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The dangers of assumptions and labeling in Christiandom
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I’ve been stewing about something for a while now and hope I can articulate my thoughts clearly. Today, I found an example that might give a window into what my brain has been stewing about.
Is Thabiti Anyabwile really promoting Rachel Held Evans . . . . or not?
Take a look at this tweet sent out by Pastor Thabiti Anyabwile in which he links to an article by Rachel Held Evans. Are you surprised that he linked to Rachel Held Evans? I was. My first thought was: cool! I think it’s great that he could look beyond their doctrinal differences and connect with Rachel on something in her words that rings true for him. But my second thought was: “Uh-oh, what will his Gospel Coalition (TGC) friends think of this?” Rachel Held Evans is not highly respected in TGC camp and I know that even linking to her blog in a positive way will likely send a message of “endorsement” to some people.
Sure enough, those comments came in:
https://twitter.com/samwisejams/status/509718315980185601
https://twitter.com/rowdie_jones/status/509720361089241088
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Is Julie Anne is in Peter Lumpkins’ camp . . . . or not?
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The above tweet is from J.D. Hall. He tweeted this after I tweeted something about Peter Lumpkins. (My Twitter handle is @DefendtheSheep.) I don’t know much about Peter Lumpkins and his doctrinal background. I do know that he wrote an important document, a sex abuse resolution to submit to the Southern Baptist Convention. I would applaud that effort whether Lumpkins was Arminian, Calvinist, New Calvinist, or even a Muslim. Yes, even a Muslim, because I care about protecting children from sex abuse. You’ll notice that JD Hall (Pulpit and Pen) assumed that Lumpkins and I are on the same “side.” This is not the only tweet in which Hall has assumed we are good buddies.
Is Julie Anne an egalitarian . . . . or not?
A while back, I saw an article in which a Twitter follower of mine wrote an article based on one of my articles. He gave background info on me indicating I was an egalitarian. He also had me labeled in other ways which left me scratching my head, “say what?” How could he come to those doctrinal conclusions about me when I hadn’t even come to those conclusions myself? After our discussion, he scrubbed the article.
Is Julie Anne’s friend, Michelle, a Calvinist . . . . .or not?
Earlier, I made a comment referring to my friend, Michelle. Michelle and her family were part of the church (BGBC and Pastor Chuck O’Neal) we came from. I mentioned that Michelle considered herself to be a Calvinist. She happened to read that comment and sent me a text saying that she didn’t consider herself to be Calvinist/Reformed, that she hadn’t read much of Calvin. Thankfully, she wasn’t offended by my comment, but I felt bad and confused. I texted her back and then called her on the phone. What had I misunderstood?
You see, a couple of years ago when their family visited our family, Michelle and I went for a walk and we had a conversation about Calvinism and TULIP, and I jokingly told her that I thought TULIP was ridiculous (I’m blunt like that). I told her that someone put together TULIP and right now it is the go-to “flower” for Calvinism and maybe next year it will be DAFFODIL as someone conjures up some other sort of system with the letters of D-A-F-F-O-D-I-L. Of course I was being facetious. I was correct in that Michelle had once identified herself as Calvinist, but now she’s not comfortable with that label. Boy, do I ever get that.
Michelle and I have gone back and forth on certain doctrinal issues,we sometimes differ in our interpretation of scripture, but we always come back to the fact that we both are in strong agreement on primary doctrinal issues. We love each other as sisters in Christ, we respect each other, and because of that, we can overlook secondary doctrinal differences. She probably won’t convince me to sway to her beliefs and I probably won’t convince her to sway to mine. Sometimes it’s fun to debate and challenge each other, but in the end, we encourage each other towards Christ. Man, it’s great to have a friend like that.
Did David Robertson “cancel the Reformation” when he “sided” with Catholics?
My former pastor gets caught up in this black/white, all-or-nothing thinking, too. You have to meet certain criteria for him to even associate with you. In this tweet, he calls out Scottish pastor David Robertson for aligning with Catholics based on a couple of short sentences taken out of context. This is a hot topic for O’Neal. If you like anyone who has any ministry work with Catholics, you are guilty of being in the wrong camp. O’Neal says in the tweet to listen to the 4-5 minute mark. I’d encourage you to continue listening past the 5-minute mark where Robertson explains his stance further.
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Is SSB promoting errant doctrines?
Sometimes people attempt to make things very rigid and black and white. Some of us even, including me, after having left an abusive black/white church situation can easily get caught into this trap. It’s happened here on the blog and I want to put this on the table for discussion.
Last week, I posted a very short video by N.T. Wright. I don’t know all of the doctrinal background of Wright. I posted it because many of us who were spiritually abused have gotten bogged down by errant doctrines, by man-made rules, or legalism. What I’ve heard expressed by SSB readers is a desire to go back to the foundation: a relationship with Jesus. That’s where I’m at, too. That’s what the video expressed to me. It brought me back to the importance of the gospels and of my relationship with Jesus, away from all of the spiritual clutter and confusion around me.
Some people did not like the video because they have put N.T. Wright’s teachings into a category of errant doctrine and so no matter what he says, it cannot be correct. Evidently I created quite a doctrinal ruckus causing some e-mails to be sent to others regarding my lack of judgment. Perhaps the e-mails said something like this: “Hey, did you see what JA just posted? I think she’s off her doctrinal rocker.”
I’m not quite sure how someone can decide that I’m off my doctrinal rocker as I haven’t really disclosed a lot about my doctrinal beliefs. I have a few “absolutely nots” – ie, Patriarchy, but overall, as I have been recovering from my spiritually abusive church and residual mess, I have decided to put secondary doctrinal issues temporarily on the shelf. To me, it’s more important to save what is important and essential: my relationship with Christ.
We are all unique individuals on a spiritual journey. For most of us, our spiritual journey has evolved or refined and sometimes we do not fit in nicely wrapped and labeled boxes.
Now – let me go a little further and relate it to SSB and the commenting here. I’ve been getting some feedback (both private a-mail and in blog comments) about how SSB is hostile towards Calvinists and there’s been criticism on how I moderate comments. There is concern that I let certain people who are labeled by some to have errant beliefs have more of a platform. The concern is that people might be influenced into wrong doctrinal beliefs. On the other side, there are those who say I let the anti-Calvinists give too much push back against Calvinists/Reformed and they dominate the blog creating a hostile environment for anyone who comes here wearing the label “Reformed or Calvinist.” There could be some truth to both of those conclusions and I’m sure that I do miss things in moderating.
That said, the primary goal of this blog is to be a refuge and encouragement for those who have suffered spiritual abuse. Now, I know there are some that will say, “but wait – – it is the Calvinist doctrine which is the heart of the abuse.” I get why some would say that. I certainly have seen abuse in Calvinist churches. But instead of dealing with the big picture, I think it’s important to get to know people right where they are without the labels. And in order for us to do that, it’s important to make sure we know where the other person is coming from before diving in.
JA identified as Catholic, but was a Christian?
Can you stand just one more example? Part of my childhood, I was raised Catholic. When I was in high school (a Catholic high school), I rededicated my life to Christ and devoured scripture. But I also considered myself Catholic. But wait -you might ask – how can that be? Well, I practiced my faith as closely to the Bible as I could, even while leading a “praise and worship team” at my Catholic church. If there was something within the Catholic tradition that did not line up with scripture, I didn’t hold to it. For example, when I went up for communion at my Catholic church, I did not believe in Catholic transubstantiation. I took the wafer as a Protestant would take communion. The wafer did not represent the literal body and blood of Christ to me. When people around me said, “holy Mary, mother of God,” I didn’t recite that part. I rejected it.
You see, I was living in a home with Catholic parents. I felt it was my responsibility to honor my parents as best as I could while under the roof. I prayed about it and this is what I felt God telling me was acceptable for me. I formally left the Catholic church on the day I got married and left my parents’ home. My point is that I labeled myself as a Catholic. If you were to assume I was a Catholic in the true sense of the word based on my label, there would have been misunderstanding. (A side note, not one of my immediate family is Catholic any more – they go to protestant churches.)
I think there are people who because they go to a Reformed church, label themselves as Calvinists, but may not be too clear on what that means. They may be following along because that’s where their husband brought them. It’s important that we dig deeper before assuming.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that labels do not adequately tell the whole picture, and sometimes they portray the wrong picture. Because I post a video about NT Wright, doesn’t mean that I hold to Wright’s doctrine. When I retweet someone’s tweet, it might be just because I am in agreement with only the message on their tweet. Because I work out with a Pilates DVD does not mean I endorse Yoga’s spiritual philosophies. We need to be very careful about judging others based on specific connections or language used.
But let me make this perfectly clear. If John Piper or C.J. Mahaney or even Mark Driscoll were to tweet something like:
“Cilantro should never be part of a cuisine, it should be identified as chief among weeds,” I will be the first person to stand behind that tweet and retweet it – maybe even a few times, and y’all are just going to have to deal with that. 🙂
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photo credit: Henna Sooq via photopin cc
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Do people, especially leaders, forget the 1 Corinthians 12 discussion of the body? We need all kinds because my kind may not click with someone more like your kind. And, after all, we are all supposed to gravitate towards Jesus…
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You’re wrong about cilantro, of course, that delightfully flavorful herb and chelator of mercury and lead, but your benightedness here is not spiritually fatal!
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Peter,
I’m about to moderate you.
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Oh, thank you for this. It only took me about 45 years to figure out that I really don’t fit many “molds”, and that’s OK. Thankfully, I don’t fit the “born-again Christian” mold anymore, although I still am one. I think it’s more important to be who God made us to be, and love Jesus with all our hearts, than turn oursleves into automotrons to make church more “convenient” for those who don’t want to deal with variations. Thank you for giving people like me a safe place to learn, vent, grow and rejoice!
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Wonderful post! Of course, I concur with Peter, so you may have to moderate me as well.. 😉
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“You see, I was living in a home with Catholic parents. I felt it was my responsibility to honor my parents as best as I could while under the roof..”
I am in an identical situation. However, the Lord says, #1 “come out of her” (Catholic false church) and #2 “whoever doesn’t t forsake his mother and father… for my sake is not worthy of me.”
That was enough for me. Obviously, I am going to obey him above any earthly family ties. My responsibility is to honor God above all. In addition, it’s a testimony on my part. I would never put honoring of my parents above obeying God. I figured that praying (about this issue) would not be appropriate in this situation. Obedience is the only option because he is pretty clear on this point. I do not believe he would direct someone to do something against his holy and unchangeable word.
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Jerry, that’s the cool thing about our spiritual journeys – they don’t all look alike and we each have to try our best to obey and honor God. Yours obviously played out differently.
I’ll never have regrets about staying in the Catholic Church for those extra years. Probably because I was honoring my parents, they allowed me to go to a Protestant church’s midweek service and Sunday evening service and youth group (when available). My parents knew of my doctrinal struggle. During that time I was really listening to what was spoken at both churches and my faith grew. It was an excellent opportunity to witness and also point my Catholic friends to God’s word and Jesus. My closest friends from the praise and worship team also left Catholicism. One is now a pastor. It seems that God did work through that difficult situation. I have no regrets.
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Thanks for this. I haven’t posted much lately, simply because I haven’t had anything worth saying (and I was mostly getting ignored anyway…). But I’ve always had difficulty fitting in to the church cultures that I’ve been a part of, primarily because I’ve always leaned liberal on political and social issues and it seems too many churches around make it sound like being conservative on these issues is essential to being a good Christian, or a real Christian, or whatever.
I don’t know what I think about Hell, I’ve always supported gay marriage/gay rights, I don’t believe that sex is automatically immoral before marriage, among other things. But you’re absolutely right that ultimately, as Christians, we need to follow Jesus. Remember his two greatest commandments: love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Follow these two commandments and everything will fall into place. Of course, this is simultaneously simple and extremely difficult, and I get it wrong constantly.
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One of the encouraging things I find in the present state of Christianity in the United States, or at least where I live, is that many of the laity, the pew sitting sheeple, don’t seem to be particularly concerned about denominational labels and barriers. There is an older Catholic person I have occasion to spend time with. Neither of us has any doubt that the other is Christian. In our conversations, the underlying assumption is that Jesus is Lord and that He is active in our day to day lives. We may not see eye to eye on the place of, say, works, but do you know what, we both believe that our salvation was purchased on the Cross.
To tell you the truth, I think my Catholic friend is closer to the truth than much of evangelical Protestantism when it comes to the question of the place of works in the Christian walk. We non-Catholics can tend to think that grace replaces works. Not so. I believe it is Dallas Willard who observed something along the lines that grace does not replace works, in the sense of effort. Rather, it takes the place of, or excludes the possibility of, works-earned merit. While I have heard Ephesians 2:8-9 over and over (we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, etc.), I do not believe I have ever heard a sermon preached on the next verse: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10 ESV)
joelfrederick is quite right to point out that we are one body, and we need one another. Even our Catholic brothers and sisters can and will enrich us in areas where we can tend to be quite blind.
As to the question of cilantro–well, this may be one of those instances where I CANNOT simply agree to disagree. 🙂
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Random, I’m with you many of your beliefs. Getting it wrong means you’re human – join the crew.
JA, I’m sorry you’ve had some flak but it IS your blog; if there are people who don’t like the way you run it they certainly have options. Such as not reading, not commenting, and starting their own blog. Some things are just too obvious.
Of course, the ones complaining are probably the same ones who show up here to say the following: “MY brand of Xianity is the best and here’s why!” It has an important element – their moral superiority is established (at least in their minds). It’s that jostling for the designation of ‘True Christian’ that I find quite amusing – and certainly has a way of crumbling one’s credibility. Discerning readers will realize what I’m talking about.
You GO, girl!! I think you do a great job – it’s tied directly to the person you are.
I wonder how many private e-mails THIS response will elicit?? 🙂
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Great Blog! I thought God’s doctrine was love the Lord with your heart, mind, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Stick with this and our faith would shine more brightly. JA, I think there are many people who can’t deal with paradoxes. I don’t think this site feels safe for them. Thank you for not shunning those who are walking towards Christ in ways that aren’t necessarily identical to yours!
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Regarding the doctrine of cilantro, I find this authoritative statement: “Some people may be genetically predisposed to dislike cilantro, according to often-cited studies by Charles J. Wysocki of the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/dining/14curious.html?_r=0
In other words, some are unconditionally foreordained to receive cilantro, and some to reject it. Praise be, I am amongst the elect!
Not sure how this contributes to the conversation, but there you have it.
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LOL, Gary. I’m the only one in the family who detests it. Sometimes the stench is so strong, I eat by myself. Cilantro is a funny topic – it’s usually a love/hate thing. I may have dropped some readers because of this confession.
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Thank you for putting into words what has been simmering in my brain for several weeks. I was starting to wonder if I was the only one who was seeing it.
This idea that if you don’t completely agree with someone’s “doctrine” then you shouldn’t listen to anything they say is ridiculous. I am only vaguely familiar with Rachel Held Evans and there are some things I disagree with her about but that doesn’t mean I should automatically disregard everything she says. Just yesterday I read an article from someone in the Gospel Coalition who I wouldn’t normally read but he made excellent points and I was glad I read it.
And the assumptions people make based on one or two comments or ideas a person has are getting out of hand. You agreed with Peter Lumpkins about something and now you have a “coalition”? You put up a video by N.T. Wright and you’re teaching “doctrinal error”? I’ve noticed commenters on other blogs get torn to shreds by bloggers and other commenters who make broad assumptions about what that person believes based on the fact that the person has a different opinion or doesn’t agree in lockstep with what the blogger said. And the worst assumption of all – “if you don’t agree with what I said then I have to doubt your salvation.” Ugh.
I greatly enjoy reading other points of view and being challenged in my thinking. How will I learn anything new if I only stay in my little box and only interact with people who think exactly like I do? I trust that the Lord will lead me where he wants me to go and show me what he wants me to learn.
As for the cilantro issue I have to follow a restricted diet so I don’t eat it and am completely neutral on the issue. And I think you do a great job moderating and I enjoy reading here.
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“Because I post a video about NT Wright, doesn’t mean that I hold to Wright’s doctrine. When I retweet someone’s tweet, it might be just because I am in agreement with only the message on their tweet. Because I work out with a Pilates DVD does not mean I endorse Yoga’s spiritual philosophies”
I have come to accept that I am a woman without a political party or a denomination which should actually make me a better “American” and “Christian”. (wink)
. But then, repudiating movements, cult of personality, etc…. has been the best thing in my life. Let us be Free to think,reason and discuss actual issues instead of making it about “sides”.
However, I do confess to something. When I consistently hear the gurus quoted as declarative (in the sense of indoctrination) I do tend to automatically think in terms of determinism. Comes from experience. I need to move. :o)
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Carmen,
I don’t worry about negative e-mails about the blog. Everybody is entitled to their opinion based on their perception. It did occur to me after reading one of the e-mails that I think there might be confusion about my moderating. I am not at my laptop or desktop all day. When I am mom taxi, I’ll take a look at comments when I’m stopped at stoplights. I’ll quickly glance through as many as I can. The deal is that the comments come in from different threads. Sometimes I’m going back and forth between threads and then have a kid in the back seat arguing because his sibling is encroaching on his personal space or looked at him wrong. I’ve got tons of things going on at the same time and have difficulty following the whole context of the thread. I try to get the context of the flow of comments, but sometimes I can’t. So, when I am generally commenting to a comment, it is just to that specific comment.
Here’s an example of what my phone looks like when comments come in.
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Julie Anne, I am offended by your screenshot.
I mean, seriously, you use AT&T? Don’t you know that Verizon is the only cell phone company worth using? Come on!!
😉 😉 😉 😉 (coming from somebody that doesn’t use either company)
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Ahh, JA – thanks for the ‘lesson’; I’m afraid I’m not a ‘tech-savvy Nannie’ ! ha, ha – I’m lucky to be able to do as little as I DO! I admire you – it all seems to much for my little ol’ peabrain. . .
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Hey, I don’t have any problem with you posting videos of N. T. Wright. 🙂 In my experience, the only people who don’t like him are Neo-Calvinists. All the other Christian Biblical scholars seem to be fine with him, and if forced to choose between trusting Christian Biblical scholars and trusting megachurch pastors, guess who I’ll pick.
In line with the Doctrine of Cilantro, my voice teacher ascribes to the Doctrine of Arugula. Last week she described the taste of arugula to me as “like licking a skunk” and cannot stand to have even a tiny shred of it in her food. But arugula walnut pesto is my favorite pesto, so I must now excommunicate her from the Church of Spices. So sad.
😉
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Gary W said: “I do not believe I have ever heard a sermon preached on the next verse: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10 ESV)”
Oh, I have. More than once. I think it’s one of the underpinnings of Federal Vision, isn’t it? (Or at least, one of the verses they point to, in their teaching on the role of works in, what is it, not salvation. Justification? Sanctification? I’m a little rusty on the terminology, having been reading primarily in the Gospels the last six months.)
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I have heard that for a small percentage of people (3% maybe? I forget), cilantro is perceived to taste like soap, rather than whatever it is cilantro is supposed to taste like. (Everyone in my immediate family is in that small percentage. I do not cook with cilantro. I substitute parsley in some recipes that need a little green oomph, or simply leave it out where I can get away with it — salsa, guacamole, that sort of thing.)
Worse, it lingers on the taste buds, making everything you eat with it/afterward taste like soap for some time after the initial exposure.
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Mom of two said: “This idea that if you don’t completely agree with someone’s “doctrine” then you shouldn’t listen to anything they say is ridiculous”
Normally, I’d agree with you. However, because of my lack of discernment and need to learn better to “chew the meat and spit out the bones” I am trying to be very careful at present. Case in point: I threw all of my Vision Forum and Doug Wilson materials in the recycling (for books) and garbage (for CDs) some months ago as we were finally breaking free of patriarchy. I didn’t want them to accidentally fall into the hands of anyone else. There may have been some good stuff in there — I imagine there must have been, somewhere, to draw me in, in the first place — but I swallowed it pretty much whole, sort of like eating arsenic-laced brownies. There’s a word-picture for you. Our family is still paying the price.
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It tastes like rust to me. I like a lot of ethnic foods. I’ve been overseas, visited a lot of great restaurants in Portland which has great diversity. One time I went to a Vietnamese place and my dinner looked so yummy. Each bite I took, there was one thing that was ruining the meal for me. My tongue had to do some amazing maneuvering, but I found the culprit and it was identified. What a shame so many meals are ruined by this evil weed 😉
I am keeping a tally of who is on my side of this debate. Just so you know. haha
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(What I meant to say, above, is that I’m still reading widely, still chewing a lot of food for thought, but choosing to swallow very little at present. And watching, to my sorrow, our teens walk further and further from the Bible day by day. And I have no words for them, as I’m struggling myself.)
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refugee – – You are in a difficult place. Being honest and transparent I think is so important. Humility and grace will also go a long way. I hope they see people who really model Christ because what they likely experienced was not Christ, but man-made religion. I’m so sorry!
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Thank you, JA. I am in tears again, but they are partly grateful tears for understanding hearts where I’m used to hearing rebuke. Thank you for offering this safe place to think and ponder and hope for healing.
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refugee – – Have you shown your adult children some stories written by peers who have gone through the same thing?
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JA, they are very familiar with HA. I think we discovered that website about the same time, or I might have introduced them to it — it’s been a couple years so I don’t remember clearly. I just introduced one of them to Scarlet Letters Blog recently, because I’ve found Hester’s analysis helpful in thinking through VF teachings with a critical rather than undiscriminating mindset. She has a way of pinpointing things that I either missed or dismissed (as a result of the “taint” of feminism I left behind to grow closer to God, huh, that worked *so* well… /sarcasm). One of them is a wordsmith, a thinker, a writer; the others are “doers” and more interested in talking with others than reading. They also have friends — a loosely associated group of disaffected youth — to discuss these matters with — young people who have been cast off from various calvinist churches in the area, or who have walked away. Many of these were homeschooled. “Best of both worlds”… in a sad sort of way. Though some of them did actually get a superior education to what I experienced in school, myself, years ago, IMO. (A small percentage. Not sure whether to count our own kids among that number, but I did my best over the years, and continue to seek out mentors to encourage those or ours still “in school” as far as age goes, to explore their strengths and areas of interest.)
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refugee – I did the same thing as you a while back and purged our bookshelves of the garbage I had managed to collect over our homeschooling years (Doug Wilson, Michael Pearl, Vision Forum). Thankfully it was only me who read this stuff and not my husband so we never got into it much. But I felt lost and confused after believing this stuff for so long and then having my eyes opened to how bad it really was. I still am not always sure what to think or what to believe. I know there are certain “leaders” I never want to hear from again. I try to take everything I read with a grain of salt and test it against what I read for myself in the Bible – not what some “leader” tells me I should think. If I don’t understand or am confused about something I set it aside. I try to just let God show me what He wants me to learn (or unlearn).
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But let me make this perfectly clear. If John Piper or C.J. Mahaney or even Mark Driscoll were to tweet something like:
“Cilantro should never be part of a cuisine, it should be identified as chief among weeds,” I will be the first person to stand behind that tweet and retweet it – maybe even a few times, and y’all are just going to have to deal with that. 🙂
Whoops, I guess I’m about to get moderated too! If I’m making my own salsa, I’ve got to put some cilantro in there. I’m also a big fan if Indian cuisine.
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I have tallied your vote, NJ.
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The Doctrine of CILANTRO is indeed quite distasteful, and just a little of can overwhelm a person’s church experiences:
Centrality of the pastor
Intolerance of dissent
Legalism before love
Abusive authoritarianism
Neo-Calvinism’s superiority
Totalitarian elders
Retaliation against critics
Oppression of women
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First things first: yes to cilantro.
I think you make a good point about talking to people instead of simply assuming they belong in a particular box. Taking N.T. Wright as an example, I spent a year in Scotland at St. Andrews (this was the year before Wright became a professor there, so I didn’t get to meet him). I had previously heard him discussed as a somewhat controversial and sort of liberal theologian. In Scotland, he was perceived as almost shockingly conservative. This is partly due to the different church spectrum in Great Britain, but partly because people have read different writings. I most frequently found Wright brought up as a defender of the resurrection–both Christ’s and our future resurrection–over there. In America, most people seem to know him as “that guy trying to re-interpret Paul.” Unfortunately, I still don’t know enough about him to have a solid fix on his reliability. I should probably read more of his work sometime.
I’m also still trying to figure out where the line is between “person I sometimes disagree with, but who is still worth listening to,” and “false teacher whose truths are merely sugar coating for the lies.” 2 Peter chapter 2 has been helpful to me in that regard; Peter says little about the doctrines of false teachers, and much about their attitudes, desires, and way of life.
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As implied in a post or two above, there may be a genetic component to the dislike of cilantro (at least the perception of its taste).
http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/19/4081769/hate-cilantro-it-may-be-your-genes.html
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Oh yes, I haven’t voted on the cilantro controversy…
Since I have no idea what it is, I’ll have to vote neutral. Is that an option?
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Rfmr, it’s most likely the green parsley looking weed served at local Mexican food restaurants. Note the word, weed. I probably have never been so opinionated on my blog before this topic, well except for abuse. Lol.
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JA, Not sure where I would fall in your Cilantro categories. While the taste does not bother me I am allergic to it. Not “get out the epi pen” allergic but uncomfortable enough to make it not worth it.
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Ben, I have listened to Wright enough to hear him mention all those labels at some point. I get the impression he kind of likes not fitting in. :o) Just my impression.
Perhaps he comes at it from a totally different perspective: Understanding the NT from a historical perspective.
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First, even your unfocused photo of the cilantro was on a par with Weekly World News journalism (sort of like photoshopping cellulite onto a celebrity).You owe this glorious herb a retraction.
Second, your quote: “I think there are people who because they go to a Reformed church, label themselves as Calvinists, but may not be too clear on what that means” sums up my experience exactly! Even though I attended an “independent, non-denominational” church, and became a member believing such, we were gradually spoon-fed and then led down the path of the “doctrines of grace” and TULIP, but it was all so surreptitious and packaged so lovingly, that I thought what’s the big deal? It seemed theologically ok. It’s only when you follow the seeds of TULIP to their final fruits (unconditional election means God created creatures in his image to have their flesh burned and eaten by maggots eternally, meticulous sovereignty means God controls Satan (see John MacArthurs’s study notes) so therefore the preparing of infants for the sex trade is traceable to a “holy God” who owes us no explanation, and total depravity means children preyed upon by predators deserve far worse (hell), so they little to complain about. Sickening bilge.
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but… it’s… the… BIBLICAL… herb?
http://www.jpost.com/Arts-and-Culture/Cilantro-the-biblical-herb
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AnotherTom’s Doctrine of CILANTRO acrostic has been copied for permanent inclusion in my Evernote database. Thanks Tom!
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jkpvarin,
Let me set the record straight regarding “my unfocused photo.” Are you serious? Do you think I’d actually take a picture of that wretched plant with my iPhone or camera? Oh.my.word.
and this bit: (sort of like photoshopping cellulite onto a celebrity).You owe this glorious herb a retraction.
I need a shower to rid myself of such a thought.
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Not only are you tallied, Randy, and most likely moderated, but I’m thinking of a permanent ban for you. Biblical? ACKKKKK!!
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“Even though I attended an “independent, non-denominational” church, and became a member believing such, we were gradually spoon-fed and then led down the path of the “doctrines of grace” and TULIP, but it was all so surreptitious and packaged so lovingly, that I thought what’s the big deal?”
This has gone on all over my city. It can take years for folks to figure out the “bad news”. Read chapter 4 of Quiet Revolution (free at founders.org) to see why it is done like this.
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This ^^^ is exactly what I’m talking about when we get into debates. We assume that someone knows what they are talking about and they may not. I think sometimes we can tend to go in with weapons drawn and a better approach would be to first dialogue, before assuming, even if someone is using all the right lingo. We may be surprised.
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Julie Anne is going to moderate me & make me sleep in a space shuttle because I grow my own cilantro, & make a mean guacamole. 😉 –Calvinist Janeway.
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Sorry Julie Anne but love, love it (cilantro, that is). I can have it loaded on top of some chicken tortilla soup with avocados! Yummy….
I love your post JA! Something I just thought of today was continuing my work (in sanctification) to listen more and not jumping to conclusions. Patience, self control, and loving kindness – are they not the fruits of the spirit?
Gary W- so agree with “working out our salvation” part; of course, not to earn salvation, but in the fact of this is what we are to do if we love Jesus. The Bible is chocked full of the “doing part”- just read James. We need to be more purposeful and conscientious about His commandments AND it is all about love!
Of course our journeys are all different and the timing of when we learn His principles are different; each person must decide and choose to obey on his or her own. This is the freedom that Christ gives us is to work freely and without fear in His Kingdom. Thank goodness for that! Too many poke their fingers in everyone else’s life without checking out their own issues. And the issues (not serious ones like abuse, authoritarianism, or hurtful belief systems, such as cults) I am talking about are little minor things like whether or not you said something somebody did not quite like and making a mountain out of it; or someone drinks wine and you don’t approve, etc. ……( you know the list goes on). So petty and personally I don’t have time for it.
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This from the article to which Randy links: “And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed.”
Whoa! Coriander/cilantro tastes like manna! Well, I guess now, at least, we can begin to put 2 and 2 together and begin to understand why the un-elect were clamoring for quail.
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We’re separating the sheep from the goats today on SSB.
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There appears to be an actual “I hate cilantro” community. So you’re not alone, JA. (Personally, we adore the stuff, can we have yours?)
Good article. I’m now often hesitant to recommend writings by anyone because I may not endorse *everything* such person says or believes. And people get so worked up…
Here’s your new group of friends:
http://ihatecilantro.com/stories.php?page=1
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Random (Former) Methodist Reader,
You could sample the compatibility of cilantro with your palate by purchasing some at the grocery store. It’s found in the same place as parsley, comes fresh, and probably costs around $1.00 per bunch. If you are amongst the compatible/elect, there may be no better way to test the wonders of this manna-herb than by going to Chipotle, ordering a Burrito Bowl, and asking them to heap on extra cilantro. Don’t forget the pico de gallo, Roasted chili-corn salsa and sour cream!
AAAgghhh! Now I’m doing the same thing to Julie Anne I absolutely detest when others do it–i.e. making a big point of advocating something they know she strongly disapproves.
JA, if you absolutely MUST consign me to the SSB Doghouse, please please make me eligible for early parole. Grant that I will be consigned to more of a Purgatory sort of state than to a place of eternal conscious torment. I feel like I’ve already slipped into a limbo where I am no longer in the paradise of your good graces, nor yet condemned to the inferno of your righteous wrath.
And yet, and yet, I will plead the excuse that in this matter I am from birth in a state of total depravity.
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Julie Anne (SEPTEMBER 11, 2014 @ 2:43 PM) said:
We’re separating the sheep from the goats today on SSB.
I think this goat has just been told he is being separated from the sheep. He does not appreciate people ASSUMING he likes cilantro and soundly rejects the LABEL of cilantro lover. 🙂
(Disclaimer: I don’t know what the man is saying to this goat. Apologies if it is something bad.)
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In anything other than guacamole, very good pico de gallo, or tortila chicken soup, I think that cilantro tastes like soap.
People are complex, dynamic creatures of wonder who grow and change. My ultimate goal is to be a heck of a lot less heretical when I leave this life than when I embarked upon it as a young, zealous kid. And any one example of any one person in a category is never a perfect box fit anyway. We are all unique.
In all of this boxing business, we end up forgetting to love our enemies, to bless those who curse us, and to pray for those who despitefully use us. Do we really want to stay in a box if God is working in us to transform us? The Word says that we are being brought together into the knowledge of the Truth. If that’s the case, I don’t want to be statically labeled beyond that of a grateful sinner, saved by grace and due to absolutely no merit of my own.
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‘“Cilantro should never be part of a cuisine, it should be identified as chief among weeds,” I will be the first person to stand behind that tweet and retweet it – maybe even a few times, and y’all are just going to have to deal with that. :)’
You crack me up. I recently bought a pair of shoes on sale called “Cilantro.” The fact that they are somewhat uncomfortable notwithstanding, I think of you every time I wear them.
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I wasn’t even introduced to cilantro until I was an adult. In my parents’ large garden, I can remember harvesting fresh chives, dill, basil, sage, and thyme. The only thing I didn’t like about the dill was my mom using it to pickle her own cucumbers, which would make our small house stink to high heaven.
Then there was the mint. When dried, the leaves make a great cup of tea. Spearmint is still my favorite, although I’ll take peppermint as well.
I guess my point is that I like a whole lot more than just cilantro, and I tend to cook with other herbs more often. (Did that get me a few years out of cilantro purgatory?)
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Haha. Cilantro shoes. You must send me a picture, btdt.
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Kay, the goat in the video cracks me up. That’s exactly what I think about cilantro.
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Julie Anne wrote:
“Sometimes it’s fun to debate and challenge each other, but in the end, we encourage each other towards Christ. Man, it’s great to have a friend like that.”
A good lesson for us all Julie Anne. Would that we all could unite on our shared and common humanity rather than divide over stuff that doesn’t mean doodlely-squat in the larger scheme of things.
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I’m neutral on cilantro. I love a good pico de gallo but am allergic to avocados so guacamole is out. Hubs and I just don’t buy it or intentionally use it.
As far as labels go, I hate them. Too often they are used to say “You are not like me, therefore you are inferior”. I know I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: the most dangerous and boring place to be is in a room full of people who think and believe just like me. I much prefer to learn from people who have a different perspective.
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Jullie Anne I wanted to say thank you for this board, you, Wartburg watch and PP along with CCabuse have been some real anchors in the storm. I had a few wake up calls the last month, I have a type of carpal tunnel syndrome and steroids and about a month ago my hand stopped working. I could move it but it was like it was on fire. I took some time off and it got better. About a week ago I lost the sight in my right eye do to a very aggressive infection. Almost lost my eye all together. My sight went from 20/30 corrected to 20/400 in about an hour. It set me a bit back. I dont say this for effect but I really try very hard not to let such things bother me and when they do I apologize profusely for being a human being and a pathetic coward.
I learned that at church, or at least it was reinforced with a deep divine passion. But the blogs listed above were an anchor for me. I did not post much but I saw, when I was able, the many posts here and was encouraged. Want to hear something funny, the thing that scared me, no utterly terrified me the most almost to inaction was that I might, even for a second, become a burden on another person. The evangelical religion or at least my, I will admit, somewhat twisted view of it, is one never does that outside of apologetic reasons ever needs, one overcomes, deals with it and moves on. Like a robot. It is a major mind trip there is another phrase.
I appreciate this blog because you like the other people are real people, with real problems and you dont hat dance around them. So thank you. Also Thank God for His Grace to me. I know what I have coming and it is not His grace.
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Brian, I’m sorry for your trials; I’m even more sorry for the emotional anguish they have entailed. I shared your fear of becoming a burden to my “church” even though I was extremely active in meeting needs within it. I couldn’t afford to support the poor in my community because of my hefty tithe and the cost of investing within this local church. After I was excommunicated (for opposing the elders’ authority to rule badly), I found myself (a) alone and isolated, (b) a social pariah, (c) believing the elders’ declaration that I disgraced the name and honor of Jesus Christ. What time, perspective, these blogs, and the holy spirit did was to lead me into reality and the real kingdom. No longer having a place to tithe, I had money to help feed the poor in my community, I became more connected to our local shelter and to its inhabitants, I realized I was free to approach the homeless on the street, and i didn’t have marching orders to “evangelize” them anymore; I could just connect with them and love them. I left my teaching job and am now training to become an outreach worker to the homeless, attempting to identify those with mental illness and connecting them to services that will facilitate their reentry into whole, safe, and productive lives. This is in contrast to the stance of my prior church, a biblical counseling institution which simply mandated more praying and bible reading to overcome the sin of mental illness. And which, by the way, never gave a penny to the poor in our midst.
Brian, welcome to the kingdom, near to the heart of Christ. I (and many others) would consider it a privilege to come alongside you and share in, and help with, your trials. You are loved (even if from a distance) and totally worthy of all the benefits of family.
Peace to you, brother.
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Brian,
I’m so glad you checked in and thanks for your kind words. You’ve been through a lot even before this last month’s medical trials. How are you doing now with your vision? Did the carpal tunnel issue resolve? Praying for you, brother.
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jkpvarin, thank you for typing out your experience. You give me hope for the future. Our family-integrated church was so isolated and isolating. I fear we were “so heavenly minded” that we were “no earthly good” there.
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Refugee – I like that expression,”. .. we were so heavenly minded that we were no earthly good there”.
People need reminders like that, to reinforce the idea that it’s all about the ” here and now “, as opposed to the ” hereafter “. If more people followed this maxim, we’d all be much better off, in my opinion.
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Forgive me, I am an outsider (i.e., not a Christian), but I have an honest question: Why is there so much in-fighting among Christians? Are there “good” Christians and “bad” Christians? “Correct” Christians and “wrong” Christians? “Better” Christians and “worse” Christians? I wonder what Jesus would say to all the arguments among “his” people. Those of us with no religious affiliation tend to evaluate what rings true or doesn’t ring true for us, to think critically, and to move on from there as individuals who are responsible for our own beliefs only and don’t have to answer to or justify our beliefs (or lack thereof) to anyone but ourselves. I wonder if the reason that there’s so much in-fighting among Christians has to do with a desire or need to be CORRECT, thereby emphasizing others’ “flawed” thinking. I get (but don’t like) that Christians often do this to non-Christians, but I’m surprised to see it happening among themselves. Civil war is a dangerous thing.
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Great question, Carol. Looking forward to responses.
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I think that there are a lot of people who cannot feel good about themselves unless they can feel superior to another group of people. This attitude is behind racism, sexism, and classicism. But religion trumps all of that because it goes beyond just feeling more intelligent, more attractive, and more deserving. In religion you can decide that only you and your select group of comrades know God’s truth. And not only are you right and literally billions of other people are wrong but they are going to a place of eternal torment while God has a place for you in Heaven.
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Carol,
Thank you for your questions. Probably books could be written in response to what you ask. Maybe they have already been written. If so, I suspect they have resulted in more infighting. Here are some possibilities that come to my mind:
1. Not everybody who claims to be Christian is really Christian. Perhaps the large majority of these people believe they are Christians, but are deceived.
2. Not everything that claims to be Christian is really Christian. My own belief is that very little of organized Christianity is actually Christian.
3. Individuals and organizations alike can get caught up in building their own reputations, influence and so on. When the people of Babel did this, it was said that they had set out to build a city and a name and a tower for themselves.
4. The pursuit of right thinking has has replaced the pursuit of right relationships, including right relationship with Jesus Himself.
5. We attempt to organize our relationships on the basis of power and authority rather than on the basis of love. I would go so far as to say that any church or religious organization that organizes the fellowship of its members on the basis of constitutions, by-laws, covenants and so on has abandoned the way of love.
6. We are apt to be distracted and diverted. That is, we are prone to have our eyes on everyone and everything except Jesus.
7. We have fallen into the trap of thinking that having faith in Jesus only means that we believe He exists. We forget that faith without works is dead, that faith involves faithfulness.
8. Related to the previous point, we forget (or choose to ignore) that we are commanded to love God, our neighbors and one another. Therefore, we thwart the means by which Jesus said that it would be known that we are His disciples, which is that we would love one another.
I do contend that not all conflict is to be avoided. We are called to pursue righteousness and justice. I believe it is good and proper to push back at those who claim to follow Jesus, but who are actually predators seeking only their own perceived good. A wolf cannot complain when the shepherd drives him away with a big stick, even if the wolf is wearing sheep’s clothing. Still, it is probably true that the great majority of infighting you observe amongst Christians is not justified.
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Don’t forget that there are more and more proven cases of Opus Dei families, Corpus Christi families, Jesuits etc pretending to be Christians, but entering and devouring the naive, evangelical flock on purpose to prove that evangelicals are good for nothing. Thus, shipwrecking the faith of many. It was ALL foretold by The Lord. Many if not most Fights are caused on purpose by infiltrators to divide and conquer. It’s here.
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You’ve lost me, Jerry.
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Carol,
I think when self-professed Christians act like heavy-handed adversaries toward each other (myself included) rather than brothers and sisters in Christ, I think we lack Love.
I have to pinch myself because I question the strength of my walk as I have trouble forgiving and letting things go when I should be having the Holy Spirit.carry those burdens.
So to answer your question I think there are many self-professed Christians that fail to embrace and practice unconditional Love with each other. In some cases they may even be hateful with each other.
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JA,
Just in case you haven’t looked it up, Opus Dei means The Prelature of the Holy Cross and Opus Dei. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei. The only thing I’ve found so far for Corpus Christie families is a directory of family hotels in the city of Corpus Christi. The Jesuits you will have heard of. Personally I tend to think of myself as a Jesuit None, although to avoid confusion, I tend to prefer Yeshuite to Jesuit.
Now, I’m sure I’m not at all sure where Jerry is coming from, but I think it is very telling that we don’t hear too much on this blog about spiritual abuse in the Roman Catholic Church. There were the sex scandals, of course, but am I not correct in recalling that Boz Tchividjian credits the Catholic Church with doing more to address the issue than do the Evangelical Churches?
I’m comfortable taking on the predators that come across my path. I’m also comfortable speaking out against the depredations of organized Christianity generally. When it comes to taking on a specific faith traditions with which I have no significant contact, well, no thanks!
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JA,
Oops, I was forgetting you grew up Catholic. Probably you should be explaining to me who Opus Dei and so on are.
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Carmen, it’s an old saying. Thinking further, I think I misspoke. Our ex-church was more Dominionist than looking forward to heaven. We were going to live right, have lots of children, raise them up in the faith, and take over the world, so far as I can tell in retrospect.
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Gary, I’m familiar with some Latin words, primarily from singing. I can’t teach you anything. 🙂
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It sounds completely elitist to me, Refugee. But then, so do many of the ‘sects’ – I think that’s the point of them. (although those IN them wouldn’t be able to recognize this facet)
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I guess, one can find as much (meaning nothing officially) on Opus Dei, Chorpus Christi etc as on Illuminati, mafia or other secretive, most destructive groups. I know about it because I have a few family members in a high Catholic hierarchy. I was “in the know” before I got saved. I guess that was one of the reasons why I left and got saved. Praise The Lord.
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I have just one word for cilantro: ewwwww. 😛
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@Jerry:
And Alberto Rivera and Jack Chick.
“In the know because of connections” like Mike Warnke, except Romanism instead of Satanism?
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Jullie anne most likely I will not regain my vision in my right eye but I get to keep my eye thank God. Driving will most likely have to go in a couple of years as my other eye may suffer loss. That will be hard as it might mean I need to ask people for rides, most likely I will try to find another job to pay for taxies if I need to go around. I am glad I have a public sector job if it was private sector I would get canned right out of the gate, I am grateful for that.
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I remember when I first questioned Alberto Rivera and Jack Chick. Rivera was a tool with the whole Jesuit clap trap. I remember being rebuked when I said what this clown spewed out made no sense, along with all the other fakes out there. I give Jack a pass because he really did pass through the gates of hell in that damnable Island in the Pacific theater. All the other nutters just clamped on to for the clown car ride. I actually went to a church that considered Jack a viable source of evidence, some even supported Bob Lar$on, Gothered and other such tools. I can give Jack a pass, the others not so much.
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i find that more often than not, someone like myself, who would be labeled a complementarian 4.97 point Calvinist [But i just round up] who generally likes 95% of the people that this blog and others like it [wartburg] criticize usually get lambasted and lumped together with the worst that “my side” has to offer.
The big thing is that people attach a “necessarily” to it. As in in “you’re a comp? you must necessarily think XY and Z about this” and you’re reformed? you must necessarily believe this and that and that”.
One of the biggest battles is warring misinformation and assumptions.
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Exactly, Dustin. When I label you, you become one of “them” and it causes me to dismiss any possibility that you may not be 100% like “them.” It removes opportunities for meaningful dialogue. It removes opportunities to respectfully challenge one’s comfort zone.
Dustin, I respect you for your willingness to dialogue here and with me. It tears down the walls and we can meet together on the common ground of Jesus.
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Dustin,
Truthfully, I have to admit what gets my attention is the repetitive methodology Pulpit and Pen engages in, even when you guys raise a credible concern.
Your blog pounds away saying the same things to the same people for months, until it gets out of hand. Rather than exercise a little faith and allow the Holy Spirit to carry these burdens you guys kept going. Calling people to repent while in the act of sin yourselves.
Furthermore, because your Reformed Methodology won’t allow you to share enough of your burdens with the Holy Spirit, the Theology your blog embraces is more of a Works, Doubt, Law and Sin Centered (Catholic like) ministry rather than Christ Centered and to tell you the truth being a former Catholic myself, Catholics at least offer “hope”.
(something JD didn’t offer to Braxton)
I have had dialogue with JD about 5 months ago and he admitted that he is redundant with his congregation as he repetitively reminds his church 2 or 3 times every service of their unworthiness, a pretty narrow view of scriptures which border’s Spiritual Abuse
I suggested to JD that I’m sure that with his methodology, his Congregation will never lose sight of their unworthiness even if he proclaimed their unworthiness once a month.
You guys are better off using your blog to teach the OT and NT staying focused in the word. Stop criticizing other Preachers and don’t even use your teaching to insinuate other Preachers flaws, because they too will answer to God.
I’m not talking about when serious laws are broken that need Police intervention. I’m talking about the “unloving” gossip approach your Blog uses, to Spiritual Abuse and bring people down.
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“Truthfully, I have to admit what gets my attention is the repetitive methodology Pulpit and Pen engages in, even when you guys raise a credible concern.
Your blog pounds away saying the same things to the same people for months, until it gets out of hand. Rather than exercise a little faith and allow the Holy Spirit to carry these burdens you guys kept going. Calling people to repent while in the act of sin yourselves.
Furthermore, because your Reformed Methodology won’t allow you to share enough of your burdens with the Holy Spirit, the Theology your blog embraces is more of a Works, Doubt, Law and Sin Centered (Catholic like) ministry rather than Christ Centered and to tell you the truth being a former Catholic myself, Catholics at least offer “hope”.
(something JD didn’t offer to Braxton)
I have had dialogue with JD about 5 months ago and he admitted that he is redundant with his congregation as he repetitively reminds his church 2 or 3 times every service of their unworthiness, a pretty narrow view of scriptures which border’s Spiritual Abuse
I suggested to JD that I’m sure that with his methodology, his Congregation will never lose sight of their unworthiness even if he proclaimed their unworthiness once a month.
You guys are better off using your blog to teach the OT and NT staying focused in the word. Stop criticizing other Preachers and don’t even use your teaching to insinuate other Preachers flaws, because they too will answer to God.
I’m not talking about when serious laws are broken that need Police intervention. I’m talking about the “unloving” gossip approach your Blog uses, to Spiritual Abuse and bring people down.
”
Mark, I appreciate the corrective, but you are being pretty vague in what you are trying to say, and so it’s difficult to offer a specific word of response. Plus I’m not sure you can say to what degree I do or do not allow the Holy Spirit to work on my life or allow it to share my burdens. As someone who listens to all of Jordan’s sermons, it would be inappropriate and untrue to describe it as you have. As far as the content of the blog, we have a 5 fold focus that is narrowed and niched, which explains why similar topics come up. But again, if you want specific responses, you’ve have to offer more specific correctives.
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I’m going to do an interview on spiritual abuse in a couple of minutes. Here are the details: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=609259695861164&id=266400143480456
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Dustin,
Thank You for your thoughtful response.
Your blog went too far with Caner. (among others) When your blog does raise a credible concern, it doesn’t end. After a couple postings, your readers and the people you target your concerns toward, have a deep understanding of your views.
So instead of letting it go and wait on the Holy Spirit to remedy your hearts, your blog chooses to continue to practice a relentless and repetitive crusade that is rather heavy handed, that bring certain people (or their love ones) down rather than being more uplifting..
I think the term “Canerize the Canerization” is Un-Christian and is just a small sample of why I don’t like the Methodology and Direction of Pulpit and Pen. .
I don’t think it is possible to convince you otherwise.
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@Brian:
That was actually common for “non-denominational fellowships” in the Late Seventies. A lot of them were “The Gospel According to Jack Chick” (and/or Hal Lindsay). But the real Demon-under-every-bed and Satanic-Illuminati Conspiracy stuff really took off in the Eighties with the Satanic Panic — that was THE heyday of Rivera, Larson, Warnke, Todd, and many now forgotten.
P.S. I think I first heard about Larson in Kooks Magazine, in a writeup about Satanic Panic titled “Sell Your Soul for Rock & Roll” about the panic about Satanic and Heathen rock music. Larson was described as “Jack Chick’s anti-Rock hatchetman” as Rivera was his anti-Catholic hatchetman.
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“Exactly, Dustin. When I label you, you become one of “them” and it causes me to dismiss any possibility that you may not be 100% like “them.” It removes opportunities for meaningful dialogue. It removes opportunities to respectfully challenge one’s comfort zone. ”
I fully admit I have “labeled” Dustin based upon reading his comments on another blog for the last several years and his part in the Pulpit and Pen downgrade movement with JD Hall and others.
What I am getting from his dialogue here, is that Dustin is projecting two different methods/views OR this is more about using some discernment blogs for PR purposes due to the twitter exchange with Braxton and the subsequent horrible PR for the P&P guys.
But what would be the point of discussing it since I would have to go back for the last several years and paste his comments and link to P&P articles, etc? Who wants to do that?
Call me cynical but seen it too many times. Will the real Dustin please stand up. (sigh)
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Lydia – It’s important to note that Pulpit and Pen has a group of contributors – I already know for a fact that he was not in agreement with JD Hall’s tweeting involvement with Braxton (that came from Pulpit and Pen Twitter account). So we need to be very careful about what is from Dustin himself and not connect it with Pulpit and Pen he didn’t write it.
Another thing – – we can look on history for people, but we are always changing, too. I’ve had people tell me they’ve seen me change since I began blogging. It’s important to talk in the here and now and get it directly from someone rather than rely on quotes which may be taken out of context and full understanding. Shouldn’t we go the extra mile to be sure of mutual understanding? Isn’t that the right thing to do?
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JA, As I said, been reading Dustin’s comments for several years. If he has “changed” then why not say so? I did. I changed some of my doctrinal and positional stances from early days of blogging and freely admit it– publicly.
Sure, go the extra mile as is your right…. but never forget the wolves love to use your version of Christianity against you and to promote themselves which in the end only victimizes people all over again. My motto is trust but verify. I don’t see any verification of repudiating what he has been so heavily involved with. Verification takes time. It is not instant as there has been a pattern of behavior for several years.
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Philippians 2:3-4 (NKJV)
3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
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Lydia,
I hear what you are saying, but how can we create a climate here that allows others to come to their conclusions?
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Thank you for that, Darrell.
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“I hear what you are saying, but how can we create a climate here that allows others to come to their conclusions? ”
A monumental task. I am only speaking for myself and I hope people always realize that. But I have seen what I sense is a sort of protection “for” Dustin from you that makes others feel like they have to walk on eggshells to disagree with him so they give up and go away. And most here have probably not been reading his comments in other venues for the last 2 years nor have they been reading Pulpit and Pen and understand their purpose.
If Dustin is totally honest he will admit here he does not think most of us are really saved. And I base that on what I know about what P&P expouses (before the scandal as they might have done some deleting) and Dustin’s comments on other blogs. They project a stance that only they have truth and they are fighting what they see as a “downgrade” in most of Christendom that is not like them. Not sure where you will find “understanding and unity” within that paradigm.
(Dustin, no I won’t be copying and pasting anything to back up what I said above. Played that game too many times over the years. Not going there. It is all my opinion and others have to do their own homework)
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Lydia, (and Dustin)
If you were to read my dialogue with Dustin @ 8:41 and 10:46, I think I have been pretty frank of what I think of Pulpit and Pen. I avoid being combative because I’m trying to paint a picture of what I have witnessed of their relentless Crusades that have destroyed a life.
I did forgot to mention to him, that he should go back into PP’s archives and count how many times they did a write on the Caner’s and others. If it is more than 2 or 3 times in my view it would be excessive and I don’t think he see’s it that way.
Most of the Reformed spend more time embracing, a Law and Sin Centered Ministry rather than Christ Centered and so I would agree that by appearance they will doubt anybody’s salvation, including their own.
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I don’t think this will ever end…
http://pulpitandpen.org/2014/09/12/tragedy-and-a-human-shield-the-saga-of-ergun-caner/
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@HUG – judging from your attitude towards what I said…
There is one of two scenarios possible here. You are woefully unaware of what you are trying to talk/laugh about, or you are one of the ones I presented as destructive culprits. We should not ignore or laugh at something we know nothing about. A proper thing would be to try to figure out before taking a stand. That’s if we call ourselves intelligent beings.
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Kay:
It appears that Dustin is the author of the new piece at the Pulpit and Pen. You are right it will never end.
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Hi Mark. I appreciate that you feel that after a few mentions, things should be dropped, but I don’t feel the same way. A good example of this is with Driscoll and the mess that has been revealed. Someone like Throckmorton didn’t let things be and wait for the spirit to deal with Driscoll, and while I understand that this may be your preferred method, it is not mine.
I’m not a huge fan of the term canerize the canerization, but at the same time it is based on something that we haven’t really seen, which is a christian leader/pastor going back and asking churches to remove and redact all his sermons, and not because he no longer agrees with the theology he once espoused. It’s not the most ideal description, but nor am I against it. But perhaps you’re right that it may be time to drop that. I don’t personally recall ever using it, though I may bring it up to some of the other contributors and get their thoughts on it.
Though Mark, as far as letting this go, speaking of myself because I am the one who wrote what I did, do you understand why I did so, and what events have preceded this being written?
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Lydia, which blog were you following me on in the combox? In any case, without specifics I’m afraid I’m not able to answer anything directly. If you want to spend the time perhaps to find just one thing I said that troubles you or that you think it was sinful of me to post, and would like me to address it, perhaps we could start there?
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