Pride goes before destruction,and a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18
I think there was a reason why our Wednesday evening services were not taped. The truth would have been undeniably exposed. Instead, we are left to deal with people like FB who say our problem is that we have an issue of authority with our former pastor and we are chronic complainers and grumblers.
Edwin Young, a pastor from Junction City, Kansas wasn’t as smart as our former pastor as far as recording evidence. In this video (audio) clip, you get to hear obnoxious “preaching”, shaming, belittling, trash-talking women, etc. A whole lot of anger rises up within me when I hear stuff like this.
Why do I post this? Because sometimes people get sucked into a church and their “normal” is really not normal at all. Sometimes it takes listening to something like this or reading another person’s story – to have it one step removed – in order to make the connection. I think this is why Jesus told parables. His stories resonated better that way.
I have a hard time thinking that I allowed myself to remain under abusive teaching for two years (whoa – I just noticed my choice of words – “remain under” – wow – that sure slipped out – I was “under”?????? I’m going to stew on that for a bit. Is it okay to be under someone’s teaching?) I don’t know how someone could remain at a church like this. And what really irritates me is how the men seem to enjoy this kind of trash talk on women. Gang mentality? What would it be like for a wife to sit next to her husband while he’s getting excited about trashing women? I know what I’d be thinking: “Oh, yes, honey, I’ve got some good supper for you when we get home.” Can you say, “Kibbles and Bits”?
A worthless man plots evil, and his speech is like a scorching fire. Proverbs 16:27
It doesn’t stop there. Evidently there is a history of abuse going on at that church. Edwin Young abruptly resigned and something fishy is going on with his son as reported here:
JUNCTION CITY, Kan. (WIBW) — The congregation at a Junction City church has been left stunned in light of an alleged sex scandal and police investigation.
Sources say Edwin Young, the former pastor at Faith Tabernacle Apostolic Church recently and abruptly resigned. This week, his son, 25-year-old Jordan Young, the church’s music minister, was arrested by Junction City Police on suspicion of sex crimes involving children. Those close to the church say he also works in the youth ministry.
He was taken into custody at the Junction City Police Department at 11:30 AM on Monday, August 13, 2012 for Aggravated Indecent Liberties With a Child, Attempted Criminal Sodomy and Solicitation of a Child.
But wait . . . . there’s more. In this audio clip you get to hear the pastor call women “heifers” and men “oxen”. Amazing theatrics here: yelling, nearly crying, carrying on so much that he can hardly catch his breath. Yea, the world is watching pastors like this.
Today is the 16th of the month and here are verses from Proverbs 16 that have much wisdom and could be applied to this situation.
Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord; be assured, he will not go unpunished. Proverbs 16:5
Good sense is a fountain of life to him who has it, but the instruction of fools is folly. Proverbs 16:22
Gracious words are like a honeycomb, sweetness to the soul and health to the body. Proverbs 16:24
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. Proverbs 16:25
For more information, SpiritualAbuse.org has compiled more on this story here.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
PacoYou ask…“Didn't Paul say Follow me as I follow Christ?” Well – kinda. – In 1 Cor 11:1 KJV – Paul writes…Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.But – It depends on which version you use. ;-)ASV – Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.BBE – So take me for your example, even as I take Christ for mine.NIV – Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.NKJV – Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.This word – Follower – in the Greek is Strongs #3402 – and means – “an imitator.”Imitator – Dictionary – a person who copies the behavior or actions of another.And Paul is imitating Christ – Which is what Jesus ask us to do – Follow Jesus.I do NOT see Paul calling himself a “Leader” here.Paul is calling himself a follower, an imitator, of Jesus Christ.Paul is giving us an example – He’s imitating Jesus – And we should do the same.Paul, also encourages the rest of us believers – to be – “Led” by the Spirit…Rom 8:14 For as many as are “led by the Spirit of God,” they are the sons of God.And – Jesus said, many times, in different ways – Follow me.Never once does Jesus say – to follow a man – “A Mere Fallible Human.”My Sheep – Hear My Voice – I know them – And they Follow Me. John 10:27.Jesus, also said – You can’t serve two masters – Who do you want to “Serve?”Jesus – Who died for you? – Jesus – Who shed His Blood for you?Or do you want to “Serve” – A Master – Who is “A mere Fallible Human?————PacoWhy would anyone want – a man – A“Mere Fallible Human” – as a – “Leader?”When “the Spirit of God” can be their – “Leader?” When you can “Hear His Voice” and “Follow Jesus?”
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You people are crazy!! Just because you don't LIKE to SUBMIT and OBEY those who have the RULE Over you, doesn't mean that you can ignore that part of the scripture. Trying to pretend that the Apostles were not leaders is completely ludicrous! Have any of you even received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance?
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Someone figured out how to do a search or the word "leader" in their Bible program!Too bad they didn't figure out how to get the right CONTEXT!The Bible DOES warn against bad leaders, but does NOT teach us that all leaders are bad.Nice try!
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If we are all to just follow the Spirit, then there is no need for preachers right? No need for the Apostles to write letters to the churches. It's a shame they wasted their time, we should just eliminate the Bible altogether. It was written by men. In your erroneous doctrine they had no authority to write such things! The church members should have gathered together and voted on every issue. The churches should have written letters to Paul telling him how to act and behave! It's a shame the Bible got it all backwards! The real shame is that people may actually believe your man-made theology, because you twist and pervert the scripture to TRY to make it fit your agenda.
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You most likely just hit the nail on the head. Keep the Faith!
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I am sure the Southern Baptist movement is deeply appreciative of your membership and insight. If the Pastoral staff preaches something the congregation doesn't like or approve of, then what happens?
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Hey Paco,Just disregard the Bible, and listen to A. Amos Love. Let this person try to prove their point by using scriptures out of context. "no man can serve two masters". Really? Was the Bible talking about ministry here? Was Jesus talking about pastors here? Keep twisting it, A. Amos. You are promoting false doctrine.
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Amen Preacher! Keep it REAL!
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Simply SavedMuch agreement – When you say…‘You people are crazy!!”Absolutely – I’m Crazy – For Jesus.- Thanks for noticing. ;-)And I would even admit to being…Very passionate about Jesus – Infatuated with Jesus – And – Devoted to – Jesus.And – FYI – You made a statement – That’s NOT quite correct – It needs a tweak…You write…“Just because you don't LIKE to SUBMIT and OBEY those who have the RULE Over you, doesn't mean that you can ignore that part of the scripture.”A slight correction – I NO longer – “LIKE to SUBMIT and OBEY” – those who…Say – they have “The Rule Over” you – But – “Ignore” some basic scriptures.Here are a few questions to ask – And verses to check…To see if “Pastors who Abuse” can “Qualify” to have “The Rule Over” anyone.1 – Are they living examples of – NOT “being lords over God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV2 – Are they living examples of – lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV3 – Are they living examples of – esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV4 – Are they living examples of – submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV5 – Are they living examples of – prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV6 – Are they living examples of – being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV7 – Are they living examples of – NOT “exercising authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43.These are qualities -and qualifications – that are very much lacking in…“Pastors who Abuse” and “Pastors addicted to Exercising Authority.”Does anyone have to…“SUBMIT and OBEY” – “Pastor/Reverend/Leaders” – Who do NOT meet these basic “Qualifications?” Who do NOT “Qualify?”NOT anymore – Thank You JesusWhen you believe the lie you start to die…
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Simple SavedI think you were referring to Heb 13:17, when you wrote about “SUBMIT and OBEY.”Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: “for they watch for your souls…” In my experience – With “Pastors who Abuse” and “Pastors addicted to Exercising Authority” – I never met anyone – Who claimed to have “The Rule Over” me – Actually “watch for my soul.” BUT – They wanted me – Nay – indoctrinated, conditioned me to – Pay Pray and Obey.They said – They were watching for my soul – but…Seemed whenever there was a dis-agreement – My Soul – was no longer important.Jesus did say about the “Religious Leaders” of His day…Do as they say but NOT as they do – because they say and do NOT. Mat 23:3Seems to be a notable defect in “Pastors who Abuse.” Say one thing – do another.As you know – When Pastor/Leaders are challenged – disagreed with – and their Power – Profit- Prestige – Honor – Glory – Recognition – Reputation – is on the line…Things can get ugly pretty fast. Submitting one to another goes out the window.Seems the “Pastors who Abuse” and the “Pastors addicted to “Exercising Authority”Have a known defect – Check it out – What do you think? – Look familiar?NPD – Narcissistic Personality Disorder. (Narcissistic Pastor Disorder)1 – Has a grandiose sense of self-importance. Expects to be recognized as superior.2 – Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance…3 – Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, …..or should associate with, other special or high status people (or institutions)4 – Requires excessive admiration5 – Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations,…..automatic compliance with his or her expectations.6 – Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., …..takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends7 – Lacks empathy: …..is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others8 – Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her9 – Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.Seems this defect – NPD – resides with many – Who have taken “Titles/Postions”NOT found in the Bible – Pastor/Reverend/Leader…What do you think? – Look familiar?Are these defects in any “Pastor/Reverend/Leaders” – You know?Does anyone have to…“SUBMIT and OBEY” – “Pastor/Reverend/Leaders” – Who do NOT “watch for your souls?”NOT anymore – Thank You JesusJesus love me this I know…
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Amos – Abusive pastors and those led astray like to use verses like Hebrews 13:17, but they miss the meaning of the word rule because it doesn't translate well. I did a post on this particular verse a while back because it is a common one for abusive pastors to use. Pastors who show humility are not going to lord this verse over their congregants. A better translation would be "persuade" instead of "rule". Check out this guy's great study of Hebrew's 13:17. And I love how you mention checking the fruit in the pastor's life to see if they are meeting the qualifications for church leaders. That is a great point that should be considered..
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You're right of course, there are those will will misuse and and abuse the office of ministry. However, that does not mean that God is flawed or that His plan is flawed. I'm sorry that you've had some bad experiences in the past, but that does not remove your obligation to the Word of God. You DO have to Submit to and Obey those who DO watch for your souls. That is God's plan. You will not find another way in His Word.Jesus does love you, and He said if you love Him, Keep His commandments.
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Many here like to focus on the obligation of the ministry (and the ministry DOES have obligations), but don't forget that the verse says OBEY AND SUBMIT. I suppose that some of you would accuse Peter of "lacking humility".
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You seems to be suggesting that we obey and submit simply because of their "position". Hebrews 13:17 is yanked out of the chapter and waved for all the congregants to see: "Hey, I'm your authority and the Bible says you are to obey and submit because we watch out for your souls. "Why do those who yank that verse out not also mention these verses earlier in the chapter:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.This implies that we are supposed to be testing strange doctrines and the conduct of our pastors. We must use our critical thinking skills. If our pastors do not exhibit good conduct, do they have the right to rule over us and do we have the right to let them?
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I just noticed an error in my comment above where I said: A better translation would be "persuade" instead of "rule". Change the last "rule" to "obey". A better translation would be "persuade" instead of "obey".
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Simply Saved said: You DO have to Submit to and Obey those who DO watch for your souls. That is God's plan. You will not find another way in His Word.How are you defining the words: submit and obey?Are you looking at the original Greek or taking today's common meaning?
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preacherThanks for the warning – You write – September 1, 2012 8:51 AM…“Keep twisting it, A. Amos. You are promoting false doctrine.”Reminders about “promoting false doctrine” is appreciated.I’ve done that in the past – And – I probably will be “promoting false doctrine” again.It seems to be the way of "Mere Fallible Humans" trying to speak for God. Oy Vey!!! :-(I was ordained – I was in leadership – I was “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles..And I Preached. Yes – I was a Preacher. It was “Humbling” to realize much of whatI Preached was “False Doctrine.” – “Doctrines of men” “Commndments of men”“Traditions of men.” that nullify “The word of God.” Mark 7:13. I’ll give you a few examples of common belief – NOT found in the Bible.Here’s the first one….1 – “Go to Church.” Yup – I used to Preach – Go to Church – Attend Church etc…It’s interesting when you do a study looking for “Truth.” Looking for Jesus.I read and re-read – Every verse with the word “church” – I wanted to understand.And “Go to Church” is NOT in the Bible. I found NO was told to “Go to Church.”Seems “Church” always refers to believers – Called out ones – and – an assembly.Jesus – He is the head of the body ( the Ekklesia, the called out ones) The Church. Col 1:18.It never refered to a building, an organization, or a 501 (c) 3, Corporation the IRS calls church.Don’t know if you ever checked or not – but – In the Bible, I found…NO one ever *Led* “A Church.”NO one ever *joined* “A Church.”NO one ever *went to* “A Church.” NO one ever *Tithed* to “A Church.”NO one ever brought their friends to “A Church.”NO one ever applied for membership in “A Church.”NO one ever gave silver, gold, or money, to “A Church.”NO buildings with steeples and crosses called “A Church.”NO – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews. ;-)Seems those are -“Doctrines of men” “Commndments of men” “Traditions of men.”Now – I Preach – You are the Church of God – You can’t “Go” someplace you are. ;-)And God NO longer dwells in buildings made with the hands of man. He lives in You – It’s Christ in you – the hope of Glory – And – You are – the house of God – The temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you.You mentioned – August 27, 2012 12:33 PM – There are 5 distinct facets of ministry:I’d like to offer 7 more facets of ministry – That the Ekklesia is responcible for.And the Ekklesia – the called out ones – The Body of Christ – You and Me – Are…1. Kings. 2. Priests. 3. Brides. 4. Servants. 5. Sons. 6. Disciples. 7. Ambassadors.1 + 2 – Kings and PriestsAnd hath made us “kings and priests” unto God and his Father;Revelations 1:6 Hast made us unto our God “kings and priests:” and we shall reign on the earth.Revelations 5:10 3 – Brides For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD* of hosts is his name; Isaiah 54:5 … Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.Revelations 21:94 – ServantsIf any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be:John 12:26And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;Acts 2:18 5 – SonsBut as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,John 1:12And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts…Galations 4:66 – DisciplesThen said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself…Matthew 16:24John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.7 – AmbassadorsNow then we are ambassadors for Christ…2nd Corinthians 5:20… a faithful ambassador is health.Proverbs 13:17 And, since an Ambassodor is – The highest – diplomatic representationthat “ONE” soverign power – sends to another…In the body of Christ – NO one is higher than an “Ambassodor for Christ.” ;-)And That's me – and you – The Ekklesia of God.Jesus is way cool
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Simply SavedI appreciate your concern – Thanks – And agree – when you say…“I'm sorry that you've had some bad experiences in the past, but that does not remove your obligation to the Word of God.”Yes – The benefit is – The Spiritual Abuse” drove me to Jesus.And Jesus is “the Word of God.” And The Bible is “the Word of God.”And as you depend on Jesus – The Doctrines of Men” begin to fall away.Jesus is the best teacher – Yes???John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, “he shall teach you” ALL things… John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be “ALL taught of God.”Deuteronomy 4:36 Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*that *He might instruct thee:* Jesus instructed His Disciples – NOT to be called “Rabbi…For there is “ONE” Teacher – And you are ALL Brethren. Mat 23:8 NASB And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd. John 10:16 One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice – One leader{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Jullie Anne – Preacher – Simply SavedHere’s my understanding NOW for Heb 13 – “Obey’ and “have the rule over.”—————-Heb 13:7Remember them which have “the rule over you,” **who have spoken unto you the word of God:**whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.Heb 13:17 “Obey” them that have “the rule over you,” and submit yourselves: **for they watch for your souls**..Heb 13:24 Salute all them that have “the rule over you,” and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.—————-This Greek word “hegeomai” is 28 times in the NT.Only 3 times as, “have the rule over” all in Heb 13.Moderne translations often use “leader” here.It is Strongs #2233 hegeomai. In the KJV it is translated 5 different ways.KJV – count 10, think 4, esteem 3, have rule over 3, be governor 2,Hegeomai does mean, to lead, it also means “to go before.” “To esteem.’A guide who goes before? – Who you esteem? Or – I’m the leader/boss? Who you “Will” Obey? – Out of Fear?Seems the qualification to who we “Obey” and “Submit” to are…Those – “who have spoken unto you the word of God.” Heb 13:7 And – those that – “watch for your souls.” Heb 13:17. NOT a “Title/Position” pastor/overseer/elder – there are NO “Titles” in Heb 13.BUT, someone who has given you God’s Word – And watches for your soul. :-)This “hegeomai” is being attentive to me. Speaking the word of God and watching for my soul.Not demanding that I “Obey” and “Submit” to them. That part is voluntary. I’ve spoken the word of God to you ALL. Yes?And, I’m “watching for your soul.” Whether you ALL believe it or not.Can I demand that you “Obey” and “Submit” to me?If “Pastors who Abuse” aren’t “watching for your soul” do you “Obey” and “Submit?”Not anymore. Thank you Jesus. 🙂
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Jullie Anne – Preacher – Simply SavedIt’s interesting to me that “hegeomai” “have the rule over,”is also translated “esteem” 3 times.Php 2:3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in “lowliness of mind” let each *esteem* other better than themselves.1Th 5:13 And to *esteem* them very highly in love for their work’s sake…The same word, “hegeomai,” which many refer to as leader/boss, (a high place, and Jesus always recommended the low place,)is used when encouraging those who need to be in “lowliness of mind” and to “esteem” others better than themselves.The way I see it now; If someone insists that they are God’s leader,And they “have the rule over anyone,” then I can check them out with these quidelines. They need to be in “lowliness of mind” and “esteeming” others better than themselves. :-)This “ hegeomai” is different then today’s leader/boss. Yes?Don’t find many “leaders/pastors/elders” **esteeming others** better then themselves today. Or submitting one to another.They seem to want the TOP spot. The honor, the glory.You can tell which “hegeomai,” “leader/boss,” or “guide/goes before” is present when confronted with opposition or a different opinion. What fruit do we see when today’s “overseer/elder” is challenged; “Accusation” “ Argument” “Ridicule”“Name Calling” “Put Downs”or “lowliness of mind?” “Submitting, one to another?”NOT much “discernment” is needed when looking for “lowliness of mind.”
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Jullie Anne – Preacher – Simply SavedThe Greek word for “Obey” in Heb 13:17 is the root word for faith.It is Strongs #3982 peitho – pi'-tho and is translated in the KJV asKJV – persuade 22, trust 8, obey 7, have confidence 6, believe 3, Hmmm? persuade, trust, have confidence, believe.Maybe that word “Obey” then, is differentfrom how we understand “Obey” today. Yes?The very next verse, Heb 13:18, uses #3982 peitho also.Only this time it is NOT obey. The word is TRUST.Heb 13:18Pray for us: for we *TRUST* we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.Paul uses #3982 peitho, here in, Gal 5:10.I have *confidence* in you through the Lord.Maybe we need to go to God and ask Him what He really means here in Heb 13:17 for “Obey.” ;-)———-Here is a word study for “peitho” from Rick Saenz, living on a farm in south central Kentucky. He lists all the scriptures using “pietho.” Interesting read also.http://drycreekchronicles.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/word-study-peitho/———-Here’s Heb 13:17 in the “NKJAV.”That’s the “New King James Amos Version.” :-)Heb 13:17Be persuaded by, trust, and obey, those you have confidence in those you esteem as they guide you and think to submit yourselves:for they watch, pray and are paying attention to your soul…Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus…
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It is not a matter of liking or approving, it is a matter of whether it is true to the New Testament and to the teachings of Jesus. There is a lot of theology that is not Bible based and preachers can go off on tangents that are not supported by the Bible. If so, they need correction, and if they refuse correction, then the church must remove them and replace them. It has happened more than once.One of the reasons we have so many denominations is that pastors have disagreed with other pastors about the character and nature of God, the means of salvation, and how we are to go about serving God. If so many preachers disagree with each other, they can not all be correct!!! Since God is not the author of error, that means that a whole lot of preachers are in error, and the corrective is a congregation that prays and listens for the Holy Spririt and is willing to correct the errant pastor.
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All of this is based on a mistranslation in the KJV, and the fact that most subsequent translators have chosen to default to meanings close to the KJV when there is a Greek word or phrase with multiple possible meanings or multiple shadings of meaning that are different than the KJV choice. Keep in mind that the KJV was translated in large part from the Vulgate, not the Greek, and that we now have much earlier copies of much of the Greek New Testament.The KJV was intentionally slanted in favor of patriarchy and hierarchy, and I believe was, in part, the result of the sin of the translators in accommodating King James so as to defend his prerogatives, including the devine right of kings, and a preference for male rule (given that there were female pretenders to the throne at various points in history.As an example of how ridiculous the translation gets, in Ephesians, we are told to "submit" to one another. But if the meaning of today were meant then, it is advocating an impossibility, since we cannot mutually act to put ourselves under one another's rule. However, we can each esteem the other more highly than ourself, and if we do that, we can have harmony and mutual support and reach agreement rather readily. So the word cannot mean submit and obey as we understand those words in 20th and 21st century English. And esteem, which works, is the better translation.
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Preacher: What should the response from the congregation be if a pastor preaches something that is contrary to Scripture? Is the congregation biblically obligated to submit/obey?
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I believe the root cause of all of your confusion is the lack of a spiritual experience.The carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be.A. Amos Love do you have the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues?Julie Anne? 56 years Baptist?
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Preacher: I don't want to offend you, but will share my experience. I described my experience in another comment that you may not have seen. When I was a teenager, I was a part of a youth group at a church and they laid hands on me to receive the HS and the gift of tongues. Nothing came out of my mouth. They then told me to start babbling, that the HS would take over my mouth. I did start babbling and with 20 or so of my peers and respected youth leaders surrounding me, speaking in tongues, singing and praying, it was quite an emotional experience. I continued to "speak in tongues" for a while – not sure how long – maybe a year or so and I convinced myself that I had the gift of tongues. Later on, I realized that I was fooling myself. That I was pressured into this "experience" – that it was more emotional hype than anything. Here's what I've discovered about these so-called experiences. They are enticing at the moment, but they don't last during the week when you are in your normal routine when you are dealing with life/work/school and difficult situations. At least this is what I observed from my many acquaintances who had been speaking in tongues for years.
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Preacher,Paul said that love is better than tongues. So a preacher having tongues and leading a congregation without true love of them is worse than one without the gift of tongues but with the love of God in their heart and evident in all that they do. Nowhere does the Bible teach that tongues is the only evidence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian. That is a "doctrine of men".
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Preacher1a – Do you call your self – Pastor?1b – Does anyone else call you – Pastor?2a – Do you call your self – Leader?2b – Does anyone else call you – Leader?3a – Do you believe you are an -"Elder/Overseer?"3b – Did anyone ordain you as an – "Elder/Overseer?"4a – Do you believe you "Qualify" as an -"Elder/Overseer?" 4b – Do you believe you "Qualify?" – According to the Bible?
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PreacherYou write…“I believe the root cause of all of your confusion is the lack of a spiritual experience.”Nope – The original “root cause” of “my confusion” was believing, and trusting – MAN.“Mere Fallible Humans” who proclaimed they were “God Ordained Authority.” – LIEAnd when I gave money to MAN – I was giving the money to God. Another – LIE.And I wasn’t to speak against – “touch the head of God’s anointed.” Another – LIE.And this MAN – My “Spiritual Authority” – I was to Obey and Submit to – always. LIE. When you believe the LIE you start to die…I believed MAN when they used The Bible – to control and manipulate the congregation.I even joined them for awhile – Because I wanted to be like them – Up front – Important.With – Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Reputation – Recognition… etc.You know…ALL those “Idols” of the heart Jesus spoke against. Ezek 14:1-11.You know…ALL those “Idols” – that come with “Titles” – NOT found in the Bible.You know…ALL those Idols” that are highly esteemed among men – BUT…Are an abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15I became pretty good at “Being a lord over God’s heritage.”And ‘Exercising Authority.”Yeah – I was so good – People even thanked me for it. Go figure… Oy Vey!!!No – the “root cause” of my confusion” was trusting MAN – and NOT trusting Jesus..Trusting – “Commandments of MEN” “Doctrines of MEN” Traditions of MEN”And NOT being a Berean – checking the Scriptures – And Trusting Jesus.Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; “Cursed be the man” that trusteth in MAN, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.Ps 118:8-9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in MAN.It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.Mat 24:4 …Take heed that no MAN deceive you.Mark 13:5 …Take heed lest any MAN deceive you:Luke 21:8 …Take heed that ye be not deceived…Jer 50:6 “My people” hath been “lost sheep:” **their shepherds** have caused them **to go astray,**1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as “sheep going astray;” but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.I’m Blest – I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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That pretty much says it for me.
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"The Gift of Tongues" that's a new one to me. Must be a man made idea. Certainly isn't Biblical. Speaking in tongues in the Bible is definitely evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost! Is it the ONLY evidence? Of course not. The Fruit of the Spirit will manifest as well. Was the initial sign and evidence of Receiving the Holy Ghost speaking in other tongues? ABSOLUTELY! Acts 2, 10, 19. It's obvious that the Apostle Paul spake with other tongues.It's obvious that speaking in other tongues was in effect in the early churches. 1 Cor chapters 12-14. God chose it as a sign. Why deny it? When did man eliminate what God instituted? Why? When the Spirit gives the utterance, it is of God, and it is a beautiful experience that only God can give! …and it is undeniable evidence of receiving the Spirit of God! That's not man made! Read your BIBLE!
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A. Amos,Ephesians 4:11(11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;I am a pastor.Go argue with Paul about it. Or God. I see that you now have your own translation of the Bible, and have signed a few of your posts as "Jesus". You've taken way more authority upon yourself than I ever have!
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LOL – Preacher, that was good. I do not believe A. Amos was forging Jesus' signature 🙂 haha
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Preacher,There is no punctuation in the Greek. So it would read:Ephesians 4:11(11) And he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers . . ..The punctuation changes the meaning!!! And you are still relying on the erroneous translation, the one made at a secular kings direction, to bolster his "divine"right to rule, and which falsely gives you the right to "rule" over a congregation. It is ignorant of you to continue to do so.
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PreacherWell – you did answer one question – Thanks.“I am a pastor.” – And then you say – “Go argue with Paul about it. Or God.” Why should I argue with Paul or God? They didn’t call you pastor – You did.Are you taking – God’s name – shepherd – in vain? (Vain = empty – of NO value?)Believe it or not – I’m familiar with the word pastor in the Bible. I was ordained. :-(And – It is one time in the NT – plural – pastors/shepherds – Never as a “Title.”And – It seems – those “Servants” who would “feed” “shepherd” or “tend” (Verb)“the flock of God” – In the Bible – Are very different then “so-called pastors” today…Who “honor themselves” and “seek their own Glory” by calling themself – pastor.Jesus said – I receive NOT honor from men. Jn 5:41Jesus said – How can you believe who receive honor one of another. Jn 5:44Jesus said – He that honors himself – his honor is nothing. Jn 8:54Jesus said – He who speaks of himself seeks his “Own Glory.” Jn 7:18When you tell someone – “I am a pastor.”Is that – “honoring yourself?” Jn 8:54Is that – “seeking your own glory?” Jn 7:18. Jn 8:50.When someone calls you – “pastor.”Is that – “Receiving Honor” – from men?NO – Those who “feed” – “shepherd” – “tend” – In the Bible.Are nothing like Todays – so-called pastors.I think I agree with King David…The Lord – Is my Shepherd. – Thank you Jesus…
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PreacherSince you’re big on telling folks to “Read your Bible.” I thought maybe you can help. I can’t seem to find one of His Disciples – In the Bible – who said – “I am a pastor.”Can you Preacher? – Answer these questions? From the Bible?In the Bible – How many of His Disciples – Are “Called” – Pastor/Leader?In the Bible – How many of His Disciples – “Call themself” – Pastor/Leader?In the Bible – How many of His Disciples – Have the “Title” – Pastor/Leader?In the Bible – How many of His Disciples – Are Hired or Fired – as a – Pastor/Leader?And – every pastor/leader I’ve met – Had the “Title” – Reverend.In the Bible – Does anyone have the “Title – Reverend?What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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PreacherI thought the "undeniable evidence of receiving the Spirit of God"Was they had ALL things in common. Because they had Love – one for another.
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PreacherIt's really pronounced – Hey Zeus.I just spell it – Jesus – for my spanish friends. :-)If you ever need some info from a mythical Greek God – Just cry – Hey Zeus.I'd be more than glad to help. Of course – you might also get the attention of some of my spanish friends.
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And – it seems -Llife is always a – MythSometimes it's a – Myth tery.Sometimes it's a – Myth take. And…Sometimes it's a – Myth conception.But – Life is always a – Myth.
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And you tell me…..were there any pastors in the Bible? In the New Testament were there any pastors? Were the disciples leaders? True ministers are not hired or fired they are called.Did not GOD say that he would send Pastors after His own heart??
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PreacherYou write…“Did not GOD say that he would send Pastors after His own heart??”YES – He did…That’s why – In the Bible – You don’t know who these Shepherd/Servants are.In the Bible – They decrease – So – Jesus – can increase. Jn 3:30 KJVIn the Bible – They do NOT lift up – Themselves – “Mere Fallible Humans.”They lift up {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}YES – That’s – “the heart of God” – in action. —————YES – In the Bible – Those “Servants” who – feed – shepherd – tend – God’s Sheep…Are NOT – called – Pastor/Leader. – They “humble” themselves.Do NOT – call themself – Pastor/Leader. – They call themselves “Servants.”Do NOT – Take the “Title” – Pastor/Leader. – They make themselves of NO reputation.Jesus taught His Disciples – NOT to be called – LeaderFor you have “ONE” Leader – Jesus Christ. Mat 23:10 NASBAnd – NOT one of His Disciples – called themselves – Leaders…YES – That’s – “the heart of God” – in action. —————YES – Jesus taught – There is “ONE” Shepherd – Jesus Christ…. Jn 10:16. And – NOT one of His Disciples – called themselves – Shepherd or Pastor…YES – That’s – “the heart of God” – in action. —————And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in “ALL things” he (Jesus) might have the “preeminence.”Col 1:18
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PreacherI noticed – You didn’t want to answer the questions …Or – You didn’t know the answers. ;-)Let me help – The correct answers for ALL the questions asked – Would be…NONE – Zero – Zip – Nada – NOT one of His Disciples….In my experience…“Pastors who Abuse” “Pastors addicted to Exercising Authority”“Pastors additcted to Power – Profit – Prestige – Glory – Reputation – Recognition”Do NOT have the courage to answer these questions – honestly.When you believe the lie you start to die…
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A. Amos,Sometimes it's better to answer questions with questions, in an effort to lead someone to understanding. That obviously doesn't work with you. :-)A wise man once said, "you lead sheep, you drive goats". It's obvious that you have a candy stick here that you love to harp on. It's also obvious that you despise the God ordained office of a pastor. You are apparently obsessed with trying to discredit preachers, quite honestly I find your arguments silly and trivial. In your reasoning, anyone who has ever been called or accepted the title; pastor, preacher, teacher, etc. Is disqualified by reason of pride.Does the Bible say "mark those who call themselves pastors"? Absolutely NOT! The BIBLE speaks honorably of these offices. A pastor is a MINISTER! (As we have already discussed!) I believe it is you, who is trying to make that title synonymous with kingship or usurping authority. Quite to the contrary it is a title of MINISTRY! (Go look that up, and see how many times the Apostles CALLED THEMSELVES MINISTERS!) So, the TERM or TITLE "pastor" is rightfully used to denote an office of ministry. Perhaps you would rather we called ourselves "angel" as Jesus called the ministers book of Revelations? In the end, you are simply self-justifying your unwillingness to SUBMIT to the authority God has given to the MEN He has called. I'm amazed at how you take scriptures out of context, simply to advance your agenda.
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Sorry 56 years baptist,I'm not making the connection here, how does that change the meaning? Those offices are still there, just not divided by punctuation.What about the next verse?>?Ephesians 4:12(12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:That's what God wants the MEN who hold these offices to accomplish in His church! It's ignorant of you to believe otherwise. It's ignorant of you to believe that God intended the church to "rule" His ministry. Perhaps you could give us some scripture for that?
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The NT refers to a woman as an Apostle, to women as prophesying which is preaching, and to women as teaching, including teaching a preacher. You're buying the misogynism of the badly translated KJV, which denies God's choice of women to share the message. The first witness to the resurrection was a woman, and the first Apostle (one commissioned in person by the risen Christ to share the message of the good news) was also a woman who preached that message to his disciples.Your ignorance is still showing. Go get a modern, non-biased translation, and learn something about how we came to have the Bible we have, including the translations we have. Then come back and tell me what you learn..
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Nice try, I was referring to humanity in my comments. Stick to the subject. Everyone has access to nearly all translations now. Some of them are very accurate. Pull your fangs in, and try to stay on one topic, even when it looks like you may be wrong.
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PreacherHey – We are in agreement again – cool – Maybe we’re getting somewhere now…You write…“(Go look that up, and see *how many times* the Apostles CALLED THEMSELVES MINISTERS!)Well – kinda in agreement – Because – You "mis-preached" to us only a little. :-)I can find – In the Bible – Paul calling himself – “a minister.”BUT – I can NOT find – any other apostle – calling themself – “a minister.”Yup – Only Paul – NOT plural – Apostles CALLED THEMSELVES – As you said.Now – I cudda missed it. I've actually been wrong in the past. ;-)Maybe “you” can find some other apostles who called themselves minister?I’d be interested to see what you come up with. 😉 ————And – When Paul calls himself “minister” he mostly uses the Greek – diakonos.Minister – Strongs #1249 diakonos dee-ak'-on-os – In the KJV it is translated…KJV – minister 20, servant 8, deacon 3; 31Minister -Thayers Greek-English Lexicon – Has diakonos as – one who executes the commands of another, servant, attendant, minister – the servant of a king – a waiter, one who serves food and drink.Yes – We’re in agreement – Paul called himself – minister – diakonos – a “Servant.”And – Paul calls others – minister – diakonos – a “Servant.”BUT – Paul – Never calls – himself – pastor, shepherd, or leader.AND – Paul – Never calls – anyone else – pastor, shepherd, or leader.Hmmm? I hope you didn’t “shoot from” the “Lip” or give me “Your Traditions”without doing any research on this topic – Before asking me – “Go look That Up.”If someone who says they’ve – “been called or accepted the title; pastor, preacher” “Teaches” or “Preaches” something that is – NOT accurate – NOT in the Bible…Should they – Remove themselves? And be a good example to the flock?Should they – Lay down their “Titles” that have become an “Idols?”Should they – Lay down their – Power – Profit – Prestige – that comes with the “Title?”And – What should we call them? I mean – From the Bible?
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PreacherJust for future reference – Here’s some of what I found – about – “minister.”And – Remember. – Minister is – diakonos – servant – And…I can only find – one apostle – Paul – **calling himself** – diakonos – servant ————Here are some verses where Paul calls himself – minister – diakonos – a “Servant1Cor 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but “ministers” (diakonos = Servants) by whom ye believed…2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the “ministers of God,” (the diakonos = Servants of God) in much patience…Col 1:23 …I Paul am made a “minister.” (a diakonos = Servant.)Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a “minister”… (a diakonos = Servant.)Eph 3:7Whereof I was made a “minister”… (a diakonos = Servant.) ————Here is Paul -calling others – a “minister” – a diakonos = “Servant” of Jesus Christ.Paul called – Timothy – a “minister” – a “Servant” – of Jesus Christ. – 1Ti 4:6, 1Th 3:2,Paul called – Tychicus – a “minister” – a “Servant” – Eph 6:21, Col 4:7.Paul called – Epaphras – a “minister” – a “Servant” – Col 1:7Paul called – Apollos – a “minister” – a “Servant” – 1Cor 3:5————Yup – It seems “Ministers” in the NT – Refers to Servants…Never to – Todays so-called pastors – Who demand you – Pay – Pray – and Obey.Todays pastors – Who want the – preeminence – That only belongs to Jesus. :-)Thanks for the Challenge – The admonition to – “Go look That Up.”I enjoyed the Bible study this morning – Hope you learned something. :-)————*My people* hath been *lost sheep:* “their shepherds” have caused them “to go astray,”Jer 50:6 For ye were as “sheep going astray;” but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.1 Pet 2:25Yup – That was me – for a long time – Led astray – by those who convinced me…Nay – deceived me – They had – “been called or accepted the title; pastor, preacher”I’m Blest – I’ve returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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A. Amos,Your semantics are amusing, but they undermine Biblical principle. Again, you try to twist truth to prove your agenda. It's obvious in your "Bible Study" that you approached it with the intent to prove your point. NOT with the intent to allow scripture to interpret scripture.The New Testament has many references to saints as being "brothers" and "sisters". What if we take on that title? Does that mean that we are "worthy" to be children of God? Is that pride? Doesn't that lift us up and designate us from unbelievers? Are you consistent in your doctrine? Do you think this is unacceptable as well?As far as your attempt to side track the discussion again with the idea that only Paul used the title "minister", it just so happens that he wrote the majority of the NT. Paul claimed to be a minister of the gospel, and he gave his sons in the faith the same title. What office did they fill? What does history tell us about their title? How do you feel about the "title" apostle?Elder?Bishop?Brother?Sister?
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PreacherAll I asked you was…“Maybe “you” can find some other apostles who called themselves minister?I’d be interested to see what you come up with. ;-)”Well – Seems “YOU” could NOT find – “other apostles who called themselves minister.”And – Instead of having “Integrity” – to admit “YOU” made a mistake…And – Instead of having “lowliness of mind” – to be corrected…And – Instead of having “Humility” – to “submit” your self one to another. Eph 5:21And – Instead of – “Giving Thanks ” for someone doing “YOUR” research for you, – “Giving Thanks” for a total stranger providing “YOU” scripture showing only Paul calling himself – minister – diakonos – “Servant” – Giving Thanks” for “YOU” learning something – You did NOT know before.You – being of “Special Clergy Class” – turn to “Accusation” to cover your error…“your attempt to side track the discussion again with the idea that only Paul used the title "minister",”When it was – “YOU” – Preacher – who asked…“(Go look that up, and see how many times the Apostles CALLED THEMSELVES MINISTERS!)”Well – I did what you asked – And reported what I found – In abundance…And – By searching the scripture – At “YOUR” request…I find – Only Paul – called himself – minister – diakonos – “Servant.”And – I found – NO other apostles calling themself – minister – diakonos – “Servant.And – I thanked you – “Thanks for the Challenge – The admonition to – “Go look That Up.”Because – I never researched how many apostles called themselves – minister – Servant.BUT – Now I know how many apostles called themselves – minister – diakonos – Servant…Only One – Paul.AND – Now – “YOU” know how many apostles called themselves – minister – diakonos – Servant…Only One – Paul.Oh – and I never had – the idea – or said – “that only Paul used the title "minister",”Please do NOT put words in my mouth – I have enough of my own to deal with. ;-)I could NOT find one time when Paul used minister as – a “Title.”In my experience with those who take “Titles” and “Positions” NOT in the Bible…“Pastors who Abuse”“Pastors who are addicted to – “Exercising Authority.”“Pastors who are addicted to – Power – Profit – Prestige – Reputation – Recognition…“Titles” become “Idols”……………. “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-11 KJV“Pastors” become “Masters”……. A No, No…. Mat 23:10 KJV
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PreacherOh yeah – You also ask…“What does history tell us about their title?”Well – Biblical History tells us…NOT one apostle – used – diakonos – minister – “Servant” – as a “Title.”BUT – I cudda missed it… :-)Maybe you can show me – In the Bible – Where anyone used – diakonos – as a “Title.”And – Only Paul – called himself – minister – diakonos – “Servant.”Now others called themselves servants – BUT – This is a different Greek word.Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God 2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servantHere they use the Greek word – doulosIt is Strongs #1401 doulos – doo'-los – In the KJV – It is translated…KJV – servant 120, bond 6, bondman 1; 127Thayers – doulos – a slave, bondman, man of servile condition – devoted to another to the disregard of one's own interests – a servant, attendant.Gee – This “servant” thingy – is all over the place – AND…“Titles” become “Idols”“Pastors” become “Masters”When you believe the lie you start to die…
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I loved Bishop L.E. Westberg. And I am sickened and sad over Br. Edwin Youngs fall. My prayers are with Elder Dudley, the new Pastor at Faith Tab. Of course, my prayers are with the good saints and family that have to live with this. Br E. Young has a soul and it's not Gods will that any should perish. Bishop Westberg was baptized in Jesus name in my home church in Buchanan MI. 1952 I believe. He is and was a hero of the faith.
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Bro. McCready, Pastor Mahnesmith, Bro. Sands and Pastor Westberg are my foundations for discovering the truth and realness of Acts 2:38, the Holy Ghost, Oneness and the Pentecostal “movement”. At my start, (1983-ish), I had observed these people and my opinion was that they “had something”. Long story short, I checked out the church, pursued the holy ghost, embedded myself within the congregation and found it be be real.
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During my 5 years at FT, I found the Church Family to be genuine. Brother Young was a true saint.
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Sure, Bro. Westberg preached it “hard”, but I always attributed it to his unwavering commitment to Pastoring. (I still respect his commitment.) I consider him to have been the pastor that (scriptually) I needed to be “saved”.
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Even after all these years, I continue to have a relationship with God…afterall, one can never unlearn a truth they have discovered. I could NEVER deny the realness of God!
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It was just this week that I stumbled onto the news about Edwin and Jordan. My heart aches for them both, for Brenda, for all of us. Clearly, none of us can let down our guard. If the strongest among us can fall, we all need to be vigilent..
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Brother Nathaniel Urshan and his wife, Jean, had such gentle, peaceful spirits. When he preached, or she sang, it rang so true. May God bring back that Urshan approach this day to calming and relieving all of those in spiritual need.
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By the way, I recently viewed a (latest) General Conference video for the UPC/UPCI, and the General Superintendant struck me as having an Urshan-like approach…compassiionate, caring, and a war-like passion for reaching the delicate, genuine, truth-seeking souls among us.
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Hi, I am asking if anyone knows who the Pastor was in 1984-85? Anyone still in the church since then? I’d like to chat. KL
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