long after she attend some function where Mohlers daughter shows up in a miniskirt and spiked heels prancing around like the little celebrities daughter. oh and did I mention that she went off to Washington and worked for a senator as a single woman. this was during the time that al Mohler was telling young college students to marry young and have lots of children.
by the way julie anne were any of those classes you looked at, accredited?
over the last 10 years I knew several single women who moved to Louisville to attend there. they did not last. you feel bad for them because somehow they did not get the memo. and they come so bright eyed and full of enthusiasm and leave totally dejected. they weren’t here looking for husbands they were here to get an education for ministry. but that is a waste of time and money at Southern for women.
you can however get a homemaking degree at Southwestern. Paige Patterson even had kitchens installed. evidently there is a Christian Way to make biscuits that is not on YouTube.
needless to say after attending those lectures and seeing what’s going on around her she was not impressed with the hypocrisy of southern.
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It really recipe organization? I mean at the very least they could say work in a soup kitchen or something a bit more noble. Get your hands dirty in
the real world.
Greenway’s wife gave my kid piano lessons for a while about 7 years ago. I’m wondering how he got hired since they had no children and were not following Mohler’s commands. Russell Moore adopted two from Russia after a donor gave him $10,000 to help pay for it. of course he was already making a six figure income. perks of the job.
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I didn’t ask if the school or classes were accredited, Lydia.
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I have to make a confession I cant stand conservative reform professional Christians. That is wrong as many are very dedicated honest people. But the higher ups the professional Christians want their cake and eat it too. For example science, age of the earth the validity of the Theory of Evolution etc. What really ticks me off, I mean really is how women are treated, the church would have folded back on day one without women, they stuck by Jesus until the end and afterwards. They have also been suppressed, abused, burned at the stake, hanged as “witches” etc. I mean they burned Joan of Arc then made her a “saint”.
You know when a church starts to go down its not the women who run its the “macho” men that “lawyer up.” It is the rule not the exception. I am personally tired of the way issues that women deal with being trivialized. I have read Burk’s blog for a while, I wish not to be disrespectful so I will just say this, I disagree with much of his belief system Al Mohler, nevermind.
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This post got me thinking about Western Seminary in Portland (which has had significant ties to Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll – could say a bit more, but that’s not the subject of this post). I’ve attended some excellent seminars there, like “Shepherding Women in Pain,” but they do also have an MRS track:
“The Partners in Ministry Certificate (PMC) program is designed especially for the wives of Western Seminary students who are preparing for ministry. As both husband and wife prepare to serve, their bonds are strengthened. The PMC program also encourages ministry skills and deepens biblical understanding. Women who attend on-site have opportunity for mentoring relationships and to meet other seminary wives, building supportive and potentially lifelong friendships as they attend studies especially designed for ministry wives. PMC students are now able to attend on campus or participate through our Online Campus. Upon successful completion of the Partners in Ministry Certificate program (6 hours or more), wives may “walk” with their husband at graduation.”
Isn’t that so special, that the wives can walk with their headships at graduation?
I have some very mixed feelings about Western.
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@Ripberger I can guarantee that a woman isn’t going to be taking pastoral theology classes at Hyles. However, if she is underage, she can be the victim of statutory rape by the former president, as soon as he gets out from his current 10 year bit.
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JA: What rules were changed? If a denomination has set certain qualifications for the pastorate or a seminary program, what right do others have to come in and change that?
Also, there are many seminaries which would admit your daughter or Tim’s wife. Why not try there? Some of these have excellent academic reputations.
Is it OK for RCC and Orthodox seminaries to only admit men to pastoral programs but not OK for other denominations?
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Julie Anne,
I think it’s dishonest to change the rules when it benefits men.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
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evidently there is a Christian Way to make biscuits that is not on YouTube.
Lydia, You crack me up. This could keep me laughing all day!
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It’s time to have a reality check on working wives. This is straight from the U.S. Census:
Wives with children under 18
1990: 66.6% worked
2010: 69.8% worked
Wives with children under 6
1990: 59.1% worked
2010: 63.6% worked
Guys with stay-at-home wives are the minority and have been for more than 20 years.
– – – – – – – – –
Table 601.
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Families and Living Arrangements, Detailed Table MC-1, “Married Couples by Labor Force Status of Spouses: 1986 to Present,” November 2010.
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@lydia-
“So she goes to Mary mohler’s class on seminary wives and listens to lecture son how to dress and act. evidently they make a huge deal about dressing properly and get into detail.not long after she attend some function where Mohlers daughter shows up in a miniskirt and spiked heels prancing around like the little celebrities daughter. oh and did I mention that she went off to Washington and worked for a senator as a single woman. this was during the time that al Mohler was telling young college students to marry young and have lots of children.”
I take this as a sign from God to post my 3 part comment lol. I needed someone to mention modesty and you did! Mary Mohler wrote that book Modeling Modesty and uses it to teach the sem wives how to dress. In it she states that she forbids hip-hugger jeans, among other things. A Christian woman should never ever wear hip-huggers.
“LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP)–Mary Mohler believes there are certain clothes Christian women should never wear. Ever.
Whether it be miniskirts, hip-hugger jeans or skin-tight shirts, Mohler — wife of seminary president R. Albert Mohler Jr. — believes they should be avoided. Her reason? Christian women have a biblical obligation to dress modestly and reflect holiness.”
http://www.bpnews.net/14406/christian-women-have-obligation-to-dress-modestly-mary-mohler-says
and
“Am I saying that never, ever, not even once, can she wear a halter top, cropped top, mini skirt, skin tight shirts, anything that shows cleavage or midriff, hip-hugger jeans and shirts that don’t meet, that she can’t even go into an Abercrombie store, that she can’t keep Clinique in business when she is 14, and that her Sunday clothes are going to be different from her other clothes? Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.”
mary-mohler-modesty-a-key-ingredient-in-biblical-womanhood CBMW
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part 2-
And we see Mary Mholer on the Girl Talk blog doing an interview about modesty where she says:
“I am pleased to say that since Katie has heard this topic discussed at home since she was a very young girl, it has never been an issue of contention for us. I used to feign disgust and force myself from breaking into a grin when as a preteen she would hold up a blatantly immodest garment at a store and declare, “Mom, look at this! I can’t believe that girls would wear this out of the dressing room.” I wanted to smile at my delight in not being forced to teach her the hard way what she had wisely concluded on her own. Katie is now on her own as a college freshman. She is a beautiful young woman on the inside as well as the outside. Friends have teased Al for a decade that he needed to have a big stick ready for whomever came calling to date her. I can honestly say that we do not worry about her seizing her newly found freedom away from home to abandon modesty. Katie has strong convictions about presenting herself in such a way that she will honor her Lord. She sets an example for those who openly choose to do otherwise and has not succumbed to the very real peer pressure that exists to cross the line. I cannot express how thankful Al and I are that our daughter pleases us in this way even as she seeks to present herself in a very feminine manner. She is truly a girly girl who has always liked skirts, dresses and heels and there’s not a thing wrong with that.”
http://www.girltalkhome.com/blog/Mary_Mohler_The_Interview_Part_3/
So…Katie Mohler, their daughter, is the role model on modest dress…
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part 3-
I was googling to see Katie Mohler, as I have no idea who she is. On her twitter, she is in her wedding dress. I am not sure it would make the modesty cut b/c her back is quite exposed…but whatever. It’s their rules to NOT follow, not mine. Would a naked back cause the brothers in the pews at her wedding to stumble? Gosh, maybe?
But I also found a picture of Katie Mohler as a freshmen at her college, She is in the black and white striped top on the right.
https://www.uu.edu/photos/detail.cfm?ID=8195
What are those things on her legs????? Hip huggers. Kinda low hip-huggers. Busted.
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JA, I asked about accreditation because of Southernsr past partnership with the SGM pastors college which is not accredited. that caused quite a stir when it became public knowledge.
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Mary Mohler believes there are certain clothes Christian women should never wear. Ever.
I don’t have a problem with a little modesty, but I am sure that Mrs. Mohler can afford to go out and buy whatever she wants. I for one would not go to a church that has a dress code. I see no problem with wearing jeans to church. A halter top may be a little over the top. There was a younger lady at church during the summer wearing short shorts. One of the older ladies said something about her not being around here. My answer was, “at least she’s here”. And you are correct Katie is wearing hip huggers, but her midriff is covered. So much for all she was told at home. I personally see no problem with what she is wearing even if she wore it to church. If a homeless person comes in that hasn’t bathed in a week, we should welcome them and help them find a seat. Then we should find the people in charge of the Benevolence fund to find out how we can help that individual.
All of this junk about what you’re wearing is so trivial, prideful and possibly idolatry in some cases. I personally don’t wear makeup, but for those who do–go for it, if it makes you feel good. I wore makeup years ago and decided it just wasn’t for me. My face is always clean and nothing there to irritate my eyes.
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Diane, they lie. they are so insulated and isolated, they have no clue how obvious they are. their followers are Kool Aid drinkers and would never point out the obvious to them. keep in mind that anyone who points these things out is the real problem. They are not to be questioned.
but isn’t this exactly what they ask for when they make such a big deal out of clothes and a strict adherence to the rules for every one else but their own? but what else are they going to talk about?
Mary Mohler is one cold fish. she always looks like she’s been sucking on pickles. she used to take her kids to a local “christian’ university for testing because they were homeschooled. they always dreaded her visits because she expected special treatment because of who she is.
Katie Mohler was college roommates with one of Steve Gaines daughters. and no one dresses more provocatively than Steve Gaines daughters. they dress like sex kittens.
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“So much for all she was told at home. I personally see no problem with what she is wearing even if she wore it to church.”
Me either. But they are not my rules to break, they are theirs, lol. And Mary holds her daughter up as an example of modesty…and definitely forbade hip huggers. Gotta hate it when that happens.
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Keith, the situation at Southern was more of a covertbcoup d’etat. they did not send out memos announcing they were changing everything to CP donors in the pews. it was done incrementally over a period of years.
had Mohler announced his intentions he wouldnt have remained president for long. the same tactics were used that have been used in churches taken over by the young restless and reformed. you see the people who pay for it all are just ignorant rubes and cannot be trusted. and when it is done this way it takes a while for people to figure it out. by then the power is consolidated and it’s too late. people have to learn the hard way not to trust Christian leaders.
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“but isn’t this exactly what they ask for when they make such a big deal out of clothes and a strict adherence to the rules for every one else but their own? but what else are they going to talk about?”
You would think Mary Mohler might be a little less obvious about the hypocrisy in the sem wives institute brochure, lol
See page 5 and the pic they chose of a ?Christian/sem institute wife attendee? example to place in the brochure!! I have no problem whatsoever with her outfit, but really—a tight pink sweater? and skin tight jeans? lol I sense hip huggers under that pink sweater, too.
Seminary Wives Institute Brochure – Southern Baptist
JA fixed link
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Re: Bethany Strachan
Yes she is Owen’s wife, and an excellent pianist.
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Diane: Oops–Page not found.
Mod note: I fixed it – JA
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@Diane:
RANK. HATH. ITS. PRIVILEGES.
Plus the Christianese tradition of the Alpha Male Pastor parading his Smokin’ HAWT Wife before the Beta-to-Omega males in the pews, showing off what HE has that They Can’t Have.
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Use this and scroll down to the sem wives institute brochure link
http://www.sbts.edu/women/seminary-wives-institute/
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Diane,
I like that outfit. Once I loose 10 more pounds I may try to find something just like it and wear it to church.
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It’s a fine outfit…then again I don’t write books/give lectures/use my hip hugger jeans wearing daughter as an example of never, ever ,ever being allowed to wear hip hugger jeans b/c they are not Christian and must somehow tempt men,,,and then post that very image on my sem wives institute brochure-the very wives I lecture about modesty.
Something is very wrong with Mary Mohler’s thinking-she cannot connect the dots between what she teaches and what she allows on her brochure, and, trying to tie this up to even remotely relate to the topic of JA’s post, Mary Mohler should not be taken seriously regarding what she teaches at her sem wives institute because who knows what else there is that she teaches and does not really practice.
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Mary Mohler should not be taken seriously regarding what she teaches at her sem wives institute because who knows what else there is that she teaches and does not really practice.
Or anyone else who teaches nonsensical classes. Pastors wives don’t always know that is what they are going to become when then marry. They just wanted to be treated like normal women. These classes bring women down the scale quite a few notes. If Ms Mohler thinks this is beneficial, I feel very bad for her. You are right. If you’re going to preach, you need to put it in practice.
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This hits way too close to home for me. Many of my college classmates attended this seminary or the one in DFW in recent years. All of them have wives with college degrees, bright vibrant women who once had dreams of changing the world through their chosen vocations in life. Then along comes seminary for hubby and now they are all stay at home wives with at least 3 kids each (all born in quick succession) and they will most likely never be allowed to work or use their college degrees. Even those that were childless when their husbands entered seminary quickly figured out that working outside the home was not tolerated.
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@BrendaR:
As long as the women in those classes are OTHER women and wives, that’s a feature, not a bug.
There can be only one Queen in a bee hive.
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Lydia00: I may be misunderstanding this. Are you saying that this seminary formerly admitted women to the pastoral ministry program, and then under the Mohler presidency ceased doing so?
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JA and Tim: Why not suggest some other seminary for your respective female family members to attend?
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My youngest daughter is settled nicely at a Christian college. My other daughter, Hannah, already graduated from college and is not likely to attend any seminary since she hasn’t stepped into church since leaving our former cult/church. She was named in the lawsuit that started this whole mess. Yea, some evangelistic pastor he is, sues my daughter who was struggling with her faith. Don’t get me going.
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Yes Keith. That is exactly what I am saying.
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Paul sez no wimminz in the pulpit period! No ifs, no ands, & no buts about it!
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Muff Potter,
Yes, I agree Titus 1 is very clear. But what is the harm in a woman going to seminary who is going to be a missionary or just wants more in depth Bible knowledge? The classes that were spoken of in this post are ridiculous and degrading to a woman’s intelligence. Women can also be teachers. Teachers need knowledge.
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Titus 1 is “very clear’ about women not being pastors? Just rechecked the chapter and don’t see the clarity of such a prohibition.
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Muff is joking around.
Brenda, here is something to consider when this issue comes up. there is not one single prohibition in the Old Testament to women teaching or leading men. teaching or leading men in a theocracy like Israel is not the same as being an OT priest.
so the question becomes why would there be a new law or a new prohibition in the New Covenant concerning women teaching or leading men? and in the New Covenant we belivers are all considered priests.
There isn’t. there are only very bad interpretations that exclude historical context.
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My denomination does not ordain women, but I think there are plenty of seminaries that do. These seminaries would likely have groups for spouses of seminarians. I don’t want to get into the ordination debate, but I agree with Brenda R. that if a woman wants to do academic work in theology, nothing I am aware of in the Bible prohibits this.
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Tim, Verse 6— An elder……the husband of one wife. If an elder has that requirement which would most certainly make this person a man, why would there be anything different for the pastor in the pulpit? Actually, if the pastor at my church is away, one of the elders may be in the pulpit on a given Sunday.
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I am not an evangelical, but I think there are evangelical seminaries that welcome women. Trinity Evangelical Divinity School? George Fox? (The latter in Oregon). I think all United Methodists would admit women. I see Candler in Atlanta does.
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Lydia, I think I will need a lot more to go on to change my views on this topic. We are all given the Great Commission, but that commands us to tell the gospel to others and why would we not want to? I know some that don’t think a woman should speak to a man about the gospel which I see as ridiculous. If I am the one there, and it needs to be told, why would I not take the opportunity to reach out to someone who needs to hear about Jesus? It makes no sense to me to stand mute.
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“Lydia, I think I will need a lot more to go on to change my views on this topic. We are all given the Great Commission, but that commands us to tell the gospel to others and why would we not want to? I know some that don’t think a woman should speak to a man about the gospel which I see as ridiculous. If I am the one there, and it needs to be told, why would I not take the opportunity to reach out to someone who needs to hear about Jesus? It makes no sense to me to stand mute.”
Brenda, I think Satan is delighted with their view. I mean, think of it. How easy to shut up over half the Body of Christ with that twisted interpretation of scripture? The early church was chock full of society’s oppressed like slaves and women. The first to share the Gospel were women. And in that culture it took several women to equal the testimony of one man. God surely has a sense of humor concerning justice and the most important truth since creation. :o)
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Lydia, If it weren’t for the women in the church where I was saved and baptized, there wouldn’t be a church. There were 5 men in the church including the pastor. Everyone else were women, most with children, with unbelieving husbands who did not enter the doors. If the women did not spread the gospel in the small farming community, no one else was going to.
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“Tim, Verse 6— An elder……the husband of one wife. If an elder has that requirement which would most certainly make this person a man, why would there be anything different for the pastor in the pulpit? Actually, if the pastor at my church is away, one of the elders may be in the pulpit on a given Sunday.”
Well, if it is read like that, then Paul was not qualified. Where is his wife? Timothy would not be qualified. We would have to read it as single men are unqualified, too. It is actually dealing with the issue of polygamy and :”any cause” divorces which was not that uncommon. Polyandry was pretty much unheard of in that culture so that requirement was not needed for women. Some translations use ‘Likewise, wives’ but it could also be translated as women. Same word. Translator choice.
Bottomline: There is NO prohibition against women leading or teaching men in the OT nor is there a new prohibition in the NT. There just isn’t. The status of women was cultural. In fact, it is more pagan than Jewish if you go back far enough but the Jews were always mingling with the pagans who saw women as lesser beings and children as something to be sacrificed to some god if necessary..
Jesus Christ turned that on it’s head to put it to rights but that part has been ignored. I often refer folks to Luke 8. What on earth was Jesus thinking gallivanting all over the region with women, MARRIED women, too! And they were financing the men!
The Pharisees saw that as totally corrupt.
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“Lydia, If it weren’t for the women in the church where I was saved and baptized, there wouldn’t be a church. There were 5 men in the church including the pastor. Everyone else were women, most with children, with unbelieving husbands who did not enter the doors. If the women did not spread the gospel in the small farming community, no one else was going to.”
Sounds like the early church, too. As my step dad says all the time, women have always been the back bone of the Body of Christ. Quiet servants. He believes many women are gifted who do not pursue ministry in the institutions because of the rise of comp doctrines. Did you know women had much more freedom in that area years before? Especially in the SBC and Methodist churches. My grandmother had a whole series she did on Romans in several churches. She was a school teacher but she was asked to come and speak quite often to other churches. She did grad work at Moody back in the early part of the century when women were allowed.
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” am not an evangelical, but I think there are evangelical seminaries that welcome women. Trinity Evangelical Divinity School? George Fox? (The latter in Oregon). I think all United Methodists would admit women. I see Candler in Atlanta does.”
I agree Keith. One of the problems is that typically it is only very liberal churches or denominations that accept them in the institutions. That is changing, thankfully. What I have been relating to you concerning Southern and the SBC is that a lot of people gave their money to be covertly duped. That is not nice. They trusted people who used their money to build power coalitions and slowly changed everything. That was before the advent of the internet. I am not sure it could have happened the way it did with the internet.
Even the news that women faculty were fired for being women faculty took some time to get out into the pews back then.
The money is drying up though.
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Lydia,
There was no instruction that a man had to be married, only that he could have no more than one wife. In Luke 8, Jesus Himself was the one personally doing the preaching and was never married. This obviously means it was not required. Jesus and his disciples weren’t performing miracles to keep themselves fed and clothed. They relied on the generosity of people like these women. There was nothing sinful going on. Like Paul was a tent maker to support his ministry, these women could have very well been working as they went, cooking meals, sewing and spreading the Good News of what Christ had done for them. I am sure the disciples were doing their fare share of telling the good news and testifying as to all they had seen. The Pharisees saw everything as sinful unless they were doing it or wanted it to be alright. As for Polyandry–I don’t know why any woman would want 2 men at the same time. One was more than enough for me. Being single is better yet.
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Titus 1 says he must be the husband of one wife, not that if married he must have no more than one wife. The literal reading of the passage requires marriage and being a man in order to be an elder.
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So there was some massive phallocentric conspiracy of oppression which reigned from the time of the apostles for 1800 years, across continents, languages and cultures?
Sorry, I had to do that, because I thought the topic was support for families of female seminarians.
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Tim, I look at the Bible as a whole, the Living Word of God. Paul had already said that if you can’t control your urges that a man should have his own wife. (Obviously, my rewrite.) He also said that it would be better for all to be as he was, celibate. He didn’t have the distractions of a family to keep him from the Lord’s work. That would not have been wise however as God had already commanded the population of the world. Paul’s way wouldn’t have produced much fruit in that department.
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I look at the whole of Scripture too, Brenda, and that’s why I don’t take the Titus verse as prescriptive that only men and only married men can be elders. 😉
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Keith, perhaps it was like chain of being tconspiracy of various forms of caste system and slavery? Also across languages cultures and continents for a millennia. (Wink)
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Tim, what is interesting about these so-called prescriptions in the New Testament is how did the Corinthians know the prescription? the Philippians? the churches were not all getting the same memo. the Corinthian church had been around for quite a while and not one mention of elders. those letters were written to the entire church. Was Chloe an elder? She “had people”. :o)
even the case for elders is not an across the board prescription as some want us to believe.
these forced prescriptive interpretations make us miss the larger message in order to be busy applying rules and roles.
another thought is that early Christians had no New Testament. and they certainly did not have old testiment scrolls in their dining room cabinet. but they did have the Holy Spirit. and I fear sometimes the Bible has replaced the Holy Spirit as our guide and counselor. then the question becomes whose translation and interpretation is our guide and counselor?
I do not put Paul on the same level as Jesus Christ. I believe Paul is best understood through Jesus Christ.
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Tim,
One day we’ll sit around the feet of the Savior listening to what he has to say about what was meant by all of this. Or maybe He won’t mention what happened here at all. I am quite sure that neither of us will care one iota who was right or wrong. I personally don’t want to be a pastor, elder or deacon or even a deaconess (possibly the wife of one husband). I’m sure since I am divorced I would not qualify anyhow even though it was for Biblical cause.
My issue is that I do not see one instance of a woman being in any of those positions in the NT. Priscilla helped as a teacher and filling Paul in on what he needed to know. Jesus called only men as his disciples and apostles. There were women who traveled with them, but not in those positions. They had important jobs to do, but not the same jobs.
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Brenda, I don’t really understand your view. if you believe that women can share the gospel are you saying there is a difference between that and an institutionalized position of pastor or elder?
what is it exactly that you believe women are prohibited from doing in the body of Christ? I am just not clear on where you are coming from.
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Yes, Lydia,
I do believe that women can share the gospel with anyone. When the church body meets together, however I believe that the pastor, and if there are elders, they are to be men. I don’t believe that women should be filling the pulpit on Sunday morning. Song leaders, greeters, teachers, women’s ministry all are things women can do. Women can be missionaries. There is nothing wrong with having informal devotions and discussions with men. Sometimes there are no men to do these things. I had the honor or meeting a missionary a couple of years ago. She married a man who also wanted to be a missionary. They chose a place where no one else wanted to go because of the dangers. He passed away many years ago and she continued on their mission alone. She did not preach as such, but did have devotional and discussion times around the table. Not quite the same thing. Eventually a man from the tribe was saved and became their minister. If Jesus didn’t call his disciples and apostles from the female population that was available, that is good enough for me. He called men. Women are most definitely to be as educated in all things Christ the same as a man and be able to have intelligent discussions just as a man should.
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Lydia00,
I once held the idea that women were limited to serve in the body of Christ. To my regret, I thought the pastor & elders were my spiritual leaders and I needed to submit to their authority. They were the experts. That only led to pain & more pain. i was indoctrinated by them. I was naive & trusting. I didn’t convert till I was 28 years old, I had no biblical upbringing, so I didn’t trust myself to rightly interpret scripture. What a freaking lie that was. I believed what I was taught by men, line, hook & sinker.
Some ladies at X-church wanted to start a MOPS ministry, well, that caused a small ruckus, the pastor & elders had to approve, they didn’t like the idea of women teaching in the church. They finally approved the ministry because it would be women teaching women! I look back on that and marvel that I fell for such nonsense. I love reading your comments, they continue to open my mind, & free my spirit from false teachings. Now, if I listen to a preacher, I ask Jesus & the Holy Spirit, to help me discern, because I won’t be fooled again.
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I think it is a hoot that Jesus first appeared to a woman after his death & resurrection! Go & tell the disciples! God has a wild sense of humor, IMHO.
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lydia00 wrote :
“Muff is joking around.”
Indeed I am lydia. Much in the same way Mel Brooks would for comedic relief. The Scripture reference was to 1 Timothy 2:12, where Paul allegedly issues a universal prohibition (according to the tenets of fundagelicalism) on women teaching the Christian faith as derived from the Bible.
Back around the turn of the century, I changed my mind on women in the pulpit after reading Katharine Bushnell’s treatise: God’s Word to Women. Her sane and sound exegesis of the Pauline texts convinced me that a wooden and literal reading of Paul with regard to supposed ‘gender roles written in stone’ does not have to be the norm for all.
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JA, I had forgotten that snake had included your daughter in the lawsuit. Stupid man should know to never mess with a mama bear’s cub! How is Hannah doing? Has she found her passion?
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Brenda, there were no pulpits and what that represents in the 1st century Body. Women were preaching to mixed gender in the Corinthian church. Check out 1 Corinthian 11. The conundrum was whether to cover while doing so.
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She’s doing pretty well. She reads and posts here from time to time. She followed her boyfriend when he made a business move to Hawaii. She got a job quickly and is doing well. It’s sad for me that she’s so far away, but modern technology helps. We are in touch most days via texting, Facebook, phone or snaphats. Thanks for asking, Ann.
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Gail, I am so glad you dropped the scared part. my favorite book of the Bible is 1 John. All believers have anointing. We have all believed silly lies. What freedom it is to admit it!
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BrendaR, have you ever heard of the apostle (yes, apostle) Junia? A woman. An apostle. Her name was changed to give the appearance that she was a he by the Bible translators.
There are so many women who traveled with Christ, who were commended by him. He send women as the first missionaries to preach the Gospel (his resurrection) to his male apostles. That’s undeniable. In the early church, there were women commended by Paul or Peter, women who had the church meetings in their homes and very likely preached. Looking at the letters written to the various churches as if they weren’t speaking to specific problems IN THOSE CHURCHES means we are missing the point. Paul and the other epistle writers had no idea that we’d still be reading their letters thousands of years on and taking them as prescriptive for the Church today. The men who chose which letters belonged in the Bible weren’t any less fallible than the men who wrote them (and some had distinct agendas, as well).
I’m not saying we shouldn’t be reading those letters with an eye to how we should comport ourselves as Christians. I do think we need to keep in mind the cultures and specific issues of the churches they were written to as we read.
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Gail, No. I do not agree that women must SUBMIT to the pastor and elders. You do have the right to question them. Their word is not God. If something is wrong, it is wrong. If that is what they want from you it is wrong and you need to find a good functioning church body.
Our church has a MOPS ministry and are encouraged to do so. They’ve even added a ministry for those with children in school. I can’t remember what that is called right now. As far as preaching, Baptism and Communion the pastor and elders take care of those things. Believe me, I ask the pastor many questions and have told him that I do not agree with some things that are said and am not shy about asking others the same questions.
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Lydia,
You said: Did you know women had much more freedom in that area years before? Especially in the SBC
I didn’t include Methodist churches as I know little about them. I do know that the Baptist church that I was raised in was a part of the Missionary Baptists that parted ways with the SBC because they were allowing women to become ordained in the church. I grew up with that being taught in the 60’s. How long before the split actually happened, I have no idea.
I do agree there were no pulpits in first century churches. They taught from the hip, from what they knew of Jesus and his Ministry. Not a lot was written down. Pulpits came about so the Bible and notes could be placed there. It’s a glorified desk.
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“Gail, I am so glad you dropped the scared part. my favorite book of the Bible is 1 John. All believers have anointing. We have all believed silly lies. What freedom it is to admit it!’
Thanks Lydia! It is freeing & I am grateful.
Brenda: “If that is what they want from you it is wrong and you need to find a good functioning church body.”
Brenda,
i have been out of that church for years. And when I need church, I gather with friends who have dropped out of the building, or i stop by SSB. Don’t see the need to find a good functioning church body.
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Gail,
Whatever works for you. : ) It’s all between you and God.
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“i have been out of that church for years. And when I need church, I gather with friends who have dropped out of the building, or i stop by SSB. Don’t see the need to find a good functioning church body.”
I totally agree. People seem to think there is something big missing from your life when you stop. It has really been the opposite. I approach people differently now. I will admit that those who are totally immersed in the institutions scare me a bit. I have trust issues with them after all my experiences and consutling in the mega world and even with smaller churches as a member. I know where their alleigences lie and it is not with objective truth in uncomfortable situations. They will almost always give the leadership the benefit of the doubt without firm evidence. And we all know there is NEVER firm evidience of wrong doing because it is hidden well as those we have trusted with power are want to do nd because the pew sitters have gone along with simple things like not demanding to see detailed budgets and voting on them.
I am also tired of the whole focus of the pew sitter being a dolt who cannot study for themselves. They have to be taught truth of someone elses interpretation. Grown ups cannot meet and discuss these things learning from one another? They have to sit and face a guy on a stage who tells them what to think? Sorry but years of this has its influence we cannot even fathom. What ever happened to the Holy Spirit being our guide and counselor? One big wake up call for me was to realize that we are to mature in wisdom, develop fully….and the scripture is interpreted, be perfect like your heavenly Father is perfect.
The institutions are set up to keep people immature and needing the milk fix every week. There was a video on Ingrids blog that talked about the real meaning of fellowship. The speaker said it was the coming together to solve problems together. Who needs help with what. Like a family. NT Wright talks about it as “facing our neighbors problems”.
Churches will claim they are doing these things but it is actually so rare that when you see a concrete example of it you are amazed. Mega’s claim they do this but, trust me, they don’t. And it is almost impossible to explain to folks the problems with most church benevolence. A work friend called me the other day. She is trying to help a homeless woman and the woman asked if she could print out a application for help from the local mega. This is a HOMELESS WOMAN. The application was 8 pages long! And she could only ask for help with one thing like a deposit on a place or fixing a car or paying an electric bill. NO ONE from that church seeks to befriend her. It is strictly a charity transaction and she is made to feel unworthy and cannot fill in the applicatoin because most of it does not apply to her. I have tried to explain to people for years why most church benevolence is a joke.
And mega pastors will take offerings from poor single moms while they buy 85 acres in an upscale area (Are you hearing me, Kyle Idleman?) or a big house on a golf course (Are you hearing me, Dave Stone?) Yet they will encourage other poor single moms to give offerings by featuring their “sacrifice” on the front page of a widely circulated “church” newspaper. They are selling LIES about Jesus Christ to keep the money flowing in. The single mom is being fed lies, too. She needs to save what little she can for her children’s future. Not fund a mega church pastors comfortable lifestyle.
let me be frank about this: God HATES this. It won’t go unanswered. If folks know Jesus, they know this instinctively. And these mega church celebrity rich boys are ignorant of the fact that they have CHOSEN to receive their reward now. They really do not think Matthew 5-7 pertains to them.
So when you hear of their benevolece funds, keep in mind how it usually works. If that is fellowship–no thanks. The world is actually nicer in many respects than what passes for the Body–but isn’t. Now, be ready because they will do some PR to change the “image” of what they do. I know the drill. Been there done that. The problem is the pew sitters believe what they are told.
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“I do agree there were no pulpits in first century churches. They taught from the hip, from what they knew of Jesus and his Ministry. Not a lot was written down. Pulpits came about so the Bible and notes could be placed there. It’s a glorified desk.”
Actually, they are traced back to the Pagan temples. They had “orator” pulpits and an altar for worship. When Connie legalized Christianity the Greek temples were turned into “churches”. the “orator” is where the idea of a preacher in a building comes from. In the NT, we see that most “preaching” was done outside or in other places outside the meetings. Not always. Paul got in so much trouble he had to rent a school (Hall of Tyrannis) and hoped folks would come to listen. But even that did not last that long. It was simply not permenant.
The Body was never intended to have one person teaching many and the many looking up to the one. I would say a better representation would be sitting around a living room. I did read one archeology paper that was very interesting concerning home churches in that era. They speculated that the average home in say, Ephesus could hold about 30 folks for meeting. They found one home that had obviously been remodeled to hold 70 people. An unusual thing for that time so they speculated it might have been for the body.
Pulpits were meant to set the speaker apart from the group. The speaker has more influence and credbility when they are apart from and are and higher than the group. Think if that same person were simply sitting close to you in the living room. Big difference.
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“And mega pastors will take offerings from poor single moms while they buy 85 acres in an upscale area (Are you hearing me, Kyle Idleman?) or a big house on a golf course (Are you hearing me, Dave Stone?) Yet they will encourage other poor single moms to give offerings by featuring their “sacrifice” on the front page of a widely circulated “church” newspaper. They are selling LIES about Jesus Christ to keep the money flowing in. The single mom is being fed lies, too. She needs to save what little she can for her children’s future. Not fund a mega church pastors comfortable lifestyle.”
That makes me so sick I am almost in tears. I have to remember that is not Christianity and does not represent Jesus. Still, I feel for those under that delusion. I have extended family falling for the whole tithe and be blessed/name it claim it shtick.
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Yes, I’ve had experience with the country club pastor thing, too.
About fifteen years ago, we were fairly poor. I had quit working to stay home with our daughter, and we were having trouble making ends meet. The smallish mega we attended at the time taught heavily on complementarianism, women staying home with the kids, etc.
We had to approach the church for help catching up on past-due bills at one point. I remember speaking to the one female deacon, who told me that she really hoped that our phone bill wasn’t too big, because one of the elders (who apparently all reviewed all applications for assistance) had a problem with people who ran up large phone bills. It was utterly humiliating.
Fast forward about seven years, to when my husband was earning six figures. We were regular tithers, and received an invitation to the home of the Big Cheese (senior pastor) for a dessert. The church was preparing to begin a large, expensive building project, and the big givers were being invited to come hear about the vision.
The home of the senior pastor was enormous, and on the semi-exclusive, private golf course in the area. He drove a $60,000 pickup. I remember wondering how the heck they could afford to live like that, but figuring it must be from book sales (he and his wife are both published).
I know now that outside of superstar authors, no one makes that kind of money from occasional authorship. They lived like rock stars because the church that felt our phone bill was too high paid them that way.
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Persephone,
Wasn’t a detailed budget shows at business meetings? I get a copy before each meeting so I know where money is going. The pastor lives in a small home that has an attached apartment so they can rent it out for extra money, but it is nothing elaborate whatsoever and he and his wife drive used vehicles. There are far wealthier people in the church. 2 years ago the pastor took a 15% paycut because donations were down.
Even Francis Chan speaks of downgrading the size of their home so they could give more back and most of the profits from his books go back to the Lord. What ever happened to Servants of the Lord?
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“Gail, No. I do not agree that women must SUBMIT to the pastor and elders. You do have the right to question them. Their word is not God. If something is wrong, it is wrong. If that is what they want from you it is wrong and you need to find a good functioning church body.”
Brenda, What I am hearing is that you think there are authority positions in the Body and those must be men.
The main reason seems to be because you do not see it modeled in the NT that women were elders, etc. (We don’t really know who were elders as most letters are written to the entire body and the word ‘office” was added by translators so they would be functions not positions/offices. More verbs than nouns.) We also do not see a female Savior so what are we to do with that? Does it matter for women? If gender is so all important to this issue, what do we do without a female Savior? How can we model our Savior?
You have said that women do not have to submit to these men but I am not sure what that means when there has to be men in those positions. If having males in those positions is not about anatomy authority, then what is it about?.
So believing God wants only men in certain positions within the Body…. what do you think is God’s purpose purpose behind having only the male anatomy in these positions? Why would the female anatomy be a hindrance in these positions in the Body? That is what this all boils down to: Anatomy. It cannot be spiritual. Women are full heirs of all that is promised including gifts. So I am curious where you are coming from.
I think you have bought into the segregation culture. Separate but equal. You say women are equal in the Body but they really aren’t.
” Some are more equal than others” —
George Orwell
(Note, I believe God works within the culture at the time. It is one of the reasons He allowed polygamy and other situations. He works with, through and around people always wooing us to make the right choices. Mostly we don’t. But it is a big mistake to think God overrides the current culture..)
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Lydia,
If we don’t want to use a pulpit or altar because of pagans, we will also have to give up yoga because it dates back to Eastern pagan snake worshipping, Easter egg hunts because it represents the Romans chasing down Christians for crucifixion and the list goes on and on. What do we use them for now? I do yoga for gentle stretching exercise. I have used the pulpit to teach from or give a talk on whatever. Perhaps that is why we needed buildings. There was no where large enough to hold the number of people that were coming. There are a LOT of churches in the city where I live. Some may only have 75-100 but most are many more than that. One that is less than 1/4 mile from where I attend has 3 Sunday morning services and average 8k. That personally is not for me. Where I attend there is about 400-450 and that is really too many for my preference. It is no longer very personal. I don’t even recognize half of the people there. If I knew of a house church, I would give it a whirl, Although I know of house churches in FL that are just as corrupt and patriarchial as the mega churches. You just don’t know what is going to be safe and if it starts out that way it doesn’t mean it won’t change and the urge to move on hits.
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JA, Hawaii? I can’t think of a better place to have to go visit my child!!! I hope you have an opportunity to go visit and also give yourself a vacation in paradise! 🙂
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Brenda, I was only disagreeing with your historical context for pulpits and their use in the body. there is no way I’m giving up my yoga stretching simply because it came from pagan origins. I do not see my yoga stretching as putting myself above others in a sort of caste system within the body of Christ. I do however believe that pulpit and stages do just that. some traditions even add special clothes. I think it is simple logic that these things came from a desire to separate a special class of people from others in the body of Christ.
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That’s a dream, Ann.
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“They are selling LIES about Jesus Christ to keep the money flowing in. The single mom is being fed lies, too. She needs to save what little she can for her children’s future. Not fund a mega church pastors comfortable lifestyle.”
Somebody posted this link on a TWW post. It fits right in with this convo.
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2014/12/bah-humbug-sbc-president-tells-pastors.html
“Yesterday on Ronnie Floyd’s blog, he announced to all Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) Pastors that they must hound their non-tithing members weekly, to let them know Ronnie has set a deadline of December 31, 2014, for them to come into obedience and tithe on their 2014 income.”
I’ve said before that, after exiting a bona fide cult, I’m rather surprised to see some of Churchianity out here more closely resembling the cult. No kidding. I wonder how long it will be before the “discernment blogs” see an uptick in victims sharing their experiences.
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Lydia, I don’t know about other churches. There are no robes in the church, the pastor often wears jeans and our “stage” is one step up so you can see who is talking. Sometimes kids will be up there giving scripture reading and I really want to see them as they are doing their reading. Inevitably a 6’8″ man will be sitting in front of me and at 5’1″ I still have a hard time seeing. I didn’t say what I did as historical fact, it was just made sense to me. Now the yoga thing can be traced back to the snake worshippers which many would argue a Christian should have nothing to do with. I personally am not getting into snake worshipping, but need my stretching. So I merelytell people to “back off” of my exercise.
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BTDT,
That is insane. He has no right to tell anyone in the church what to do. Give what is in accordance to what you discuss with God. They do not have the authority to tell people what to do. Pastors and elders are suppose to be gentle, respectful servants. Not dictators.
Lydia,
I think this is where we go in different ways. You seem to see pastors and elders and authoritative, where I see them as servants. They are to serve the church, not dictate over it.
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BTDT – I probably tweeted that article and posted it on the SSB FB at the same time you were posting. Unreal. I also tagged Ronnie Floyd asking him, “Really, Ronnie?”
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Brenda and JA,
The SBC is the denomination I grew up in. It’s the denomination I was baptized in at 10 years old. (Of course, I now know my family were moderates– not the fundamentalist bent that has taken over.) I don’t ever remember this “tithe or else” message coming from the pulpit as a little girl. It did from the cult’s pulpit. It was what they called a “point of fellowship.” If you didn’t tithe they’d disfellowship you over it. Any wonder why Floyd’s message sounds cultic to me?
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I just left this comment on Ronnie Floyd’s tithing blog post, but it’s in moderation. Wonder if he’ll let it go through:
“Sorry, Ronny, but tithing is not required anywhere under the New Covenant. God’s blessings are ours whether we give a ton or give a little; to teach differently is to teach legalism. ‘Since we are no longer a theocracy, the tithe is no longer operational.’“
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Brenda, it is impossible to separate “special “people out in special positions without it evolving into some sort of authoritative situation. If there were persecution and their lives at stake that is one thing. Elders serving themselves up first so the others can escape, etc. It is functional and maturity the biggest part. however there is no formal structure and from what we can tell most of the early church did not have them.
But this still does not explain why only men can serve in an elder function. What is it elders/psstors do that make it a male preserve? if there is no prohibition to women teaching and leading men in the Old Testament why do you think there is a new one in the New Testament?
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Lydia,
Could you point out where women were teaching and leading men in the OT. Other than Deborah who was a judge when there were no men available who were qualified, I don’t recall a Godly woman who was a leader.
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