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Alan Maricle aka @Rhology defends and imitates J.D. Hall’s (aka @pulpitandpen) bad behavior on Twitter.
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Admin note: I’m going to take the easy route here and jump into a situation to discuss it without giving a lot of background. However, if you want to know the background of this story, please visit Wartburg Watch blog and read Dee’s excellent article, JD Hall and Friends: “Theological Thuggery” and Braxton Caner’s Suicide.
Ok, the brief background to this story is concerning J.D. Hall, the lead pastor at Fellowship Baptist Church in Sidney, Montana. He maintains a blog, does frequent podcasts, and has an online presence on Twitter as @PulpitandPen. J.D. Hall has been going after Ergun Caner on Twitter for quite some time. It was when he started tweeting Caner’s 15-yr old son, Braxton, that it crossed the line for me. I saw the behavior as highly inappropriate.
Late in July, Braxton Caner committed suicide. The blogosphere and those who have been following this story on Twitter have been responding to this situation, calling Hall’s twitter behavior as bullying and saying that the tweets could have contributed to his suicide. There has been media outrage about this. And rightly so.
Last night, I woke up in the middle of the night and shouldn’t have looked at my phone, but when I did, I saw that @Rhology had responded to a tweet of mine. Earlier in the day, I had responded to this.
Well, now at nearly 3AM my time, he was engaging me. I responded a few times and realized it was futile. You can find that conversation here on a Storify I created:
@Rhology, a #pulpiteers, and defender of J.D. Hall shows us what his kind of Christian love looks like
This is a good sampling of what @Rhology is like and how he interacts with people on Twitter.
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Who is @Rhology?
I found his name listed at J.D. Hall’s blog site, Pulpit and Pen:
Alan Maricle is an abolitionist living in Oklahoma, and blogs at Abolish Human Abortion and Rhoblogy.
A quick Google search showed that he is an abortion protestor and has been named in the news. In that article he is shown protesting outside a high school. I’ve never heard of abortion protestors outside of high schools. In this article, he is protesting at Satanic Exorcism Ritual at Oklahoma City’s Civic Center.
But it is his online dialogue, how he debates, and who he defends which disturb me the most.
It’s important to note that J.D. Hall has a group of friends, called #pulpiteers (taken from Hall’s Twitter name and blog name, @pulpitand pen and Pulpit and Pen, respectively) whom he refers to on his tweets. I’ll explain.
Twitter 101
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For those new or unfamiliar with Twitter, let me explain a bit because it’s important to understand how this social media is being used by J.D. Hall and his group.
On Twitter, everybody has their own “handle.” Mine is @DefendtheSheep. The @ sign identifies a Twitter user. There are also # – hashtags.
A while back, I organized a group and the social media guru in the group decided to use the hashtag #whowouldJesusSue (this was to bring social media attention to Alex Grenier’s lawsuit by his pastor and father, Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia). People tweeting about this story included the hashtag #whowouldJesusSue. We’ve seen conferences identified by hashtags. Let’s say Southern Baptist Conference wants to coordinate a Twitter hashtag for an upcoming conference. They might announce #SBC2014 as the hashtag. The cool feature about hashtags is you can click on the hashtag because it is a hyperlink and see all other tweets that include the specific hashtag. When I clicked on #whowouldJesusSue hashtag, I could see all of the tweets and people involved in helping this cause. I was able to find other like-minded individuals who were supportive of the cause and connect with them. It’s a very handy feature on Twitter.
So, J.D. Hall, has essentially created a group of his buddies that he refers to as #pulpiteers. He includes the hashtag in his tweets and when his friends tweet, they also include it. They can quickly click on the hashtag to see what their group is tweeting about.
Clicking on this #pulpiteers link, you will see all of the tweets that have the hashtag #pulpiteers. Right now, there is a loud response to J.D. Hall and the #pulpiteer’s behavior and so people who are upset at them are also using the hashtag. If you scroll down, you will see what it used to be like with primarily JD Hall and his buddies using the hashtag.
#pulpiteers Gang Mentality
When you look at those who identify with the #pulpiteers hash tag, they are essentially saying, “I am one of them,” “I am choosing to wear the label,” and “I align myself with JD Hall and his message.”
I was thinking about this. Isn’t this what we see with teenage gangs who wear certain clothing, i.e., certain colored bandana, a certain kind of hat, etc? I hate to say it, but it looks obvious to me that this group is functioning as a gang would. They wear their label proudly and behave just like a street gang, but instead of using real weapons, they use God and scripture as a weapon.
J.D. Hall is the gang leader and the #pulpiteers will fight to the figural death defending their hero leader or also one another. They use Christianese talk, quote Scripture, talk about love, but their behavior completely discounts everything they say. So many people are picking up on it and in fact, a UK blog site, the freethinker – which looks to be an atheist blog site, was the first to cover the story connecting J.D. Hall with the suicide of Braxton Caner, The suicide of a preacher’s kid.
The following Twitter conversation is a prime example of a pulpiteer defending another pulpiteer. Dustin Germain is part of that group. He mans J.D. Hall’s website and is the one who made the choice to pull down the article J.D. Hall posted after the online dialogue. (In the post, Hall defended himself, and later added some sort of apology, but not really an apology as far as I’m concerned. The article can be found in Google’s cache.) Anyway, here is an example of Dustin Germain aka @paperhymn coming to the defense of Alan Maricle aka @Rhology who is coming to the defense of J.D. Hall. His comment is at the bottom of the tweet thread.
These gangsters are deluded. They have made up their own religion where love means gang-like badgering and bullying and calling people to repent. This is not the 1 Corinthians 13 love I see in the Bible. This is not kindness that brings people to repentance.
Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? Romans 2:4
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Updated to add this image about #pulpiteers. Special thanks to Kay who provided the info:
Related link: Michael Newnham of Phoenix Preacher, The Rise and Fall of J.D. Hall
Spiritual Sounding Board 
“Wade has posted a couple times on TWW and on his blog post. I am thinking he is trying to pave the way, open a door, should people need to seriously talk, do some soul searching and reconsider what has taken place. He seems to be aware of all of the poison and as he says “spiritual abuse” that has and is taking place. It might not be JD Hall or his pulpiteers that contact him, but people out there who have been caught up with these guys and need someone to talk to. They might contact Wade. I hope so.”
Is that what you got out of it? Have you read him long?
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“To me this is not a Calvinist/Arminian issue. Just my opinion.”
The Catalyst for going after Caner started in 2006 over Cal/Non Cal debates. I am not saying none of it justified but simply pointing out that war was declared back then covertly. You can read the comments on the Founders blog. JD Hall simply took up the torch with new methods.
And I do not think Caner is Arminian. I know I am not. That is the way Calvinists like to frame the issue because Arminian is Calvin-lite.
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Cindy shared this with me and I thought you guys might enjoy it as a resource on forgiveness.
http://www.nacr.org/wordpress/160/the-f-word-forgiveness-and-its-imitations
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“Despite what you might think, I think Wade may have done the cause against Hall a favor here. The comments by Hall’s supporters on Wade’s blog are so absurd and “out there” that they provide evidence that their group will go to any length to further their causes”
I agree and as usual think we will see some backtracking and “I do not communicate well” as this goes on.
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A couple of things…
1. Chris Rosebrough is a Lutheran (like myself), but he is a friend of many Calvinists.
2. Wade Burleson is a good guy. I don’t see why it would be necessary to question his motives. Who is arguing that Hall is responsible for the young man’s suicide? TWW hasn’t made that claim. And only the authorities can determine if someone is responsible. If they do, we’ll hear about it if and when they release such information to the press.
Also, Wade doesn’t self-identify as a Calvinist, although he is theologically in agreement with the famous “five points” of the TULIP. Wade has defended Calvinists, Charismatics, and women in ministry in the SBC (none of these are my positions, so I can say I’m in a position of objectivity here). Wade’s positions have drawn him the ire of some in the SBC, including Paige Patterson and Peter Lumpkins. Peter Lumpkins said in a comment at TWW a while back that he considers Wade Burleson an “opponent,” although I’m sure Burleson wouldn’t describe Lumpkins as such. If you search “Burleson” at Lumpkins’ blog, you’ll pull up a lot of posts.
(Yes, I’ve spent a lot of time online.)v v
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Julie Anne said: “Ok, that is a good distinction, Kay. It is spiritual abusers who protect their own and in this case, it is spiritually abusive Calvinists.”
YES! and I would add that focusing on the labels will sometimes detract from the abuse and hinder the discussion because of the bias we bring to the table with our own beliefs. You might have multiple contributors commenting on the same blog post who disagree on the meaning of certain passages in Scripture, but they can come together to educate and raise awareness regarding spiritual abuse.
These guys seeking to play the Holy Spirit in the lives of EVERYONE, have no biblical authority to do so. I think you would get agreement from many people across a wide spectrum on this point.
My relationship with Christ is a personal one. Scripture tells me and I have no doubt, I have the Holy Spirit working in me. I pray the Spirit will quicken my thoughts and actions to recognize truth or error when I hear men/women speak.
“until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming” Eph 4:13-14 NASB
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Lydia and Nicholas – good information.
I realize and I remember the days of the Caner/White debates. There are SO MANY variations when it comes to the labels Calvinists and Arminians.
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Nic,
I am on record as being very much against what Wade has taught concerning victims of abuse and their abusers. He leans toward antinomianism which to me is cheap grace which often ends up abusing the abused over and over.
He is real nice but often speaks out of both sides of mouth trying to appease both sides. He is big on telling victims their suffering is good and accepting the abusers “sorry”. Been reading him since 2006 or 7 and it takes time to realize what he is really teaching in many cases. For some, his focus on egalitarian and other issues keeps them from seeing the bigger picture. This last post ought to make it more clear to more people. JD did not bully Braxton and has nothing to do with the suicide. This begs the question of whether Wade agrees with JD’s ministry of calling out or not. We can surmise from the previous post he does not. So why the protection of JD Hall’s long term behavior now?
See, I find him confusing and contradictory. But very nice.
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Kay,
My spiritual abuse came from Non Calvinists. Just wanted to make that distinction. It was the seeker movement which hides most of it’s problems/hierarchy behind stages and words like “Servant leader”. They have to hide theirs to make it work. But it is no less deadly to the soul. Just hidden better. JD would not last there as he is too obvious. Deception works better. It is also big on cult of personality.
The Calvinist resurgence actually lends itself to spiritual abuse as we can see from studying the Institutes. Calvin’s Geneva and the history of Calvinism since then. The determinist god is a tyrant and the author of evil. No way around it no matter what fancy words or pseudo intellectualism they use to make the case.
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What is the common thread for these abusers who work within their various organizations be it Calvinists, Arminians, Seeker movement, Catholics – pick your flavor?
I have a few theories, but there must be common threads and in all cases, sadly, there are people hurt.
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They are all power-hungry misogynists with inflated egos and too much testosterone and an overwhelming degree of immaturity.
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waitingforthetrumpet2,
Though your analogy is unique and maybe in some cases have merit, I tend to think they “Lack Faith” and “Lack Understanding” of scripture by the way practice, defend and retaliate against those who don’t embrace their “Methodology”.
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Mark,
Bigger than that…they lack God. I don’t think that they are Christians at all. I think that your analysis minimizes it just a little bit. The ONE Commandment is to love thy neighbor as yourself.
Are they breaking that ONE commandment? I tend to think so. That is how you can tell who a BROTHER is.
What does 1 John say about this? What does the gospel of John say about this?
Ed
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Ed – They would say they ARE loving God. They are loving people enough to tell them the hard truth so that they will repent and be saved.
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Kay,
I tend to think most of the Abusers (but not all) lean on a Reformed or Neo-Calvinist doctrine. Calvinism exist in most of the denominations that profess the Gospel.
I grew up Catholic and I have to admit that I carried a narrow view of the world outside of the Catholic Church until I reached adulthood as I thought the Catholic faith was the true doctrine of God.
The one common thread I can identify of those that Abuse in different denominations is their strange way of using verses that refer to “defending the faith”. They will do the same with the role of husbands, wives, kids. or isolationism and shunning.
But I think much of it is still somehow innertwined with Neo-Calvinism, some Calvinist like to refer to saved Arminians as being Calvinist but they just don’t know they are Calvinist.
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Ed,
Lack of Faith and lack of Understanding of Scripture is pretty blunt. (maybe just not quite as blunt, as you would like)
I can’t quarrel about some abusers not being a Christian especially if they don’t have any identifiable love in the way they treat the people they abuse (and control) and treat others who identify their Methodology as sin (or ignoring scripture).
It was my own personal lack of understanding of scripture that made me vulnerable to Doctrinal Abuse by a Stealth Neo-Calvinist and truthfully because he purposely kept his Neo Doctrine a mystery while rebuking our church for not embracing his controlling Methodology, and because of his lengthy deception, I have questioned whether or not he is even saved, but that is between him and God
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“What is the common thread for these abusers who work within their various organizations be it Calvinists, Arminians, Seeker movement, Catholics – pick your flavor?”
Every year during the 90’s, I think it was, the WSJ did a piece around Christmas interviewing the top HR firms asking them the top motivators in the workplace. The number 1 year after year was “recognition”. This was above pay, hours, good working conditions, good boss, etc.
We can take that and apply it to the common thread, perhaps, as “seeking to be somebody”. Then add power to that. Then add in the millennials bent toward narcissism and entitlement. That is a modern common thread. A historical common thread might be a bit different as in start with power because all systems/institutions were based upon being close to the King, Elector, Landowners, etc.
Just some random thoughts.
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“Calvinism exist in most of the denominations that profess the Gospel. ”
Yes, this was a hard lesson for me. There is some variation of the determinism in Protestantism. But it goes back further perhaps to Augustine whose writings spread West.
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Julie Anne,
“Ed – They would say they ARE loving God. They are loving people enough to tell them the hard truth so that they will repent and be saved. ”
My response:
Yes, I’ve come across that one many times from people. But:
Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Acts 13:51
But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
Those verses show that if you love them, you leave them alone after they won’t hear you the first time.
In addition, remember the city that worshiped the goddess Diana? The whole city was in an uproar because Paul was there. No one wanted to hear what Paul had to say.
So…
He left. He didn’t badger anyone. He just left. JD Hall and the like refuse to dust their feet, or leave.
Ed
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Mark,
I understand what you are saying. But this is why I advocate studying the Bible on your own. Just you and God alone. THEN when you go to church and hear a sermon, be critical. Don’t believe ANYTHING that the preacher talks about…until you can verify it for yourself. But be on the critical side of it, instead of defaulting to agreeing. In my experience of studying cults, they tend to use the wording of scripture to confuse people with, and they will buy anything.
For example, one cult states that Jesus is not God, and they use a scripture that states, “God is not a man that he should lie.” So, to them, God is not a man.
The average person that doesn’t know their own Bible will agree with them. They will say that the Bible states that God is not a man. Sounds logical, right?
The Catholics didn’t want ANYONE having a Bible, because the Bible shows how free that we really are.
Calvinists and Lutherans, was birthed from Catholicism. Same, same. The leaders really want you to be ignorant of the scriptures, so that they are the “go-to guys”, etc.
We have Bibles. We need to use them on our own, having our two way conversation with God. Just you and God alone. THEN you can compare with what others say, THEN the blinders will be off when you go to church and hear a sermon. You can clearly see if what is being taught at the pulpit is right, or wrong. NEVER take his word for anything. I don’t. I am always critical of every sermon that I hear. That is my default.
Things needed:
1. College ruled paper.
2. Pen
3. Hi-liters
4. Bible (NIVr and KJV…NOT the Calvinist brand)
5. Strong’s Concordance
6. MAKE TIME
7. MOST IMPORTANT…COFFEE.
Ed
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This is quite a list.
I’ve seen experts weigh in on this, but I wonder if a more complete, more accurate profile might come from numerous people who have encountered these abusers, not with long posts, but with concise descriptors. Abusers will not be identical but possibly would exhibit several or more of these traits.
power-hungry misogynists with inflated egos
too much testosterone
overwhelming degree of immaturity
Lack Faith
Lack Understanding
retaliate against those who don’t embrace their “Methodology”
they lack God
they break The ONE Commandment is to love thy neighbor as yourself
They would say they ARE loving God. They are loving people enough to tell them
the hard truth so that they will repent and be saved.
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Kay,
Ya!!! I think our brainstorming will add more to that list, too.
Ed
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Ed.
4. Bible (NIVr and KJV…NOT the Calvinist brand)
What is the Calvinist brand?
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The Geneva or the ESV.
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Or the John MacArthur study Bible.
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chapmaned24 said: “But this is why I advocate studying the Bible on your own. Just you and God alone.”
Great advice!
Mark said: “The one common thread I can identify of those that Abuse in different denominations is their strange way of using verses that refer to “defending the faith”.”
Yes and that practice is not particular to just one flavor of Christianity. I agree that certain groups attract this type of person more than others.
Lydia said: “We can take that and apply it to the common thread, perhaps, as “seeking to be somebody”. Then add power to that. Then add in the millennials bent toward narcissism and entitlement.”
That’s what we’ve observed with too many (not only the young in all cases, and some who are ‘young’ in the faith) coming out of seminary. They are so full of book knowledge and assume they are elder/leader material because of their degree and connections. Often we’ve seen a lack of humility and some do not have the foggiest notion of what it means to be a servant to the people in their midst.
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“I’ve seen experts weigh in on this, but I wonder if a more complete, more accurate profile might come from numerous people who have encountered these abusers, not with long posts, but with concise descriptors. Abusers will not be identical but possibly would exhibit several or more of these traits.”
one of the problems with the list is that many are actually mentored into it. I saw this quite a bit. They don’t start out that way. They become some of things because they went along with a system or they were building a system.
. It is amazing how normal and even good such a thing can seem when you are in it. You start to believe certain things are done for God. Groupthink, peer pressure, etc. The system/institution/movement becomes all important. It must be saved, maintained andgrown at all costs. Even if the cost are some of the people in it who are asking too many questions. (The irony is that people pay for this)
I say this because most people in the institutions won’t recognize your list. The power hungry guy comes off humble on stage. Everyone thinks he is the most humble man they have ever met. Few really know him personally but they read his books and watch him on stage so that must be him, right?
But systems and institutions exist to maintain themselves. That is what they become about.
Brad Futurist guy talks about closed systems. Mega churches have to operate as closed systems or they would not last. Many churches are now trying to become closed systems.
Trust me on this one: There is NO SUCH THING as a HUMBLE mega church pastor. It is not possible. But he can certainly cast that image on stage and in books. Many work hard at preserving their “earlier” image before such success. And one way they do this is insulation. They are literally protected FROM the masses they teach. They are important. Their time is valuable, etc.
The internet is doing wonders on exposing some closed systems but not enough.
In contrast, JD Hall does not hide his vitriol or his method. He is proudly vitriolic, mysoginistic, hateful, cruel and Jesus is happy with this. He has been quite open about it. What should scare us are all the people who are giving him a pass on a long time pattern of evil cruel behavior that ended in very nasty inappropriate tweets to 15 year old Braxton Caner. JD Hall has been headed there for a long time.
So why the pass from so many? I will steal from a tweet:
False notion in Reformed camp is that correct doctrine trumps character issues. Not so.
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Hi Brenda,
I think it’s the ESV, and some use the NASB. I know that John MacArthur has a Bible that has HIS commentary in it.
Speaking of which, I myself do not advocate commentary of any sort. That’s just me, tho. The reason is because that is a huge influence on coming to a conclusion. Take someone else’s opinion off the table, and make your own opinion…make your own commentary first. Then if you want to read commentary, see how it compares. See what others are saying outside of commentaries. But first, write your own before your comparrison.
Most every church that is non-denomination uses the simple and easy to read NIVr. Then…as time and knowledge grows, move over to the KJV for word and phrases study that couples with the Strong’s Concordance.
Ed
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Lydia – I hear you! Good points.
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Ed,
Attend a YRR Calvinist church and flash around “Good News for Modern Man”. Hee Hee.
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Lydia,
I just went over to Amazon, and the cover looks so familiar that I went over to Wiki, and lo and behold, that version is the OLD Today’s English Version (TEV). I had that version when I was a little kid. My mom had ordered it from the ministry of that preacher Robert Schuller that had that Crystal Cathedral. Little did I know that he was reformed. But, back then, I was just a kid who didn’t know any better.
Ed
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Hi Ed,
I grew up on the KJV but also use an NIV. It’s closer to what the pastor uses at church which is possibly an ESV. I have a half dozen different translations, and even enjoy reading the message Bible once in a while. I have commentaries, but you are correct, use them last. I like to read others opinions, but don’t put too much stock in them. It has only been the last few years that I used anything but my KJV. Until today I had no idea that some translations were used by one group more than another. I was taken back the first time I heard a pastor say that the KJV wasn’t really a good version, because we don’t talk that way any longer so the thee’s and thou’s are haughty. I just can’t get with Ps 23 or John 3:16 in any other version. I suppose I’m aging and set in my ways.
Brenda
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In our home, we haven’t figured out all the particulars of, as someone termed it I think at TWW, this sickness in Christianity these days.
We are doing a fair amount of searching and thinking coupled with prayer of course. In our search for the word “authority” and terms related, we looked at various verses and first searched original languages resources, multiple translations, various online messages from pastors we still respect and numerous commentaries. So here is an example:
Matthew 16:19
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Okay – now before I show you the problematic commentary, I’ll say many commentators we found and pastors we’ve come to trust more than others in their online sermons say “the keys” refers to the Gospel.
Here is the MacArthur Study Bible:
MATTHEW—NOTE ON 16:19 the keys of the kingdom of heaven. These represent authority, and here Christ gives Peter (and by extension all other believers) authority to declare what was bound or loosed in heaven. This echoed the promise of John 20:23, where Christ gave the disciples authority to forgive or retain the sins of people. All this must be understood in the context of Matt. 18:15–17, where Christ laid out specific instructions for dealing with sin in the church (see note on 18:15). The sum of it all means that any duly constituted body of believers, acting in accord with God’s word, has the authority to declare if someone is forgiven or unforgiven. The church’s authority is not to determine these things, but to declare the judgment of heaven based on the principles of the word. When they make such judgments on the basis of God’s word, they can be sure heaven is in accord. In other words, whatever they “bind” or “loose” on earth is already “bound” or “loosed” in heaven. When the church says the unrepentant person is bound in sin, the church is saying what God says about that person. When the church acknowledges that a repentant person has been loosed from that sin, God agrees.
Crossway; John MacArthur (2010-08-10). ESV MacArthur Study Bible (Kindle Locations 104001-104011). Good News Publishers/Crossway Books. Kindle Edition
We have listened to MacArthur through the radio ministry quite a bit starting back in the 80’s. But in our recent study, we all read this and said “WHAT?” Now take that interpretation and give it to someone who fits those traits in our list and that’s a recipe for abuse.
I should make note that the commentary of the MacArthur Study Bible is the product of combined efforts of TMS profs and students and Grace Staff. That’s what I’ve been told anyway.
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Kay, YIKES.
That passage has been debated for years. Yes is a perfect one to be abused. One has to ignore everything else Jesus said.
Remember that MacArthur also taught that it is wrong for men to have long hair as he was interpreting 1 Corin 11 for us!
. I guess he did not see the part in Acts where Paul took a Nazarite vow?
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“I just went over to Amazon, and the cover looks so familiar that I went over to Wiki, and lo and behold, that version is the OLD Today’s English Version (TEV). I had that version when I was a little kid. My mom had ordered it from the ministry of that preacher Robert Schuller that had that Crystal Cathedral. Little did I know that he was reformed. But, back then, I was just a kid who didn’t know any better.”
My mom used to hand them out like candy. Robert Schuller was a “motivational speaker”. His “reformed” moniker meant little. Rick Warren modeled Saddleback on him early on.
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“Rick Warren modeled Saddleback on him early on.”
I should say sans the organ and robes. Replaced with Hawaiian shirts and rock bands.
He was more interested in how you fill a huge church. Peter Drucker and Schuller were early mentors.
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Brenda,
You will see that I quote ONLY from the KJV, but, I am not a KJV Onlyist. That’s just where I default to. I use the NIVr for the easy to read and understand. I’ve never tried the Message Bible yet, but if you’ve ever seen the Christian comedian Tim Hawkins, he jokes about the Message Bible (he’s just being funny), “What’s this? Jesus turned water into wine coolers?”
But there was a reason that I use the KJV. Serious word study. I look at it this way. The English back then was more pure. Can you imagine how Shakespeare would sound in today’s English? OK, I’m not a comedian, but how would the Bible sound in the Hip Hop version?
Today’s English is so corrupt, chopped up, etc. OK, so we don’t talk like that anymore. But, I don’t think it hurts to find out how they spoke in them days. But, just betwixt thee and me, thou knowest whichest oneth to’eth useth! LOL!!
Also, the Strong’s Concordance is based on the KJV. The Strong’s Concordance is not a commentary, but just gives the Hebrew and Greek definitions of the English words used. I don’t use Matthew Henry, blah, blah, just the Strong’s. The Strong’s has very very few critics, and it has stood the test.
Ed
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Kay,
I mentioned “Bind and Loose” over at JAX. It didn’t get posted for some reason.
But look at a couple of examples:
Jesus said:
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
That is a great example.
Also,
Stephen said:
“cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.”
What we need to learn about bind and loose is that the sins are committed towards YOU personally.
In the first example, the Jews did not ask to be forgiven. In the second example, Stephens killers did not ask to be forgive.
No one repented. But they were forgiven. If they die and go to hell, it won’t be for killing Stephen. It won’t be for killing Jesus.
Also, victims in the Reformed arena are FORCED to forgive. But ya know what? They don’t have to forgive. They may never forgive. And that is what is binded, in my humble opinion.
Bind and loose isn’t a free for all, either. I can’t forgive someone who did something to someone else, for example. But the Catholics seem to think that they can. The sin must be against ME. I have the authority to forgive someone who sinned against ME.
Anyway, that’s my take on Bind and Loose. Besides, Verse 1 of Matthew 18 states “disciples”, not “apostles”, or “Peter”.
Ed
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Interesting. Thanks Ed.
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Kay,
On that same note, feigned forgiveness from victims forced to forgive is not forgiveness at all. It must come from the heart. Can you imagine how many spiritual/physical abusers were feignly forgiven in church? Their sins are still bounded, but they will tout that the victim forgave them. I would hate to be them on judgment day.
Ed
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Lydia,
“I should say sans the organ and robes. Replaced with Hawaiian shirts and rock bands.”
Hey…I like rock bands. When people talk bad about “organized” religion, I joke around and say, “Well, I never much liked “organs” anyway. I like guitarized religion.
I remember a few years ago, some old fuddy duddy wrote a book against Rick Warren. One of the first things he was against is that he changed the old music (that personally puts me to sleep) with evil contemporary rock and roll. Signs of old age, I suppose.
I don’t have anything bad or good to say about Rick Warren. I’ve never really had the interest, but I did read his first book, and I thought there is meaning in it. But that old fuddy duddy didn’t seem to think so. I have nothing against preachers wearing Hawaii beach shirts. Sure beats that stuffy suit and tie thing. Sometimes the pastor of the church that I go to (Notice I don’t say “MY PASTOR”?), wears khaki shorts and sandals with no socks. I don’t care. I never was much in the wearing your “Sunday Best” anyway.
Ed
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I cannot imagine. I’m sure the number would be shocking.
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I hadn’t followed Hall or Caner prior to this at all. I knew a little about Caner, and had a vague notion that Hall was a Neo-Calvinist blogger. I blog about patriarchy/FIC/homeschooling issues, not Neo-Calvinism, and frankly I’m just not interested in tracking every move of famous Neo-Calvinist pastors. So I don’t have any background knowledge of Hall’s previous writings and behavior, or whether he is/was as aggressive as everyone says.
I check every post on TWW so when the one about Braxton came up the other day, I read it. Didn’t think much of it at the time except that the suicide was tragic and “well, the comments on THIS one are gonna blow up” (I was right, they just broke 700, a TWW record or darn close I’m guessing). I left a few short comments and largely walked away from the thread after that, except to check in to see how many comments there were.
And then the longer this Braxton thing knocked about in my mind, the way it’s being handled online started to bother me.
I think this incident has brought out the absolute worst in everyone. (This isn’t a reference to any one site in particular, just to the tenor of discourse in general.) Some people insist on going after Ergun, some Neo-Calvinists were defending Hall’s initial Twitter exchange, and worst of all, Dee recently had to delete comments which appear to have been accusations that Hall murdered Braxton. This is getting out of hand, on both sides. People have lined up, started hurling identical accusations at each other over the fence (most of which fall suspiciously along party lines), and to be honest, a lot of them seem bound and determined to make asses of themselves.
I do agree that Hall’s initial Twitter exchange and radio broadcast were inappropriate and out of line. But to be honest, I think Wade and Michael Newnham handled this one much better than TWW. I know Dee stated repeatedly in the comments that she can’t definitively link the Twitter exchange with the suicide, but a hasty reading of the post could leave you with that impression, whether she intended it or not. The biggest problem was the Todd Starnes quote, which quite frankly I think was just well-poisoning on Starnes’ part. It was obvious, to me at least, that Starnes was trying to blame Hall without technically saying so. I also didn’t understand the characterization of what White said as “move along.” I’ve honestly tried to understand for the past day and a half and I just don’t. I read the original post by White, and he seems to me to be saying that everyone – everyone – should lay off the Caners until further notice.
Frankly Chris Rosebrough should have listened to White, but apparently he just can’t help himself. He had to insert that dig at Ergun. And I know it’s an unrelated point, but I’m also wishing, as a Lutheran, that Lutherans wouldn’t jump into Calvinist dogfights in the first place. Most people already think we’re the same as Calvinists, and all it does when Lutherans entangle themselves in that stuff is reinforce that (erroneous) image. And I for one don’t want to be put in the same category as Mark Driscoll and John Piper. So yeah, thanks Chris Rosebrough. Thanks a lot.
But what’s paining me the most is that I’m not sure I feel safe posting this at TWW. Not because of Dee – she’s a big girl and can handle disagreement – but because I’m afraid certain other commenters will dogpile on me for not being critical enough of White and Hall. I’m afraid some of them would even have dogpiled on Wade if he had posted his article there. TWW has never felt unsafe for me before. That disappoints me deeply and I don’t like it. If the thread has devolved to the point where people are slinging around accusations of murder, something has gone very very wrong in the dialogue surrounding this issue. Please understand I’m not blaming Dee (she’s also out of town right now which makes it even harder), but this whole situation has gone nuts, and it’s not limited to TWW.
Thanks, JA – I had to get this off my chest somewhere. This thread seems much saner than the one at TWW. I didn’t want to post this at Wade’s blog because I didn’t want to interact with John Carpenter. I’ve just about had enough of this one, from both sides.
(BTW, is he the same John Carpenter who trolls anything about Mark Driscoll? If so, then his accusations of Dee not engaging in substantive back-and-forth conversation are more than a little humorous to me.)
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It’s the same John Carpenter.
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“I think this incident has brought out the absolute worst in everyone.”
It has brought out what has been below the surface for a long while now. And if you have not been the target of either Hall and co., or to a lesser degree, White, you might not really understand it as well as you think. If you were more familiar with Hall’s “calling out” ministry, you might have a different opinion. Who knows? They are vicious men. The twitter convo with Braxton is one small part of a vicious history of hunting that family like dogs. And one of the pulpiteers who piled on Braxton is one who gave JA’s daughter such a hard time. Vicious and cruel, the lot of them.
What I do not understand is why the anti Caner faction cannot just say now, after what has happened, “he has suffered enough, we are done”. I was disappointed Wade did not point blank ask for that. And as we can see, by their own words, they are not done.
One thing you don’t understand about these people, Hester, is they use various monikers and “pretend” to be on the other side and plant things on blogs. They have done this sort of thing before in other areas and it took a while for some to figure it out. Don’t believe everything you hear. It might be hard to believe but they are not what you think. I realize many won’t believe that because Wade has spoken up for them. I avoid them like the plague because they play dirty.
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Hester, I feel obligated to say that I have a teen who was targeted in similar fashion by “Christian” leaders because of my refusal to go along with something I thought nefarious. It would have never occured to me in a million years they would use my kid in a way. A trusting and respectful teen. It was a devastating experience. They were people my teen should have been able to trust no matter our differences. But my teen was simply fodder to them. A tool. Anyone who has not had that happen to them and their kid, it might be hard to understand. And the twitter exchange seem like not that big of a deal to them. Some cannot who may not have teens cannot conceive that they carry around so much baggage already, especially when it involves church problems with family, etc and we have no idea how that might have affected him. Teens tend to react to things in the opposite way we think. They can often appear bravado and like nothing bothers them when the opposite is true.
Because I have been through something similar (several times, in fact, by same circle I left) that twitter exchange hit me between the eyes BEFORE the suicide. I was furious.
So give some of us a break. We have lived through something similar and know the effects it can have. I am not making a leap here. Targeting Braxton was wrong in the first place. I am sorry so many are playing it down because it is important to let “Christian leaders” know it is wrong and kids are off limits. EVen get legal if we need to.
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I know this is vile and evil filthy human emotion which is basically worshiping Satan, Im sad a kid killed himself, I read the online report about the death it was tragic as well as decisive. He wanted to die. I grieve for that, no child should ever want to die. I mean death comes fast enough. In my faith tradition God longs for our death, He cant wait so that justice can be done. We all have it coming. How does God get any glory from some kid killing himself? How does God get any glory at all from a virus that could kill millions, actually Ebola is a species ender if it ever gets loose. What glory is in that? Rhology’s theology thinks God orchestrated all these things and the get off on pushing their theology. Personally I think they are psychotic and need professional help. First they need to shut up, but the wont they are on a mission.
Talk about people who do not take responsability, a train wreck in the making.
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@ Nicholas:
1. Does Wade know that?
2. Is John Carpenter Seneca/Jimmy?
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Addendum @ Nicholas:
Because acting as badly as Carpenter does, getting yourself banned, and then going around calling the blog(s) that banned you abusive, is not only the height of trollery but also has a lot in common with the tactics of actual verbal abusers. I could prove that with a single visit to ACFJ or any site about how to recognize domestic abuse.
As for what he said about TWW on Wade’s blog, yeah, the idea that Dee has a secret agenda against all church authority was laughable. Her supposedly “abusive” behavior also doesn’t jive with what I’ve witnessed in the comments section and I’ve been hanging around TWW for over two years now. If anybody here remembers Gavin, that ought to put the charges of automatically deleting everyone who disagrees with her, to bed. I will say that sometimes innocent Calvinists do get hammered a little too hard by some commenters (not Dee), but I can understand the overreaction given that 99% of the people there were treated terribly by Calvinists.
And FWIW, I preemptively banned Seneca from Scarlet Letters a while back. I knew for sure he was irredeemable when he briefly defended Doug Phillips on TWW after the initial announcement back in October – which is a person/subculture I DO have all the relevant background on. Stupid move Seneca. Looks like Dee didn’t “jump to conclusions” on that one.
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Hester,
Good comment, Hester. What I would like to do, however, is to get someone from the Calvin side of the debate to tell us WHY the Ergun Caner issue is extremely important to them.
There must be a thousand if there is one pastor who has ever lied. Why THIS one? Why this ONE? WHY this one?
Me, I have no problem with people speculating that JD Hall is a murderer. We did the same for the OJ Simpson trial. Everybody did. All walks of life did. People from every religion did. Everyone had an opinion as to whether OJ did it, or didn’t do it.
So why is it wrong to do it with this situation? It’s not a sin to be in the court of public opinion.
1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
You don’t have to commit the act to be a murderer. He hates Ergun Caner. The Bible tells us what our behavior is if we love people.
Ergun Caner MUST be extremely important to the Calvinists. Otherwise, they would leave him alone. He doesn’t want to be a Calvinist, and no one can force him to be a Calvinist. He wants nothing to do with Calvinism, so why do the Calvinists concentrate on Caner at all?
Why won’t the Calvinists “dust their feet”?
In MY mind, there is only two reasons why a 15 year old would commit suicide.
1. JD Hall
2. Girlfriend broke up with him.
Ed
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@ Lydia:
Oh, I absolutely believe that some in that crowd could engage in that kind of behavior (Driscoll and his fans especially). I also have no reason to disbelieve Lumpkins when he says that he’s been secretly recorded, hounded, etc. So yeah, I’m hardly a fan of Neo-Calvinism. It has a huge problem with authoritarianism, abuse and patriarchy / extreme comp. I was pleased to see Mark Driscoll finally get the official boot from Acts 29 the other day (though obviously that doesn’t mean the aforementioned problems are gone).
I’m very sorry what happened to you and your kids. I actually think it’s possible (likely?) that the Twitter exchange contributed to whatever was going on in Braxton’s head; I didn’t mean to convey that it couldn’t have been a factor at all. I just think Todd Starnes came a little too close to backhandedly blaming the suicide completely on Hall, which I doubt is the case. We’ll never know the whole story of “why” because Braxton isn’t here to tell us.
Absolutely. And for John Carpenter to claim, with zero evidence, on Wade’s blog that Dee would attack a child in a heartbeat, immediately after complaining that Dee claims things without evidence, was amusing to say the least.
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@ chapmaned24:
Except with OJ Simpson we had the vicious and obvious homicide of his ex-wife. Here we have a Twitter exchange and a radio program, and then a suicide in another state a whole month later. Those aren’t anywhere close to the same situation. Saying Hall harassed or cyberbullied Braxton and could have contributed to the mental state that led to his suicide is one thing, but homicide wouldn’t stand up in a court of law for a second. In fact it would probably never even make it to trial.
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Brian,
You had said:
“In my faith tradition God longs for our death, He cant wait so that justice can be done. We all have it coming.”
My response:
What? In my faith tradition God longs for life, not our death. God is long suffering, meaning that he gives us MUCH TIME to come to our senses. He wills that all come to him. God is compassionate, full of mercy and grace. And, in regards to justice, justice was already served on Jesus Christ for everyone…UNLESS you reject THAT justice, THEN justice will be served on those who REJECT THAT justice.
Ed
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Mornin’ Ed,
I’ve never seen Tim Hawkins, but I’ve heard short clips on the radio. He makes very good points while being very funny. I don’t think I would care for the Bible in Hip Hop or Rap and am not real sure if they are the same of 2 different things. Now Reggae, maybe. That has a nice beat to it.
I ordered the Strong’s Concordance last night, newest version available. I don’t agree with the way some folks view the KJV and I’ve seen Shakespeare done in a modern version–didn’t like it one bit. I like the thee’s and thou’s. I like the KJV best, but I was raised in a church where everyone used it and I do mean everyone. Any other version was taboo and only used privately in your own home if at all. I bought my mom and my kids an NIV a few years ago and they all thought I had gone mad. Maybe so, but I thought study should go beyond my comfort zone so that I could say yeah or nay out of my own understanding and not someone else’s. I also compare my 2 main Bibles with the Geneva and the ESV, just for grins and giggles. The Geneva gets a lot of those.
I’ve learned a lot from this site and the people here, which proves you are never too old to learn.
Brenda
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Hester,
You had said:
homicide wouldn’t stand up in a court of law for a second. In fact it would probably never even make it to trial.”
My response:
But it will stand at the great white throne. He who hates his brother is a murderer, and the bible tells us what hate looks like, and what love looks like.
Carnal justice may not ever happen, but eternal justice will. You can be sure of it.
However, I would LOVE for this to go to trial. I want all of the evidence on the table. But, your side denies that there is evidence. Today’s laws are new in regards to cyber stalking and harassing, due to the internet not being that old. Teenagers are committing suicide by the huge numbers due to being harassed online.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this one out, Hester. I want it to go to trial. Just saying that it wouldn’t hold up in court doesn’t matter to me. Let’s take it to court, and see.
Ed
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Brenda,
Cool. Ya, I have seen the blogs in regards to the KJV Onlyists. The KJV is hard to understand. The Onlyists should at least admit that. But I want to first hear it in my own “native tongue”, so to speak, hence NIVr.
Your way of doing it pretty much matches mine.
Oh, if you get a chance, just go over to youtube and query Tim Hawkins. There are tons of his comedic acts there. He’s very funny.
Ed
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Hester,
From Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberstalking_legislation
in the case of United States v. Lori Drew, in which Megan Meier had committed suicide after being bullied on MySpace, three of the four charges against the defendant (Drew) were actually in response to alleged violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, since specific statues against cyberbullying were not on the books. The jury eventually found Drew innocent of the charges (but guilty of a misdemeanor), a verdict that was later set aside by the judge. In this situation, legislators in Missouri, at the urging of the public and Meier’s parents, passed “Megan’s Law”,[9][10] primarily aimed at the crime of a person over 21 years of age bullying a person under 18 years of age.
In addition, prosecutors will sometimes use other legal avenues to prosecute offenders. In the case of Tyler Clementi, who killed himself after video of his homosexual encounter was broadcast on the Internet, prosecutors charged the defendants with invasion of privacy and computer crimes. Like the Meier case, the Clementi case spurred legislators (this time, in New Jersey) to pass a law specifically aimed at bullying, an “Anti-bullying Bill of Rights”.[11]
1. Texas Law:
http://www.haltabuse.org/resources/laws/texas.shtml
2. Montana Law:
http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/8/45-8-213.htm
http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/5/45-5-220.htm
JD is in Montana, and Braxton was in Texas. JD is an adult, Braxton a minor.
I think that the law is clear enough that there is criminal liability here. The evidence is electronic. No amount of deleting will sweep it under the carpet. Forensics can find anything deleted.
Ed
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I’m with you, Ed. Never mind the fact that Hall requested Braxton contact him privately. Because (sarcasm alert) we all know that Pastors NEVER engage in inappropriate relationships with minors.
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I’ve read stuff from the other side that he didn’t mean to talk to Braxton. Um, no. If that was the case, he would not have included Braxton’s Twitter tag, he would have just said “Braxton.” Instead we see he intentionally tagged him. Tagging him means that Braxton would have received a notification that someone was wanting his attention. JD Hall knows Twitter. He knows Tagging. It is ridiculous to try to show otherwise.
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There is, of course, a place for calling out error. However, when these preachers-cum-bullies call out for the purposes of condemnation, manipulation, coercion, control and even vengeful destruction, they cannot legitimately claim to be pastors/shepherds. To appropriate a term that has just been coined by Barbara Roberts over at cryingoutforjustice.com (http://tinyurl.com/k4ouo7t), they have revealed themselves to be sssssheperds, as in the progeny of that serpent who is our adversary, the accuser of the saints.
Sometimes, alas, I convict myself.
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Kay,
MacArthur’s Commentary.
” the keys of the kingdom of heaven. These represent authority, and here Christ gives Peter (and by extension all other believers) authority to declare what was bound or loosed in heaven.”
To me, we need to take this back to Matthew 16. And, the Catholics started this mess when they state that Peter is the rock. Unfortunately, even some protestants believe that as well, hence, to them, Peter is some sort of Christian guru.
Well, for the rest of us, we see the “rock” as that of being Peter’s “declaration” that Jesus is the Christ. Anyone that believes THAT declaration has the SAME keys as Peter does.
Keys unlock a door. That tells me that we “enter in” the Kingdom with them thar keys.
Verse 19
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Some tend to think that Peter is the only one with them keys. I guess Home Depot didn’t exist back in them days, huh?
The topic of bind and loose is a different subject within the same verse.
One of the most interesting things that I have learned is that to get a complete picture of the gospels, we need to “zipper” all of the gospels together. These are witnesses, and these are their story of what happened. For example,
Matthew 16:16-20 (Note verse 20 as a reference)
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
————————
Mark 8:29-30
29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
———————–
Note: Do you see how much information was left out in Mark? The words of Matthew 16:17-19 was left out, and so is Luke’s reference below.
———————
Luke 9:
20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
————————
So, we have two topics in Matthew that Mark and Luke do not discuss:
1. Keys
2. Bind and Loose
Keys to Kingdom
There are only 2 references to keys in the whole bible. The other is in Revelation that Jesus has the keys to death and hell.
The first is the keys to the kingdom, which, if opposite, of death and hell, is life and heaven.
I believe that anyone who declares Jesus as the Christ has those keys. To me, those keys do not represent “authority”, and I do not believe that it has anything to do with forgiving sin, aka bind and loose. To me, it means that we “enter in”, as individuals by way of those keys, and each and every Christian has those keys.
Bind and Loose:
There is only 2 references to Bind and Loose. Matthew 16 and Matthew 18.
My explanation of that I already discussed, forgiving (loose), or not forgiving (bind) sin that was committed against you personally. It is not to be used “corporately”, or as a church body, etc. Personal only. Catholic priests cannot forgive sins, except if that sin was against them personally.
The book of John does not discuss these topics at all.
Ed
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Ed,
Great example of in depth study. This is our understanding as well. I love your advice earlier “you and your Bible” and the practice of using Scripture to define Scripture is great.
We recently had a discussion with a TMS grad and my husband mentioned these passages and it was like auto pilot response – “That’s about authority.” We were very encouraged by his response after the discussion, not that we changed his mind, but that he was open to more serious study. It was like a light bulb turned on and he saw there were problems with what he had been taught.
We’ve also encountered especially immature pastors who are peacock proud because as a pastor they are in the unbroken chain of 2 Tim 2:2. At graduation they were handed the baton of authority and what a destructive path some of them take. It’s an amazing thing to see.
Matthew 18, (ignoring the forgiveness section that follows) comes flying out of mouths and “elder” injected in passages where there is no such mention in Scripture. What a mess!
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@ Ed:
My “side”? I explicitly stated upthread that I am no fan of Neo-Calvinism, and that cyberbullying was not off the table. I’m just not convinced that cyberbullying necessarily adds up to premeditated murder. As for the court cases you quoted, notice that in none of them were the cyberbullies convicted of homicide. They were convicted of computer and privacy crimes. Those aren’t the same thing. Now if you want to argue that they should have been convicted of murder, go right ahead, but the fact remains that legally the charge didn’t fly – and that was for much more extreme and long-term situations than Braxton’s. Legalities do matter if we’re going to throw around words like “murder.”
I actually do think that the Twitter exchange / radio show probably contributed to whatever headspace Braxton was in that led him to take his own life. What the rest of it may have been, I don’t know, nobody knows and we’ll probably never know unless Braxton revealed it himself in a note and the family chooses to say later (and they’re under no obligation to do so). At the very least Hall’s actions probably didn’t help. If they did contribute, then yes, he will be held accountable by God for his part in the tragedy. But trying to prove intent and premeditation to kill Braxton (which is what you would need for murder)? That can’t be done. At most you’d get accidental manslaughter.
Just because I don’t think Hall committed homicide, doesn’t mean I think he’s a perfect angelic cherub or that the initial Twitter exchange / radio show were a good thing. I explicitly stated upthread that Hall’s actions were wrong and inappropriate. Pigeonholing everyone into binary “sides” is part of what’s wrong with the internet-wide discourse on this incident. Are our only choices really “Hall was right to go after Braxton” and “Hall committed homicide”?
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@ Julie Anne:
Yeah, that’s a silly argument. Coupled with the radio show it’s especially so. Of course he intended to interact with Braxton.
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Kay,
It’s cool to compare notes like this. It’s funny that the young newly seminary graduated, educated pastors seem to find things in scripture that just isn’t there. Still wet behind the ears, and boom…Elder so and so, Pastor so and so, that has absolutely no clue. They are just relaying what someone taught them. Sometimes it’s just funny at how ignorant that they are, but at other times, it is pretty pathetic.
Ed
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Hester,
I say “your side” for a reason. Your side states that it is a sad situation that Braxton committed suicide. But your side is so afraid of admitting the obvious. Yes, your side.
With all due respect, Hester, I think that you are pretty ignorant.
If I were you, I would do more research in regards to children being cyber-bullied that wound up committing suicide, and couple that with the statutes of law for each state.
SOMEONE is responsible for those suicides, and the law states that the one who cyberbullied is responsible. Yes, your side doesn’t seem to see, or should I say, refuses to see the obvious. The laws are holding people responsible for the deaths of teens who commit suicide based on cyber bullying. I can’t seem to get people like you who don’t see a connection between Braxton’s suicide and JD Hall’s cyber bullying. It’s mind boggling.
Why can’t you acknowledge that? Calvinism always talks out of both sides of their mouths. They refuse to take responsibility for their own unlawful actions.
But again, and I have absolutely no idea how you keep missing this most important aspect of this. The Bible.
That Bible states He Who Hates His Brother Is A Murderer. And That Bible states what love is, and what hate is. JD Hates people. JD Hates many people. Based on That Bible, JD has murdered many people.
The Great White Throne Awaits, buddy!!
Ed
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Hester,
You said:
“Yeah, that’s a silly argument. Coupled with the radio show it’s especially so. Of course he intended to interact with Braxton.”
I’d love for the prosecuting attorney to use that argument, too. It ain’t so silly to a prosecutor.
Ed
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@ Ed:
I allowed that there could be a connection between Hall’s interactions with Braxton and Braxton’s suicide. I also said that I thought there probably was. Since I’ve explicitly stated this twice now, stop saying I haven’t allowed for it.
Also, since I’m not Calvinist (as I also explicitly stated upthread), I’m not sure what Calvinists talking out both sides of their mouths has to do with me.
So since I’m ignorant, please enlighten me why the cyberbullies in the cases you mentioned were charged with computer and privacy crimes and not homicide, even though there were obvious strong connections (arguably stronger than the one between Hall and Braxton) between their cyberbullying and the suicides that followed? None of the laws you linked to mentioned anything about homicide or suicide.
As for the Bible, of course it says he who hates his brother is a murderer. But I’m talking about the US legal code. The US legal code doesn’t prosecute people for murder because they’re engaging in hatred. If it did, a huge percentage of the population would be in jail. In other words, legal codes are never a perfect reflection of morality, but that doesn’t mean they’re unimportant.
Claiming someone committed a (legal) crime they didn’t commit is serious business. A (legal) charge of cyberbullying against J. D. Hall might be tenable. A (legal) charge of murder would not. If you meant murder as in hating your brother, that may be okay Biblically, but when most people read the word “murder,” unless you qualified exactly what you meant, that’s not what they think of. Their brains will jump to the legal concept of premeditated murder and that’s what they will think you are accusing Hall of. Maybe you’re okay with that. I wouldn’t be, because it would be a legal falsehood.
I also wouldn’t be walking around loudly proclaiming that someone is a murderer due to hatred as if this were something unique to J. D. Hall. Basically everyone hates someone else at some point. But nobody starts demanding heads roll for regular everyday hatred. In other words, if Braxton had never committed suicide, nobody ever would have called J. D. Hall a murderer even if he had trolled Braxton’s Twitter feed every day.
In any case, here’s what Dee said:
I don’t know if the comments in question meant “regular murder” or hating your brother, but Dee didn’t appear to care. Probably because she knows there can be legal fallout from accusing someone of murder without legal grounds. I agree with her.
Wikipedia articles on murder, manslaughter and malice aforethought for legal definitions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_aforethought
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@ Ed:
Please explain what you were implying here.
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Ed,
You know how I feel about Hall’s interaction with Braxton and how inappropriate the tweets were. I want to be careful about the use of the word hate/murder because then aren’t we doing the same thing: judging the hearts of man? Where is that magical line where it crosses from strongly disliking someone to hating someone? Not you nor I have been given the ability to see in someone’s heart. I think it’s appropriate to question behavior, speak strongly about what we see as bad behavior, but I get very uneasy about the judging hearts part.
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“Are our only choices really “Hall was right to go after Braxton” and “Hall committed homicide”?”
I personally think those choices are silly. To me, the choices are: Hall’s ministry of calling out (which lead to targeting Braxton) represents Christianity Or, It does not.
That to me is a “voice of reason” question.
One side is saying it did not help and was inappropriate and even creepy what Hall did. The other side is saying it had nothing to do with any of it.
We simply do not know one way or the other but we should err on the side of it obviously added to whatever hell he was living in at the time. Do folks really think a 15 year old blew off such a thing from an adult pastor and his friends accusing him of immorality and it being his dads fault then offering to tell him the truth about his dad? This is sick stuff that movement is blowing off with a vague apology sandwiched in with why it is ok to call them out over and over and over. Braxton was right. They ARE obsessed with his dad.
These are not things Hall and his followers (Even Wade) seem to want to admit. And it is a wake up call for the SBC and Christianity in general. What on earth are we supporting out there?
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Hester, one more clarification. I was very outspoke on Caner when that info came out and he was at Liberty. But within a year I saw a very dark side to that whole movement against him which made me ill. There was much more to it than what meets the eye. That does not exonerate Caner. But it sure made me not want to be a part of it either.
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Hester,
Obviously you didn’t read all of the words. The internet was quite new. At that time there was no legit laws on the books to prosecute. NOW there are. That is what the article stated. Public outcry changed the laws.
I asked that you do research. That means to read more than what I provided. Please do that. You are minimizing this.
You may not be a Calvinist, but you are on their side of the argument. Hence, your side. You are not on our side, that’s for sure.
Ed
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JA,
“Not you nor I have been given the ability to see in someone’s heart. ”
I hear ya…I do…but…actions show the heart. Otherwise, how can we perceive if someone hates us? If someone hates me, they don’t have to tell me. I will see it.
Matthew 15:18-19
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
But, I will refrain myself.
Ed
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Hester,
You said:
“I’d love for the prosecuting attorney to use that argument, too. It ain’t so silly to a prosecutor.
Please explain what you were implying here.”
My response:
You said that it was a silly argument. Well, prosecutors would not see it as a silly argument.
In court, lawyers make an argument. I really thought that my comment was self explanatory.
Ed
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Thank you 🙂
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Hester,
You said:
“Claiming someone committed a (legal) crime they didn’t commit is serious business. ”
Why? OJ Simpson was acquitted. But that doesn’t mean that he didn’t do it.
Those who accuse people, regardless of the outcome, never go on trial…unless there was obstruction of justice, meaning that the person KNOWINGLY lied.
So how is it serious business?
Ed
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“And for John Carpenter to claim, with zero evidence, on Wade’s blog that Dee would attack a child in a heartbeat, immediately after complaining that Dee claims things without evidence, was amusing to say the least.”
Carpenter has a reputation much like Hall’s. Mean and vindictive.
And he is accusing TWW of horrors while praising Wade to the sky. Strangeness all around.
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http://timguthrie.blogspot.com/2014/08/an-open-letter-to-pastors-stop-ministry.html
Some background info that might be useful and some of it I can attest to.
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“I am on record as being very much against what Wade has taught concerning victims of abuse and their abusers.”
I am the same; his teaching helped push me into the darkest despair of my life. A sledgehammer to my mind and heart, that I will need therapy to hopefully recover from.
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Oasis,
I am so, so sorry for the pain you feel.
I also have some grave concerns after reading Wade’s last post. And I believe that anyone concerned for the safety of minors in our churches should be as well. The exchange between Hall and Braxton raised so many red flags. One of the classic examples of predatory grooming behavior is for a predator to seek a “private” or “secret” relationship with a victim out of parental oversight.
We’ve all read about how conniving predators can be. Hindsight is 20/20. I’m afraid millstones may become the latest Christian statement necklace.
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BeenThereDoneThat, thank you, your kindness means a lot. 🙂
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@ Ed:
This has become one royal fellowship of corruption, and now, of death.
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Hester,
Well, I promised to refrain. “I” think that he is guilty of what I am not supposed to talk about. That is my personal opinion. And, I don’t think that it is wrong to accuse him.
What I was really talking about was that he is responsible, in some capacity, of the death, and I don’t care what you call it, be it homicide, or what I am refraining from. No matter what YOU or I, or the LAW calls it, he is culpable. And, by the laws that ARE on the books, he should be tried, and convicted. I call it what I am refraining from.
According to the http://www.dallaspolice.net/content/11/66/uploads/dpd_cyber-bullying.pdf (TEXAS)
it is a FELONY in some cases, or MISD. in other cases. In either case, if the family wants to pursue this, they have a case. Hall can be prosecuted. Hall can be accused of breaking the law.
Slander/Defamation? Hardly. I have the freedom to speak my mind. Or haven’t you heard, pastors loose defamation cases. I’m not buying the free advice from that attorney. That doesn’t scare me in the least. I will not be silenced by the thought police, not now, not ever. This is the kitchen table.
Ed
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Hester,
Do you accept some or all 5 Points within TULIP?
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Hester,
You had said:
“(And no, my conscience will not allow me to call Hall’s interaction with Braxton good or acceptable either, because it was obviously creepy and inappropriate.)”
My response:
That doesn’t go far enough. He broke the law. Just saying creepy and inappropriate minimizes this whole thing. He broke the law.
Your minimizing by just saying that it is creepy and inappropriate is exactly why I say “your side”. You refuse to acknowledge that he broke the law. You are too afraid to say it. Why? Because you are afraid of a defamation lawsuit? I think that is funny.
YOUR SIDE minimizes it all. And I am not afraid to say “your side”, either.
Ed
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We can’t say he broke the law until there is a conviction.
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JA,
If that be the case, then no one would be “detained” in jails. People detained are accused of breaking the law. They wouldn’t be there for doing something creepy or inappropriate.
Ed
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Ed,
You were stating it as a fact – can’t do that here. Linda Williams isn’t in WA to help me with another defamation lawsuit.
Accused does not mean conviction. Of course in this case, it must be reported and then our govt officials determine whether there is just cause for arrest. You and I aren’t in a position to determine that.
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JA,
I’m feeling a bit censored here. I have to respectfully disagree that we cannot say that he broke the law. You are right, accused does not mean conviction. I never said conviction. I am accusing. I never heard that it is against the law to accuse.
What does the word “reported” indicate? Accuse, right? The court of public opinion is free. Why are we being oh so sensitive of accusing JD Hall of a crime?
I’m sorry, but creepy and inappropriate just does not go far enough. I’ve never thought that I would really see the day that we can’t say what we truly believe, because what it then boils down to is that we, then, are afraid of JD Hall. And that is what he wants, too, that we be afraid of him.
Ed
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Peter Lumpkins just posted a link that Hall has decided to stop going after Ergun Caner:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/baptist-preacher-jd-hall-calls-connection-between-braxton-caners-suicide-and-twitter-clash-unfair-but-will-back-off-on-ergun-caner-124546/
Ed
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Thanks for the link, Ed. JD still sounds like JD. He has managed to make himself out to the real victim, now.
I used to get a kick out him always rebuking people for “judging” him while he was rebuking and judging someone else. He never seemed to be able to connect the dots.
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Lydia,
Ironic, huh. JD has indeed made himself be the victim. He thinks it is “unfair”. Now he sees how others feel when he attacks them. Good.
Ed
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This is the part that is troublesome. We are not the ones who get to determine that. It is lawmakers who determine if he broke the law. I sure saw inappropriate behavior on Twitter, but there were not that many tweets between the 2 of them. He crossed the line of moral judgment, yes. He was a fool to engage a minor, yes. He was certainly not acting like a shepherd. His behavior over the years against Caner has been ridiculous. It takes lawyers and judges to look at the legal definition to determine if there is a case and if it could go to trial/conviction. Ok, so there’s that issue. The other issue is what I alluded to earlier. I don’t want people saying things as fact because I don’t need another lawsuit. If you cloak your words with “I believe,” “it is my opinion,” then I won’t be whining.
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“If you cloak your words with “I believe,” “it is my opinion,” then I won’t be whining.”
Yep, that is the safest route.
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JA,
OK. I believe that he broke the law. Now, why are others afraid to say even that?
I still don’t like the fact that we have to veil, or cloak words.
Say for example that someone raped you. Are you to say, “I believe that he raped me.” Or do you say, “He raped me.” Or, do you say that he was inappropriate against you?
Even when there must be a “determination” by a judge on whether it will go to trial or not, a person is still “detained in jail”, then he goes in front of the judge with his attorney, and the prosecuting attorney, then the judge, in front of the accused, tells the accused that there is merit for the case, or not. But still, he was accused before the judge made the determination.
Hey…I watch Perry Mason!!! LOL! Just kidding on that. But I am serious on the above.
Ed
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Ed,
@ 9:56 p.m. Good?
Whatever he is feeling, not so sure under these circumstances this is Good.
Brother in Christ
Mark
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There is a difference between legal and moral. Christian morality in a pluralistic society is yet another thing, and there are many interpretations of what Christian morality means — obviously.
And the topics and issues involved are all loaded ones.
We’ve got to work on sorting those out — as individuals and as a group of Christians.
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I believe he acted like a bully, Ed. I am just unfamiliar with the law to know if he broke the law. If I understood cyberbullying laws and felt that he fit the parameters, I wouldn’t have a problem saying it. You know me. I called my pastor a spiritual abuser, a creep, and all kinds of things, which is what got me here 🙂
How can you be so sure he broke the law, Ed? Have you looked at the state law on cyber bullying? Go ahead and post it here so we can discuss it.
And you can e-mail me whatever you want and tell me how you really feel, in a private setting. Let me have it! The ballgame is different in a public forum.
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JA, I posted a link of the cyber crimes division of the Dallas, Texas Police Department.
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