What is it like for a single woman over 50 at church? “Rejection is a deep wound.”

Single women, church, rejection, alone, SINK

 

A comment from “Love” came in on an older post and I didn’t want it to get lost in the shuffle. This woman’s voice probably represents many women who are experiencing similar thoughts and feelings.

6096758500_465ceaa962 single women in church

I wonder if I am the only Christian single, childless, 50-something, woman in the whole world who is not really focused on finding a man to marry. I can relate to other single women who have been made to feel like they have no place of significance in the church. I’ve even being asked not to attend a church that I poured my heart and soul into because the pastor thought “single women are a scourge on the church.”

I am involved in a much more loving church now, but I still feel somewhat isolated not only for being a SINK, but also for being older. Many contemporary churches don’t seem to have a place for older people, especially the very old. There are only a handful of people my age or older (all married), in a large church of 20-30 year olds. I do love the worship services, and take part in women’s bible studies and service projects (because they pretty much have to talk to me then 🙂, but any of the church social activities are just too emotionally painful.  Rejection is a deep wound.


Love’s words show incredible pain: “no place of significance,” isolated, rejection.

She also described spiritual abuse by a pastor who labeled single women as a “scourge on the church.” This makes me sick. That certainly was not a healthy place for anyone!

How can the church do better in this area? Are there any singles over 50 who have some thoughts or ideas to share?

336 comments on “What is it like for a single woman over 50 at church? “Rejection is a deep wound.”

  1. Indeed. ‘Cute but not TOO SEXY’..

    It’s so inconceivable to me that many women pay large sums of money for a breats augmentation operation.. when most guys obviously prefer the ‘small and perky’ type. This seems to be the dream wife for many men, err, little boys 😉
    It does take a real man (comfortable in his own skin and identity as a man, created by God) to appreciate a womanly sexy woman. Men at church may like to stare at my natural DD / E size bosom, but they cannot bother to make eye contact or greet me, it is as if they are afraid that I am a porn star or something similar, a questionable woman (no amount of conservative, modest clothing can hide the fact that I am a woman with large breasts) not good enough to build a relationship with.
    (they may fantasize about someone like that, but at the end of the day, choose the ‘nice and safe’..)

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  2. Maybe a “Madonna-Whore” thing? The smaller woman is the ideal wife and they can only desire curvy women brutally. To be fair men aren’t all this way. Often they stay with the Madonna when she gets fuller or even fat.

    I read women prefer ripped men. But only for one night stands and short affairs. For husbands they prefer guys just pudgy enough to look real. Looks are not a deal breaker for me, but I find the latter attractive myself. When I did the online thing I never dated a guy who posted a shirtless pic. That’s my deal breaker.

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  3. I think one good thing about getting a little older is you get more comfortable in your own skin, and you (well, most people) become a little less concerned about what other people think. So people who do prefer a less socially acceptable (in whatever social circle you are in) body type just kind of go with it.

    For husbands they prefer guys just pudgy enough to look real.

    ‘Dad bod’ lol. Maintaining a ‘ripped’ look takes a lot of time and effort for most people. (although I never preferred big muscles, but functional ones).

    I have dated conventionally good looking, tall, well built guys who were sweet but bored me. I would always rather date someone interesting and kind.

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  4. The thing is I am very comfy in my on skin and abody. (not going to go to remove my breasts just so I might have one kind look, lol) That does not, however, erase the longing for love and companionship that God intended to take palce in marriage.
    Injustice, unfair judgements and rejection by those who supposedly are Christian men is emotionally exhausting. (for the most part, I do not ‘go to ‘church’ very often – I am tired of being overlooked and ignored at most church events – but I do long for meaningful fellowship and connections not confined in the buildings.)

    It is very easy to say ‘Oh, what do you care what they think’, and in a way it of course is true. When men look at me as if I am some immoral temptress and treat me accordingly, it takes lots of emotional energy to overcome that constant rejection and stay above it. BAsed on what I hear it is a common issue, a real attitude problem among many Christian men, so ignoring and being silent about it isn’t the best solution either.
    Yes, I know the Lord is my Source and Healer. That does not excuse men’s bad behavior or justify it.

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  5. I don’t know what is ‘pugdy enough to look real’, as I like a man to look fit and healthy. No need to be a super athlete or ‘ripped’, but extra weight does no good to either gender (health wise or aesthetically) To each their own, but for me the person is always a whole package, his looks, personality, how he carries himself etc…
    It always baffles me when/if people say ‘I find such and such attractive, but I wnat to marry something else instead’.. this secular dichotomy that ‘f***able vs good for marriage’.. So so wrong and so against God’s design for sexuality.

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  6. I’m glad that you are confident with yourself, NG, and I certainly never meant that would replace any desire for companionship!

    I have not been clear. What I mean is that my experience is that young people are far too concerned about what others might think of their girlfriend/bf. Younger men might shun women who are not whatever their social group thinks is best, whether that is exceedingly thin, curvy/not-curvy, a little overweight, a cheerleader, extra modest, or what have you. It is my experience that people are much more likely to just go with what they prefer when they get a little older, without regard for what others think. Maybe that hasn’t been yours.

    When men look at me as if I am some immoral temptress and treat me accordingly

    I can’t speak to a particular Christian expectation beyond about 7th grade because I went to public high school/college and really didn’t date at church. But I was not one of the super popular girls either so I guess I was relating more on that level?

    This sounds more like dumb purity culture stuff, which is exhausting and I’m sorry. I’m wondering if you wouldn’t have better luck outside this culture.

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  7. It always baffles me when/if people say ‘I find such and such attractive, but I wnat to marry something else instead’

    I don’t think people actually really think this way, at least women. I think the ‘dad bod’ thing is kind of silly, but mostly a reflection of the fact that people get a little older, get married and put on happy weight, don’t have as much time to workout, etc.

    But also as far as the ‘ripped’ thing, I think a lot of men seem to think women like body builder types and that’s just not accurate for everyone. Fit and healthy doesn’t mean jacked, you know? It could be a runner, hiking enthusiast, swimming, etc, and they all have different body types.

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  8. Lea: Thankfully, I am not and have never been in any ‘purity culture (I have witnessed many other unhealthy and even cultish influences yes, but the American type of purity culture was total news to me when I first started to read about it)

    Ironically, I come from a very liberal society in Northern Europe, where women have had the right to vote since 1906, and the legislation is very egalitarian, compared to many other societies. That however has not succeeded in creating harssment free enviroment or a paradise for women – there are still many sexist attitudes towards women, in churches and elsewhere. One would think that a liberal society would be ideal to foster safe communities where men and women can build friendships based on respect and kindness – but no, that isn’t exactly the case.
    We even have female pastors fully accepted in most denominations (including Pentecostal) and even those groups where women are excluded from leadership positions, women are not expected to stay away from careers, politics and other areas of the society..

    Many men tend to be shy to the point of being sulky and brooding (that stereotype is the endless butt of jokes here) and the church is the ripe with guys who avoid women and cannot relate to them (or, if they are players, tend to fool around with all single girls, suck out all available emotional nourishment and leave them all hanging..).. and sadly, bachelor pastors can be the worst of these. Cold and distant!
    Perhaps they try to overcome their sexual urges / temptations by being aloof and avoiding ‘wrong type’ of women. (and to be fair, there are women in churches who have had multiple partners, several divorces and are hunting for new husbands.. they usually find what they look for.. )

    It’s amazing that in some countries where the society in general was very conservative, one could find very warm, respectful relationships happening in church / ministry settings, they were totally counter-cultural and probably took lots of effort. But they were really beautiful, and I met several brothers (married and single alike) who treated me with kindness and respect, included me in their families, ministry etc… I really miss those kinds of connections here.
    The funny thing is, some of the kindest men I have encountered in the past few years have been monks / wannabe monks, from both Roman Catholic and the Eastern tradition.. Obviously those men had learned to treat women as sisters in Christ and were not intimidated.

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  9. “…some of the kindest men I have encountered in the past few years have been monks/wannabe monks….”

    Have you ever read The Cloister Walk by Norris? Great book about Catholic orders in particular and celibacy in general. Unlike “sweet Christian” romance novels this made my celibate life feel more bearable.

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  10. Many men tend to be shy to the point of being sulky and brooding (that stereotype is the endless butt of jokes here) and the church is the ripe with guys who avoid women and cannot relate to them

    Ah, interesting. Different dynamic maybe than I was thinking? Do you not find that older guys change and get less shy, or is it pretty much the same?

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  11. The angry, sulky, broody type seems common among young millennial men. A lot decry feminism and “women who aren’t real women.” There are some blue-haired man-hating loons under 30. Have these sulky incels tried dating one of the nicer girls?

    The blue-haired third wave feminists scare me too. No way would I drink coffee with one of those rabid freaks. If they find out you’re right of Chairman Mao they scream insanely and punch you. Since they think you’re a Nazi.

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  12. Response to Rachel Nichols

    I’m very similar to you in some ways, and I’ve had some of the same, or similar, experiences as to you (such as meeting perverted men on dating sites, even self proclaimed “Christian” men – some of them act like perverts).

    I am certainly sympathetic to your plight, as I’ve been there myself.

    I am sorry for your negative experiences with men and with dating.

    Having said that, I am in disagreement with you on a point or two. I may do a separate post to address another point.

    I at first was not going to say anything about this, until I saw a post where you commented in a similar fashion for a third post.

    Rachel Nichols said (scattered over a few posts, about three of them – bold type emphasis added by me below),

    [from one post by RN],
    …To be fair men aren’t all this way…

    [from another post by RN in this thread],
    ..Tried “internet dating” and it made me nauseated. Just a cheap alternative to prostitution. Not a man hater, just a date hater….

    [from yet another post by RN in this thread],
    ….The blue-haired third wave feminists scare me too. No way would I drink coffee with one of those rabid freaks.

    With all due respect, Rachel, I’ve noticed that you tend to associate almost any criticism (or strong criticism) of men in general terms, or with women discussing sexism by men against women, with misandry, which I believe is mistaken.

    You like to word your posts in such a way so as you don’t give a perception to anyone that you hate all men.

    It is possible for a woman to do things such as…
    -be opposed to sexism against women by men,
    -to notice and comment on how sexist our nation and other nations are,
    -to notice generalities in (many) men’s behavior or attitudes, and to critique those behaviors and attitudes,
    – and to even express anger or frustration over those attitudes and behaviors
    without being a misandrist (a hater of men).

    I can get angered and exasperated by sexism against women by men. And that’s perfectly okay.
    I don’t have to walk on eggshells and constantly say “Not all men” every time I post such a critique.

    I have never said that I hate all men (I do not), that all men are bad (I don’t believe they are), or that all men are sexists, or that all men are rapists (I don’t believe they are).

    So, I sometimes speak out against sexism, both the secular variety and the sexism taught in some Christian circles (called “complementarianism”), both here and on my own blog. And none of that makes me a man-hater.

    I’d still like to marry (a man) eventually, if I can find the right person.
    (If I hated men, I obviously would not want to marry one.)

    I occasionally have blogged about WOMEN who are sexist.
    There are some women – including women who claim to be feminist and/or conservative – who sound sexist (because they are).

    Such women claim they are only reacting to extremes in liberal feminist thinking, but they actually sound no more protective of women than women-hating “Incels” or “Men’s Rights Activists.”

    (The anti-liberal-feminist women writers sometimes actually repeat the very same sexist arguments about women raised by male sexists in their articles and television appearances on news programs.)

    I’ve actually experienced more fall-outs and heated debates with women online than I have with most men.

    I’ve mentioned before (on this blog and others) that I’ve had fall outs or heated fights with…
    -Three (well, actually five) other women from another blog and/or this blog,
    -I had a lady boss on one job who I hated because she harassed me consistently,
    – I’ve brought up my online, hostile, nasty woman friend who stabbed me in the back after she used me, which left me very hurt and angry,

    and I’ve mentioned numerous times on these blogs that
    – I’ve dealt for years with a verbally abusive big sister, going back to my youth.

    Some of the only men I’ve had huge, heated arguments with are the men who sit around on Twitter, this blog, or the other blog, who defend sexism (under the complementarian label) and who say things like male rule of women, and so on, is perfectly okay, because God supposedly ordained sexism, and sexism, they argue, is beneficial for women.

    When I notice that there are sexist trends in culture, or I see someone or something that is sexist, I speak out against it. Speaking out against sexism or sexist men does not make me a misandrist, irrational, or a harpy.

    One thing I can tell you as someone who is NOT a liberal, NOT a feminist, but who is a conservative who rails against sexism (and who generally supports the “MeToo” movement), is that many conservatives do in fact remain very blind to how pervasive sexism against women by men is…

    Many conservatives remain appalling ignorant, remain blind – or un-willing to even see or consider – how there are double standards in place against women who are sexually harassed or assaulted by men.

    Me getting upset by any of this stuff and discussing it (or fuming about it) doesn’t make me a misandrist, a rabid nut, a flake, or a third- or- fourth wave feminist.

    (Matter of fact, another poster here who identifies as a feminist herself got very angry at me a few months back for refusing to wear the “feminist” label.)

    Anyway, it is okay for women to speak out against troubling patterns they see in men’s behavior against women.
    Doing so doesn’t make a woman a man-hater or against “due process,” nor does it make such a woman a feminist.

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  13. Rachel Nichols said,

    Not all divorces come from abuse. Some do.

    But two men close to me–my uncle and my youth minister had cheating wives who left simply because they weren’t 100% happy and ecstatic all the time. There were no charges of abuse and no evidence.

    Just, “John’s nice, but I’ve fallen out of love with him. He doesn’t give me butterflies in the stomach anymore like Bob does.”

    John probably noticed the marriage was meh and wondered why. Till Barb announced she thought he was boring, was tired of being married to him, and wanted to leave him for Bob. Cause butterflies in the stomach=twu wuv.

    I’m a lot more sympathetic to men or women who are in those sorts of marriages.

    I’m not condoning adultery.

    But I can sort of see or sympathize to a degree with some people who do this.

    I was in a long term serious relationship with a guy I will refer to as “Morris.”

    Morris was very self absorbed. He did not meet any of my needs, not even my emotional ones, which would have been easy to meet.
    And yet, he expected me to meet all his needs all the time.
    I was being taken advantage of. I eventually dumped him.

    I can see how a woman has been married to a man for many years, and he falls into a lazy pattern. A lot of men do this. They think once they have walked down the aisle their “job is done.” They stop trying to woo their sweetie.

    Many men in serious relationships with women, including marriage, tend to get to a point where all they do, when they get home from the job, is sit back in their recliners drinking their Budweisers, never dating the wife any more. That may not bother some women, but that behavior does bother others.

    When a marriage gets to that stage, if the wife tries to bond by talking about her day with the man, or asking the man about his day (and many women try to maintain or achieve emotional closeness in this very manner), the man just stares straight ahead, all glassy eyed, and only occasionally grunts out a “yeah” or “no” answer, which is not a satisfactory response to most women.

    By some point, the woman feels neglected.
    The man she marries doesn’t seem to care if she is even in the house or not. She doesn’t feel wanted, loved, desired. She is hurt and left unfulfilled by this sort of relationship.

    I think especially in situations where the couple marries at age 24, it’s not surprising when the woman wants a divorce when she’s 40 or 50.

    Most people do undergo some changes from their 20s by the time they hit 40. Life experience will and can alter some of your previous assumptions and attitudes about things – about life, marriage, whatever else.

    So, some long time married men will find that their wife at age 40 doesn’t want the same things from him or from their marriage that she once wanted when they were 20-somethings.

    And they find they cannot come to a compromise or agreement.

    Maybe the man does not want to make changes and refuses to, or he cannot change, because there is something about his personality that the wife can no longer put up with, like she used to do.

    So what then, should the wife just repress her wants and needs and who she has turned into now, just to keep a marriage together?

    Sometimes people just grow apart. The love fades. Their marriage ends up more like platonic roomies than lovers- who- also- happen- to- be- BFFs.

    Now, for some couples, that is fine, because they both realize their marriage and romantic needs have cooled off, and they are THRILLED to live like friends only, because they are more into companionship, than holding hands and having sex.

    But for some couples, one or both may not like that sort of change in the marriage, and one or both don’t want to live like roomies for the remainder of their lives, but would like to move on and find a new romantic partner who is on the same page of their life as they are now.

    I would not be so dismissive of that sort of thing by referring to it as, “Cause butterflies in the stomach=twu wuv”.
    I think that’s a rather unfair or uncharitable way of depicting things.

    I don’t think most women (especially the older ones) who find themselves unhappy in their marriages, feeling unfulfilled, maybe ignored or unappreciated by their husbands, and who are maybe considering divorce, are necessarily reacting as air-headed, selfish, immature, flighty teen-aged girls who are just looking for nothing more than the high school fantasy of the the cutie quarterback with a cool car.

    I don’t think I’d have any interest in staying in a dead or stale marriage myself, where I don’t feel loved or valued by the spouse (nor would I blame men who are in these types of marriages who want to divorce their wives).

    So I’m sure not going to blame women (or the men) who want out.

    Why would you want or expect anyone to stay in a marriage where they feel unloved, not valued, or where it’s become a loveless marriage?

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  14. Another thought about that, from my post right above.

    I’ve seen so many women say on blogs or write letters to advice columnists that they are 40, 50 or whatever years old, have been married for 20 or more years, but they feel all alone with their spouse.

    I had the same sensation when I was engaged to my ex. I remember sitting in the same room with him but having the feeling that I was still all alone.

    I had that issue in my college years. I would show up to social events in spite of my anxiety disorder, only to be ignored. I would go back to my dorm room feel even more alone than I did prior to leaving my dorm room.

    There’s no lonely like feeling lonely in a room filled with other people who don’t notice you, don’t care to get to know you, and/or who notice you are there but take no interest in you.

    It’s better to be regular lonely (sitting in a room by yourself) than to sit in a room with a husband or BF or in a room of 65 people and still feel all alone.

    I’ve seen older women write to other people for advice, say they are 50 years old, they sit by their husband every night, but they feel alone.

    They are lonely, they don’t feel loved or wanted. Their husband takes no interest in them, or their marriage.

    I just feel so incredibly sad for women in that position.
    I don’t expect them to stay in such marriages if they would rather get out and leave. Asking or expecting someone to remain in a marriage that has died is cruel, and asking them to stay, or shaming them into it, is asking them to remain in a form of purgatory.

    You only get one life down here. And you cannot get into a time machine, go back to age X, and remarry a different person.

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  15. As to this (comment by Rachel Nichols):

    John probably noticed the marriage was meh and wondered why. Till Barb announced she thought he was boring, was tired of being married to him, and wanted to leave him for Bob.

    I disagree with this characterization, as at least being implied to cover all to most marriages and their gender dynamics.

    (Your description may be true for some marriages, but I wonder about the recurrence or frequency or with the way you are describing it.)

    My observation has been the opposite.

    Based on my own long term (ex) relationship, talking to women friends stuck in dead end marriages, or in long term relationships, or in reading many anecdotes by divorced women, I have come to these conclusions:

    The vast majority of married men (or long time boyfriends) don’t realize their wife (or long time girlfriend) is unhappy and thinking about divorce (or a break up), even if and when the women repeatedly tell their husbands (or boyfriends) they are unhappy and thinking about divorce / breaking up.

    Most men just do not listen and/or do not care and/or don’t take their wives seriously.

    The wives will spend months or weeks telling the guy, “I’m going to leave if things do not change,” and then when the wifey finally does leave, most of these husbands join the bitter women-hating groups online and swear up and down, “I never saw it coming! She gave me absolutely indication she was thinking about divorce, never.”
    (Even though, there again, the wife told the guy 546,234 times over a period of months or years, “This marriage is no longer working for me. I am thinking about leaving you.”)

    Ooh. As a matter of fact, years ago, there were articles about a politician in – was it Oklahoma, or Utah? I forget – who was so alarmed at the number of his men friends getting divorced who were all whiny cry baby to him,
    “I never saw the divorce coming, I swear!,”
    that the politician was pushing to force women who wanted a divorce in his state to attend mandatory Marriage Classes for X number months, and/or wait X weeks before being legally permitted to divorce.

    Then, of course, there are many studies and articles online about how and why so many American men “tune out” women, especially when women complain to them about their marriage, (or when any woman complains about being sexually harassed by any man to a male family member or husband).

    Some of those very articles, by the way, are written by men (not by harpy third wave feminist man haters) who say things like,
    “Yep, I am a man who gets it now, after years of being blind to this stuff. We men really do tune women out, or we dismiss their concerns as, “You just cannot trust women, because they are emotional and they exaggerate everything.”

    (Lea just posted a link one such editorial a few weeks ago, the one by a guy who said “My wife divorced me over the dirty dishes.” )

    It’s been my observation from having talked to women friends and relatives and reading many articles about divorce and marriage, that most men do not notice if their marriage is failing.

    And if the wife tells them the marriage is not working for her, most of the husbands I’ve heard or read about love the status quote, are satisfied with the marriage as it is (even if it’s not working for their wives), so many husbands won’t get off their butts, do not CARE to get off their butts, and do the necessary change to keep the wife around.

    Then a lot of those spurned men will, incredibly, will go around complaining and yelling about how all women are supposedly ingrates, and these men may join those stupid misogynistic M.R.A. online groups, yell about how most divorces are initiated by women, and claim their wife gave them no prior warning there was going to be a divorce (that’s a big lie, or they are super oblivious).

    Most of these guys I’ve come across, or listened to women friends discuss, accept no responsibility for their role in the end of a relationship with a woman.

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  16. For one thing I know those two men and their exes. You do not. Uncle Ken is happily remarried to a woman who doesn’t feel compelled to whore around for excitement. Yes there can be emotional neglect behind these things, but often the women won’t tell their husbands they are bored or lift a finger to spice up the marriage–except indulging in adultery. And cheating gives many people a thrill because it’s forbidden. (Proverbs 9:17.)

    Women are not 100% pure, sinless, snow white angels who never lie. You seem to acknowledge this when you tell how badly you have been treated by other women. Don’t you think women can treat men horribly too–not just other women? Every time I look in the mirror I see someone dependent on the grace of God for the sins she has committed, the people she has mistreated, and how she continually falls short.

    Misogyny is real; as is misandry. The whackos on the “manosphere” are less of a threat than the feminists on Jezebel since the latter blog under their own names and are lauded by society. The socially respectable evils are the most dangerous.

    The only place misogyny is tolerated in America now is in small conservative subcultures. Sadly wife beating is winked at (if not actively encouraged) in many extreme complementarian churches. This nastiness was started as a reactionary extreme to the prevalent man hating in the world around us.

    Not what Christ wanted of course. He told us to love our enemies–those who actually want to harm us personally. Identity politics says we should exact revenge on those who never harmed us because once upon a time men wouldn’t let women vote or white people usurped ownership over black people.

    I have given up on marriage, etc. and am trying to think of ways to ease my loneliness that don’t involve the farce called online dating. But it’s unjust to blame ONLY men for the mess we are in today.

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  17. Why would you want or expect anyone to stay in a marriage where they feel unloved, not valued, or where it’s become a loveless marriage?

    hi Daisy! I think this is actually a really good question. Sometimes spouses stop caring, stop trying, but they haven’t done any of those ‘biblical checklist’ things…but I’ve read stories that sound like fundamental abandonment.

    It’s kind of like the ‘my spouse left because I never did the dishes’ story. The spouse has done nothing to nurture the relationship, despite pleading on behalf of the other, and then it dies. Relationships are like plants. They need watering and if you neglect it long enough it dies and sometimes nothing will bring it back. I don’t blame people who leave in those cases.

    (cheaters I do blame).

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  18. The whackos on the “manosphere” are less of a threat than the feminists on Jezebel

    I think murder counts by ‘incel’s’, abusers and other such manosphere types would disprove your point on this. Men like this are a physical threat to women in a way women simply are not, by and large, to men. Period.

    I’m not putting ‘women aren’t perfect’ disclaimers on everything, but I date men and mostly know the issues with that. But if you’re talking about a threat? It’s men. Period.

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  19. This nastiness was started as a reactionary extreme to the prevalent man hating in the world around us.

    Rachel, what nastiness was ‘started’ as a reaction to ‘man hating’? Wife beating/murder isn’t new. The only reason women have the rights we have now is because we fought for them, when we set back and let the men folks handle things they handled them to suite themselves. Come on. Don’t accept these excuses for their nastiness!

    If someone becomes ‘nasty’ because someone else said something mean on the internet, or maybe just because they asked for equal rights, they were never a good person to began with.

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  20. I may be getting too bold for myself in saying this. I think that the last postings on here are getting nasty and seem to be “male bashing”. I don’t think that there should be room for something like this on a Christian discussion. Maybe this is why you’re not successful with men. Personally for me my main reason I didn’t like women was because of their attitudes; not because they were not perfect looking. There were lots of nice looking women I met that I wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole because of their attitudes.

    What’s unfair for me is that, lots of times when it comes to postings and blogs about being single, it’s the women that do the postings and not the men. Where are the men on this? Whenever a man posts something negative about women, they get pounced on. When a woman posts bad things about men, they seem to get support.

    I have enjoyed the article and the postings. But lately it’s not enjoyable for me to be reading those posts about men and how bad they are. I don’t find these postings to be edifying. The whole purpose is to, as Christians, is to lift each other up not bring each other down. On top of that, this is about not fitting into church, not about how unsuccessful you are with the opposite gender.

    Let’s stop with this stuff from now on, OK? This is going nowhere.

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  21. I may be getting too bold for myself in saying this. I think that the last postings on here are getting nasty and seem to be “male bashing”.

    If you are addressing a specific comment, address it and make your point. I certainly can’t say what the issue you have is because you’re just being generic, which feels more like a silencing technique than anything to me. I’m willing to discuss anything I’ve said.

    Maybe this is why you’re not successful with men.

    Is this ‘edifying’ Tom? Please. [Also, inaccurate.] Should we speculate about why you are not ‘successful’? That’s being quite rude imo.

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  22. Agree with Daisy that there should be the freedom to openly discuss and share any negative experiences and attitudes we have had from men, any sexist attitudes towards women in churches and any abuse we have experienced from men, without having to emphasize ‘Not All Men…’ We know that there are real, genuine, godly Christian men (the true kind, non-abusive, sincerely living for the Lord and seeking to show His love instead of expecting to be served hand and foot..) Thank God!

    Since we know that and long to fellowship with these kinds of brothers, it is even more disappointing to come in contact with the other types.. the silent, passive (-aggressive), or the flashy, fake abuser, pervert, in all their variations..

    I am sure men have their complaints. I gladly listen to what my single (or married for that matter) brothers in the Lord have encountered. Some have had horrible rejection, for their physically short stature, or some similar stupid reasons.

    I also know cases personally where a true, sincere man was brutally betrayed and abandoned in marriage.. and no, they were no abusive themselves. I’m not excusing any cruel or sinful actions that women might commit.

    However; in all fairness, the most horrific kinds of abuse and emotional cruelty I have witnessed have been male to female. In my own life as well as in many, many women, who just loved the Lord and wanted to serve Him alongside their husband…

    Abandonment just before the wedding day, financial ruin, invitation to meet him in his home country and then gleefully canceling his part(the Lord intervened and redeemed the trip though turning it into a mission trip), etc etc.

    The most common form, and fully accepted in churches, ts this attitude towards single women that seeks to maintain the interest but never commit: showing enough interest to keep her hooked but never make any clear commitment, just for the enjoyment of having her emotionally aroused..
    The same men who complain they have no wife are often (ANd again, of course Not All Men) the ones looking down at any single woman, expecting her to come up with a perfect performance to catch him – and if any girl does show interest, she is brutally labeled as ‘desperate spinster’.. (That is the main reason I do not usually even say ‘Hello’ to any single Christian men.. So many take that as a sign of me trying to seduce them..)

    It is a sad reality. Meanwhile, divorced and single mothers have their support groups and they are included in so many ways.. SIngle women are sidelined and seen as the desperate man-hunters, OR angry arrogant feminists. There is always a label at hand!
    God help all single gals who are stuck in this!

    Liked by 1 person

  23. To quote Lea: “If there is a threat it’s men. Period.”

    Is that what you’re referring to Tom?

    How would Lea like it if some MGTOW said, “If there is a threat it’s women. Period”?

    And remember before you excuse this on how oppressed you are by the “Patriarchy” here’s another quote.

    “If someone gets nasty because someone said something mean on the internet or maybe just asked for equal rights they were never a good person to begin with.”

    Tom has as much right to be treated with basic respect as the rest of us. And honestly I wouldn’t want to date someone calling me a threat and blaming me for all the world’s problems.

    There are some truly evil women I have known personally. We get angry when the “manosphere” blames us for everything bad any woman has ever done. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    Why do you want to date men anyhow if you have such bottomless contempt for them?

    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. A Man said that.

    Like

  24. The last few years have been a real eye-opener regarding abusive marriages (or several kinds)..

    Being with that silent, passive, or passive-aggressive, snarky, arrogant, condescending, emotionally cold, distant, pious ‘Mr Christian’ woukd be the last thing I want. Several single men I have met fall int to this category more or less. That may be the reason they are not married, or, the may be that as a result of their singleness: but, I also hear from many married women that their husbands are / were like that. So, no amount of marital sex and affection can cure someone of his arrogance and false attitudes, unless he is willing. (SOmetimes God has granted this ‘Damascus road moment’ , but it is rather rare..)

    That is why I keep on sating, no matter how heartbreaking it is to be alone an single, the worse alternative would be to live with an arrogant, haughty, distant and emotionally cold fish, ‘Mr Superstar’.. who may be intelligent and witty in many ways, excel academically and in his ministry …
    I have been attracted to a man like that, and also know a friend who had a similar experience with another ‘Man of God’s power for the hour’. It is heartbreaking, all our love, prayers, and desire to see the man blessed was met with cold derision and mocking (it really is almost demonic in nature..) These same men are like angels to children and old grannies, of course!! and, are still single in their later thrities / forties…

    So, I have given any hopes of ever ‘warming up’ any guy with such a cold attitude. Living with him might be like hell, even if he wasn’t physically abusive. There needs to be mutual attraction, enthusiastic and clear expression of interest, commitment and respect – no games, no guessing ‘does he like me or not..’
    Trying to heal a man or to even encourage him to come out of his shell againts his will is a definite No No from now on. One such experience was devastating enough. (on and off for years..)

    Liked by 1 person

  25. How would Lea like it if some MGTOW said, “If there is a threat it’s women. Period”?

    I mean..isn’t that basically what you said? I am clarifying a physical threat, which I think is rather serious, and my comment is backed up with data. I’m really making a counterpoint to yours.

    If that is what Tom is upset about (which…I honestly don’t know because he didn’t clarify before telling everyone to stop talking because we’re making him uncomfortable), then he should say so. But I will never consider the threat of murder not serious.

    Like

  26. And honestly I wouldn’t want to date someone calling me a threat and blaming me for all the world’s problems.

    Rachel, I fear you are not comprehending my comment if you are ‘not all men’ing it! I was discussing, very clearly, MRAs, Incels, Abusers and other such Manosphere ‘types’. There have been several recent murders attributed to these sorts of people, including 3 people at a hospital murdered because someone left their fiancé, 2 women at a yoga studio murdered by men who hated women, the guy in Canada with the van, etc… That is a very specific type of person who is a threat.

    I am not talking about all men, but definitely those.

    My boyfriend is a wonderful lovely, kind and thoughtful person who has nothing to do with the sorts of men are a threat to women. That should be obvious and not need to be said, but now that it has been said hopefully to your satisfaction, can you perhaps rethink your original statement about how much of a threat feminism online compared to the manosphere and how that has nothing to do with men who are not part of these movements that denigrate women on a regular basis??

    Like

  27. Tom: When men and women are sharing their experiences and hurts in this rea, it is very easy for it to escalate into full blown out argument ‘Women V Men’, which is tragic – after all, both suffer from loneliness, Especially in churhces where everything seems to revolve around families…

    There have been some real eye-opening and edifying conversations at some Christian sites where I used to visit. What as great was that there were people from all over the globe, from various countries and different church sub-cultures.
    What I learned was that it is not easy for singles anywhere – even in very family oriented societies like the Philippines, after a certain age finding a spouse becomes more and more difficult. Even the very feminine, sweet, and succesful Philippine girls shared how there were no available bachelors, and those men who were single in their forties and above, had kind of ‘given up’ and no longer even bothered to notice girls.. Although the whole culture tries to actively encourage people to marry.
    So, it is not only in the Western countries, and not only because of ‘man hating feminists’ – very stunning and sweet Asian ladies who worked in ministries and believed in a rather conservative family order, still had a hard time..

    And the same for many guys. It seems that the ‘supply and demand’ chain doesn’t work since churches either had a disproportionately large amount of singöe women, or then the scales tipped to the other extreme. Good thing is, with the internet, people at least can make connection outside their hometown.
    Since the situation is what it is, the general consensus was that when there is no natural ways to meet someone in the local churches, the only way is to ask the Lord to open a door for connections somewhere else.

    As a single woman I would always encourage guys who ask ‘how can I approach a woman in my church / somewhere?’ that BE DiRECT and CLEAR: Ask the Lord to reveal the person He would like you to show kindness to, and He will most gladly do that. The lady may be totally different than expected, longer, shorther, not cute enough / too cute etc…, but showing kindness as a brother always is appreciated – more than some ambiguous flirting or unclear signals. Most women are dying of thirst for some kind words and encouragement from a Christian brother, instead of the usual disapprovement and contempt. ‘Oh no, she is a woman and must be out there to trap me’..

    Like

  28. Quick note here.
    I don’t know how long I can be online right now.

    Re: Rachel Nichols comment that I “don’t know her uncles.”

    (I have not as of yet read her whole post, that was the only part I have seen so far.
    I don’t know if I will have the time and/ or the interest to return to read all posts and/or comment on them today or later or if ever…)

    So, Rachel says I do not know her uncles…

    Well, Rachel, either do you, really.

    You weren’t married to them.

    You do not know what goes on behind closed doors.

    It’s possible that your uncles are good uncles – they probably took you to the circus as a kid and bought you cotton candy and did other nice gestures for you, and so on and so forth.

    That your uncles may have been good uncles to you, their niece, does not necessarily mean they were good husbands to their wives.

    Sometimes men who are abusive (whether it’s physical, financial, sexual, or verbal abuse) or who are consistent jerks to their wives hide their abusive, selfish, controlling, or jerk sides from everyone else but from their abused spouse.

    That is why so many people, even long time co-workers, church members or family members, refuse to believe that “Uncle Joe” could be mean, controlling, or selfish towards “Aunt Sue,” because Joe was always so dang nice and sweet to them personally.

    My ex fiance, for example, was terribly selfish towards me and he financially exploited me, and when I finally told this to his mother when she was off her rocker screaming at me, that cow still defended him.

    This was a case where the person being spoken to did not even question my honesty or my version of events, and yet she STILL sided with her son, because he was her widdle boy, who she wubbed so berry, berry much.

    She didn’t care that he was using me.

    I did not find out until my adult years that one of my aunts was married to a man who was (years ago), asking her to participate in kinky sex acts with a third woman (he wanted “threesomes.” My Aunt said “no.”)

    I had no idea that was going on in her marriage, until I was an adult, and my mother told me about it.

    I had yet another aunt of mine who found out her husband had been seeing prostitutes in his 60s (or older), and he had been seeing those prostitutes to get oral sex.

    That uncle of mine did not seem like the kind of guy who would hire street walkers for sex acts. But he was.

    You simply do not know your uncles as well as you think you do, just because you see one facet of them or their lives.

    And that – the uncle seeing prostitutes for B.J.s – was something he and my aunt were sure as heck not going to share with me, and surely not when I was much younger. (My mother later told me about all this.)

    You sometimes do not have a full picture of what goes in another person’s marriage, Rachel, even when you are related to them.

    Your uncles will only tell you what they want you to know and what they want you to see.

    Anyway, I don’t blame your aunts – or any woman – for divorcing a husband if the marriage has gone stale, where there is no love any more.

    Marriages today are based no longer on financial needs / necessity for a lot of women, or for some women (because women can work and support themselves if need be), but tend to be based on things like compatibility and companionship.

    If the spark has died in the marriage, and your uncles are no longer meeting those women’s needs for emotional support, companionship, and so on, yes, they’re most likely going to want to leave the marriage.

    And that does not make those wives selfish or flighty air heads who are looking for unrealistic “Romance Novel” type marriages where there is non-stop bodice-ripping excitement.

    I don’t expect any woman (or man) to stay in a dead, loveless marriage, just to suit your ideals of what you think marriage “should” be.

    Sometimes life gets messy and does not work out the way we expect or want, and that includes marriage.

    It’s really easy for you to sit in judgement of people as to why or if they divorce their spouse when you’re not the one who was in the marriage having to put up with whatever they were enduring and found unbearable.

    Like

  29. (part 1)
    Okay, I just skimmed this by Lea to Rachel

    Rachel, I fear you are not comprehending my comment if you are ‘not all men’ing it!

    I was discussing, very clearly, MRAs, Incels, Abusers and other such Manosphere ‘types’.

    There have been several recent murders attributed to these sorts of people, including 3 people at a hospital murdered because someone left their fiancé, 2 women at a yoga studio murdered by men who hated women, the guy in Canada with the van, etc…

    That is a very specific type of person who is a threat.

    I am not talking about all men, but definitely those.

    My boyfriend is a wonderful lovely, kind and thoughtful person who has nothing to do with the sorts of men are a threat to women.

    That should be obvious and not need to be said, but now that it has been said hopefully to your satisfaction, can you perhaps rethink your original statement about how much of a threat feminism online compared to the manosphere and how that has nothing to do with men who are not part of these movements that denigrate women on a regular basis??

    Lea, Rachel has a habit of conflating any and all legitimate grievances any woman (or women as a group) have with men as being misandry.

    It is dishonest for anyone to write off any and all discussion of male- on- female sexism as automatically being due to misandry (man-hating) or due to militant feminism.
    But that is what she does.

    So far as Rachel conflating any woman (or group of women) who voice legitimate criticism of men generally as being nothing but an expression of “third or fourth wave, man-hating, bra-burning feminism…”

    …(really? There can be no other reasons why Non-Feminist women don’t notice or get upset by male-on-female sexism?? -insert eye roll here-)…

    I’ve seen Rachel do that on this blog, she did it on my Daisy blog about a year ago


    (where she stormed off under a perfectly reasonable post I had made about sexism, saying she would un-follow my blog, because she perceived my critique of how Republicans were mishandling the ‘MeToo’ movement, and sexual assault allegations, as being “man-hating”…),

    And, as we sometimes visit the same blogs, I’ve seen her leave similar comments on other blogs about or to other women (blogs I periodically lurk at but do not post to).

    I’m a life long conservative.
    I’ve never been a feminist, nor do I go by that label, which I have said here and on my blog.

    Yet, Rachel categorizes any and all instances of a woman pointing out sexism by men against women as being misandry, or as being motivated by militant feminism
    –(and in her view, apparently, ALL feminism is “militant.”)

    Or, if you are a woman mentioning terrible behavior by men against women (such as patterns of male behavior against women you notice in all the “Me Too” reporting, for example), she will lump you in with all feminists, and she assumes you hate all men.

    Well, I don’t hate all (or even most) men, and I’ve never been a feminist.

    Do I hate male-on-female sexism? Yes.
    Is there such a thing as male-on-female sexism? Yes, there is.
    Is male-on-female sexism systemic in our nation, in employment, dating, marriages, and every facet of life just about? Yes.

    Are a lot of men (and women) blind to sexism and deny how rampant it is? Yep.

    Do I notice male- on- female sexism quite a bit, and do I notice how entrenched it is in American (and other) culture and speak out forcefully against it? Yes, yes I do.

    And I blog about it.
    None of that means I hate all men or support extreme feminism (or even necessarily the moderate variety).

    Rachel doesn’t realize that not all feminists are identical.

    But she seems to assume that all feminists are harpies who are all man-haters. But they are not.

    Rachel likes to pull “Not All Men” but will hesitate to declare “Not All Feminists.”

    A lot of “feminist-haters” tend to buy into conservative stereotypes about feminists.

    Speaking of which, a side note.

    I think Rachel follows, and/or agrees with, a conservative evangelical Vlogger who calls herself “Activist Mommy”?

    I’m a conservative, but I freely concede that some people with conservative views, such as “Activist Mommy,” are way, way far out there and are absolute crack-pots.

    I don’t think anyone should be getting all or most of their information or opinion formation via Wing Nuts such as “Activist Mommy.”

    This doesn’t mean, however, I am saying that Activist Mommy is wrong on everything.

    As I say about liberal feminists, “even broken clocks are right twice a day.” I apply that to Activist Mommy, too.

    I’ve actually spent time talking with feminists online, or, lurking at their sites, trying to understand their views.

    What I have found (as a right wing person) is that other right wing people (especially conservative television or radio hosts) either woefully misunderstand liberal / secular feminists, or they misrepresent them and their views.

    Many feminists I’ve come into contact with online, are married to men (they love their husbands), and many of them have children, too. So they are not man-hating, children-hating shrews, as Rachel assumes them all to be.

    I’ve written posts on my Daisy blog about some of these subjects, such as
    (some of are by me, some are excerpted by other writers):

    _Let’s Say Good-Bye To The Straw-Feminist by Cordelia Fine_

    _Complementarian Misrepresentations and Misunderstandings of Non-Comps and of Feminism_

    I sure as heck do not agree with all feminists all the time, but every so often, I read their articles and editorials and agree with them totally, or partially, on one topic or another.

    I have found that some of their points are correct.

    None of that makes me a man-hating, bra-burning, third or fourth wave feminist.

    I at least try to sincerely understand what the liberal feminists are thinking and saying (and by visiting their OWN sites, not hearing about them via second hand, distorted reports by Rush Limbaugh, Tucker Carlson, Activist Mommy, or Laura Ingraham).

    I don’t automatically write secular feminists all off from the out-set.

    But that doesn’t mean I uncritically accept all their views, either, because I still find myself disagreeing with some of their beliefs.

    I also sometimes read studies about sexism, sexual assault, and sexual harassment – Some of those studies seem to be conducted by neutral parties, not by “man hating feminists” who have an agenda to beat up on men.

    And those studies very often back-up what feminists (and non-feminist women) have said about male-on-female sexism in our culture.

    I am really, really tired of having any and all criticism of men as a group, no matter how valid it is, chalked up to “feminism” or to “man hating,” by Rachel and by people like her (she’s not the only one who does this), because it’s simply not true.

    (Continued in part 2)

    Like

  30. (Reply to Lea’s post, part 2)

    Rachel N. also seems to have a problem with women showing anger. This has come up on other blogs where I’ve blogged.
    She’s sort of done this with me, and I’ve seen her do this to other women online on other sites.

    I don’t know if Rachel buys into gender stereotypes that declare if a woman shows anger, that it is unfeminine and therefore wrong for women to do so-
    Or, if she thinks women such as me who are infuriated by male- on- female sexism should be fine and dandy with sexism against women, and wear a fake smile instead, and stop talking about it -?

    There have been occasions where I am not feeling the least bit of anger when talking about, or critiquing, male-on-female sexism on a blog (on my own, or on another’s blog),
    but she reads any sort of critique in this area, or related ones, as being “anger,” (when she’s not accusing the woman in question of being a man-hating feminist.)

    Even if there is zero anger going on, if anger did not motivate the post I wrote, or if I was not feeling anger as I was typing out a post, she will say I “sound angry.”
    And then she usually takes a pitying attitude towards me, or to the woman she’s talking to.

    However, I think it is good and right for anyone to feel anger over injustice, whether it’s over sexism or something else (such as racism or child molesting).

    I am a recovering codependent and ex-complementarian.
    I was raised with this attitude by my parents, and from complementarian churches I was raised in, that girls and women should never, ever show anger.

    I was taught that only men can and should show anger, but not girls and women.
    We women, I was taught, should only always be smiling, agreeable, and accommodating, even if and when someone was abusing me or being mean, nasty, or rude.

    That is a very unhealthy way to live life.
    I finally realized a few years ago that it’s not wrong, ungodly, or unfeminine for a girl or a woman to get angry, feel anger, and to express it.
    I guess Rachel is not at that point in her life where she has realized that.

    But again, that’s not to say I am always angry when I type a post or reply to someone, but if I do so, that’s okay.

    It’s okay for women to feel anger and to express it.

    I am usually not angry, actually.
    I might be annoyed by another poster, but annoyance or frustration is not the same thing as anger.

    I don’t remember Rachel telling me on this site in this thread I sound angry, but she’s done this to me on other sites and to other women.
    If she continues replying here, I won’t be surprised if I get that “you sound angry, I feel sorry for you” comment, even if I’m not feeling angry.

    But so where if I were?
    Why are self professing Christians so hung up on regulating other people’s emotional reactions, or why do they want to shame people for having emotions and expressing them openly?

    Like

  31. Above, I was just saying this to Rachel Nichols:

    So, Rachel says I do not know her uncles…

    Well, Rachel, [n]either do you, really.

    You weren’t married to them.

    You do not know what goes on behind closed doors.

    Sometimes even women married to men don’t really know them – they think they do, but they really don’t.

    The women married to the serial killers mentioned in this article below had no idea they married serial killers.

    A few of these women have even said in other articles that that their husbands were nice guys, great family men, were “gentle,” and “caring.” Some (many) held steady jobs.

    There was nothing suspicious about their behavior, many of the wives said.

    Some of these women even had children – biological children!! – with these killers.

    _Five Women Who Unknowingly Married Serial Killers_

    <

    blockquote>Serial killers are master manipulators and experts at hiding in plain sight, and many have the ability to live double lives for years without getting caught.

    Some even settle down with partners and have children, all while continuing to commit unspeakable crimes under the facade of having a “normal” family.

    Usually, the people who end up marrying serial killers have no idea they’re sleeping next to monsters, and their partners’ sadistic behavior can go completely unnoticed. Even for many of the wives of history’s grisliest murderers, their husbands’ arrests came as a total shock.

    <

    blockquote> Your family members or coworkers could be living double lives. Some of these guys fooled wives, siblings, and coworkers for years and years.

    Their gig was only up when the police figured out who they were and arrested them for their crimes.

    Like

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