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I received a private message on Twitter a week or so ago from an elder at a church. He reached out to me after reading Beth Moore’s letter to Christian men. You may recall that Beth Moore, in her letter, asked men to put away misogyny and act Christ-like towards women. Here are a few key paragraphs from Beth Moore’s letter:
As a woman leader in the conservative Evangelical world, I learned early to show constant pronounced deference – not just proper respect which I was glad to show – to male leaders and, when placed in situations to serve alongside them, to do so apologetically. I issued disclaimers ad nauseam. I wore flats instead of heels when I knew I’d be serving alongside a man of shorter stature so I wouldn’t be taller than he. I’ve ridden elevators in hotels packed with fellow leaders who were serving at the same event and not been spoken to and, even more awkwardly, in the same vehicles where I was never acknowledged. I’ve been in team meetings where I was either ignored or made fun of, the latter of which I was expected to understand was all in good fun. I am a laugher. I can take jokes and make jokes. I know good fun when I’m having it and I also know when I’m being dismissed and ridiculed. I was the elephant in the room with a skirt on. I’ve been talked down to by male seminary students and held my tongue when I wanted to say, “Brother, I was getting up before dawn to pray and to pore over the Scriptures when you were still in your pull ups.”
I’m asking for your increased awareness of some of the skewed attitudes many of your sisters encounter. Many churches quick to teach submission are often slow to point out that women were also among the followers of Christ (Luke 8), that the first recorded word out of His resurrected mouth was “woman” (John 20:15) and that same woman was the first evangelist. Many churches wholly devoted to teaching the household codes are slow to also point out the numerous women with whom the Apostle Paul served and for whom he possessed obvious esteem. We are fully capable of grappling with the tension the two spectrums create and we must if we’re truly devoted to the whole counsel of God’s Word.
Finally, I’m asking that you would simply have no tolerance for misogyny and dismissiveness toward women in your spheres of influence. I’m asking for your deliberate and clearly conveyed influence toward the imitation of Christ in His attitude and actions toward women. I’m also asking for forgiveness both from my sisters and my brothers. My acquiescence and silence made me complicit in perpetuating an atmosphere in which a damaging relational dynamic has flourished. I want to be a good sister to both genders. Every paragraph in this letter is toward that goal.
The man who contacted me told me that Beth Moore’s letter was read at their elders’ meeting. He asked me how men could practically put into place what Beth Moore was talking about. Yes!!! I will include his questions and expand them with some of my own. This is the kind of conversations we need to be having in churches.
- There’s a challenge – especially with some cultures within church that the issue stops at the question of sexual immorality and understanding that there were other issues about how men and women relate – especially how male leaders relate were maybe not so easy to grasp for some. How can male leaders engage in healthy relationships with sisters in Christ? How can men uphold integrity for themselves and women in their day-to-day dealings with women both inside and outside the church?
- That whole fear culture – how do we get beyond that?Is there a way to move beyond that in a healthy way?
- How can we talk helpfully and appropriately and honestly as churches in dealing with misogyny?
photo credit: SMBCollege SMBC graduates serve as cross-cultural missionaries and ‘tent makers’ in locations around the world via photopin(license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
What a great question! I appreciate men who are asking this.
It’s a long learning curve men. You need to become more aware of how much unmerited privilege you enjoy simply because you are male. And you need to seek feedback from women and ‘woke’ men about the pervasiveness of misogyny and how it impacts women.
Some links for men to view and read:
http://www.acalltomen.org/news/2017/7/21/what-is-the-man-box
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2012/09/06/abuse-and-pastors-an-open-letter-from-a-pastor-to-pastors/
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2015/01/21/are-all-sins-equally-bad-are-all-transgressions-of-the-law-equally-heinous/
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2018/03/29/gender-dv-the-key-facts/
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2012/01/16/how-to-spot-an-abuser-who-claims-to-be-the-victim-by-jeff-crippen/
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2013/03/06/how-a-pastor-and-his-wifes-eyes-were-opened-to-abuse-a-letter-to-pastors/
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/rape-culture-is-real-spare-me-your-tears-for-toxic-masculinity-20180509-p4zecq.html
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2016/05/20/traditions-of-men-have-largely-consumed-the-evangelical-church-and-are-causing-widespread-suffering/
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2014/03/19/attitudes-that-promote-abuse-in-the-church-major-system-flush-needed/
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2018/04/30/shepherds-protect-the-flock-five-changes-pastors-need-to-make-in-addressing-abuse-in-the-church/
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This post has a photo of men sitting round a table. Men, please be aware that if you just talk to other men about this, you will not get anywhere much. You need to talk to women and ask them to give you honest feedback and tell you their honest experiences of being affected by misogyny. And be prepared for women to tell you that you, yourself, have shown or done things to women which are not right.
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Sigh. . It seems to me that if a woman has to tell a grown man to treat her as an equal, the battle’s already lost.
I am shaking my head.
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Carmen, I’m so glad you read and post here. I love your no-nonsense responses.
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Where there is a true spirit of Love, real love and concern among the people there is no need to deal with misogyny or racism for that matter. The problem often is total lack of love in churches. When ever you are seeing anyone as less than anyone else, that is good ole fashion sin.
That being said it’s a totally different thing to intentually join a denomination that doesn’t ordain women or allow women deacons and think you are going to change that by screaming misogyny every 5 seconds. The average guy in today’s world is not anymore a misogynist than the average woman is “jezebel”. I think we need to be very careful in tossing these labels around.
Beth Moore is getting a lot of push back in her ministery and it has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with doctrine. Even some “liberal minded “ mega churches have banned her stuff. When you start claiming that God gives you special messages of Devine revelation that don’t align with scripture you won’t be embraced by everyone. She is type cast now and can’t play much outside of the wackiest charismatic churches. In between foot washing she can give her latest proclamation “from God”. Pull that is your average church and you are done.
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Hi Scott1253,
Re Beth Moore’s doctrine, I’ve not read much of what she teaches but I’ve gleaned that she does have shallow and rather whacky doctrine in many areas.
But this post is not so much about Beth Moore as it is about misogyny in churches.
So let’s stick to that, eh?
It’s important to have a definition of misogyny. Like many words, it means different things to different people, and that’s one of the reasons why discussions like this often quickly bog down and become unproductive.
You might like to check out Kate Manne’s definition of misogyny. I think she is really onto something.
Kate Manne says, “There’s a tendency to define misogyny as this deep hatred in the heart, harbored by men towards girls and women. I define misogyny as social systems or environments where women face hostility and hatred because they’re women in a man’s world — a historical patriarchy.”
( Source of quote here: https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/5/16705284/metoo-weinstein-misogyny-trump-sexism )
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“ The average guy in today’s world is not anymore a misogynist than the average woman is “jezebel”. I think we need to be very careful in tossing these labels around.”
Really, Scott? You think that guys deal with the same amount of sexist behavior that women deal with?
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Thank you to the gentleman who asked this question. It’s very refreshing to have an honest discussion on this issue. While we all know that there are major changes needed in the church—-let’s start with some baby steps.
To the men reading this—here are some thoughts:
1) Always speak well of your wife. Don’t ever put her down in public. Don’t make jokes at her expense. In front of others, always speak about her strengths not her weaknesses.
2) Pastors need to focus their pulpit time on actually feeding sheep. Preach the Word. Focus your sermons on Christ. Don’t waste everyone’s time with ranting and raving about everything you don’t like. That’s not nourishing the flock. We need the Word, not a bunch of personal opinions that cut people down.
3) Preach about the wisdom of women. There’s a lot of great Bible stories of wise women doing mighty exploits. For example, when was the last time you heard a sermon on Jael? Abigail? The woman who saved the whole city in 2Samuel 20:22? The Bible spends more time talking about the wisdom of women than most pastors do!! There’s a reason the Bible keeps mentioning women’s wisdom. God wasn’t wasting time or space in the Word. We have to uproot this deeply rooted myth in the church that women are easily deceived.
4) Encourage your women’s Biblestudy to do a group study on the book Boundaries by Dr. Cloud and Dr. Townsend. Too many Christian materials have taught women to allow other people to run roughshod over their boundaries. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done for the church as a whole to understand that God’s will is for us to be strong, not weak and easily overcome. By taking care of ourselves, we can take better care of others.
5) Educate yourself on the topic of abuse. There are many great resources out there, I’m only going to recommend two in hopes that the men reading this right now will actually read at least one! So here goes:
Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bancroft
Unholy Charade by Jeff Crippen
Of course there’s a lot more to this issue than what we can fit into a blog comment and we’re trying to focus on providing an easy place to start. So I’m going to keep this short in hopes that these suggestions will actually be implemented.
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Scott – when’s the last time you – or any other man – was told, “Just don’t have sex!”, to reduce the number of abortions?
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Let’s flip Natalie’s statement.
“Don’t be indifferent. Don’t view men as projects. Don’t try to control the voices and choices of men. Learn from men. Work together with men. Respect men as equals.”
Get my drift?
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Barbara, maybe this is a better forum for the complementarian discussion. I was a “nice” complementarian. I believed it was my role as husband to sacrifice for my wife to the point of exhaustion, honestly.
However, I felt as a complementarian that men could speak for women theologically. There was no need to have women involved in the important church processes – like budgeting, facilities, leadership. I was strongly in favor of including women to the level that they could be included in our complementarian system (which many of the men around me were upset about).
It seems to me that women will never be treated equally until they get a seat at the table. Even then, like minorities, there will be decades of backlash and misogyny as we start getting past the labels and treat each other as spiritual equals.
Just to highlight some of the situations. I heard a story about a college administrator who, on short notice, scheduled a meeting with a department. The husband was a professor in the department and the wife was teaching a class during the meeting time, so the husband brought their infant to the meeting. The department chair was then told that it was not “professional” for the husband to have the child in the meeting. This happened to a MAN, yet since women often end up with the childcare role in the family, this is the same sort of ignorance that women face when male leaders schedule working dinners, early morning meetings, etc.
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“However, I felt as a complementarian that men could speak for women theologically. There was no need to have women involved in the important church processes — like budgeting, facilities, leadership.”
Hmmm. . .. condescending, much?
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Thanks for your comment, Mark. Yes, I believe women need a seat at the table.
I believe what has been defined as complementarian by the CMBW types is not at all what the Bible calls men and women to be like.
And I believe that if the juggernaut misogyny in the church is to be turned around, women certainly need a seat at the table. And men need to listen to women more. Not just ‘listen to you wife’ but listen to a whole range of women.
Theology and doctrine is really vital in my view. The vast majority of CBMW types have gone wrong on many core doctrines. ESS (the so called ‘eternal submission of the Son’). The interpretation of Genesis 3:16. Those are just two areas where they have got horribly wrong.
But the wrong turn started way before CBMW was set up. It actually began in the Puritan era.
The Puritans published the Geneva Bible some decades before the KJV came out. The Geneva Bible changed many things from the Matthew Bible. The Matthew Bible of 1537 was Tyndale’s translation of the scriptures plus the sections of the OT which Myles Coverdale translated. (Tyndale didn’t have time to translate the whole Bible because he was martyred).
I’ve found a gold mine of stuff about this subject, written by Ruth Magnusson Davis. Here is one of her posts comparing the Geneva Bible with the Matthew Bible of 1537.
https://ruthmagnussondavis.com/ruths-picks/gospel-job-matthew-bible-vs-geneva/
And you can read the New Matthew Bible on Bible Gateway. Only the NT is completed so far. Then New Matthew Bible is Ruth Magunsson Davis’s gentle updating of the Matthew Bible. She has updated the early modern English into English which we can understand today. What she has done is BRILLIANT!
Link to the New Matthew Bible:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+1&version=NMB
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Move towards only women holding any positions of power in the church. When you get there, hold there for say 500 years, then reassess.
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Perhaps this can be illustrative to the elder.
My own pastor once showed me his soul toward women. He has daughters and speaks to me as if he respects the minds and needs of women, but then regularly displays much of what is wrong with male leaders in the church without even noticing he does it.
As an example, he once stood in the pulpit with a man and praised the man’s godliness and ministry and said was proud to be his friend. The man was formerly a leader in the church, but walked out on his family years ago and was put under church discipline. To this day his own children get almost none of his time. But the man is very public about his spirituality. He constantly posts things to social media giving little spiritual lessons and brags (in a humble, spiritual way of course) about his ministry to inmates and others. He is seeing people saved and God is blessing him. But his children and now grandchildren have to ask just to be noticed. My pastor praised this man publicly while his ex wife was in the congregation. I have not ever heard my pastor praise the ex wife for any reason.
That same week my pastor called me to warn me that he is afraid I will become a “wild woman” who will endanger “God’s work” because of the years I have spent being abused, used, and ignored by my ex husband, pastors, and leaders in the church. Leaders who have tripped over themselves to “heal”, restore, and protect men who have done horrible things and have allowed those men to continue on in ministry.
On another occasion, my pastor told me that an abusive young man from the church had changed. He knew because this young man had told him about all his spiritual habits. He could tell this young man was telling him the truth. Just a few weeks before the same young man had gotten wasted at a party and had sex with a total stranger and then shunned a Christian friend who confronted him about it. When I indicated that I didn’t believe the young man had changed my pastor’s response was one of pity that I struggled to forgive.
Why do I offer these two examples specifically? Especially when they just seem to repeat what is so commonly exposed within the church. Because, my pastor honestly believes he is different from all of the rest. He believes that he sees the issues and the needs of women. He told me he would like to write on the topic of abuse and cover-up within the church, but he does not even discern how his own behavior can be repugnant and his own mind so easily misled.
And someone like me is constantly viewed with suspicion of being unforgiving and emotional or even rebellious simply because I do not have a penis. I’m viewed as the danger to “God’s work” though I have given my life to it and constantly submitted to the corrupt men around me.
I don’t think this can be fixed within conservative churches. As someone said above, the cause is lost if you have to have it explained to you.
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@Benjamin Wheeler That idea might just work.
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Just for clarification and for perhaps adding to the strangeness of my particular situation, the pastor I speak of believed my story of abuse and had someone speak to the elder board about the type of abuse I went through. He also protected a young girl from the abusive young man I mentioned. That is what I don’t understand. That is what is so confusing about it all.
Men in the church can see some, can understand some, can take action like removing a man from membership etc., but then not be able to see clearly how their behavior and assumptions are so inconsistent. After decades of watching this from the inside of church leadership and ministry circles I still can’t grasp it. It is like the penis is a magic wand.
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Carmen, I haven’t made my way through all the responses but yes. That does get to the heart of it.
The question is, when a man has learned somewhere (through society, church, friends or what have you) not to treat a woman as an equal, where does he go about correcting that – once he has truly seen it and wants to change which is a necessary first step. Listening to women who tell them their experiences is probably the first place I’d start. Just listen. Think. Ponder. I think when you absorb reality you will change.
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scott, are you saying the misogyny is built into the cake of these denominations, and thus you should just leave them to change or rot? If so I agree 😉
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If sincere men want to help remove misogyny from the church, a good first step would be to earnestly pray that the Lord would open their eyes to see the specific realities of how poorly women are treated.
Most men are entirely dismissive of women’s suffering because the inequality is so ingrained that they assume it can’t be that bad. And men lack motivation to (1) challenge other men and (2) try and change a system that benefits them greatly.
Isn’t it ironic that most churches world-wide are held together by the devotion of faithful women? If you look at most churches, it is the women who are doing most of the lowly, anonymous, hard work of service.
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I think the first place to start is to establish in one’s own mind the inherent equality of all Christians (Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11) and the fact that both male and female humans were created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27).
The next step is to obey the command to Christians to think of each other as being more important than oneself (Philippians 2:3). Very often, those with little power are admonished to be humble and respect their betters, but how often are those with greater power encouraged to regard the little people as more important than they are?
Third, stop thinking like the world. As Christ said, the hierarchy of the world is not the order of the Kingdom of Heaven. The person who is truly greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven is the one who serves others (Matthew 23:10-11). In other words, those women who serve the nursery and kitchen tea or the single women missionaries who outnumber their male counterparts by as much as seven to one are already considered greater in Jesus Christ’s Kingdom than the megachurch pastor who has thousands of adoring congregants that hang on his every word.
Finally, follow the example of the One you claim to follow, Jesus Christ, and treat women as he treated them. As author Dorothy L. Sayers said, in her essay ‘The Human-Not-Quite-Human’, the second essay in her book Are Women Human?:
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It might be nice if they got it through their heads that most of the ways they think men and women are different are either bunk, or the differences between men and women as a group are not anywhere near the differences between different men and different women.
Do you think women lie more than men?
Do you think women are ‘more easily deceived’?
Do you think women are inferior in a list of ways you have heard all of your life?
Do you, when given different versions of the same event, inherently believe a man over a woman, even without evidence or with evidence that goes against the man?
Try actually examining those beliefs. Try dumping them. Try treating people as individuals with individual strengths and weaknesses instead of as groups you can stereotype.
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Be willing to get rid of/rethink any teaching that would marginalize any “people” group based on gender, race, etc, (fill in the blank).
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Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including social exclusion, sex discrimination, hostility, androcentrism, patriarchy, male privilege, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification.
If my wife and I ever attended a church like this, we would leave immediately. If others did the same, the church would fail.
Now my wife and I did go attend a church where the Preacher was aggressively (and secretly) trying to indoctrinate the congregation exclusively (and secretly) around the perimeters of TULIP. He was a Hyper-Calvinists.
We left the church as the spiritual abuse and verbal retaliation for not embracing his methodology was unbearable. (in this case both men and women)
I researched the notes I kept, and discovered he covertly mislead the church and the church board never exposing his doctrine to the church, which was unlike any of us have ever seen. He did have a lower opinion of women who didn’t agree with him.
The church shrunk down. After he was finally interrogated and refused to disclose his Doctrine, with exception of finally having TULIP by his side, he resigned.
He seemed as if he was a junior Fred Phelps.
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@ David
Maybe Julie Anne should let you write a post about how you learned your preacher was abusive and secretive about his spiritual beliefs.
Hope your family finds a nice loving church.
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I can’t stop thinking about this topic. I have years of experience with it across multiple denominational affiliations and could probably list 100 things. But what would men be willing to do?
How about ministers stop honoring and defending and promoting the materials of the Ravi Zachariases and Andy Savages and C J Mahaneys and Mark Driscolls and Bill Gothards and Doug Phillipses and Jimmy Bakkers and Gordon MacDonalds. How about they not tolerate, defend, or honor the men who disgrace the gospel they claim to love. How about simply respecting women enough not to make men of this type our heros within the church. Men truly can do anything and still be honored. When women face this kind of inconsistency it is more than offensive.
How many wicked men have been restored to ministry through the teaching and writing of a man like Gordon MacDonald while harmed women sit quietly by and are not permitted to speak about the topic? The thought is incredible to me. We should be ashamed, but we are not.
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Christianity Hurts,
Thank you for the suggestion. We are now in a loving church.
Interestingly, to do a write, in the end I would struggle in dealing with push back responses from those that follow this site who happen to be a Hyper-Calvinist because right or wrong they tend to stick together and retaliate toward those that are critical of their unloving methodology.
Especially from heavy handed Calvinist who fail to realize they take a rather front and center elitess approach in judging a congregation,, as is any congregation.
Rather than being Christ centered, they are law and sin centered holding the congregation captive with no hope, Comparable to what the elite Pharisees were doing to the “sinner.”
I’m sure here may be many bible verses in the book of TULIP but one verse that isn’t emphasize is 1 Corinthians 13:13: “And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.”
It isn’t emphasized because that would mean they would be tickling the ears of the Congregation. But is isn’t tickling the ears because in truth, it is difficult to love an adversary, I find it hard to love a particular family member (spouses side) who used to my wife.
I try to self-examine myself, and the approach to having a loving heart, is try and avoid having a hateful retaliatory one and stop carrying those burdens and learn to forgive.
Learning to Love, is not tickling the ears, and actually I think Hyper-Calvinist struggle with it more than they think, which is why they don’t preach about it.
They are relentless about judging. I remember suggesting to one Reformed Calvinist to stop colliding with Caner. Soon after giving him that advice, Caner’s son came to the defense of his father. It became nasty and soon after Caner’s son committed suicide, The Calvinist realized too late, he went too far. But he is back at it again, but not critical of the sins of fellow Hyper-Reformed Theologians.
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David, depending on what you mean by “hyper-Calvinism” I had a pretty similar experience. However, this person was not opposed by the church for his doctrine as much as his abrasive style and divisiveness.
You might like “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”. That book and Boundaries really set me on the path away from being a Pharisee and legalist. I say that not in the definition of Reformed Calvinists for whom it means someone who is relying on works for their salvation.
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And, honestly, I did find that Reformed Calvinists have a strange mix of ear-tickling sermons combined with “challenging” you-are-the-man sermons. The ear-tickling I heard is in the form of setting up a non-Calvinist straw man and then talking against the straw man as if anyone in the seats actually believed that (e.g. antinomians who believe that they can do whatever they want with God’s approval because the Law no longer binds us). The “best” at this have developed an earnest preaching tone. So, then, they either earnestly judge all the sinners outside the body (the denomination), or they earnestly tell us that we are worthless because we don’t do X Y and Z like their godly parents, or Martin Luther or Calvin or some other full-time professional minister that we are supposed to hold ourselves up against.
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SoJ: “pray that the Lord would open their eyes”
So true. I was shocked when my wife read an article about random men whistling, telling women to smile, telling them they’re hot/pretty/whatever in a public setting. I asked her, has that ever happened to you? Her response: “all the time.”
I just had no clue how pervasive it was. I remember a few instances when I was shopping with my girls, and random men would say, “you know what causes that?” or “What were you thinking?” or even “girls… you have your work cut out for you” – exactly what they need to hear, right? But, up until now, I didn’t connect that with the general anti-women culture, and I’ve never heard anything said to my wife other than the same sorts of comments about our kids.
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Mark,
I have had this discussion with leaders in the SBC. They know its a problem.
I’m sure you are aware there are preachers that Arminians, Calvinist and everything in between, within the SBC.
So within the SBC we have a salad of doctrines floating from one church to the next and the Congregations are dealing with philosophical differences and doctrines of these preachers that may stay in a church 5 years move on only to be filled in with a preacher with a different doctrine.
One leader I talked with is a 1 or 2 Point Calvinist and he proclaimed to me there are many variances within the Calvinist School. Some being very harsh.and some of whom will purposely keep their doctrine a mystery.
Maybe you haven’t experience that, but I have and so have many others. (referred as stealth or covert Calvinist some being YRR)
If you back them in a corner to try and understand their heavy handed methodology and doctrine, they simply call it “Truth” and if you go further to get the “Truth” out of them, they will retaliate very hard.and still not disclose, leaving the Congregation clueless.
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Yes.
We were talking in my friend group about harassment at work, and one friend had had to leave two jobs because of it. I don’t think some men believe women at all about these things.
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I have a practical suggestion: Invite your wives to your elder meetings. Not just once, but regularly. Listen to their input on the whole variety of issues that are on your agenda. You don’t have to call them “elders”… but since probably half of your congregation is female it’s only right to let them participate in the discussions.
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I love that idea, Mary!
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“He told me he would like to write on the topic of abuse and cover-up within the church, but he does not even discern how his own behavior can be repugnant and his own mind so easily misled.”
THIS ^ Over and over again ^
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Mary – here’s a better idea. Join a church where there are female elders. I was an Elder for years, my sister-in-law was the Clerk of Session and women were on every Board in the church. Of course, we also had female ministers over the years. There is not one reason that women should not be given the same responsibilities as the men of the church. They are every bit as capable and responsible.
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I could probably write 589 pages to answer this question,
But for now, all I’ll say is…
Dump Gender Complementarianism. Get rid of it.
Be willing to consider that the complementarian interpretation of the Bible is the wrong one…
Be willing to consider that you choose to keep filtering the Bible through the “male headship/ man is the authority / man is the boss” lens because you’re reading your own personal preferences and secular cultural conditioning into the text.
Be willing to admit that you, as a complementarian, are not “being biblical,” you’re coming to the text with certain presuppositions which colors how you are viewing the text. Admit to that and try to overcome it.
Dump Gender Complementarianism and all it entails:
Stop telling women (and men) that submission in a marriage is uni-lateral female-to-male,
-stop teaching that divorce is never allowed (stop telling women they must remain married to an abusive husband),
-stop believing and teaching that women are more easily deceived,
-that women cannot have equal say-so within marriages,
-that women cannot lead or teach men men,
-that they can never be alone with a man and must be treated like a sexual temptress
Get rid of Gender Complementarianism.
Gender comp has not done anything to fix culture or marriages. It’s actually created some of the problems complementarians complain about, such as, but not limited to, so-called “gender confusion” (which I can explain some other day but don’t care to get into here and now).
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Mark said,
And it starts when we are very young, even little girls.
Grown men (sometimes older guys with white hair) we don’t know will comment to us (or to our mothers when we are in ear shot) when we are 5, 6, 7 years old, on some facet of our physical appearance.
We’re seldom noticed or complimented on our brains, sense of humor, hobbies – it almost always comes down to how pretty we are, or how we are dressed.
For years, I had clinical depression, beginning when I was around age 11. During my teen years, boys I did not even know at the various schools I attended (we moved a lot when I was a kid and teen) would tell me to “smile.”
Girls and women are always expected to be cheery and smiley happy to and for men. I don’t know why.
I’m a woman. I’ve never in my life said to a boy or man who looked sad, dejected, or depressed, “Smile!” When I see a guy who is frowning, I assume maybe he’s tired, having a bad day, is depressed, so I don’t demand he smile for me or act cheery.
Telling a girl who has depression to “smile” is kind of cruel.
In college, I had guys lean out of their car windows to shout stuff at me as I walked down the campus sidewalks. It’s always creepy – I don’t know these guys or if they’re going to jump out of the car and drag me down an alley and rape me.
I don’t think the average guy has concerns like this.
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scott1253 said,
I disagree a bit. Some men, even the nice ones in churches, hold sexist views of women.
They may view women as delicate little snowflakes who need protection. Some put women up on pedestals, which does not allow women to be real, to have flaws, to be fully human.
You have many Christian men who believe in complementarianism or patriarchy who think it’s kind, good, and loving to limit women, to only allow men to be in charge.
They think God created women to be weaker, dumber than men, so men need to be in charge of women for women’s own good, safety, and protection.
And some of the very same men who believe this stuff, such as pastors Doug Wilson, Mark Driscoll, and Doug Phillips, either spout off some very sexist stuff about women, they marry known pedophiles to Christian women, or, they molest their female teen-aged nannies.
Some men, even well-meaning Christian ones, are unaware of their sexist attitudes.
Have you ever Googled for the phrase “Benevolent Sexism,” “Emotional Labor,” or “Unconscious Bias” before?
Please research those phrases if you have not. And take a look at some of the articles you find in the searches.
My post on my blog has some examples of what I mean:
_On Men Not Believing Women and Being Blind to the Sexism and Harassment Women Often Endure_
Complementarian Christian men think that Complementarianism is good for women, that it’s protective and respectful of women, but it’s really not – I kind of get into that in one post on my blog, where I explain how Complementarianism is Codependency for women.
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Carmen said,
This reminds me. You guys have to check out the Facebook group or Twitter account “The Man Who Has It All.” 🙂
_“Man Who Has It All” Parody Gender Equality Twitter Account Has Hit A Nerve_
The Man Who Has It All’s speciality is to take gender stereotypes and flip them around, to make men the target of the stereotypes one sees against women. It’s usually pretty funny.
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Ilene said,
I know. It’s incredibly frustrating.
Another frustrating thing for me are the WOMEN – including women complementarians, or conservative NON-conservative women who remain blind to just how pervasive sexism is, even in American culture.
(I say this as a moderate conservative, by the way. I’m not a liberal person.)
My fellow conservatives like to keep pointing out to how much worse women in Islamic cultures have things, but women having things more difficult in Iran or Saudi Arabia or where ever does not negate that we have sexism in the United States as well (and in other nations).
In western cultures that are not predominantly Muslim, the sexism ranges from mild to severe.
We have a lot of domestic violence in the U.S.A. Women in the USA and other Western nations are being groped or cat-called in public (which can be scary if one doesn’t know if the man doing this is going to rape you as well), women are pressured to have sex with employers or else be fired (their wages, livelihoods are threatened), etc.
Yes, Islam has issues with sexism and violence against women, but it also is an issue in non-Islamic nations and cultures.
However, I sometimes see American women who claim to be supportive of feminism (oddly enough) turn around in blog posts, TV news show appearances, etc, say that sexism does not exist, or that feminists are making sexism up, or are exaggerating.
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Correction to what I wrote above:
“or conservative NON-conservative women who remain blind to just how pervasive sexism is, even in American culture.”
That should read,
“or conservative NON-complementarian women who remain blind to just how pervasive sexism is, even in American culture.”
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Song of Joy said,
Yes, yes, excellent points.
I finished re-reading Bancroft’s book about domestic violence a week or more ago, and as he gets into in the last third of the book, men in many cultures (United States included) get hit with these messages from every where that they are entitled to have whatever they want from women, that women’s needs do not matter, etc
And men get these messages as they are growing up, they marinate in these skewed, unhealthy, sexist messages, from movies, TV shows, comics, video games, magazines, the internet, religious speakers…
The sexism is everywhere, and it tells men from the time they are boys that these warped attitudes of girls and women is all normal, good, and that they are entitled to women on their terms.
By the way, the recent series of articles on the Incel (Involuntary Celibate) movement also gets into some of these subjects.
Some of these incel guys hang out on Reddit and 4chan, and they think that rape should be legal, etc.
These Incels are deeply entitled with very sexist views of women. They are angry because they feel they are owed or deserved a girlfriend (and a very attractive one at that), but because they cannot get a girlfriend and no sex, they are enraged. Some of them have been moved to murder women – one of these incel guys recently mowed down a group of people with a truck (I think this was in Canada?)
I think you’d have to use whatever tactics to reach these Incels and deprogram their sexist thinking as you would with some of the more severe complementarian Christian men, because I really don’t see a big difference between the roots of Incel attitudes and that of some of the harsher complementarians.
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Lea said,
Really. It should not have to take 50+ women saying they were assaulted or raped by Bill Cosby (or whatever man) before they are believed!
My other pet peeve: the anti-feminist women all over Twitter and blogs screaming and moaning about “but what about false accusations” during the height of the MeToo movement.
The MeToo hash trend started around October 2017, and not only did I not read about a single false accusation against a man….
But some MEN used “MeToo” to say it gave them the courage to speak up about abuse THEY received from other men, and one guy said he was sexually harassed by a woman boss, and Me Too helped him go public with that!!
_Why Men Don’t Listen to Women_
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Barbara Roberts said,
Yes. I second, third, and fourth this 934,435 times over.
There are some men who seem to grasp some aspects of sexism but are totally blind to it in other ways, or who also participate in sexist behaviors and attitudes themselves.
I wonder if this situation is a little akin to what Bancroft was discussing in his book about domestic abuse. He counsels abusive men, usually in group sessions.
He was saying in his book how one abusive man can easily point to another abusive man’s behavior during group therapy and say,
“Hey, you kicking your wife and slapping her is abuse,” but remain blind to the fact that him punching his own wife is also abusive.
These sexist or abusive guys don’t consider THEIR negative habits, attitudes, or abusive behavior towards women bad – they will even justify it, Bancroft explained – but they notice it in OTHER MEN, and they will call it out in OTHER MEN.
It’s so hypocritical, obtuse, and ignorant.
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Carmen: MAY 16, 2018 @ 8:01 PM Mary – here’s a better idea. Join a church where there are female elders.
Carmen, I have no problem with your suggestion. However, the question was asked by an elder in a traditional church so I was trying to give him an idea that might work in his setting & be a step in the right direction.
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Mary, I agree with you both!
I will also say, don’t just listen to wives, your own or the elders. They are in a specific position in church.
Listen to single women, widows, mothers and daughters. They have a different perspective than an elders wife too. Be as diverse as possible in who you hear if you want to make good decisions.
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The man who has it all is pretty funny! I agree, Daisy.
I remember being catcalled by a group of men at 13. It was scary and my older wiser, world weary 15 year old friend told me what to do (which was ignore them).
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@Daisy:
Probably because it’s the only way they could get any…
Incidentally, the big “Legalize Rape” guy on Social Media (where he was a giant) got tracked down. And was found to be around Thirty and living in his Mommy’s basement. No info as to whether he was employed or not.
Correct about the truck mowdown for revenge in Canada. In this case, he was following in the Incel Revenge footsteps of the Santa Barbara Shooter, who after his temper tantrum with a body count left a Social Media legacy of a 100+ page “Manifesto” and hundreds to thousands of Selfies, Selfies, Selfies, Selfies, and Selfies.
Thing is, I fit the textbook definition of an InCel.
The difference?
I GOT MYSELF A LIFE.
A LIFE THAT DOESN’T DEPEND ON WOMEN THROWING THEMSELVES ON ME OR ELSE!
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Stop letting women who have no compassion or serious interest in bible and faith, to “rule” the place and that usually gets rid of the men too. It seems if there is one bad apple (a Jezabel)…..there is an Ahab around the corner. Many people are leaving the “institutional church” and seeking other routes to spiritual growth in life……. if it means 4 or 5 getting together for a bible study with no paid pastor, then that is better than continuing to shovel another woman’s/man’s trash……
Women who are students of the word, have little regrets for her activity in bible study and reflection. It is the men who also study the word and keep out the criminals (mainly sexual impurity problems like Nassar and Weinstein) that allows the Holy life to bear good fruit.
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HUG, an INCEL appears to be one who signs on to a particularly crazy bit of ideology regarding women. If you meet the ‘definition’ but aren’t on board with all that, you are not an incel really. You are just a person, virgin, late bloomer, in a dry spell, or what have you. FWIW.
I have been reading this stuff on reddit about incels and it is pretty crazy. They seem to think that women are throwing themselves at every half decent man offering sex, which is lunacy, and that if they aren’t getting that they shouldn’t even try. That’s my read.
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Is anongen saying that the way men can reduce misogyny in the church is to blame women for it, and stop letting them ‘rule’ (which they really really aren’t in most of these churches)? I’m pretty sure that is the opposite of the answer…
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Lea,
As father of 2 two daughters, never wanting them to endure “blame” if it arises, I have to ask “why” are women entering into relationships where their husbands are involved in misogyny? How can we open the eyes of our daughters from going into such a thing.
I hate using the term “stop” them from doing this, because that would mean forcing them and they do have the ability to make decisions on their own.
Sometimes knowing “why” this is happening is the key to ending it. A lot of it I’m sure for those that raise their kids in a church, is to expose to them an understanding of what different church denominations actually practice with very aggressive methodologies.
To me, if it already happened ,it is too late even if the abuser is thrown into jail and victims receive millions of dollars in settlements like Michigan State payed out, because the damage shouldn’t have happened in the first place.
Now with young lovers is becomes difficult when they are blinded with infatuation, attraction and have been intimate either before or after their wedding as it is clouding their minds and camouflage it with love.
Kind of like school shootings and street violence. It is happening with greater frequency than before. One might blame guns, but guns have always been around and criminals will always have access.
My thought for schools and even churches as to why this is happening and why we aren’t doing anything about it? One reason is we live in a society that doesn’t embrace good citizenship and enforce laws. Also School Boards are leery of not addressing and not punishing mental and physical bullying at a very young age all the way through High School. I know of instances that some of trouble makers have parents of influence even within School Boards or nepotism.
My daughter was bullied in a church and in the classroom, because of the color or her hair, her beauty and that she was a bit of a free spirit.
Kids are mean and the ones who are being bullied are afraid to report it even to their parents for fear of further retaliation. I know my daughter has told me, she wished she could’ve told us, because she knows we would’ve confronted it.
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Actually the same question can be asked, why do sons enter into a relationship where misogyny exists’ in the girl’s background.
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David, misogyny is all around us. (involved in is an odd turn of phrase, btw). It is often the air we breath. Especially in churches that emphasize ‘gender roles’ and ‘leadership of men’ and all that. Girls are raised with this stuff from childhood and it takes time sometimes to see that it is wrong. That is one thing.
Another is that many such men are liars, and they successfully hide the worst parts of themselves, sometimes until marriage. I have read many stories of abusive husbands who turned on a wedding night. For less obvious attitudes, it will likely take longer for you to see. If you tell women they have no way out of marriage, which many in the Christian community do, you are telling them they are stuck.
You cannot just tell women to avoid misogynists! We have to deal with men and society at large.
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anongrace said,
It sounds a bit as though you are blaming women (or some women) for sexism against women by men? That doesn’t make any sense.
anongrace said,
Sometimes, though, the men are covering up for the men who are sexual harassers, even “Christian” men.
Sometimes the Christian men are the ones who are sexually assaulting the women in their churches, or else, writing blog posts that offer foundation or justification for this behavior (see Doug Wilson).
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It certainly wasn’t men who were responsible for getting rid of Nassar.
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David said,
As far as girls raised in Christian homes who are dragged to churches that teach complementarianism are concerned, they are taught that it’s normal and biblical to lack boundaries, be passive, and to defer to men (especially to a spouse if they are married).
-And those are some of the VERY traits that some abusive men look for in wives or girlfriends!!!
Consequently, due to their upbringing and Christian sermons they hear repeatedly, Christian girls are conditioned to think being abused, controlled, or mistreated by a husband is NORMAL and is “God’s design for women and marriage.”
I wrote more about this sort of thing in a post or two on my Daisy blog such as:
_Christian Gender Complementarianism is Christian-Endorsed Codependency for Women (And That’s Not A Good Thing)_
Girls from secular, Non-Christian homes may end up with sexist, abusive men as husbands because they were also taught in child-hood that their needs and feelings do not matter.
They may have been physically, verbally, or sexually abused when they were children and received the message that receiving love always also involves being abused. Being abused feels bad and wrong, but they’re conditioned to think it’s normal and part of being loved by a person.
(end of part 1, continued in part 2)
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Daisy….
What I am trying to say is that the “Jezabels” are covering up the “sins” of their husband (or idolized men)…..per say. They (the women) are REMOVING the GODLY men from positions in the church body. The ones who DO report when sexual impurity is occurring.
I wish I could make that clear enough as there are many “deceptive ideas” and “voices” these days clouding up the TRUTH of the scripture and what it should be used for in cases like misogyny.
So first make sure to confront the “Jezabels” of the church body. They are often self-seeking and self-serving in one way or another. Like “The Transformed Wife” is a good example because she has such poor exegesis of the scripture and is NOT a student of “the bible” but a student of “vain men’s philosophy”…..
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(Part 2)
David said,
If you have daughters, consider getting them the following books, and ask them to read them-
(Some of the books below, by the way, are by Christian authors, some are not – a book does NOT have to be by a Christian author to contain truth or helpful information!):
Educate your daughters to disregard or ignore Christian Gender Complementarianism.
Complementarianism is not biblical or godly, and it actually teaches girls (and women) to be more vulnerable to accepting and tolerating abuse and to attracting abusive or manipulative people into their lives.
What Lea said above is true – some abusive men do not turn abusive until some stage in a relationship (usually the wedding day), so the woman will not realize she’s with an abuser until she’s far into the relationship.
Up until that stage, the abusive man will appear nice, kind, and charming.
However, some abusive men DO give off “red flags” girls and women can look for in the early stages of the relationship or dating cycle.
There are blog posts and books which give advice to women on what qualities are warning signs to look for in an abusive person.
Some of those tips are out-lined in some of the books I listed above, but you can also do a Google search for that same information.
There’s another category of men (and women) to watch out for – sociopaths.
The book The Sociopath Next Door gives lists of traits to look for, so that you can avoid friending or marrying a sociopath. You do not want to be friends with, date, or marry a sociopath – they are trouble.
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anongrace said,
Oh, I think I see.
You’re describing the self professing Christian women who are aiding and abetting the sexist and / or abusive Christian men by covering up for them, and especially vis a vis supporting patriarchal Christian teaching / complementarianism.
In that case, I think you’re right.
Sometimes women keep other women trapped in abusive marriages and so on through bad teaching. They are helping the men maintain a system that oppresses all women. That is true. Mary Kassian does the same thing, but she may not be AS BAD as Lori Alexander.
I’d also toss in secular anti- feminist women such as Suzanne Venker and Christina Hoff Sommers, etc. – they do the same thing. They actually argue against equality for women by arguing against feminist claims that women are abused in marriages, on college campuses, etc.
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Lea said,
Very true.
Occasionally, some women do aid and abet men in this covering up or perpetuation of abuse and sexism (per anongrace above), but it seems a lot of men are worse at this stuff than women.
I’m really tired of the Christian men on Twitter and blogs who keep griping and kvetching about women bloggers, who they feel are just being nasty for the sake of being nasty and picking on poor, little, innocent conservative Christians or churches in general.
If it wasn’t for women bloggers and women on social media calling attention to abuse going on in churches (and its cover up by the same churches), some of these cases would not have made the light of day, and corrections would not have been made, nor apologies given.
I don’t see many men (of the conservative Christian variety especially) exposing the fraud, abuse, and corruption going on in churches – it’s largely women doing so.
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I think there are some red flags in your ideas here, that are common.
You seem madder at the women you accuse (with what data I’m not sure?) of ‘covering’ the sins of their husbands. I’m sure there are some who cover, but there are plenty who have missed them, or who are even victims of them. It is seldom easy to see which is which from the outside. The actual problem here you reference is the sins of the husband or man.
Two, you have quote marks around the word ‘sins’ for some reason.
Three, you think the problem is that women are removing godly men??? How is that the case in churches which are led almost completely or 100% by men?
Four, when is the last time we had a man reporting ‘sexual impuritys’ and being removed by these so called jezebels??? That is not at all what I see. I see a bunch of men, taking advantage of their congregations, children and wives and being supported and promoted in churches all over. I see women and victims run out of these churches. And that is for serious offenses, nothing about every day misogyny. Are you a Patterson fan who think he’s being unfairly run out of the church? Is that where this is coming from?
The world jezebel tends to only show up as a way of blaming women.
The question is what can MEN do here to confront their own and others sexist attitudes. The answer is not stop listening to women because they might be jezebels.
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Lea,
Women are NOT free from the problem of abuse of other women. There is a pattern. Just today there is a news story about a woman who stole money from her own sister, like $100,000 dollars. It could even be from “toss the bible away” types of women and run to the secular culture for advice. The root of the problem IS “sin”…..perhaps a student of the bible will list all the bible verses from Leviticus and then point out that LOVE should be in the HEART not…..HATE…. but this seems to be an ever present problem in the common “Jezabel” that has an “idol” on her mind, whether it is complimentaian beliefs or believing that “no woman is flawed.” What ever the case happens to be there IS an idol in the mind of a “Jezabel.”
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No, but there is a context to this particular thread that has nothing to do with that? So…
Do you have any solutions that involve things men could do to improve? Or are men blameless in your eyes? Because that is what I see.
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Lea,
Men are guilty too. It is usually WOMAN who are keeping the men in their bad patterns and behavior, but not always.
Like the Bill Cosby thing. Lots and lots of women BELIEVED he was a good man. He had EVERY women fooled for so many years. Then one, two, three and more women spewed out the TRUTH about Bill Cosby.
Women still want “the REAL Bill Cosby” back….. the guy they THINK actually existed. But he really did not exist.
So in essence get the WOMAN to see “her sin issues” and “idolatry” issues…..so she can CLEARLY admit the truth about the condition of men like “Bill Cosby”…..
Women are guilty of other woman’s abuse……if left unchecked. I could go deeper in to racial issues….. but leave that for another day.
Does this make sense now??
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HUG said,
I am puzzled by the intense anger from the Incel men.
I’m a woman who’d like to be married, but, I don’t sit around blaming all men or objectifying them all.
I sure as heck don’t fantasize about plowing a truck into a crowd of men and running them all over. I don’t blame men generally or even specifically for why I’m single.
Another mystifying thing I sometimes see from Incels and men like them:
They live in this very deluded fantasy world where women have dating and romance SO EASY and only men have problems getting dates, or problems with relationships.
Dating is NOT a breeze for women!! Sometimes women don’t get asked out on dates, or when they do get a date, the guy is pervy, weird, selfish, abusive, or whatever.
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anongrace:
So women are guilty of men’s abuses usually, and also women’s. You don’t…see any problem here?
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anongrace said,
That is true.
Sometimes women do abuse other women.
I’ve been abused by a woman boss I had, and my older sister has been emotionally abusive to me for years…
But in American culture, at least, and in Protestant and Baptist churches, men have typically held all control and power.
So the problem in many cases is with men being corrupt and abusing power – and abusing women in the process.
Some men have come to the realization that they’ve been been oblivious and blind to just how wide-spread sexism against women is, and they’re asking how to recognize sexism and how to stop it.
I think that’s what Julie Anne’s main blog post is trying to address, not that some women may be un-biblical or are problematic in some churches.
I think the abuse or exploitation of women by men (Christian and Non-Christian) is far more common than female- on- female abuse in churches.
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anongrace said,
And you post this just after I recommended to David above a list of books that he might want to get for his daughters, and I expressly said in that post,
Anongrace, sometimes the Bible does not contain all the answers.
Different Christians, even very conservative and sincere ones, often clash and disagree with each other on how to interpret and apply the Bible.
The “Bible alone” view did not help me for the many years I was trapped in clinical depression and anxiety.
The Bible – and how it’s taught and interpreted by some Christians – do things like actually keep Christians trapped in abusive marriages, depression, anxiety, etc.
I found most of the books by Christians I read – books about depression and relationship problems – to be very victim-blaming, incompetent, and their teachings contributed to keeping me stuck in the problems I had.
I found most of the books by Non-Christians to be far more concise, direct, helpful, and to- the- point in helping me with various issues (such as escaping codependency and depression) than I did the books by Christian authors I read since going back to my teen years.
Christian authors – and “biblical Counseling” (aka “nouthetic counseling”) are more concerned with “being biblical,” and keeping their view of doctrine correct, than they are in actually helping people get out of any pain or problems they’re in.
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Daisy, I read a fascinating thread earlier that basically said men use their romantic partners for all their emotional outlets. Women use friends for this. So when women and men are friends, woman treat them like friends…and men see this in the context of an emotional relationship so when it isn’t they get angry (ie, “friendzoned”). there was also something about being unable to get sad emotional, so they get angry emotional, and then feed on each other into this crazy misogyny-land where women are constantly plotting against them in some way. I’m simplifying but food for thought.
I have a boyfriend now, but yes, I agree with you. I think there is something about entitlement there.
But incels remind me a bit of the reverse of this, except they seem to have taken themselves seriously:
https://youtu.be/Lu3FE7BswYI
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Lea said,
Women are always made to blame by complementarians even when they’re not really to blame. The complementarian men (and sometimes the comp women) will find a way to twist, distort, and shift things to make a problem women’s fault.
Blaming women even for the actions and behaviors of men is one of the cornerstones of Complementarianism and even a lot of secular sexism. 🙂 What would they ever do without it?
Even anti-feminist women (such as Suzanne Venker and Christina Hoff Sommers) do this. They are always releasing books or going on interviews blaming women for everything in culture, even the mistakes of men, and playing men up as being victims of women.
Re: anongrace said, “It could even be from “toss the bible away” types of women and run to the secular culture for advice.”
That may have been a veiled reference to me, I am not sure. Perhaps anongrace was saying he/she thinks I am a “Jezabel” (sic).
(Isn’t it spelled “Jezebel”?)
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Yes. I just fixed it in my responses.
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This is worth pulling out of your comments, I think.
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Daisy,
I agree with using secular resources. I also believe in comparing the things presented to the reader from the bible to “real life” situations.
“bullies” are in the secular culture. I listen to “charlie puth” and his song -Titanium-…..
I wish I could reference the bible on what “brotherly love” actually means….but that is for another day.
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anongrace said,
I would posit that this actually goes back to the programming women receive from secular and/or religious culture, which is patriarchal – so the responsibility goes back to men who call the shots.
Women are conditioned under the sexist teaching they get under Christian complementarianism to think that men abusing them is “normal.”
A lot of women who grew up in homes who were abused when they were children are going to go into adulthood assuming that on some level, some amount of mistreatment from other people is normal.
You cannot call something abuse if you don’t recognize it as abuse.
You cannot call something abuse (and fight against it, as you were asking or expecting women to do) if you’ve been taught by your church, religious faith, or family that abusive behaviors are normal, good, or godly.
I grew up in a family where there was a moderate level of verbal and emotional abuse, and shaming.
Along with that, I was taught by my parents and church that it’s normal and good for a woman to sit silently by while being mistreated. I was taught it is un-godly and selfish to stand up for myself.
It wasn’t until just a few years ago – when I got into my 40s – that I realized, after friends talked to me, and I read books on these topics – that the verbal beatings I got and the constant shaming were wrong, bad, and abusive.
Up until a few years ago, I just felt “all families act in this way, I guess it’s normal, and you’re just supposed to put up with it.”
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Daisy,
So the “idol” was believing that it is good to be mistreated by men. Or to believe that it is an example of a “godly marriage” to see a woman constantly scorned by……perhaps a mother-in-law or gossipy church members while the husband just stands on the way-side.
I believe in using the bible to discern WHAT abuse looks like…..for Jesus….which happens to man and woman today….like psalm 22 and other psalms. A person who references the bible in a conservative sort of way doesn’t always happen to ignore the “secular culture” or “secular resources”…… This belief actually CREATES a sort of mysogyny commonly found among those women who are caught in their OWN sort of “sexual impurity” and PERSONAL SELF MUTILATING mistreatment.
The most SUPPORTIVE resource I have found, for women caught in anything from abuse generating marriage, sexual impurity addictions (online trafficking), prostitution etc. is to KEEP the bible in mind from a “conservative point of view” but a look at CHRIST as the COMPLETE redeemer for woman AND man. A support group that AIDS her in recognizing her NEED for HIS everlasting love (not through the condition of fallen men) can build strength in the midst of her trials of life.
Women caught in “her own sin” if you will…….which does happen in our world today….. will attest that all mysogyny started with a “misunderstanding” of how STRONG HIS LOVE is for me…….so I don’t have to live in that “sin”…..
I hope this is making sense.
I feel like these types of ways to view the scripture actually aides in overcoming these burdens……which are brewing from “idolatry” within.
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Lea said,
Oh yeah, in the past week, ever since the Incel guy mowed down a bunch of people with a truck, there’s been a lot of stuff in the media about it, and I’ve read quit a bit.
I don’t want to derail Julie Anne’s main thread… though IMO, this Incel stuff is somewhat related to her Original Post – but anyway.
I read one article where an ex- Incel was interviewed about Incels. It was very interesting. It shed a lot of light on why the Incels act and think they way they do, but even though it gave more insight, I’m still wondering why they are the why they are.
I think they’ve created their own hell, but they are blaming externals (usually women) for their issues. Women or feminism are not their problems – they are. They need to go look in the mirror and take responsibility. They are their own worst enemies.
Also, life does not always turn out the way you wanted or hoped (this is just as true for women as it is for men), and Incels don’t want to accept this, or they aren’t old enough to have figured this out yet.
I sure thought I’d be married by now, but I’m not.
But you don’t allow your frustration, anger, disappointment, etc., to keep you stuck in on-going bitterness and hatred. Rejection and dashed dreams is a part of life.
Women get rejected too, not just men.
Incels definitely have an issue with not handling rejection well, not getting what they want, when they want it.
(end of part 1, cont’d in pt 2)
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(part 2)
Lea said,
I saw another article or two that said the Incels guys don’t even really want sex – their big issue is they want control over women, and that they don’t have it is what is setting them off.
One kind of well-intentioned yet kind of bad article I saw lately, by a male author – it was an open letter to Incel men – was to tell Incels to go to church, find a Christian woman to date, marry her, then they can have all the sex they want.
I was like, no. No, no, no.
These incel guys are very damaged, highly entitled, possibly abusive – you should not be encouraging them to pick up Christian single women to date / marry.
Also, marriage is not an entitlement or guarantee of regular sex, which is what the guy’s advice to Incels seemed to suggest. A married Christian woman has every right to say “no” to a husband if she’s not in the mood. Something tells me that Incels don’t want to hear “no” from a woman if they proposition her for sex.
Pertinent:
_The ‘Girlfriendzone’ Flips the ‘Friendzone’ Myth on its hHad_ (on the Daily Dot site)
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anon grace said,
I’m not sure I’m completely following your thought processes in some of these posts.
I’m not comfortable ascribing a word such as “idol” to a Christian woman (or any woman’s response) to abuse or bad treatment, because it seems very victim-blaming on some level.
I for one did not view abuse or abusers as idols, but from the time I was a child, I was taught by Christians that I should accept abuse and not fight it.
I was told by preachers and so forth that the Bible teaches this, that, and the other.
They were wanting me to accept their interpretation and application of Scripture, which I did for a long time, because I was a kid and didn’t know any better.
anongrace said,
I don’t understand what that part means.
It sounds to me as though you are faulting women for not being assertive, standing up for themselves and fighting their abusers (???).
anongrace said,
No offense, but that borders on offering hurting people cliches, IMO, and cliches are not always helpful to a hurting person.
I heard stuff like that during the years I had deep depression and anxiety (that Jesus loved me, etc), but it didn’t make the depression and anxiety go away.
Women need to be taught in clear terms that it’s permissible and okay for them to have boundaries, be assertive, to stand up to an abusive man – or divorce him, if she’s married to him.
(And women generally won’t hear such life lessons in churches or from Christians. Many women have been brain-washed to interpret the Bible through a complementarian mind-set that negates those concepts.)
anongrace said,
I don’t understand how a woman being abused by a husband or treated rudely by a family member can be considered a case of her “being caught in her own sin.”
She’s not really “caught in her own sin,” as far as I can tell so much as she’s being sinned against by another party.
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anongrace said,
Post Script.
Misogyny is something that some men do to women. It’s not something that women do to themselves.
Misogyny is an attitude that some men have towards women.
Misogyny is not brought about by women not realizing that Jesus loves and cares for them.
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I think this is a really strange discussion. if we as women really want to see the gospel promoted as our number one priority, wouldn’t it be better to have all male leaders than risk some not coming to hear the gospel?
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Irene said,
In a climate of “Me Too,” “ChurchToo” and “ChurchDV,” you find it strange that people, Christians especially want to find out how to curb misogyny in churches? I think it makes perfect sense.
Irene said,
So men’s feelings or men’s souls take precedence over the safety and concerns of women within the Christian community? I disagree.
A lot of women have left the Christian faith due to male- on- female harassment, abuse, and violence.
Some Christian women view Christianity as being hostile to women (with good reason), so they have become atheists, and I’ve read articles about how some of them are into New Age, Neo-Pagan, or Wiccan religions now, because they perceive these Non-Christian religions as being more friendly and respectful towards women.
Some Christians are hypocrites on this point anyway – the Southern Baptists don’t permit women leaders within churches within the U.S.A., but they allow them to teach and lead men in foreign nations, as missionaries.
Most Christian denominations -the ones that are complementarian in particular- already have “male leaders,” so I’m not totally understanding your objection.
Even though most churches are male-led, churches have been losing male (and female) member in large numbers in the last 20 or so years.
If men are not coming to churches, it’s not because women are leading (because they’re not – men are). Maybe men, like a lot of women, find church to be too judgmental or irrelevant to their lives.
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Irene,
It’s like trying to drive a car with only half the car’s parts. God is not the one trying to shut down half the spiritual gifts in the Body of Christ. The problem is that the people (both men and women) that God has gifted to do the work of the ministry—aren’t getting to do it. Meanwhile, the wolves are taking away the pulpits from those that are actually called and gifted by God to be there.
We have to start choosing pastors according to real qualifications, training, and actual gifts. Not just the best looking ones and smoothest talkers.
My gut feeling is that maybe the reason that wolves get access to too many pulpits is because they know how to say what people want to hear.
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Irene – I really am puzzled by your statement. How is it that the gospel is promoted by only having male leaders? Why is it that women can be leaders in business and government yet for some reason not in the church? Certainly women do not lack leadership capabilities, yet for some reason the gospel is compromised when a woman seeks to serve the body of Christ as a pastor.
I think a deep reading and study of I Corinthians 12-13 is in order. Nowhere in these chapters does the Spirit determine gifting based upon gender. In my opinion, the work of God is being hindered when a woman gifted with preaching, teaching, and leadership is not allowed to use her gifts.
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Irene,
There are preachers that have made a case that the woman at the well was spreading the gospel.
John 4:28-30: 28 Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah?” 30 They came out of the town and made their way toward him.
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Kathi – Why is it that women can be leaders in business and government yet for some reason not in the church?
Because the church isn’t a business. Nor a government agency. Because apostolic instruction puts a limit on women becoming pastors (but not anything else in the gifts line).
The Anglican Church has started ordaining women bishops. My sister tells me all three have a compromised faith. The only one I have read myself says she wants to introduce the concept of God as Mother to her brother bíshops. This sort of deception is the very reason Paul gives for not permitting this. Doesn’t bode well for those who argued in favour of it.
It may surprise you I occasionally attend a church with Mrs Pastor as it were to do the music. Against my better judgement I visited a church with a view to joining it with a female preacher. First week, excellent sermon. Second week, latter third of the sermon the bible was closed and she wants to introduce pseudo-Christian mysticism to the church. No point going back. You could despair at times.
I have attended a wide variety of churches (I moved around a lot), including some strong on limiting women from eldership and most inbetween on it (e.g. baptist diaconate), and I don’t think any one them could be accused of institutionalised misogyny. That doesn’t mean it never happens with individuals, but I wonder if this is an American cultural problem.
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KAS,
Did Corrie Ten Boom introduce mysticism to the church? When you think of a woman called by God to preach, think of her. God doesn’t stop calling women to minister just because some might go astray.
Does anyone complain that men shouldn’t preach the Word just because some male preachers go astray?
The real reason they won’t let women in the pulpit is because church leaders don’t want women to have paying ministry jobs. They are fine with women working for free, though.
God isn’t going to stop gifting women with spiritual gifts just because the church is too stubborn to accept it. Same way that God doesn’t stop raising up people to pastor even though some people are offended at the concept of pastoring. Same reasoning is used to try to stop both.
God doesn’t stop doing anything just because people are offended by it.
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I dont want to go too off topic, but I think their issue is that they want the women that they find attractive, who are generally speaking young and conventionally attractive, and they feel entitled to those women without forming relationships and in some cases even asking them out! Even though they will tell you that their looks are terrible (even when they aren’t), and are the sole reason they can’t get women. They are obsessed with ranking themselves and women. They expect to not have to work for relationship at all – because they think ‘chads’ ie very attractive men, don’t have to work for relationships. They just want strange women, or friends, or acquaintances or the girl who gave them coffee, to throw themselves at them and be happy with getting nothing out of it. When in reality, good relationships require both members to contribute!
They have a lot of odd views on women in general, and dating, that are factually inaccurate like thinking looks are the only thing that matters. Listen, I’ve dated very attractive men who were not very intelligent before and it doesn’t work. I would much rather date someone who is kind and intelligent and compatible.
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Oh sorry, Daisy, I meant to throw in that many incel types on reddit claim to want validation that comes with a woman being interested in them. Which is interesting. But they don’t want to have to be an active participant, they just want someone to fall at their feet and worship them, again because they think that happens to other men. And if they can’t have that, it’s over.
Someone is going to do a lot of studies on these guys.
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Of course not, Avid Reader. And every example of a deceived man is not applied to the entire sex. The confirmation bias out there is strong…
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(part 1)
Lea. (Per your MAY 18, 2018 @ 6:16 AM.)
Agreed. I think there can be more than one reason why Incels think and do what they do, I was just sharing one possibility from one article I read about it.
I also agree Incels are delusional about who they want to date. They’ve yet to realize or care that looks aren’t everything. (They should totally sit through the Jack Black movie “Shallow Hal.”)
I remember in high school having a huge crush on a very, very good-looking guy, until about 3/4 into the school year. He was in about three of my classes. I used to admire him from afar.
But then the teacher in one of our vocational courses changed the seating arrangement, and he sat next to me the last 1/4 of the school year in that one class. And do you know what happened?
I discovered that while he may be very, very cute (he was easy on the eyes!), and he was relatively kind-hearted (not mean or arrogant), he was dumb as a box of rocks.
I immediately stopped seeing him as a crush. I lost romantic interest in him. I felt kind of bad for him. He was always asking me for help in what to do in class because he didn’t understand the tasks or instructions, so I helped him. He was not too bright.
And I’m tired of men who, on a scale of 1 to 10 (with 1 being unattractive and ten being really hot), who are below five’s, shall we say, who feel they are worthy of women who are above five’s, or who are Ten’s.
(cont’d in part 2)
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Re: Lea’s post, (part 2)
By the way, I’ve seen study after study going back to the 1980s that point out that men and women don’t view themselves accurately, physically speaking.
That is, many men tend to see themselves as being hotter, better looking, and more buff than they are, while most women typically UNDER-rate themselves, and see themselves fatter or dumpier than they actually are.
Please watch this video on You Tube:
_Men: You’re Not As Beautiful As You Think You Are (Dove Ad Parody)_
As far as the Incels go, not only are some of them (many?) not physically attractive, but their attitudes and personalities are complete turn-offs.
I saw video and photos of one of the Incel guys who killed himself (a few years ago), and IMO, he was actually kind of good-looking, in his own way – his problem was not his looks but his negative and entitled attitude towards women and sex, and his impatience.
Like that old song says, “My mama says, you can’t hurry love, no you’ll just have to wait; it’s a game of give and take.”
And, btw, some Christian complementarian men have the same attitudes as these Incel guys towards women.
I see balding, tubby, unattractive 55 or older Christian men who actually think attractive women (even ones much younger) are “warm for their form,” so they practice the “Billy Graham Rule” (aka Mike Pence Rule), because these clowns actually think women want to get with them. Puh-leeze.
Many Christian men fall into the same entitled, sexist views of women, dating, attractiveness, and marriage that the Incel guys do especially the complementarian, Mark Driscoll-ian ones. And comps claim to be “counter cultural,” no, they follow the secular culture all the time.
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By Lea.
Re: “Oh sorry, Daisy, I meant to throw in that many incel types on reddit claim to want validation that comes with a woman being interested in them.”
Somewhat related: Many people-pleasers stay stuck in people pleasing because of this very thing (among other reasons). Because they live for external validation, which is random, it keeps them addicted to it. The book “The Disease to Please” by Harriet Braiker explains it quite well.
I often found external validation about my looks or sexuality from boys or men annoying, myself. When I was a younger teen, I went through my awkward phase, so the boys picked on me then.
But when I looked more conventionally attractive, they would cat-call, flirt. I did NOT want that sort of external validation but found it creepy at times, or sexist. I wanted guys to get to know me as a person and then find me attractive on the basis of my sense of humor, intelligence, or some other inner quality.
I do not think Incel guys fully realize what a drag it is, how demeaning, it is to be valued only for your looks or sex appeal. It’s objectifying and insulting. I never liked it. But then, women are exposed to different outcomes of this from men – we might be sexually assaulted or harassed on a job or elsewhere, where they only see the positive side to being appreciate for your looks.
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If a Christian man is truly interested in learning how to combat sexism in churches or anywhere else, he can turn to Google to do the research. (Also check out egalitarian books on Amazon’s book site.)
There is this concept called “Emotional Labor” that women are expected to carry out more than men, and it can be exhausting.
On the one hand, I appreciate the willingness of any man to ask women for their view points, and how to fight sexism, but on the other hand, it gets tiresome.
If you’re a man, you are capable of doing research on your own. It’s draining for me as a woman to have to explain sexism to you. You’re putting responsibility on to women, who are already being targeted by sexism, to do this work for you.
So not only are women having to live and put up with sexism, but some men are wanting us to explain it to them.
Additionally, and even more frustratingly, there are the men who are incredulous and don’t believe us, so we have to PROVE to them that yes, we do get cat-called, sexually harassed, etc.
And it can be exhausting going through all this explaining and teaching.
Here is one page from the Christian gender egalitarian blog The Junia Project, for example:
_10 Ways Men Can Fight Sexism – The Junia Project_
Here’s a title from CBE, Christians For Biblical Equality:
“How to Produce an Egalitarian Man | CBE International”
Just go to Google and start looking up phrases such as “How can men fight sexism,” “male allies to women” etc etc. Also do some research on phrases such as “Benevolent Sexism,” “Unconcious Bias,” etc
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So KAS says,
<
blockquote>Because the church isn’t a business. Nor a government agency. Because apostolic instruction puts a limit on women becoming pastors (but not anything else in the gifts line).
<
blockquote> Here we are in a thread where Julie Anne is saying a man was asking her how can churches be LESS sexist,
And KAS is here making an argument for how to keep the sexism status quo going on in churches.
Also, Junia, mentioned in the New Testament, was an Apostle. Women were apostles.
Also.
_5 Reasons to Stop Using 1 Timothy 2:12 Against Women_
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Daisy,
Hmmmm.
I don’t really agree.
When the woman was caught in adultery. Jesus said “sin no more”….. obviously the woman in adultery had a low opinion of MAN……hence the corrupted relationship.
There are cases where older women will “sleep with” teenage boys…..but people will refuse to call it “rape” because an older woman did it. It is still “rape” at varying degrees. A 14 year old boy can easily look and act like a 27 year old man. (I have the ability to become a substitute teacher in our area)
How does that mean that “woman” deserve better men when the women won’t give up on “themselves” and admit the truth about the OBVIOUS human condition of wanting to live in favor of “sin” instead of favor of the “redeemer”???? What message does that send to women who are in a bad relationship? That NASTY behavior in Men and Women is ok.
I have also heard of women who “rape” other girls or let “sexual impurity things” continue in a family or otherwise. So there isn’t a specific gender that is generating the sin problems.
The solution is to consider the REDEMPTION as a solution to the fallen nature in man and woman. Yes, that means “conservative” methods of bible study…..a messianic message or otherwise.
In essence “feminsim” doesn’t fix misogyny problems. REDEMPTION fixes misogyny problems.
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