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What is the responsibility of pastors for those they deem have “gone astray?” Do pastoral confidentiality rules apply even when someone resigns their church membership?
***
***
The other day, I read an article, Stabbed in the Back by a Cult Leader and it left me feeling sad and angry. “Sheldon” is a young man who met with the pastor of his church of which he was a member for 12 years. The pastor barely knew Sheldon as he had only been there a couple of years. The purpose of Sheldon’s visit was to resign his church membership and to explain some very personal details that led to his decision:
**
Since the abuse of my past played a role in the life experiences that led me there, I told him about how I was beaten until I was about 11 years old, forced off medication for my depression, barricaded in the house of my “parents” and threatened with violence when I tried to leave at 21 years old, and about the most recent of the abuse, “The Confrontation,” where just this past December, when I was forced to cut them out of my life, and they tried to break into my home and nearly assaulted me in front of a police officer.
I told him even if I could believe in Christianity again (which is a massive remove possibility), I couldn’t go back to a church as conservative as that church, and I definitely could not return to that church, for my own safety. When I told him this, I explicitly told him that I expected this to be confidential, my exact words were “this should not leave this office.” He never once objected to this, and I went on with the presumption that it would remain confidential.
**
There is a lot that we can tear apart in Sheldon’s post: the way the Christians deal with mental health issues, corporal punishment, the idea of adult children as personal property, etc. Each one of those topics can get my ire up, especially as it crosses the lines into abuse. But what I’d like to discuss is this:
***
The pastor did in fact reveal Sheldon’s personal details to the church body without Sheldon’s permission.
***
Sheldon contacted the pastor to ask for confirmation that he had in fact revealed Sheldon’s personal information, and here is a the pastor’s response (pastor’s name removed).
Therefore, I wrote you to communicate my intentions as you resigned the day of the business meeting. Once again, it is out of deep love and in obedience to God’s Word that I have performed these actions. You are more than welcome to touch base with me about this issue if you like. I have tried to go by your house to see you, but have been unsuccessful thus far. You are in our prayers.
Sincerely,
Pastor ________
***
I corresponded with Sheldon to get more information. Sheldon was not in church discipline. He voluntarily left his membership. The pastor sided with his parents.
What is the appropriate Biblical response to Sheldon’s situation?
Was the pastor within his right to disclose personal information to the church body?
Is it ever appropriate to share personal information to the church body?
If you were Sheldon’s pastor, how would you have handled this situation?
If you could say something to Sheldon (I have a hunch he’ll be reading), what words would you share with him?
***
Update: Sheldon sent me a photo of the letter that his former pastor dropped by yesterday. This is ongoing harassment. Sheldon has already resigned his membership.
___________,
I am deeply sorry for the misunderstanding associated with our encounter and my responsibility toward God and the church. The last thing I want is for there to be something else in the way of you coming to the truth. Please know that I care very much for you as many at Grace also do, and I would welcome an in person conversation with you.
Sincerely,
Pastor ________
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Sheldon, This pastor was way out of line and has no Biblical reason for what he did. You specifically stated that your conversation was to remain confidential and outside of discussing this with you the only one that he should have discussed the situation with was God in prayer. No earthly being should have ever known about this situation. It was no one elses business in anyway. My prayer is that at some point you will find a church where you can feel safe and know that you are loved by God. We live in a fallen world, with evil people. “Scars show us where we have been, they do not decide where we are going”. This is something I have to tell myself each and every day. (((((((HUGS)))))))
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Attorneys and therapists are legally bound to maintain the confidentiality of their clients even if the client is no longer living. It seems to me that we should hold members of the clergy to this same standard, at a minimum. They not only function as counselors but as spiritual leaders and as such must be held to a higher standard than we hold others in the legal and helping professions.
It seems to me that this “pastor’s” actions were entirely self-serving and had absolutely nothing to do with his stated intention. Sheldon, I am so sorry that this happened to you. You were re-traumatized by someone you trusted–another huge betrayal. You did not deserve this and this wasn’t your fault.
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Sheldon
I’m sorry that you endured so much abuse in your life. 😦
I’m glad you are getting free from – those who caused that abuse.
You had to “Dis-own” your parents – I know that hurts in so many ways.
My parents, extended family, “Dis-owned” me….
Called me the Black Sheep of the family. Wrote me out of the will. And worse.
When I became a follower of Jesus…
I’m sorry that you endured betrayal from “The Pastor.” That hursts…
I also endured betrayal from “The Pastor.” A close friend. – Devaastated…
Those were some dark, dark, days…
I’m glad you are getting free from – Christian-Dumb.
I’m glad that I am now free from – Christian-Dumb.
“The Corrupt Religious System”…
The 501 (c)3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation…
That the IRS calls church.
Be blessed in your search fro truth…
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Oh, Sheldon, this hurts to read it. When that “pastor” agreed to keep your conversation confidential and then broke that agreement he became a liar. Know who the bible calls the father of lies?
It sounds like your parents should be charged with assault. You deserve better than this. I hope and pray you find a path of healing from the physical and spiritual abuse. It was wrong. Situations like this are what’s given Christianity the reputation of a blight.
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I don’t believe in “pastoral confidentiality” in the first place.
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Exactly, BTDT – is it any wonder why people like Sheldon run from their “faith?” Well, first of all, I don’t believe what they were exposed to was authentic Christianity. I’ve seen more authentic Christianity here than I’ve experienced in many churches. The Body of Christ does indeed meet here and so many other places, even outside of institutional churches.
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Actually, in many states, pastoral confidentiality is recognized in law. And the revealing of confidential information against the wishes of the person confiding is a civil tort, often by anyone, but certainly by someone in a professional relationship with the confider, like a pastor. “Sheldon” should consult an attorney forthwith. In addition, if the “parents” were as abusive as “Sheldon” said, and he has the police officer as a witness to some of the same, he may also have a civil claim there. Please consult an attorney in your area, first asking whether they have ties to the pastor or parents before talking about the nature of your possible suit(s).
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Anybody else notice that the “Bible” was more important than Sheldon the person…the suffering human?
It amazes me that what passes for Christianity has gone so far down this road. Of course it always has since about the 4th Century but we are supposed to be smarter than this now because most of us in the West are not illiterate and we do not have church/state rulers keeping us from searching for truths.
A book. A “collection of books” (Bible) has replaced– completely– the Holy Spirit. A “collection of books”- it is obvious they do not understand at all!~ That replaces Sheldon, the human being who is suffering horribly and was treated like dirt.
What would be the appropriate response? Sheldon is most important despite his “beliefs”. Why not SHOW him the real Jesus Christ in deeds? Why not read the Gospels and act like that, at least?
They are making people start to despise the Bible because they use it wrongly. They use it as a weapon, to make themselves look more pious, as a club to beat folks with, etc.
Not to this:
“was obligated biblically [sic] to do this, as our Lord prescribes that the church body have an opportunity to restore a church member who has gone astray. I never submit to rules of confidentiality that are superseded by a higher authority whether that of the state or of God’s Word”
So where does it say this explicitly for that particular situation?
This pastor is in horrible sin himself. His opportunity to “restore” Sheldon is lost because of his faulty understanding. Sheldon was expressing doubts as would be sort of unhealthy if he didn’t. That is how we grow. Doubts are good if they send us searching and challenged. Doubts are even better when expressed to believers who love you through it and walk along side you on your journey expressing unconditional love even if you declare yourself an unbeleiver.
There is nothing more powerful and potent than pure unconditional love in a situation like this. A book cannot love you.
I am so weary of this. Sheldon are you out there reading? If you are there are believers who love you sight unseen and who are grieved by your treatment from your parents and pastor. People you should be able to trust. I am so glad you are away from them.
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“I don’t believe in “pastoral confidentiality” in the first place.”
Me either.
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“You had to “Dis-own” your parents – I know that hurts in so many ways.
My parents, extended family, “Dis-owned” me….
Called me the Black Sheep of the family. Wrote me out of the will. And worse.
When I became a follower of Jesus…”
I am so sorry, Amos. I had no idea. Your comments have always been a blessing to me.
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Lydia and John, can you elaborate further on:
“I don’t believe in “pastoral confidentiality” in the first place.”
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Once that pastor beytrayed Sheldon’s confidence, and told his congregation his most painful, private secrets, that pastor became a gossipper. When anyone comes to another to share private information and specifically requests that the information remain confidential, then that request should be honored…..unless it becomes a matter of law breaking or detrimental to the life or health of the confessor or others.
Spreading confidential information of someone’s childhood of abuse is not biblically mandated. It’s gossip, and it’s wrong. You don’t have to be a lawyer or doctor or pastor in order to keep someone’s confidential secrets.
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To reiterate what An Attorney said, the legal privilege of clergy confidentiality belongs to the person making the “confession,” not to the clergy member. Just last year, the “church” of Scientology tried to assert that it controlled the contents of a former member’s “pc folders” against the ex-member, who wanted them for use in a lawsuit against Scientology. Courts all the way up to the US Supreme Court refused to hear Scientology’s novel argument that it owned the clergy confidentiality privilege. (And, for the record, testimony from previous hearings and interrogatories had established that dozens of people had access to Laura DeCrescenzo’s “pc folders.” So much for “confidentiality.”)
As for whether speaking to an attorney (as opposed to An Attorney) might be useful or helpful, I don’t know. I’m of mixed emotions about getting The Law involved, although a strongly worded letter from an attorney about this might be worth a few hundred bucks in feeling better.
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Lydia
Thanks for the concern – and kind words…
NOT many escape a broken heart…
The loss of all things, family, friends, finances, has a benefit… 🙂
Had NO place else to go – but – To Go To Jesus…
And turns out – Jesus is the best – Even with ALL the Pain and Tears…
These verses became real to me – Thank You Jesus
I am weary with my groaning;
all the night make I my bed to swim;
I water my couch with my tears.
Psalm 6:6 KJV
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss
for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:
for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,
and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:8 KJV
When my father and my mother forsake me,
then the LORD will take me up.
Psalm 27:10 KJV
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Amen, Amos, Amen.
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Forget ““pastoral confidentiality” — how about plain old confidentiality?
“A gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy person keeps a secret.” — Proverbs:11:13
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Obviously the pastor’s behavior is base act of treachery, by no means improved by being slathered with religious bullshit. “They rob widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers.” I won’t bother here assaying this dookie in detail. For now, that’s what it is.
This is how the world works, so as one who deals with the same kind of people in school district offices, I offer these observations.
Sheldon knew going in there that this pastor was a shill for his parents, an apologist for their injustice, and an excellent rationalizer of injustice in general, which is why he was waving them goodbye. He got in trouble by ignoring what he knew, expecting honest dealing from a guy that he knew on the best evidence couldn’t be trusted for that.
This happens a lot when we’ve been abused – we keep trying to get what we need from those that have denied it, since they’re supposed to provide it, and end up this way looking for love in all the wrong places. It’s routine. It happens to all of us, but we have to repent of it, because it really wrecks our lives. You can’t fix mercury poisoning by moving downwind from a coal-burning power plant and hawking the utility to convert it to natural gas.
As 2 Samuel 23:6-7 says, you have to go to these people “armed with iron and the shaft of a spear.” You don’t incite them needlessly, but you sure don’t roll over and offer your throat either. You state your business, as though you’re answering opposing counsel’s questions at a deposition, and you get out of there. You follow it up with an email stating what was said in the conversation.
“An Attorney” offered good advice. I don’t know this area of the law that well, and I don’t know the jurisdiction, and I don’t know the facts in detail, so I can’t say anything very specific. But there could be claims for defamation, intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress, and violations of specific statutes regarding clergy confidentiality in that jurisdiction. So Sheldon should get some advice from a few attorneys and pick one.
Their defense is their need to obey the Bible. You have to disarm that, because courts are loath to interfere in religious disputes, and the community that would provide a jury is apt to be hostile to an attack on religion. So you’ll have to show that religious belief and practice is not at issue here – that such claims are a pretext for malice and retaliation that the “pastor’s” Bible actually forbids.
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Sheldon, my heart goes out to you. What happened was wrong, wrong, wrong! There was nothing “Biblical” about what he did to you. Please know that you have several here who are willing to support and love you!
An Attorney gave some good advice if you’re wanting to go that direction.
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“The loss of all things, family, friends, finances, has a benefit… 🙂
Had NO place else to go – but – To Go To Jesus…
And turns out – Jesus is the best – Even with ALL the Pain and Tears…
”
I know the feeling quite well and concur. The real Jesus, that is. Not the fake plastic one or the “lesser god” Jesus that are so often taught from stages.
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“Was the pastor within his right to disclose personal information to the church body?
Is it ever appropriate to share personal information to the church body?”
The Wartburg Watch covered this topic a few years ago. http://tinyurl.com/ozbzwnu
This quote was taken from another article linked there: “Here is a thoughtful article on the subject. Pastoral Confidentiality: An Ethical and Legal Responsibility by David Middlebrook. The following four quotes come from this article.
Pastoral confidentiality is both a moral and legal obligation
“In recent years, however, people have brought an increased number of lawsuits against pastors for invasion of privacy and other tort claims arising out of the disclosure of confidential information by a pastor or other church official. The result of these suits has brought recognition that the obligation to maintain confidentiality is not only a moral obligation, but also often a legal one.” ”
It’s interesting that an unethical “pastor” will play either side of the fence with this issue. Either they divulge info as opportunity to gossip, or they cover for pedophiles by claiming “penitent-clergy privilege.” http://tinyurl.com/79q8kue
I guess it boils down to “your mileage may vary” (YMMV). A caring pastor is going to care for sheep and do his best not to harm. But, there sure are a lot of losers out there.
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“I don’t believe in “pastoral confidentiality” in the first place.”
Well, it gets a bit complicated but to begin with I don’t subscribe to the typical understanding of “pastor” as an office or position within an institution. I don’t think the ecclesia is an “institution” at all. So that is foundational to me. Pastoring is a function to me and I think there can be quite a few in any gathering who “pastor” others. It is a temporal thing as a true “pastor” would want the one they pastor to grow past them. They would not want “position” or power in the relationship.
When we turn pastor into an office with a pecking order/caste system Christianity then the act of expecting “confidentiality” of the one with a title we misunderstand naturally goes with that territory. I reject the territory. I don’t even see such an expectation in the NT. Confess your sins to one another is the closest we come. Unless one can show me differently in context and make a case for “pastoral confidentiality”.
To me, sharing a confidentiality with another believer is more of a personal relationship over time where I would make the decision to trust them. How many people know their institutional pastor that well anymore? They are usually so “set apart” that is an impossible expectation. I would not expect confidentiality simply because someone has a man- conferred- title in an institution called church. You have no idea how glad I am I kept my mouth shut in many a mega staff meeting and small group. For some reason the words of my late mother kept coming back to me on this one but not other things, sadly. I am grateful now because it could have been much worse. I hope more folks will realize church is not really a safe place for such openess and confession.
On the other hand, people pay professionals for confidentiality such as attorneys and therapists. I would trust them more because they stand to lose licenses or public trust. In the “church”, breaking confidentiality is often painted as pious and holy using wrong interpretations. I have even seen confidentialities broken during “prayer requests” which is about as low as one can go.
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I had thought that a minister could only be held to confidentiality legally is in the case of criminial trials, “clergy privilege” as it is known, I had never heard of a minister being legally bound to secrecy in other ways. I’m in Illinois if anyone can provide information to that effect.
I’m not quite sure really the full extent of what he revealed, but it sounded like he had at the very least leaked details such as the town that my Unitarian church is in, which I had told him not to, because with the abuse situation ongoing at the time, I did not want my whereabouts on any given day to be known to the public.
I had wanted to consult with a lawyer to see if I could enlist their help in sending a notice to them that they are no longer to contact me (maybe seeing that if it is from a lawyer will sufficently scare him, churches hate lawsuits).
He has tried to visit me at home multiple times while I was at work, leaving notes and he did this again yesterday, I still have them, and have taken pictures of them as well.
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Sheldon, I am so sorry you had to deal with this irresponsible “pastor”. Did he even go to seminary? I am sure that pastors are taught ethical and moral responsibility to maintain confidentiality while in seminary. In fact, unless there are circumstances that involve the threat of suicide, homicide or child abuse, pastors are required to keep their mouths shut! It seems some pastors treat “their” church as their own personal kingdom and they rule however they see fit. I am glad you have found a place where you feel “safe” and hopefully nurtured. I encourage you to stay where you are, allow yourself to heal around supportive friends and let your curiosity about the world around you help you expand your possibilities. In time, you may be wooed back to God. Not the noxious, abusive god of your childhood, but our loving Creator, who never stops pursuing us! Thank you for sharing your story. Much love-Ann
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Julie Anne, whatever Lydia meant when she expressed agreement with my unbelief in “pastoral confidentiality”, what I had in mind is the woman who used to telephone me at unsocial times such as four in the morning several times a week. Her conversations would often begin by telling me that she had some news for me, but wanted me to promise to keep the news secret before she told me the news. I was never willing to make that promise. Eventually, I used to pick up the phone and say, “Is that Linda, phoning me to tell me that she has a secret that she won’t tell me, because I don’t do “confidentiality”? How can one predict whether one *ought* to keep information secret, *before* one knows what that information is? To ask for absolute confidentiality is a thoroughly unreasonable demand.
What this young man did (the same basic facts, but now presented with the opposite spin, for the sake of argument) was secretly to tell one of the other members of his church, an office-bearer with a pastoral ministry, that he was resigning from the church, that he was abandoning the Christian faith, and that his parents, presumably also members of the same church, were lifelong, habitual criminals. He demanded that the person in whom he had “confided” all this shocking information, including the child abuse and criminal assault allegations, should either take no action in response to his revelations, including not confronting the allegedly criminal parents with the allegations against them (hardly realistic, or safe), or that any action he took, he should decide upon all on his own, without telling another soul the secret information on which he was basing his decision.
The young man proceeded to publish on the internet anyway everything he had told the target of his disruptive manoeuvre. He pilloried the fellow church-member in whom he had “confided”, for not carrying such an awful burden alone, but consulting others as to how he ought to react to the former church member dropping such a bombshell. You cannot complain when pastors are secretive and autocratic and unaccountable, and also complain just as loudly when they practise team ministry, taking counsel from their peers. That’s making them “damned if they do, damned if they don’t”.
Now, I’m not saying that the spin I have put on the same basic facts is a *good* spin, whilst the opposite spin put on the same facts by the young man himself is a *bad* spin. I am simply trying to show that there are two extreme ways of looking at the basic facts, and doubtless numerous intermediate ways of looking at the facts, in which some fault is found on both sides.
If, as An Attorney tells us, there some states in the USA that have laws that make it a tort for one person of faith not to keep secret everything another person formerly of the same faith tells him if that is what the ex-believer wants, then I consider that to be an unwarranted interference of the state in religion, and a violation of the right to freedom of speech.
Basically, nobody is intrinsically more important than anybody else. (Equality is part of my “tao”, at least.). In practice, certain members of a church do tend to have more opportunity to do good or harm than others, and those appointed as “pastors” are good examples. But, in the eyes of the secular law, why should a whole raft of new duties and potential legal liabillities descend upon an ordinary John Doe, who hasn’t taken a job with the NSA, but is simply serving the church of which he is a member in a particular role? I don’t think that we should think of “pastors” as being that special, in that sort of way. Do you?
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All I had stated that he should share with the congregation was that I was resigning membership due to the fact that my beliefs have changed, period.
He keeps reffering to me as “gone astray” (how condscending), and more disturbingly, his tone implies that he still thinks he is my spiritual leader.
I resigned my membership in a certified l letter (which the congregation voted to accept, by the way), and stated in it that “I renounce all formal ties to (church name) and the Southern Baptist Convention as a whole”
Couldn’t be more clear than that.
I also stated to him that day that even if I could return to Christianity, which is highly doubtful at this point, that I most definitely could not return to a denomination as conservative as the SBC, and could most definitely not return to that church, yet he keeps chasing me around , hoping to persuade me to come back.
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Sheesh Sheldon! It sounds like he is harassing you…in the Name of Jesus, of course. You do have a right to be left alone. Please talk to an attorney. Perhaps a legal letter will put an end to it as it clearly lays out you are not a member anymore. Is he claiming you cannot leave without elder permission or something like that? Did you sign any sort of membership covenant?
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Ann: Not only has he been to seminary, he has a PhD in church history.
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Sheldon,
I am so sorry you were hurt. You could probably get a restraining order against him.
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Sheldon – This dude is harassing you. It seems like you should be able to send a cease and desist letter to him (there are sites online to show you how to do this and make it sound all legalese or perhaps I can ask one of my atty friends how to word it for you).
How about this – send him a very strongly worded letter to back off. Send cc: to your local police station. That might help him to back off.
The pastor used the word “resigned” in reference to Sheldon canceling his membership, so I don’t think this is a covenant agreement. It seems this is just a bully pastor who can’t stand the idea of someone leaving his pen. Also, there is no mention in the pastor’s e-mail of church discipline which would again make it seem that the pastor is trying to have a spiritual/emotional “hold” on Sheldon. It’s just plain bully behavior.
Another option is to go public like I did – – but that’s a whole “nuther” can of worms. Feel free to e-mail me, Sheldon, if you want to discuss this further.
My dander is rising just typing this. This is what Chuck O’Neal did – – hounded me worse after we left than when we were there. Good grief, he doesn’t even like me, you’d think he’d want to wipe his hands clean, but nooooooooooooooo.
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He has a PhD in Pastor Bullying. I have another bull word I want to say about that.
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Wow, Sheldon. That “pastor’s” behavior sounds like stalking. That’s just flat creepy.
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Perhaps a PhD in church history from SBTS? They have bought into the Magisterial Reformed position of a church/state mentality that you cannot leave the “local church” institution without elder approval. It is wrecking havoc all over my city in SBC churches.
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I was a member of SBC churches for over 40 years, and have been unable to worship in any church since before the reformed (new calvinists) infiltrated and commandeered control of the SBC.
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John A:
You are doing it again-blaming the victim. IMO instead of writing the dissertations you write, just put it in one sentence–“I blame this young man for what happened to him.”
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Tom, There is also an attitude of “you are stupid for trusting Christians”. Ok. Well DUH. Now we know. :o)
Lock up the children and hide the silver, the Christians are coming over.
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John, in this country, pastors are considered to be in an authority position. They are seen as trained professionals who have certain responsibilities to their congregation. One of which is confidentiality. And it goes one way. If I tell my pastor something in confidence- he is not to reveal it. What I do with the info is irrelevant. I can broadcast it on CNN, because it is my right to do what I want with it. The pastor however, much like anyone who is in a counseling position of authority, doesn’t have the ethical right to share it. It does not matter how you view the “church”. Legally, in this country, there are legal standards certain professionals must follow (psychiatrists, psychologists, attorneys, doctors, and pastoral counselors). Unless the counselee gives written permission, it is illegal to break confidentiality. Unfortunately some churches ( who use nouthetic counseling) , require their members to sign a vague release allowing a pastor-elder-counselor to be able to “share” info with another “relevant” member if needed. It all boils down control. Whoever controls the flow of information holds the power. John, it doesn’t matter what you personally think about what the church should look like. As it stands today, if a pastor breaks confidentiality without written permission, he is breaking the law and abusing his power. Sheldon, you expected the pastor to act in an honorable manner, and he failed you. For that I am sorry.
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@ Tom
“I blame this young man for what happened to him” is not a précis of what I said. The middle passage of my quite long explanation as to why I don’t believe in “pastoral confidentiality”, was a thought experiment. I asked myself the question whether and how it might be possible for somebody to defend the pastor, and blame the young man. It is perfectly possible to spin the facts I read that way too, as I did, “for the sake of argument”. That was my point.
We simply shouldn’t respond credulously every time somebody presents himself as a victim, and another as the perpetrator, backed up by facts that can equally be argued the other way round. If we took that approach, and the church had fired the pastor for breaking the “confidentiality”, and he then complained to us about that “spiritual abuse”, we’d automatically take his side, and you’d be accusing anybody who stuck up for the young man of blaming the victim!
“The first person to speak in court always seems right until his opponent begins to question him.” [Proverbs 18:17, GNT]
Besides, what do you mean by “again”?
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John A:
I truly see you for what you are. As sincerely as I can say it–have a good life.
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John, read the facts. It is not in dispute that the pastor broke confidentiality. He even made excuses as to why he told the parents and congregation. You are going down some rabbit trail. I assumed you didn’t know the laws in our country about confidentiality and pastors. i see I was wrong, you are just trying to derail this blog and start an argument. For the sake of this situation, it does not matter if the young man’s background story adds up or not. The point is that confidentiality was broken and that is unethical and illegal. The pastor has no legitimate excuse to break the law. Stick to the subject.
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“The first person to speak in court always seems right until his opponent begins to question him.” [Proverbs 18:17, GNT]
Oh the irony. That was CJ Mahaney’s favorite verse. That is CJ Mahaney of the Shepherding cult, SGM. It was used to make the same sort of point.
“If we took that approach, and the church had fired the pastor for breaking the “confidentiality”, and he then complained to us about that “spiritual abuse”, we’d automatically take his side, and you’d be accusing anybody who stuck up for the young man of blaming the victim!”
Not at all. In fact, where I go if a pastor said anything to the congregation such as Sheldon has related, he most likely would not last long. It would be thought unseemly. We simply do not treat dissenters like that.
To argue your point, you first have to give us details about that particular church’s ecclesiology. To fire a pastor where I go would take a congregational majority vote. That is very rare these days in my neck of the woods where most churches are now authoritarian caste systems where the pastor is surrounded by elder yes men.
“We simply shouldn’t respond credulously every time somebody presents himself as a victim, and another as the perpetrator, backed up by facts that can equally be argued the other way round. ”
Often there are no “facts” to present. There is only a “he said/he said”. And this is especially true with child molestations.
And often there is a star chamber type of situation that makes it all impossible for the victim who is often called to the meeting alone and are blindsided. Part of blogging is to educate so they don’t fall for the star chamber treatment. Smart spiritual abusers never leave a paper trail and are very careful who they spiritually abuse. There are other strategies for well heeled dissenters. (If not for Brent Detwieler and the sgmwikileaks we would know nothing but what the victims of the child molestations and spiritual shepherding cult abused told us.)
Here is a tip: Never attend a church where you cannot see a detailed budget and vote on it every quarter in a business meeting –where you can ask specific questions and have input into how the money is spent. Never attend a church where staff salaries are a state secret. It is amazing how different those sorts of churches are.
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@ Ann
“in this country, pastors are considered to be in an authority position”
Not at law, surely? This drives a coach and horses through the establishment clause, whereby Congress shall make no establishing any religion.
Anyway, it sounds as though SSB ought to secede from the Union, if the Union considers pastors to have authority. 🙂
“Whoever controls the flow of information holds the power. John”
Exactly. Seldon’s former pastor broke free from the power that Seldon sought to wield over him, by demanding that this or that needed to be kept “in this room”.
There are always two sides to every dispute.
This said, Seldon seems to me to have rock solid grounds to complain of stalking, based upon what he has told us in this thread.
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You are wrong, John. If a congregation fired a pastor for breaking confidentiality, we would approve.
Years ago, I was friends with a young pastor (and his wife) who got in trouble for something similar. A couple in the church invited him and his wife for Saturday dinner. The couple’s two children had eaten early and gone to the movies, a movie that the parents had approved. The pastor disapproved of going to see ANY movie and the couple didn’t want to get into another discussion with him about it so when he asked where the kids were, they said out with friends and equivocated about where when he persisted. The next day, he told the congregation in a sermon on parental responsibility that he had visited with members of the church the night before and learned that they didn’t know where their children were. Of course a number of people knew who he meant and those who didn’t soon learned. The church board told him that his concerns should be shared with the parents directly and they should not have been used as a bad example even if he didn’t name them. The board was right.
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“in this country, pastors are considered to be in an authority position”
I would phrase it a bit differently more like a position of “responsibility” like teachers, doctors, counselors, etc.. And John I agree with you….
“This drives a coach and horses through the establishment clause, whereby Congress shall make no establishing any religion.”
And quite frankly the laws of “reporting” are different depending on the state. What I mean is reporting child abuse, molestations, etc. It is a reporting crime law to protect children in most states. Some states have mandatory reporting laws for counselors, teachers, pastors, etc. People who are in positions of “responsibility”.
There are also statute of limitations on such things from state to state. We saw that in the SGM case. Some states have none and others have a specific time frame after the child reaches 18 to report. And what do you do when it is a “network of churches” across state lines and each state has different laws concerning reporting but yet the policy of how to handle such things in the church come from the top? That is classic SGM problem.
I don’t think Sheldon’s confidentiality fits into this legal scenerio because he is an adult. His pastor is unethical and lacks Christian charity. However once Sheldon left (with certified letter sent) the pastor is putting himself in a legal quagmire for harassment. That is a whole other ballgame.
And what is weird is my state is not real clear on the law of mandatory reporting for pastors,. I think it will take a test case. The problem is that churches have become repositories for pedophiles, domestic abusers, etc to hang out in for credibility purposes. A police detective in our child crimes unit told me that peds love churches because people tend to give instant trust and then if they are ever caught the church does not want the bad publicity so they send them on to the next church.
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@ Ann
Well, I agree with Lydia, for the reasons I have given, and for the reasons she gave. I don’t believe in “pastoral confidentiality”. Discretion yes. Confidentiality no. Use your common sense. Think of the havoc that I could cause in my church, by telling the pastor that I had seen the assistant pastor coming out of a hotel bedroom with the pastor’s wife, and vice versa, but neither man being at liberty to mention his conversation with me to the other or to his own wife. If the law enables that, then the law (in your country) is a ass.
It’s time you wrought a separation of church and state in the so-called land of the free.
I worked out twenty years ago that “confidentiality” empowers dangerously manipulative people, because a right to confidentiality is charter for slanderers, or just those who crave attention. This might not be relevant to this particular case, but it is a good reason not to have the law you describe, whereby the state legislates as to how, lawfully, people are allowed to practise their beliefs. Thank God that, in the UK, pastors of churches I have attended, have openly said that they don’t do “confidentiality”. I don’t do confidentiality myself. I won’t put myself in that bondage.
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The worst part about this story is not the breach of confidence–it’s the fact that no one stood up for the victim. :(.
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Sheldon,
I finally got around to reading your post on “Confrontation.” I sympathize. My own mother is narcissistic. There are plenty of websites devoted to the topic of “narcissistic mothers” if you’re interested in googling it, and seeing if it matches your experience. Another personality disorder I’ve heard mentioned is “borderline.” Whatever it is you’re specifically dealing with, it is perfectly acceptable and even healthy to place boundaries and restrictions on that relationship. I can see how your former “pastor” siding with your parents is creating a massively toxic situation. The more of your story I read, the more amazed I am that you’re attending any kind of church at all. Kudos to you.
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Marsha, Thank God for churches like that. A few years back a pre teen in our church told her SS teacher about her father molesting her just a few nights before. It was a one time deal and she was totally distraught. He was not a member but her mother was a very popular member. The SS teacher did not go to the pastor. She told no one but called the authorities right after class. Then and only then she told the mother what she had done. The mother was not happy about and said he was only drunk and it would not happen again. (sigh)
The mother told others in the church because she thought it wrong the SS teacher called the authorities without consulting her first. She found no sympathy at all from anyone on that particular point but lots of offers of help. They begged her NOT to make her daughter go home while he was there and she finally gave in and allowed the daughter to stay with church friends. To sum up, he was convicted, served some time and left the country. Horrible situation.
That child’s church sent her a strong message: You are worthy and deserving of justice. No one on this earth has a right to get by with treating her so cruelly. Esp her dad. That is not love. And what is even more incredible was the pastor was one of the last to know about any of it. And he was fine with that. It was as it should be. And if it was a false accusation (which are rare) then the mom would be responsible for letting everyone else know about it.
What is being taught today is that the pastor/elders must be told first. If you read the fine print in most church policies you will find that in there. TGC came out with a sample policy around the time SGM scandalabra was in full swing and there it was plain as day: Tell the pastor/elders first. Let them make the decision if there is anything to report.
Well, no way!~! They make their living off the church and hate bad publicity that might hurt attracting new people and the flow of dollars.
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John, please do not insult our new guest, Sheldon, by misspelling his name which is clearly noted in the article and in his comments and many other comments.
At this blog, our default is to believe victims. I suppose there could be some who want to invent their own stories, but I do not believe this to be the case with Sheldon. One look at his pastor’s e-mail tells me there are big problems and Sheldon has suffered much.
If you are unable to defend victims or at least treat them with dignity and respect, this is not the blog for you. This is your official warning before I lug out the big ol’ SSB dog house.
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“Thank God that, in the UK, pastors of churches I have attended, have openly said that they don’t do “confidentiality”. I don’t do confidentiality myself. I won’t put myself in that bondage”
Are Catholic confessions considered legally confidential in your country? (Remember I pointed out position of responsibilty for mandatory reporting of abuse, molestation, type of crimes)
Also, is anyone here aware of any cases where someone in a postion of responsiblity like a teacher, counselor, doctor did not report a crime and was convicted of it under their state law? I doubt it happens very often. I have never heard of one and I keep my ears perked for such things because mandatory reporters talk about this a lot.
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@ Sheldon
Is it really true what you say about yourself on the internet? That you have been a Roman Catholic, a Baptist, a AoG Pentecostalist, a Secret Atheist, a Unitarian, a Wiccan, a Homeschool Apostate, and a Closet Agnostic? “Seek and ye shall find.” Seek to know the one who said that. Seek him. Seeking isn’t like shopping, or shopping around. Think about the stone to “the unknown God” on Mars Hill, in Acts 17, maybe. “He is not far from any of us.”
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Wow! “Sheldon’s former pastor broke free from the power that Sheldon sought to wield over him, by demanding that this or that needed to be “kept in this room”.
John, I sure can’t figure out how you got from there to here. Here is a broken person looking for advice and counsel from his pastor, and you cast that broken person as having the power?
My radar is sniffing something here I don’t like.
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“Also, is anyone here aware of any cases where someone in a postion of responsiblity like a teacher, counselor, doctor did not report a crime and was convicted of it under their state law?”
I recently read an article on this. http://tinyurl.com/qblm5hm
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John, Leave him alone. Just for once, show the unconditional love of Christ to him, please
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“My radar is sniffing something here I don’t like.”
Just give him enough rope . . .
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Woof, woof, here’s the dog house. John is now in time out. You can comment, John, but I want to see them first. We do not badger victims here, John. We show them love and support.
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Bringing up the point that Sheldon has shopped around should not be a surprise. When you are in such a controlling environment, with no grace, little love, you have a distorted idea of what true Christianity is and you of course want to find the truth. Sheldon’s response is perfectly appropriate, but it’s a lot easier for those who know all the answers to shame him. We don’t do that here.
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Thanks BTDT. Shows how hard it is to enforce, does it not? Now pediatricians in my state are required to check a box that they asked each child (of a certain age) they are treating, specific questions. They are also required to go through training on the subject.
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“Sheldon’s response is perfectly appropriate, ”
You bet it is. And healthy. There are too many “Christians” out there who are too insecure in their faith to walk along side someone who has been through hell in what passes for Christendom and has doubts. Throwing the “book” at him is ridiculous. A “book” cannot love him.
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In California church officials are mandated reporters as well as teachers and doctors. This week a civil grand jury report came out recommending that even school volunteers become mandated reporters. That must mean room mothers, library assistants etc,etc.
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For clarification, since John brought it up, I was in a private school run by an Independent Fundamental Baptist church from kindergarten to 5th grade.
From the time of my birth until about 11? years old my family was in an Assembly of God church (even during the time I was in that IFB ran school).
From about 12 years old to this past December, I was in a Southern Baptist church, the very one ran by the pastor reffered to here.
During the last 4 years of that time, I had to keep quiet losing my faith in Christianity due to the abuse from my family, they never knew until I resigned my membership at the church. I had to keep it quiet, because I knew the repercussions would be quite if I was found out.
Today, I suppose you could call me agnostic, but I have found a good sense of community and acceptance within the Unitarian Universalist organization.
At no point have I been a Wiccan it Catholic in my lifetime. That misunderstanding probably came from John finding some of my guest writing at My Secret Atheist Blog, a site ran by Sean McGuire, aka “Godless Poutine”, a writer from Montreal.
He was raised in an extreme anti- Second Vatican Council Catholic family, converted to Wicca as an adult, and then later became am atheist.
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BTDT: I sometimes call her “Mrs. Sociopath” on my blog, it’s more fitting than calling her my mother in any way…..
Blocking someone in a room when they try to leave home as a 21 year old adult, threatening them with violence to get them to stay put, and telling them they would deserve it if they were beaten?
What else would you call them?
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I’d call it what it is. Abusive, illegal, criminal and unconscionable.
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As a pastor I can tell you that when ANYONE comes to talk to me, member or not, I am held to confidentiality. My ordination doesn’t make me the pastor of A church (meaning congregation), it makes me a pastor of THE church (meaning the “whole” church). I am pastor to anyone who wants to talk to me in that role. It has nothing to do with how I judge the other person’s faith, it has to do with ME and my integrity in the office of pastor.
As far as a member going astray, this pastor took the EASY WAY OUT. This Bible passage, which also guides my denomination, refers to those who flaunt sin and destruction in the congregation, not those who disagree with theology or even those who want to leave.
The Bible (Jesus himself) also states that if anyone causes another to sin ex. driving someone to leave the church because of abuse they suffered (not that I think that’s sin, but this pastor obviously thinks leaving is sin), then it would be better for a millstone to be hung around their neck and thrown into the sea (Matthew 18:6). I might think this pastor should have himself fitted for a millstone necklace for perhaps driving Sheldon away for good, rather than Sheldon being judged…
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Welcome to the club, Sheldon. My former pastor takes quotes from my readers and attributes them to me. He takes guest posts and even when I put up a disclaimer that these thoughts represent the guest poster, he still says they are mine. Sometimes you just can’t win.
Thanks for clearing up the misinformation, though. I’d rather see it cleared up then have it continue on.
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kidnapping, threatening, harassment – I don’t know all the legal terms, but to be held against your will is certainly illegal.
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Thank you, Lisa – those are good words!
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John – I conferred with someone else because I wanted a 2nd opinion. I have decided to keep your comment on mandatory reporters in moderation. It doesn’t fit well in this thread because this thread is about Sheldon, his situation, confidentiality, how to treat someone who has voluntarily resigned, etc.
I think I will save your comment, though, because it has merit on the topic of mandatory reporters that would be good to debate, but it’s too sensitive to post here.
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“Blocking someone in a room when they try to leave home as a 21 year old adult, threatening them with violence to get them to stay put, and telling them they would deserve it if they were beaten?”
I was just reading that story, Sheldon. Julie Anne is right. Treating an adult like this does cross some legal boundaries.
Anyone looking for it can find the guest post here: http://tinyurl.com/lvb9z59
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Sheldon, I am so very sorry about all this.
I had read of your story before at your blog, or on some other site. I’m sorry people at your church have mistreated you, that your parents have mistreated you.
I had depression for many years, so I can relate to you on that. Many Christians do not understand depression and are not sympathetic about it… many ignorantly believe all you have to do is pray it away, or have more faith, or some other spiritual sounding response.
I hope the people at your former church stop hounding you.
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That John Allman guy is still hanging around here? He reminds me of Seneca at TWW blog, very tone deaf and insensitive to other people’s feelings and problems, always wanting to take on the devil’s advocate position, etc.
Julie Anne, if you made a new blog post tomorrow arguing that beating puppies to death is evil, Mr. Allman would probably take the opposing position on that just because.
If you say it’s black, he’ll say it’s white, and if you say it’s day, he’ll say it’s night. I find these sorts of folks tiresome.
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Update: I have added this photo of the note Sheldon received from his former pastor yesterday. It is at the bottom of the article.
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I make it a rule not to discuss personal issues / feelings or struggles in faith communities. It is just not an option.
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@JohnA:
BUZZWORD BINGO!
Next time in English instead of Christianese?
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@Lydia:
But then how can John parade his Spiritual and Moral Superiority before all us Lukewarm Apostates? It’s the Zero Sum Game; for John to be Exalted in his Christianese Bibleness, Sheldon and all the rest of us here at SSB have to be crushed down.
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Ahhhhh, waitingforthetrumpet2, John Piper’s influence sounds like it has swept the whole SBC.
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John Allman, I will remind you of a verse from a famous passage: “If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
You possibly think the most pertinent part of this passage is: “Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth”, because legalists often insist that it IS love to announce to people (and especially those they don’t know) that they see them sinning. But this insistence erases what immediately follows: “It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.” Thus the only love in such a situation is the legalist “loving” his righteousness at the expense of others.
You seem to think that there should be little expectation of confidentiality when asked for and agreed to. This reeks of lack of respect (protection, trust, hope, perseverance = love). People think this way when they believe humans to be less important than the letter of the law. This idea is directly contrary to the above passage, as well as contrary to what Christ taught about law.
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(This is part two of a comment. First part is in moderation)
John Allman, when confidentiality is asked for and not denied, but later broken, a betrayal has occurred. I suspect that this pastor senses this, at some level, because he repeatedly tries to defend himself while he stalks Sheldon.
Plus, a professional counselor of any sort (and a pastor is designated as such) can ethically break a confidence only when it reveals a broken (or potential for breaking, as in pending suicide) civil law. If Sheldon’s former pastor had done his job, he would have reported to the police the awful abuse that Sheldon received, except for the fact that Sheldon has acquired agency, being now an adult. Yet relational ethics require that the pastor would have offered that kind of support.
Obeying civil law shows no breakdown of separation between church/state, unless you believe that church members are not citizens.
Lastly, you repeatedly presume that we’ve not thought about the “other side” of issues. This can only be because you don’t know us while being biased against us. Thus you’ve wasted much of your own time/effort.
It has become obvious to me that you are not a Christian (not my brother), since you persist in relishing self-righteousness and judgmentalism. You lack evidence of the Holy Spirit. I hope you will someday discover our God-who-is-love. As it stands, your mindless cruelty is worse than that of many non-believers I’ve known, and any further communication from me will be only to call you out for it.
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@ Sheldon
“At no point have I been a Wiccan it Catholic in my lifetime. That misunderstanding probably came from John finding some of my guest writing at My Secret Atheist Blog”
Yes, that is the source. I did wonder, which is why I posed a question to you, rather than making a statement about you. My question appears to have been misinterpreted as something unfriendly. Thanks for not taking it that way yourself. (I didn’t think you would,judging by your robust style of writing elsewhere.) And thank you for the clarification.
I am sorry about your uncomfortable past. I am also a survivor of abuse. However, the abuse I suffered, and my recovery from it, is not of interest to anybody here, because my abuse wasn’t perpetrated by church leaders, or family members, and my testimony is of how the Lord used church people to help me to recover from abuse. My story therefore doesn’t fit in here.
I am impressed that you are able to go public about past abuse whilst you are still young. It took me almost fifty years before I spoke out. The same goes for others, here and elsewhere.
You appear to have the makings of a very good harassment case against the pastor, if he doesn’t respect you wishes to be left alone. You should ask him to stop, in writing, mentioning this.
It got me put into the dog house mentioning this bit of “Christianese”, but the promise of Christ, “seek and you shall find”, is one of sacred sound bites that I have found most helpful of all myself.
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Peter (12.11:30am), I agree with most of your comment but take issue with your use of the idea of “repentance”.
When we get things wrong on a test in a class, should we repent of it? Likewise, when a person makes a mistake through confusion, not knowing how to apply what is being noticed, not having yet developed an understanding on how to act in a given situation, is that a sin for which repentance is required?
In the broadest sense, mistakes are sins, too, because they are the result of inadequate understanding, not being able to stay on top of overwhelming situations, etc. It’s important to recognize mistakes and to work towards fewer of them. But repentance is something strong and specific. It is remorse, contrition, self-reproach for doing deliberate wrong via omission or commission.
People become deeply wounded when not loved as children and they will not know how to proceed. They have no baseline of what is healthy and they are starved of affection/acceptance. This confusion and lack are the results of others’ sin.
The process of healing from others’ sin will include mistakes and dead-end alleys because that is the way we learn. This is also seen in the creative process and in academic/technical education. We try on ideas/actions that turn out to be incorrect. We practice. We slowly change through repetition.
The healing process doesn’t work when mistakes are met with remorse and contrition because it creates a “terror of error” which shuts down the process. Healing works when fed by hope and experimentation, underpinned by the understanding that we are limited creatures who will gladly shed whatever goes awry as we keep our eyes on the goal.
Those wounded by abuse need the formal process of repentance only when they do to others the same evil that was done to them. (Of course there are other sins that accompany all humans, depending on their character, etc, but I speak here of the healing process itself.)
I think the recent one-size-fits-all approach to sin is fall-out from nouthethic counseling and the wretched application of ideas of depravity via the Calvinistas. It is poorly considered and causes damage.
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You’re wrong, John. No one here, that I can see, is “out to get” churches or church leaders. On this thread alone, Marsha and Lydia have mentioned stories in which congregations, when confronted with abuse, did the right thing and supported those who were victims.
It would be of great interest to me, to know how your brothers and sisters strengthened and encouraged you in your suffering, the way family is supposed to do. In the words of an Anne Murray song, “We sure could use a little good news today.”
Please consider sharing your story with Julie Anne privately, and with us. I leave that up to you.
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How can you be so sure your story of abuse is not of interest here, John? I was remarking to a friend yesterday how interesting it was that people were so quick to show kindness and thoughtful words to Sheldon, one comment after another. That was beautiful and what real Christianity is about.
People here genuinely care about those who have been abused, in and out of church, John.
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Serving and I live many miles from each other and in different countries, but our brains were connected in similar thought. 🙂
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Sheldon said, “I had thought that a minister could only be held to confidentiality legally is in the case of criminial trials, “clergy privilege” as it is known, I had never heard of a minister being legally bound to secrecy in other ways. I’m in Illinois if anyone can provide information to that effect.”
I’ve been trying to find more info in this regard. Alas, I am not a lawyer, so my input may be of little value. Wikipedia has some interesting quotes on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest%E2%80%93penitent_privilege
“A pastor has a duty to hold in confidence any information obtained during a counseling session. A pastor who violates this trust might be on the losing end of a suit for an invasion of privacy or defamation.[5]”
However, this does seem to vary by state.
http://scholar.valpo.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2062&context=vulr
In Texas and five other states, there is no such privilege. Residents of those states may wish to avoid confiding in their minister. 🙂
However, it seems that Illinois is one state that has a broad application of “clergy privilege.”
“Suffice it to say that they all (1) broaden the privilege to cover more than confessions and (2) either eliminate the course-of-discipline test or clearly relate it to a duty on the part of a clergyman to counsel with his parishioners and to keep the communications secret.”
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Ach, I completely understand moderation but if I’d known what John had said in his last, I wouldn’t have gone whole-hog on mine. So John, I ask that you keep my comments on hold, not the specifics re legalism but the conclusion, since you’ve divulged more of yourself.
Abuse is the same kind of rotten wherever it occurs. It looks the same in and out of the church, is done for the same horrid reasons, and the damage is the same, except that inside the church God is added as another layer.
As a fellow recipient, I understand how long it takes to recover, and how many twists/turns it takes. I gladly offer you the patience I’ve had to learn towards myself.
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Now I don’t make sense because what I wrote to John, and he didn’t see, was before he made comment to Sheldon. Still, I gladly reserve my conclusions.
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Dear Patrice,
Though I understand your frustration with John A., I honestly think you went too far in the last paragraph of your comment to him.
I think John’s writing style is hopelessly hard to follow and his attitude infuriating. I find him quite hard to like, or to figure out. But he says that he’s a Christian, and I’m not going to question that. It’s not my place to doubt his salvation. That’s been done to Julie Anne too many times, and I’m not keen to see it done to anyone else.
Please understand, Patrice. I’m just trying to be as fair to him as I can.
G’night, all. Bedtime.
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The picture of the note left by the pastor send a shiver up my spine. I don’t think I could handle not knowing when this guy was going to drop by uninvited to “help me.”. My gut reaction, after all of the harassing that has already occurred, would be to file a restraining order. That would hopefully send a very strong signal about being left alone.
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Ah, sorry Patrice. I just saw your most recent comments (after I hit Enter and the page refreshed).
Blogs are a strange form of communication, indeed…
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John – I concur with Julie Anne. I think that you would find people here willing to listen to anyone who has experienced any sort of abuse.
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BTDT, my understanding also is that it varies from state to state. But wherever/whatever, it’s rotten when those who counsel inside the church maintain shabbier ethics than those outside.
Whether through civil law or merely professional covenants, confidentiality is to ensure protection for the individual seeking advice about problems, someone who has made him/her self vulnerable by seeking help.
When professionals who call themselves Christians do not readily recognize this, even to easily breaking such a basic ethical principle, I question their understanding of the meaning of their faith.
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Serving, yah, comment threads are very strange forms of communication. Good thing they keep plodding along so one can correct one’s self.
Sleep well!
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Patrice,
I’m in complete agreement with you as far as the ethical angle. It was a moral violation. Sheldon asked (and I was curious myself) whether there was some legal violation. Seems like that depends.
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Admin note: While I was asleep on the West Coast, comments came in and got stuck in moderation because of key words that were used in the comments. As I read through and released them, it then put those comments in the spot they originally would have been placed (based on the time they commented). However, that messed up the flow of “normal communicate” and caused things to be said without having full information. I apologize for that. Tensions rose and strong words were said because of that. Please carefully read through the comments. I think you will see that things ironed out okay, but a lot of this was due to comments in moderation. I’ll see if I can “lighten” the key word situation.
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Lisaleben said, ” This Bible passage, which also guides my denomination, refers to those who flaunt sin and destruction in the congregation, not those who disagree with theology or even those who want to leave.
The Bible (Jesus himself) also states that if anyone causes another to sin ex. driving someone to leave the church because of abuse they suffered (not that I think that’s sin, but this pastor obviously thinks leaving is sin), then it would be better for a millstone to be hung around their neck and thrown into the sea (Matthew 18:6).”
Exactly. Whether as individuals or groups of believers, we should take sin seriously, and to do that we first need to differentiate sin from mere disagreement. Sin is what the parents and “pastor” did.
We foment and enable the covering of the real sins by perpetuating the “church as club or business” model, with its CEO “pastor”, middle-management “deacons”, and laws, bylaws, and state sanctions. True fellowship means sharing lives just as you would with any other good friends. But even then, friends and family can be the worst perpetrators of coverups and abuse, as was the case here.
So what it really boils down to is the salvation and walk of every individual who claims to follow Christ. Salvation is a reconciliation with God, out of gratitude for Jesus’ sacrifice. And anyone claiming to have this relationship does not live in sin. Ergo, whoever lives in sin throws serious doubt upon their claims to be saved. Parents, siblings, relatives, pastors, or fellow believers who abuse and excuse have not learned even the most basic principles of the faith.
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JA, at admin note. I think it’s the nature/necessity of comment threads, not that you don’t keep a beautiful eye over yours. IMO, it’s useful to read through opinion/analysis, and that includes individuals retrieving pieces/parts as more info is revealed yah. It’s part of learning.
I’m learning what it might mean to stand against overtly unchristian approaches/ideologies done in God’s name. Via my dilatory ongoing conversation with Lydia about understanding enemies in the church, I’ve come to believe we need to take strong stands, yet we must also keep our eyes open and stay nimble. A work in progress. So we’ll see how it goes here.
I am grateful for your generosity towards my continuing development 😉
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Patrice – LOL it’s mutual. I’ve learned so much through you all – sometimes by my own mistakes, too.
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BTDT, yah, you know it. I repeat because, well, I suppose because it’s needed. So strange that it isn’t common understanding, especially in a community that bases itself on deep ethics.
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I have to say I’m amused at the irony of the assurances that John would be welcome to share his personal story of abuse here. John has not been treated graciously here. He has been treated with suspicion and rudeness. He has been judged and psychoanalyzed.
Does a newcomer have to go through an initiation rite when he is different “than the rest of us here”?
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Bonnie k, it’s always good to be amused, yes?
But I find it sad that you do not understand that a person who rides in on judgmentalism and preconceived bias will be offered grace when it’s discovered that it arises from past abuse.
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“I think the recent one-size-fits-all approach to sin is fall-out from nouthethic counseling and the wretched application of ideas of depravity via the Calvinistas. It is poorly considered and causes damage.”
Good point. Aspects of Nouthetic Counseling are inflitrating just about every aspect of Christianity. Just a tip for folks–I met a student of SBTS who told me they are changing the name of it there because……”people do not understand it”. I laughed and said, no they are changing the name because people are understanding it and rejecting it.
So watch out. It might be called something else in your neck of the woods. I forgot what she told me it was going to be called. I think it was Biblical Counseling or something like that. But this is a typical tactc: Change the name.
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“I have to say I’m amused at the irony of the assurances that John would be welcome to share his personal story of abuse here. John has not been treated graciously here. He has been treated with suspicion and rudeness. He has been judged and psychoanalyzed.
Does a newcomer have to go through an initiation rite when he is different “than the rest of us here”?”
It might be helpful to go back to the original thread where John introduced himself to the blog. The original assumptions basically went like this to some of our ears: Julie Anne bad. Tony Miano good. He came in with a howitzer when a pistol would have sufficed. John admitted on an earlier thread he found this place through google reader because he was following Tony’s free speech situation in Scotland.
The “initiation” rite on any blog depends on the commenter. It is good to read through a blog for a while before commenting. Get a feel for what is being discussed because posts tend to be a running narrative that leave out background discussed in earlier posts. I probably read here off and on for a year before commenting.
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