This picture was taken in my neighborhood a while back. I took it from the driver’s seat of my car. That is one big honkin’ tumbleweed and it always amazes me how tumbleweed can roll through fields, across a busy street and end up in our neighborhood. I had this picture in my mind when thinking of Spiritual Abuse. Were we like tumbleweed, being tossed around with no foundation?
I came across an article on spiritual abuse Spiritual Abuse: It takes “Two to Tango” written by Stephen Crosby. I noticed a TWW reader mentioned it, causing a little uproar as the reader challenged “survivor blogs”, and it was also referenced at SGMSurvivor site as a good resource for spiritual abuse survivors. In the comment section of Crosby’s bio, he responds to a reader:
I have experienced the abuse myself and understand it spiritually, theologically, relationally, and psychologically; I help people recover, or perhaps discover for the first time, the reality of their sonship and relationship to their Father, rather than relationship to the church or Christian religion.
It sounds like Crosby spends a significant amount of his time helping people and he clearly has an understanding of spiritual abuse. Here’s the part of the article that intrigued me the most, in particular the third paragraph (the bold parts were from the article, not by me):
I have dealt with literally hundreds of people who have been legitimately abused in unhealthy church environments. I am very sympathetic to their pain and have my own hair-curling horror stories I could tell of the things that have been done to me, my wife, and my children by “leaders” in the name of Jesus. I GET IT.
However, I’ve noticed a difference between those who are restored to spiritual health quickly, and those who remain in reactionary woundedness for years or decades. Those who recover quickly admit that there was something broken or unwhole in themselves that was a “hook” for controllers and abusers to play on. They do not just blame the perpetrators of the injustice against them. Healthy, whole, functional, adults–especially fully resourced believers (2 Pet. 1:3)–are not easy to control and abuse.
As legitimate as the mistreatment may have been, somewhere the abused individuals (assuming adults–not children or minors) failed to exercise their God-given abilities to protect themselves. God has given every mentally whole adult the “power of no” to protect ourselves. How much more so believers who have the indwelling Spirit? The trouble is, we are often not whole and we often ignore the Spirit’s prompting because of the emotional cost of following what He says to us. Being Spirit-led takes more courage than people normally think, but then again, courage is one of the first evidences of being a regenerated, Spirit-filled, human being (Acts 1-4).
This is a recurring comment we have seen here when discussing spiritual abuse – that we are partly responsible for the abuse we incurred, we should have seen the faulty doctrine, the signs, the fruit in the leaders’ lives, etc. Here’s more from the article:
Folks could have said “no” to leaders. Why didn’t they? Could be lots of reasons for that. What was the “hook” in the soul that folks could not say “no”? Folks can leave a ministry or church. They don’t. Why? Could be lots of reasons, some very difficult to face. They could have confronted.
What about wives in a complementarian or especially patriarchal environment? Do you think they need to own their part of allowing the abuse when their marriage may in fact be a system where women have no voice? In SGM-like churches and my former church, husbands are called the priest of the home. They are responsible for the family spiritually. Women are many times left out of the process.
Towards the end of my time at the abusive church I had to make the choice to “sin.” I remember feeling strongly that I was in deep sin by doing what I was doing: telling my husband I no longer could go to THAT church, that it was killing me mentally, spiritually. Somehow I had the wherewithal to say, “enough is enough,” but there was a personal cost and a cost to the family. I felt so guilty for saying I could not go back to that church and would be going somewhere else without the family. I was completely bucking this religious system I was part of and had no idea what would happen next. I was saying NO to my spiritual head.
I had difficulty reading parts of Crosby’s article. Spiritual abusers are masterful manipulators. They can pull the wool over people’s eyes. I get confused wondering what I could have done differently. And then the guilt comes again. Am I supposed to be asking God to forgive me for obeying my husband by going to the church he led our family to?
The article then goes on to discuss that many of us had psychological needs met by our abusers and that’s why we chose to remain. Ouch! I think there may be some truth to that in some instances, but again, what about wives in patriarchal families where the father makes these decisions for his family?
The final paragraph:
If you have been seriously damaged in a church situation, I urge you to forgive quickly, take responsibility for your own soul, repent to God for not using the tools he has given you to protect yourself, find people who can love you without agenda, help you find inner healing if you need it, and be restored to a vibrant and healthy kingdom life.
Am I supposed to repent to God for not using the tools He gave me? Again, ouch. I think there is good information in this article, but for me, it was difficult to read on the emotional level – no warm fuzzies, that’s for sure.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
I can understand your reaction, Julie Anne.
I think that it’s unfortunate that he used the word “repent” that one time in the article, because that really wasn’t the focus. Also, he does call out “leaders” for manipulating and taking advantage of people. He also noted that he has written extensively about abusive leadership in his books and other blog posts, and wanted to focus more on why people would become dependent on these abusive manipulators. And, again, he made it clear that he was talking about adults, not children.
My takeaway from the article is that it can be helpful to consider why I got sucked into the SGM organization so that I can avoid having the same thing happen in the future, and to be able to warn others who might be in the same position I was in at the time. I think it’s a valuable exercise for any of us who have been in an any kind of abusive relationship to take the time to ask: How did this happen, and what can I do to make sure that it never happens again?
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And I meant to say that, no, I technically never “repented”, I guess nor would I tell someone else that they should. I do have regrets and wish I had never let myself be used as I was. But that’s history and now I have moved on, thank God.
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I’ve seen cases in spousal abuse where both parties are at fault. The abused party knows exactly what buttons to push to set off the abuser. Even with this case, I would have a hard time suggesting that the abused party should repent.
I understand that Crosby means well. I don’t think, however, suggesting that, with the case of spiritual abuse, the abused have much say with what goes on — the abuser holds all the cards.
The spiritual abusers:
— Obviously are “more holy” because they are “chosen by God” to lead.
— Have the power of guilt and shame over the abused.
— Seem to hold the consequences of eternity over the heads of the abused.
It still seems to me that this is an attempt to skirt some of the responsibly.
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I as well can understand your reaction. The last paragraph is troubling for me personally. All those things are good to do, but to ask one to “quickly forgive” just sounds like “get over it”. This healing process is not one to speed through. Also, it sounds like I’m “damaged goods” UNTIL I do all those things on that check list ~ only then can I be “restored to a healthy kingdom life”? I believe going through that process IS living in tune with the Holy Spirit which I would call a “healthy” life. I’m not sure what a “healthy kingdom life” looks like on this side of heaven. What am I supposed to be “restored” to? I already am complete in Jesus 🙂 I’m learning to walk in that truth.
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If someone broke into your home and stole all your possessions, would you assume some of the responsibility because you should have had one more lock on the doors? Because you are in a vulnerable place or a trusting place, that in no way gives anyone the right to use and abuse you or anyone.
In a church, you should be able to trust and believe others are there to love and care for you and about you. Your guard is down. You are not thinking about having to be on guard to exercise your ‘NO’.
Unfortunately, we, the used and abused, have learned the painful way, that the church is the very place that the ‘NO’ has to be fully engaged. But that is learned after we are damaged property.
Sadly, another example of someone blaming the victim.
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I, too, understand the premise of the article and its helpfulness to people confused and questioning. I have concern with the use of the term repenting as well. Julie Anne pointed out one area of concern for women in churches that teach the comp/patriarchal doctrines.
Another concern is for children who are born and raised in the spiritually authoritative culture and for people who, when saved, are spiritually nurtured in a spiritually authoritative environment. People in these two categories don’t know anything different then what they were taught. Without the Holy Spirit breaking through all the corrupt doctrine, they are sucked into the vortex of spiritual authority and “guilt” for doing something different then what the “spiritual leader” advises, whether it is the husband, parent, or elder. Many people have been taught to please parents, husbands, and elders, before pleasing Christ. It is very easy for these leaders to throw out “proof text” scriptures to support what they say
I think there are many leaders who need to repent for not teaching and discipling in such a way that would lead believers to a place of spiritual maturity. I understand that responsibility rests with the believer, as well, and leaders can’t force people into maturity; but they can teach them the whole counsel of God and not make people dependent on themselves (the leaders) for their spiritual lives. It takes a very healthy person (leader) to not want people to be dependent on them or their church. If a leader wants a name for themselves in any way, they are not going to be able to lead people into a healthy, mature walk with God.
There are probably some people who knew the difference between a healthy walk with the Lord and being under the leadership of an unhealthy group, and need to repent. I actually think there are fewer in this category than in the above categories.
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Articles like this shut me down. I had a hard day yesterday after reading it on TWW. He might not be meaning to say if you are a good Christian “you will forgive quickly, take responsibility for your own soul, repent to God for not using the tools he has given you to protect yourself, find people who can love you without agenda, help you find inner healing if you need it, and be restored to a vibrant and healthy kingdom life” But that is what I heard. I am not a good Christian because it has taken me years to sort some of the confusion out. Yikes. As I write that, I can hear my old leaders in my head saying: God is not the author of confusion but of peace- I’m sure Julie that you know where that leads one…
As far as being restored to a vibrant-healthy kingdom life I wonder what that looks like? A cross is a cross is a cross and it ain’t vibrant its painful till God heals & restores.
It seem that I now live in the psalms vacillating between sorrow and joy, the place where I can pour out my anger, praise, questions of: How long O Lord? fear: what time I am afraid I will trust ( I try) in You and on & on. I Love that King David, a man after God’s own heart, I can just imagine what Leaders would do with him today.
See, the church I came out of frowned on doubts, fears, anger, depression… So the psalms are a safe place for me, a place where I do not have to divorce myself from my humanity, paste a plastic smile on my face and pretend… Ok, I just went off on a mini tangent.
I think it is a true blessing that Crosby made it out of church abuse, and is helping others but just because God worked that way in his journey doesn’t make it a formula for everyone, right??
I told the Lord a few years back that I just wasn’t Christian material according to the church… Later, I was reminded that He first loved and chose me and knew what He was getting when he pursued my wounded heart.
Love the fire in your belly Julie- Thank-You again!
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Marge – I don’t want to dismiss everything Crosby has to say by any means. It sounds like he is doing good work in helping those who have been abused. Yes, he used the word “repent” once, but the title references “Two to Tango” and mentioned we played apart in it. That implies we had a role in the abuse. How much was our responsibility is what I want to know.
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As for the question of needing to repent… Aw shucks- no I don’t need to repent for being spiritually abused, only for the ways I have abused others and myself.
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Monique said: The last paragraph is troubling for me personally. All those things are good to do, but to ask one to “quickly forgive” just sounds like “get over it”. This healing process is not one to speed through. Also, it sounds like I’m “damaged goods” UNTIL I do all those things on that check list ~ only then can I be “restored to a healthy kingdom life”? I believe going through that process IS living in tune with the Holy Spirit which I would call a “healthy” life. I’m not sure what a “healthy kingdom life” looks like on this side of heaven. What am I supposed to be “restored” to? I already am complete in Jesus I’m learning to walk in that truth.
This is EXACTLY what bothered me about the article and also tweaked me regarding Sad’s response. Why is it that we, who have been abused, are on the spotlight to see if we have done our recovery process “correctly”, forgiven/repented? Are those same people who are judging our recovery process also speaking out against the abuse in the first place? I’ll bet not.
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Repentance implies that you made a willful choice and that you sinned. In most of these cases, we really were oblivious to what was going on. It’s only later on, on the way out, or after you’re out, that you can see what happened. For most of us, it wasn’t a willful, sinful choice, so yeah, repentance is definitely too strong of a word to use. I would say, for me, I made a mistake or I was deceived, so repentance is not required. Thanks for bringing this up, Julie Anne. It’s good to be able to think and talk about these things.
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Gail said: “I think it is a true blessing that Crosby made it out of church abuse, and is helping others but just because God worked that way in his journey doesn’t make it a formula for everyone, right??”
Gail, you weren’t the only one tweaked after reading the article, obviously. I had read it before Sad quoted it, but it was when Sad quoted it, and I am also aware of how Sad has responded regarding Survivor Blogs – that it tweaked me. Why? Because it was someone on the outside presuming to speak to me on what is the right way to healing. I do not believe there is one right way. Really? Are we going to limit God to one way?
The idea in the article that we may have some psychological deficits (that may not be the right word to use, but go along with me for a sec) which drew us to a church is probably a valid statement. I get that. So how then can someone be blamed for “blindly following” if their psychological deficit prevented them from seeing the truth?
Hindsight is 20/20 and sadly, by the time you figure it all out, the damage was done and you’ve got some healing work to do.
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Marge – I so needed to read this: Repentance implies that you made a willful choice and that you sinned. In most of these cases, we really were oblivious to what was going on. It’s only later on, on the way out, or after you’re out, that you can see what happened. For most of us, it wasn’t a willful, sinful choice, so yeah, repentance is definitely too strong of a word to use.
Yes, I think that word needs to be exchanged, but also perhaps the title, too. I think after all is said and done we need to look at what caused us to get into this predicament, but that cannot happen until we are in a place of knowing the truth of what happened.
I’m reminded that I posted all kinds of stuff on Kevin Swanson’s FB challenging his crazy statements. I even posted a link to my blog where reasonable (yes, my readers have brains and aren’t drinking Koolaid) people commented how ridiculous his public statements were. His followers had the opportunity to read the truth about embedded babies in wombs. Yet many people “Liked” his Facebook public response after so many people called him on it. He didn’t have a credible response – it was a NON-response. You and I could have cited REAL medical studies until we were blue in the face and Swanson’s followers would have remained his followers. There is something psychological keeping them sucked into that cult-like group. They are completely blind – – – until something/someone opens up their eyes.
We behaved the same way with our leader/church, blindly following, until something clicked.
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“Should We Repent for Allowing Ourselves to be Spiritually Abused?” In a word, no. I read Crosby’s bio. He has no psychology education or degree, and, frankly, isn’t qualified to counsel people. He does admit to this as well. That said, after a quick perusal of a few of his articles, I do believe he means well in his attempt to help people. I think he is just a bit misguided on his “It ‘Takes Two To Tango'” article. He is entitled to his opinion. What I strongly objected to was the said commenter on TWW beating us over the head with Crosby’s opinions. That was confrontational, insensitive, and wrong. Her attitude was just off.
I like what JeffS said when he told the story about a counsellor telling a group of them “that they would not heal until they took responsibility for their healing.” He went on to say “that taking responsibility wasn’t the same as accepting blame, and often it wasn’t fair.” I think most of us read and comment here because we are taking responsibility for our healing. We are trying to understand why we joined our abusive churches and why we remained for so long. There is a big difference between that and “holding grudges” as the said TWW commenter proclaimed. I would like to deconstruct the manipulations that have ruled my life, so that I can move on to love my family, love my neighbors, and love my God, without all of the legalism. And I want to work through this with other empathic, compassionate people, who understand. People who are “in your face” with their own dogma aren’t any better than the abusive manipulators I just left.
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BeenThereDoneThat – Exactly!
And I was also thinking that another reason that we shouldn’t feel like we need to repent for our participation in the abusive relationship is that we all thought we were doing the right thing and honestly believed that we were pleasing God.
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BTDT: People who are “in your face” with their own dogma aren’t any better than the abusive manipulators I just left.
That is very true. We have dealt with that quite a bit here with another guy who is highly critical of survivor blogs, Fred Butler – of Grace Community church. I found his online behavior to be on par with abuse I’ve experienced in my church. It really was disgusting, as my long-time readers can surely attest.
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I think the part they miss is the ‘grooming’ issue.
For myself? I wish I had different beliefs, viewpoints, and had the knowledge I needed. I didn’t and terrible things followed. I didn’t see the grooming aspect as a hook, but I’m thankful I do now.
Now I can see how I fell into the hole, and I won’t allow myself to do this again. Do I repent of being naive? No. I’m give thanks to the Lord for my knowledge now. Sadly, some fall into another hole because the knowledge was missed that other’s received afterwards. Is being Naive because you didn’t know somehow sin? That’s not something I can wrap my head around. Its not something to repent of, but being thankful for knowledge you received afterwards I do believe is healthy…and needed!
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“The idea in the article that we may have some psychological deficits (that may not be the right word to use, but go along with me for a sec) which drew us to a church is probably a valid statement. I get that. So how then can someone be blamed for “blindly following” if their psychological deficit prevented them from seeing the truth?
Amen. Several years ago as I looked back on church life with a therapist a light went on when I connected the dots that my ex-pastor was a lot like my Dad- Angry, Controlling, my way or the highway. That church felt like home for all the wrong reasons.
But, as you write the damage was done and clarity in hindsight is 20/20. I never dreamed that I needed to repent for blindly following the teachings of this church… I came in as innocent, I desired to know the One who had called me… I have no problem naming that my deficits played a role in the abuse, but it wasn’t my FAULT. Glad we can come together and hash all this out.
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Hannah – there’s a lot packed into this: Now I can see how I fell into the hole, and I won’t allow myself to do this again. Do I repent of being naive? No. I’m give thanks to the Lord for my knowledge now. Sadly, some fall into another hole because the knowledge was missed that other’s received afterwards.
THIS is why we need to keep talking about spiritual abuse – because if we go through it once and then just move on (repenting, forgiving the way the Survivor Blog Naysayers want us to respond) without trying to understand what caused us to get to that place to begin with, we will likely fall into the trap again. It does take some deep soul searching. And that’s hard work.
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I noticed in the third paragraph he states that every MENTALLY WHOLE adult has been given the power to say no. For those of us either raised in an abusive home or church (or both) we may not be mentally whole. I really don’t know how to have a healthy relationship, period. I would love to be able to but I didn’t experience that as a child nor any long term healthy relationships as an adult. I am 60 years old and trying to figure out how to do this. Just as Monique said I am complete in Jesus and learning to walk in that truth. I suspect, though, that short of when I will be made completely new it is just going to be one day at a time.
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Gail wrote: Several years ago as I looked back on church life with a therapist a light went on when I connected the dots that my ex-pastor was a lot like my Dad- Angry, Controlling, my way or the highway. That church felt like home for all the wrong reasons.
BINGO!! Same here! I think we get drawn into relationships (including with our spouse) based on our emotional state. It’s kind of like we are continually being thrust into relationships similar to our family of origin to give us another opportunity to work them out. I’ve been observing this in my personal family. It’s fascinating and yet scary to think about.
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Wisdomchaser – if you find someone who is mentally whole, let me know. I think we are ALL in a process. We are only complete in Christ. Welcome, by the way!
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Gail,
I agree with you that we only need to repent of the abuse we commit. If we can see specific things that we did that led to us being further entrenched in spiritual abuse, then for those things we repent.
Example: When I had no peace about the complementarian doctrine, I tried to follow it anyway for a time. I needed to repent to God for not waiting for His peace to rule in my heart over my beliefs and for not diligently studying and analyzing and rightly dividing the Word. I needed to repent to one daughter for saying to her that it seemed like the Bible was indicating that her father had the last word, when in fact it never says that. I did not need to repent from ‘allowing myself’ to listen to those complementarian doctrines in the first place, whether I was a child or adult. And yes, I believe hearing the very doctrine is as abusive to the soul as hearing the ‘doctrine’ of racism is abusive to the soul.
Does an ethic group need to repent for ‘allowing abuse’ by racists?
Does God need to repent for allowing abuse by us against Him?
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Julie Anne – so true about tons packed into it! It took me years, and no doubt there is still a ways to go. I don’t see the purpose of hinting at others in shame that they aren’t moving along as expected. Everyone that truly wishes to reach that point? They will reach it in God’s time. All the ‘ought too’ speeches from humans aren’t going to get them there any quicker. Patience isn’t a virtue to many humans have I’m afraid.
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Hannah – don’t laugh. I thought I was D.O.N.E. when I started this blog. I knew I’d have the occasional “trigger”, but I thought I was done. hahahahahahaha! In fact, I told my readers, it’s like peeling layers of onion. I guess I have more peeling to do. Dang, that’s one big onion!
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No laughing here believe me! A little more than a month ago I was out with a friend at breakfast, and there was family there. The father was abusive, and he didn’t care whom was round for it. He made me so mad I made comments loud enough for everyone to hear about his behavior, and he would glare at me. I refused to look away. His wife went into the bathroom, and I knew from experience you must make your own decisions for various reasons. Her toddler was present, and all I could do was leave a card on the counter of bathroom to the DV shelter. I just used body language for her to know that I left the card there for her, and then I left the bathroom.
When it was time for me to leave the pancake house I had to walk past their table. He was glaring at me again, and I GLARED right back! What I didn’t notice was men from the other tables followed me so he didn’t have the NERVE to do anything else.
I was shaking like a leaf in the parking lot, and all the way home. That experience makes me shake just thinking about it. While I was in the bathroom? I was scared to death about what I knew I had to do, and actually was wondering if it was best. In past I could have never pushed past that feeling, and I could have never glared back at him. I doubt I will never have the bravery within that I need to not get as triggered as I was during that time. I see the growth, but I also have the fear. I was scared to death, but sadly I was the only one brave enough to stand up to him.
There are many layers of that onion….MANY I agree!
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On first gloss it seems this dude is lacking the requisite understanding and sensitivity to be working with the spiritually wounded. Utilizing words like “legitimate” and “failed to exercise their God-given abilities to protect themselves” and especially telling the wounded that they need to “repent to God for not using the tools he has given you to protect yourself”—is absolutely in certain contexts a spiritually abusive thing to say. From the thin slicing of this man JA provides this guy appears clueless. And I certainly wouldn’t recommend him for those who have been trampled by spiritual abusers. This minister may only further the trampling.
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”’If you have been seriously damaged in a church situation, I urge you to forgive quickly, take responsibility for your own soul, ”’
I think at first you need to learn to forgive yourself first and foremost. To many victims feel they were stupid, etc – and use those demeaning remarks about themselves. Being naive and not having the tools yet isn’t stupid – its life!
Forgive yourself, and in time you will allow yourself to forgive the abuser as well. From what I have experienced – if you can’t forgive yourself – due to the ugly things you say to yourself about HOW you should have known, etc? The rest will be harder.
We must take responsibility for ourselves once we have those tools, and finally have it within us to use them. I think the author is placing the cart before the horse.
”’repent to God for not using the tools he has given you to protect yourself, find people who can love you without agenda, help you find inner healing if you need it, and be restored to a vibrant and healthy kingdom life.”’
I would ask God to help me find the courage to use the tools he has shown me in the future. Find a way of figuring out WHY you feel you can’t use them so that you can overcome that. This too is part of the healing process. Don’t fall into the same pattern of shaming ourselves – ie I’m so stupid – but learn to push past it.
The author seems to forget the cultic type of thinking here. You may know something is wrong, but if all your life messages of if you step out against the authority you will be damned? You may truly believe its YOU that has wrong thinking, because WHY would those thoughts be there to begin with. Most of time – it is taught because you have the devil within you, etc.
That’s completely different than the ‘going along with the crowd’ type of dynamic described in the article. well – IMO anyway.
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I totally agree with you monax. I caught those words myself, and how he just slipped those it. Yuck!
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“Hannah – don’t laugh. I thought I was D.O.N.E. when I started this blog”
Hahaha- the joke was on me too about 10 years back- hahaha- I thought I had it all figured out, thought I was done. O man, not really all that funny when I consider how I crashed & burned and went into the darkest night of my soul, accompanied with severe anxiety & clinical depression. But I do get a good chuckle how I really thought that the process of inner healing was done. ( When we see Him then we will be like Him-not so much on this side imho)
” It’s fascinating and yet scary to think about.” Yup- it is scary because of all the uncertainty. Fascinating because as the pieces of the puzzle start to fit- you can start to give yourself a break from all the shame and guilt that came on the heels of _____ fill in the blank..
Wisdom chaser- One difference I have noticed in people who were not loved & cherished in childhood or underwent abuse is a lot of us know our scars, realize there is something hurt on the inside.. and then the pain of living out of shame or self contempt … It can be much harder for some (not always) who were raised in healthy environments to see that they too are sick- only in different ways.
I love that Jesus came for the sick. And I don’t know anyone who is mentally whole, other than there is a lot of denial and methinks a lot of self righteousness going on everywhere.
I sure hope this doesn’t translate as I am a know it all- I am a 58yr.old mess who likes to talk, question, listen & learn… so much to learn
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I so agree with Hannah T that we need to learn to forgive ourselves and quit beating ourselves over the head. For me personally, I was so used to shame/guilt being a motivator. I was so afraid of what other people thought of me. One day my husband was praying for me and he asked, “Why do you let other’s condemn you? Jesus is the only one who can do that and He doesn’t!” At that moment it was like a weight lifted off me. Now, I still struggle, but other people’s opinion about me have lost so much of power (where before I had been so emotionally strangled). The truth is He isn’t looking over my shoulder shaking His head all the time disappointed in me. Also, I started to not be so introspective (it’s all about me me me)! It became easier to be the real me ~ does that make any sense? I think that’s why the remarks in that last paragraph tweaked me. It just sounded like more of a “to do” list. Yes, there are things to do, but doing those things doesn’t mean you’re “more qualified” as a Christian. Hope that makes sense!
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I think that sometimes we stay at a church because we are trained that is it wrong to be critical of a pastor…..wrong to question the leadership……and an abusive church certainly would be emphasizing those things. This is so confusing….because it seems sinful to disagree with the leaders, but really, it is good to speak the truth……and the truth isn’t always pretty. But still, really hard to not feel like I am the one who is sinning……I am currently in a church like this because my husband says that this is where we will go. I have pleaded with him to go somewhere else, but to no avail. It feels like he is more loyal to the pastor than to me.
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Jesus spoke against the offenders… “Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that temptations to sin will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!” Luke 17:1
“Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!” Matthew 18:7
“He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.” Psalm 147:3
Of course, Christians should know the Word by reading the Bible and pay attention to any warning signs of abusive leaders. I have personally found that this is a very hard thing to do as Jesus said they (the false prophets, abusers, etc.) would look just like sheep (Matthew 7:15). They would be disguised as Christians so that is what makes it very tricky.
He also said we would know them by their fruit also in Matthew 7. Sometimes the bad fruit isn’t discovered until the point we are abused. There are sometimes no warning signs.
I once thought a pastor I knew was the nicest guy ever! Until, I got into a meeting with him and saw his true colors. He took off his mask. At that point, it was too late.
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Christy said: I am currently in a church like this because my husband says that this is where we will go. I have pleaded with him to go somewhere else, but to no avail. It feels like he is more loyal to the pastor than to me.
Oh, Christy – you just shared my story. I know exactly what that feels like and you are in a very difficult situation. Have you shared with him that it seems he is more loyal to the pastor than to you?
Would you be willing to go someplace else without him? In the past I might not ever have suggested such a thing; however, what I know now is that spiritual abuse is so destructive. I don’t know if you have any children, but I would be very concerned for them. The initial conflict might be worth it in the long run for your entire family if you can get to a safe/healthy church.
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Should we repent for allowing ourselves to be spiritually abused?
NO.
Let’s understand this. The need to repent arises from personal sin. Within the interpersonal dynamic of spiritual abuse it is the Abuser who has sinned—Not the abused. Period. To ascribe sin to the abused just furthers the spiritual abuse.
I’d like to kick this guy in the pants.
Ang’s example is perfect. Just because someone broke into your home and stole your possessions doesn’t mean you need to repent for someone else’s sin, or impose guilt upon yourself for the criminality of others.
I like what Bridget brings our attention to: how those brought up in these authoritarian cultures don’t necessarily know anything different then what they’ve been taught. Their discernment has not been developed by sound teaching. In fact, I would add, it’s not in the selfish interests of these controlling authorities to empower and free their subjects.
From an Abusers perspective: “Two to tango” means the marionette can’t dance unless the puppet master pulls the strings. Masters need servants. The more submissive and oblivious the better. The more unquestioning and uncritical the better they serve the interests of the rulers and powers of the “church.”
Gail, as you describe this angry, controlling dad / pastor parallel I’m reminded of Robin Norwood’s book _Women Who Love Too Much_. Do you know of it? Here’s the book’s thesis: Girls get templated via their relationship with their fathers as to what they gravitate to when older.
Hannah. I’d like to repeat what you said: “sadly I was the only one brave enough to stand up to him.” I wish I was there. And if you’ll press me I’ll say more.
Lastly, to reiterate Monique’s point of wisdom: “Why do you let other’s condemn you? Jesus is the only one who can do that and He doesn’t!”
“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:1-2).
Amen people
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Christy,
I do believe you when you describe your current church as unsound and unhealthy. Evidently your husband doesn’t see it. He gets something out of it, but you don’t.
Let’s imagine for a moment that your current church is completely sound and healthy as your husband apparently believes it to be. Nevertheless, given that, your husband is still faced with the reality that his wife isn’t being adequately nurtured in his chosen environment.
If your husband believes it’s his responsibility to spiritually nurture and protect you, to assure that your soul thrives—Doesn’t this obligate him to find a church where you both feel edified and alive? Or as the man—who should put his wife first in this—find a church that at least his wife can thrive?
David
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Julie Anne,
I don’t think a lot of us ended up in abusive churches because we wanted to be partakers of the abuse. Most of us were initially attracted to a church for other reasons – which you have admitted in your own story – though not realizing or understanding the other social dynamics of the church that would lead to abuse. Often these social dynamics are not completely visible to outsiders, and only get uncovered slowly, one layer at a time. We slowly are programmed without even realizing it. Had most of us fully realized what the end result would be, we probably would not have even entertained being part of such a church. But that’s just the point – we didn’t know.
So are you culpable? Do you need to repent? Maybe it would be better asked if you made a mistake and would you make the same mistake again? I think the only things we are guilty of is trusting too much and perhaps, in certain cases, choosing to be ignorant or looking the other way, perhaps writing off more serious issues as mere quirkiness.
Let our stories serve as a warning to anyone thinking of becoming a part of a faith community: YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DOING YOUR OWN DUE DILIGENCE. Of the past. Of the present. Of the future. Do not depend on an institutional facade, doctrinal rhetoric, or baseless emotion. When you think you are done researching, research again, and dig deeper. Pull skeleton’s out of closets if you must. Bring any troubling facts that your research uncovers, and present it before the leadership and membership of the church. Listen to their words and watch their reaction carefully, as though you are a private investigator or trial lawyer seeking further incriminating evidence. Do they become defensive or combative? Do they engage in character assassinations? Do they try to muzzle you? Confuse you? Accuse you? Or do they listen to you and fairly and humbly present their side of the story, further supported by substantiated facts? Listen. Watch. Pray. Be objective and honest with yourself, as though you were doing this research for a client. Then, and only then, decide if you want to be a member.
Matthias
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It never smells right when I come across someone telling victims to “repent”, or to participate in blame-sharing. Abusers love it, victims are crushed by it, and churches that act that way end up looking goofy at best, maliciously abusive at worst. Shepherds don’t hurt injured sheep, they care for them. Sprint, do not walk, away from anyone advocating this sort of silliness.
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Matthias writes, “We slowly are programmed without even realizing it.”
As mountain climbers know: breathing air with little oxygen affects our judgement, can potentially kill us before we even know we’re dead. Breathing toxic air at any level, well, that can derange and suffocate us just the same.
Amen Ken!
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Ken, preach it!! That’s right. To any new readers, Ken is also Pastor Ken who has taught me so much about spiritual abuse/abusers. He has his own story to tell.
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Repent? No. You are only responsible to own any abusive behavior on your own part that you subjected your own family to as a result of being associated with these types of church environments. We all get “taken” in life, in one form or another. I think I understand the thrust of the article but as long as you were merely the victim of that abuse and subjected no one else but yourself to it – repent? I think God knows we’re all “suckers” from time to time. Should the elderly have to “repent” for getting sucked into bunko schemes that are aimed at them? Of course not – and that includes all of those who “tithe” what little money they have to some TV preacher flim-flam artist.
@JoelFrederick – nonsense! My first wife was a horrible button-pusher. But had I gotten into some physical confrontation with her, hit her or otherwise physically abused her in any manner – no sir, the blame would have entirely been on ME – it is not, “shared” and there is *never* an excuse to be abusive, physically or otherwise. If as a man, however, you find yourself in the position of being slapped, punched or scratched and you need to apply enough force to get away and out of the house – that is justifiable and it is your wife who is the abusive partner, not you.
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Yeh I am having a hard time with this article too…. I am not saying that there are not some good parts to it. What I see is that this is what worked for him in the times of his going through abuse and that’s great, but this is not everybody. Gods timetable is different then mans and His patience is also different than mans. Some people take years to heal, some, God will bring a friend along to give a little kick in the pants; some get through it alone, and some will go onto healing quickly. The problem I see with Americans is that we want results- NOW! We want problems solved quickly- I know cus’ I am one of them who likes to solve problems. But life trials does not produce quick answers or quick solutions. Some will go through horrendous abuse and may never heal, but God never gives up His promise to keep them. Personalities are also in play- one may have a real outgoing sanguine personality and need to be with people. This might aid in the healing process as he or she gets out with other people who are hurting also; whereas, an introvert may have difficulty ever trusting another person again. Another issue is how much a person was conditioned and brain washed- this is something many do not get. It can take years and sometimes never to recover. When you deal with the brain you are dealing with a delicate thing. I know firsthand, as with a lot of you, how subtle a lie can creep in and soon it is like a cancer that spreads completely taking over the reasoning and critical thought.
A great book I have just started reading is Steve Hassans book Freedom of Mind and he even states it takes love and an integrative approach to getting someone out of destructive situations. This is where I believe that unconditional love and the work of the Holy Spirit is the key in the healing process- Can we not trust that God is bigger then the trial we are bearing and knows exactly how to heal those in need?
Did not poor Job have to deal with friends who constantly were telling him to repent for something must be wrong with him to go through all the misery he was going through?
Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
and by the way Monax I will be sending you an email here soon. Your comments have been great here
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“Being Spirit-led takes more courage than people normally think, but then again, courage is one of the first evidences of being a regenerated, Spirit-filled, human being (Acts 1-4).”
This one quote bothered me a bit- I do not know if you could say that courage is the FIRST evidence that you are regenerated. The first evidence of regeneration is your confession that you believe in the Savior Jesus Christ and THAT IS IT! The Holy Spirit then takes over FOR GOOD and you are regenerated!
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thanks, t4ho. .
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Gail, as you describe this angry, controlling dad / pastor parallel I’m reminded of Robin Norwood’s book _Women Who Love Too Much_. Do you know of it?
Yes, I read it when it was first published back in the late 80’s. And I married a gentle & kind man, well- the 2nd time around we are 25 years in.
However, I never made the connection of the parallel between my pastor & my dad till I was licking my wounds in therapy. That might sound cruel- I am just being a little flip about licking my wounds, because I am tired. Thanks for asking.
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Gail, i’m happy you have a kind and gentle husband. what a blessing.
i also read it back in the late 80’s. my mom suggested it to me for understanding.
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God Bless your good Mom! ( :
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Julie Anne, I think you have a question in this that really needs answered that is a difficult one to find a solution to, and that is about when the wife of a husband is in total disagreement with the doctrines of a church. There are a few examples in the Bible where God actually told the husband, “LISTEN TO YOUR WIFE”. I need to do research in this, but I am the kind of guy where I say to myself, “I KNOW I READ THAT SOMEWHERE BEFORE”. As soon as I find it, I will post it.
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chapmaned24 Is this one? But God said to Abraham, “Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named. I look forward to your research!
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Gail, that’s the one. But I think (stress “I THINK”) that there are more examples, too, i.e. Moses son had to be circumcised, and Moses didn’t ensure it was done, but his wife sure did. I think there are even more. Not sure.
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Hi Julie. I just found this page from the old blog you had. I love to go there when I need encouragement. I go to your old pastors site when I need to remind myself why my family and I no longer go to a religious institution. Anyway, I have something that I would like to share with you and your readers.
Could “joining a church” have possible legal ramifications? Could Christians be setting themselves up for future persecution and legal lawsuits by the religious system? A word of warning about church membership that just may be coming in the future if it isn’t already here:
The 10 minute audio is called:
A warning to God’s people!
http://thebreadoflifefellowship.com/Short_Takes_.html
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Great article. I think that there are different circumstances. Some folks are pre-warned and know there’s been “stuff” in a particular ministry, but choose to support it anyway and then get hurt.
Others, like you Julie Anne, were led there by your husband. You had no idea, I’m sure, what you were in for.
I was married into my situation when my mom married my step-dad and couldn’t do anything about it until I was an adult.
I think it depends on the situation. I think once folks around a “ministry” see the stuff they become responsible for endorsing it if they stay and don’t speak up and try to correct it. I think Leadership in the form of the board and elders and “mother ship” etc are very responsible when they hear of abuses and do nothing.
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Chapmaned24- Please keep us posted- I am not sure either… However truth does set the captive free
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Even though he speaks from a place of having experienced spiritual abuse, I don’t think it’s any more true or helpful to a victim of any kind of abuse to be told that/when/how they ought to forgive, or that they should focus on what they could have done differently. And I dare say, that although I’m sure spiritual abuse is painful for men and women alike, there is an added layer of pain for women. It’s difficult as a woman to hear this guy’s advice, even if he can empathize to some degree, because for those of us who felt like we didn’t even have a voice in the church system we were in simply because of our gender, to say we should have somehow been stronger was to be a kind of woman that we were told NOT to be.
When I read this post, I immediately thought about the parallels of spiritual and sexual abuse. A family member of mine works in domestic assault prevention and told me of a picture she uses to educate young people.. it’s a picture of a woman dressed very provocatively and they are asked if this woman were raped, if she were responsible for it. And it leads to a discussion that no matter how she is dressed, it is her body, and there is no circumstance that it is ok for her to be violated.
Sure we can discuss what personality traits may have that predispose us to spiritual abuse, or look back to warning signs we missed, but that isn’t helpful. If the signs were more obvious, I’m sure most of us would say we never would have gotten involved in the first place.
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Julie Anne,
I’ve read a couple of statements in which a husband and wife are conflicted with one spouse favoring the Methodology or Doctrine of a Church over the other.
As a Husband, I tend to be sensitive to my wife’s needs sighting the verse “husbands love your wive’s like Christ loved the church” Ephesians 5:25. (certainly both spouses need to stay within the perimeters of Scriptures)
Here’s the thing, both Husband and Wife need to know (and understand) the Doctrinal Statement of the Church and of the Pastor and then have a consensus, before deciding on a church which is preventative medicine for our hearts. It’s like taking Lipitor and eating right to prevent Heart attacks.
(if we don’t take the precautions, recovery of a damaged heart is slow, depending on the seriousness of the damage)
Having some understanding of what happen, will stop history from repeating itself and help the healing process.. The last thing a damaged heart needs to endure going into another Church not knowing what their Doctrinal Statement truly means. (ask questions if you see words like “Election” or “Regeneration” in a Doctrinal Statement)
Truthfully, I never considered the many different Doctrines and Methodologies that are practiced by different churches just among Baptist and Methodist.
This site may help damaged hearts as long as the broken hearts take the necessary precautions of finding a Biblically sound Church with a Doctrine (or Methodology) you and your spouse can embrace together.
Some of the pain some of your bloggers may ease up if they understood that Methodology or Doctrine is the “motive” that drove their former Pastor.
My pain eased up, when God revealed to me the Stealth approach my own former Pastor practiced his Reformed Methodology. It became less personal and easier for me to forgive, for feeling deceived. Forgiveness became part of the equation, Sometimes I wonder if I have totally forgiven him because there is a little part of me that is bitter.
I think it is a little risky to judge something we don’t fully understand. Some good Christian people really embrace the Doctrine and Methodology of Geneva Reformed, 5 Point and even Hyper-Calvinistic Style Preaching. (which some of us consider as abusive)
For some of us (not all of us) the best medicine and healing is avoiding those Churches and find a different Biblically sound Church. Letting go of your pain and bitterness of your former Pastor and possibly assume some personal responsibility for not being as knowledgeable with Doctrines and Scriptures. I’m don’t minimalize the Stealth behavior of Pastors, I just want to let it go, which isn’t always easy.
Yeah husbands, we need to be sensitive of our wives feelings.
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I honestly had some weird uncomfortable feelings or “guts” going into the church I was spiritually abused at. So, why did I stay? Because the pastors emphasized how community was messy and we needed to stay in it for the long haul no matter what. They said we should “strap in” because we were going down together and it will not always feel comfortable! Yes, the exact words and phrases were “going down” or “down we go”. It was weird…I can say that now. But, in the midst of it, I guess I thought that maybe I was wrong with my initial gut and that I needed to just hang in there…push through that weirdness and stay in it for the long haul.
I know that communities are “messy” and not perfect. And, I know that no church is perfect. However, I don’t think we try to hang in there when we are being put down, spiritually abused and oppressed. We can not stay in something that is damaging our souls.
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Hey Tammy,
I bet Jim Jones used those same words concerning the consumption of his Kool Aid.
“going down” — “drink, drink, drink” — “down we go”
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Ronnie! Nice to see you again, it has been a while. I cracked up at what you said about going to that site which shall not be named. (BTW, did you see that my former pastor is calling me: rebel egalitarian/Jezebel women? hahaha)
I just listened to the audio and it is excellent. You are absolutely right that some abusive pastors are using church memberships to exert control over their people. I’ve been talking to friends about doing a post on this topic because it keeps coming up again and again. I’m going to try to remember to add the link of that audio to my resource page. Thank you for sharing it.
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Exodus 4:24-26
24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him (MOSES), and sought to kill him (MOSES).
25 Then Zipporah (WIFE OF MOSES) took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
Notice that Moses had an oops moment in that he did not circumcise his own son, and God was going to kill Moses, but the wife of Moses TOOK CHARGE, and scolded her husband. She saved Moses from death, and she didn’t keep her mouth shut about it, either.
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Hi Julie. Yes please add anything from our site to your resource page. The internet is today what the printing press was to the reformation. We are not allowed to have a voice in “the churtch”, but the true church (the ekklesia) of Christ will not be silenced.
This is one of the reasons that we started doing the bread of life fellowship, because we and many others were tired of the lies coming from the religious system. Lies such as:
God curses you for not supporting your pastors wealthy lifestyle (tithing), God wants you to boost your pastors ego (by being at every service to listen to the same old thing again and again, after all it hurst their ego when you are not “in your place every service”), God don’t want you to cause division (even though the denominational tendencies of the religious system has done more to cause division than anything I could ever do), and “I am the man of Gawd! The man of gawd cannot be criticised, questioned, or rebuked”.
We put out teaching cd’s all over the christian community in our area exposing the lies and the deception. I am going to add a page that will show how a small group of people can blanket a community with the truth for what the used to give one hireling a weeks “tithe”.
Good to see you still faithful Julie. God bless.
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Hello,
In answer to the title question I say “No.” I don’t know what SGM stands for. Also, I looked up ‘complimentarian’ and it’s not in the dictionary.
Yikes! I’m a victim of ad abuse. Just kidding. I was surprised that your video was an ad but it was cute and clever. I say this as I sip my coffee.
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Hi Gary: Welcome! Sorry about the initials. SGM stands for Sovereign Grace Ministries. This is a group of churches under CJ Mahaney. They have recently been sued by a number of families for failing to report sex abuse, etc, and many are speaking out against CJ and the leaders for spiritual abuse, etc. You can read more at SGMSurvivors.com
Complementarian is a word made up by John Piper and maybe someone else. I”m sure someone will chime in. I’m about to head out or I’d do it. If you do a Google search on Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, you can get an idea of what complementarian means. They take the position that man is over the wife and the wife must submit to the husband. The opposite is egalitarian which means mutual submission. Strong complementarians will go to the extreme and say that if a couple does not adopt this belief of husband being the head of the home/wife, then this is a gospel issue. Whatever that means. All it means to me is they are focusing on something that is not what I see in the gospel message.
As far as the ads go – sorry, I can’t see them on my computer and have no idea how you are being entertained. Should I be worried? LOL
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Then complimentarian is like feminism- totally opposite of what you would expect it to mean.
The ad is/was a cartoon ad for coffee. Reminded me of the Keebler elves. It was sandwiched in the text, not in the margins where ads usually are. It’s not there now.
I’ve had some experience with spiritual abuse, but some other time.
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That’s an interesting observation about the word, Gary. Take note of the spelling complementarian. They say the woman completes the man and vice versa. I have a problem when leaders who primarily seem to be men make up words that aren’t in the Bible and have an obsessive focus on something that God doesn’t seem to focus on. That puts up red flags for me.
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Oh yes, Julie Anne, like the “Gospel”- when they use the Gospel of Singing or the Gospel of Worship. Making up words or an overuse of the word is quite prevalent with these guys. Also, repetition of certain phrases or words is a way to get people to accept a certain idea or “doctrine”.
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I forgot to weigh in on your blog post question ~ no, I do not believe that we need to repent for being spiritually abused for all the many reasons already given by many here (and well stated too).
BTW: Thank you Julie Anne for this blog taking on the spiritual abuse topic and the space for discussion!
Also, thanks for taking on the ridiculous “womb tomb” statements by Kevin Swanson. I’m cheering here at my computer and can only agree with everything you’ve said.
I have only one word for his non-response ~ lame.
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Thank you, Monique. Lame is putting it mildly 🙂
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Yeah, well if I said anymore it’d just be another thing I need to repent of 🙂
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Good response, Monique. You show better restraint than me. 🙂
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May I suggest that, yes, once we see the problem, we should repent for allowing ourselves to be spiritually abused. Another way of saying it is that, once we see what is happening, we should repent of anything we recognize, or come to recognize, in our outlook, assumptions, desires, motives, actions, etc. that tends to enable the abuse. However, such a call for repentance can only be supported if I am correct in thinking that repentance is simply turning from that which is bad to that which is good. It seems that confusion arises in that repentance is sometimes thought to require that we somehow beat up on ourselves as being guilty, shameful, worthless, bad, and deserving of condemnation, punishment and rejection. None of this is true. Each of us is of infinite worth, no matter what. Neither does repentance require that we somehow accept the blame for what the abuser has perpetrated. Again, if I am correct in my understanding of the Biblical usage, repentance is simply turning from what is bad to what is good, no emotional, spiritual or other form of self flagellation required. (Though formerly I commented as simply Gary, I see that somebody else is now doing the same. To distinguish between the two of us, I am now commenting as Gary W.)
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I think Crosby’s post can be a “let him who has hears to hear.” It is not for all people, and not for all victims of abuse, as the comments here show.
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Hi Gary W, I believe the reason that you have received such a vehement response to your original comments is that by your understanding of the word, “repentance” does not involve an emotional response, guilt, shame, etc., but is “simply turning from what is bad to what is good.” That definition certainly fits many, but not all, of its uses in the bible, and therefore should not be given exclusive status in that particular meaning.
For instance, When Jesus spoke of Chorazin and Bethsaida repenting (same word as in the rest of the Scripture), He included a very clear understanding that the repentance would certainly be accompanied by a public demonstration of regret and remorse, “in sackcloth and ashes.”
Also, In 2 Cor 7 Paul speaks of a type of “godly” regret and grief that leads to repentance–certainly he is not suggesting that a person no longer experiences such “godly sorrow” once the repenting happens.
To me it seems that there is more to the experience of repentance than an exclusively mental process, as you’ve suggested above, although I suppose a person could be putting on some sort of emotional show concerning his/her sin–but then that really would’t be repentance, anyway, in the biblical sense. And for sure, repentance must begin in the mind of the person who is reconsidering their decisions, behavior, beliefs, etc., and finding them to be wanting.
Moreover, your use of the word itself may have provoked such strong reactions in that in today’s use, found in modern dictionaries, the word almost always includes feelings of regret, remorse, sorrow, owning up to wrongs done, etc. It’s only fair to assume that most readers would understand the word according to its modern usage, don’t you think?
In responding to a blog that is a resting place for so many who have suffered in churches, often at the hands of false teachers who routinely demanded “repentance” of their followers–it might be better to simply assert, as you did when you clarified your response, that there is a lot to learn about ourselves when we reflect back on what led us to the abusive church, and what kept us there, and (oftentimes) by what act of courage and godliness we walked away. (And there is even more to learn about a Shepherd who rescues people from those churches!) Thanks! Ken
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In this case repentance would not be so much “I’m sorry God and I’ll change my focus and turn toward you” but “I’m sorry I find myself going this way and I turn around and get out of this dysfunction so I can get healthy.” or something like that. I did that when I was a kid years before I became a Christian. The abuse I was in was not severe but I needed to get out of there. I was like a mouse in a maze. I eventually figured out how to get through it and out. It took a while cuz I kept bumping into shoulds and oughts.
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Mod note: All 3 comments above by commenter “Gary” are from the same person.
Gary W. has only one comment in this thread and is going by Gary W. to avoid confusion with Gary (without initial).
I don’t know if this helps anyone, but I was getting confused (doesn’t take much), so there ya go . . .
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Wow! Such a thought-provoking article, Julie. Thanks for calling this to my attention. I read Mr. Crosby’s entire post and definitely have some questions about terms. While I absolutely agree that victims of spiritual abuse have spiritual and psychological “hooks” that they would do well to address in order to find healing, I squirm when I hear the term “repentance” used here. Do spiritual abuse victims need to “repent” for allowing themselves to be spiritually abused? Is that the right theological term? What role does religious brainwashing play here? We would never say that a child needs to repent for “allowing” himself or herself to be sexually abused. At what age does Mr. Crosby say that someone is responsible for allowing themselves to be abused? Since it is spiritual abuse, does chronological age really matter, or should spiritual maturity play a role? If victims of spiritual abuse are sincere as children and don’t realize they are being deceived, do they really need to repent? Repentance has to do with sin, right? I don’t see Jesus calling the 1st-century Jews to repentance for following the Pharisees who spiritually abused them. Instead I see Jesus calling the Pharisees to repentance and having compassion on the people who were like “sheep without a shepherd.” So many questions… thanks for making me unproductive for the rest of the day ;D
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Steve (Liberty), Yes, those were the kids of questions that boggled my mind as I read the article. The point you raise about what age does one become accountable is a good one. When I think of sin, I think of it as a choice to do wrong. I just do not see this as a choice in all circumstances. Hey, if you become so unproductive that it leads to your own article on the subject, let me know – I want to read it 🙂
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A victim cannot repent in the biblical meaning of the word. They can only come to grips with their situation and get out. In the case of youngsters, they don’t have the tools to get out. They CAN’T get out. When an adult realizes they are being spiritually abused they must choose to stay or go. If they stay they must choose to confront or ignore (or minister to others). If they ignore then they enter into the abuse. They are no longer victims but enablers as in the case of the sewer guy. He was a victim of abuse but he was also a victim of his own character, or lack of.
This happened to me. My wife and I were involved in a small charismatic/pentecostal church. For the first 5 years it was a healthy growing church. Then the pastor did a subtle change. I first noticed it in a sermon. It was a change in his focus but it must’ve been due to a change in doctrine. It was very slight. I talked to a friend and he started noticing it too. It wasn’t too long before my friend told me he had a run in with the pastor and he was leaving the church. Up to that time the pastor had encouraged me and others to do church ministry. I started helping with the kids during Sunday school. We had 2 midweek bible studies in different cities led by 2 good men. The pastor combined the studies into one and led it himself. He was becoming controlling. I commented to a friend that I was questioning the pastor’s new direction. The pastor’s wife (she was more controlling than her husband) overheard my comment and told me if I didn’t like it I should leave. I took her advice. When I told the pastor we were leaving and why, his wife was evesdropping again and shouted out that I was lying. It felt good to drive away that day. It had been almost a year since the subtle change began.
I did some church hopping that summer. I discovered that some churches liked to condemn the church down the raod and pat themselves on the back. But they were guilty of the very thing they condemned. For example, one pastor’s sermon was about how friendly his church was. I almost laughed out loud. No one had greeted me when I came in and no one greeted me on the way out. Another church condemned a church down the road for being proud and bragged about their -um- lack of pride.
There’s a happy end to this rant. My wife and I prayed and prayed. We had been praying from the time we first noticed the change in our pastor. After visiting a dozen or so local churches (I avoided the ones i knew were dead or cold) we went to a church where we felt at home. The people were very outgoing and inclusive. The sermons were biblically based. The worship was solid and focused on the Lord. We were home at last! We made friends with a lot of wholesome caring Christians. We were free to minister and use our gifts. We’ve been involved there for almost 28 years. I wholeheartedly recommend my church to anyone. God is there.
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The idea that we need to feel guilty for other people’s actions is unconscionable. Repent no, self-forgiveness, most definately yes. Forgive ourselves for every ounce of guilt or shame we may feel as the result of someone else’s behavior. We are only responsible for our own responses.
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Victoria, I agree 100%.
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Re-posted your article on my blog, Julie. Does that count as an article from me? 😉 Seriously, though, I asked Dr. Crosby a number of my questions and he graciously took time to reply on the original article he wrote. You can check out the clarifications he offers. I’ll mull it over and probably post something soon. Again, thanks for making us think about this, Julie. Such a great dialogue!
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How cool is that?! That’s interesting because I was thinking of sending Dr. Crosby a note to ask for clarification. Great job, Steve. I’m going to check that out soon.
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JulieAnne wrote:
“THIS is why we need to keep talking about spiritual abuse – because if we go through it once and then just move on (repenting, forgiving the way the Survivor Blog Naysayers want us to respond) without trying to understand what caused us to get to that place to begin with, we will likely fall into the trap again. It does take some deep soul searching. And that’s hard work.”
This is exactly what happened to me. I moved on too quickly and thought I had really worked through the issues after I left an IFB church. I recognized the legalism and learned to unravel that. Later on, I found this cool, modern church for the young (Calvary Chapel,) only to find out much later that they were truly the same as the Independent Fundamental Baptists.
Both church movements have authoritarian governance without meaningful accountability. They both have legalism just with different stickler points. They both draw controlling, manipulative leaders who have total control of the finances.
Both groups employ love-bombing to draw you in, loudly praise their fellowship as the most loving and the best doctrine, denigrate other churches; then once hooked, you absorb the expectations and begin giving back as they want. You lose yourself. Who you are and how God has made you is almost irrelevant, because you are there to serve the vision of the pastor. It really isn’t the Body working together, just the Body serving the Pastor.
I determined after being given the left boot of fellowship for standing up to a leader in habitual sin in a Calvary Chapel, that I would find out all I could about spiritual abuse and not repeat this cycle again. I cannot believe how much I’ve learned over the last 3+ years and how consistent the abusers are. I can spot them much more quickly, even when their facade is ever so carefully groomed. I greatly appreciate all of the blogs, bloggers, and posters online that help the abused and how you all stand up for one another when the attackers either bust in … or slither in stealthily.
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JulieAnne,
If we don’t pursue an understanding of the Doctrine of the Church we are attending, we make ourselves vulnerable for spiritual abuse.
The best remedy for much of the pain I have gone through is when I pursued through prayer and reading scriptures, is when God revealed to me a partial understanding of my former Pastor’s “Stealth or Covert” behavior of his Doctrine.
If I didn’t pursue an understanding, I would be in a lot more pain today not having a clue of the many different “Methodologies” that exist within Churches that profess the Gospel.
You have an opportunity to free much of the pain to some of your readers while educating them to be more informed while encouraging them to educate their own friends and family. (without judging Methodologies, something I know I’m guilty of)
In addition they will be less bitter and less critical (and in some cases more forgiving) of Churches or friends that profess to be Calvinist or Hyper-Calvinist that are consumed with “Election Theology, who chooses to embrace that Methodology.
The only remedy I can offer for physical abuse is jail time.
Mark
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Mark,
I hope you will be one of the many teachers for us (here at Spiritual Sounding Board), admonishing us to be truly Christian in our ecclesiology, stressing, of course, how a Christian Doctrine of the Church must necessarily be Biblical.
There is the matter of the Clarity of Scripture in all of this too.
I appreciated your comment, thanks. Please help advance the conversations we need to be having.
David
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JulieAnne,
Doesn’t the word “Repent” mean change? If I didn’t do anything when I was enduring my Pastor’s “Covert” behavior then essentially I would be further burdened.
Not pursuing real “Truth” would’ve meant being “unrepentant” or being stagnant which would’ve exacerbated my own personal ignorance.
To me the word “Repentance” may have a different meaning than to others. I had to “change” the way I look at Baptist Churches and realize even their Doctrines and Methodologies aren’t all the same.
Some of your readers pain differ and some are simular to what I experienced, to the one’s that endured what I went through Repentence or changing was essential in order to prevent history from repeating itself. And for me what I went through was preventable making me realize the need to assume some personal responsibility.
I will add, not all Calvary Churches are the same, I seeked guidance from a Non-Calvinist Calvary Church, at the height of the ordeal I went through.
Brother in Christ
Mark
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Mark: In addition they will be less bitter and less critical (and in some cases more forgiving) of Churches or friends that profess to be Calvinist or Hyper-Calvinist that are consumed with “Election Theology, who chooses to embrace that Methodology.
Can you please explain how you see they will be less bitter/critical? I’m not sure I am following you. I’m find myself to be more critical to those types of churches because I see the carnage left behind.
And also, could you please elaborate on your definition of repent? Thanks!
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I think Mark is doing the classic minimizing, and shifting in order that no one takes responsibility for the abuse, except for the abused. That is wrong, Mark.
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JulieAnne,
If I had the same understanding of Doctrine back at the height of the pain I was enduring, I would’ve never have gone through sleepless nights. My Pastor may have been very much a “Stealth” Hyper-Calvinist which his friends seemed to endure even though they didn’t fully understand where he was coming from, wouldn’t have affected me personally.
It would never have gotten “personal” if I understood Doctrine. My situation may slightly differ from yours and because I can clearly see what I went through was preventable making me realize I have to assume some personal responsibity.
My Former Pastor’s “Methodology” was clearly unlike any I witnessed. (In 30 years of attending a Baptist Church) He actually modeled more emphasis of a Guilt, Doubt and Works base Methodology with minimal redemption of Sins, that I endured growing up Catholic, which at first made me think my former Pastor was some kind of “Covert” Lutheran or Methodist operating in a Baptist Church. (oddly, there was more redemption language in the Catholic Church than what my former Pastor Preached behind the Pulpit)
I was intimidated because I didn’t have the kind of basic Biblical background needed to ask the right and tasteful questions in a Spiritual or maybe in his case an Academic way. In my case maybe I needed to go through this pain in order to open my eye’s further into seeking guidance from the Father and getting into the Bible.
So now that I have a little more clarity I realize there are Churches that embrace New Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism and that is their choice. I harbor no personal “ill will” toward Hyper-Calvinist Churches and I certainly wouldn’t have experienced “ill feelings” toward my former Pastor, realizing he was dug into a Methodology that the Seminary he attended, Endoctrinated him into Practicing.
With the knowledge I have now, I would’ve simply stopped attending his services sooner than I did. I’m sure we would’ve been more cordial with each other outside the Church walls rather than ignoring each other.
Now that the Father has given me a trained eye I avoid Hyper-Calvinist Churches. I still feel bad and have struggled to stop judging, being bitter and I sometimes wonder if I have fully forgiven him. But much of what I was feeling was stimulated by my own ignorance and would never have existed in the first place had I been more obediant in God’s word.
I firmly believe that my former Pastor was trained to not fully disclose or fully volunteer his Doctrine or his Methodology while being aggressive to be defenders of their Methodology. (based on correspondance with Paul’s Passing Thought’s) Which may or may not be the case for you.
I know that God has opened my eye’s, the likelihood of history repeating itself is dimished.
Brother in Christ
David
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A good example of a healthy church is how they handle deception. My church lost our pastor about ten years ago due to an overzealous elder and an otherwise weak elder board. It took a long time to deal with the problem but we did. The overzealous guy is gone. What happened next was a part of our getting healthier. We went a few years without a senior pastor. A pulpit committee was formed and finally someone was recommended and came and spoke at our church. We all liked him. He was doctrinally sound and verry immersed in scripture. We had an open meeting and anyone could ask this man questions. There were a lot of good questions. He seemed to be a good candidate for lead shepherd. By the way, this is a well known Christian leader. He has (or had?) a radio program and was a close associate to Ravi Zacherias, who I have a lot of respect for. Can I say innocence by association?
We voted and the vote was something like 500 to 1 in favor (or 1000 to 2 or 3). The man was a good teacher. I came to call him Doctor Doctor cuz he had 2 Phds. He began by preaching through Ephesians. His sermons were very comprehensive and cerebral. I started hearing complaints that folks couldn’t keep up. My wife quit coming cuz she said she didn’t get a lot of what the pastor was talking about and she couldn’t take anymore. I had to concentrate fully every time. I was getting a lot out of it but after a few months I reached my limit. I quit going. I started hearing from friends that he wanted to revamp the church. He wanted to do away with all ministry except Sunday morning worship. He wanted everyone to become evangelists and that would be like the early church. I thought that was pretty idealistic. There was nothing wrong with a man trying to follow that model but it was wrong of this man to enter in to a moral agreement with a church and then try to change things so drasticaslly. My church has a lot of worthwhile ministry going on. He should’ve started his own church.
When I heard that my Christian friends were following the biblical model to deal with the situation I went back. The man was confronted first by individuals, then by the church leaders. He wasn’t interested in admitting any wrongdoing and he was fired.
We were victims of sermonic abuse. lol All that to say that healthy churches are far from perfect but I love my church and I love my pastors, leaders, and friends.
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Gary,
Interesting that he would start with Ephesians. Must be Calvinist, huh? Next was probably Romans 9? I always like to start at the Beginning, i.e. Genesis 1:1, and John 1:1 myself. In the OT during one of the feasts of God, it is a requirement that all of Genesis thru Deuteronomy was read in a 7 day period. How long did it take to get thru Ephesians?
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Ed – you’re killing me. At former church, kids were in Ephesians the entire time we were there. Started Ephesians 1 and ended up at Eph 1:16 when we left 2 years later.
And . . the Sunday sermons were in Romans. Started Romans 12 and ended up in Romans 13:7 when we left 2 yrs later.
C.R.A.Z.Y. Slow.
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Chapmaned24,
I can only speak for myself. I know my former Pastor would find it difficult to choke down acknowledging being “Stealth or Covert” about disclosing his doctrine. I don’t think I am sugar-coating this thread by claiming the need for myself to accept a little personal responsibility whether or not my former Pastor accepts personal responsibility is between him and God.
My personal ignorance of not being Biblically equipped was a handicap and is partially why I endured abuse. If I hadn’t prayed and gotten into the word, I’m not sure God would’ve revealed to me that our former Pastor was a “Stealth” Calvinist or a Hyper-Calvinist in the first place.
And if God didn’t reveal it to me, then I would never have been able to disclose it to the Members of the Church. We were an isolated rural church unaware of the Doctrinal Strife within the SBC that seem to have exacerbated more from South of the Mason Line and East of the Mississippi, which is a reckless generalization that kept us from asking the kind of Doctrinal Questions when seeking a Pastor.
I not really sure how to respond to your statement because your situation may be different from mine and when you generalize not really knowing my heart, (at the very least) I find your statement “reckless”.
Brother in Christ
Mark
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JulieAnne,
I think I may have answered your Repent Question @ 9:48 on a posting above yours.
I’m not sure if I can continue to respond to anymore questions or continue to post here. I have exposed my own personal experiences and how Jesus has guided me through them. If I have made any reckless generalizations or assumptions to you or anybody else I send my deepest apology.
I also send my regards and pray many blessings to chapened24, who I don’t think I can have sincere dialogue based on his/her 10:27 a.m. posting addressed to me. I don’t want to be arguementitive with chapened24 or insensitive to his/her interpretations.
Brother in Christ
Mark
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Our former pastor, Doctor Doctor, used one verse a week in Ephesians to pretty much preach the whole bible every week. So however many verses there are in the book of Ephesians that’s how many weeks it would’ve taken if he hadn’t been let go. That would’ve been 3 years. The sermons were not boring but if you fell behind you could fall asleep. That’s why you have to be quiet in church cuz some folks are sleeping. I can’t imagine 16 verses in 2 years for kids. By the way, in keeping with the thread- I do not repent of posting this post. ;^D We’d have to start a new thread on postal abuse. Don’t get me started. jk
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Mark – I really like good dialogue. I like challenging myself on topics that were spoon-fed to me. I want to own what I believe now, not let some pastor feed me his brand of religion or Christianity. I want it to come from God and His Word and let the Holy Spirit speak to me.
Don’t let Ed’s strong words deter you. It’s good to wrestle these things. Ed is reasonable and explains things well. Give it a go. My brain is mush today and I have an interview tonight at 8PM or I’d probably engage my brain more on this, but I’m literally spent after the media blitz.
All this to say is that you’ve been through abuse and I value your voice here.
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Mark,
I do understand what you are saying, I really do. But, if I may, without offending you, people go to church to be taught, rather than going into it already knowing. I am sorry if I offended you, but spiritual knowledge takes a lot and lot of time.
There was a time that I thought that all Christian churches believed in the same thing. Is that my fault? I thought the word Christian said it all.
As the Bible states, faith comes by hearing, and how can they hear without someone preaching. The preacher is supposed to be the pastor to a flock, and feeding them food, and that food is the word of God. God told Peter to feed my sheep. I do find it hard to believe that anyone would put any blame on any of the sheep (who are dumb to begin with), when it is the shepherds responsibility.
God loves justice, and someone is responsible, and it isn’t the victim for putting themselves in the position to being brainwashed. I am sorry, Mark, but I can’t blame the victim in any of it, but I do understand your point.
Romans 10:14-17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
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Julie Anne,
Yes, I see the over emphasis on the teachings of Ephesians and Romans (only a selected few chapters, with a few verses purposefully omitted, i.e. Romans 5:13) to be so much of a dead giveaway of Calvinism.
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chapened24,
I don’t think anybody has suggested that we blame the “victim”. I didn’t see anything in my statements that solely “shifted” all blame from one to the other. I’m not offended by your assertions, I just thought it was a little reckless and that I would be wasting my time qualifying some personal responsibility. By your assumptions you had made up your mind that I was practicing “classic” minimalizing, whatever that means.
Attending (and or Serving) for nearly 30 years in a Baptist Church doesn’t provide much wiggle room for being naive, on my part. I should’ve been Biblically more literate (and more Doctrinally literate) than I was. Fortunately, I leaned on Jesus to guide me, which I should’ve been doing from the very beginning of our Former Pastor’s tenure.
Ed, I have to believe not everybody that professes to have endured Spiritual Abuse needs to acknowledge personal responsibility, but in my case I know my own circumstance.
If I didn’t get into the Bible and research Google, I probably would think Hyper-Calvinism is a form of gum disease that rotted your teeth.
(and less understanding of what my former Pastor was about, even now it is still very sketchy)
Brother in Christ
Mark
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Ed,
18 months ago if you had asked me what Hyper-Calvinism was, I might have proclaimed that it was a bad gum disease that rotted your teeth.
I can’t say you offended me with your assertion that I was praticing “Classic” Minimalizing. I didn’t see anything in my postings that I was attempting to isolate blame to the abused. By your assumptions you had your mind made up and I didn’t think it was worth having a meaningful dialogue on this thread.
Attending (and or serving) for 30 years in a Baptist Church doesn’t leave a lot of wiggle room of being naive, on my part. Had I been Biblically and Doctrinally more literate, the abuse I endured, would not have been as severe.
Had I leaned on Jesus, when I first witnessed my former Pastor’s Methodology which was unlike anything I witnessed and seeked the Holy Spirit’s guidance, I’m sure I would’ve dug further in the Bible and researched Google and would’ve left the church sooner than I did and I would’ve revealed to the Membership that the Pastor was some kind of 5 Point Preacher.
Ed, everybody’s circumstance is different, in my case I know what I should’ve done. I didn’t come to the conclusions of taking on some personal responsibility until long after the Pastor of our church resigned.
Brother in Christ
David
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Mark, while your point is well taken in by me, I see you blaming yourself, a victim of circumstance. How can anyone repent for being a victim?
Had I known_________then I wouldn’t have___________.
Well, dah. But don’t blame yourself due to lack of knowledge. The vulnerable just want to love the Lord, because they heard about Jesus from someone. They just want to learn more and more. They trust the man behind the pulpit, and why should they not? They go there to learn.
The teacher is responsible, not the student.
I had no clue or idea that Baptist churches were even in the Calvinist belief system until about a year ago. But, then again, I was never a Baptist, either. But a few of my friends do attend a Baptist church. I stumbled recently on a web site that is a “reformed” Baptist site: http://www.reformedreader.org/ and it goes into a lot of detail in regards to Baptists being Calvinists.
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