Tullian Tchividjian,Clergy Sex Abuse, Expastors.com, Greg Atkinson, Jonathan Merritt
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ExPastors.com Opens the Gate
My last post was about the new article written by former pastor, Tullian Tchividjian – The Freedom in Losing It All – published at the site, ExPastors.com. (It isn’t clear yet from a preliminary ExPastors.com article or otherwise whether this publication came about at their invitation or at Tullian Tchividjian’s request to post.) As the day went on, I watched the comments and noted a familiar pattern: The blog moderators were not comfortable with comments questioning Tullian Tchividjian’s character or their integrity. They started removing comments, and posted an explanation that the comments were not meeting the blog’s intended purpose.
When they started implementing that, the comment total was at 121. As of this morning (September 30th), it appears that a total of 4 comments were outright deleted, and 2 comments are still “awaiting moderation,” so the comment count total is 117.
What is the purpose of ExPastors.com?
Now, obviously my blog has an intended purpose. The purpose of my blog is to expose abuse within Christian churches/organizations, and to supply a safe place for survivors of those hurt by abuse. I also have posting guidelines and will remove comments if someone is defending an abuser or if their comments make this place feel unsafe for survivors to participate.
The Victim
So, that leads me to the obvious conclusion that ExPastors.com is doing the same, but the difference here is that Tullian Tchividjian has now become the victim.
Excuse me?!?!?!!!!!!!!
Tullian Tchividjian was the perpetrator and the liar who left a trail of destruction in his wake. This celebrity pastor whose ministry collapsed because of lies and sexual sins, and now … he has reportedly turned his life around? Really????
In contributing to ExPastors.com, Tullian Tchividjian has been graced with a platform on a silver platter to share the depths of his despair, even to the point of contemplating suicide, to his large and ever-faithful following and to the regular audience there.
The Poster Boy
Tullian is a perfect poster boy for this site. What more could they want than a high-profile celebrity pastor whose tragic collapse has now been beautifully restored?
But wait … has it really? How are we to know? Are we to believe the man who publicly confessed that he had an affair only after finding out about his wife’s affair? How convenient of him to leave out that he had previously had sex with another woman who was not his wife. And how hateful for Tullian Tchividjian to blame his wife for his more recent sexual immorality. And then when Pastor Kevin Labby took him under his wing at Willow Creek Presbyterian Church in Winter Springs, Florida, Tullian Tchividjian also failed to disclose the full extent of his sexual immorality. This is not a man who has a history of telling the truth. Are we to assume that a claim of spiritual restoration means he is now telling the truth? Because he claims God has done this work, does that mean we are exempt from fact checking?
I think not.
If you aren’t convinced of the opinion that he lies, see it for yourself by reading the extensive chronology, posts, and initial analysis in this Resource Bibliography. (That resource page is due for expansion and updating soon.) Patterns of deceit, failure to be forthcoming with the truth, blame-shifting, etc., seem clear enough.
Meanwhile, it’s important to note that the goal of ExPastors.com is apparently primarily to deal with ex-pastors, not any residual fallout caused by them (i.e., any people they may have victimized), nor to verify first if ex-pastors who contribute material on their site are being truthful.
So, on Twitter, I challenged the Executive Director, Greg Atkinson, during his conversation thread with my long-time Twitter friend, Andrew, who rightly is concerned about victims. Here are screenshots of that thread:
x
x
And then I, too, was blocked.
Our exchange was … interesting, yet it aligns with their statement of What We Believe:
We believe in God. We believe in the corporate church. We believe that we all have issues. But more importantly, we believe in grace. We believe in restoration. We believe in renewed individuals fulfilling the call of God on their lives. Whether it’s serving in a pastoral or lay leadership role or as the janitor mopping floors, we believe the expastor should, once again, become reintegrated back into ministry, into a place where they are fulfilling their call.
Why do we believe this? Because we’re confident that God is not done with you yet.
Notice this important part: “[W]e believe the expastor should, once again, become reintegrated back into ministry, into a place where they are fulfilling their call.” Yikes. Imagine those harmed by Mr. Tchividjian who are now reading this.
Religion News Service/Jonathan Merritt Widens the Path
Sadly, what often happens when news of a fallen celebrity pastor makes a comeback, they are given more media attention. Sure enough, Jonathan Merritt at Religion News Service (RNS) got hold of the story and decided to extend Tchvidjian’s platform to even a larger audience. RNS posted Billy Graham’s grandson on his near suicide and whether he’s planning a comeback on September 29th.
As a sidenote, I found out later that this was not Jonathan Merritt’s first time writing about Tullian Tchividjian. He has done at least two other personal interview-type articles:
Billy Graham’s grandson takes Christians to task: An interview with Tullian Tchividjian, Religion News Service, October 2, 2013.
Billy Graham’s grandson warns of New Year’s resolutions, JonathanMerritt.com, January 2, 2015.
Back to the article posted yesterday about Billy Graham’s grandson … Good grief, my blood pressure rose as I considered the implications of this – – – scores and scores of people getting to read about their hero making a wonderful spiritual comeback – – – based on what? Just Tullian Tchividjian’s word?
So, I responded to the tweet announcing this interview article, and here’s that thread:
Yes, that’s right. It took me all of seconds to contact key people directly harmed by Tullian Tchividjian to see if he had changed, to see if he has made things right with them.
- I contacted Pastor Kevin Labby, his former pastor and boss, and he hasn’t heard from Tullian. No one from ExPastors.com has contacted him.
- I contacted Kim Tchividjian, his ex-wife. She also said no one from ExPastors.com has contacted her.
- I contacted one of the women whom Tullian Tchividjian groomed sexually and then committed clergy sexual abuse with. She said that ExPastors.com did not contact her, nor has Tullian Tchividjian made any effort yet to make things right with her. She has seen no evidence from him of repentance or sorrow for the pain he caused in her family.
So, what we have going on here is a masterful show of supposed spiritual renewal by ex-pastor Tullian Tchividjian, with no fruit evidenced toward the above people he harmed, or by other I also contacted.
This how you fact check – – – you go to the people he harmed, and you do not take just a chronic liar’s word for it. It’s called “due diligence” – – – duh!!
So, sadly, now the Tullian Tchividjian fans are coming out in droves to read their hero’s words. But ExPastors.com and Jonathan Merritt failed to do due diligence when they allowed Tullian Tchividjian to uncritically report his own narrative. Someone who is truly repentant wouldn’t be taking center stage again without making sure all of his victims were okay with it. Tullian Tchividjian’s victims don’t matter to him. They are just excess baggage that gets in his way.
Wasn’t Tchividjian masterful? He appealed to an audience who wanted to hear his side, and what a perfect setup to gain back trust from his fan base to purchase his possible upcoming book.
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Edited 09-30-2016 to clarify that it is not yet known whether the ExPastors.com article came about at the invitation of ExPastors.com or from initiation by Tullian Tchividjian.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Odds are the ‘victim’s’ Greg is talking to, if they exist, are people like Tullian’s new wife.
The goal of the expastors site by definition excludes the victims of fallout. They are incapable of a balanced approach, it seems.
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These egomaniacs are all the same. Their god is themselves and like addicts they must be like The Most High.
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Awesome work, Julie on exposing the fraud of the spiritual recovery, and how those who want to be part of a great comeback story forget that coming back means repentance and reconciliation, not having a good story!
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So basically, expastors.com is an MRA site for fallen shepherds?
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Obviously you have recovered well from your surgery and are back in the saddle! It seems to me that this is ex-pastor’s group is doing Tullian a great disservice. They are using him to get themselves in the spotlight. If they really cared about his well being, they would have counseled him to step back and work on the motivation and behavior that has caused all these problems.
I have never had an addiction problem, but have walked beside friends who attend AA or Ala-non. I am impressed with AA’s focus on personal boundaries personal responsibility-and how to own you problems. Humility and self-control, as well as self reflection are important. Tullian shows no sign of stepping back and reassessing how much his ego drives his behavior. The Ex-Pastors group is allowing him to be thrown in the spotlight for their own selfish need for recognition. I suspect he will be set up for even a bigger fall, partially owing to their enabling behavior. So sad for all. Thank you JA for your bravery!!
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Seems like ‘testing the waters’ to me, JA. If the majority of people seem to support the guy, he gets his halo polished. Ego-stroking gives narcissists something to propel themselves with.
Plus, the flock gets the ‘feel goods’ about assuring the fallen they’ve ‘forgiven’ them – makes ’em obedient christian sheep.
Keep up the reminders though – it might make some of the more conscientious squirm. (forget about the narcissist, though. He’ll just give a condescending smirk.)
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Well, Tchividjian is a false teacher who preaches a false gospel, so why should we believe anything this wolf and those of his ilk have to say? It’s all about control, isn’t it? They (Calvinists) cannot go without their control, even when they have been found out! Please, the fake humility is sickening. What is it with these Calvinists and sex? It makes one wonder, right? How many more souls are this Calvinist movement going to (try) destroy? Well, one is too many.
I am sorry, but he and his little gang are not fooling me.
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Thank you for jousting with Greg Atkinson. I got angry when I saw his response to people like you and Andrew who were questioning the wisdom of what they did. He posted an arrogant response to all of us shaming us and telling us to shut up on HIS website. That really ticked me off, honestly. I hate the industry that promotes celebrity status in the Church for profit (Mammon.) Greg you are part of the problem, not the solution. If you want to highlight people who burn out as pastors that’s one thing. But to give a spotlight back to bad boys who need to stay out of it to actually get better is another. Your inability to allow other points of view is just childishness.
Thank you Julie. I agree with your judgment of their website.
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I believe restoration can happen as I have seen it in people I have known. BUT in the cases I am familiar with, they leave public ministry, work in the marketplace, quietly work on their issues-in other words the things that set them up to stumble in the first place-and only when the process was complete-a process that took TIME-and only when others agreed they were ready-THEN they came back into fulltime ministry. And the truth is it is not always wise for someone to come back to professional ministry. The Bible is very clear that a leader must have a good reputation among outsiders. That does not happen quickly.
I think another thing we need to think about is our need to put theose folks on pedestals to begin with. That is just asking for problems. The narcissistic among us are naturally drawn to such positions. And the fact is that the real work of the ministry can usually be done without the spotlight.
As a matter of fact one of my former pastors-one of the good guys, to be clear-has pastored a megachurch here locally for decades, has accomplished a lot for the kingdom, and yet is NOT a household word-while some of his peers at the national level most certainly are. I think my former pastor has the right idea. I may not be a fan of mega churches in general, but I would never hesitate to recommend him in particular as a man of God-and I did and do know him well enough to be able to say that in good conscience. He has managed to walk in humility.
As to the subject of this post-if he is not willing to try to work in the secular realm-get his life and what is left of his family back in order-I wonder how sincere he really is regarding really fixing what is broken in his soul? Getting back into church business is harmful to HIM not just to everyone else. I believe he probably was sincere in what he said in that post as far as it went-the problem is he is dealing on a shallow level with something that needs to go very deep and he probably is not even aware of it. He is not and cannot be the judge of that. I am not being judgmental, just stating a fact. All of us should want any of us to be fully restored but in order to do that you have to actually do what is necessary.
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Thank you for actually doing what these guys won’t do – using your connections to reach out to those hurt by the perp and the narrative that the larger public wants to believe so they can feel good about their celebrity crush again.
If that makes you a troll, so be it.
Also, I had this thought from yesterday. I thought it was relevant:
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GovPappy, those guys love some David. I can’t help but wonder if they see his story as a license to do what they like?
I am getting the uncomfortable feeling that ‘burnout’ is synonymous with ‘sex with a parishioner’ for about half these guys. There were several comments from ‘ex pastors’ who had cheated on their spouse. That is extremely alarming!
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I find Jonathan Merritt’s headline use of “Billy Graham’s Grandson” nothing more than click bait.
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Exactly!! Brad mentioned the same thing to me this morning. BTW, special thanks to Brad who edited the final draft of this post, added important links, and made it look good. Brad rocks. I had an important meeting to attend and he enabled me to do that.
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Whoa, Nellie!
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Agreed – Brad ROCKS and so do YOU!! 🙂
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The scary thing to me is the “return to ministry” thing. Now I don’t know the full Pareto of what led all “ex pastors” on that forum to become an “ex-pastor”–I know at least one friend who was forced out through no apparent fault of his own–but it strikes me that in TT’s case, the damage he’s done is pretty permanent. He needs to find another profession.
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I do not wish to be salacious, but just how many times did TT commit adultery? Originally I was under the impression that it was once (against Kim) and then it seemed like two. Above JA said “I contacted one of the women” which clearly indicates two or more.
My next question is: how many times does it have to happen before the Christian paparazzi and those who prop up “big name celebrities” realize that it is not a fall but a pattern???
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Burwell, I know of 3 women, one is Stacie Phillips (now Tchividjian), his new wife. Many people suspect there are more who have not come forward. It’s interesting to note that I did not seek these women out. They (not Stacie) came to me after I was very clear about calling it clergy sex abuse instead of “affair.” They had been holding on to their secret for a long time. I’m so glad they trusted me and that the truth can finally be exposed.
BTW, one of his grooming methods was his Twitter followers. I don’t know how many of you remember that he maintained the @PastorTullian quite a while after his license was revoked. Because he kept his name, I switched my name to Pastor Julie Anne to prove a point. He wanted to maintain his wide audience. Eventually, he removed the “pastor” title (as did I).
Edited to add: Stacie did not contact me.
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Lea
Very discerning… Pretty close to spot on…
“I am getting the uncomfortable feeling that ‘burnout’
is synonymous with ‘sex with a parishioner’
for about half these guys.”
This is info from a ministry helping pastors.
“Into Thy Word”
http://www.intothyword.org/apps/articles/?articleid=36562&columnid=
What is Going on with the Pastors in America?
Here are some startling statistics on pastors…
Three hundred fifteen (315 or 30%) said
they had either been in an ongoing affair
or a one-time sexual encounter with a parishioner.
On this same page, “Into Thy Word,” used info from…
“Here is research that we distilled from
Focus on the Family, and Fuller Seminary,
all of which backed up our findings…”
Almost forty percent polled said
they have had an extra-marital affair
since beginning their ministry.
3 out of ten pastors – almost 4 out of ten pastors….
ADMIT to haveing an extra-marital affair.
And, in the Bible…
NOT one of His Disciples called them self pastor.
Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
NOT one of His Disciples had the “Title” pastor.
Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
Houston – WE, Have a problem…
Pastors – Pastors – Everywhere – Except in the Bible…
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Imagine, if you will, if the pervert Mark Driscoll and this Tchividjian had to run a “church.” Whoopee!
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So now there is at least three affairs at play? Reminds me of some posts over at PimpPreacher.com highlighting certain black bishops who keep getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar. There is no way any serial adulterer should be getting any positive press from anyone. If this is not a case of truly “cheap grace” than I do not know what is.
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Julie Anne, just an FYI, the @pastortullian twitter account of Tullian Tchananagans has now been suspended.
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Mr. J, this is precisely why I asked. I do not wish to cast aspersions on someone for failing as I have my own struggles with sin. However, TT’s behavior moves beyond struggle with sin into the realm of indulging the flesh. I am reminded of the words of St. Paul “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!” (Romans 6:1-2)
Honestly, I am surprised at Jonathan Merritt’s fanboy-style article. I thought that he was deeper than that, but we all have our own areas we are blind to.
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I was looking at one of the old articles and found this Julie Anne quoted from Tullians book on marriage:
Just thought I’d throw this out there. Maybe we should be more suspicious of the ‘no one is innocent here’ people?
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I have not been a big fan of Merritt since day one. There have been some things out there about his own shenanigans that have subsequently been erased. He and his big name SBC dad both are users of the pew peons. Recruiting the pew peons into their MLM. Using daddy’s name to get the big religious leaders to sign on to his environmental statement for his early on 15 minutes of media fame claiming he was speaking for the entire SBC. Lying to the pew peons and his girlfriend about his orientation so he could keep his paid ministry gig. Then he presents as a liberal “religion reporter” trashing the Big Eva that gave him his start and he used. So not sure what Merritt’s beliefs are except…… he believes in himself.
I have no doubt he sees Tullian as a kindred spirit.
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Yes, I’d like to see what’s going on with the parody acct.
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Julie Anne
Real nice job exposing this junk.
Went to expastors.com… The article before TT’s.
“God is Not Done with You Yet. And Neither Are We.”
This post is a preview to TT’s. About TT.”
Bo Lane, says in this post about TT…
++++++++++
“You know, I’ve been in marketing for more than 15 years. I’ve personally developed strategies that have transformed churches and businesses of many different sizes. I’ve built a good career from it. Yet, when we break marketing down to its most simplistic form, all we’re doing is convincing people to buy stuff they don’t actually need.
But, friends, that’s not what we’re about here at ExPastors.com.
We’re not selling stuff you don’t need….”
++++++++++
Bo Lane says he’s “been in marketing for more than 15 years.”
“…convincing people to buy stuff they don’t actually need.”
I’m-a-thinkin that’s exactly what he is doing with TT.
“…convincing people to buy stuff (TT) they don’t actually need.”
Makes perfect sense and a good reason for him to delete the comments…
That dis-agree with his “marketing strategies.” 😉
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“Whether it’s serving in a pastoral or lay leadership role or as the janitor mopping floors, we believe the expastor should, once again, become reintegrated back into ministry, into a place where they are fulfilling their call.” Ex pastors mission statement
Ok, whenever you hear or see the word “call” or “calling” from or attached to a pastor or ministry leader……………………run!
I.AM.DEAD.SERIOUS.
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lydia00,
I just love your comments; all of them! Keep them coming, right? They are as straight as arrows…right on target.
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I read what this pastor wrote and I hear all about him… NOT about the pain he has caused…
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Awesome post, JA! I hope you are feeling better.
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“I was looking at one of the old articles and found this Julie Anne quoted from Tullians book on marriage:
“No one is ever innocent in a grace-centered marriage. If original sin is as evenly distributed as the Bible claims it is, then both parties have some culpability. Every marriage is the union of two selfish people, fighting for their way, desperate to win.”
Just thought I’d throw this out there. Maybe we should be more suspicious of the ‘no one is innocent here’ people?”
This attitude seems to be quite prevalent in comp circles when it comes to marriage. Even soft comp circles. To hear them talk, most couples are divorcing over how the toilet paper is hung. Not psychological, emotional or physical abuse. They should visit family coyrt
I have heard variations of “both are guilty” over and over. What I have found in abusive marriages is usually one is very selfish and the other, a doormat or co dependent, enabler.
The only thing this universal “comp law” does is enable the abuser even more. Why? Because the doormat is already blaming themselves for all of it. That is how it works.
So, I start with the value of the beaten down doormat if I am in the position to do so. They simply must be convinced of their God given value and that the abuser devalues themselves and others by their chosen behavior. Most pastors teach them the opposite and then hold them accountable cos, as they say, nothing is more important than marriage. Not even truth.
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Boston Lady, sounds like we have had similar experiences!!!
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I’m in the PCA and have been following this. This just sickens me to no end! Julie, this is the first I heard that he remarried! Why has this been kept under the radar? Is this was one of the women he cheated on Kim with, and married this woman, he is even more unqualified. WOW!! You said you spoke to Kim. How is she doing? I’m assuming all that Tullian said in his article about how he and his kids are good, is not all true. I know if he was my dad I would still be pissed!
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Well done. Maybe being unable to keep it zipped up is actually evidence God did NOT call you to ministry and that website needs to adjust its mission statement.
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Ya think, Steve?!?! Seriously!!!
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Reading those tweets from TT’s supporters made me sick. He is bad enough but they are just as bad for enabling and promoting him. They are a bunch of phonies, peddling the word of God for gain.
I had a friend who was a pastor who left the ministry because of burn-out. The poor guy had been totally depleted, but he left with his integrity intact. I could not imagine him becoming involved in a website like expastors.com, I could not imagine him putting his burn-out on an equal basis with sexual predation.
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What you are seeing here is a coordinated effort. Tullian wrote the first draft of his Ex-pastors article in March 2016. It was a fluff piece designed to say TT had suffered enough and repented enough, now he’s finishing his new book tentatively titled Finding Grace in a Hopeless Place and Ex-Pastors was fine with helping him promote himself and this disgraceful book that basically profits off of the pain of his victims. That is repellent.
After the discovery of his affair and defrocking at Coral Ridge, Tullian’s old mentor Kevin Labby stuck his neck out for Tullian and hired him at Willow Creek Church in Winter Springs, FL. WC lost members permanently over that decision. Tullian repaid Labby’s kindness by lying to Labby and concealing that he had had an affair prior to the retaliatory one. When Labby discovered this he fired Tullian. That happened in mid-March 2016, so the Ex-Pastors’ TT article had to be scuttled. They patiently waited 6 months for time to pass, then brought it back with the new “suicide” twist, which was not in the original draft 6 months earlier. Others have commented that after the scandal, TT wrote that although he now better understood the dark depths of depression, he personally couldn’t entertain thoughts of self-harm, so the suicide note/click-bait appears to have been manufactured as a means to spice the story up, ratchet up the sympathy and try to bully critics or questioners into silence.
Six months is the standard minimum time that various people in the Celebrity Pastor Rehab movement seem to embrace. It appears that this article is just part of a well planned and executed PR strategy to lay the groundwork for the launch of TT’s new book. The RNS Merritt article coming out immediately following the less than gushing response to the Ex-Pastors piece, more or less confirms that. Who writes an article to explain your explanation? Evidently, a religious news service helping a predator engage in damage control prior to his book launch. You will notice the headline in the Merritt article highlighted the “suicide” and the connection to “Billy Graham” – clearly intending to make would-be commenters back off.
The RNS article gave TT loads of space to say how terrible the “ugly responses” were from those bad, graceless Christians – you know, the ones with real concerns for the victims he abused and the flock he betrayed and abandoned. It also allows TT to say how great this “experience” has been for his kids, noting that his relationship is now “tight and deeper than it’s ever been” sending the clear message to Christians everywhere that committing adultery multiple times then moving 1,200 miles away while your kids are still in school will actually improve your relationship with them. Shame on you Tullian. Then he discusses just getting back from visiting Grandpa Billy, like the dutiful, loving grandson he is, and his description leads readers to assume Daddy Bill is okay with this, since the time spent with him was very “sweet and gracious” (as opposed to Billy telling TT to get his crap together). This is implied and subtle but this description was carefully crafted and featured by design.
As for TT returning to ministry? Tullian tells Merritt “I’m open and willing to do whatever God summons me to do and to go wherever he calls me to go.” And GUESS who gets to decide what God says? Tullian. This leaves no room for argument. TT humbly says he will only go and do where and what God tells him to and then TT gets to be the sole person who decides what God “said”. That is Robert Morris of Gateway Church of Southlake, TX favorite trick in the book. Then IF you question Tullian getting back into ministry too soon, you are QUESTIONING GOD HIMSELF you evil blasphemer!
So far, Tulllian would have us believe that after his fall and subsequent “repentance”, GOD has told him to lie to his former mentor at Willow Creek and take advantage of his kindness. Move to one of the most exclusive areas of Houston to live with a wealthy divorcee, Stacie Phillips, rated as one of the top ten hottest and most eligible bachelorettes in Houston. Tullian is sooooo lucky that God has such awesome taste. Fortunately for God, Stacie’s published turn ons in a man are “clean white teeth, a great smile, very fit, witty, funny, handy, athletic, romantic, loves Jesus and more..” Although God may have messed up on her wanting a man who is “stable, grounded and faithful” and the “deal breaker” of a “man who flirts with the opposite sex”. Tullian would also have us believe that God instructed him to move 1,200 miles away from his home church and his children. It seems God has also ordered him to write and promote a book that glorifies himself while simultaneously claiming victimhood so he can make money off of all the pain he has caused. I mean, Tullian is only following God’s will and instruction according to Tullian in the Merritt article, as any humble and repentant servant would.
I guess it comes down to which god Tullian is really worshipping, doesn’t it? The people who aid and abet these actions will one day have to answer for this. Hopefully in the mean time people’s eyes will be opened to the true character of this man and all the men supporting this untimely and despicable, self-promoting comeback.
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I think it is important to understand that the Celebrity Pastor Rehab Movement is a united effort. Celebrity Pastors desperately want to restore any fallen pastor as quickly as they can, so that when they fall, they too can be speedily restored. So many, many powerful people have a vested interest in seeing Tullian fully restored and quickly. If Billy Graham’s grandson cannot be restored, then none of them can count on automatic restoration.
This is the reason that Robert Morris and Jimmy Evans of Gateway Church of Southlake, TX jumped in to restore Mark Driscoll so quickly. When they gave him his first post-resignation platform (just a couple weeks after he emailed in his resignation, thus refusing the restoration process offered by his own elders) Jimmy had never met Mark and Robert had spoken with him once back stage at a Judah Smith event for about 5 minutes. He was a virtual stranger to them, so why stick their necks out and become elders and backers for this abusive, publicly disgraced pastor? To keep the Celebrity Pastor Machine going.
Pastor Robert Morris is also the pastor of Marcus Lamb, the founder and star of Daystar Television. After Marcus’ three year long affair with his Marketing Director was discovered, Robert Morris did not have Marcus step down from ministry. Marcus preaches all over the country as a guest pastor, in addition to doing his television ministry. Gateway gets a lot of free broadcast time from Daystar plus their tithe, so no time off for Marcus for a period of restoration. Millions would have noticed if he had left and that could have reminded the public that pastors can be found to be biblically disqualified from ministry.
Gateway is an ARC (Association of Related Churches) Church. ARC churches are Charismatic/Pentecostal and extremely seeker friendly and entertainment focused. The Executive Director of all of ARC is Dino Rizzo, a man who had an affair with a young staff member then lied about it. He still hasn’t come clean. The young lady was given money to shut up and leave the state. According to the recently fired head pastor of Mosaic Church, Dustin Boles, it is ARC who is offering to do his restoration to church ministry 6 months after his most recent alleged sexual assaults. As bad as Tullian is, he’s got nothing on Boles. ARC is striving to launch 200 new churches by 2020. ARC was just in the Gulf Coast (where Dustin’s church is located) on 9-22-16, recruiting new pastors in the area for new church plants. Look to them as a possible backer if Tullian decides to go back into regular ministry. Charisma News and Relevant Magazine both rushed to feature an article applauding Tullian and the Ex-Pastor article, so apparently Tullian had the Pentecostals at “hello”.
One of the reasons that so many pastors support this abhorrent system of premature restoration, is because losing their job due to a fall is one of their biggest fears. I remember when the documentary about Ted Haggard came out. Ted’s “restoration” was largely handled by Gateway, who also gave Ted’s church, New Life of Colorado Springs, Gateway Pastor Brady Boyd as their new pastor. That film terrified these pastors to no end. It really shook them up. Gateway spends $161M a year to run 1 large campus and 4 modest ones (they opened a 6th in 2016). Their pay package is over $100,000 on average including benefits. Many of the Gateway Pastors do not have a college or seminary degree. They have no way of replacing their staggering pay package and massive T&E accounts if they fall and are not quickly restored. In the film, they show Ted unable to find a job. He cheerfully applies over and over and over. He explains that his degree from Oral Roberts in Biblical Studies doesn’t even qualify him to become a janitor. By the end of the film Ted is trying, not that successfully, to sell life insurance door to door. He has to travel all over the state of Arizona to try to make a single sale. It’s gut wrenching.
Please understand that this one film made a lasting impact on many Celebrity Pastors and their staff. For anyone struggling to understand why pastors, Christian leaders and Christian publications are supporting this Tullian thing so whole heartedly and without concern for the victims or betrayed flock, you may want to consider watching this film. It’s only 42 minutes long. It will help you understand why so many immoral pastors are terrified of someone like Tullian not being able to be restored quickly. This trend will only continue to get worse.
FTR this film is fairly sympathetic towards Ted. https://vimeo.com/93207547 I would urge viewers to try to balance the emotions of this happy go lucky, good spirited, “down but not broken” man on the film against the man others know. I found myself feeling sorry for Ted throughout the film. Then I read the book written by the male prostitute who serviced Ted for over three years and he paints an entirely different picture of Ted, as do many who survived that time at New Life. IMO one of the main reasons the escort, Mike Jones, reported Ted to the press was because of how bitterly disappointed he was when he found out Ted was a pastor. To me it didn’t seem to be so much about the LGBT issues, but because after having a three year relationship with Mike, when Mike lost his mother who was his best friend in the world, Ted showed zero concern or compassion for Mike. That clearly hurt him in a visceral and profound way. Viewers should also take into consideration that in addition to the male prostitute, Ted sexually abused college students at his church. These boys with the Desperation Leadership Academy, and their families, trusted Ted and he betrayed their trust in the worst way. He also had a pedophile pastor on staff whom he protected. According to that pastor’s bail bondsman, Ted and New Life helped the pastor escape overseas as a fugitive to avoid prison time, and they did it because the pedophile had far worse information on Ted and New Life.
Ted has since “recovered” anyway. He starred on Celebrity Wife Swap, swapping wives with Gary Busey, and he has his own new church in Colorado called St James. He was also given a large financial settlement and owned a very expensive home with plenty of equity, so Ted’s claims of poverty in the film are exaggerated to say the least. However, the amount of fear that those Celebrity Pastors had over that film – that tells you exactly why they will put ANYONE back into the pulpit quickly, be it Tullian Tchividjian, Ted Haggard, Dustin Boles, Mark Driscoll, Perry Noble or worse.
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Lydia: “So, I start with the value of the beaten down doormat if I am in the position to do so. They simply must be convinced of their God given value and that the abuser devalues themselves and others by their chosen behavior.”
So true. I was a co-dependent doormat in a non-abusive marriage, and it was heading towards divorce (my wife had no clue at the time). I was taught that it was the husband’s duty to sacrifice for his wife, just like Christ, and that’s what I was doing. I was staying in a dead-end job, going to an abusive church and stuck at home because there was nothing to do – all so that she could be near her family.
I think God put it in my heart that I had nothing to lose by standing up for myself – if my wife responded in kindness, then the marriage could be restored, and if she responded harshly, then I was right in thinking it was headed towards divorce. In God’s providence, she supported my growth out of co-dependence (not that I’m entirely healed of that).
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The greatest ‘celebrity preacher and teacher’ ever to walk this planet, Jesus, God in the flesh, was crucified at the cross for his celebrity status for most people hated what He taught. Jesus’ preaching and teachings weren’t about nickels and noses as what masquerades itself as visible Christianity is today.
Perhaps it is time for the celebrity status to go back home, get real jobs instead of being hirelings (The Apostle Paul worked to support himself throughout the ministry of Jesus Christ), live quiet lives and at peace with one another, and allow the work of God, the Holy Spirit, in the life of every born again believer, to minister to one another in love.
Have we forgotten that when a person becomes born again, their body (physical body) becomes the temple of the Holy Spirit to reside in, and thus, believers become the holy priesthood of believers sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and ministering His Ways to those around us. The temples are no longer buildings, or anything made with human hands, but us, Christ believers, and we no longer have to succumb to the ways of false religion.
There was a time in my life when I sinned and made celebrity preachers “a god” in my life as well, promoting their names above the Holy Name of Jesus, promoting their books, dvd’s, programs, conferences, etc., and instead of encouraging them to read, study, and meditate upon the Scriptures for themselves, asking the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to them, I told folks to follow this person or that person because they had the Scriptures “right.”
What I have discovered within Christianity is this…..pastors, leadership yes men and women, prayer chain leaders, church boards, elders, deacons and deaconesses, worship leader teams, or any other kind of hierarchal system put in place have a difficult time accepting the fact that believers can minister to one another as led by His Spirit, equally, without the seminary or Bible college degrees, without any titles, without all of the visible religious buildings and icons, and without their help.
The word ‘leadership’ has become an idol within visible Christianity, and to date, I haven’t had one pastor or anyone within leadership for that matter, bend down and wash my feet as Jesus did to His Disciples in the upper room before His crucifixion. Jesus showed us what true leadership looks like and still, western Christianity fails to follow His Ways.
It is time for Tullian to become one of us lower laity types with whom he and others life him have looked down upon for quite some time, remembering that he too, will stand before the King of Kings, Jesus, on His Throne, one day soon.
Lower laity sins…….they get drug through the mud and verbally flogged, reputation destroyed, and shun, shun, shunned by the fake body of a christlike figure.
Pastor/leadership sins……they are coddled, prayed for, given much encouragement, tears are shed for their “mishaps and mistakes (never called ‘sins’)”, are given counseling to restore them back to leadership, are encouraged to write books and give conferences to show a false repentance so as to make big bucks on their new and improved faith and trust in themselves, and are rarely, rarely shun, shun, shunned by church folks for the mess they have made with their lives, because after all…..celebrity preachers have become gods.
And we call this Christianity? I wonder what Jesus calls it?
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LT, your comments always blow my mind. I totally believe them because I saw similar in the seeker mega world at that level. They just did not brag about it or were as obvious as Morris and Co. But the ground work was laid for such all the time.
It really caused me to start looking at the relationship between the pew sitters and the church staff in mega churches and even smaller churches. What is the attraction? Somebody else lays out the God thing for them? Directs their thinking?
Then the idea that so many in our country look to someone else to know best for them whether it is government, church or the boss at work. We have quickly become a nation of little drones attracted to promises of security, comfort and shiny objects masquerading as spiritual. Other leaders convince people that spiritual means mandatory suffering for all, except them.
If I had any influence at all it would be toward the rank and file and their beliefs toward authority. The generation that fought tyrants is pretty much gone now. But a more deceptive tyrant took their place.
It’s like we have been programmed to check our brains because the “smarter” people will think for us. It has all become so Orwellian.
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Katy,
A brood of vipers, is my answer as to what Jesus would call it.
LT,
Yu wrote, “I guess it comes down to which god Tullian is really worshipping, doesn’t it?” Yup, you got to the core. It’s not the God of the Bible; that’s obvious. These guys (from a specific man-made philosophy) are above and under the law at the same time; they are so versatile and inspiring…NOT. Fakes, the bunch of them.
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Surely Stacy Phillips had a pre nup?
But it is a perfect place for Tullian to relaunch since he does not need a real job and Stacy can make his child support payments until the last one is 18. Isn’t that how it works?
I keep thinking about all those Coral Ridge folks and other admirers who trolled blogs about Tullian when the first scandal hit. They were adamant in spreading Tullians cheap grace message–for him. What always gets to me with such responses is it never occurs to them how much worse it always is IF anything like that becomes public. They don’t get how it works. Everything is about stage personas in that world. So how would they know? But what would it matter since they have been taught deception, adultery, selfifness is the normal for believers. No biggie. You are forgiven before you do anything bad! It’s covered!
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Whoa LT, I didn’t know that! Or all that other stuff about haggard either, like that he is pastoring again. I do agree that it’s all money for some of them, because starting over in a career , a real one, is a serious thing. But you would think that alone would keep them faithful! Instead they are worse than the general public. What a mess.
Also, i was one who brought up that article where tullian mentioned suicide last year. if I had a blog myself I might do a big Lexus search to see if there were other mentions and put a timeline on his comments to see the progression in that story.
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LT said,
Tullian was on TBN a year or more ago, and I think it was to promote some book (I think the title was “One Way Love”?).
(Yes, you can see _clips of Tullian on TBN_ (link is to “iTbN” site), in some cases, I think he was promoting books he had out awhile ago).
If he’s working on a new book, I hope I don’t see him turn up on TBN promoting it.
I kind of knew this would happen. It’s par the course for preachers who get caught in affairs or other situations –
Such pastors lay low for awhile, but then, the S.O.P. Is they….
come out proclaiming how they learned from their lesson,
they are just a poor, dirty sinner in need of Jesus (like the rest of us),
while church people were so very awful horrible to them God loves them (‘Grace! Grace! Isn’t God’s Grace great, we don’t deserve it, but he Graces us all over the place!’)
-And coincidentally (wink, wink), they have a new book about their experience of missing the mark and how God still loves them
-the new book sets the stage for them to take the pulpit again.
Guys like (him and Driscoll and more) this need to step away from using the faith as a career. I guess they have no other skill set or college degree to fall back on, so they must feel stuck doing nothing but “selling Jesus” to gullible Christians.
Surely this guy must have enough in the bank to go to some vocational school and learn welding or something to where he could get a non-religious job to pay the bills.
In addition to viewing church work as business like (these preachers fancy themselves CEOs), I really do suspect one other possible problem is it’s viewed like a family legacy – ‘because daddy and grand-daddy were preachers, I should be one too’ type of thing.
I don’t think the Bible says preaching or other tasks in the church should only go out to people whose fathers also held that position – it’s based on calling and God’s gifting. I don’t care if your dad and dad before him were preachers, it’s not a business or career type thing. Just because daddy and grand-daddy were preachers doesn’t mean you are called to or skilled to do it.
I wonder is some of them find the Christian preaching life easier and more cushy than having to get a regular 9 to 5 job, work in an office, etc.
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By the way, I’ve been wondering… is lydia00 the same poster as the person who posts under the name Lydia?
I sometimes see the two different names. I always thought it was the same person but the name was showing up differently, then it dawned on me this past week that it might be two different Lydias.
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Julie Anne said,
Do you mean to say he was using his Twitter account to flirt or pick up women?
Maybe “flirt” isn’t the right word – but gain their trust, get to know them, then make his move?
That’s gross. A little like pedos who try to lure kids into their skeevy vans with candy.
I also don’t picture Twitter being a good venue for dating / flirting, not really. I’d think e-mail or Facebook would be more suitable – you can get more privacy with those formats. I think Twitter is either all private or all public, no in-between, tho you can use their private message system, but I find that cumbersome.
But I guess it worked for Tullian, if that is how he was wrangling women.
As a life long single who has wanted to be married, and whose parents always told me to look to a local church as a great place to meet honorable, quality men to date/marry, these sorts of stories make me sad and want to throw up and very distrustful of men who proclaim the name of Christ and/or who go to church.
I sometimes get the impression that meeting single men at atheist get-togethers at a local bar would be a better, safer place to get a boyfriend than a church down the street.
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Daisy, we went through this here a while back. For some reason only the gods of the meta sphere understand, it seems to follow no pattern except, perhaps, what device I am on whether I am Lydia or lydia00. It seems to follow some sort of apple/android pattern but even that is not consistent. I apologize for the confusion. For example, if I commented once without signing into WordPress, why does it make me sign in the second time on the same device? And even more curiously, I never signed up for lydia00. It was assigned to me by WordPress! Sigh.
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“Guys like (him and Driscoll and more) this need to step away from using the faith as a career. I guess they have no other skill set or college degree to fall back on, so they must feel stuck doing nothing but “selling Jesus” to gullible Christians.”
I always thought they were working in their skill set. Con man orators.
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Question: is it a fact that Tullian’s ex wife/ first wife (Kim is her name?) even had an affair?
Or was he just saying that to drum up sympathy and an excuse for his second affair?
I’m finding this a somewhat convoluted story to follow.
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Lydia said,
Oh, okay. I was just curious about it. I just wantedto keep straight if I was talking to the same person or two different Lydia’s.
(BTW, I am not against people posting under more than one anonymous name. I’ve had to do so before across the internet because I’ve been stalked online by different men.
I know a lot of people – especially some Christians – put some stock in people posting under their honest to goodness names, something which I used to do, but I stopped doing that after being stalked for a period of years by two different guys.)
I used to have problems signing in on here.
I used to post under the screen name “MissDaisyFlower” or something like that, then after I shortened it to “Daisy,” Julie Anne’s blog would throw fits about it, it wound’t let me log on, but it would, but it would do crazy things to my screen name. I haven’t had too many problems the last few months, at least.
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So sorry about the Word Press issues. I wish I knew how to resolve these problems! 😲
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LT said,
I used to have clinical depression and thought of suicide on and off since my teen years. He won’t get sympathy from me on that count.
I never used either as an excuse to sin, either.
I had an online friend who used to threaten suicide in private online communication once every few months, even over stuff like she chipped her nail polish (I wish I was serious, but no, she would threaten to take her life over stuff like that). She would later retract and say she was just being a drama queen.
As someone who seriously has struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts (something I don’t discuss often), it bugs me when others use either as a sympathy or attention card. It’s not a topic I bring up much. I wonder about people who do, or at a time it seems “convenient,” like, I dunno, a defrocked minister staging a come-back.
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Julie Anne, that’s OK. It’s not your fault. Word Press just acts weird about things like screen names and logging in. 🙂
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“Question: is it a fact that Tullian’s ex wife/ first wife (Kim is her name?) even had an affair?”
I’ve wondered this, too. I would be loathe to invade her privacy, she has suffered enough. I do wonder if his definition of “affair” is the same for her as it is for himself.
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Daisy,
You want to meet a trustworthy man? Look for one who does not want to convert you to his elitist “religion” on or before the first date, or the second, or third, or ever. Tell him to take a hike.
You’re precious, Daisy, and the guy who deserves you must be equal to this task (this came out ‘fore I was born):
Daisy, pray to God and he’ll send you one, I promise; the right one. Atheist in bars will bring other problems, you know?
Pray, Daisy! There are many great Christian men out there; Please don’t let rotten apples like Tchividjian and his buddies spoil it for you. Unfortunately, today, in some belief systems, one weds the man AND his false church and whatever comes with that (see my earlier posts to see which man-made philosophy I’m talking about). I suggest you give those a wide berth.
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I did try once to fix it but it took me into a black circular hole as bad as Calvinism. I gave up. I am having similar issues with google docs between android/apple devices and laptops. It is maddening!
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“Question: is it a fact that Tullian’s ex wife/ first wife (Kim is her name?) even had an affair?”
I’ve wondered this, too. I would be loathe to invade her privacy, she has suffered enough. I do wonder if his definition of “affair” is the same for her as it is for himself.”
My rule is NEVER to believe those who have exhibited narcissistic tendencies over time. They are bold liars. People assume people don’t boldly lie but the bolder and more emphatic, the more folks tend to believe it. They also know their “marks” well. She has remained private. My guess is she knows by now exactly what she is dealing with.
Narcissistic types create confusion and chaos. They are working 10 steps ahead and making themselves the victim while we are trying to ascertain truth from lies and timelines.
If Kim walked away and stays private, she is one wise woman. Narcissists always win. Always. They go through people like they change underwear when they are no longer useful. And they always find a new crop of marks to con.
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LT said,
Thank you, yes – so succinctly put. This was something I was trying to say above. I hate how fallen preachers try to frame this stuff and they do it every time they get caught.
They make a bad or selfish choice which hurts people, but instead of getting out of ministry (which they should do), they try to worm their way back in by selling their redemption story.
And in it, they go on and on about how other Christians were so mean and judgmental towards them during that time.
Yeah, I think God can and will forgive this guy for having affairs. So can other Christians.
But IMO, part of that means the guy who had the affairs has to feel actual, true remorse for it, and all the people he hurt along the way, and maybe try to make amends to them in some way – and stop, stop, stop trying to be in the ‘Jesus Business.’
Stop going on Christian TV shows, stop writing Christian themed books, stop trying to be a preacher again. Find a new, non-religious career, please.
LT said,
Billy Graham is in his 90s now. The rest of the Graham family keeps dragging him out every time they want press. I wish they would let the man stay retired, he’s more than earned it.
I read that Franklin Graham buried his mother on the BG Tourist Attraction site, against her wishes!! She has clearly said she did not want to be buried there, but FG buried here there anyhow. I read that online somewhere a few years ago.
I don’t know if this page mentions that or not…
_Billy Graham’s sons in feud over parents’ burial site_
I believe that Billy Graham was likely a sincere believer just trying to preach Jesus, but I wonder abut the rest of his family – some of them seem to just be interested in using BG’s (or Jesus’ name) to make a career, to make money.
LT said,
I have long suspected this, that this is why preachers give other fallen preachers a platform, like Morris allowing Driscoll to be a guest speaker at his church or at some conference.
Their standards are not the same as God’s. God says in the Bible he does not play favorites.
There was also a story in the OT (if I’m not mistaken) of two sons of a priest who worked in the Temple who were making a mockery of the Temple and God by showing up drunk or having numerous affairs or something – misbehaving somehow, and the biological father would not reprimand them. I think God ended up punishing the sons.
I think God is willing to forgive and extend grace when people make mistakes or sin, but at the same time, I think he also holds people accountable in some situations (like ongoing, unrepentant sin).
LT said,
Ah. I was suspecting this must be the case, and you confirmed it. Maybe Christians need to start insisting that pastors have non-religious degrees to fall back on. That might make some of the nonsense we see go on get cut down some?
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LT said,
I was familiar with some of the Haggard story, but not all of it. That is awful.
I related to Mike. After my mother died, all the Christian family and some church people I went to for support chose to blow me off, or criticize me, give platitudes, or basically tell me to suck it up and get over it alone. Very, very unsympathetic. And I loved my mother more than anyone in the world, she was my best friend. I was really lost without her. My Christian family didn’t care, neither did most church people I went to.
So I don’t blame Mike for feeling betrayed by that guy. Don’t blame him one bit.
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“As for TT returning to ministry? Tullian tells Merritt “I’m open and willing to do whatever God summons me to do and to go wherever he calls me to go.” And GUESS who gets to decide what God says? Tullian. This leaves no room for argument. TT humbly says he will only go and do where and what God tells him to and then TT gets to be the sole person who decides what God “said”. That is Robert Morris of Gateway Church of Southlake, TX favorite trick in the book. Then IF you question Tullian getting back into ministry too soon, you are QUESTIONING GOD HIMSELF you evil blasphemer!”
This has been a huge problem for me, overall in the Christian faith. “God said it, I believe it, that settles it”. Like our brains fall out of our heads when Jesus comes to live in our hearts.
I would believe it more if God “summoned” him to de-worm orphans in Uganda instead of putting himself back into the very ministry that was his downfall.
Also, I have heard it said that the very problem with pastors is that they become the heroes of everyone but their own family. It never ends well.
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Yes! I thought once because someone answered a question flat out they probably weren’t lying. Wrong.
I would question the Kim affair as well, although I’m not sure I would blame her if she had one after being cheated on. That marriage was probably a mess for a long time. The only public statement I saw from her was basically along the lines of my husband is a total liar now leave me alone.
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“And we call this Christianity? I wonder what Jesus calls it?
Harlot?
Whore?
Prostitute?
Beast?
Idolatry?
😊
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Boston Lady
I’m familiar with the Wolverton Mountain song! Certain people in my family used to play that on tapes.
Thank you for the concern. I’m not sure about praying for a spouse. I’m am in my 40s now and have never married.
I used to pray for a spouse since I was a kid, but I’m not so keen on that any more.
I don’t think God sends people husbands, even if they pray. I’m more of the view now you just have to visit bars to meet men, ask friends to fix you up, and that sort of thing.
After seeing so many of these stories of Christian men (including ones who work as pastors) who cheat on their wives or abuse them, I don’t see any sense in sticking solely to Christian men, or in eliminating Non-Christian ones from the dating pool.
My primary method for judging men now is how they treat me, as opposed to “does he go to church,” “is he a Christian or not,” etc.
I do know that not all atheists are great catches.
A family member of mine lived with one as a boyfriend for many years, and this particular atheist guy used her financially, barely worked the years they were together, and he cheated on her twice.
I see so many stories of awful church-going Christian men, I get the feeling my odds would be better dating secular men (provided they are non-abusive and don’t exploit me).
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Daisy,
I get you! I did not mean God could literally send you a man in a box, that would be pre-post-terous, hee! What I am saying is that He hears our prayers and petitions, Daisy, and it’s ultimately our choice, of course. Yeah, a man going to church or being a “Christian” means very little today; those are true words, as the line between church-going men and secular men has faded so much that one can’t tell the one from the other until he asks you to recite the Heidelberg AND Westminster Catechisms on the second date; oh, heck, then it’s too late! RUN!
I prefer Christian men who do not fit (either forcefully or cunningly) me into their theology but who make me part of their lives and who treat me as an equal and not as a subordinate.
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It is true that Kim had an affair. I have confirmed this with her. With Kim, I am clear to label it as an affair. This was a consensual relationship with no one in authority, unlike Tullian who committed clergy sexual abuse. When you are a pastor and have sex with a congregant, it is clergy sexual abuse because of the power differential. He was in a position of trust just as a teacher, counselor, medical professional has a power differential.
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Salty, I call them Nicolaitans. In Greek, it means “conqueror of the people”. It is mentioned twice in Revelation. A very bad thing to be.
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Lydia – Thanks for the compliment. I am glad you have seen enough to know this stuff is true. Some blog formats allow commenters to post a lot of links and very specific data. I have spent hours compiling well documented answers from some folks questioning the comments. When it comes to discussing Gateway I think GW actions must seem so absurd to most normal people that they may tend to believe it’s a fabrication, exaggeration or a misunderstanding. It’s not. It’s really that bad, and if people follow the church they will see it for themselves. Even after a decade with that church, my jaw still continues to drop week after week in utter disbelief at how bad they continue to get. If I had the time and forum it would really blow people’s minds to read all of what goes on there. It’s beyond scandalous.
Probably the scariest thing I encounter is that people think if they live outside of the North Texas bubble they are immune to the nonsense. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just like Willow Creek and Saddleback used to set the tone for the Christian mega world a decade ago, Gateway and Hillsong have completely taken over that role now. Brian Houston is speaking at GW this weekend and teaching at their Pastor’s Conference this week. 4,000 pastors will cram into the sanctuary for that Conference all desperate to learn the secrets of Gateway’s outrageous success. For 5 fairly average campuses they took in $150M off a flock of just 28,000 in 2015. Every greedy pastor on the planet wants a piece of that action. This year they are setting up outdoor tents with jumbo screens as overflow to accommodate late registrants still eager to learn GW’s scam techniques. So Gateway nonsense is exported to every state in the Union. They also are on all 6 continents. With Robert Morris on Daystar, TBN and local Dallas TV every day of the week, people’s grandparents are also subject to getting suckered in by these con artists and having their savings drained regardless of what city they live in.
If people watch Gateway they can figure out most of what drives the other seedy megas. I don’t know if Tullian will sign with ARC or just go to Gateway for that new Gateway Network plant money like Mark Driscoll did. Stacie may have enough wealthy contacts in Houston that Tullian can stay totally independent. But I think Tullian is going to return to the pulpit at some point. He wouldn’t be pushing his new rehabbed self so hard otherwise, just for a book. If TT does plant his own church, it won’t be a stuffy Presbyterian one, it will be an ARC style one where entertainment and cash are king. So reviewing the ethics and technique behind GW will be helpful to Houstonians.
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Daisy said: “I used to have clinical depression and thought of suicide on and off since my teen years. He won’t get sympathy from me on that count. I never used either as an excuse to sin, either.”
I am so sorry that you have suffered from this. I am extremely sensitive to this issue. I know that depression can be a lifelong struggle that many go through in near silence. I feel for you and you have my prayers and best wishes.
If I thought Tullian was in ANY danger of currently contemplating suicide I would have never written anything on this. But just as others know mental health issues through and through, I know megalomaniac pastors every bit as well. I know what they are willing to say and do to make themselves untouchable and I have a very good sense for when people are being played based on years of experience.
IMO, Tullian is extremely self-absorbed. He exhibits clear signs of narcissism. Narcissists do not commit suicide. It’s not how that mental disorder works. Some narcissists will claim that they are contemplating suicide if it helps them to manipulate better. However, the way the “false self” works doesn’t allow for serious consideration of this option. That said, when narcissists are faced with a fairly catastrophic life crisis, some will engage in passive suicidal ideation. The typical cause for this is when the narcissist has a significant interruption in their narcissistic supply source. Then their whole world seems to be crumbling. Tullian losing his flock may have felt like that but as Billy Graham’s grandson, a rockstar preacher and best selling author he still had plenty of narcissistic supply remaining. As long as narcissists have that, the ideation stops there.
Following his firing and defrocking two years ago, it is possible that he did think about suicide, for those two hours like he wrote, followed by his nap. But as he said in both the article and in other material, that was the end of it. God gave him peace and he moved on. In addition to him saying he had moved on, Tullian is clearly living his dream life at the moment. He not only is married to one of Houston’s top wealthy bachelorettes and living the high life in The Woodlands, he has said the other aspects of his life are also better now. Tullian had his social media open for several months after his “crisis” and let me tell you he was out and about living la vida good times. By Christmas last year, Stacie had already left her own kids behind in Houston for the holidays, to run off to Orlando to bum around on the beach with Tullian, so they had to have been very close prior to then. That means he has been in Stacie have been living in blissland for at least close to a year now. This is NOT a man who is clinically depressed. So far from that.
Daisy, I want you to know that I would never, ever write about someone potentially using their suicidal thoughts as a ploy to deflect questions and beat up any would be critics, unless I was certain they were in no danger mental health wise. I am also confident in my knowledge of how that whole Fallen Celebrity Pastor reboot machine works. Lawrence Swicegood is an expert at this and I have had years of watching that snake oil salesman spin things to the press. The fact that the suicide story was nowhere in the original March 2016 draft, then suddenly added in September 2016 as the HEADLINE only after the second scandal broke, has the DeMoss/Swicegood markers all over it. Just like Driscoll upping the ante with his hysterical blindness. They did this to make people back off, and that alone is why we should not.
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LT, I have a friend who goes to gateway so I listen to all of this with alarm!
Daisy, I work in mental health and would never make fun of suicidality, what i find interesting is that Tullians story keeps publicly evolving every six months as he tries to relaunch his career and get out of trouble again…
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” When it comes to discussing Gateway I think GW actions must seem so absurd to most normal people that they may tend to believe it’s a fabrication, exaggeration or a misunderstanding.”
Oh. My. let me say this was my biggest problem. No one would believe me. I knew it and they knew it….chillingly enough. And I was right.
You cannot have a soul and stay on staff at these places although I have a lot of empathy for staffers with a family and mortgage. If they have a conscious, they should have an exit strategy.
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“Nothing could be further from the truth. Just like Willow Creek and Saddleback used to set the tone for the Christian mega world a decade ago, Gateway and Hillsong have completely taken over that role now.”
I totally get this. I come from the former. I saw it up close and personal and took a huge hit when I could no longer be involved in the seeker mega world of consumer Jesus. They did not come off authoritarian to the pew sitters paying for it all but their staffs were run like mini North Koreas. But one there doesn’t see it at first because the deception and evil is done with smiles and behind closed doors on a need to know basis. Staff People literally would disappear. They were called the “non cake” people in whispers. I tracked some of them down when I got out and even then they were afraid to talk.
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‘Stacie may have enough wealthy contacts in Houston that Tullian can stay totally independent”
I have a bit of a working theory about this phenomena. In celebrity Christianity the church is used as a launching pad for branding. It provides the foundation needed to launch the national brand of the pastor. The truth is most of them don’t want to be pastors at all. They want to be speaking on stages to hundreds of thousands. But they have to build a brand first.
There is much more to this but I can see hot head narcissists like Tullian and Driscoll playing the rehab game. I doubt very seriously if Driscoll cares about building another mega church. But he needs a launching pad for his global brand. Churches are also great places for hiding money.
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“Just like Driscoll upping the ante with his hysterical blindness. They did this to make people back off, and that alone is why we should not.”
Narcissist are some of the most dangerous people out there. You might think their latest ploy is too obvious but the next thing you know their new crop of supporters are out with pitchforks to poke anyone daring to question the poor narcissistic victim. Bold liars, they are.
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Lydia
Personally I like this “lydia00.”
And your letting believers in on your “Secret Service” operations
Inside the “Mega’s.”
In Ian Fleming’s James Bond novels and the derived films,
the 00 Section of MI6 is considered the secret service’s elite.
You fit that picture… 😉
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And Lydia
If you would like to change “lydia00”
When you begin to post a comment
Click on the comment box
And – Check below the comment box
There is a place to put your email address
then below that your name.
Sometimes for me those boxes do NOT appear
Sometimes “amoslove” appears with a place that says “/change”
Click on “/change” and see what happens.
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Amos, Hee Hee.
Had not considered that when the meta sphere assigned me the double 0 moniker.
Probably more like Jethro Bodine’s double nought. :o)
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Julie-Anne: This was posted on ex-pastor’s (the above) for less than five minutes and he removed! THERE YOU GO, NOW WE KNOW WHAT HE IS AND HIS FRUIT (or lack thereof)! LOL Greg Atkinson=Can’t handle the truth! SELF-PRESERVATION! We need to look at the Greg Atkinson and his background and anyone else who created ex-pastor’s they all need to be investigated)!
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LOL, Now they have a disclaimer on TT article on ex-pastor’s they’re holding all comments for pre-approval=hostage because THEY CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH! By the way, only read your article and no comments from the people (except, to the tune of GA-only answers to God, revealed doesn’t know his Bible)! Looked at their website founder was Bo Lane (be interesting to research him and all their moderator’s and their early years and them as pastor’s or whatever, Bo says pastor in Oregon, CA, Iowa). Good they got exposed, let’s see what Round Table of Report Church Abuse is going to do! Luke 8:17; Mark 4:22 came to light!
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http://jonathanmerritt.com/meet-jonathan/
IS THIS THE Jonathan Merritt who calls himself a journalist and did do both sides of the story! Just read where you contacted everybody, YOU GO GIRL AND GET THE TRUTH! If, this is him (this hack wrote 30 Ghostbooks, some famous writer exposed that Christians books that you read might be written by another author and you’re thinking your reading their book; he looks like a new age writer, selling to the masses)! If, this is him he’s not a journalist because he didn’t do both sides of the Story (there’s news and then there is Journalism; he’s selling his propaganda)! Oh, he got all these awards and accolades and degrees (men die by degrees)! Another dead young man walking=the walking dead!
Let’s get group together (army) and go protest TT and this hack and ex-pastors!
Example: Big Name, you buy their book giving them $ and it’s written by ghostwriter it’s NOT written under the unction and or the anointing or a man whose fast/prays Leonard Ravenhill/Arthur Katz’s written works are an example of that; we have so few like that!
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” we believe the expastor should, once again, become reintegrated back into ministry”
I don’t believe that a sexually fallen pastor can be restored as a pastor again. One of the qualifications for being a pastor is to be above reproach. (1 Tim 3:2) Because of his sexual sin, the pastor will never again as long as he lives be qualified to be pastor. He is not above reproach. He may be forgiven and he may help in healing those he wounded and become a great Christian. But it doesn’t matter how great of a guy he is, etc, he will not be above reproach. Fifty years later it would still be possible for somebody to point out his adultery…the reproach would still be there.
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Steve Scott,
Yes, it is as simple as that; you are right. Now please go and tell it to those Pharisees and hypocrites. They make me and every other woman sick to the stomach.
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Milling around this ex pastor site and they now have an ‘it’s ok not to be ok’ article in response to the fallout from this. Basically, Tullian is the definition of an ex-pastor, so they say.
They also have a helpful link to a couple of Mark Driscoll videos like ‘god do you hate me’.
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They also have an article on how to help an ex-pastors wife, and about half the things are clean her house, do her yard, give her money, etc…
Just for the record, I am nothing to do with a pastor and anyone who wants to do all that for me is welcome. No wonder these folks get an entitlement mentality if the church people are always doing all their work for them.
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THOT, the book Pagan Christianity has information in it that every church ‘going’ Christian needs to take on board.
When I read it, my brain couldn’t cope with the facts.
I realised that the Sunday religious institutions called ‘churches’ were not the same church (singular) that Jesus is building.
This is mind blowing stuff.
Christendom has no foundation in Jesus Christ.
Jesus warned, “false teachers will come in my name saying I am the Christ”.
Now, any person who claims to be one of his… I’m wary of. After a bit of talk I soon learn whether or not they a) love Jesus or b) love Christianity
There is a big difference between loving the Bible and loving the Lord written about it in.
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T-W-W blog did a similar post on this topic earlier today or last night, for any who may be interested:
_It’s Clergy Sex Abuse; Not an Affair!_
Ed is on that thread making some of the same arguments there that he did on this blog.
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I wonder if Ed’s feelings on that subject have anything to do with the fact that his wife cheated on him? Methinks he’s letting his bitterness get the better of his good sense. 😦
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Interesting article about narcissistic ‘apologies’ at graceformyheart blog. This reminds me so much of Tullian (also my ex):
https://graceformyheart.wordpress.com/2014/04/25/narcissistic-apologies-2/
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Something I find interesting and possibly connected to this well done article is what I found on another blog: http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/yes-chuck-smith-had-an-affair/#comments. Let me explain. Tchividjian was also a Calvary Chapel Pastor whose church was not far from Bob Coy’s. Both of these men, who committed pastoral sexual abuse upon so many and lacked one of the basic fruits of the spirit–self control, sat under a man whose own adultery was covered up for nearly 40 years–Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith was widely known for returning adulterating pastors to the pulpit propped up by the misuse of this verse, “Do Not Touch God’s Anointed.” The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association also has a CC pastor on it. It is an incestuous relationship at best. Such corrupt alliances almost ensure that pastoral evil will be covered up or re-named to keep the appearance of respectability. This is how they dupe people into giving them their money. Little do people know the amount of contempt that so many ministries hold for their donors. It would be better to keep your money and help those in need around you. At least you know where your dollars are going.
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Something I find interesting and possibly connected to this well done article is what I found on another blog: http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/yes-chuck-smith-had-an-affair/#comments. Let me explain. Tchividjian was also a Calvary Chapel Pastor whose church was not far from Bob Coy’s. Both of these men, who committed pastoral sexual abuse upon so many and lacked one of the basic fruits of the spirit–self control, sat under a man whose own adultery was covered up for nearly 40 years–Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith was widely known for returning adulterating pastors to the pulpit propped up by the misuse of this verse, “Do Not Touch God’s Anointed.” The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association also has a CC pastor on it. It is an incestuous relationship at best. Such corrupt alliances almost ensure that pastoral evil will be covered up or re-named to keep the appearance of respectability. They dupe people into giving them their money through their false reputation. Little do people know the amount of contempt that so many ministries really hold for their donors. It would be better to keep your money and help those in need around you. At least you know where your dollars are going.
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Carmen said,
I wasn’t aware of that.
Even if I saw him post about that on a previous thread, it totally escaped my mind.
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@ huldahsokay.
Very interesting information. Thanks for sharing that.
Boy Coy was another preacher I used to watch on TV several years ago, and he seemed like a genuinely nice, upstanding kind of guy. I never would’ve suspected him of cheating on his wife.
I have vague memories of Coy’s weekly TV show doing a spot or two about his testimony, how he used to be a drug addict or something, but he “met Jesus” and presto! bingo! his life was changed over night, no more drugs and so on.
It bugs me when Christian celebrities do testimonies like that, how their life totally turned around and became all godly, only for several years later, to find out that they were serial cheaters later on (or involved in some other kind of on-going, pretty serious sin).
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Ha ha, I just realized I typed “Boy Coy” above.
I meant BOB Coy, not “Boy.”
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Carmen said,
“I wonder if Ed’s feelings on that subject have anything to do with the fact that his wife cheated on him? Methinks he’s letting his bitterness get the better of his good sense. :(”
And Daisy repeated it in support.
What a horrible thing to say!
This is a perfect example of what people do when they have lost the debate, they leave the debate, and go personal.
Julie Anne, why do you allow this?
Look –
I wonder if Carmen and Daisy’s “feelings” (not facts or beliefs but “feelings”) on the subject have anything to do with the fact of their frustration with their marital status? Methinks they are letting their bitterness get the better of their good sense. 😦
If you correct me… then correct them.
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I think there is no such thing as a ‘celebrity pastor’.
A pastor shepherds, tends the needs of a local congregation. He is unlikely to become well-known outside that particular local area.
Some do have ministries that make them well-known – for instance Paul wrote With him we are sending the brother who is famous among all the churches for his preaching of the gospel, but in this case a trans-local preaching ministry is involved, rather than pastoring. I’m sure everyone can think of famous teachers who have greatly helped them in their Christian walk, although they are no substitute for teachers in the local congregation. Who hasn’t heard of Wesley or Spurgeon.
If and when a pastor succumbs to becoming a celebrity, the pastoring of ordinary people gives way to fame, fortune (you cannot serve God and mammon/riches), churning out books and DVD’s. They get increasingly out of touch with ordinary, bog-standard believers and their concerns. Increasingly unapproachable. Increasingly immune to legitimate criticism. A constituency, power-base and status to defend. (This is probably where TT is at the moment.)
Celebrity pastor is a contradiction in terms. You can either be one or the other.
The only qualification I would make is that because someone does become famous in the churches this does not automatically mean he has sought to become a celebrity, but is someone who is good at building up and encouraging large numbers of Christians at the same time or over a large area.
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“wonder if Ed’s feelings on that subject have anything to do with the fact that his wife cheated on him? Methinks he’s letting his bitterness get the better of his good sense. ”
I would think twice before going down this road. People do this to all sorts of victims all the time. It is unnecessary and cruel. Victims are often accused of being irrational and bitter and their views dismissed. Please don’t play into this stereotype. Just disagree with Ed and make your argument as to why.
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Yes, It is also minimizing. People can be wrong without it being because they are emotional or too tied to an issue. Sometimes they are just wrong.
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Who was it who invented the term “America’s pastor?” And to whom did this title apply too?
I believe it was Billy Graham. And I disagree wholeheartedly with those who deny the fact that we DO have celebrity preachers within the western religious industrial complex. To deny, would be a lie.
Upon entering the narthex of my last abusive church, the special “church ladies” bombarded me with their version of famous celebrity preacher men that I was supposed to listen to/support financially by purchasing their books, cd’s, dvd’s, lavish/extravagant conferences, as well as finance “their” ministries.
KAS, for your reading pleasure, here are a few, no quite a few, wolves in sheep’s clothing that I was to support in order to fit in with the status quo at that church business: Wolf list: Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Joseph Prince, Beth Moore, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, Mark Batterson, Larry Huck, Mike Murdock, Todd Bentley, Andrew Womack, Paula White, Mark Driscol, Mike Bickle (IHOP fame), Ron Luce (Teen Mania fame), and many, many others.
The “prayer chain” church lady “so graciously” gave me a book from Larry Huck with that proud, haughty look on her face; the one that is molded into the faces of those who highly esteem themselves as more spiritual in the realm of knowing our LORD better than anyone else. Another special church lady invited me to their women’s Bible study, of course I had to purchase Joyce Meyer’s so called book to do so, for the Bible wasn’t enough…..they needed ‘Joyce’ to tell them how to interpret the Bible. Bleh! Then there was the special prayer chain lady’s husband, who was an important ‘elder’ within this Baptist church, that came into our Sunday School class and scolded me for having the class open up their Bibles to study the Book of Acts. We were reading Scripture upon Scripture, the stoning of Stephen by the religious elitists of his day…..great man, that Stephen, trusted in our LORD instead of celebrity preacher men of his day. According to this special elder man, we were supposed to be studying the ‘book’ that the church purchased for big money by another wolf in sheep’s clothing. That elder man was ANGRY that we weren’t using another man’s written book for profit, but the BIBLE! Go figure!
And for the record, not one single person within that religious system pointed me or anyone else to our Bibles, God’s written Word given unto us by the power of the Holy Spirit. No, not a single person. Instead, the ‘in place of Christ’ spirit was alive and well in pointing us to the wares of the ‘celebrity preacher/teacher men and women’ of our day all the while Jesus stood outside of the door, waiting patiently to come into the hearts and minds of people who cast Him aside.
The big money we spend on big name, ie., celebrity preachers, is ridiculous and personally, there are volumes of people within our own communities who are struggling that need our help in paying their bills, help with watching their children, help with sharing their burdens so to speak in fulfilling God’s command of loving our neighbors. The struggling neighbor down the gravel road is much more in need, much more appreciative, and much more open to the Gospel and hearing about Jesus, than a trumped up pastor man who thinks he knows a god/a jesus better than the rest of us! And Jesus didn’t choose too many celebrity/highly educated men to be His disciples/Apostles either….with the exception of Saul/highly educated man who put Christians to death until Jesus humbled him on the Damascus road. Seems the highly educated within the realm of visible religion(pseudo Christianity) puts people to death, instead of giving them life in the Spirit of our LORD!
Oh, that Saul/Paul, was he ever humbled…and by Jesus, Himself, no less!
Sorry this is so long. One thing is for sure in my life as a born again Christian and that is this: I am now free of the religious industrial complex by the power of the Holy Spirit, in pointing me to Jesus in all things. I no longer experience guilt by not purchasing the religious tokens of our day or attending big name (celebrity) conferences for big bucks. I no longer experience guilt by pointing people to Jesus, encouraging them to read, study and meditate upon the Bible for themselves, and asking God, the Holy Spirit, to help reveal His truth/truths to them. God, alone, has that power! And I no longer experience guilt within the depths of my soul, for not worshiping a pastor man or woman who claims to have authority over my life, who claims to hear a god more than I do, and who claims to know a jesus figure better than I do……been there, done that, and almost died spiritually speaking.
I am reminded always, always, always by one of the most popular Psalms quoted today, “THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD, I SHALL NOT WANT.” There we have if folks, Jesus is our Shepherd and none can compare. No, not one single human being can compare, therefore, I shall not want any other pastor man or woman taking the place in my heart, mind, and soul, that belongs only to Jesus, the Christ.
Oh, what a Savior we have!
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Bravo, Katy! Well Said!
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