How Far Will We Go to Contend for the Faith?

188 thoughts on “How Far Will We Go to Contend for the Faith?”

1. And I suppose that the Apostle Paul should have just shut his mouth about warning people, too, huh? Just move on and spread the gospel without warning people about false teachings that will be brought in by others, unsuspecting? Should he have just told Peter that he agrees to disagree? It's good to have an opinion, Fred, but your opinion is not in line with the Apostle Paul in this regard.

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2. Mr. Butler,Is there ever a time when it is appropriate for one to warn another of potential harm? Does the amount of the potential harm determine the length of time allowed for the story to be told?If this blog saves 20 people from harm in this church, is it okay then? 10 people? 1 person?You say this should no longer concern her because she lives so far away. Does distance determine what we are called to do to help others? Since when does God only call us to ministry in our backyard?When you compare your comments on a blog being deleted with Google reviews reporting abuse being deleted, you trivialize the very nature of her comments. I suspect you do not understand the serious nature of spiritual abuse. Like any other abuse, it can cause severe trauma and years of recovery. The very fact.of the lawsuit gives weight to her story.

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3. "But she persisted."Good for you Julia Anne. If you are making guys like Fred Butler that's an indication you're on the right track.It amazes me how many people sympathize with abusers and blame victims.

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4. I could understand Fred's comments if the pastor, say, hurt Julie Anne's feelings and she felt the need to picket the church. I could understand his comments if Julie Anne just disagreed with the pastor in a few areas and she felt the need to rent advertising space to shame him.That is not what happened!Fred, do you understand that this pastor has caused great harm to not only her family but many, many other families who have been under his control? That type of environment causes deep wounds that don't easily heal. All Julie Anne did was to try to prevent others from entering what she perceives as a dangerous situation, and from everything that happened after she began this blog, it appears that she is dead right.If you want to criticize someone for not walking away and leaving someone alone, please turn your attentions to the man who rails against people from his bully pulpit, by name, for the infraction of leaving his church, who condemns everyone who disagrees with him and goes to great lengths to silence and then shame them, and who brings a lawsuit against those who would dare challenge him.I find your targeting of the victims instead of the abusers disheartening and extremely disturbing.

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5. Julie Anne (and your friends)I have stuff going on that I can't spend a good amount of time right now answering your all's questions. If anything, I'll try to give a fuller response in the next few days or early next week. You'll just have to be patient. if all other appropriate Biblical methods were employed, if the pastor refused to communicate, refused to meet with a local pastor who offered mediation, if he refused to listen to MacArthur's people, including Phil Johnson, what next, Fred? There were a number of pastors in the local area who knew of this situation and all chose to not get involved.Then you walk away from it Julie, it's that simple. Flee as the Bible states. I find it strange that you guys complain about this pastor leveling a lawsuit against you; how he is all in the wrong and is a bully and such, yet you keep insisting on stirring up strife against him. Why? Honestly, the words of Paul against Christians suing one another applies equally to you as it does to him, Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! (1Corinthians 6:7-8)You claim none of the other pastors wanted to get involved? Why? Did they just not care or did they have the sense enough to realize it wasn't worth it? Did any of them explain their reasoning as to why they didn't want to be involved? Also, where's your husband in all of this? Your family. Is he supportive of your efforts? Are they? Speaking for myself, I would be discouraged to think my wife spends a great deal of time on the internet complaining about an old church and pastor who did us wrong and has a lawsuit against us. another commenter writes,Fred, do you understand that this pastor has caused great harm to not only her family but many, many other families who have been under his control? That type of environment causes deep wounds that don't easily heal.All Julie Anne did was to try to prevent others from entering what she perceives as a dangerous situation, and from everything that happened after she began this blog, it appears that she is dead right.But according to Julie Anne's testimony, there was a three year gap between her exiting that church and her starting this blog. THREE YEARS! IF the abuse is as severe as you claim it is, she waited three years? And went to the internet instead of proper authorities who could deal with this situation? Please. Additionally, as I understand what she has said in other comments, she lives in an entirely different state now. Am I right about that? And yet she can't cut loose from this church? Which raises the question as to what her current pastor thinks of all this? Does he care? Or does he think it odd?Look, Scripture does warn us about bad pastors, but it also warns us about many of the folks I have encountered over the last month out in Spiritual Abuse Survivor Land. Jude also writes,These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.(Jude 16-19) Again, I have stuff to do this weekend, so unless someone is accusing me of beating my wife, I'll probably won't posting any further comments. BTW, just so we are clear. I am not a pastor at GCC. I'm merely a member. Furthermore, I don't speak for GCC or GTY in any official capacity, so they are irrelevant to my interactions with you all.

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6. Would it help here to note that in the writings of John, "The Apostle of Love," his warning against Diotrophes stands in virtual permanence?… or that I listened to a interview segment posted June 20, 2012, on apprising.com, where a well-known teacher laid out a well-done warning against the heretical New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and their erroneous attempts to create a moralist culture? I suspect this teacher continues to keep up with the NAR because they continue to present teachings and pull antics that confirm they have not changed … and apparently he would feel compelled to continue to warn people about their false teachings and abusive actions, even if there were a three-year gap between his teachings and interviews on the subject.

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7. Oops. I think I may have put apprising.com instead of dot org. Sorry. And in case anyone is interested in that interview, here's the link: http://apprising.org/2012/06/20/john-macarthur-comments-on-linking-with-nar-heretics-to-reclaim-america/And in case anyone is interested in a research series I posted on the NAR and related individuals and organizations and their involvement in the Todd Bentley debacle at the "Lakeland Outpouring," here is the link to the first post:http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/forthcoming-post-on-september-22-leadership-in-this-current-era/The NAR clan was doing the same old stuff … over three years ago.

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8. Julie Anne,I would like to respectfully suggest that perhaps in your anger and zeal for protecting the folks you care about from your former church you have mistaken the workings of a runaway ego for the teachings of a heretic. I have seen you mock your former pastor and belittle his ideas but correct me if I am wrong, I have not seen you point out line by line, verse by verse where he has taught something contrary to Scripture. Has he denied the virgin birth, the resurrected all sufficient Christ, the authority of scripture, or the complete and total inability of man to save himself?While you may disagree (as would I in a red hot minute!) with his managerial style, unless you can point out heresy, you cannot be said to be “contending for the faith”.It is incumbent upon all believers to keep seeking the scriptures for themselves and weighing any and all teaching they hear. This is a huge responsibility for each of us individually, and one which we cannot carry for anyone else. We cannot play the Holy Spirit in anyone’s life. Sadly, I’m afraid this is exactly what you are complaining about with your former pastor, and now what you are doing by trying to warn people away from that church. He has eschewed good counsel, and the biblical proscription for dealing with this problem. Don’t you do the same. Acts 17:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)Paul and Silas in Berea10 The brothers[a] immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.

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9. Amen.

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10. @ Fred Butlermonax hereIn my balance this is the sum of the matter:Julie Anne is a watchman (even a warrior). She has the heart of a true shepherdess. As such, and in the situation God has placed her family in she has the responsibility of life and death in her hands. I know JA loves the sheep of God. YOu, Fred Butler, are a WOLF! I didn’t want to believe it at first. But now know this—the Freddie and Chuckie wolves within the fold will now be exposed for what they are! They are accountable to the light, and we Children of Light possess powers of discernment and weapons of warfare that are mighty in God for pulling down the likes of you. I’ve advised Shepherdess JA to sink an arrow into the heart of every wolf that threatens the flock of God. Not only does she hold a staff and a bow and many spiritual gifts and weapons, But our Queen (an oblique shout out to c.t. with this recognition of Kingdom royalty), Queen Julie Anne has a trumpet which she continues to sound. I heard the echoes of her trumpet sounding all the way to me in Pittsburgh, and as a ram who loves God’s sheep I came running, others from everywhere too, and now we’re engaged in defending the sheep and cleansing the temple gardens of wolves. YOu, Fred Butler, assume to be a teacher in the house of Christ, yet your heart is abundantly wolfish. I thought you may have been a confused lamb, but whatever you are, you need to step down from your teaching position of spiritual authority within the church. The evidence of your heart had been revealed by your words, your own words judge you as unqualified to teach in the church of the Most High God. You don’t know how to wield your sword without wounding the sheep you so sincerely want to lead. Who is your overseer? Hear, JA, the Apostle Paul’s instructions in 1 Timothy 5: “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those elders who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure. No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomache’s sake and your frequent infirmities. Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgement, but those of some follow later. Likewise the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden” (19-25). May all we like watchman—the women, children and all the men—Hear the Word of the LORD spoken through the prophet Ezekiel: “But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, so that the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any one of them, that person is taken away in its iniquity, but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand” (Ezekiel 33:6)

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11. I will be commenting on Fred's above response at length later when I get a chance. But there was one thing that was peculiarly absent in his response, perhaps that big elephant in the middle of the room?Anyone want to take a stab and identify the "elephant"?

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12. May 31st Thy Peace provided a link toWade Burleson > Lessons in Dealing with a Disgruntled MemberIn true Shepherd form Pastor Wade Burleson "made a promise three years ago that should [he] ever hear of a Southern Baptist experiencing some kind of spiritual or emotional abuse by a denominational or church leaders, [he] would not be silent…" HE WOULD NOT REMAIN SILENT!

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13. It is God's nature to make something out of nothing. This is why God cannot make anything out of him who is not yet nothing.

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14. @ Old Mom“And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing” (1 Cor. 13:2).Correct doctrine in itself does not elevate one to anything. And as far as Mr Butler ever offering again his voice on JA's blog, I’m good with dismissing him from further commenting. He’s already shown his true colors. I do want to know who his overseer is so that he might also be dismissed from possessing any teaching authority within the church until a time of future maturity. Does anyone know if Fred Butler is an aberration within the JM camp? Or is this mean-spiritedness and bully-mentality a GCC structural problem?

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15. Shunning people, failing to report a child sexual abuser and allowing months to go by with that abuser having access at the church to children, setting up a review of Julie Anne to post condemnations of her, filing a SLAPP suit against her, doing similar things to other members and former members. It is a herd of elephants. And responding to a suit by countersuit is a very common practice to collect attorney fees brought about by the original suit.O'Neal could have dropped the matter. But he an authoritarian serial abuser of people. As is Fred.Fred, crawl back into your hole and leave the good people of God, who only wish to be happy and to help others avoid and recovery from abuse, to continue without your abusive meddling in pots you have NO knowledge of.

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16. "O'Neal is an authoritarian serial abuser of people. As is Fred."

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17. In response to Old Mom, I respectfully disagree with your sentiments. I believe Julie Anne IS contending for the faith, for the very essence of the gospel to be seen, celebrated and lived out. Your challenge for her to spell out her former pastor's err line by line sounds eerily similar to my own church experience where the leaders did not want to be challenged and would answer a general observation with a one scripture, hang your hat on it response. For example, if a pastor is faithfully teaching from the word, line by line as is your preference, and the emhasis is a system of morality rather than pointing the congregation to the amazing freedom and joy they have in Christ, this IS heretical. If nonbelievers come to a church and are presented with a lengthy sermon in churchy jargon and leave with the impression that church is about dressing a certain way or knowing a lot of things, and they do not experience the same kind of radical love Jesus extended to sinners (all of us!), the church has missed the mark and ought to be challenged. If you read some of Julie Anne's past posts, she points out some pretty specific problems in her former church. A pastor is not given a free pass to hide under line by line style teaching if he creates a culture of fear and comformity. He may believe in the essential doctrines of the faith but if he promotes a system over Jesus, it reveals a lack of truly understanding free, unearned grace. No matter how much we all differ in tradition, style preference, theology, etc., we (lay people and leaders alike) must never lose our focus on the hope there is for all of us when we turn from our sins and cast ourselves wholeheartedly on Jesus who lived and died and rose for us.There is no hope or salvation in moralism.

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18. sorry ja, let me reveal what is evident to some, but hidden from othersone of the spiritual gifts our true shepherdess has in her bag of love is balm—healing balm for all those who have been wounded, torn to pieces by vicious dogs, trampled on by avaricious pigs, devoured by lustful bears, mislead by proud lions, suffocated in tiny cages, shorn and slaughtered all in the name of the LORD! to the survivors ja offers care, to the wanderer who is thirsty—waters of life. to the abused and wounded—there is an anointing BALMyou are a Balmy Torch, Julie Anne! thanks for your warmth and light and lovemonax

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19. My reply to Mr. Butler is so long, it has to be split up.Part 1“I have stuff going on that I can't spend a good amount of time right now answering your all's questions……”But you did find time to post new material to your blog this morning. “Then you walk away from it Julie, it's that simple. Flee as the Bible states.” No, it is not that simple. Evil teachers and false pastors who are bringing harm to Christian people and dishonoring the Name of Christ MUST be confronted and opposed. But you once again have a difference standard for Cult Master O’Neal’s victims than you do for yourself. You felt it necessary to have lectures on King James Onlyism. You state, “Near the end of 2003, I gave a series of six lectures on KJV onlyism. The series was meant to be my testimony as a former KJV only advocate and the reasons I abandoned the belief system.” You did not “walk away from it,” as you are commanding Julia Anne and the Beavercreek Survivors to do. There is no substantial difference between what you did with King James Onlyism back then, and what Julie Anne and the others are doing now. But again, your hypocrisy shines forth. Just as with your making excuses for Turretinfan (whom, btw, I support), you have a blatant double-standard. Hypocrisy for you, Mr. Butler is a way of life. http://www.fredsbibletalk.com/KJVonly.html“I find it strange that you guys complain about this pastor leveling a lawsuit against you; how he is all in the wrong and is a bully and such, yet you keep insisting on stirring up strife against him. Why? Honestly, the words of Paul against Christians suing one another applies equally to you as it does to him.”This is one of the sickest and most perverted pieces of nonsense you have yet posted. So Poor Wittle Chuckie is quite justified in filing a lawsuit against the Big BAD Wady, because the Big BAD Wady said mean things about Poor Widdle Chuckie!!!! And the Big BAD Wady is sinning because she DARES to open her mouth to complain about it!!!!!! “You claim none of the other pastors wanted to get involved? Why? Did they just not care or did they have the sense enough to realize it wasn't worth it? Did any of them explain their reasoning as to why they didn't want to be involved?”Why no other pastors chose to get involved in it is something that they will have to answer for themselves for before the Lord. But by all proper and Biblical standards, Cult Master O’Neal should be a spiritual outcast in the Beavercreek area.

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20. Part 2 to Mr. Butler.“Also, where's your husband in all of this? Your family. Is he supportive of your efforts? Are they? Speaking for myself, I would be discouraged to think my wife spends a great deal of time on the internet complaining about an old church and pastor who did us wrong and has a lawsuit against us. “So now, you have the arrogance to interfere in Julie Anne’s home and family life!!!! I’ll leave Julie Anne and her husband to address that issue themselves as how they see fit. But I will say this to you, Mr. Butler; Be VERY thankful that you haven’t done to my wife what you are doing to Julie Anne. And I hope you take that the way it was intended.“But according to Julie Anne's testimony,…blah..blah…blah..?”So much garbage here, I’ll let Julie Anne and others address it“Look, Scripture does warn us about bad pastors, but it also warns us about many of the folks I have encountered over the last month out in Spiritual Abuse Survivor Land. Jude also writes……”,Again you pervert Scripture in order to stand in judgment and to attack and slander those victimized by ecclesiastical tyrants in situations you know NOTHING about. May God repay you for your evil deeds.“Again, I have stuff to do this weekend, so unless someone is accusing me of beating my wife, “As heinous as beating you wife (poor woman) would be, your attacks against God’s people and defense of a false pastor are more reprehensible. The former brings pain to the body, while the latter affects their souls and possibly eternal destinies.“I'll probably won't posting any further comments.” The intellectual and ethical standards of this blog have sharply risen with that statement.“BTW, just so we are clear. I am not a pastor at GCC. I'm merely a member. Furthermore, I don't speak for GCC or GTY in any official capacity, so they are irrelevant to my interactions with you all.”No it is not “irrelevant”, because your arrogance, hypocrisy, scripture-twisting, slander, and defense of an evil persecutor of God’s people is an abomination before the Lord God Almighty. Your continued presence in any Christian church or organization is a stench to that church or organization. So glad I will NEVER be part of GCC or GTV. Finally, I do not and will not recognize Fred Butler as a brother in Christ. He has been repeatedly reproved for his false, evil, and sinful words by numerous individuals here, yet persists in his attacks against God’s people. Matthew 18 principles have been met; so to me, Fred Butler is an infidel.

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21. I believe it's a legitimate caution to consider whether we are justly contending or just contentious when critiquing someone in ministry. Each of us who blogs or comments will have to stand accountable for each word. I'm in my 10th year of blogging, have posted at least half a million words in that time (the equivalent of seven books) and I don't take that admonition on accountability lightly! I'd also suggest that looking only at doctrinal stances isn't sufficient. There are many spiritually abusive teachers, preachers, and pastors who absolutely come across as orthodox on paper regarding the core doctrines of our Christian faith – but their ministry practices do not qualify biblically as "orthopraxis." Their maltreatment of God’s children denies other truths – such as those about grace, liberty, priesthood of every believer to represent himself/herself before God and be accountable for his/her own actions. In effect, their unscriptural practices override whatever orthodoxy they have.The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 rejects the practices of the Judaizers that would basically force gentiles to become Jews before they could become Christians. The Apostle Paul chews out Peter for schmoozing with the Judaizers, who want to impose their legalistic practices onto followers of Jesus – the Law can only point out the need for the gospel; the Law can never fulfill it or empower faith in action. Legalism that turns what should be individual wisdom decision-making into moral imperatives imposed by the leader denies the essence of the Gospel.Other passages warn against leaders who “lord it over the flock” – that surely isn’t about heresy, but about practices that subjugate believers to the will of the leader instead of leading them into freedom and responsibility before Christ. Even John, the so-called “Apostle of Love,” reprimands Diotrophes for these kinds of controlling practices. So, actually, a leader’s “managerial style” truly can be at issue in someone contending for the faith. Authoritarian controlling leadership contradicts the essence of the gospel, of spiritual giftedness, of legitimate boundaries and responsibilities God imposes on leaders. So, if there is documentable evidence from past and present, verifiable by multiple witnesses, of someone’s spiritually abusive leadership/management style, I’d conclude that there is something legitimate to contend for the faith with such a leader, on behalf of disciples who hope in Christ to be found faithful but are being wounded by said leader.

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22. Shine Jesus shineFill this land with the Father’s gloryBlaze, Spirit blaze,Set our hearts on fireFlow, river flowFlood the nations with grace and mercySend forth Your wordLORD and let there be light

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23. …and exhale. Whew! i'm gonna go back and re-read that againthat was something elsemonax

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24. on second readi'm gonna have to say "Amen!" and stand behind The Other Tom on this one.

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25. The Fred Butler's of the world give the Christian faith a bad name. He's an authoritarian type, a know-it-all, a self-righteous blowhard, in fact, a jerk. He is someone I would not choose to associate with in any way.

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26. Done with work for the moment, I respond to that two-part rant. It was awe-inspiring. But you did find time to post new material to your blog this morning.Two paragraphs? That I wrote up last night and scheduled to post? Not the same.You felt it necessary to have lectures on King James Onlyism. etc.,There is a major difference between talking on a subject and stirring strife with a church. King James Onlyism is an apologetic system, not a church with a pastor. So now, you have the arrogance to interfere in Julie Anne’s home and family life!!!! I’ll leave Julie Anne and her husband to address that issue themselves as how they see fit. But I will say this to you, Mr. Butler; Be VERY thankful that you haven’t done to my wife what you are doing to Julie Anne. And I hope you take that the way it was intended.Arrogant? It's a legitimate question. I can't sincerely ask that without being threatened with violence? And I'm suppose to be a bully infidel?Again you pervert Scripture in order to stand in judgment and to attack and slander those victimized by ecclesiastical tyrants in situations you know NOTHING about. May God repay you for your evil deeds.Can you explain how I did so? I'm curious. So glad I will NEVER be part of GCC or GTV.I think you mean GTY, but thanks. Finally, I do not and will not recognize Fred Butler as a brother in Christ. He has been repeatedly reproved for his false, evil, and sinful words by numerous individuals here, yet persists in his attacks against God’s people. Matthew 18 principles have been met; so to me, Fred Butler is an infidel.So. Because I press questions about this situation, don't take the words of an "abuse" survivor by prodding a little, I'm using sinful and false words? Isn't this the same thing you guys accuse spiritually abusive pastors of doing? Censoring and dismissing criticism? You guys are becoming a self fulfilling picture of the very thing it is you hate.

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27. Dear Recovering,You said:“For example, if a pastor is faithfully teaching from the word, line by line as is your preference, and the emhasis is a system of morality rather than pointing the congregation to the amazing freedom and joy they have in Christ, this IS heretical.”Can you point out where in my post I said that line by line teaching with an emphasis on morality is my preference? What I thought I was saying was that I had not seen Julie Anne offer a list of heretical teachings dealt out by her former pastor along with the scripture that they were contradicting. Please understand, that I am no apologist for her former pastor; nor would I ever attend a church with such rigid guidelines of behavior. My husband and I had visited (one time) such a church when we moved into a new area and we could not get out the door quickly enough after the service.I have a very close friend who suffered greatly, and I mean GREATLY, because of the tentacles of a hyper legalistic church. But, I believe you deal with that by discerning the problematic elder/pastor behavior, calling it sin, and moving on leaving God to reckon with both the sin and the souls who are left. Again…we cannot play the Holy Spirit in anyone’s life. I understand that it was painful for Julie Anne to see her friends left in a less than fruitful environment, but the bottom line is that we do live in a country where attendance at any particular church is neither mandatory nor prohibited. The folks left at the church, and the potential future visitors to the church that she felt she needed to alert, are all FREE , and yes even obligated ,to obey God as the Holy Spirit leads them though His Word.

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28. Old Mom,First I must say I wish I'd claimed that title. It is a good one.Julie Anne's comments did not simply concern "managerial style." They concerned a leader with power abusing people in his church. Would you agree that a teacher has a responsibility to be careful of his/her words and actions as he/she is seen as an example by students and families? Would you agree a counselor or therapist has a power relationship with a client and must take care as to how he/she leads the client in therapy? A pastor is no different. If he was using his power relationship to sexually abuse a parishioner by convincing her it was God's will they be together sexually, would that be something it would be acceptable to complain about? Emotional abuse is just as devastating.A pastor has a power relationship because we are taught to trust our ministers. You cannot simply say that it's each person's responsibility to connect with the Holy Spirit and therefore if they get caught up in an abusive relationship, it's their own fault. By that reasoning, we shouldn't register sex offenders. Would you agree? It should be each person's responsibility to watch out for their children and know everyone their children might come into contact with. Does that make sense? We register sex offenders because we know that they will most likely repeat their behavior and we want to warn others. The same is true of those who abuse power relationships.Just because this man calls himself a pastor and leads a church does not mean he should somehow be above being called into question. It is always our duty to call others into question, especially as Christians.

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29. Mr. Butler writes: So. Because I press questions about this situation, don't take the words of an "abuse" survivor by prodding a little, I'm using sinful and false words? Isn't this the same thing you guys accuse spiritually abusive pastors of doing? Censoring and dismissing criticism? You guys are becoming a self fulfilling picture of the very thing it is you hate.It’s your `f-n pride and little proddle that makes you a sick abuser! And there you go, using the word ‘hate’ again. Honestly, Mr Butler, I only love you as a brother—if that is what you are. If you’re not, I invite you to be one. Otherwise, for the time being I don’t recognize you as my own.

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30. Mr. Butler,I am sorry you are so unfamiliar with the world of abuse – not because I wish you had suffered it, I wish that for no one. If you had ever been familiar with this sort of situation though you would not have written "abuse" in quotes. We are called to treat those making accusations of abuse with respect. I understand you may not believe it, but if you had some experience in this field, you would recognize the very common signs in Julie Anne's story. Your insinuations remind me of the days when children were not allowed to tell of sexual abuse and when no one spoke of ministers sexually abusing children and adults in their churches (and statistically it happens as often in other denominations as it does in the Catholic Church). Yours are unfortunately the words of one who seeks to silence. This may be your aim. If it is not, however, then perhaps you should seek out some knowledge in this area.As for prodding a little, have you spoken personally with her? I don't know her but upon hearing this story, I read every one of her blog entries. They all tell a very common, if unfortunate, story. You suggest your "prodding" is simple, but unless you are willing to hear her whole story, your dismissal of her claims is merely an attempt to silence her. I pray that one day your eyes will be opened to this reality in the church – denial will only cause more pain.

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31. Julie Anne, I just have one clarifying question. Mr. Butler said you waited 3 years after leaving the church to post the first Google review. Yet in the copies of Chuck's 2009 Google review of you, he states that you had been complaining about him since you were put out of his church the previous year. Am I wrong on the timeline? Somehow I had the impression you started the Google reviewing soon after you left the church but the reviews were removed over and over.

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32. Jackie: Good question. I copied part of my declaration which was submitted to the court (and is public). We left the church Nov. 2008. There was nothing posted publicly about this church until the first review as state below:"On or about October 30, 2009, by posting my first Church review online on Dexknows and Google I continued the ongoing dialogue and my conclusions based on further prayer and Scripture. At the time, there were no other reviews posted for the Church. My initial review (under the name of "concernedchristian") was as follows:Grace? Think again by concernedchristian – 10/30/2009 Although this church touts to be "Beaverton Grace Bible", the "grace" word is lacking. This is more of a legalistic church where if you don’t do things their way (which is the "only" way), you will have challenges. Beaverton Grace is famous for shunning former members/attendees without giving an explanation or following Biblical principles on disagreements. You will be fine in this church if you never question the elders or pastor. Their emphasis is heavy on evangelism to the extent that you get the feeling if you do not regularly evangelize "their way", you are not a true Christian. Be wary of churches that broadcast that they are one of the only few remaining churches that preach the Word. There are true Bible-believing churches who preach the Word, don’t mince the hard teachings, yet also have a balance of truth and grace and humble leaders. Do not be deceived."

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33. Old Mom writes, Again…we cannot play the Holy Spirit in anyone’s life.Who has been your teacher, Old Mom? Are we not each elect one of us a temple of the Holy Spirit, the One who animates our lives to the pleasure of our LORD? What does Scripture tell us about being an expression of God’s good purposes?“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now… work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to do for his good pleasure” (Phil 2 :12-13). Whose are the hands of God that deliver and provide balm for the wounds?

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34. jaSo that was your first trumpet call? And they wanted to silence you over that?

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35. Old Mom: I have really appreciated your tone as you have posted your two comments. I hope you don't think that I have ignored you. I have actually stewed about your first comment and discussed it behind the scenes with two others because while your question is quite simple, the answer does not come as easily.I don't think I'm going to be able to answer your question exactly the way you want, but I'll make an attempt. Do you understand the kind of spiritual abuse that leaves one spiritually dead, leaves one questioning God and and/or their salvation week after week, that convinces one of the need to get baptized, but then one never enters that sense of assurance knowing they have been redeemed, bought with a price and loved with an everlasting love? Spiritual abuse is not just a matter of words, but a matter of words AND actions combined. Although Fred made light of the spiritual abuse survey he discussed on his blog, the truth is that sometimes it is very difficult to identify facts. How would you describe emotional abuse in words? It's the same kind of thing. There are many more stories that I am familiar with, have first-hand knowledge of, but am unable to share publicly at this time. I know that makes my story seem less credible and that doesn't speak well for me. My blog is not a courtroom (although at times it feels like it).This blog does not exist to convince you or Fred of spiritual abuse. Those of us who experienced it know it. We aren't struggling with that issue. We are working through the painful process and trying to get to a point of healing so we can move on. Sure, we would like you to understand what we went through. But sometimes, you just may not get it until you go through it.I have a hunch that you may not be as familiar as you think with spiritual abuse. That is certainly not meant to demean you in anyway. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Legalism is only a small part of spiritual abuse. When I'm talking about spiritual abuse, I'm talking about people who are abandoning their faith, who are in spiritual turmoil for years, who cannot step one foot in church for years, who distrust Christians, pastors, etc. We are also talking about destroyed relationships, families torn apart. Does that sound like what you are talking about?

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36. Jackie: Apparently Fred hasn't found the time to call me. He has my number. hmm, this conversation is reminding me that I also offered to connect the pastors of Grace Community with other men from BGBC who had availed themselves to speak with them. The Grace Community pastors, too, did not make the call to see if what I was saying was true. All of these former BGBC men had previously gone to the Shepherd's Conference – they weren't wishy-washy Christians, but committed to Christ. These were godly men who had been Christian for decades (some perhaps twice as long as the pastor).

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37. Jackie – I find myself nodding and saying uh-huh with each of your posts today!I think you are correct in that Fred does not understand spiritual abuse. He minimizes it, glosses over it, but has yet to validate what it is and fully comprehend the destruction it causes. To confuse spiritual abuse with being a disgruntled congregant is ridiculous.

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38. Yes, this was the first one. It was removed on Google, but last I checked, it was still on Dex. Stephanie and Chuck responded to it. Chuck said I was bibically put out (and then switched his story in the MSNBC interview) and Stephanie said our family was in church discipline (can't remember exact wording). This was the first we had heard of that.

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39. Oh Julie Anne!I would never think you ignored any poster…you’ve always been a gracious hostess here at your blog. (hugs). Much more so than I could ever be! ☺I believe that I understand the phenomenon that you are describing. As I said, my friend suffered greatly. Perhaps the difference is that she was a child at the time, and therefore truly helpless where the people you are concerned about at your old church are presumably mostly adults, and therefore capable of determining where they attend church. I am REALLY struggling with the mentality that they are victims of abuse when rather it’s quite tempting for me to see them as people who are not accepting the responsibility for their own spiritual growth. I know that sounds harsh…but it is not meant to be. What pull, what attraction does a legalistic church have for certain people? Any contact I have had with legalism has made me run the other way; so I just do not understand what could compel someone to embrace it. That being said, I give full assent to the truth that the battle that we fight while in these mortal bodies is not against flesh and blood.A minor example of church conflict from my own life is that years ago my husband and I were members of a very large church that had weekly community group meetings. These meetings were really our “church” because it was not possible to have close fellowship on Sundays due to the large congregation. We loved our little group very much and thought the feeling was mutual. About this time I became chronically ill and many times could not attend the weekly meetings with my husband. After a few months of my spotty attendance due to illness, he was told that unless we were coming as a couple, that he would need to stop attending the flock group. Needless to say we were shocked and saddened. (This dictum did not come from the pastor, but from the flock group leader). We chose to see this, after much prayer and study, as coming from the hand of the Lord and began praying for another church. It took a good long while, but the Lord graciously connected us with a small body of believers where we are currently thriving. I’ve often thought of the people we left in our group. None of them reached out to us, quite a few have left that church and gone elsewhere; some to churches that caused us to really scratch our heads in amazement. What we learned is that GOD is sovereign over anything that anyone may do to us. I always think of what Joseph said to his brothers, “you meant it for evil but God meant it for good”. And that we can trust Him to provide fellowship since it was He who commanded us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

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40. Fred,I'm disappointed that you didn't take up my challenge and wrestle with the questions I asked. I believe you had an opportunity to turn this conversation in an edifying direction. Of course it's not too late. Taking shots at things that are written in anger and pain is easy, but not really helpful. You don't like anonymity. Make sure you're not hiding from the real agony of many on this blog. Roll up your sleeves, dear brother, and weep with those who weep. Then use your analytical skills to help us think through issues in a way that brings growth.

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41. Some types seem to enjoy implying that all women are, to borrow Kipling's phrase from another unfortunate context, 'half child, half devil.' Thus, pretty much anything a woman does regarding a church or a pastor is suspect and most likely overly emotional and/or wicked. Also, there's a famous case in Fred's church of a guy who was disgruntled and went on a multi-years campaign against Fred's pastor, which I think included wearing a sandwich board outside the church, and handing out flyers, and maybe even taking out billboards nearby for all I know. I don't recall the case very specifically. I seem to recall the fellow had a name like Fish, or something related to fish. I suspect this history really (really) effects how Fred sees this kind of issue. Maybe Fred could confirm or deny…

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42. Old Mom, I can understand how it may appear that Julie Anne is over reacting or taking it too far. And how it seems that there should be a distinction between those who suffer the most extreme forms of abuse from what appears to be disgruntled churchgoers. It sounds like you've seen the effects of a spiritually abusive situation in a friend but (praise God) haven't had to experience it first hand.What you may not be aware of is that in these churches where legalism reigns under the mask of "biblical teaching" and "sound doctrine" and such, those of us who care enough to challenge are automatically regarded as slandering or in sin. There is no room for discussion about unhealthy trends in the church, no room for challenging a leader for how they have hurt their flock, and yet you are not allowed to leave. Everyone who does leave is viewed by the congregation as in the wrong, and is shunned. A culture of fear instead of freedom drives the church. It is much more serious than simply legalism, although I'm convinced that is the heart of these spiritual abuse cases. Leaders are so consumed with the ideas they hold so dearly that they start seeing things as black and white that aren't so in the Word. People in their flocks are viewed as either walking in righteousness or not. They start measuring the spiritual state of themselves and others by outward things. When someone in the congregation starts noticing something is off and dares to point it out, for the pastor to agree with even part of the criticism would be for their whole system of faith to come crashing down. It is not right to elevate a church to the level of infallibility that the Bible has. There is a serious problem when people like Julie Anne are viewed as in sin for speaking out about not so pretty things that we don't want to hear. True we should not be quick to critique every little thing we don't like in a church, but when the things that she has described take place, it is wrong not to speak up.Dismissing her words because we ought not to ever speak negatively about a pastor or church is like telling a child who has been abused to be quiet because you are never to question an adult.

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43. Fred asks Julie:Also, where's your husband in all of this?He certainly is no Fred Butler. I say that because Julie's husband isn't wasting his time lecturing someone else's wife on the Internet.Where's your wife in all this, Fred?

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44. Craig: Do you teach classes on how to communicate like that? Sign me up, now! If you were speaking like that to me, I couldn't NOT respond.

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45. Dear Recovering, You said, “There is no room for discussion about unhealthy trends in the church, no room for challenging a leader for how they have hurt their flock, and yet you are not allowed to leave. Everyone who does leave is viewed by the congregation as in the wrong, and is shunned.”As I wrote in my previous response to Julie Anne concerning legalism, what you have written here is precisely what is confusing to me. How on earth can anyone keep you from leaving a church? If the answer is because people will shun you, then I’m afraid I must say that this would be putting fear of man above fear of God. Now, I understand that if you are a family with young children and teenagers that this would be very difficult for them to understand and endure. However, are we as Christian parents obligated to shield our children from the fact that sin exists, and its ramifications are numerous and far reaching? I heard a sermon MANY years ago that I have never forgotten, the point of which was that we Christians should be the least shocked of anyone at evil and bad behavior. I stake my life and my eternal destiny on the belief that sin is so egregious to God that He cannot bear to look upon it, and He must adjudicate it..which for believers, He chose to do in the penal substitutionary atonement of His Son. Do we really think this horrible entity that God took so much painstaking precision to deal with, at great personal cost to Himself, is not going to wreak havoc on the world, our lives, our churches, and even our families? We are cursed before we draw one infant breath due to our adamic nature. This includes pastors and elders. Why then would anyone be shocked when a pastor/elder sins? (As an aside, one of the things I love about my pastor is the fact that when I asked him which of his children he saw most of himself in he answered “I see my sinful nature in all of them”).Applying Matthew 18:15-20 to a out of line, unloving, ego-driven,pastor/elder, we are to treat our brother who refuses to repent as a “tax collector and a Gentile”, meaning one in rebellion against God. I read that as FLEE. Get out of the situation.Did Joseph equivocate about leaving his jacket at Potiphar’s? Did he stop and say, but this is going to make her really angry and be bad for me? No…he FLED. Many years enduring difficult consequences was his wordly reward for doing the right thing. But he entrusted himself to the Lord and look how mightily he was used in God’s redemptive plan and purposes.

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46. All I can say is, I love this blog! I also wrote my own story but chose not identify the church or pastors because I knew I would be sued if I had. I was sexually harassed, gender discriminated and pregnancy discriminated against while I was employed at my old church. I have strong suspicions (but no proof) that my old pastor went so far as to hire a private investigator to follow me for a week (He had done that to a prior ex-member a few months before I had left). I was even witness to a conversation where my old pastor and the associate pastor discussed the possibility of taking this ex-member into the woods behind his trailer and beating him to a bloody pulp; so I fully understand the fear and caution of anonymous commenters. On my blog there is not a single comment that is not anonymous, and it seems to me this Mr. Butler just doesn't understand what it is like to be a victim of spiritual abuse. Let's just pray that he never has to experience what a lot of us that read this blog have had to endure. I would not wish that on anyone. I suggest that we allow Mr. Butler his ignorance and we pray that the compassion of Christ would compel him to reach out to the hurting and abused instead of further victimizing the victims because they dare to cry out, "no more". I understand Julie Anne's heart with this blog…it's a desperate plea for those who can to do something about the abuse to stand up and do something, and to possibly spare just one person the abuse, hurt and torment that she endured. If my story could have gone viral I would have celebrated it because it would have brought exposure to a faulty church system and those false teachers at my old church would have had a few less people to manipulate. We, who speak out against spiritual abuse, may not always do everything right, biblical, or correctly because we are a hurting people; but, every christian who has endured any type of injustice in this fallen world is in the same boat we are and falls victim to the same short comings that we, the victims of spiritual abuse, do. So, should we say that those who are hurting should never speak out because we may sin in the process? No, of course not; because then all us would sit in our pews every Sunday morning with nothing to say; including our pastors.

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47. Julie Anne,I'm not sure which elephant you wanted exposed, but one thing that made me very uncomfortable with Fred's comment was the crassly sexist remark. The elephant is not so much the remark itself but the fact that it's something that can be said when we know our audience is mainly conservative Christians. I'd be very surprised if Fred didn't have the good sense to never ask an applicant in a job interview, "Where's your husband in all this?" If he did lack the sense he'd find himself in trouble very quickly (and rightfully so). Some might say that our morality shouldn't be like that of the world. I agree. It should be better. In wrestling with how abuse can find fertile ground in basically orthodox churches we should take a look at sexism. When our circles tolerate what is clearly seen more broadly as wrong, our moral compass is compromised. This opens the door to abusive control. It's also a partial answer to Old Mom's very good question, "Why don't people just leave?" When our moral center is compromised we make bad decisions, ones that are destructive even to ourselves or our families. I would expand on this, but I don't want to hijack the thread. Perhaps this would be a good topic for another time.To be clear, I'm not saying Fred is a crass sexist. I don't know him well enough to pass such a judgment. I'm more than willing to think better of him than is indicated by what I hope is just a careless remark.

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48. Thank you for your kind remarks. I feel very welcomed here. I firmly believe, however, that I have more to learn from you than you do from me.

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49. David Cho kind of beat me to the punch on this, but I'll have to say in Fred's defense that I expected him to pull the Husband Card much sooner than he did. My question would be: If Julie Anne were "Julian," and all other conditions were identical, would he have asked Julian where his wife was in all this? It's a serious question, and I don't presume to know the answer, though I think have good reasons to suspect that, if I had to guess correctly, I could. SMG

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50. Another great example of suffering without retaliation is Jesus!1 Peter 2:18-23 – “Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth. When they hurled their insults at Him, He did not retaliate; when He suffered, He made no threats. Instead, He entrusted Himself to Him who judges justly.” Of course, we cannot live up to this example. And when dealing with the emotional effects of spiritual abuse, we all fall short. (Those who have been through it, that is). We react angrily, instead of responding lovingly. We say things we should not, and do things we should not. We just have to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and surrender to God and His ultimate plan for us (to conform us to the image of Jesus – making us like Christ).

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51. Hi Craig,Great comment, as usual, Craig. I was probably too focused on what I thought to be bigger issues that I didn't identify that comment as sexist, initially. I believe it was a comment meant to distract from the bigger issue and get me roused up and I didn't want to take the bait. But the bigger issue to me (and what I think is the biggest white elephant of all) is pastors who are supposed to be looking out for the flock, yet abandon them when the battered sheep cry out for help. I'm noticing a disturbing trend especially among popular and celebrity pastors to defend pastors, even overlooking blatant abuse issues, in order to protect the image of the pastor. I find that behavior abhorrent and completely against scripture.Craig – can you send me an e-mail when you get a chance? I'd like to ask you more about that topic for another time. bgbcsurvivors @ gmail dot com

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52. Please pardon me for a sec, Craig. If you are the kind of guy I think you are, you might not like this attention. Oh well, it's my blog, deal with it ;)Readers: What you see above ^^ is humility. Just in case you may have missed earlier comments, Craig has identified himself as as an assistant pastor. Another time he admitted he is learning about spiritual abuse. He also reached out to Fred asking questions. He again reminded Fred that he wanted to wrestle with those questions/issues that Fred seems to be ignoring (intentional or not, I do not know) – not in a sense of who is right or wrong, but to get to a point of understanding these important issues. Let me just lay it out for you here based on what I have observed. We need to be looking for these kinds of characteristics in pastors (along with good doctrine):1. Humble2. Teachable3. Willing to discuss tough issues without retaliation or threats4. Speaks out against sexismStay true to this, Craig. Good stuff.

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53. Hi Lydia: Thanks for commenting. You said "Amen" to Old Mom's post (which seemed a bit critical of me) earlier and now I'm reading this comment from you and trying to make sense of it without speculating your intentions. Can you please just lay it on the table for me? I won't bite. Well, I'll try not to. :)Are you troubled by this blog? Do you think I am reacting in anger instead of lovingly? Do you think I should just dust off myself and walk away? I really want to understand you and where you are coming from. Thanks!JA

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54. SMG, he brought that husband card up much earlier (I can't find the date, but it was probably last week) on his own blog:And I am guessing your concluded this after a period of time at this church? And it didn't raise any red flags with you and your family? Your husband, whom I suppose is to be shepherding your family, didn't clue into this? Why? (http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2012/05/sheep-attacks.html#3322892521996149992)

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55. Hi Julie Anne,I agree with what Old Mom said, which is why I said "Amen." 🙂 I felt that she has a Biblically sound perspective on the matter, and she expressed it non-abrasively. I don't feel she was trying to be critical in what she said, nor was I trying to be critical in agreeing with her.I am not troubled by this blog. I completely understand (being victorious through spiritual abuse) the emotions that come with spiritual/emotional abuse. (I feel the two are connected). Sometimes, our feelings take precedence (I've seen some mention of your anger in one or two posts) over Christ-likeness. I certainly don't feel that's the general tone of your blog, and I certainly don't condemn you for it … I've been there myself.Now, I did not say to dust off and walk away. I said in the context of finding ourselves away from Christ-likeness,"We just have to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and surrender to God and His ultimate plan for us (to conform us to the image of Jesus – making us like Christ)." The only time you need to walk away is when you need to walk to surrendering to God's will. I can't determine that for you. (Haha, nor do I want to). What I think in this situation, or what I did in this situation, is irrelevant in light of God's will for you. You are the one who prayerfully determines that.There have been multiple comments regarding not just sitting silently, and certainly those verses in 1 Peter speak directly to that. Julie Anne, I think you have been quite loving to the people you used to attend church with. You clearly let them know that even though they shunned you, you have open arms for them. That's quite a testimony. However, based on how you speak of him, I wonder: would you have the same open arms for Pastor O'Neal if he ever came to you (in a repentant spirit, of course)?What I take issue with is how our brother Fred Butler has been dealt with in this post and the previous post. I don't know what comments before these two posts he has posted, but I did browse his blog for a considerable time the other day. While he may be abrasive in what he says, it's so very clear to me that he is just trying to be Biblically discerning about this. (From his blog). And yet above, we have people trying to discredit him in ministry, saying that they don't regard him as a brother in Christ. That troubles me. I hope this comment doesn't get me labeled as a wolf or a non-believer 🙂

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56. Malinda – proud to call you my sistah! 🙂

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57. Fair enough, Lydia – you gave me some things to think about and also raised some very legitimate points. I think I see where you are coming from. I'm sure that someone could find places where anger or sarcasm has shown its ugly head from me here. I give permission for you (or anyone) to call me out on that. That is an ongoing personal battle.Nothing would give me greater joy than to see Chuck repent. Obviously there is something good in him or we wouldn't have remained for two years. I have a draft post discussing one of the most difficult relational/forgiveness experiences I have dealt with – maybe I should scoot that up on the publishing schedule. I think you would understand my heart better after reading it. There is so much wasted energy in revenge and retaliation. That's not my goal. As far as Fred goes – I have been disturbed by some of his comments, but am willing to continue dialoging with him. I really don't think he understands spiritual abuse in the sense that so many have experienced it here. I am sometimes saddened by the comments that I publish from readers. That's a hard one. I do want this to be a place where people are free to discuss differing opinions and sometimes people don't comment as graciously as they could (put me in that camp). These are emotional issues and sometimes it's not bad to express a little righteous anger, but I hear you that sometimes it crosses that line.Thanks, Lydia!

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58. David Johnson wrote in another thread: "ok, c.t., i'll buy that. i don't see in any holes in what you wrote. you're re-framing things for me. giving me some language i believe i have lost."I find that the older theologians, like an a Brakel from the Dutch Second Reformation, use this language. In his massive systematic theology he titled the Christian's Reasonable Service, he has dedicated chapters on how Christians are prophets, priests, and kings; and a dedicated chapter on what the fear of God means vis-a-vis the fear of man. Things like that. Fortunately this expensive four volume work has been made available by the English translator free at his blog in PDFs:http://www.abrakel.com/Click on 'a Brakel's Magnum Opus' in the top bar.Keep in mind that is the English translator's blog, so there are no copyright issues.

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59. Old Mom,I, like you, always had a hard time understanding why people are unable to see when a church isn't healthy. As a teenager I attended a youth group at a church similar to BGBS but quit as soon as I became uncomfortable. If I could see it, why couldn't adults? Then I became acquainted with a group of women survivors of clergy sexual abuse. For several years, the church retreat center I ran hosted their annual retreat. The women would call to make their reservations and start spilling their stories to me. At first, I thought they were simply idiots. Most of the survivors were not "traditional" rape victims, as we think of them. Rather the sexual abuse occurred in relationships with clergy (because of the power relationship and the connection from pastor to God, it was sexual abuse) so I couldn't see why they couldn't see the stories the clergy were telling them were complete lies. Like you I thought they simply weren't accepting responsibility.I really started listening and reading and trying to see the church through another's eyes. That when I came to understand that just because it's easy for me to see a minister as just another person who doesn't have any stronger a connection to God than me, doesn't mean everyone can do that. You know how pedophiles know which kids to pick and groom? Clergy do the same with adults. Some people, because of their childhood or their past, are simply more vulnerable. Some people are simply more trusting. Discernment is a gift not given to everyone. You can be full of the Holy Spirit yet taken in by a master manipulator. People can be completely convinced they are at fault when rejected or condemned by a pastor or by an entire church.I was going to suggest you read Julie Anne's blog posting about what happened with her daughter and her pastor – relating to them following his advice in dealing with her and that rupturing the parent/child relationship. However, it looks like that post disappeared. You can read "In Honor of Hannah" under April and get a feel for the story. It's such a typical story of a pastor using his power to give terrible advice to parents. Something else to consider – it's against the law in most states for therapists to have outside relationships with patients, even up to five years after they quit being patients. That's because people trust what therapists say – their education and position give them power. It's the same with clergy. Their position gives them power. Just because you and I don't see them that way (I've had too many friends who were ministers!) doesn't mean that's not true for many church members.

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60. Jesus kicked the money changers out of the temple, and, quite frankly, the laity need to be prepared and, when pastors abuse and seize control of the church, and do damage to the flock, then the laity needs to kick the abusive pastor out of the church. The church Jesus created needs to be a place of love not of abuse and control of the flock by an abusive person.Laity means the "people of God" and all Christians are priests. The ground is level at the foot of the cross, all are equal. There are no super Christians, and authoritarian rule by the pastor is not appropriate in a Christian congregation.

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61. Jackie – That's a good idea to mention In Honor of Hannah. This particular post is by far the most popular post on the blog (nearly 1,000 hits higher than the next most popular). I think the link was sent around a lot when the media was hot on the story. I read a few sites where people posted the link and they were aghast and some were really, really angry at me at the way I treated Hannah. In fact, you can read that in the comments beneath the post. It's very heated and emotional. Spiritual abuse can cause one to lose even basic common sense on so many issues. Your brain can become captive to another person's rules and ideas. This is head-trippy stuff!!People (including pastors and naysayers) like facts to show what really happened and in this story, you can see it's really not about facts. It shows unspoken rules on how we dealt with our "rebellious" kid (who really wasn't a kid, btw). I still cannot read this without crying – I can't believe we did this :::::ACK::::: makes me want to scream!!!

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62. Here I've made it easy to reference the great Dutch Second Reformation theologian Wilhelmus à Brakel (1635-1711) on the subject of Christians being prophets, priests, and kings, and how Christians are:http://electofgod.blogspot.com/2012/06/wilhelmus-brakel-on-christians-being.htmlAlso I give a reference to the free online edition of à Brakel's work to where he talks of the fear of God (vs. the fear of man) which is relevant to Julie Anne's blog's subject. For doctrinal reference Wilhelmus à Brakel was a Dutch Puritan, a straight Calvinist (classical Covenant – Federal – Theology) and about as staid and authoritative a Christian theologian one could ever find in any part of the world in any era. You'll see in the section on how Christians are to be kings how strong the Puritans were on the subject of liberty of God's people. Not license, not antinomianism, but real liberty in Christ.

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63. The more I see of "Macarthur people" the less respect I have for the man. His zealots/fans seem to elevate him to a level of god-like worship that totally creeps me out. This Fred clown strikes me as a hanger on that fantasizes about achieving notoriety. The best thing the church can do to clean it self up is stop tithing, buying all these books from the likes of Macarthur and supporting all these parasites. Fred is just another parasite watanabe. The church world is full of them.

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64. (Julie Anne, I know the follow 2 comments are long and if you want to edit or delete, please feel free)Old Mom,Okay, I will try to explain from my own experience.In these abusive churches, many people do leave. My former church has an incredible turn-over rate in membership. Here's the thing. For me, I grew up – from infant – in a spiritually abusive home and church. My very first pastor was a pedophile (and I was not one of his direct victims, though I was a victim of one of his victims…). In the home, I was taught not to question spiritual authority. Now, in my home, my mother was that 'authority' and boy did she teach me how much God was disappointed in me – starting with His being disappointed with me allowing myself to be molested. I was 2.As I grew up and did my damnedest to bury that, I also became more and more disgusted with the church in general. Unfortunately, what I was taught growing up so intertwined God and the religious institution that when I walked away from church at 16, I was pretty sure God was angry with me.Fast forward through twenty years of some pretty hellish experiences, including trying to take my own life, and you get to where I was so hungry for that felt presence of God (who never left me, by the way) that I decided to go back to church. I picked a real prize. At the time, however, I was so convinced that 20 years out of church and all the attendant crap I lived through, made me somehow spiritually inferior to those who were leading this church. And they sure made sure that idea was reinforced.(continued

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65. (part 2 – Julie Anne, make that 3 comments)Understand, I am not stupid – I have a well above average IQ. It's not about intelligence. It's about self-perception. I was desperately looking for a place to belong – for family. And over the course of 7 years, I became very involved in this church. And here's the thing. It was reinforced – subtly, not blatantly, that this church was the only one that had the real, life-saving truth. Hmm…how to explain. One of the classic tactics of cult leaders in their efforts to brainwash is that they will make their 'sermons' a little interactive. The will ask the congregation simple questions that are obviously truth – like, 'God is Love, right?' They will ask several simple questions along these lines, then – after everyone is emotionally primed by responding 'yes' to these questions, they will begin slipping in the false statements, subtly, and the congregation has already been trained to say 'yes', so this slips under the radar – one piece at a time, until they actually have you believe that God talks to them about you and they hold the power of your destiny because they are appointed leaders over you. Afraid to leave? You bet! I was afraid to leave. The day I quit my leadership and membership, I spent 2 1/2 hours sitting in the pastor's office being interrogated and threatened by him and his wife. I was told that if I left, I would have no spiritual covering and would be quickly deceived. Ironic, that. I was afraid for my own salvation for two years after I left.You mention applying Matthew 18 to the situation. First, you have to be able to see that the pastor is NOT speaking for God – you have to be able to separate out from the teachings to recognize that any problems you see are not, in fact, just you.

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66. (part 3)I anticipate that you might suggest that if we read our Bibles, we would know that we couldn't lose our salvation by leaving a church. Well, during the time I attended and led in this church, I read the Bible through from beginning to end at least 5 times – in different translations. I studied with great zeal – was even enrolled in a online Bible school that taught similar to what this pastor did/does. But this pastor is an expert at twisting the Scriptures to mean what he wants in order to control people. And it is so subtle. Even now, more than 5 years out, I still have difficulty reading the Bible because the twisting this man did lingers and causes pain and fear when I read those passages.You use the story of Joseph. When Joseph fled, he was not under the fear that Potiphar's wife was able to affect his standing with God. These men train you to believe that they hold the power of your very salvation in their hands. Leaving without their blessing meant probable damnation. Having been trained from infancy to believe that another – an authority figure – held power over my life made me especially vulnerable to this kind of manipulation.And it took watching this man who calls himself 'Anointed of God' target a close friend who came to him for marriage counseling because she was trapped in an abusive marriage to get me hurt and angry enough to leave. She was so starved for just simple human kindness, that she was extremely vulnerable to his attentions – which started gradually and built up over time. He used the things he learned from her in counseling to manipulate her. When the wife got tired of it and confronted him, my friend was thrown out, shunned, blamed and threatened.Then we found out that he has a pattern of doing this. We know for sure there were at least four.The thing is , these guys are master manipulators. It is, if you will, their stock in trade. I know for someone who has not experienced it first hand, it is difficult to understand and easy to pass judgment. I pray our Father give you wisdom and let you see and understand. How on earth can anyone keep you from leaving a church? The same way abusive husbands keep their wives from leaving – abusive parents keep their children in line. Teach them that the problem is their own sinful nature and if they would just get in line and behave properly/believe properly, all the problems would go away. Teach them to fear getting 'out of line'. That is how.

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67. I'll tell you when that becomes hard to do (kicking him out). When his manipulative ways have worked on insecure folks who he manages to rally to his side. When the *thinking* congregation – one by one – has left. And the laity who has hung in there realizes too late that this guy has to go – but there's nobody left in the church any more who will stand against this bully (they don't see him that way, and they want to be told how to tie their shoes). Those who've had their eyes opened have already left, and rightly so. What I am asking myself these days, is … is this whole church set up with a pastor at the top even scriptural. It seems to tempt and lure those prone to authoritarian ways.

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68. Dear Jeanette,First of all, let me thank you for taking the time to write out your story; it is very enlightening. Secondly, let me say that I am so sorry for what happened to you, and so thankful that the Lord is bringing you out of it. I know I cannot even begin to imagine how painful it has been for you. When I read it to my husband he said “don’t these “pastors” read their Bibles? Aren’t they afraid of how horribly they are offending not only their sheep but a Holy God”? It sounds very similar to what happened to my friend. When she would try to tell her mother about something that was done to her she was told, “you can’t tell anyone because then they (the perpetrator) won’t be able to go to church and they will go to hell and it will be your fault.” In both her, and your case it seems like a horrific combination of very misguided/deluded parenting AND membership in a church that perpetuated and supported ultra authoritarian behavior. My own background is very different, so I’m not certain that I will be able to completely and utterly grasp the concept of not being able to leave a destructive and evil situation.despite your very articulate explanation. I have never been in a position of feeling that my salvation was at the mercy of any human’s discretion. I can COMPLETELY understand, though how if raised that way from infancy…it would be part of one’s wiring and have a stranglehold that I am existentially unfamiliar with. Please forgive me if I minimized this or over simplified it. I have two major concerns over what I’ve been reading here on the posts and the comments:Firstly, if indeed there was illegal behavior as has been vaguely alluded to, then it should have been handled by reporting it to authorities and not by a Google/Dex review. I think this was both unwise and unbiblical. THAT BEING SAID what my mama’s heart wants to do is have Julie Anne over for coffee, put my arms around her, and cry with her for how out of hand this has gotten. It was foolish to publicly humiliate the pastor, and it was un-Christlike, I pray often that the Lord would see fit to compel Chuck to drop the lawsuit. Again, foolish and unbiblical….not to mention that he is held to a higher standard since he has called himself an overseer. Seondly, and almost more troubling to me, is that because in this case and the majority of the others, the perpetrators are males in authority folks here seem anxious to mimic the ardent feminism and male bashing that exists in our culture, and to place that preference over scripture.(understand…I am not saying there do not exist horribly sexist men in both the church and the world; I am saying that we cannot ignore God's design simply because it has been abused and misused by some) Poor Fred has been vilified and called all sorts of names for simply asking Julie Anne where her husband stood in all this. How can that be a bad thing to ask a Christian woman? Did the Lord not design male headship in the home, as pointed out in Ephesians?

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69. Old Mom: The illegal activity was reported to authorities; however, there were approximately 8 months where it was "handled" by the pastor, because the pastor said he would take care of it (JA's admitted sarcasm: yea, right – and at whose expense?). During that time, I went to the nursery to nurse my baby and the offender was in there with me. No other adult was in the room. At that time I did not know he was a sex offender (I was told weeks after we were gone from the church). Obviously, nothing would have happened while I was in the room with him; however, it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary for me to ask him to keep an eye on my child while I excused myself to the restroom. It makes me wonder how many other lapses occurred? I've since read court documents that they supposedly had safeguards in place – that the offender was always to have a designated adult with him. Obviously, as my experience shows, there was a serious lapse in whatever system they had. Regardless, if you read what this teen was charged with, any normal human being would be shocked that a church could "take care" of this situation. Come on. The kid lived with young siblings at home. Regarding "poor" Fred? I'm sorry, Old Mom, but can you please copy and paste an example of Fred showing real love and genuine care for the wounded sheep? Isn't that what this is all about? Instead he distracts the real issue and gets on his pet topics wondering what my husband is doing, etc. The rest of your discussion on that topic is not giving me warm fuzzies right now, in fact, I need to hit publish right now and stop typing.

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70. Julie Anne,I'm not an apologist for anyone, not your former pastor, and not Fred. I was simply pointing out that he was attacked for asking a very reasonable question because it seems to me that some are throwing out the baby (biblical gender roles) with the bath water(the sinful abuse of biblical gender roles). I don't in any way want to upset you, and if you would prefer that I not post any more comments, I will respectfully abide by your wishes.

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71. Old Mom (I feel weird typing that every time – lol),No way! Please continue to post. Don't mind my ranting. This is the beauty of relationships and contending and getting to the crux of these difficult issues (which is why I so appreciated Craig's post). I don't ever want to squelch good discussion here. As I sit behind the screen and see posts to moderate, there are times when I hit the "publish" link and cringe, but this stuff is real, and painful, and strong emotions are evoked. We can't deny this reality. My point is this is not a topic about biblical gender roles.

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72. Julie Anne, Well, I am a mom and I am old…and I'm not very warm and fuzzy in print…lol. Different story in my kitchen, though.While this particular thread, contending for the faith, may not be about biblical gender roles, I think that for the Christian….EVERYTHING is biblical. And, I think that in trying to sort out the circumstances that you find yourself in, other Christians are going to want to systematically go down the list and check off whether certain biblical precedents have been met. Can anyone explain to me what was so egregious about asking you where your husband stands in all this? (not saying you have to divulge that information…just saying it flows naturally from anyone coming from a biblical view of the family).Could Fred have put it a bit more delicately and respectfully? Yes, he certainly could have. But my goodness people….are we so touchy and so in love with our gender neutral world that a man asking a woman a difficult question is sexism???And Julie Anne, I stand corrected about one thing. If you had knowledge of the church harboring a sex offender and the full extent of the law was not put into place to protect the church’s children, then you likely had no choice but to issue a public warning. I respectfully suggest though that the ad hominem attacks on the pastor while doing that were not a good idea, as much as he might deserve them.

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73. Old Mom – What ad hominem attacks? Can you please identify them?Re: my husband – this topic is not relevant to the abuse or the caseOld Mom: You did not address this issue:Regarding "poor" Fred? I'm sorry, Old Mom, but can you please copy and paste an example of Fred showing real love and genuine care for the wounded sheep?Old Mom: Who is publicly speaking out about Chuck filing a lawsuit?Who is publicly speaking out about Chuck amending the lawsuit to add an additional person? Who is speaking out about the abuse?Who is reaching out to the people who have been abused and abandoned their faith?Who is showing real love and trying to help those people get back on their feet?What is all of this ridiculous time being wasted on me and my methods when spiritual lives are at stake? Is God sovereign? Will He deal with me as He sees fit if He thinks I have done wrong? Do you trust Him to do that?It feels like people are trying to spank me (not just you, Old Mom, many, many others). Okay, spank me. Now can we be done with me?I am very, very sad that Julie Anne Smith has become the distraction for many. Dear God, please remove me as the distraction so people can see clearly what is going on. Amen!

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74. For the record: I don't agree with calling Fred a "wolf". I do have issues with Fred and am still hoping to dialog with him. I do not believe that Fred has a full grasp of what spiritual abuse really means. But I would not call him a "wolf" without having much more information. Perhaps David has that information, but I do not.

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75. True, BR, and those who remain have already seen the way those who have left are treated. So, to them it becomes: do I stay endure the pastor and his ways which are only somewhat tolerable if I tow the line and stay out of trouble? or do I leave and risk lawsuits, unannounced visits months after leaving, nasty e-mails, etc? There's no win-win situation here. That is why I am speaking out. These people are stuck. It's not just a matter of leaving and being done with it.

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76. Thank you, c.t. for this information and showing us how to find it more easily.

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77. Old Mom,From my view, Fred's question is clearly sexist. I'm sorry if my writing that offends you. It's sexist because he writes it in the context of an argument concerning the credibility of complaints against a pastor. In effect the question says, "Julie Anne, your perspectives and feelings don't really count because you're a woman." Was that Fred's intent? I don't know. If his intent was to express, in the context of a Biblical understanding of marriage, a concern for Julie Anne's growth and marriage then I applaud his intent but am appalled at his poor choice of expression and venue. It cheapens a Biblical understanding of marriage to use it as a tactic in an argument that has nothing to do with marriage. I hope this doesn't mean I'm not welcome in your kitchen.

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78. wish I could edit my typos: toe the line!

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79. After reading some of these posts, it just reminds me that my hope is to be in Christ and Christ alone. Keeping my eye on the prize, my hope and belief that God holds pastors at a higher standard and they will answer for the uncaring and slaughter of HIS children.The pastors who have slunked into the background or taken the fence approach, while passively rebuking those who have been ripped to shreds by wolves will be held accountable by God Himself.So then what am I do to? Walk humbly with my God, love mercy and love those who He puts in my path with action and truth.I pray for you Julie Anne for being in the front of this battle must be exhausting at times, but I know you are aware of who gives us the peace, strength and resolve to stand strong and be courageous. Thankfulness to Christ who delivers us from every fear and makes us victorious~when we meet Him face to face and are welcomed into HIS LOVING ARMS!Keep up the good fight, be loving and discerning and remember not to engage with those who won't stand for the truth.You are a blessing to me.

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80. Old Mom, I’m going to risk sticking my nose in where it may not belong. But because I referred to Fred Butler's “playing the Husband Card” in one of my comments on this thread, I fear I may have contributed to some unnecessary rancor that has become a significant part of the larger discussion.Old Mom, I, for one, appreciate the contribution that your comments have made to this discussion. Regarding gender issues, I probably agree more with you than I do with many other readers of this blog and blogs like it, so I am particularly sensitive to the misunderstanding that my choice of the term “Husband Card” might have caused. You ask in one of your exchanges with Julie Anne, “Can anyone explain to me what was so egregious about asking you where your husband stands in all this?” Speaking for myself–and not Julie or anyone else–I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking this. Long before Julie posted her first piece responding to Fred Butler, I myself wondered where her husband stood on all this. Where this type of question can become problematic–even for some of us with significant complementarian sympathies–is when the asking of that question is, in reality, coded language designed to shut down dissent, simply because the dissenter is a woman. An enormous and diverse set of doctrinal positions has been spun out of 1 Timothy, Titus, and other passages in the New Testament addressing relations between men and women. Your appeal to “God’s design for male headship in the home” and “biblical gender roles” gives us some idea of where you stand on those issues. Many readers of this blog surely reject these notions as prima facie sexism. I do not. However, in the seemingly endless horizon of positions on what constitutes “biblical” relations between men and women–both in the home and in the family–some have taken to extreme, and I believe demonstrably unwarranted, positions on gender relations. And that brings us back to the “Husband Card.” My deployment of this term is similar to that of the “Race Card”: a pulling of rank–based on the immutable characteristics of the card holder–in order to shut down conversations. By pulling the Husband Card, the dealer is saying, “Why are we even having this dicussion? What’s a woman doing with her own blog, publicly criticizing a man (and an ordained one at that) in a theological or ecclesiastical context? That’s a man’s job. Doesn’t this woman have a husband?”There’s a lot of this thinking going around. Rarely will it be expressed as plainly as I have done so above. Frequently, it’s couched in softened, albeit patronizing terms, such as, “When it comes to the public airing of theological controversy, that’s best left to the men” (both Tim Bayly and Doug Wilson have used almost identical language on their blogs in the last year). Leaving the biblical wrongheadedness of this view aside (even from a complementarian perspective), I trust that this explanation of my perspective — and my use of such a loaded term — adds to the clarity of the present discussion, and that you and others will find it helpful, even if you disagree with it. Finally, In my own defense, I want to point out that in my “husband card” comment, I had actually complimented Fred Butler for taking as long as he did to ask Julie about her husband. And if his curiosity is just that — curiosity — then I have no problem with his asking it.

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81. Old Mom:First, there is no such thing as 'biblical gender roles'. Christ changed all of that and Paul said "In Christ there is neither . . .." So called biblical gender roles are for people who are NOT IN CHRIST. So if you believe in them, you are choosing a path that is not in Christ. Sexism is a sin of denying the priesthood of people of both genders. (Name a gender role and I can show you counterexamples in the Bible, other than the fact that one gender births children.)Second, Julie Anne was carrying out a biblical mandate to protect the sheep from a wolf, in this case Chuck O'Neal.

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82. Jeannette:First, as an attorney and a Christian, I have dealt with pastors who sexually abuse church members and employees. Men come in three flavors: those who never cheat on their wives, those who cheat once and are so terrified that they never do so again, and those we call predators, always on the prowl for a victim. Applies to male pastors as well.Typically if anyone finds out, the victim is blamed for seducing the "man of God" (as if there were such a thing!), and he is forgiven, given a leave of absence "to recover (!!!)", and restored to his former position. This is a massive sin by the church leadership and the congregation if it is they who do these things.NO ONE SHOULD SIT AND LISTEN TO SUCH A PASTOR PREACH, EVER.And if the congregation does not boot the perpetrator (the pastor), then they are elevating him to a point of idolatry.

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83. Jule,Stand Strong in the knowledge that you have done and are doing what is right and proper. The attacks on you are totally scurrilous and come from the kind of people who empower abusive pastors (and sometimes abusive husbands and fathers), because they have been taught a false interpretation of the New Testament (in part based on a bad interpretation of the original languages). Even the family codes in the NT were so advanced for their time that they elevated women above where they had ever been since before the fall. There is much literature on these issues that advocates from Biblical perspectives for equality of women in the home and in the church. Keep in mind that the first Apostle (person commissioned by the Risen Christ to share the message of his resurrection) was a woman, Mary Magdalene, who then preached that message to all of the then existing church except the two who left for Emmaus.

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84. I had some very pointed and firm things to say to Julie Anne that I felt were inappropriate for public consumption so I have responded to her via email out of respect for her.I also told her that I would not be commenting here any longer because I feel very badly that I have gotten the topic away from the one that she chose “Contending for the faith”. Please forgive me; it is not my place to force a discussion about a topic that the owner of the blog does not wish to get into.God bless.

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85. I received a private e-mail response from Old Mom (as she mentioned above). I responded to her e-mail and challenged her to bring her comments here, that they were fine to discuss on the blog. It is not inappropriate to disagree on topics. We learn and grow in these kinds of discussions. Old Mom might be able to teach me a thing or two and perhaps many others. Bring it on, old Mom :)We don't need to agree on everything. These are not salvation issues, but secondary issues. But these issues do have to do with what I have been running into when talking with pastors about my story. It is my personal opinion that this questioning about my husband's involvement/non-involvement is a diversion tactic that has been used to avoid dealing with real issues of abuse. So in that sense, it absolutely is a relevant topic.I would like keep this thread going to allow Fred an opportunity to respond. Sometimes when I put up a new post, the tendency is to let the old thread die out. So I'm allowing Fred this extra time. So, carry on . . .

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86. Thank you, Arce. Coming from a bit of patriarchal influence, your thoughts are a bit foreign to me. However, after experiencing four people (3 pastors and now Fred) use this "method" in dealing with me, and realizing they completely missed an opportunity to get involved in this issue in a positive way, I am convinced that there is something amiss. I will be digging deeper and I always appreciate your support, as you well know.

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87. Those are good words. Really! Thank you 🙂

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88. I would like to say how delightful it has been to read many of the comments in this thread. Especially to Craid Vick, Old Mom, Lydia Thomas, and Julie Anne–thank you for responding truthfully but in love. You in particular have demonstrated that we can disagree and challenge one another without getting nasty. Hats off to you and others I didn't mention.P.S. Old Mom, may we all come to your kitchen? I'll bet it smells like cookies…

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89. Just to make sure there is no confusion: in my e-mail correspondence with Old Mom, she said she was not aware that my husband had given me the green light to post both the Google reviews and blog. I showed him the initial Google review, he read it, gave his okay for me to post. The same goes for the blog. My husband subscribes to my blog. No, I do not submit each post to him for approval. I post to my little heart's content (well, after prayerful consideration and most of the time, attitude checks – I may have missed some of those attitude checks from time to time –oops).

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90. An Attorney (same as earlier)-Yes. Your comment just very accurately describes the state of affairs that still exists in this 'church'.

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91. Julie Ann, I find the conversation above interesting…yet for me, I just want to know how to heal from the spirtual abuse that my family and i have experienced. Even though it happened years ago, I feel the sting every day… Even though I am involved in ministry, I keep a protective wall build around me. Yes, I have asked God to heal me, even expected Him to do so. I've taken what I can from my experiences and learned from them Yet what these couple people in leadership did to me and my family and their shunning have changed who we are. The hurt is so deep for my daughter that she did not even want to be married in the church. Yes,she so loves God, she honors him. Yet being told that she was not welcome to attend the youth group at our church due to the fact she was an insulin dependent diabetic almost ended her life. In junior high, she quit testing her blood and quit taking her insulin as she thought, if I can't go to church and fit in, I don't want to live. I know that the people in leadership made a very wrong decision. I know this. But, we have never heard an "I am sorry" and to this day, my daughter feels that she does not belong at church. This was just one situation that has been painful. Nelieve me, there are more. So, my question is, how do we heal?

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92. Hmm…I have thought about this response all day. It may be a rant and, as always, Julie Anne is welcome to delete….What I am responding to is the the question of whether or not Fred should have asked where Julie Anne's husband was in all of this. It has been suggested that this is a reasonable for him to ask and that disagreeing with him is going against 'biblical gender roles.'Please understand that this attitude – the one that implies that a woman has no business speaking about things without the permission of a man – is exactly the attitude and teaching that creates the climate where abusers can abuse with immunity. Any time the abused tries to speak up against the abuse, they are told to be quiet, they have no right to speak. Do you not see how that perpetuates the abuse and re-victimizes the victim? I am going to be blunt. It is the same kind of attitude that tells a women who has just been raped that her 'story' doesn't matter because she didn't tell it the way the hearers think she should have told it. When someone who is being/has been abused tells their story and the response is 'you didn't tell it the right way', that implies that the 'way' they communicate their story is more important than the story itself – more important than they are. I have run into this my whole life in religious circles – trying to tell my story, find help – compassion – and being met with the whole religious 'how dare you say that.' It seems, from my experience, that often people would rather play the role of 'doctrine police' rather than really hear what is going horribly wrong within the institutional system called church. I often wonder if it is because people care more about the religious status quo and their position in it and they don't want to hear anything that might threaten that. It seems, from my perspective, that they would rather sacrifice the abused on the altar of doctrine. Is it any wonder that many of the abused walk away from the church for good?

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93. Ran out of tears: I want to tell you that of course I saw your post when I released it from moderation. I want to respond to it, but will have to wait until this afternoon when I have more time to give a thoughtful response. Hang tight, okay?

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94. Jeannette – Julie Anne just rose from her comfy couch and is waving the white hanky! Oh myyyyyy, Sistah, this is e.x.a.c.t.l.y. along the lines I have in my unfinished response to Fred. hahahaha "JA is welcome to delete" – – – I think NOT! :)I'm glad you were stewing on this all day, your words spoke for me. Thank you!

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95. Ran: Hugs to you from a mother of another child discriminated against in church. I haven't got the answer. At least my child is young enough that he was not aware of the rejection we received. I would also like an apology, but it wouldn't change anything. I am choosing to forgive, not because they deserve it but because I do not deserve the forgiveness of Christ. All I know is that we are all imperfect and those who exclude the "different" among us are still being worked on. It helps to realize that sometimes trials are not about us and that sometimes extremely beautiful results come out of heartache.

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96. Jeannette and Julie Anne,Seems that sinful, bullying, abusive male domination of women is being confused and related here to the God ordained male headship with regards to a HUSBAND and wife in the home. (Ephesians 5:22-24).Is it so hard to believe that God in His wisdom appointed an arbiter in the marriage relationship so that if both parties are submitting to Christ and yet disagree that there is a way to solve the issue at hand? Is it so hard to believe that God in His wisdom and creative genius also shaped this arbiter to be equipped for the job? And…that He gave that arbiter VERY strict instructions? “Husbands love your wives, as Christ loved the church, and gave himself up for her” (Ephesians 5:25—-the verse that bullies and jerks seem to ignore when they hone in on vs 22-24).

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97. Any pastor and/or any church that rejects a child or youth because of a disability or other difference must be exposed to protect other children and youth from harm. Please do not just forgive, forget and move on. Please go tell someone. As an example, go to the religion reporter for the local newspaper, or to a denominational official if the church is affiliated with one, or, do as Julie Anne has done and post a review. Tell the truth and only the truth, use the name of the church and staff member involved, use an assumed name for yourself and your child with an age range (it is not untruthful to be less specific about facts than you could be — elementary school age, under school age are examples), but PLEASE expose the abusers for what they are and protect other innocents.

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98. @ RootJeremiah 8:22Is there no balm in Gilead,Is there no physician there?Why then is there no recoveryFor the health of the daughter of my people? The William and Mary Choir sings "There is a Balm in Gilead" by William Dawson at their 2008 Homecoming concert. Soloist: Michael Blaakman

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99. Brilliant, Old Mom. Thank You! How simply profound!

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100. M Shephardi just bookmarked your blog for reading http://myjourneyfromspiritualabuse.blogspot.com/something you said above reminded me of something i posted two days ago: 'we are models who model. and hurt people hurt people' some new ground i’m breaking to come alongside Julie Anne in the fight against spiritual abuse and legalistic fundamentalism

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101. IMPORTANT NOTE: Someone made a false report to Symantec that Julie Anne's site is a malicious phishing site. The site was briefly on their list of such sites prior to a fuller investigation, which apparently cleared the site. However, if you use Symantec and happened to update the list in your system during the time JA's site was on the list, you may get a warning. You can do a manual update of the lists easily, just by clicking on the icon for your security system.If you use some other security provider and find yourself blocked, please notify JA and your security provider.

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