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This next story pains me. It’s a personal one. Parenting is very challenging. Homeschooling children has also been a challenge. When we began homeschooling our children, we chose to do so for a number of reasons. We wanted to have better oversight over the curricula our children were taught because we wanted to give them a solid Christian foundation.
with dinosaurs like this. (Source)
As typical Christian parents, we did not want them to have “worldly” influences. We got support at homeschool conventions, conferences. I spent time on the internet in e-mail groups, message boards, etc, and got support and information there. In the Christian homeschooling arena, Creationism was taught in the science curricula. Evolution was labeled as evil and we needed to protect our children from those false ideas.
Ken Ham spoke at the homeschooling circuit and we went to his seminars. Others echoed his ideas and if you were a Christian homeschooler, you very likely taught your children Young Earth Creationism (YEC), as this was the primary science taught in the available Christian homeschooling texts – at least that I saw in my circles. Science has never been my “thang.” I don’t need to know the process of how we got here. The Bible told me how we got here. I believed what it said and that settled the issue for me. I didn’t need to discuss it further. My husband, however, is an engineer. He is very interested in knowing the process of things. :::::ja yawns at the thought of such a thing::::: I can’t imagine him not wanting to know how things work. Engineers live and breathe processes. Teaching creationism was a perfect fit for my husband. He took the kids to creationism seminars over the years, bought quite a few creationist books about dinosaurs and the origins of the earth, and the kids soaked it up. I found our eldest daughter devouring the books just for fun. She was sold. It was a foundational issue for faith, just like Ken Ham always said. Here is a quote by Ken Ham to students at Bob Jones University:
“The majority of Christian colleges in this nation won’t take a stand on a literal Genesis, as you do here at Bob Jones University,” he said. And that compromise, according to Mr. Ham, is the very reason that some Christian young people are abandoning their faith. He said, “We have increasing numbers of people who have been led to doubt the history in the Bible, and so they don’t believe the Gospel based on that history.” (Source)
A couple of months ago, my older kids and I were at a restaurant and Hannah, 26 yrs old, shared with me a pivotal experience. I hadn’t heard this story before. Remember, science bores me. When she talked this time about science, I was not bored. I listened with great sadness and also understanding. It made sense to me. I asked Hannah if she would share her story here and she agreed. I do not agree with Ken Ham anymore. I hope my daughter’s story will open your eyes to another side of the story which Mr. Ham would not dare to admit. His intentions may be good in holding so strongly to the YEC teachings, but we cannot dismiss that his ministry and possibly livelihood depend upon it. I don’t care if people believe in Young Earth Creation or not. To me, it is not a salvation issue or gospel issue. But the YEC-only way of believing did not work for my daughter, it backfired. I think it’s important to take a closer look at this issue. Hannah’s story follows.
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My Experience with Young Earth
Creationism
by
Hannah Smith
While on a break between classes at the local community college, a previous homeschooled friend I knew from church and I were sitting at a table chatting in the main lobby. I honestly have no idea how the subject came up, but we were talking about YEC and evidences for it. I was trying to explain Carbon-14 dating (it’s not the easiest thing to break down off-the-cuff, but I was pretty sure I knew the very basic fundamentals of it in order to have it make sense to her. As I was trying to explain it, one of my classmates overheard our conversation and came over and joined the conversation. He very efficiently sliced-and-diced my YEC “points” and “evidence”, but since I felt I hadn’t brushed up on the subject in a year or two, I’d investigate it more in the light of the contradictions he’d brought to surface. I wanted to see if I could do more in-depth research on the topic and figure out if and how much of what he was saying could be verified and where the disconnect between our two viewpoints occurred.
So after I went home, I dug up our trusty creationism-is-true-sort-of books commonly found in good Bible-Believing Homeschooling YEC family’s libraries. After reading the articles and chapters, I did what my father always said to do and “checked the source” – probably more to see if there were books completely dedicated to the topic of Carbon-14 dating that I could look up in the local library. Flipping to the end of the book with the citations I was shocked that pretty much all of the sources for their proof was from other Christian YEC-believing books. So I quickly determined that they were just quoting what other people who believed similarly where saying, rather than going to scientific journals and scholarly articles written by secular authors and scientists. For example, take a look at the following excerpt taken from an article at Ken Ham’s Answers in Genesis site (Doesn’t Carbon-14 Dating Disprove the Bible?)
In 1997 an eight-year research project was started to investigate the age of the earth. The group was called the RATE group (Radioisotopes and the Age of The Earth). The team of scientists included:
- Larry Vardiman, PhD Atmospheric Science
- Russell Humphreys, PhD Physics
- Eugene Chaffin, PhD Physics
- John Baumgardner, PhD Geophysics
- Donald DeYoung, PhD Physics
- Steven Austin, PhD Geology
- Andrew Snelling, PhD Geology
- Steven Boyd, PhD Hebraic and Cognate Studies
That looks VERY impressive – every single person, a PhD. But they probably ALL have a vested interest in this – 3 of those 8 people have written books advocating YEC and you can find that information one simple mouse-click away from the article. Look at the sources quoted at the end of the article – they go back to other Christian Scientists with published books on the subject (the scientists above) – unless they are quoting the opposing viewpoints for comparison. I found this info out in about 1 minute while I was writing the first paragraph above, about the same amount of time it took me five and half years ago, when this originally occurred. This kind of circular reasoning raised (and honestly still raises) major red-flags for me from a logical and scientific standpoint. If they can’t find outside sources, how does them quoting from their friends make it true? This was the starting point of me doubting my faith. I never recovered from it.
** Related articles
- Young Earth Creationism, Ken Ham, The Creation Museum . . . and Dragons? (spiritualsoundingboard.com)
- Ken Ham: If You Criticize the Creation Museum for Not Teaching Science, You’re Just Intolerant Against Christians (patheos.com)
- Do Young-Earth Creationists Worship the Devil? (James F. McGrath)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
B4B,
Re: Yours of 12:14
Job, not doubt, would find you quite comforting. You know what I mean!
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My daughters have abandoned Jesus, but I know HE hasn’t abandoned them. YEC played a small part in their decision to leave the faith. What played a bigger part is how cruel & self righteous our ex pastor was. His Pharisaical attitude spread like a nasty virus through out the church. Sin sniffing, judgmentalism, being scolded into submission was rampant, perfection was the goal. Gee, does anyone really want to be beat up for being human on a regular basis? I understand why my girls ditched their faith, thanks to the mean spirited, self righteous, control freaks, can’t say I blame them. Jesus knows what was done to them and how He was misrepresented, and since He seeks the lost sheep, I have hope that He will restore their love for him in His way & in His time, just like He did for me.
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“… if being taught YEC cause one to kdepart the faith…”
Being taught YEC doesn’t cause one to leave the faith. Being taught that YEC is an essential Christian doctrine without which one cannot be a Christian, and later coming to the conclusion that YEC cannot be true can cause one to embark on a path which leads to a false choice – believe blindly in YEC and perhaps other non-essential doctrines or “leave” the faith.
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Nope, I didn’t make YEC a salvation issue. I said that belief in Scripture is a salvation issue.
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Oh, wait, it does look like I said YEC is a salvation issue. I was sloppy there. No, it isn’t, but if it reaches into essential doctrines, ie, your belief in Scripture, that is a huge concern. Sorry for the careless comment there.
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Question for B4B: Do you consider what is called Young Earth Creationism to be essential to the Christian faith?
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The Blble supports YEC…..did I say that already?
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marusha
JULY 11, 2013 @ 1:05 PM
Nope, I didn’t make YEC a salvation issue. I said that belief in Scripture is a salvation issue.
Would you like to be *very* specific as to *exactly* what you mean by “belief in Scripture”? Be very specific, because even though you have apologized for certain statements, you stated unequivocally that people that don’t agree with your interpretation of the Bible aren’t true Christians. You’re not fooling anyone trying to slip out of your earlier statements with dodging and weasel words.
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Marusha, I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I believe that its contents are completely binding on me, as a Christian. I believe that every Christian needs to have their life firmly rooted in the teachings of Scripture.
And I also believe that your interpretation of the book of Genesis is scientifically ignorant, not supported by sound exegesis, not shared by many of history’s greatest theologians and Bible scholars, not logically necessary to uphold any of the core tenets of Christianity, and incredibly harmful to many a young Christian.
But you know what? I don’t believe that your interpretation of Genesis, as filled to the brim with garbage as it may be, puts your salvation at risk. I think it’s entirely possible to be dead wrong about scientific issues and still love Jesus with all of your heart.
My hope and prayer for you is that, in the future, is that not only will you re-examine this issue with an open heart and an open mind, and not only will you see that all truth is God’s truth and there need not be any conflict between faith and “worldly science” (as you put it in a previous comment), but that you would also learn to extend Christian charity to those with whom you disagree. There’s simply no need to come onto a blog and question the salvation of people you’ve never met in real life because they think its silly to believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old…
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RMR,
My opinion isn’t the issue of this post, but having said that, salvation (eternal Life) rests solely on belief in Christ, while condemnation results from unbelief. Jesus said that.
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Read those comments agaain, I covered that.
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JA, The issue of why young people beginning to doubt their faith or considering walking away is the issue. that lack of spiritual grounding in the Word IS a great contributor to that. Sorry it’s not working. Maybe you need to research the issue a little. there are a LOT of folks that will tell you the same thing I have.
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If someone tells a young believer that belief in YEC is essential to their salvation, He’s lying. that same young believer might momentarily doubt their faith, however all that is necessary is opening a Bible and see what Jesus said about who has/has not eternal life, and what Paul taught about salvation by faith alone. We are all to examine what we are taught by what is written. To not do that is spiritual laziness.
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Born full of BS is basically claiming that you didn’t beat fundamentalism into your daughter’s head to the point of abdicating logic is why Hannah rejected the fundamentalist nonsense, JA. It’s pretty obvious that he’s doing nothing but trolling, and trying to belittle you and your life with your children.
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Scary
You said:
“If your daughter abandoned her faith in Jesus Christ over carbon-14 dating citations in a book, then it wasn’t there to start with.Don’t blame Ken Ham or marusha for your daughters lack of faith. Praying for your daughter.”
You are wrong. Many people have left the faith over this issue. This is just another talking point from AIG which wants to blame everything else except unproven “science” which sets itself up as the only “godly” option. They have kept many intelligent people out of the kingdom by this claim.
We need to care more for the people who are hurt than for our silly doctrinal fights. And that is what this is. A silly fight based on a particular view of Genesis.
Never forget that Galileo went to jail for believing the “unbiblical” scientific fact that the earth rotated around the sun as opposed to vice versa as believed and “proved” by the church of his day. They also took the Bible literally and they were wrong.
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For the church history buffs out there, the tenets drawn up by the fundamentalist movement in America are not unlike the formulation of creeds by the early church councils, in that they were all drawn up to articulate fundamental beliefs of our faith in order to combat error that was creeping in via false teachers. While belief in Christ is the essential matter at stake or our salvation, it naturally entails certain beliefs about Jesus Christ, His divinity, Virgin birth, etc. Like I said, for those interested in a bit of church history.
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True believer do not permanently walk away from their faith. Jesus said “I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.” If one has genuine faith that means eternal life. Never perish means never perish. How that happens is another matter, for a different conversation. The ONLY thing that keeps anyone out of the kingdom is their unbelief. See John 3:18
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For the church history buffs out there, the tenets drawn up by the fundamentalist movement in America are not unlike the formulation of creeds by the early church councils…
This statement is a blatant lie.
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Eric, if you can’t tells why you declare that, should you be making that false assertion? They are similar in principle, if you know your church history.
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Okay, I’ll chime in here as well.
Hannah ~ thank you for your story. I hope you hear what you need to hear in this discussion. I’m sorry for what you have and are going through, but I trust Jesus will see you through. He’s really not all that complicated ☺
I homeschooled all my kids with the Ken Ham AIG and other YEC material. Within the homeschool groups I belonged to, YEC was just assumed. I can’t remember a time where it was encouraged to study the other options out there. I was so surprised to find so many old earth Christians! That is just so tragic.
Once you do a little research, it’s pretty humbling I must say. I’ve now landed in the category similar to JA that it’s just not that important to get all worked up over. But that isn’t what you get from many YEC’ers.
After I realized all this YEC is not as grounded in science as it’s made out to be, I was left with a sense of betrayal.
I felt lied to and betrayed. For me, I could see a loss of belief because of the attitude portrayed that anything other than this is a lie. No, there are other options for believers to peruse. You are not in danger of hell fire for studying and leaning in another direction. And if you choose to believer the YEC version, great. Just don’t make anyone else out to be Bible illiterate that believes differently.
Thank you Gary W for this comment:
How much better it would have been if these teachers had simply said something to the effect that, “This is what we believe about creation, this is why we believe it, others disagree, but in the end, it just doesn’t matter. All that really matters is Jesus.”
Yes, Yes, Yes.
I wish it had been discussed this way.
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Born4Battle
JULY 11, 2013 @ 3:39 PM
Eric, if you can’t tells why you declare that, should you be making that false assertion? They are similar in principle, if you know your church history.
No, they’re not even similar in principle, HeWhoIsTooCowardlyToUseHisRealNameOnHisOwnBlog. You know that, but you’re still trying to deceive people with your fundamentalist lies. You don’t care one bit about people, all you care about is forcing people to agree with your hateful self-righteousness.
You’re not fooling anyone here with your tripe, especially not me, so just go crawl back under your rock, troll.
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“Eric, if you can’t tells why you declare that…
Is your reals names Toki Wartooth?
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B4B states, “the tenets drawn up by the fundamentalist movement in America are not unlike the formulation of creeds by the early church councils.” What, the fundamentalists has elevated their opinions to the status of the Apostles’ Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed, and so on? What overweening arrogance, what hubris! With thanks to Eric Fry, what a blatant lie!!
No wonder it isn’t possible to have a conversation with a fundamentalist. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil, black or white, my way or the highway; and the Gospel itself hinges on the fundamentalists’ opinions regarding every secondary and insignificant question. It would be frustrating if it weren’t so outrageously funny.
Still, I think maybe I’m seeing something useful. It seems to me that spiritual and other abusers tend to be guilty of black and white, binary thinking. Stand clear of anybody who thinks they are always right on any given question, that their way is the one true way! Their self-proclaimed “rightness” will justify every hateful practice in the promotion of their cause.
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A correction: I observed that the fundamentalists can be outrageously funny. However, there is nothing funny about the soul-destroying pain they inflict on people’s minds, hearts, emotions, spirits and even bodies, including especially the bodies of their very own children through excessive corporal discipline.
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Apparently there are some literacy issues going on here. All I tried to say is that there is a similarity between the development of the tenets of fundamentalism and the development of creeds in the early church. Both were formulated due to perceived error creeping into the church. The creeds of the early church and the tenets of fundamentalism were formulated to express what were considered basic b beliefs/tenets of our faith. I say that because of having done quite a bit of research. Then I just get called a liar by a couple of individuals who haven’t the intellectual fortitude to explain themselves. I’m a fundamentalist who expresses idea generated because of intensive research and study and you have the unmitigated gall to call me a liar without explanation and say you can’t have a conversation with fundamentalists? Give the intelligent people in the room a break.
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So B4B, what do you think about the circular citations issue raised by Hannah in the article?
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Gary W & Eric Fry- B4B triggers me something terrible. Thank You for standing up to his bully tactics. It was folks like him that broke me. And my daughters. And I suspect he wont do much for JA’s daughter Hannah either, other than confirm that the likes of him is why so many run from the gospel. No love, no mercy, no humility. ugh.
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Scary
You said:
“If your daughter abandoned her faith in Jesus Christ over carbon-14 dating citations in a book, then it wasn’t there to start with.Don’t blame Ken Ham or marusha for your daughters lack of faith. Praying for your daughter.”
1) From what I see, Julie Anne didn’t accuse Marusha of causing her daughter to lose her faith at any point. Am I missing something?
2) I think Hannah was bothered by the fact that the people pushing Young Earth Creationism in the book she was reading were trying to make less-than-credible sources seem legitimate/deliberately not adhering to the high level of scholarship one would expect of Ph.Ds, despite their claims to be good Christians who adhere to high ethical standards.
In other words her primary concern pertained to an integrity issue rather than an intellectual issue.
I do think that suddenly finding out that the Christian adults you looked up to were behaving badly/hoodwinking you is an understandable reason for starting to question one’s faith. The alternative to seeking to know the truth in the face of deceit, rather than just parroting what others have told you to believe, is sticking one’s head in the sand.
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As my mother said, I have a full-time job and was only just now able to read all the comments and respond. Here it goes!
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Dee – July 11, 2013 @ 6:10
“Many, many people point to the indoctrination into YEC as their beginning point to leaving the faith. One of the latest YEC talking points is “they do not leave over YEC, its something else.”(unrepentant sin, lack of humility, etc.). The reason for this latest defense is the increasing evidence that young people, when confronted with the reality of thoughtful science, believe that they have been lied to. Once they know they have been lied to in this area, they extrapolate to other statements of faith. Before you know it, Christianity is thrown on the trash heap along with Ken Ham.”
Dee, thank you so much for your kind words. You hit the nail on the head. You put it more succintly than I ever could.
Eric Fry -July 11, 2013 @6:18
“None of those things I listed are markers of true faith, they’re just the pet projects of some people. If they could be simply accepted as such, there wouldn’t be much of a problem, but they’re being used as tools of oppression to drive people to follow the vision of various people, rather than the vision of Christ. Christ gave us a few simple things to do for Him, things that are a light burden for a loving heart. By claiming that these lesser doctrines define “real Christians”, all that happens is heavy burdens are being thrown needlessly into people who shouldn’t have to carry such a load in the name of Christ.”
This is a key point. I applaud my mother for having the courage to start asking the “is this a salvic issue” questions. Growing up, my father was the spiritual leader, he was the one who taught us, my mother kept quiet about her thoughts (and I’m guessing her questions that she’s now able to voice on this blog). So I was raised with a very “it’s this way or hell” sort of mentality. Calvinism, YEC, Pro-Life, Anti-Homosexual – everything was stacked onto each other in this one big pyramid as all being crucial tenets to have. Any waivering on them signalled depravity and that one may be “of the world”.
Born4Battle -July 11, 2013@8:19
…”To more specifically get to the reason(s) why some youth depart from their faith, it’s a ‘grounding’ issue. They weren’t well grounded in the faith they professed. That would probably mean a lack of individual Bible reading and /or study, teaching from parents, or in a group venue of whatever sort you can name. At the root, however is still the issue of saving faith v. non-saving faith and God’s power to ‘keep’ whom he saves.”
I in no way want or think I’m able to respond to each of your comments, but I can tell you, that for 21 years of my life, there wasn’t anyone in my life who doubted my sincere Christian faith. I read my Bible every day (and not just for 5 minutes a day) I was at church more often than not, went to countless conventions and events where a very fundamentalist view of the Bible was taught. My dad is a staunch Calvinist (I suspect you are too), and all of us kids were continually quizzed on tenets of the faith, taught apologetics, and even regularly evangelized (not to mention the overseas missions trips). My dad was shocked when I came to him with my questions since he was confident that I had the faith I professed.
BeenThereDoneThat July 11, 2013 @9:09
Hannah,
Thank you for sharing your experience. We need to hear these stories. I am still shocked that some today are making YEC a litmus test of whether or not anyone can be considered a Christian. My father, a devout Southern Baptist, has believed in an old Earth his entire life. It was central to his career as a geophysicist. I can’t imagine someone telling him with a straight face that he is not really a Christian.
When we left our former church I boxed up (and stuck in the storage shed) hundreds of dollars worth of curricula that we were required to purchase from them. These last few posts on YEC have piqued my interest. I dug out the Creation book which is authored by Duane Gish. It’s written for kids, but still no references. Same with The Fossil Book by Gary and Mary Parker, and The Geology Book by Dr. John Morris. Very interesting. A year and a half ago I would have taught this to my kids without a second thought. Not exactly critical thinking, is it?
Thanks for your kind words BTDT. Now looking back, I wish I was raised in a home where I could question what my dad taught and not be felt like I was stupid for even thinking of such a question. I’m chuckling because I’m pretty sure that if my mother looked hard enough, the Duane Gish book might be found somewhere on her shelves… I recognized the author’s name once you wrote it out. 🙂
JoeJoe -July 11, 2013@9:53
“I think a better thing to say in regards to this is that they allowed in their mind for these things to be elevated so highly that they end up forgetting that Christianity is about Christ, nothing else. They focus on periphery issues and ignore Christ.”
Standing and applauding!
Scary -July 11, 2013 10:59
“If your daughter abandoned her faith in Jesus Christ over carbon-14 dating citations in a book, then it wasn’t there to start with.
Don’t blame Ken Ham or marusha for your daughters lack of faith. Praying for your daughter.”
Please don’t pray for me. Pray for yourself. You need it more. My mother wasn’t blaming Ken or Marusha. Don’t think you’re going to avoid me noticing that you went far around the topic just to be argumentative. “Logic, why don’t they teach logic in the schools?!” – Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe – C.S. Lewis
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Thanks for the comments and discussion everyone. I enjoy the exchanges and freedom of discussion (even if some of the comments make me wince). Just to summarize, YEC-doubts were Not the only reason that I left, but it was the beginning of a trickle-down effect. Honestly, my father’s reaction to my YEC doubts were more influential in my “abandonment of the faith”, but even that wasn’t the entire reason. There was a multitude of contributing factors. Prior to the occasion I described before, I had no doubts that I was a Christian and my life and actions reflected someone who was preparing to become a missionary. I think it’s so easy to get sucked into “living a Christian-life” – one can easily spend all their time and energy into becoming “more Christian” and then nit-picking at all the things they do and say and believe to prove to themselves and everyone around them that they are going to make it to heaven. I was taught I had to believe YEC because the Bible taught it, and if we doubted that one aspect, we’d have to doubt the entire faith. That’s what happened to me. It was a pivotal cornerstone that probably should never have been placed as a cornerstone by those that were my spiritual leaders. I may not be where I am today if they hadn’t stressed its vital significance as much as they did.
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Gail and Janna – awesome comments. 🙂
Gail, you’re right. I couldn’t care less about B4B. Luckily for him, I don’t have the patience to debate with people who are so set in their ways. Nothing I say will allow him to see my view. I don’t care, I like where I am at and enjoy discussing these things with people who can see and appreciate other viewpoints.
Janna, great catch (we say that at work for noticing something not caught by others). It was an integrity issue for me. They could be intellectual all they wanted (they went through enough years at school to be thought of as smart), but if you’re a professing Christian, integrity is valued way more than intelligence. I would have thought they they would have wanted to be as above-board as possible to show how carefully they investigated and wrote about YEC to all us young-impressionable folks! I also liked your last paragraph. 🙂 Thanks for the kind words!
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Hannah rocks.
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Thanks, Hannah, 🙂
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I agree, Eric.
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Hannah- You would love my wayward daughters, and they would love you! There is more grace & acceptance in the world than there is in some Christian circles.
I get why you and my daughters went AWOL, it make a lot of sense.
Not worried in the least about where my kids will eventually land. I’m not running the show, Jesus is, and His mercy’s are new every morning & great is His faithfulness.
Take care, thank-you for sharing with us, I hope when the time is right I can share your post with my girls who are women now!
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B4B,
Saving faith is a Calvinist doctrine, and non-Calvinists do not subscribe to the saving faith doctrine. You misquoted Jesus when you put the parenthesis around his quote, making it the quote of Jesus, when it was not his quote to begin with. You put SPIN into it.
Ed
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B4B,
A GROUNDING issue? Are you kidding? Young people are leaving the faith due to a GROUNDING ISSUE? Please, B4B, get real. They are leaving because they are not being taught SOUND “interpretations” of scripture. They are being fed SPIN, and that spin is proven to be false in the secular academics, not atheist scientists attempting to debunk Christianity, but from secular academics, which does indeed run circles around the young earth spin. Your religious spin is why young people are leaving the faith, not because of grounding issue. Your religion is making this topic a salvation issue. When people accept Jesus, there isn’t a young earth quiz that goes with it.
Ed
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Gail wrote @ 6:01 PM
Gary W & Eric Fry- B4B triggers me something terrible. Thank You for standing up to his bully tactics. It was folks like him that broke me. And my daughters.
Let me tell you something, Gail, they trigger the daylights out of me, too. Bullies like BeforeBee want to break people’s spirits, but sometimes things backfire severely. I was a tall, skinny “choir geek” in high school, and picked on by people just like him, fine upstanding Christian boys. I got out of school, spent 2 weeks in ICU after a car wreck, then gained over a hundred pounds of muscle during my rehab. I got meaner than a bobcat with his hind end hung on a barbed wire fence, and had a few “come to Jesus” meetings with some of the old HS guys. Even now, pushing 50, I still like to dust up my knuckles every once in a while, and guys like him get on my last nerve. That’s what bullies make of people like me; mean, nasty guys that just don’t care sometimes.
Anytime you need to, feel free to just step behind me and point, dearie.
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That’s a very good point. What prayers do Calvinists pray for the people chosen for eternal damnation anyway? That they might be saved? Righhhhhht.
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Hannah,
Maybe I said something like this on a previous occasion, but I am sure I see the real Jesus in you, and shining through you. It’s nothing I can explain. It’s just how it is. I know that I am not alone in wishing you the best.
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Scary,
You had said:
“If your daughter abandoned her faith in Jesus Christ over carbon-14 dating citations in a book, then it wasn’t there to start with.
Don’t blame Ken Ham or marusha for your daughters lack of faith. Praying for your daughter.”
You have got to be kidding? Ken Ham’s SPIN is not GROUNDED in truth, and the secular academics can run circles around Ken and Marusha’s claims of a young earth.
The conclusion is, that lies are being taught by the religious spin, and those lies are verifiable. Since that is a lie, proven, then what else is a lie? That is the whole point of young people leaving the faith. Everything being taught by those religious leaders is all based on a lie. That lie is the religious leaders OWN interpretation of the Genesis account, rather than the TRUE Genesis account.
Not only that, they are making it a salvation issue, therefore, it is a sin to question the validity of their claims.
Ed
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Marusha,
Thank you!! That means a lot to me. I am glad that we both got some rest last night afterwards, and have our cool heads back on straight. Thank you much!!
Ed
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Anonymous @ 11:59am,
Sounds like a James Carville/Mary Matalin moment. Opposites attract!
Ed
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Eric Fry July 11, 2013 @ 7:34 PM “Anytime you need to, feel free to just step behind me and point, dearie.”
Thank-You! It just floors me that there are a few good/safe/ spirit filled men here who have the heart, soul & bravery to speak boldly. I still shake in my boots when I encounter a know it all. Blessings, I appreciate being heard & protected.
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Marusha,
You had said:
“Nope, I didn’t make YEC a salvation issue. I said that belief in Scripture is a salvation issue.”
Well, you believe that the teaching of YEC is scripture, correct? Can we put 2 and 2 together here, and conclude that those who do not believe in YEC is a disbelief in scripture, therefore, concluding that YEC is indeed a salvation issue?
Ed
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Marusha, I just read your correction. Sorry.
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B4B,
I think that you study the creeds more than the Bible. All of the creeds are the “We Believe” statements. Well, I don’t necessarily believe what those dead people believed. The “We” are dead. Jesus lives. I am alive. Jesus and I have that in common. My “We” is Jesus and me, a relationship, having nothing to do with the creeds of old.
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Janna, I loved your response to scary. Excellent!!
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B4b. I drove 3-1/2 hrs today and enjoyed a meeting/dinner for 5 hrs and was approving your comments throughout that time without really reading them until now and so I’m tired. See this statement of yours?
Give the intelligent people in the room a break.
That’s condescending. It’s getting old for me. Please knock it off.
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Eric, your response to Gail: YES! That’s a real man. Love it!
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Gary W said:
.” How much better it would have been if these teachers had simply said something to the effect that, “This is what we believe about creation, this is why we believe it, others disagree, but in the end, it just doesn’t matter. All that really matters is Jesus.”
Wild applause, Gary!!!
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“Man, it’s amazing how many comments one has to catch up on after being away from the computer for just a few hours :)”
I was thinking the very same thing, Ryan. I’ll catch up with the rest tomorrow. Must find wifi hotspot. Typing on iPhone is for the birds.
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If it’s for the birds, I guess that’s why they invented “tweet”, lol.
Ed
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JA,
Well, no apologies, so I guess I’ll move along. Most of you aren’t really interested in genuine Biblical dialogue anyway. I guess I’m a slow learner. I do believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of scripture and the other aforementioned tenets of fundamental Christianity.. So did Jesus, so I guess I have good company.
So y’all go on and leave the Bible and a couple thousand years of church history on the shelf, have your little ‘me and Jesus – don’t need anything else – love fest and have a nice day.
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B4B,
Yesterday at 5:35 PM you took umbrage at being called a liar. What I said was that the following statement, posted by you, is a blatant lie: “The tenets drawn up by the fundamentalist movement in America are not unlike the formulation of creeds by the early church councils.” To call your statement a lie is not the same thing as calling you a liar. You are a liar only if you made the statement thinking it to be untrue. You obviously believe in the truth of what you stated. Therefore, while I am of the opinion that you are outrageously mistaken, nobody is calling you a liar.
Even if you are unable or unwilling, for whatever reason, to engage in civil discussion, please don’t try to play the victim card.
Note to JA: This is my second attempt to address this issue. Maybe I neglected to post the first time. However, if my first attempt somehow ended up in moderation, please just delete it. Also, please feel free to delete this paragraph/note once you have seen it.
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Wow, Born4Battle. How can you pack so many condescending and snarky statements in such a short paragraph. So
– You are the only one who knows what “genuine Biblical dialogue” looks like.
– You have Jesus on your corner and the rest of us don’t.
– You’ve cornered the market on orthodoxy because the rest of us left the Bible and Jesus
– Then you whip out the victim card.
You serve as a reminder of why I left the conservative Evangelical bubble. So at the very least, I am appreciative of your willingness to fill that role even though it was never requested by anyone here. Didn’t you threaten to leave several times before?
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Gary W.,
That missing comment was truly missing. There’s nothing in moderation from you.
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Ryan,
This whole comment was so excellent. I couldn’t just post an excerpt. Yes!!!
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Gail, it sounds like your daughters and Hannah have a lot in common.
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Julie Anne,
Somehow, the article lost its last few paragraphs. I noticed that article abruptly ends with “For example, take a look at the following excerpt taken from an article at Ken Ham’s Answers in Genesis site” but I know it didn’t end with that before.
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RMR,
Oh, how bizarre. Let me check. I’m limited right now with only my smart phone but I saw that Homeschoolers Anonymous reblogged it. Hopefully they have the whole thing.
Thanks for letting me know.
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“brad/futuristguy” here. Sometimes I fix technical problems for Julie Anne. There was a problem with a link that made the last few paragraphs disappear. It appears to be fixed now. Thanks for alerting us to the problem!
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Look at that, without even a phone call, in walks Super Brad who saves the day! Thank you, friend!!
I wonder how that happened. ::::strange.blog.happenings:::::
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B4B – “Most of you aren’t really interested in genuine Biblical dialogue anyway.”
Yeah, is that like the post on corporal punishment where you refused to respond to any of my BIBLICAL arguments with anything except “the Bible says so”? Besides, who wants to dialogue with someone who has to resort to constant ad hominem attacks instead of addressing the actual issue?
“So y’all go on and leave the Bible and a couple thousand years of church history on the shelf, have your little ‘me and Jesus – don’t need anything else – love fest and have a nice day.”
Again, over generalizing, over reaching – what good does this do anyone? Deal with the actual argument with the actual person who said it and move on.
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So I just went over to snoop at the reblogged post at Homeschooler’s Anonymous (the post is all there -yea)
and check out this excerpt from a comment:
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Maybe it was the Internet trolls….:P
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Whoops, other comments came in before I posted it, so now my last comment makes no sense. It was in reference to this from Julie Anne:
“Look at that, without even a phone call, in walks Super Brad who saves the day! Thank you, friend!!
I wonder how that happened. ::::strange.blog.happenings:::::”
Maybe it was the Internet trolls….:P
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It’s sad to me when those who adhere to church history and orthodoxy, as if they are the Gospel, dismiss believers who don’t hold to all those extras. They often resort to unkind remarks and put downs of other Christians who don’t look through their glasses. These folks seem to view Christians as a “collective of same thinking” people 😦 instead of Christians being all those who believe Jesus is their Lord and Savior and the way to our Father 🙂
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Nope, no trolls this time. I just figured it out. There was a small typo someone alerted me to and so I ahem “fixed” it from my phone. That is quite the challenge because you basically see a screen with a bunch of HTML mixed with words. I must have tweaked some code. My fault. But I’m sure glad you mentioned it!
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“It’s sad to me when those who adhere to church history and orthodoxy, as if they are the Gospel, dismiss believers who don’t hold to all those extras. They often resort to unkind remarks and put downs of other Christians who don’t look through their glasses. These folks seem to view Christians as a “collective of same thinking” people instead of Christians being all those who believe Jesus is their Lord and Savior and the way to our Father ”
No kidding. It’s sad when people’s dedication to Christ is judged solely by the opinions one holds on various topics and issues, rather than Christ’s direct commandment to love God and love neighbor.
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Thanks to the above comment by Anonymous (July 10, 7:28 PM), I was able to locate an excellent paper by Randal Rauser. Addressing issues raised by Focus on the Family’s so-called Truth Project, Rauser masterfully addresses problems with the kinds of thought patterns exhibited by so many fundamentalists. In particular, he addresses the nature and effect of binary thinking, what I would tend to refer to as black and white, either or, my way or the highway, kinds of thinking. The paper can be found in .pdf format at:
Click to access Learning-in-Wartime.pdf
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“have your little ‘me and Jesus – don’t need anything else – love fest and have a nice day.”
Sounds good to me 🙂
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Julie Anne
B4B: Said person is using a tactic taught by Ken Ham. “We are the intelligent ones.” “We have studied extensively.” “You are not debating properly.”
They have to go down this road because they know the science as presented by this group is off base and not peer reviewed. If they get around people who can intelligently question the science, they are taught to question the person questioning the science. That is the only possible way for them to win.
They are so predictable yet they think they are being clever.
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Bridget,
You had said:
“It’s sad to me when those who adhere to church history and orthodoxy, as if they are the Gospel, dismiss believers who don’t hold to all those extras. They often resort to unkind remarks and put downs of other Christians who don’t look through their glasses. These folks seem to view Christians as a “collective of same thinking” people 😦 instead of Christians being all those who believe Jesus is their Lord and Savior and the way to our Father :)”
I first ran into this sort of thing with a Catholic that I have been debating with for over 3 years now. He is a devout Catholic, and a very good debater. That being said, I first had responded to someone else about a certain topic. He chimed in and said that he would rather research what the “Church Fathers” had to say on the subject, and whatever the “Church Fathers” had to say is more important than anything else.
I responded something like, “Oh, so you don’t have a mind of your own?”
He then points me to what Peter said:
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
So, the answer is, they don’t have permission from Peter to interpret scripture.
However, Peter never said what they claim. 2 Peter 1:20 is about prophecy, not scripture. And the topic is about Jesus, that prophecy is about Jesus, not me.
So, you have a lot of the Augustine folks who adhere to the church fathers, aka, church history, which includes all of the dead men’s councils, etc., because they aren’t allowed to have a mind of their own.
Ed
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Dee, It’s pretty obvious that your readers and my readers were created by intelligent design and can see through the garbage. It just may take some of us a little longer (:::cough,cough JA) to realize what is really going on. I’m glad I finally cleaned my glasses.
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Ed, Dead men encouraged CON to sue me. Remember that crazy manifesto? Dead men.
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JA,
Oh, ya…he had a slew of quotes from those dead men.
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The Current (July 11, 2013) article at The Wartburg Watch is IMO well worth reading. Just as a teaser, Ronald M. Enroth is quoted as writing, “Many have described the aftermath of abusive-church involvement as comparable to that of rape victims, or the delayed stress syndrome experienced by war veterans. It is recovery from what might be called spiritual rape.”
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Insightful as always, Bridget. 🙂
In my opinion, the people you’re referencing view Christianity as a club you join rather than being a belief system you’re responsible for thinking through on your own. They’d rather have an authority figure tell them what to think about any and all Biblical and moral issues than go through the process of constructing a real Faith based on a personal relationship with Christ.
There’s nothing wrong with that per se from a freedom of religion stand-point. However, trying to engage folks who view Christianity as a fixed package deal requiring no independent thought is seldom a good use of time, in my experience.
“It’s sad to me when those who adhere to church history and orthodoxy, as if they are the Gospel, dismiss believers who don’t hold to all those extras. They often resort to unkind remarks and put downs of other Christians who don’t look through their glasses. These folks seem to view Christians as a “collective of same thinking” people 😦 instead of Christians being all those who believe Jesus is their Lord and Savior and the way to our Father :)”
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I don’t mean to offend anyone with this question but haven’t seen it addressed in my limited exposure to YEC thinking.
I see lots of arguments pertaining to YEC and Science but none explaining why our literary record contains no evidence of people co-existing with Dinosaurs.
For example, wouldn’t the ancient Sumerians, whom we have every reason to believe were around about 6000 years ago and from whom we have the world’s first written records via Cuneiform, have left us some written record about how irritated they were that Tyrannosaurus Rex was stomping on all their pottery?
I’m really not making fun of anyone’s belief system. I’m genuinely curious as to how YEC proponents explain why people left no written records of their interactions with dinosaurs if the earth was created about 6000 years ago and the two species overlapped.
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Great question, Janna. I’m looking forward to reading responses.
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Thanks, Julie Anne. I wish I could take credit for the question but I read the essence of it somewhere.
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I’m guessing some would claim that there’s a vast atheist conspiracy to suppress any evidence of dinosaurs and people co-existing.
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@RMR
I have have indeed heard that claim before.
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“I’m guessing some would claim that there’s a vast atheist conspiracy to suppress any evidence of dinosaurs and people co-existing.”
I think that’s what you’d be reduced to arguing as even if people weren’t literate 6000 years ago they could have drawn pictures of dinosaurs in caves or left some other documentation to the effect that they were co-existing with a note-worthy species. They certainly drew pictures of other thing they came in contact with.
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I had a little chuckle out of that…with the new generation that has never known a period of time that cell phones and internet never existed, I can imagine the new generation saying something like, “couldn’t they have just emailed a picture of the dinosaurs and posted it on Facebook?” No, their operating system was “Windows 4000 B.C. The modem would take 37 million years to get all the pixels together.”
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The GodDiscussion broadcast is at 8:00 here. I’ll be listening for you, JA. (If the kiddos allow.)
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I think the dinosaurs ate all of the evidence.
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Great, BTDT!
I’m still on the road and should get home with 30 min to spare. Whew!
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Thanks, Craig. I was a fool laughing down the road in the car by myself thanks to you. 🙂
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Now if we can get some smart youngsters together to figure out how to make a time-travel machine to go back in time, we’d eliminate the need for this discussion. Let’s get on it!
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Julie Anne rocking the airwaves…err, webwaves…uhh bandwidth! 😀
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🙂
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Fascinating broadcast! The discussion really connects a lot of dots. I have to wonder how much of the crazy in my former church was directly attributable to The Movement(TM).
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BTDT – That very well could be the source of crazy – or some of it. All it takes is one connection with a guru leader and then you dive into their ideologies (ie, Doug Phillips)
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Julie Anne,
I think you and the rest of the crew did a good job articulating the specific issues that are so troubling.
I laughed when you mentioned knowing people who were still using up their Y2K stash. We knew some people doing the same. When my husband and I married in 2001, he received three Aladin oil lamps at his groom’s shower. They are beautiful lamps. But he’s convinced they were someone’s Y2K preparations that they no longer needed. Lol. I bought electric converters for them so we can use them as regular lamps.
It was sad at the end hearing that some of them never received any science education beyond YEC. It made me grateful for the online program my kids are doing. My oldest daughter has enjoyed the science lessons and the accompanying experiments.
My wheels are turning. I’m glad all of you took the time to do the program.
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Thanks, BTDT – – we are still recording off air. Just wrapping up right now.
What science program do you use? Yes the lack of science was sad. Thankfully our kids did get some decent science in the co-ops.
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The science curriculum is included in the Time4learning program. The basic lessons, quizzes, and tests are all completed online. They then print off the related worksheets. With science, the worksheets give instructions on how to carry out various experiments.
It’s been a lifesaver for me. A year ago I could barely function emotionally, much less teach. But, my daughter is already learning material that her daddy never learned.
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That’s wonderful. The beauty of homeschooling is that we don’t have to follow traditional school schedules. We can teach in the summer and holidays and are able to catch up. You went through a lot with your former church. It’s understandable that normal life suffered.
You’ve done so well. Looks how everything is coming together for you. I’m so glad we met in TX. It truly was one of the highlights of my trip.
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Thanks, Julie Anne and Hannah, for this thought-provoking honest discussion about faith. Hannah, as a parent, I especially appreciate your point of view. Why? I homeschool and use public online curriculum (some may not see us as “ligit” homeschoolers). When it comes to history, individual opinions & discussions are part of our learning process. I have found this highly beneficial in order to: foster critical thinking, develop ideas, respect others with different points of view even when they’re not our own, and encourage a fluid mindset which makes it okay to change our mind & admit we are wrong, it’s not the end of the world. In fact, it’s good. However, with all that said, I’ve had to reflect and rethink what I’ll be teaching about creation, based on this post and Hannah’s comments.
First, an observation: B4B has presented the nail to his own coffin in this discussion. He says “being well grounded” is key to “lasting” faith. I so disagree with that! He doesn’t believe that either but for a different reason – predestination (meaning neither firm foundation, nor anything else matters since God decides and is in 24/7 complete control), but I’ve digressed.
What I’m trying to say is if the foundation of faith is a bunch of absolutes (like YEC), no thinking required or allowed, then it can be easily shattered when just one absolute falters, and it doesn’t really matter which one. It is about integrity. I understand and sympathize. Janna Chan is right, it can lead to rigid shut-off-brain mindset, or lots of questions (if the person cared about what they believed). So this is also a discussion about what faith’s foundation is. B4B may take comfort in orthodoxy, creeds & theology instead of simple faith and in being reconciled to a God who loves us so much. Did Jesus discuss creeds and absolutes with the thief on the cross? Creeds, orthodoxy, absolutes do not love or save, Jesus does. Hannah, I’m glad you think for yourself. That’s a right foundation. We care. I hope you feel loved and I hope this comforts you.
I have benefited so much from this post and comments about YEC. I had leaned YEC. Not surprising for a homeschool Mom, right? These discussions reminded me that it is right to explain that I don’t “absolutely know for sure” exactly how, and teach the different thoughts on creation. And I realize it’s not primary, it’s not absolute that we in our own family agree on this. It is not our “foundation” of faith. This has been a great reminder of what’s important. Thank you Hannah and Julie Anne.
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A Mom:
I was so, so happy to read your comment. If one person/family is benefited by our story, then my/our pain was not in vain.
Your point about B4B and predestination was right on. It’s interesting because B4B echoes what many of his ilk might say and I missed the obvious contradiction. So thank you for that!
I love your illustration of the thief on the cross who was saved without creeds – beautiful!
I was just thinking about this idea of not knowing everything. It seems people like Marusha and B4B need to have all of the answers. Everything needs to fit neat and tidy in their Christianity box. That is not the reality of the bible. All through the bible there are mysteries. How did the water turn into wine? How did the fish/bread multiply? How did John see heaven? When will Jesus return? I think having these mysteries humbles us and keeps us at a place God wants us to be – – trusting in Him, rather than religious scholars.
Thank so much for sharing, A Mom. Your comment made my day.
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