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I received a private message on Twitter a week or so ago from an elder at a church. He reached out to me after reading Beth Moore’s letter to Christian men. You may recall that Beth Moore, in her letter, asked men to put away misogyny and act Christ-like towards women. Here are a few key paragraphs from Beth Moore’s letter:
As a woman leader in the conservative Evangelical world, I learned early to show constant pronounced deference – not just proper respect which I was glad to show – to male leaders and, when placed in situations to serve alongside them, to do so apologetically. I issued disclaimers ad nauseam. I wore flats instead of heels when I knew I’d be serving alongside a man of shorter stature so I wouldn’t be taller than he. I’ve ridden elevators in hotels packed with fellow leaders who were serving at the same event and not been spoken to and, even more awkwardly, in the same vehicles where I was never acknowledged. I’ve been in team meetings where I was either ignored or made fun of, the latter of which I was expected to understand was all in good fun. I am a laugher. I can take jokes and make jokes. I know good fun when I’m having it and I also know when I’m being dismissed and ridiculed. I was the elephant in the room with a skirt on. I’ve been talked down to by male seminary students and held my tongue when I wanted to say, “Brother, I was getting up before dawn to pray and to pore over the Scriptures when you were still in your pull ups.”
I’m asking for your increased awareness of some of the skewed attitudes many of your sisters encounter. Many churches quick to teach submission are often slow to point out that women were also among the followers of Christ (Luke 8), that the first recorded word out of His resurrected mouth was “woman” (John 20:15) and that same woman was the first evangelist. Many churches wholly devoted to teaching the household codes are slow to also point out the numerous women with whom the Apostle Paul served and for whom he possessed obvious esteem. We are fully capable of grappling with the tension the two spectrums create and we must if we’re truly devoted to the whole counsel of God’s Word.
Finally, I’m asking that you would simply have no tolerance for misogyny and dismissiveness toward women in your spheres of influence. I’m asking for your deliberate and clearly conveyed influence toward the imitation of Christ in His attitude and actions toward women. I’m also asking for forgiveness both from my sisters and my brothers. My acquiescence and silence made me complicit in perpetuating an atmosphere in which a damaging relational dynamic has flourished. I want to be a good sister to both genders. Every paragraph in this letter is toward that goal.
The man who contacted me told me that Beth Moore’s letter was read at their elders’ meeting. He asked me how men could practically put into place what Beth Moore was talking about. Yes!!! I will include his questions and expand them with some of my own. This is the kind of conversations we need to be having in churches.
- There’s a challenge – especially with some cultures within church that the issue stops at the question of sexual immorality and understanding that there were other issues about how men and women relate – especially how male leaders relate were maybe not so easy to grasp for some. How can male leaders engage in healthy relationships with sisters in Christ? How can men uphold integrity for themselves and women in their day-to-day dealings with women both inside and outside the church?
- That whole fear culture – how do we get beyond that?Is there a way to move beyond that in a healthy way?
- How can we talk helpfully and appropriately and honestly as churches in dealing with misogyny?
photo credit: SMBCollege SMBC graduates serve as cross-cultural missionaries and ‘tent makers’ in locations around the world via photopin(license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Katy, “The comp men in my former abusive baptist c’hurch believe that women ‘cannot rightly divide the Word of God, so they need their “mediatorship” to explain the truths of the Scriptures”
Even when I was a comp. this concept really bothered me. Comp. men point to Job as being the “priest of his home” by default because there was no other priest. That really bothered me because I’m not between my family and Jesus. I wanted to point them to Jesus, yes, but not be an interpreter or mediator.
And that is what I think is the subtle shift from ‘good’ authority to bad authority. Any person who wants to put himself between another person and God in any spiritual sense is, in my opinion, an antichrist. I think that really changes how you look at things like church leadership. The leader cannot usually say, you must believe this, or you’re insubordinate. It’s more of a pointing someone to the truth of scripture, saying this is what I believe the scripture says about this, and hoping the Holy Spirit will close that gap. It’s a very subtle shift, but when the church is abusive, everything is about posturing to get worth and value, and being in control and honored is definitely a way for people to feel that worth. I think a lot of it (at my new church, especially) is the new leaders deciding between what are ‘theological disagreements’ and what is an essential doctrine.
My old church would excommunicate parents who didn’t practice infant baptism, for example. My new church believes infant baptism, but they don’t believe it’s an essential doctrine. I think that’s a much more mature approach.
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Serving Kids – I’d like to repost what I said to Dash:
“What had gone through my mind was that I have met and heard on two occasions men who have suffered very much more that you have – by a long way. If the grace of God was available to them – one was a holocaust survivor – to change them, then there is hope for everyone else not to let what evil others did to them become the dominating influence over the rest of their life and ruin it. Hope is a positive thing. I would like to try and offer it to you. The god you rail against I don’t believe in either, nor the revolting caricature of Christianity false teachers impart.
The real God seen in Jesus wants to give you a hope and a future, to do you good and not ill, but you won’t ever get to see this let alone experience it unless you have a change of mind and a change of heart. The God of the bible is compassionate and merciful and will one day right all the wrongs and injustice, but cannot simply let anyone off for their own wrong-doing, something true of everyone. You can be reconciled to this God. He doesn’t need to be reconciled to you.
I hope you will at least think this over rather than dismiss it as crap.”
Is it really lacking in compassion to try to point anyone to Christ and away from their suffering? This isn’t denying their suffering, let alone to belittle it, but does it have to dominate the rest of their lives? I might be the last person who should do this, but no-one else ever seems to – and the blog here is ostensibly to find resolve amongst the dissonance of churchianity.
What God can do in the life of a Corrie Ten Boom he can do in the lives of others. I’ve known people who were ordinary Christians and not well known to whom this applies, whose sufferings were real if not as great. I even tried to point CH in this direction, as gently as I know how. It’s available in my own family if sin doesn’t get in the way of it.
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Serving Kids again – briefly. Thanks for your prayers again. Guess who turned up, having last minute hopped on a plane – on Friday evening? Was sitting out the front when suddenly she appeared out of nowhere, so we had a good long weekend together.
This was really good, but the on-going battle has still to be fought to get her out of the mess she is in, and as I said above sin is still a problem. That can be very disheartening where a certain cynicism has crept in.
Still at least positively we have got somewhere in trying to communicate rather than having to walk on eggshells in case she gets ‘triggered’. Being triggered in the sense of not wanting to hear anything you don’t like because you are doing something wrong can be highly manipulative. It’s something of a generational thing.
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CH – what on earth would ever make you believe I would support Gothard? He has credible (imo) accusations of abuse against him, although technically innocent as sadly this is not going to court.
A single man lecturing on marriage – a joke, he can’t know what he is talking about.
He is also self-refuting. He goes on from what little I know about him on daughters being under their father’s protection (the old ‘covering’ heresy), only to have had teenagers ‘serving’ him alone in his office at night. Shouldn’t their parents have been protecting them from this according to his own teaching? Like all false teachers he exempts himself from what he tells others to do.
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KAS,
Didn’t you read Dash’s account, KAS? His suffering will dominate the rest of his life. The physical scars of his abuse leave him in constant pain, and will most likely shorten his lifespan. That doesn’t even address his depression and other emotional trauma.
What relief were you trying to offer Dash by “pointing him to Christ”? That Jesus will somehow magically cure his CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy), and all his other associated problems? If so, on what grounds do you make such an extravagant promise? If not, what were you trying to offer him?
And what was the point of even mentioning those two men that you’d “met and/or heard of”? Were you actually trying to make Dash feel guilty? Because these men who had suffered so so so so so much more than him (however you think you can judge that) had “found the grace of God” whereas Dash was still in pain? If the guilt-trip was truly your intent, then you need to find a new approach, KAS. Now. Even if not, I imagine that Dash took it that way. I still don’t see the point to these vague anecdotes of yours.
This is one thing you’re right about, KAS, as far as I can see. You haven’t suffered to the extent Dash and Christianity Hurts have. By your own words, you’re only acquainted with people who might have. That doesn’t qualify you to dictate to either of them how to express their anguish, or how to find peace in life.
So what if Corrie Ten Boom found Jesus? CH is not Corrie Ten Boom, or anyone else you’ve met or read about. She is herself, and no one else. The same goes for Dash. You cannot assume that what worked like a charm for others will have the same effect for anyone else.
You don’t get to determine what that looks like, KAS. Neither do I. Let those suffering the most figure it out for themselves, without the guilt-tripping and pointless comparisons.
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P.S. to KAS: I’m glad you had plenty of time to spend with your daughter. I hope she’s feeling better, and that she has lots of people in her life who love and understand her.
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KAS, this telling people that someone has had it worse than they have? This attempt to tone police because of it? It is something you have done repeatedly. It is NOT OK. Many have tried to tell you this, many times. Maybe you should listen.
I hope that I am misremembering you mentioning this daughter being abused. Perhaps you have another daughter?
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Thanks for all responses to my comments! And insomnia, short time and anxiety doesn’t help me write correctly.
Some people don’t understand or simply don’t care. These teachings it’s not about “things that we dont like to hear/love to hate”. It’s about HURTING.
In response of this post: Men can ‘end’ misogyny putting themselves in our place – it may help then to have an idea.
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KAS, I know very little about your daughter’s situation. My father died last year, and although I prodded here and there, he never opened the door to real communication. My mom insists that she just “survived” parenting us, but what she wants to hear, and what she gets from her peers is that she did a wonderful job – we’re all Christians. Up to a few years ago when I left the “fold”, we were all members of the same denomination, which is praiseworthy to her peers as well.
But, that’s where it was. My parents weren’t about to open up the can of worms about what bad choices they made parenting us, and I wasn’t going to beat my head against a brick wall.
I’ve read stories about people with similar backgrounds to me. Many of them go off the rails in order to avoid dealing with the pain. They self-medicate with drugs or alcohol, they act out in dangerous ways. I feel that I’ve somewhat repressed having to deal with those issues with workaholic tendencies – avoiding any downtime when my thoughts could go to past issues.
Maybe it’s hard to hear your child tell you that you hurt her in significant ways, but perhaps you can be open to that rather than shutting down the conversation. Maybe, as some have said, it’s the time to listen and not to talk. My parents and siblings closed the door to any reconciliation. They seem to want to ignore what happened, and be ‘adults’ about everything, while falling back into the same dysfunctional family dynamics that we had when we were kids. It’s really sad to see.
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And, for everyone in pain here: You’re strong. Even I’m not by your side physically to hug or hang out with you, even I don’t know you: I hope, with my entire heart, you get many, many blessings in your lives.
Thank you for sharing your stories, your emotions, your thoughts. Thank you all for this place.
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KAS said,
Not a Gothard supporter, but, no.
What a double standard. Married Christians think they are in a place to give never married, over age 45 year old adults such as me dating and singles advice all the time, despite the fact they don’t know the first thing about what it’s like to date past one’s 20s.
Yet they do it all the time – and most of them are in their 60s, or 70s, and got married when they were in their 20s, like back in the 1950s or 1960s, prior to hook up culture, one night stands, and dating apps and dating sites.
They also don’t understand that one has different responsibilities as a single adult at age 40 then they did when they were 20 and single.
Being single at 30+ or 40+ is not the same as being single at age 20.
I was in a serious relationship for a few years, was engaged to the guy, then dumped him. My parents were married for over 30 years. I’ve read I don’t know how many magazine articles, letters to Dear Abby, and Christian forums by married people complaining about marriage and asking marital advice questions.
As a single adult, I have a pretty good idea what a marriage looks like. Too bad that marrieds over a certain age, who married in their 20s, are basically clueless about what single adulthood is like – until they get divorced in their 30s and older and have to dip into the dating pool again if they wish to remarry.
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Lea said,
Oh lord have mercy, this was one of the attitudes or comments I got on a regular basis in the few years after my mother died, when I was trying to get emotional support.
I am an introvert, but I forced myself to get out of my comfort zone and phone up different Christian relatives, went to some local churches, too, to try and talk through the grief (I could not afford to see a therapist).
When I confided in a few of these people about the difficulty I was having with the grief, I would keep coming across Christians who were very dismissive:
They’d say sure, they were sorry about my mom’s passing, but you know (they’d say), you should remember that somewhere in the world today are starving orphans in Africa who won’t have any food to eat tonight, so see, you really have things great. So shut up and stop whining about your dead family member.
My sister plays this game a lot, too. She dismisses any of my pain and problems by saying she has life so much worse than me. (Of course, if I were to play that game with her, she’s get outraged, because she expects me to treat her concerns and feelings with tender loving care.)
That sort of approach to reason with a hurting person does not work. It actually makes them feel worse. At least it did with me.
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Serving Kids said,
Someone on this thread or another one – pertaining to sexism or abuse of girls in Christianity – was doling out the same odd advice.
I can’t remember if it was a “David” or “anon in grace” but someone was rattling off some advice about how if everyone – especially women – just accepted Jesus as Savior and minded their own sins, and realized who they were in Jesus, there would be no need for egalitarianism, or it would eradicate all sexism in the church (and the world)?
Their writing was so vague and weird I had a difficult time understanding it, but that thought was in there somewhere.
Christian platitudes do not work. Outside of miracles for physical healings I see reported on Christian TV shows, prayer does not work.
If someone has grief, depression, PTSD, or is dealing with sexism, most of the time, Jesus, prayer, or Bible reading is not going to work to halt any of that.
Jesus Christ may have died on a cross 2,000 years ago, but that did not magically wipe out all pain in the world.
People, even Christians, can and do get divorced, have loved ones die, contract cancer, struggle with sexist bosses, and are afflicted with anxiety or depression.
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As I’ve said, the church thinks that the epitome of godliness is a 22-year-old college grad that got saved his freshman year and is now gung-ho for the gospel. They send him off to seminary with his newly minted and pregnant wife, and at 25 he’s ready to tell everyone from womb to tomb what God’s will is for their life.
I knew all the answers for adults until I turned 18, and I knew all the answers for married couples until I was married, and I knew everything there was to know about parenting until I became one.
So, not surprising that Gothard, with his still 22-year-old maturity and ego solidly locked in unteachable mode is going to have absolutely horrid answers for married couples and parents.
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Daisy, “She dismisses any of my pain and problems by saying she has life so much worse than me.”
Yes. I opened up to some family members what it was like growing up in the family, and they would try to deny what happened (yes, it wasn’t fun, but it wasn’t ABUSIVE). Then they would use my insistence that it was abuse to accuse me of overreacting and having a victim mentality.
Part of it, I think is that they did not experience it as intensely as I did – there were some unique characteristics that made things more severe for me, but I think they also feel that somehow accepting our treatment as abusive means that they are somehow less.
But yes, at my father’s funeral I was really surprised by people coming up to me and it really seemed like THEY wanted to be comforted for THEIR loss. It was really awkward, and as an introvert who was also struggling at the fact that our relationship would always remain broken on this side of eternity, I had to figure out how to cleverly ignore these sorts of people. That was the other piece, of course, having people gush about how wonderful and loving and thoughtful my abusive father was, and how he sacrificed for them in ways that he would never have sacrificed for my family.
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Mark, some of your experiences resonate with me, because I went through similar things.
You mentioned in a post above how your parents didn’t like being confronted about the damage they did to you. Years after my mother passed, I tried talking to my Dad, which is difficult because we normally don’t have heart to hearts, but when I’ve tried to explain how his parenting hurt me as I was growing up (and still has ramifications on me to this day), he gets very agitated, angry, and super defensive.
My dad was a super negative, hyper critical guy, and was into low key verbal abuse, but you sound as though you went through much more severe treatment from your father than I did with mine.
Mark said,
I’m sorry you went through that. Those people should have been offering you support and comfort, not expecting you to console them.
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This page has several suggestions on how everyone can help combat sexism, patriarchy, and misogyny in the church (the post mentions a Christian theologian named Yoder, who was later found out to be sexually abusing and/or taking advantage of women):
_It’s Not about Paige Patterson, Continued: Sex and Gender Beyond Evangelicalism_ – from a site called “Righting America”
Here is part of what that page says:
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Video on You Tube:
_Wm. Paul Young on Women, Ephesians 5:22 & 1 Timothy 2:12_
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Serving Kids:
My stated purpose in my post to Dash was to try to offer hope. Did you not see that? The Christian gospel is meant to be good news.
There was no hint of a guilt trip, although it is true that we are not responsible for what others have done to us, we are responsible for how we respond to it. This can, and often is, sinful – and I speak from experience. In Dash’s case he may be so badly damaged that he can’t help his reaction, I really don’t know and wouldn’t want to judge.
I mentioned those I have met who suffering was greater because if God can do such a wonderful work of grace in their lives, this gives hope to the rest of us. It’s encouraging, something positive.
I was astonished at your response to this, together with Daisy. The Jesus of the NT does not do ‘magic’ or ‘charm’ things away – extraordinary language to use. But he does change people, he does still operate supernaturally and heal and deliver from evil. He still answers prayer. Have you never ever seen someone physically healed in an instant? It’s been very rare, but it does happen. Have you never known anyone beaten up by a bullying husband, commits adultery and then marries the man she had the affaire with, is converted, becomes a new creation in Christ and has a normal, stable and blessed family life afterwards?
You are getting angry with me (or trying not to) because you think I am trivialising other people’s suffering. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have not desire to do that. I do think that we who live in the West do need to get some perspective on what we have suffered by way of abuse in churches, particularly misuse of authority. This is not to deny it (which please note). But compared to what many have been through and are going through (e.g. Syria) we should be more reticent before complaining too much.
You may not agree with me on this, but I do at least apply it to myself. I once visited a church made up of ethnic Germans who emigrated from the former Soviet Union. I remember seeing the lined faces of the old people there who would weep as they pray. Christians who had kept the faith in the face of opposition I couldn’t even imagine. Have you any idea what they must have gone through in an atheist country where they were hated for their faith, and hated for being German as well? It made me thoroughly ashamed of my reaction what has happened to me in churches over the years (in my day it was ‘tongues’ that was the issue). Let me put it like this: I don’t think I should trivialise their suffering by comparing it with my own, because trivialising suffering is wrong.
I could be more blunt on this, but am not sure if it would be loving rather than just unnecessarily inflammatory.
Let me ask you something. Do you believe in justification by abuse? To what extent if at all does real suffering at the hands of phony religious hypocrites exempt or mitigate a reaction of rejecting the Christian gospel, and its call for repentance from our own sins? This is a difficult question if you don’t want to be glib, and needs careful thought; but it increasingly troubles me in the world of the internet.
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Lea – I have two daughters. The eldest has just made the decision to get baptised, and is a real encouragement. She has even done her first four sermons!!
The younger of the two is the one going through it at the moment.
I’m not trying to ‘tone police’. I do think that Christians who are exposing evil need to be careful to ensure they keep themselves to standards of righteousness in speech and conduct if they want their discernment to be credible.
As an addendum to the post above, there is a direct connection between unrighteous speech (or other disobedience to NT instruction) and loss of fellowship with God, in particular manifested unanswered prayer. Sounds obvious, but I had been a Christian a very long time without ‘seeing’ this with any clarity.
Team Pyro helped me see this. Endless discussions of what is wrong with everybody else (often justified), morphing into a bullying attitude, yet with one exception from Phil Johnson they never ever gave testimony to answered prayer, stopped their doctrinal arguments for once and talked about a God who actually had done something in their lives or in their churches. Doctrinal discussion as a substitute for fellowship with God in an experimental sense.
Not surprising when you spend so much time arguing parts of the NT ‘are not for today’ …. !
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I just saw that video yesterday. It’s excellent!
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KAS, my concern is that you are trying to make Christianity some sort of magic elixir. Yes, God can absolutely heal and cure all sorts of issues, and amazingly God does just that! However, that is the exception rather than the norm.
For example, Jesus didn’t snap his fingers and heal everyone on the planet. There was a greater purpose. The prophets in the OT didn’t do that either.
So, I think it is false and hurtful to say to someone who is a survivor of painful abuse to their very core that, “if they just believed, then….” That is the very same thing that they heard from their abusers. The reason they are not happy or the reason that they are being beaten and bruised is because THEY did this or that, or THEY did not do this or that.
Yes, I have faith, and I have comfort that Jesus is with me as I struggle through the pain, but it is a struggle and not something I expect Jesus to magically fix me of.
That is much of the reason why your arguments here push the wrong buttons. In many of our lives, God has chosen to let us hurt and struggle through this and hearing people like you tell us “just believe and all will be made right because it worked for my friend Sally” is the same sort of emotional abuse we’ve experienced for years.
Do you go up to someone who is missing a leg and say that, if they just received the gospel that God would grow it back for them?
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KAS, “As an addendum to the post above, there is a direct connection between unrighteous speech (or other disobedience to NT instruction) and loss of fellowship with God, in particular manifested unanswered prayer.”
Yup, that’s the god I grew up with – the god who I could selflessly serve for decades, obeying everything, and then, one screwup and wham, he turns his back on my, my kids die and the ground opens up and swallows me. A god that is looking for reasons to make my life a living hell not because I’m lost, but because I’m one of his.
I agree that God does send bad things in our lives that are meant to turn us back to him when we are walking away or putting other things before him, but I don’t think of him as Sister Mary walking around with the ruler at the ready to slap our hands whenever we do anything to break the cosmic peace. I learned that the hard way as a parent. Smacking my kids’ wrists, proverbially, kept the ‘peace’ but turned their hearts away from me, not towards me. Do you expect anything different from God?
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Daisy, “but you sound as though you went through much more severe treatment from your father than I did with mine.”
I really don’t know how to compare. My counselor wasn’t interested in saying my perspective was right or wrong, and anyone who was witness thinks I’m overreacting, but my experience and research say that I have pretty significant scars. The constant theme was worthlessness. So, much of it was simply being ignored and neglected, but when there were interactions, they were rarely positive.
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KAS, I can’t give you a full response right now. I stayed up waaaaay too late a few nights ago to answer you, and I’m still feeling the effects. I need to get more sleep tonight. This comment is just so you know I’m listening, and I hope to answer you more fully later.
It was indeed awfully hard for me to see it, KAS. And based on Dash’s response to you back then, apparently he didn’t see it either. I wonder why?
If you “don’t want to judge”, then stop talking about Dash’s and CH’s behaviour in terms of “sin”. That’s the word they’ve heard from abusive personalities for years, making them feel guilty or inferior for every single natural thought and feeling. More of it will not help them now.
No, never. Why do you ask?
No, and what is this story? Are you blaming an abused woman for running away from a dangerous man? Maybe the reason for her “normal, stable and blessed family life” is that the second man she married was decent, supportive and loving, and had nothing to do with supernatural action on Jesus’ part.
I’m starting to wonder if you even remember what this thread is supposed to be about, KAS.
That’s all for now. More later.
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Seconded. A good man is better than a bad one and shocker, your chances of happiness with him are much higher!
Wasn’t it formerly a truism that you can’t fix a man? Why does so much of Christianity seem to be fixated on this idea that you can?
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Someone above quoted KAS:
Off the top of my head, I cannot recall any portion of the Bible saying the “unrighteous speech” (or other types of sin) causes unanswered prayer.
For unanswered prayer, see: the book of Job in the Bible and John, 9:1–12.
The Bible only says wrong motives come into play, and in one book, it says that a man who mistreats his wife may have his prayers hindered, but there’s nothing else in there about God not answering a prayer due to the person’s speech that I can recall.
My life experience also shows your view to be incorrect:
For many many years, from childhood to my early or mid 40s, I was a “goody goody” Christian. I was very devout, possibly way more devout than you, KAS.
I did not cuss (use “unrighteous speech”) or anything like that.
I used to ask my potty mouth sister to please watch her language around me, as a matter of fact.
If God was not answering my prayers, it sure was not due to my speech or behavior.
I’ve noticed a pattern in your posts to this blog in months past that you are heavily vested in outward behavior. You place a lot of emphasis on rule following and appearing “godly” and think everyone should be that way.
While the Bible does seem to teach one can or should expect a self professing Christian to act a certain way, it also warns about this obsession with rule following, or being concerned with only “outward appearances” of behavior.
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KAS, I’m trying to figure out how to distill what you’re saying here. I feel like what you are pointing to is a concept of “worth”, and then saying that God does good or bad things based on that worth.
Unfortunately, that worth is based on all sorts of artificial checkboxes. For example, you just brought up “unwholesome speech”. Isaiah was confronted with his unwholesome speech when he was taken into God’s throne room in a vision. However, the experience proceeded Isaiah’s confession. So, Isaiah, in a sense, checked the “clean speech” box only after confronted with the holiness of God and being forgiven for it.
Then, we have Jesus. When I really take a step back and consider who Jesus hung out with – the sinners – it wasn’t amazing, awesome people who just happened to be on the wrong side of the religious leaders. It was the kind of person you might find on the street in the inner city – the kind of people our own society might reject as sinners. We sanitize and ignore what the Bible says about that.
My relationship with God, like where it seems you are, was very Pharisaical. I wanted to show God my amazing exterior. My works, my accomplishments, my clean speech, my obedience to the jot and tittle of the law. Yet, I kept him at arm’s length. Somehow it wasn’t appropriate to bring him my little concerns – the mistreatment of my church, the self-inflicted relational struggling. He was the God on the throne who couldn’t be bothered with my petty little struggles, but who was completely focused on every breach in thought, word or deed.
When I finally started hearing the truth, I realized that I had very little relationship with God, despite looking and acting the part. I realized that, in my mind, God was my master, but not my father, and my response was very slave-like. I realized that my “worth” was not about slaving away to hope to win some sort of points, but in a relationship that I was already in.
So, this is now the problem with what you say. God doesn’t turn his back on me when something ‘unwholesome’ comes out of my mouth. I don’t turn my back on my child when she calls me ‘unwholesome’ things. I know that comes from a misunderstanding (or maybe not) of who I am, and I want to work in a positive way to correct that misunderstanding and to reconcile. Some of our deepest conversations started with ‘unwholesome’ talk. How much more does God want to use what we say as an opportunity to work on what is in our heart?
It’s then a process question. For example, Paul says, “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.” Does he mean that the church ought to slap my wrist whenever I’m angry, or does it instead mean that the church ought to get to the heart of that anger, understand and reconcile the root issue, so that the heart is changed. If I’m angry with spiritual abuse in the church, is that anger that ought to be just opposed without question, or should that lead to an understanding of abusive behavior, challenging abusive members, and repentance and reconciliation? What you are saying is completely external.
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“The SBC resolution on the ‘dignity and worth of women’ sounds lovely. But these words—women matter—have no purchase without a shift in theology.”
_More Than A Resolution on Women’s Dignity, We Need Action_
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KAS, here’s a bit more in response to your most recent words. I plan to say more a little later as well.
So, what are you saying? That Dash and Christianity Hurts have no right to complain or express their outrage at being beaten and raped as kids? And just because other kids might be suffering worse things half a world away? That makes no sense at all, KAS. You’re starting to sound the believers that Daisy encountered after her mother died, advising her to “just get over it” and stop seeking care, because there are starving children in Africa. None of that helped Daisy, and I find your words to Dash just as heartless (even if offered for the sake of “perspective”).
Dash and CH aren’t making comparisons — you are. You’re the one trying to offer unsolicited and pointless “perspective” to sufferers of childhood abuse, by comparing their anguish to that of Syrian refugees, or of German Christians in the USSR. If such comparisons trivialize suffering, then please stop doing it.
And for the record, KAS, I see no reason why you should feel ashamed of your own reaction to spiritual abuse. Not even when faced with other believers who seem to be holding their faith more strongly than you did. Your sufferings are your own, and anger is a perfectly natural and rational response to cruel and unreasonable treatment. I’m sure God was big enough to handle your anger, and no less the anger of anyone else here.
Personally, I’m not concerned about their “rejection of the gospel”, as you put it. My concern right now is that Julie Anne’s blog retains the purpose for which she provides it: to give victims of spiritual abuse a place to tell their stories.
In case you’ve forgotten, KAS, we’re supposed to weep with those who weep. We don’t lecture those who weep, or try to convert those who weep. And we certainly don’t threaten them that their weeping is going to offend God and leave their prayers unanswered.
That leads into my next point, but it needs to wait. Almost 3:00 a.m. here.
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KAS said,
I discuss this in more detail at my blog, but.
You were suggesting above that Jesus magically transforms or heals people.
Regardless of how you wish to phrase it, Jesus Christ did not help me.
Jesus did not “transform” me, Jesus did not heal my mother from cancer (she died), Jesus did not remove my anxiety (both generalized and social), nor did Jesus remove my low self esteem or codependency.
You know who and what did help me with most of that stuff?
Me, that’s what. Me. I had to google around, where I found different blogs and books by psychiatrists and therapists who I learned from.
Did Jesus, or prayer, or Christian people, help me deal with the grief after my mother died? Nope.
I had to get through that completely alone.
Not even my Jesus-loving, church-attending, extended family wanted to be there to support me, even though I e-mailed and phoned them asking specifically for support during the grief.
Pertinent post:
_For Most, Jesus and the Gospels Are Not the Answer for Depression, Suicide, and Other Mental Health Maladies (Part 1)_
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Someone talking to KAS (either Mark or Serving Kids):
And that post of mine is here (up thread, on this page):
_Daisy’s Post about People Making Insensitive Comments During Times of Pain_
Yes, telling me during a time of pain and hurt or grief that someone else in the world had it worse than me only makes me feel worse.
It’s a form of victim-blaming and it’s very dismissive of my pain.
It’s basically another way of telling me to, “just get over it already,” or, “suck it up buttercup.”
And I already get that sort of attitude from my father and sister in spades, that way they discount my feelings and shame me for wanting to talk about it. I don’t need this from KAS or from other people, too.
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KAS said:
This is the sort of fare that Christian TV shows (such as 700 Club) promote, and I believe it offers a distorted view of faith and reality.
Christians LOVE these sort of testimonies (paging Headless Unicorn Guy): they either love the sort of testimony that involves steamy, juicy sex stuff, such as a woman who worked as a former prostitute or stripped who “found Christ”, or,
…they like the other type of sensational, violent, action packed testimony, where a guy says he was in the mafia for 20 years but “found Jesus” and now escorts little old ladies across the street.
Many Christians, or Christian TV shows, don’t want to hear about “plain jane” testimony stories that are not exciting, dramatic, or sexy.
In the 40 or so years I’ve been watching the Christian program “700 Club” (seriously, my mother watched it when I was a kid, and I still sometimes tune in, I don’t know why),
I’ve only seen TWO (possibly three), count them TWO (- three), testimonies where the people say that Jesus did not answer their prayer, and they either still have a disease, or their sick family member died.
There was one show where a Christian married couple prayed prayed prayed for their drug addict son, but police found their dead son’s body on the play ground of a local church (the 20 something man had over-dosed).
But every other testimony I’ve ever seen on 700 Club features someone who claims that God did heal or help them with something… this miracle stuff only seems to be happening for TV people, not the majority of the rest of us.
Such Christian shows are pulling a bait and switch.
I don’t think the vast majority of people get answered prayers.
God is either ignoring their prayers, or his answer is “No,” but you seldom hear those stories on Christian shows. They prefer to feature the up-beat, happy, success stories.
Christian TV shows never or seldom want to air the stories about people who prayed for Grandma to die, but God let Granny die.
Read the book “Quitting Church” by Julia Duin. She has a chapter or so in there about people’s prayers bouncing off the ceiling, or people praying for a healing but dying anyhow.
Spend time on Christian forums for depression (as I did for a long time, years ago), and many Christians have had debilitating depression for decades, and they have begged God for a healing and have not gotten it.
My Christian friend committed suicide over ten years ago. God did not heal him of depression, or remove his suicidal impulses and thoughts.
I don’t think the vast majority of Christian who pray to God for help ever get helped.
If there is a God, he stays silent and does not act on behalf of people most of the time, which pisses me off, considering the Bible (especially the OT) is chock full of God raising the dead to life, parting the sea, etc, and telling you if you just pray, he will do whatever you ask.
At this point in my life, it looks more and more like hogwash.
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-Sorry did not mean for much of that post above to be in Bold type, I accidentally left off a closing tag-
KAS said,
Nick Vujicic was born without arms and legs.
He has said on TV that when he was a kid, he tried to kill himself by drowning himself in a tub at bath time because he didn’t want to live any longer.
Interestingly, on these same TV shows (from what I recall), Nick tells viewers to NOT get into this game of,
“Well, I have life bad, but it’s not AS BAD as Nick, I at least have arms and legs.”
Nick rightly points out that playing that game, which you, KAS, are suggesting others play, is some kind of “fix-it” for people in pain, but it’s really not. It’s not going to sustain anyone.
If it did, fashion designer Kate Spade and chef Anthony Bourdain would not have committed suicide.
If your “compare your pain to someone who has it worse” could permanently help anyone and everyone, the national suicide prevention hot line could shut down. Psychologists could retire. People would not need anti-depressants or medications for depression, PTSD, or bipolar.
That attitude of ‘compare and contrast’ may offer some inspiration for people and/or temporarily alleviate someone going through something difficult, but at the end of the day…
You’re still you dealing with your same problems, even if Nick is still arm-less and sans legs, or even if Nazi Germans killed Jews in ovens decades ago.
My mother remains dead, that is not going to change, I still had to deal with that on my own and work through it, even if you tell me you know that Susie Jones down the street has life ten times more worse than me.
Me knowing that Susie has had life more difficult than I am doesn’t erase my anxiety or other issues.
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KAS said,
So – you are suggesting that people who have been hurt in life, and/or by doctrines, Christians, churches, or pastors are somehow, what, in the wrong for it, or in a state of sin?
The older I get, I am more (not less) empathetic towards anyone who says they rejected the Christian faith (or coming close to it), because they were let down by self- professing Christians, or hurt by as such – I don’t get all judgmental.
I’m also not terribly concerned with defending the reputation of Jesus or Christianity.
Oddly enough, the more obsessed you are with trying to defend the reputation of God, or with trying to convince and argue the wounded into staying Christian, the more you are driving them away from the faith.
The Bible actually tells you what to do and not do in such cases. It tells you do not shame, judge, or give theology lessons to such people (see the book of Job), and to simply ‘weep with the one who weeps.’ Empathize with the person.
Empathizing will involve things like tell them you are sorry the church let them down or hurt them.
Don’t tell them, or imply, they are “wrong” for wanting to reject Jesus or the church or that they are wrong to come on to a blog and complain and cuss out preachers, churches, or doctrines that hurt them.
(contd. in part 2)
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Part 2 reply to KAS post
KAS said (reminder)
And who says all those doing the harm are “phony.”
I bet all the John Pipers, Mark Driscolls, and average Joe Christians out there who have hurt me, and others, would recoil and be insulted that you are suggesting they are “phonies” or “hypocrites.”
Christian gender complementarianism, (among other facets of the faith), have hurt me and frustrated me… complementarianism is one factor of a few I driven away from Christianity.
But you, KAS, have actually doubled down on complementarianism up and down this blog for months. So, are you a phony, a hypocrite? You probably think ‘no, I am a biblical, godly Christian.’
I don’t know if I agree with the “No True Christian” fallacy that Christians bring up so often.
I don’t think any and all Christians who hurt others are “phonies.” I think some (many?) are actual converts, they are genuine Christians, true believers.
And what sins do I have to repent of? None, that’s what. I accepted Christ as my Savior when I was a kid.
Your view point is so very victim-blaming. I cannot figure out why you keep posting here, or why it’s permitted.
Telling me I’m in sin for what, being upset that complementarianism screwed up my life (and trying to overcome it),? or that I have no right to be upset / angry / hurt by Christian family members who ignored me during my time of grief? – telling me I’m in sin for things like that is insensitive and insulting.
It’s not up to you to decide if people who have been hurt by Christianity or churches reject the faith or not. It’s not up to you to sit in judgment of such people and their reasons. But the fact you want to judge, especially on matters like this, is an attitude that drives some further away from the faith.
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Serving Kids said (to KAS),
Had I read all of your post before I started typing mine above, I would’ve stopped.
You put it much better than I did, more succinct.
On a blog where you might see people turn up who are hurting due to the Christian faith – or who have been hurt by Christians in the past – I don’t think it’s the time or place to scold or lecture them and analytically pick apart their theological beliefs, which is what KAS has done on here for months.
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Above in one post, I wrote-
“Christian TV shows never or seldom want to air the stories about people who prayed for Grandma to die, but God let Granny die”
I meant Granny was sick and the family wanted her to LIVE so they prayed for her but she died anyhow.
TV preacher Joel Osteen also harps on about this.
I usually find the up-beat nature of his sermons okay, but, he always goes on and on about how God answered his prayer for a bigger church building or what not, or how God healed his mom of cancer.
Then Joel will usually pause and say, “But you say to me, ‘Joel, I prayed for my mom, and she did NOT live, she died of her cancer.’ Well, I don’t know the answer for that.”
Hmm, okay, so God answers your prayers instantly and in the affirmative, but not mine. OK. Some God.
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Daisy – I only have a moment.
You complain that others having it worse doesn’t help you with your own problems, but where did I say it did? I specifically said I do not deny Westerners have their problems, including in church. I’ve had my share of them.
You are complaining about me being judgemental, when I indicated in the case of Dash I don’t want to sit in judgement, yet you are being highly critical of me, that is, judging. I also get criticism about tone policing from people who it would appear don’t like the tone of my posts!
You complain that not everybody who is prayed for gets healed, yet I specifically said this is rare.
I’m talking much more in generalities, not specifically about you, or indeed any other particular posters.
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KAS said,
“You complain that others having it worse doesn’t help you with your own problems, but where did I say it did?”
You’ve implied it.
Your generalities can be applicable to anyone who is reading this thread, that would include me.
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I don’t know how applicable this is at stopping sexism and misogyny in the church, but it can maybe help girls and women already trapped:
_The Daughters’ Great Escape_
The subheading reads:
Women raised by the Christian patriarchy are defined by complete subservience to their father, mastering homemaking skills and abstaining from college and career.
But even as the ideology gains influence on a national stage, a small minority of brave young women are defying their families and churches to live life on their own terms.
From the article:
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Dear KAS,
Many here are still thinking about and praying for your daughter. It is our hope that she is made whole again and living in the freedom and liberty our LORD Jesus, the Living Christ, spoke of…..not in bondage to the philosophies of men…..only in the knowledge of Christ, our Risen Savior.
Also, many of us here have been the recipients of you telling us point blank, exactly what we should be doing with our reactions, our problems and our life experiences, according to your precepts of Biblical understanding, primarily from a “comp” view, which is troubling to quite a few folks. For example, your view that “women are far more emotional then men” theory, which incidentally is not found in our Holy Scriptures as a sound doctrine, was discussed on another comment thread. And your rock sound belief system was given to you by your sister. I’m glad you share the same “opinion” as your sister, however, that belief system is not grounded in our Scriptures. My experience with both genders indicates otherwise. When my mother shared with my brother the possibility of me having cancer on my head and in my abdomen (both were sent in for biopsies and found to be cancer free), he is said to have “wept like a baby.” He literally cried over that fact that he may lose his sister as we were close growing up on our farm (eleven months apart…..busy mother 🙂 ) He became very emotional, whereas, the man from the Baptist church who is in “leadership,” said to me when I shared that the doctor mentioned the possibility of the lump/tumor being cancerous, “Well, it must be because of your sin.” (And I couldn’t even think of any “particular” sin in my life that would lead me to have cancer, so that wicked comment added to my pain/confusion/fear.)
That Baptist man who said those awful words to me, KAS, was my complementarian husband. There was no hug, no sympathy in his eyes, no empathy in his demeaner, absolutely nothing to show any love nor concern for me, at a time when I was shaking, crying, and so very afraid of my future. He was stone cold with a heart harder than all of the rocks I have picked out of our fields put together…….they number into the billions with ugly hands to prove it. And yet, he is a leader in “his” abusive Baptist church……caring for others (?), but not for his wife.
Complementarianism IS misogyny, there is no mistaking the two, for I live these experiences, so I know the results of misinterpreting the Holy Scriptures into a lordship relationship between men and women; it is not of our LORD Jesus Christ……but of man. I also want to add the fact that my husband’s dad passed away from cancer many years prior, so later, after I gained the courage to confront my husband over his evil comment, did I pose the question, “So, did your dad pass away from cancer due to particular sins in his life?” The response on his face was owl eyes followed by a deafening silence…..crickets. He favored his own dad over my well being…….a popular epidemic in farm country, factually speaking.
KAS, you are not a victim here, from those of us who are reasoning with you in love, and not getting emotional over the fact that you are conducting many of the very same methods to “put us in our proper place” by those who claim to know a jesus better than us as well as those who use Scriptures to continually make us feel like worms. Do complementarians/misogynists willingly and rightfully take “every thought captive making it obedient to Christ.?” We would be lying if we said, “yes.”
Truth be told KAS, following my doctor cutting out a large dark brown lump off of my forehead, my comp husband wasn’t concerned for me at all when I showed him the cut/stitches. No questions as to how I was feeling, and no compassion at all……was more concerned about getting the farm work done. And after I came home from my abdominal surgery, there were no breakfasts in bed, no helping with the bandages, no helping me lift things around the house/yard (wasn’t supposed to lift anything over five pounds), no helping me with my chores/daily responsibilities, not even a “how are you doing, honey.” Just stone cold……..a product of his parents dysfunctional complementarian relationship, I presume, with much hidden domestic abuse in their home.
So when I read of you and others defending, promoting, and offering personal insight in defending the heretical “complementarian=misogynistic” doctrines” on Julie Anne’s blog, I personally, just shake me head and offer up a prayer in hope that someone here will try and help you to understand the Scriptures from Biblical perspective, rather than man’s vain perspective. Many are trying to persuade you in love, kindness, and with a heart full of love for God, here, because we care for you and the circumstances of your family……we are bearing your burdens because we are led too, by the Holy Spirit………no hierarchal titles, offices, or personal religious importance required……..just good, ole fashioned loving thy neighbor because we love Christ first.
To define the Bible as complementarian is just plain wicked and evil…..can’t get much worse than that, as it diminishes and denies our personal freedom in Jesus, the Christ, as having the only “authority” over our lives regarding all issues of this life.
And to the testimony of Jesus, the Living Christ, He sent unchurched sheep/believers to bring meals over, send cards, call via the phone, and to love on me following my health issues in encouraging and building me back up in my faith in Him…….bearing one another’s burdens in giving me Hope.
JESUS.
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Dear Daisy
I am very sorry about your mother and sorry you went through it alone.
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Katy, your whole post was spot on, especially parts such as this:
When reading many of KAS’ posts, I am reminded of Job’s counselors from the Old Testament.
Instead of just sitting with Job, empathizing, they lectured, scolded, and victim-blamed him.
Right now, I’m writing a post for my Daisy blog about suicide.
In looking up information for the post, I have found several posts that relate to some of what you’re saying to KAS. Such as:
The following (_Source_) was written as part of a rebuttal to an awful post Christian blogger Matt Walsh wrote about actor Robin William’s suicide in 2014, where Walsh was saying that Williams ‘chose’ suicide (it came off as quite victim-blaming):
Something about KAS’ commentary reminds me of Matt Walsh.
This really detached way of standing back and analyzing people’s pain and problems, and shaming them for not responding correctly or biblically, when the more sensitive and helpful approach is to just sit and listen to people, and give them empathy and compassion.
I think people should try harder to be more ’emotionally correct’ and less concerned with being “biblically” correct when responding to hurting or angry people.
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And P.S. to Katy.
I’m so sorry about your husband. That he didn’t show care and compassion when you were sick.
My mother taught me to actually help people when and where I could, so I did. Had I known you or been a neighbor who could visit, I would’ve helped you out somehow – chores around the home, or what not.
My Mom had cancer before she died. I was one of her caretakers. I can’t imagine having a family member / spouse who shows little to no concern and won’t help you when you’re recovering.
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Daisy, “I don’t think any and all Christians who hurt others are “phonies.” I think some (many?) are actual converts, they are genuine Christians, true believers.”
I’ve struggled through this. My own parents and siblings hurt me deeply, yet I believe they were Christians. Much of my hurt came from the church, and I still believe many of those people (many of them pastors) are not willfully hurting others. I think they are, like KAS, horribly deceived by their religious systems and religious authorities, thinking that God can only bless them if they follow rigid rules and roles, despite their very cells crying out the opposite.
My comp. mom told me with a straight face that her “position” with the kids was to be essentially the whipping post. Because dad was the “authority”, he was to be unquestioned and respected, but mom was the parent who we could debate, oppose, argue with, etc. Her submission to her husband and church put her in a place where she was abused from many directions, yet she accepted that abuse because the theological system told her to do that or she was disobeying God.
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I would like to answer two points – what I mean by complementarian, and how unrighteous speech can break fellowship with God.
As to the first Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honour on the woman as the weaker sex, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered. (1 Peter 3).
Peter has first addressed wives at the beginning of the chapter, and now husbands. Living considerately (lit according to knowledge), knowing the needs of his wife and acting accordingly. Showing honour, cherishing, nourishing. What I mean by complementarian is that what Peter (and Paul) addresses to wives is meant for them and only them, and similarly for husbands. They are not interchangeable. There isn’t any more to it than that in essence. Clearly the word complementarian means something else to others, different from what I mean by the term or the way I have only ever seen it used.
Wives will be judged for how they have responded to apostolic teaching addressed to them, and husbands for how such teaching has been lived in their own lives.
Katy – I am sorry for the way your husband treated you, but you can surely see this was not in accordance with what Peter says above, nor Paul’s instructions for husbands to ‘agape’ love their wives. Agape addressed to husbands, loving wives as Christ loved the church – where is the misogyny in that?
I don’t know how many times I have quoted Peter on this subject already.
You will note that at the end of the quotation above, Peter refers to husbands’ prayers being ‘hindered’. Either they will not want to pray if they mistreat their wives, or God will not hear them. I am inclined to the latter, as Peter goes on to say:
Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.
For “He that would love life
and see good days,
let him keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from speaking guile;
let him turn away from evil and do right;
let him seek peace and pursue it.
For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil.”
The last three sentences sum this up. If you live a righteous life before God, you will enjoy fellowship with God, if you don’t then you won’t. It’s one – but not the only – reason for unanswered prayer.
If you sin as a believer, you can confess it and be cleansed from all unrighteousness, and the fellowship is restored. There is a widespread error amongst evangelicals that God condemns sin in the unbeliever, but somehow can condone it in the believer.
There are some blogs I have seen where returning ‘reviling for reviling’ is pretty well all that goes on year in, year out. Peter is very up-to-date.
I’m not denying the grace of God to believers – if God waited until we were all perfect, nothing would ever happen in our lives. I don’t believe in legalism. But he does expect us to be righteous in speech and conduct. Righteousness is the central attribute of God, and what he wants of us the most.
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@ Katy
“he is said to have “wept like a baby.” He literally cried over that fact that he may lose his sister” This is so extremely sweet.
“Complementarianism IS misogyny,” 100 percent true.
“was my complementarian husband. ”
Katy, I am so sorry. In all your post you sound like a sweet, compassionate, critical thinking, very smart person, and you deserve better. I hope you have much sweeter nicer days ahead; you deserve them. In my experience people who think and care are rare so you are very special;) Much Much LOVE!
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KAS, you shamed Dash for not talking about and responding to young childhood sexual abuse in a way you approved of.
I do not remember you saying anywhere if a wife can say no to her husband.
All you have to say is yes or no.
Can a wife say no to her husband? Yes or no.
Can a wife say no to sex with her husband? Yes or no.
Many comps will try to spin it that she can but she can’t.
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I think many people become Christians as a quick fix for being not that great of a person. Now they are a Christian, so voila. They are superior to everyone else in their mind. They have the right to trash talk and talk down to everybody else. They can be as selfish, hateful, perverted, sadistic, mean-spirited, and heartless as they want because they quote the Bible, go to church, and tell everyone they are a Christian.
In my experience, many people use the Christian label to get away with being outrageously selfish and heartless. Calling themselves Christian empowers them to get away with basically everything.
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CH KAS, you shamed Dash for not talking about and responding to young childhood sexual abuse in a way you approved of.
I tried to point Dash towards Christ, nothing more and nothing less.
I have never expected non-christians to keep to Christian standards of speech or conduct. That includes Dash. I don’t have an approved way of responding to abuse, nor did I try to shame him.
I do think Christians should be held accountable to keep Christian standards of speech and conduct. Blunt truth telling is fine, the bible itself can be a bit ‘earthy’ at times, but once the bad language starts or baseless accusations start, I personally think they have nothing worthwhile to say. This is usually the hallmark of having no argument.
Furthermore, they may actually have valid criticisms of the Pipers and MacArthurs, but who is going to listen to them if all they can basically do is rant, or simply be nasty? Certainly not the devotees of such luminaries, who, let’s face it, ought to think more critically about such celebrities at times.
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Yes, and I’m also glad you were cancer free ultimately, and have other family who know how to love you. I so appreciate your contributions here.
It’s kind of a question of can a good tree bear bad fruit vs. We all have sinned. I don’t know where the lines are. I think people can err while being well meaning, too, because of wrong teaching or ignorance. I guess that’s where I generally draw my lines, rightly or wrongly.
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KAS, the Christian standard here is to weep with those who weep. Stick to that one and I think you’ll do fine.
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Actually, KAS, you did much more than that when you first responded to him. You said, in the words you yourself cited upthread: “The real God seen in Jesus wants to give you a hope and a future, to do you good and not ill, but you won’t ever get to see this let alone experience it unless you have a change of mind and a change of heart. The God of the bible is compassionate and merciful and will one day right all the wrongs and injustice, but cannot simply let anyone off for their own wrong-doing, something true of everyone.” (emphasis mine)
I read this as a backhanded swipe at Dash’s explicit anger and rejection of Christianity. Based on his response to you, it would seem that he read it the same way.
If that’s what you meant, then who do you think you are to dictate to him what his response should be to sexual and physical abuse in God’s name? Conversely, if that’s not what you meant when you referred obliquely to Dash’s “wrong-doing”, then what did you mean?
In that same paragraph, you also seemed to imply that, as much as God wants to be good to him, that He would never ever ever ever heal, comfort or otherwise bless Dash unless he stopped saying bad things about God and became a Christian. I find that to be a heartless thing to say to someone who likely believed in Jesus in his childhood, and nonetheless suffered bitterly at the hands of those who were supposed to care for him.
This bothers me even more when I consider your constant harping on scrupulous obedience, and linking it to positive answers to prayer. I realize that such comments of yours aren’t specifically addressed to Dash or Christianity Hurts, but I’m sure they still read words of yours like these:
…and I wonder what message they’ll take away from it.
How often do you think Dash prayed for his parents to stop beating him? Or when his own mother began molesting him, how fervently might he have prayed for it to stop? Or how often do you think CH prayed to be rescued from the madhouse that she was forced to grow up in? None of those prayers were granted. So when they read your comments claiming a “direct connection between disobedience and unanswered prayer”, what image of God do you think that builds up in their minds? And what makes you imagine that it’s the kind of God they’ll want to know?
sigh So much I’ve said here, and I haven’t even started to note what’s most relevant to the topic of this thread. It’ll still have to wait for another day.
P.S. I hope you’ll take the time to answer CH’s questions this time around. They’ve been pending for a while now.
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KAS said
I don’t think a blog that seems to be a place for victims or the wounded to share their pain and anger (such as this one) is the place to “keep people accountable to Christian standards or speech.”
Not everyone who posts to this blog is a Christian, either.
Some may be ex Christians / atheists / agnostic. I don’t know how fair or realistic it is to hold Non Christians up to “Christian” standards.
I’m all for being civil to other people on blogs, but expecting Non-Christians or even wounded hurt Christians to refrain from using cuss language and stuff is rather naive, and as I said, I don’t think this is the place for your tone policing.
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KAS I honestly cannot figure out why you post to this blog.
This is not a theology debate site, nor is it an apologetics blog, to convince atheists to become Christian.
You would probably enjoy posting to something more like _CARM discussion boards_, for example.
KAS, the way you go about things, you’re really only managing to push people farther away from the faith, not towards it.
There are other forums and blogs out there expressly for Christians to defend Christianity or their favorite doctrines, and to argue with atheists.
I don’t think this is really the site for that sort of thing.
You’ve even had people tell you over a period of months now – the very people you act like you’re trying to reach – that your attitudes or comments have been more hurtful, infuriating, and insulting than helpful, and they have explained why this is so, ten times over, but you only double-down on your opinions and rhetoric.
I think you mentioned you’re NOT American? European perhaps?
Maybe this is a cultural thing, but you’re tone deaf in how you’re talking to those here and hearing them.
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And, P.S. it seems like quite often, when KAS posts to a thread, the comment box switches over from what the original post topic was, or what topics were going on in the comments, to KAS.
The comment box becomes the KAS show. All KAS all the time. It’s not a good sign. It’s something that can and does happen on other blogs as well, and it’s a red flag, IMO.
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_The Bible’s #MeToo Problem_
Snippets:
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@Daisy’s June 17, 2018@12:26 comment thread,
Thank-you, thank-you, thank-YOU for taking good care of your mother during her sickness. Daisy, this is exactly what our faith looks like in the real world for Jesus instructs us to take care of “the least of these” as unto Him. You literally and figuratively were being “Jesus” to her while her body was failing, and I am very sorry for your painful loss. You are an amazing woman of wisdom, wonder, and work.
And you would have been welcomed with open arms into my home as well! I truly wish people like you, were one of my neighbors (I’m in tears right now – very emotional as you have touched my heart so) because the Bible concept of “loving thy neighbor” is in a drought-like state here…….it’s easier for the c’hurch folks to throw money and a few Scripture verses at you, then they boast and brag in the community of their “works” to everyone as if to be praised by man……then leave the sheep lay there, alone, to deal with the healing process and the work that needs to be done, ALONE!
Please keep sharing here, Daisy, and contend and defend the least of these, here and elsewhere, in a time where Scriptures are used as platitudes to “put people in their places,” rather than what folks should be doing….rolling up our sleeves, getting our hands dirty, and polishing up our hearts for the hard tasks of developing relationships to help in the healing process of others…….which actually done in a “Jesus” Way, does actually lead people to Him without the pomp and circumstance of beating folks over the head with a particular “Scripture verse” to “fix people.”
Perhaps visible Christianity needs to be doing more “learning by doing,” rather than “stoning the Stephens.”
Love your heart Daisy……I think of you now when I see the daisies blooming in me flower beds and my soul sings with joy, because I feel loved by you. What an incredible “emotion” to have….and I feel good about meself in the process, and frankly, there is no sin in that!
Many blessings to you Daisy.
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@Christianity Hurts,
I love your heart as well….Thank-YOU for your kind words. They are needed today more than you will ever know, on this side of Heaven, and I love you for that. It amazes me every day, how the Holy Spirit moves in people like you in saying just the right words to minister to another soul who desperately needs to hear a word of encouragement…..and that is all of us at times, meself included. I see more and more why the veil was literally torn in the temple as Jesus was crucified on our behalf….no more walls, no more buildings needed, no more titled priests/lords, and no more organized religious rituals (temple/church rituals) needed to minister to Jesus’ sheep, just an old fashioned “love thy neighbor” heart.
After all you have been through, I am still amazed by your bravery and courage in trying to help others understand what false Christianity looks like as opposed to the real deal. Please keep speaking and teaching, for there is much to learn and understand from you in ministering to us.
Much love, mercy and grace to you, Christianity Hurts, as your heart is huge.
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KAS said,
(1.) You’re arguing the “No True Scotsmasn Fallacy,” only in terms of “No True Complementarian.”
(2.)As I pointed out on my blog, and earlier on this one, the Bible already teaches you to love your neighbor as yourself – you don’t need complementarianism to teach you to treat your wife well.
Complementarianism does not exist to teach husbands to love their wives, it exists to offer supposed biblical justification for male control of women (especially wives), KAS. You should find that revolting, but you are defending it.
(3.) KAS, I have pointed this out to you before, but the root of complementarianism is sexism, bad, and wrong.
The very same interpretative methods you use to understand complementarianism is the very same one that Katy’s husband was using.
The results may be different, but the sources are the same. The same appeal to the same Bible passages about wifely submission and so on
I’d say if you do not abuse your wife, KAS, it’s in spite of complementarianism, not because of it.
If you treat your wife with consideration, KAS, it’s in spite of complementarianism, not because of it.
Complementarianism does not offer a basis for loving treatment of a husband to a wife, there is no foundation for it, because at its base is an assumption that God gave all power to a man to rule over a woman.
You cannot have a truly loving, healthy relationship under a paradigm that teaches that a power differential is good, right, and God’s design.
(4.)Most complementarian marriages are egalitarian in function and complementarian in name only, which should tell you something.
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Thank you for your kind words, Katy.
And I did mean what I said above, about helping you, had I known you and lived close by when you were sick.
One of the things I found confusing and hurtful in the years after my mother’s passing was how none of the Christians I went to for emotional support wanted to be there for me.
(Some of them said they wanted to be there for me after Mom died, but when I would phone them, they’d do things like either using their answering machines to screen calls, or they’d tell white lies to get off the phone with me ASAP. And I wasn’t calling that often, maybe once every 3 – 4 months!)
When I was a kid and growing up, I used to watch my mother in action.
My mom was a very devout Christian, but she actually helped people. She would run errands for them, or clean their homes for them when they were sick or recovering from surgeries, etc.
Sometimes, my mother would do so for weeks.
When I was 15 yrs old, we had a neighbor lady across the street who had a problem pregnancy.
My mother not only babysat the lady’s two other kids for days and days (for free – and while the husband was at the hospital with the wife), but after the lady came home from the hospital and was on bed rest, my mother spent a month or more over there mopping her floors, cooking for her family, and doing other household chores.
I saw that as being a normal part of being a Christian, so as I grew up, I would actually do things for people, when and if I could.
That was what my mother role modeled for me: actually doing things for people, not just telling them you were praying for them and then never lifting a finger to do anything.
But since my Mom died, my eyes have been open, and I’ve been saddened and shocked to see how many Christians pay lip service to helping others (they think it sounds like a great idea), but so very few put their money where their mouth is, so to speak.
Sorry to get a little off topic with this post. Anyway. So few Christians actually put works to their faith, as I think the book of James in the New Testament says.
(If KAS is reading this, putting works to your faith can also pertain to showing empathy on blogs such as this one when people talk about how thus and so church or doctrine hurt them personally, instead of rushing to argue a defense of your pet doctrine(s), such as complementarianism.)
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P.S.
Katy said
Aw, how sweet. Thank you.
Daisy is not my real name, btw.
I choose “Daisy” as my screen name in part because I do like daisy flowers, but there was also a line in the romantic comedy movie “You’ve Got Mail” where the Meg Ryan character tells the Tom Hanks character that Daisies are her favorite flower, they are “the friendliest flower.”
Sometimes I’m grouchy and not very friendly, though. 🙂
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For Katy:
Around the 1.41 mark in this video:
_“Daisies Are The Friendliest Flower” – from You’ve Got Mail movie_
– (movie clip on You Tube)
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Excellent Daisy….and refreshing are you! 🙂
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KAS, ” I don’t believe in legalism. ”
“The last three sentences sum this up. If you live a righteous life before God, you will enjoy fellowship with God, if you don’t then you won’t. It’s one – but not the only – reason for unanswered prayer.”
“But he does expect us to be righteous in speech and conduct. Righteousness is the central attribute of God, and what he wants of us the most.”
KAS, this is pretty much the definition of legalism.
My heavenly father wants a relationship with me. He sent his son Jesus to die an awful death and receive wrath so that he could have that relationship. If righteousness were the “central” attribute – more important than LOVE and GRACE, then God would not have done that. In fact, MERCY is so important to God that he lets those who reject him reject him their entire lives, without receiving the immediate penalty of their actions (i.e. righteousness) because he desires to show mercy.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
I think your view of God is very narrow and very small. Your god is a petty god who wants to walk around with a ruler and smack the wrists of his people. That is not the God Jesus is talking about here. This God sends abundant blessing, not just to those who love him and follow the rules, but also to those who are enemies of his. If God is ready to abundantly bless his enemies, despite their hatred of him, then how dare you say that God is going to be stingy and withhold blessing for his own children who love him, just because they didn’t check this or that box.
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KAS, judging complementarianism is this easy.
1) What happens when the wife doesn’t submit to her husband? Abuse from the husband and church.
2) What happens when the husband doesn’t love his wife? Nothing.
If complementarianism is God’s plan for marriage, then we would expect that Christian complementarian couples are happier than their non-comp counterparts, but oddly, even John Piper acknowledges that egal marriages seem happier.
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Well. That about sums it up. They don’t even want women to divorce when their life is threatened! That’s just nuts. I don’t care what kind of crazy biblical gloss you think you’re putting on it, that’s what it comes down to. It’s wrong.
Really? Interesting. John Piper seems more truthful about some of the nonsense of comp thought, but expects you to accept it anyways.
This is where mr ‘marriage is to make you holy not happy’ comes in (gary something?). They want you to think its cool if your marriage isn’t happy. What an awful message.
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Podcast:
_The Truth About “Headship” – An Interview With Philip Payne
_
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Re:
On a related note:
_Control: The Reason The Gospel Coalition and CBMW Cannot Actually Condemn Spousal Abuse_
Yep. Complementarianism is a theological system to defend the idea of male control over women.
It’s not about teaching men to love their wives and be servant leaders and show agape love.
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Mark – I have been reading your posts, but don’t have time or inclinition to answer every point put by you and others.
Regarding your last two posts, you are confusing obedience with legalism. We are expected to do what Jesus taught in the gospels and what he said through his apostles.
I still remember the bible study, some 40 years ago now, when doing Romans 7 I finally realised we are not under law – any kind of law, including evangelical legalism (‘have you had your quiet time today’, observing Sunday as a sabbath etc etc). God has set us free from this, and is not sitting over us measuring our failures all the time. We really are under grace and live in the Spirit.
“Religion” seeks to put you back under law.
That said, what Peter said in his epistle still stands: if we fail through ‘sin, weakness and our own deliberate fault’ after conversion, God will discipline us and we lose fellowship with him. Unanswered prayer is specifically mentioned in this connection. This will continue until we put it right. We are not ‘free’ to be disobedient, and you cannot sin and get away with it.
I’ll also risk a comment on your assessment of complementarianism, so-called:
If a wife refuses to submit to her husband in a way that is sinful, she will lose blessing from Christ as the Head of the church may have chosen to give her through her husband. As her ‘head’, he is a source of blessing to her. I have heard anecdotal evidence that confirms this, it’s not just theory. (In my experience, I have never ever seen any pastor or leader try to enforce submission in anyone’s marriage. I’ve seen silly men abuse authority, but never on this issue. But then our backgrounds and experience differ. I suspect diametrically opposite.)
Likewise, as Peter says, the husband who doesn’t live considerately with his wife or honour her, or carry out Paul’s instructions in Eph 5 will lose God’s blessing in a similar way. His wife is a joint heir, both being ‘sons’ of God.
Part of me wishes ‘head’ with regard to a husband wasn’t in Eph 5. Would make life easier. I think it does have an element of authority in it, but it places responsibility onto the husband and takes it off the wife. I feel uneasy with American evangelicals of the Piper variety when they talk of ‘servant-leaders’ or a man ‘leading’ his family, but then they may be right and this is something I have not always been very good at!
The ‘head’ of every egalitarian wife who has ever lived or will live is her husband. That’s the way it is. We ought to try to deal with what that means, and what is doesn’t mean, rather than try to negate it. It can be abused, but it doesn’t have to be.
One final thought: Christian marriage will only work amongst those who have been and continue to be filled with the Spirit. Who are putting the ‘flesh’ to death. Failure to do so can lead to legalism and rules and regulations (‘casting vote’) that go beyond the text of the NT.
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“They don’t even want women to divorce when their life is threatened! ”
This promotion of women staying married to the men who beat them is one of the two big reasons I started not believing in God when I was a teenager. My family called themselves and other Christians that believed like them conservative, I never heard the comp word. My father beat my mother and said gross demeaning things about her and other women. I wanted as a little girl for my mother and me to get in the car and drive to another state where we would never have to see my father’s face or hear his vile voice again. Doug Wilson and Mark Driscoll remind me so much of my father.
Comps do not believe women and girls should have the right to never have to see their abusers again, proving they are on the abuser’s side.
I have told, and told, and told comps that what turns them on and their misogynistic fetishes very much hurts me, hurt my young mother, and hurt me as a little girl trying to combat her own sexual abuser, and they could not care less. Comp was created by misogynistic sick selfish men who coddle wife beaters and little girl rapist and that is the group they deserve to be in. They try to put a spin on their evil misogyny, but the brainwashing did not last long with me.
After growing up comp it is very hard for me to believe any Christian man loves his wife or loves his daughters. The truth is after growing up comp I do not trust Christian men at all and do not want them anywhere around me. The main four comp men I grew up with treated their wives and daughters like slaves. They talked about women the way pimps talk about women. Putrid men flock to complementarianism.
It is very demeaning to hear someone say a woman should stay married to a man who has beat or sexually abused her, there is a man who post here that said it. And said we are on the same side, no! I am on the side of abused mothers and terrorized daughters and he is on the side of men who abuse and terrorize women and their little girls. Nothing is easier for a comp man to minimize than little girl rape and wife beating. Comp men are so spoiled, arrogant, selfish, and chronically gross they do not even comprehend that wife beating and child raping is very embarrassing. They want raped children and abused wives to be embarrassed and not the abusers.
When a child hears and sees her father abusing her mother it is terrorism. Living with a wife beater, if you are not a psycho yourself, it is living in terrorism.
I should never have to see the face of the man who sexually abused me again or hear his voice again. And my mother should never have to see my father’s face again or hear his voice again. To say otherwise is heaping more horrific toxic pain on people who have already been hurt enough and coddling wife beaters and child rapist.
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@Daisy
“I think you mentioned you’re NOT American? European perhaps?
Maybe this is a cultural thing, but you’re tone deaf in how you’re talking to those here and hearing them.”
The British men I have spoken to on the internet were not at all misogynistic, rude, ignorant, or heartless. One asked another man who criticised an actress for not exposing her breast if he was fourteen and told him to shut up. KAS talks like American comp men. In my experience most western European men treat women fabulously, they know much about women and are not traumatized by them.
I do not remember Jesus ever telling a person he met who was in pain, I know another person who has had more pain than you and he is responding superior than you to it.
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CH, I guarantee that some of the same people who say that will also claim a woman is ‘causing a man to stumble’ when they wear spaghetti straps or something.
There is a clear theme here, where the woman is always somehow in the wrong, somehow responsible for evils of the men, or required to pay for those evils.
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Isn’t it convenient for misogynistic selfish men that someone wrote so many Bible verses about male headship and female submission?
And isn’t it depressing and heartbreaking for raped little girls that these men who wrote the Bible could not even put half as many bible verses condemning men who rape little girls?
It looks very much like the agenda of the Bible writers is to make sure undeserving men get their @sses kissed by women and men who rape little girls do not have to read that they are odious.
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“The ‘head’ of every egalitarian wife who has ever lived or will live is her husband. ”
How?
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The crazy thing is, there aren’t even that many. There are a handful, related to spouses, and there are corresponding verses for husbands telling them not to be jerks. Taken together with all the one another verses, instructions to love each other and not be selfish as Christians, this should lead to a mutual giving and loving relationship, in theory. But when you selectively focus on stuff and give men a pass for everything, you get the mess that is comp.
The key here seems to be taking away a woman’s ability to chose for her own life, by creating this hierarchy, where she can never make her own decisions. IT’s always husband, father, preacher. I pass strongly on that.
Of course, they don’t really know what to do with adult single women.
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“I guarantee that some of the same people who say that will also claim a woman is ‘causing a man to stumble’ when they wear spaghetti straps or something.”
And to take the blame off the man they say if a little boy gets raped it is because he is an abominable homosexual who enticed the poor gospel-centered man.
And if a little girl gets raped it is because she is a Jezebel harlot who enticed the poor godly man.
If the wife gets beat it is because she is an unsubmissive rebellious Jezebel feminist ****.
Women and children are ALWAYS to blame for the horrible things MEN do to them; never the man. More clues comp was created by abusers for abusers.
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Re:
“The ‘head’ of every egalitarian wife who has ever lived or will live is her husband.”
I’m a never-married woman past the age of 45.
I do not have a “head.” It’s not necessary. I’ve gotten thru life just fine without a “head.”
Explain to me why it’s somehow necessary for a married woman to have a male head but not an un-married woman.
If I don’t need a “head” now, and I do not, why would I suddenly need a “head” should I marry tomorrow?
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Re:
“The ‘head’ of every egalitarian wife who has ever lived or will live is her husband. ”
No. Not in the sense complementarians understand it.
A non-egalitarian Christian may say that a husband is a “source” for her, a source of love, but will not understand the word “head” to mean “authority” or “supervisor.”
_Complementarianism Male Headship Madness (part 1 of 5 parts)_
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You have a head. With a brain. That you are capable of using. As do all married women, egalitarian or ‘complementarian’.
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Re:
Why thank you. My older sister has told me more than once she doubts if I have a brain. 🙂
But seriously, I see your point. I put head in quotes for KAS, or whatever complementarian whose quote that was, to denote I was referring to the complementarian reference to male headship.
There is something very at miss with a doctrine that is meant to be true for one class of women (such as married) but is non-applicable another class (i.e., single women).
In all the years I worked at secular jobs with male co-workers, we compromised and negotiated if a difference of opinion came up. Never once did I automatically grant them “male headship” rank and cave in and defer to them, and it worked out just fine.
So, if KAS is reading this, if a secular working relationship between a man and a woman does not need a male-controlled “tie breaker vote” or a male authority figure to make it through an impasse, neither does a marriage between a man and a woman.
An widowed, divorced, or never married woman functions just fine without a male headaship, I have no idea why comps believe it necessary for a married one.
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Also for KAS to chew on.
These days in the U.S.A. (and other nations), LGBT marriages are legal.
So, you may have two women married to each other, or two men.
Which one of them in a same sex marriage is the “head”?
You can argue you disagree with LGBT or gay marriage all you like, but that’s not my point. It’s beside the point.
You have marriages where a dude is married to another dude, or a lady to a lady. Who is the “head” in those marriages?
I don’t think LGBT folk appeal to this ‘headship’ nonsense in their marriages (just a guess), and I’d further guess most of them negotiate and compromise in times of disagreement, so that they don’t appeal to a Male Headship Card to reach a resolution.
If gay marriages work okay without a “male headship” principle, why not hetero ones?
In other words, I do not think the word “head” in the New Testament in the marriage passages means what complementarians think it means, or want for it to mean (i.e., “boss,” or “authority figure.”)
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KAS, “Regarding your last two posts, you are confusing obedience with legalism.”
I think that is not the question. The question is WHY. When you say “But he does expect us to be righteous in speech and conduct. Righteousness is the central attribute of God, and what he wants of us the most.” you are creating a caricature of God that is not true.
What did Jesus mean when he said, “But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” ?
I used to ignore that, because my “righteous” caricature of God did not have any room for mercy. It was black and white. That’s what I sense when you say “Righteousness is the central attribute of God”. You are ignoring all of God’s other attributes. Yes, God is a “consuming fire”, but God is also “love”. In fact, the fruits of the Spirit are summed up in “Faith, Hope and Love” with the greatest being “Love”. Not righteousness. Remember Abraham BELIEVED (Faith) and it was credited to him as righteousness. So, how can you claim that righteousness, for example, trumps even faith?
That’s why I would say that I’m not confusing legalism with obedience. My God is primarily a God of love, who also requires righteousness. He is not a God of righteousness who also requires love, which is what I think is the root of legalism.
Personally, I am struggling to see God that way. My brain says God is a loving heavenly father, but my experience with authority figures is obedience comes first and love is withheld whenever the obedience isn’t 100%. But, again, look at Jesus. He didn’t hang out with “so-called” sinners. He hung out with real sinners. Who he didn’t hang out with were the self-righteous people who were focusing on obedience.
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Mark – righteousness and love go together. To be righteous is to be loving.
The heart of the Christian gospel is to seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness and everything else will be added. A good friend of mine pointed this out to me years ago, and its glorious simplicity has never left me. Too many Christians seek the everything else to be added, whereas what really matters is to do what’s right.
The root of all abuse is unrighteousness, leading to unloving behaviour. Loving self instead of your neighbour. There is a whole sector of the internet dedicated to exposing such iniquity, and rightly so.
One of the reasons I have been such a pain in the neck on the NT stuff on marriage, and the unrighteousness of speech some anti-abuse campaigners indulge in is because this undermines the exposure of evil. Makes it lack credibility.
It’s no good complaining about an evangelical elite who are unloving or are arrogant bullies or in other ways unrighteous in a way that is itself unrighteous. To make judgement on Piper’s views, for example, or Mahaney, only for the critics to be very public in being unwilling to be judged themselves or to blatantly display an unwillingness to obey scripture in doctrines they do not happen to like. You end up with people not willing to obey the NT criticising others who do not obey the NT.
People complaining about the abuse of authority but who would not submit to anyone on anything themselves in any shape or form. You don’t know whether to believe them.
Meanwhile, the evangelical industrial complex (as it were) continues to be supported including financially by those who ought to be thinking more critically about what they are supporting. And the whole sorry edifice gets exported round the world to do its damage in other countries, which is where I fit in. I do have an axe to grind against some aspects of American evangelicalism when they don’t keep their errors to themselves.
I don’t think, incidentally, I am actually the pharisee you think I am!
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Maybe in God. In people?
I see someone who is trying to be righteous without love as Javert…viciously hunting down Valjean because he broke the law.
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(In case anyone hasn’t seen Les Mis, here is a snippet from ‘Stars’, a song that shows his mindset:
[JAVERT]
There, out in the darkness
A fugitive running
Fallen from God, fallen from grace
God be my witness
I never shall yield
Till we come face to face
Till we come face to face
He knows his way in the dark
But mine is the way of the Lord
Those who follow the path of the righteous
Shall have their reward
And if they fall as Lucifer fell
The flame, the sword
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KAS, I’m not sure what you are trying to say.
David ate the showbread and gave it to his men. It was against the law for him to do so, but Jesus said he was innocent.
Jesus said the priests violate the Sabbath, yet are innocent.
Paul says love is the fulfillment of the law.
As Lea said, there are many, many people who choose to be righteous and lack love. In fact, that is the Christian model of parenting that I was raised on. When there was ‘sin’ in my family, my parents were obligated to punish it swiftly and severely. They felt it was sinful to “pick their battles”. Yet, our heavenly Father does not work on all of our areas of sin simultaneously. He wisely picks the areas of our life that he wants to focus on. Even Isaiah, when faced with the glory of God had this interesting experience. He recognized immense sin, but what he saw uniquely was his unclean lips. That does not mean that each person faced with the glory of God is going to see the same area of sin stripped bare. John’s vision of heaven in Revelation is a comforting vision, not a convicting vision.
So, I think the big problem that microfocusing on language and unwholesome speech here is that first, you may be at odds with God’s purpose in another’s life. We had a child whose defense mechanism for many uncomfortable situations was lying. We decided that it was not the right time to deal with the lying, however, there were a few self-righteous (but not loving, mind you) ladies in the church who decided that they were going to try and force us to deal with it. You might be in that situation – at odds with the work that God is trying to do. Second, you are making excuses for ignoring victims. If a child comes to you and says his father is beating him, but he uses “unwholesome speech” does that somehow nullify the abuse? That’s why people are reacting negatively to you here.
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KAS, “It’s no good complaining about an evangelical elite who are unloving or are arrogant bullies or in other ways unrighteous in a way that is itself unrighteous”
That’s a pretty high bar. Are you arguing that a person can do anything “perfectly”? If every action of ours is tainted by sin, then who can ever throw the first stone? Does God hear any of your prayers ever?
Do you raise the bar just high enough so that you can ignore the cries of the oppressed by convincing yourself that their cries are “unrighteous”?
I would say that, rather, God hears our cries, even when filled with unrighteousness. So, now put yourself in that place. Do you see in yourself that righteousness is not necessarily loving?
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@KAS
“People complaining about the abuse of authority but who would not submit to anyone on anything themselves in any shape or form. You don’t know whether to believe them.”
My father beat my mother and he loved female submission to men.
The man who sexually abused me had an obsession with female submission.
Child raping, child marrying, pedophile Muhammad had an obsession with female submission.
Every time I read about a man who has sex slaves he rapes and sexually tortures he has an obsession with female submission.
Comp men have an obsession with female submission. Comp men are obsessed with their self-given authority. It is perverted and abusive.
Comp men do not deserve to be the gods and kings they try to be considering they are the most selfish, sexually abusive, heartless, and ignorant of basically everything.
Just like the Taliban does not deserve to be the gods and kings they want to be considering they are the most selfish, sexually abusive, heartless, and ignorant of basically everything.
You did not show Dash a drip of love.
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KAS, “I don’t think, incidentally, I am actually the pharisee you think I am!”
As a recovering pharisee, what you are saying just screams pharisee.
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Mark quoting KAS
KAS, this is a point you’ve been harping on for months on this blog.
We get it. You like Tone Policing. You like patronizingly lecturing people to mind their language and behavior.
You like focusing on style, not substance.
You don’t think anyone should say anything critical to or about a preacher or another person unless they are super genteel about it.
One problem with that is nobody on this blog is buying it.
I for one find it annoying and have addressed this concern of yours ten times on past threads.
Secondly, most of the people who post to this blog have been hurt by Christians and have left your G-rated, goody- two- shoes Christian bubble and lifestyle. I’m impatient with it.
I am no longer holding anger in, I let it out.
That means when I come to this blog to rant about a preacher or type of doctrine that angers me, I am going to let it all hang out. I’m going to fume and cuss about it. I’m not going to be nice, genteel, or polite about it.
Many people today are “nones” and “dones” – they have left church and/or the Christian faith.
They are going to be mean, rude, and nasty when citing hurt or pain caused to them by churches or by Christians. You need to accept that and move on.
You’re not going to reach the ex-Christians and atheists by telling them to behave like goody two shoes. You’re only succeeding in annoying us (and them) and turning them further away from the faith you’re trying to promote.
Spend some time reading testimonies at _Ex Christian.net_
You’re not going to reach people like that by telling them “Be nice in how you criticize Christians!”
You need to focus on substance of what people are saying and less on HOW they say it.
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I notice that KAS continues to respond to Mark, but not to Lea, Christianity Hurts, or myself.
Mark, have you noticed that KAS rarely- to- never replies to posts by women, but he never fails to reply to you, or the other guy(s) (such as, Serving Kids)?
I pointedly asked KAS a few questions since the last time he was on here, (such as but not limited to _this post_ among others I left above), but he’s not replied to that.
He usually only responds when it’s Mark (or another male.)
Complementarians are sexist – they only take other men seriously, but they don’t think women are worth replying to.
So much for thinking “women are equal in value just not in role” crap they shovel.
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Bingo on the first part, Mark.
On the second, I do not think poorly worded or angry cries are unrighteous, necessarily, but I do think God hears the heart, and the pain, and responds to it. I don’t see a lot of tone policing by god towards people who were hurting. I don’t recall a ‘call me back when you get your bitterness under control, mara’ passage in Ruth, for instance.
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@Lea on June 18, 2018 @ 8:38 AM,
I want to thank-YOU as well for the kind words spoken in this comment thread. I am sorry I did not recognize you as I have this problem of when naming names to give thanks, I have this tendency to omit certain folks while recognizing others, to my own shame. I appreciate your kind tenderness/compassion through your words, which come from thy heart. Please forgive my omission.
I respect you here, more than you shall know.
Much love and many blessing to you, Lea!
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Since this has been pointed out a few times here and there, that patriarchal types only tend to reply seriously to men, but condescendingly or not at all to women, I have watched for it. It happens more often than one might realize otherwise. Fascinating, but makes sense.
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You are so sweet, Katy!
[I wasn’t bothered at all, no worries 😉 This thread is long.]
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Daisy, “He usually only responds when it’s Mark (or another male.)”
I was thinking of posting that KAS ignores me, so I don’t think it’s necessarily sexism. I’m guessing that KAS picks and chooses what lines of arguments to respond to, which isn’t necessarily bad in and of itself. Responding to all arguments makes comments explode.
Lea, re: Ruth. When I left my abusive church, I went to a church where the pastor started a series through Ruth. It was very healing. He talked about a God who not only can take our anger and bitterness, but a God who wants to hear us pour out our REAL selves before him and not hold back. The god I was taught as a youth was the wise king in the throne room who could only be approached with the proper formality and due reverence, and who was otherwise waiting to punish.
I grew up with a sanitized version of Ruth, where their pain and suffering, anger and bitterness were not really worthy of consideration, and all that was applicable was lessons on Jewish charity and kinsman-redeemer typology.
This “proper formality” style theology is, I think, at KAS’s disgust towards unwholesome speech – that the raw anger and bitterness towards injustice must somehow be suppressed because only rationalism can solve any of the church’s problems.
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“I notice that KAS continues to respond to Mark, but not to Lea, Christianity Hurts, or myself.”
The man who sexually abused me treated women like this. Women are to be used, demeaned, and disrespected, he, being a child rapist, deserved much respect all because he was lucky enough to be born with a penis. A big reason KAS is such a turn off to me is because he has so many of the same obsessions and talk patterns as that man.
Comp men need an ego boost because they are not good human beings and they boost themselves by degrading and demeaning women and little girls. They stand on women and little girl’s backs to boost themselves to the pedestals they have decided they deserve to be on. I have never read anything a comp man has said that made me think he loves or respects any women or little girl. They cant respect a female; they need to disrespect her to feel better about themselves.
I have (((NEVER))) seen a comp man treat a child rapist with less respect than he treated the raped child. Comp is about the worship of men. All men, even the ones who rape children are more deserving and superior to all women and little girls.
As a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, I have tried to figure out why the sex that sexually abuses children the most deserve all the power and respect, but the sex that suffers through pregnancy and birth to get every human here deserves to be treated like dirt.
All KAS post do is remind me of why I stopped believing Christianity was created by a smart, good, loving God, and was created by selfish misogynistic men. If he thinks he is making Christianity look good he is lying to himself. Comp men have to be hurting someone and making someone feel like **** to feel good. They just can’t stop getting pleasure out of hurting women and little girls. It is what they live for and the only reason they promote Christianity.
KAS has been told what he says and promotes hurts women very much, hurt a little girl trying to combat her own sexual abuse, but he is so heartless and selfish he could not care less.
In comp it is women and little girls job to hurt and go through life in misery to make comp men feel better. It is sick. And they do not want you to put the blame on them for being selfish and heartless. They want Jesus to take the blame for them.
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Mark, I can completely see that being helpful, coming from a background like you described! Looking back at that story (which I think women tend to focus on more than men, simply because it’s one of the few books about women, and because it gets sold goofily as a love story) I see things as an adult I didn’t see before. Like the part about Boaz telling his workers to not molest Ruth. What? Can we talk about that some more? Sheesh.
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This is the 605th comment on this thread and it’s a suggestion. (And one which JA wouldn’t make, for obvious reasons)
In future, IGNORE KAS’ COMMENTS.
It’s very simple and effective. I should know; it happens to me routinely. (Because, atheist). 😉
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