What is it like for a single woman over 50 at church? “Rejection is a deep wound.”

Single women, church, rejection, alone, SINK

 

A comment from “Love” came in on an older post and I didn’t want it to get lost in the shuffle. This woman’s voice probably represents many women who are experiencing similar thoughts and feelings.

6096758500_465ceaa962 single women in church

I wonder if I am the only Christian single, childless, 50-something, woman in the whole world who is not really focused on finding a man to marry. I can relate to other single women who have been made to feel like they have no place of significance in the church. I’ve even being asked not to attend a church that I poured my heart and soul into because the pastor thought “single women are a scourge on the church.”

I am involved in a much more loving church now, but I still feel somewhat isolated not only for being a SINK, but also for being older. Many contemporary churches don’t seem to have a place for older people, especially the very old. There are only a handful of people my age or older (all married), in a large church of 20-30 year olds. I do love the worship services, and take part in women’s bible studies and service projects (because they pretty much have to talk to me then 🙂, but any of the church social activities are just too emotionally painful.  Rejection is a deep wound.


Love’s words show incredible pain: “no place of significance,” isolated, rejection.

She also described spiritual abuse by a pastor who labeled single women as a “scourge on the church.” This makes me sick. That certainly was not a healthy place for anyone!

How can the church do better in this area? Are there any singles over 50 who have some thoughts or ideas to share?

270 comments on “What is it like for a single woman over 50 at church? “Rejection is a deep wound.”

  1. (Part 3 – Re: Post by Rachel Nichols )

    Rachel N said,

    And not “proactive” enough in seeking a husband. WTH does this bozo mean? It’s not like a job interview. We were always told not to chase guys because that would scare them away

    I think you were quoting a secular conservative source there, but…
    Christians give contradictory advice and commentary to singles as well.

    The women are told to be independent to get a man, but not TOO independent. We’re told to be sexy but not TOO sexy, etc…

    Group 1.
    There is one group of Christians I’ve seen (usually gender complementarian) who write long essays or lists with characteristics they tell single Christian women to hold out for when mate hunting.

    Their lists are impossibly long, and the standards they tell single women to hold out for are so high, no man alive, apart from Jesus of Nazareth Himself, could meet them.

    Such lists or advice will only keep a single woman single indefinitely if she abides by them.

    Group 2
    But, I’ve noticed a sort of new trend in the last few years, which I’ll get to in a moment.

    Because a small portion of Christians have noted that singles now comprise a large percentage of society and marriage is on the decline, they are worried and in a tizzy.

    Christians cannot accept singles as single – they worship marriage. Many Christians do not respect singleness, so they pressure singles into getting married, no matter the cost.

    This group swings the advice and commentary to singles too far in the other direction, from being too high and strict to being too lenient, and they write articles and blog posts advising single Christian women to drop most or all of their expectations, standards, and criteria when husband- hunting.

    For example….
    Reports from the last few years in the news reveal that looking at dirty web sites and dirty movies is just as high, or almost as high, among Christian men as among Non-Christian men.

    Men looking at dirty photos or movies is a deal-breaker for a lot of Christian single women.

    However, a Christian sociologist wrote an article a year or two ago kind of scolding Christian women for holding a man viewing nudie photo viewing as a wedding deal breaker.

    He told them to reject that criteria and go ahead and marry a Christian man, even if that man looks at nudie photos all day long.

    Then, there is the Christian preacher who stated that since so many Christian preachers are looking at nudie photos, he redefined “fornication” to exclude nudie pictures as a category, so he ends his article by arguing that a man viewing nudie pics is NOT a biblical grounds for a woman to divorce.

    Because so many Christian men are failing in the area of sexual purity, Christian men are telling women to just put up with it, go ahead and marry a guy with a sexual sin problem (or stay married to him if already married).

    So, one group of Christians makes dating criteria so high it will be next to impossible for a single women to marry, should she follow their advice.

    The other group goes the opposite, equally depressing and problematic route and encourages single women to reject about any and all criteria, or their deeply held personal convictions, and to go ahead and marry any guy who comes along, no matter how deviant and gross he is.

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  2. (Part 4 – Re: Post by Rachel Nichols )

    By the way, this post is appearing on page 2 or 3 of this thread; my part 1 is Located Here, with a part 2 right under that.

    Anyway, yes, there’s a lot of insulting, derogatory material out there snarking at women who are single past age of 30, both from secular conservatives and by Christians.

    Many of these conservatives assume if you’re a woman still single past age X, it’s because you’re a raving feminist loon who hates family, men, marriage, kids and/or you worshipped your job too much.

    The truth of the matter is it’s freaking hard the older one gets to find eligible, compatible men to date.

    I did not deliberately set out to be a never-married women past the age of 40.

    I had been taught as a kid to pray and trust God to send me a spouse, but I was never sent a spouse. In the meantime, I would like to be respected as a single so long as I am single.

    I want my fellow conservatives to stop writing these arrogant, condemning essays where they tell me I’m still single because I’m too flabby, arrogant, bimbo-ish, career-focused, or whatever other negative quality. These people have never even met me or seen me in person or seen a photo of me, so they are writing from fantasy and ignorance.

    (You may be able to pick up some clues online as to why someone is still single at age X from their writing alone, case in point, the men who show up to complain they are “nice guys” who cannot get a girlfriend, yet their tone of their posts show a lot of entitlement or bitterness against women.)

    Other than a few cases like that, I cannot think of too many other scenarios where one person can tell another over the internet or in a magazine article what the cause is of their singleness.

    I am really sick and tired of secular and religious magazine articles, blogs, or books telling me I’m single past 40, and it’s all my fault I am still single, and/or I am still single because I am ugly, fat, stupid, a man-hating feminist, or insert other insulting or untrue assumptions here.

    It is just really difficult meeting single guys once you’re over 30. When you’re in college, you’re surrounded by lots of people in your age range. That is not so much true once you hit your mid 20s and older.

    Then, if you have a steady, full time job, you’re in a time crunch. Even if there were dudes you could date, how would you get the time to date them?

    The people who make negative assumptions about why older single women are single never factor these considerations in. It’s always just assumed older single ladies are single because it’s all their fault ,or they are so hideous no man would ever want them.

    ~The End~ 🙂

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  3. Yep. Matthew Cochran is the name of the A___H____ (I meant Air Head! Hee hee!) who wrote this article. Got married in college–probably in his teens or barely out of them. Wrote some nonsense about how we all fantasize about bad boy Brad Pitt clones and ignore the hordes of wonderful bachelors in our midst because we’re so shallow and picky. Does this moron live on Jupiter? He sure ain’t on planet Earth!

    As I recall, I was invisible to the guys I went to college with because I wore a size 14 dress. Too bookish and deep. And bad at flirting. Some liked me as a friend. But none of them saw me as marriage material cause I wasn’t a cute, perky blonde. I’m not the one who was picky!

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  4. Rachel Nichols said,

    As I recall, I was invisible to the guys I went to college with because I wore a size 14 dress. Too bookish and deep. And bad at flirting. Some liked me as a friend. But none of them saw me as marriage material cause I wasn’t a cute, perky blonde. I’m not the one who was picky!

    Yeah, male writers (and sometimes female sell-outs to the female gender) will sometimes assume we single ladies are single because we were holding out for a chiseled, multi-millionaire, Bruce Wayne with six pack abs.

    Nope on that. Women are generally more forgiving of looks than men are.

    I had several people take me aside while I was engaged to my ex to say they didn’t get why I was with my then-fiance’, as they felt he was ugly as lye soap and felt I was pretty. They felt I was out of his league (even my ex said he felt I was out of his league)

    I find a lot of men, even balding, toothless, dorky dweebs who are ages 35 and over, and who have no teeth, feel entitled to an air-brushed, 20-something “Sports Illustrated” magazine model, and further, such entitlement and unrealistic standards are even supported in or by churches and Christians.

    (Churches teach that men are designed to be more visual, and I, as a woman, constantly heard growing up that I should keep myself trim and pretty because dudes like the pretty, and men will not date or marry ugly fatties.

    Only once in my whole life have I seen a male Christian writer declare to the single men to get off their couches, go on a diet, lose the beer gut, and hit the gym, because they might get more dates or get a GF if they get in shape).

    I do care about what a man looks like, but I am willing to overlook my personal preferences in the physical appearance department to an extent if the guy is sweet, funny, nice, smart, or brings some other quality to the table.

    My impression is that most men are not willing to compromise on a woman’s looks or ages – no matter how ugly or how old a guy is, they are all dead set on marrying a 21 year old stick thin fashion model.

    Some polls bear this out, by the way.
    I saw an article a year or more ago showing that while most women on dating sites set their age prefs within a few years of their own ages (e.g., most 40 year old women will say on the site they are looking for men ages 35 – 45), that most men on dating sites, even 50 and 60 year olds, will set their accounts to only filter women ages 20 – 25.

    Some of the men on the dating sites (the articles said) won’t even look at profiles of women ages 26 (or 30) and older.

    I think that is really, really dumb of men. If you are a single guy over age 35, you will have an unending line of pretty, smart, accomplished women over age 35 on dating sites (or in real life) who would love to date you.
    The world of women would be yours, all yours, yet so many of you all are fixated on grabbing the 23 year old Cindy Crawford look-alike (who you’re never going to score with, and, she’s being chased by all the other men ages 20 and up….)
    You could have plenty of 37 year old, or 45 year old, or 50 year old hotties, but you’re fixated on the 20 somethings.

    I think there are a minority of single women who are way unrealistic or too demanding in their dating criteria as well (re: money or looks), but from what I’ve seen over my life, and in many articles I’ve read, these issues of being too picky, and so on, seems far, far more pervasive among single men.

    Rachel said,
    “and ignore the hordes of wonderful bachelors in our midst”

    That annoys me too. This idea that over my life I’ve had billions of average to above average, nice, great guys chase me, but I blew them all off for a Brad Pitt clone. Lord, no.

    I didn’t have tons of men chasing me down, first off.

    The few times I did have cute or average looking guys flirt with me, my self esteem was so low, I avoided them because I could not accept that a decent, stand up, cutie would actually want to date me. I thought “surely there must be some mistake here.”

    That in turn goes back to the family I was raised in: a very critical one that told me that I am not good enough, I am flawed, I am garbage.

    So, I’m sick of these authors who lecture me (or women like me) that if we’re single, it’s our fault because of this or that reason, one of which is, we supposedly were too demanding, picky, and blew off ten million nice guys to wait on Brad Pitt to ask us out.
    Please, that is NOT the reality I lived at all.

    (I left two more posts on this thread, Parts 1 and 2. They are at the bottom of the last page of this thread, if you click the link at the bottom of this page that says “Older Comments.”)

    Liked by 1 person

  5. “…because I’m too flabby, arrogant, bimboish…”

    Being a bimbo can be a real asset in finding a husband. Especially a Christian, conservative patriarch. Stupid women are more apt to submit unto their lordships and worship them like the gods they imagine themselves to be. 🙂

    At Indiana Wesleyan University, having a brain in your head was unimportant in landing a hubby. Sometimes it was even detrimental. I had a friend, Robin. She was a really cute, bubbly blonde. Normally girls like that made me feel inferior and intimidated, but I liked Robin because she was sweet and never treated me badly though I was homely and awkward.

    We all knew Robin could have her pick of men and would get engaged to some hunk before her senior year. One who was going into law or medicine. Lo, and behold, in her junior year Robin became extra studious and announced SHE was going to be a doctor! Not a nurse. Gasp!!!

    While preparing for med school consumed her times no one wanted to date her after that. Although she was cute, perky and blonde as ever Robin had had the audacity to show she had something between the ears as well.

    Last time I saw Robin, she sighed and told me she guessed she’d have to be a celibate.

    Too independent! She needed a lobotomy to make her a suitable wife. 😀

    Liked by 1 person

  6. I was just saying in another thread on this blog (_in this post_) that the guy I was engaged to was as dumb as a box of rocks – which doesn’t fit with gender complementarian teaching.

    Some comp guy in that thread was apparently saying that men should lead their women folk and read the Bible to them, but my ex could not read well.

    Once, when I was in high school, I had a big crush on this guy who was in 2 or 3 of my classes. He was very, very good-looking.

    About half way through the school year, the teacher changed the seating chart around in one class, and Mr. Cutie had to sit next to me. He was a nice guy but not so bright. Once I saw how dim he was, I lost my crush on him.

    I do not grasp men who are okay dating “pretty but stupid.”
    There’s only so much you can stare at a person and enjoy the pretty before that gets boring. I’d want to be able to laugh or having interesting conversation with the person too.

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  7. Yeah. I had some older legalistic preacher admit he looked for a wife dumber than himself in the hopes she would be easier to control–but it didn’t work. This man also condemned celibacy from the pulpit. When I told my dad how surprised and offended I was, he said I was too sensitive. He was only condemning celibate clergy. (aka evul Roman Catholic Priests! We hates em! Grr!!!) I thought he meant this too. But his words and terminology weren’t clear enough; it sounded as if he were condemning all people who weren’t getting any. Ironically he and his group were so prudish they’d have choked on their pearls if I’d pointed this out. Only the women didn’t wear ungodly adornments like jewelry. They pinned bunches of flowers, lace and ribbons on their dresses instead. Lol.

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  8. I do want to say, it really bothers me when supposedly Christian people talk solely of looks in reference to people, single or married (ie, the look at my ‘hot wife’ pastor bro type). Attraction is a part of the selection part, but aside from the fact that it is highly subjective, being good looking/hot is not the end all and be all of Christian life. In fact, it is not important at all.

    (aside from that, I decided that there are a lot of people of varying levels of attractiveness both single and married. So that’s clearly not the issue one way or the other).

    Liked by 1 person

  9. I have a problem with an article some dude wrote that used fat shaming techniques to cure church singles of their unacceptable marital status. Yes greed/gluttony is a sin, but he spent all the article condemning fat people for unsightliness rather than the sin that may or may not have been behind it.

    It’s okay to be greedy as long as you’re cute! It’s great to be a super model look alike who blows her income on the latest trends in clothes and jewelry rather than helping the poor. Appearances are all that matter to some nominal Christians.

    And there’s research now that fat shaming does not work. Telling someone, “You’re fat, ugly and unloveable,” 100 times a day will not lead to long-term weight loss. I don’t know about you, but I’m flabbergasted.

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  10. Daisy so glad to see your posting you always make me smile and or laugh. Rachel N. thanks for your comments. Still reading, tough subject but thanks for bringing to the forefront. Is any church and it’s leadership living the God of the Bible? Just wondering!

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  11. @Daisy
    “…he redefined “fornication” to exclude nudie pictures as a category, so he ends his article by arguing that a man viewing nudie pics is NOT a biblical grounds for a woman to divorce.”

    Even though men should not look at the pictures, it can’t be fornication because you need 2 people to have sex. It’s like you reading “romance” novels that always have fornication in it. And even if it is a married couple in the novel, you then become a voyeur peeping tom.
    I know that you will say that Jesus said if you lust at a women its adultery.
    Well if a woman doesn’t obey her husband, or patriarchal hierarchy, then you need to be burnt as a witch because The Bible says “for rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”.
    And by the way, there is no such thing as “complementarian” & “egalitarian”.
    There is just patriarchy. Its like saying that you can either be a “rapist, sodomite” Christian or a “straight law abiding” Christian. There is only the Christian way.

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  12. You want to burn us as witches, huh? Okay. After you get stoned, and I don’t mean high on marijuana. I don’t read romance novels ever. Bunch of lies and nonsense, women who waste their time on this trash might just as well be playing house with plastic Barbie dolls.

    How much time do you spend gawking lustfully after bikini clad women on the beach while your wife watches in anguish? But, hey you’re normal. Not some queer. If she weren’t a fat, ugly cow you wouldn’t have to deal with this. She made you do it.

    Complementarian or self righteous Pharisee? Btw, my Dad is a patriarch. He doesn’t gawk at other women. Nor does he spank Mom. He also has nothing good to say about those abusive monsters you go to great lengths to defend.

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  13. @ “Michael, setting the record straight”

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Julie Anne puts you in the Dog House.

    Michael said,

    Even though men should not look at the pictures, it can’t be fornication because you need 2 people to have sex. It’s like you reading “romance” novels that always have fornication in it.

    No, Jesus defined adultery as motive and thought life, not just action – so a guy looking at a woman in lust would be considered fornication.

    I don’t read romance novels, dude.

    Michael said,

    Well if a woman doesn’t obey her husband, or patriarchal hierarchy, then you need to be burnt as a witch because The Bible says “for rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”.

    I’m not a married woman.

    The only person the Bible asks or tells women to obey is God. Human men are not God.

    Putting all that aside, the Bible does not tell married women to “obey” their husbands. There is also nothing in the Bible about husbands “leading their wives.”

    The Bible asks women to submit to their husbands, with the expectation that the husband will lay down his life for his spouse if need be.
    The Bible does not say that submission is something a man can demand from a wife. It’s not yours to demand or ask for.

    I don’t practice witch craft… that rule doesn’t even apply today for people who do practice witchcraft, as we are living under grace now, not Old Testament Law.

    Your biblical application and hermeneutics are terrible, Michael.

    I don’t think men should be allowed to teach or preach the Bible, since they are so terrible at it.

    Mike said,

    And by the way, there is no such thing as “complementarian” & “egalitarian”.
    There is just patriarchy. Its like saying that you can either be a “rapist, sodomite” Christian or a “straight law abiding” Christian. There is only the Christian way.

    I don’t care what label slaps on to sexism that is slathered in biblical catch phrases, whether you wish to call it “patriarchy” or “complementarianism,” it’s all a bunch of sexist swill.

    I did not invent these terms, by the way – they are in common usage among Christians.

    Your post was weird, and you seem to have a terribly sexist stick up your behind.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. I don’t think men should be allowed to teach or preach the Bible, since they are so terrible at it.

    hee! But he’s ‘setting the record straight’ don’tcha know? Pfft.

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  15. HI – It’s been a while since I’ve been on here. I had posted previously that it’s been a long, long time that I have found a church that I really like. As of now I still feel unsettled, but lately I feel like I may have found a good church. But I don’t know. The church that I’ve recently found seems to have potential and I will stick with it for at least a couple of months (God willing!) and see if it will be good for me or not.

    The vast majority of the people attending there are at least 15 years older than I am. There’s not a lot of people there (I would say about 15-20). It could be that way because it’s summer and lots of people are away. A couple of people have been nice to me. It’s very hard for me to fit in to a new place right away. I do have some social anxiety, especially with strangers. There are times when I feel like it has killed me to have a fairly good social life. So, we’ll see what happens.

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  16. One more thing. I need some advice or feedback as to know what I should do, and I would appreciate it if it comes quickly. If I don’t get anything about this, then I’ll handle it on my own.

    Next Sunday (the 20th) my friend (whom I had met at a previous church that I went to and had left) will be out of town. In fact, he and his family will be going to Idaho to see the full eclipse on the 21st. Next Sunday from now, I want to go back to that church, where I used to go, and see what the new Pastor is like. I heard one of his sermons on line one time and was impressed.

    Should I tell me friend that I want to go there next week? I wonder if my friend will feel hurt that I want to go without him being there? I’d rather just go by myself at that time and maybe talk to some people that I used to know. I don’t want my friend tagging along with me at that time. If I don’t tell my friend, then he will find out anyways because the others would tell him that I was there.

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  17. Hi Tom,

    Perhaps you could ask your friend if he is interested in going back. You could say you are planning on checking it out next week and you’ll let him know your thoughts. Then, when he’s back, you could go together. Or, you could not say anything at all and if it comes up you let him know you were interesting in checking it out again. It’s kind of hard to know how he would respond without fully understanding your relationship. Are you expecting a bad reaction if you don’t say anything?

    There is nothing wrong with you doing this on your own. You shouldn’t feel like you have to wait for him to go back. I guess it all depends on if you’re concerned about ruining a good relationship.

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  18. To Kathi – Hi. I don’t know if you’ve been on here before or not. Anyway, welcome to this.

    First of all, on your first sentence, I’m not quite understanding about my friend going back. He had never left the church. I did. It’s just that he’s going to be gone for a week because of the eclipse next week.

    I do think he may react badly if he found out that I went to the church and did not tell him. But I could say that I decided to go there at the last minute. Ironically I told him today that I’m liking the new church that I found for myself.

    I just don’t want him tagging along because I feel like he will divert attention from others to me. He is pretty popular there. I never was. In fact, he was a pretty good reason why I left that church. Because I got into good conversations with only a few people; and then my friend would come along and intercept our conversation. I was annoyed by it. Another thing about my friend, that made me want to leave because of him, was that he would at times usher me into doing labor kind of work at the church after the service. I never felt like I wanted to do that. He picked me because I was very young and strong compared to the other people at that church.

    I hope I answered your question. Thank you for replying.

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  19. Hi Tom!

    I kind of agree with Kathi that there is no reason to feel bad and really no reason your friend should care. Reading your most recent comment, it sounds like you might find it easier to make friends if you show up alone. Sometimes I find that to be true.

    you might also have some annoyances that you need to address with your friend, if you decide to go back to that church. But there is nothing wrong with setting boundaries and saying no to things on occasion. When you really start getting in a church, sometimes you start getting a lot of requests and you have to learn to filter them into stuff you can manage. You can’t do everything.

    IF you’re worried about him reacting, just say you decided to see what the new preacher was like when he asks and leave it at that. It’s shouldn’t be a big deal.

    Liked by 1 person

  20. Tom –

    I misunderstood that your friend is still at the church. If it were me, and he asked why I went when he wasn’t there, I would say that I was interested in hearing the new preacher. Let it be with that. You don’t have to attend with your friend, you are free to attend whenever you choose. His reaction is not your fault.

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  21. @ Michael Setting the Record Straight
    (who probably isn’t reading this thread any more, but anyway)

    I found this while researching another topic and it’s pertinent to what Mike was posting the other day.

    From Christianity Today (Link):

    to call Twilight [or romance novels] porn for teenage girls is shaming and masks the problems of real pornography.

    Twilight isn’t porn.

    Porn is porn.

    More than one young woman has told me about the moment when she first ran across porn on the internet, the way that image was branded indelibly on her mind’s eye.

    They tell me about how porn has hampered their ability to think about sexuality as a good gift from God. How images of male domination and of women’s bodies made of plastic haunt them.

    If we call Twilight “porn,” do we participate in the Christian fiction that porn is only a problem for men?

    If anything, Twilight is more idolatry than pornography. It feeds the colossal, fallen fantasy that a girl can find a savior in a boy— if only she gives up everything. The boy will only have to be a culturally prescribed masculine fantasy— strong, jealous, with iron self-control.

    This idolatry is built on the same platform that Driscoll stands on when he mocks “soft, tender, chick-i-fied church boys” or when he says that good married Christian women will bring the artifacts of porn— real porn, mind you— into their bedrooms to please their husbands (see Denny Burk’s review of Driscoll’s Real Marriage, critiquing Driscoll’s recommendation of sodomy and sex toys in the marriage bed).

    Driscoll’s platform does not distinguish between cultural norms—norms that are broken and sinful—and God’s good creative will for us as creatures created, male and female, in his image.

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  22. Twilight isn’t porn.

    Good night, are there people who think Twilight is porn? Did they read it at all? They don’t even have sex until they get married!

    I can kind of see a comparison to romance novels, but there are actual emotions and characters developed. Not just sex, sex, sex. Not a true comparison at all.

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  23. And BTW, Kevin DeYoung posted an ‘it’s evil to watch game of throne, because sex’ article. Bless Serving Kids in Japan for commenting regarding pastor like him obsessing over culture stuff and then not caring about the abused in their own congregations.

    Maybe focus on real life instead of tv for a while.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. I never called Twilight porn. No more pornographic than other stuff. Idolatry is the real reason I am against these silly, cheesy novels. Mothers, do you really want your daughters contemplating suicide because their “one true love and soul-mate” broke up with them? That’s what that strong, smart well developed Twilight protagonist, Bella, does.
    Better have them read Jane Austen. Especially Sense and Sensibility.

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  25. Better have them read Jane Austen. Especially Sense and Sensibility.

    Later in life, the one that speaks to me is Persuasion. However, P&P is still my favorite 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  26. @ Lea,

    And BTW, Kevin DeYoung posted an ‘it’s evil to watch game of throne, because sex’ article.

    Things get even more ridiculous and muddied in the world of Christian blogger Tim Challies.

    Over a year ago, Challies wrote a blog post where he declared that “even fornicators are virgins now” (the notion being that people who do commit fornication shouldn’t really worry about it), but several months ago, he wrote another blog post where he chided and scolded Christians who watch TV shows that contain scenes of actors pretending to be having sex, especially if those actors are married in real life to other people, not the actor with whom they film the sex scene.

    The bottom line? Tim Challies is more concerned over “fake,” for-TV sex than he is “real life” sexual sins by real life people.

    Here is a link to the Challies column where he is wigging out about Christians watching fake TV sex (if anyone needs the proof):

    –Sex on the Silver Screen – Outsourcing Depravity– (on Tim Challies blog)

    -But remember, this is coming from the same guy who said in a much earlier blog post that single adults (in REAL life, not on T.V.) having sex is basically excusable, because God’s grace!, we’re all sinners, etc, and he really did use the phrase, “We’re all virgins now [even fornicators]” in that post.

    But fake sex where actors are pretending to have sex for a TV show is what’s really bad, you see.

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  27. Maybe Tim Challies has become a shock jock. A very vocal, opinionated guy. But his opinions vary from week to week. As long as his expressed views shock and offend many people–and the views of the blog go up–Challies is happy.

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  28. Just viewed Tim Challies blog in all its glory. Judging from his description of the TV sex scene, it sounds like he’s familiar with watching them. 🙂

    Read another post about 10 issues to resolve before marriage. One is–you guessed it! All the multiple sex partners you must surely have had even if Christian.

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  29. All the multiple sex partners you must surely have had even if Christian.

    This is so over dramatic. If you had a trauma associated with sex you probably need to discuss it, or if you are very young, but I feel like older couples are probably going to be fine.

    But then, I’m past the point of thinking sex before marriage is some huge issue. So maybe daisy and I wouldn’t be in sync on this!

    Like

  30. I should say my dating life the last year or has mostly been divorced dads, so maybe my perspective is just different. Maybe I should read the article.

    Like

  31. The guy I am seeing has had several sex partners. I think he’s nervous because I am physically a virgin. This does bother guys more than anyone wants to admit. But he repented, so I won’t hold it against him since God doesn’t. He may have a kid in Japan. Maybe over 20 now. If he wants to meet the young person I am glad and may join him.

    Still honked off at the notion of cheap grace. As Tim Challies presents it. Just sin away young people. Then you can show up at church. Make occasional confessions after services while trying to look sad. Then we can all go to Heaven after all. Yuck yuck! Ain’t’ grace grand!

    Remember how our LORD bled and died to redeem us from our sins? No big deal after all cause our sins are so small and forgiveable.

    A lot of “redeemed” folks have spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.

    Like

  32. Hmm. for whatever the reason, Ed, who used to post here has been posting to my Daisy blog this evening.

    Lea said,

    But then, I’m past the point of thinking sex before marriage is some huge issue. So maybe daisy and I wouldn’t be in sync on this!

    My perspective is that the Bible forbids sex prior to marriage.

    I was certainly taught as such as a kid and teen, and I see as an adult that is what the Bible teaches.

    However, Christians today have given up on biblical morality, including abstaining before marriage.

    It started out with Non-Christian, liberal feminists who went around talking about being “sex positive” and how “slut shaming” is bad. This influenced the liberal Christians online (such as RHE) who began blogging about it, and then your liberal Christians started chortling and making jokes about Christians actually expecting women to stay virgins, and then conservatives like Challies, strangely enough, bought into it and started to parrot it.

    My position is that if I am in a stable dating relationship, I’d now be okay with having sex prior to marriage, but, I am not going to deny that the Bible says it’s fornication. That is where I differ from many Christians, especially the liberal ones.

    I think many Christians today, and from when I was a teen, were selling a false Gospel of dating, sex, marriage, etc.
    They tell you when you are a kid to abstain, save sex for marriage, but when you find yourself still single and a virgin past age 30, the church doesn’t support you at all.

    Everything with Christians is about supporting married couples, and they all assume there is no such thing as a virgin adult past age 30.

    Well, I am over 40 and still a virgin, and yes, I have a sex drive, and no, God did not “gift me with celibacy” and wipe away all sexual desire.

    From what I can gather, Christians are not serious about supporting sexual purity or virginity.

    Christians will tell teen girls to stay virgins until marriage, but when that teen girl is a 30 or 40 year old virgin (still not married), those same Christians are assuming she’s just having sex all over the place (even tho she is not), then you have your Challies and RHE types online telling people that virginity is no big deal, so if you have sex before marriage, eh, so what.

    Virginity is of no import. No biggie is you fornicate, they say.

    And I’m like, but, you guys told me when I was 15 years old that it’s wrong to have sex before marriage, now you’re saying “meh, go ahead who really cares, and everyone is doing it, you may as well too.” -??

    There is no consistency from Christians on this.

    I don’t see a point in holding out for marriage, should I meet a great guy, and we’re in a stable dating relationship. I have been robbed of any and all reasons to abstain any longer.

    Christians don’t really and truly expect anyone over the age of 18 to abstain.

    Like

  33. ‘Christians don’t really and truly expect anyone over the age of 18 to abstain.’

    GOD is who asked you so kindly to refrain from sex till marriage. YES, it is not easy. Like in life, you have the HAVE’s and the HAVE NOTs.
    I’m over 50 and most days I feel my life is over, but I do all I can to wrap my mind around what God has for me if I trust in him.

    God offers eternal life. All we know is this life that was giving to us. It is super hard to unwrap our mind from this life and wrap our thoughts around what God is offering us. I struggle everyday with feeling everything BUT what God tells us to feel.
    If it was easy, everyone would do it.

    If you can defeat your flesh and what you think you need, you will accomplish much.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. Rachel, in my twenties I had multiple sex partners and I was a sincere believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, grace is marvellous for without it we would ALL be up the creek.

    The reason why I had multiple sex partners was likely due to feelings of immense rejection from my parents. I wanted to be loved and of course if you are twenty and cute you will have no shortage of young guys telling you so.

    It hurts to read your comment because I was that person. I’ve been there… and the sex meant nothing to me… it was intimacy and LOVE i was looking for. Of course, i didn’t get it… but if you think I was flapping a grace card whilst doing the deed then you are wrong.

    Many believers struggle with sexual sins. It’s easy to be snarky about it when you’re not that person but I can remember my state of mind at the time and it wasn’t mentally healthy.

    Maybe a little more grace?

    We are all struggling in one way or another.

    Like

  35. Christians will tell teen girls to stay virgins until marriage, but when that teen girl is a 30 or 40 year old virgin (still not married), those same Christians are assuming she’s just having sex all over the place (even tho she is not), then you have your Challies and RHE types online telling people that virginity is no big deal, so if you have sex before marriage, eh, so what.

    There are so many things wrapped up in this kind of teaching…you have the other side where you can start telling people they are worthless because they did have sex and that isn’t right either.

    I don’t believe anyone should be shamed for what they’ve done, so long as they have not been hurting others. Adultery, abuse…those are sins that hurt someone else. I’m drawing a hard line on those, and feeling a lot of grace for the rest I guess.

    Like

  36. Great points Daisy! :-)’Since you no longer actually see yourself as a Christian and are willing to date pagans, trying to “hold out for the honeymoon” would irritate most of the gentlemen. You might even gain a reputation as a tease. I am not being sarcastic either.

    I need to blog about why the “True Love Waits” campaign failed. Basically they promised specific carnal rewards for obedience. When God didn’t make good on the promises well meaning fools had made on His behalf many singles felt cheated.

    I am a virgin. I may be marrying my best guy pal in the future. I am determined NOT TO WEAR WHITE. Seriously. Odd how many people find this scandalous even though my sexual integrity is not questioned. 😉

    Like

  37. I’m happy for you, Rachel!

    I think people like white because it’s tradition, and no other reason. But you do you.

    Like

  38. Rachel said,

    Great points Daisy! 🙂 ’Since you no longer actually see yourself as a Christian and are willing to date pagans, trying to “hold out for the honeymoon” would irritate most of the gentlemen. You might even gain a reputation as a tease. I am not being sarcastic either.

    Rachel, maybe your heart is in the right place here, but it sounds weirdly insulting to me.

    (I honestly cannot tell if you were genuinely attempting to be supportive of me in some way, or if that was meant in a snarky tone to put me down? I don’t know how to read the tone or motive behind it.)

    I’m not quite sure what I am. I cannot slap a label on myself.

    I have not rejected Jesus Christ.

    But I’ve been in the valley of indecision that last few years, seeing that a lot of things I was taught about the faith, Bible, etc, is a bunch of swill that doesn’t work in real life. I don’t know how true Christianity is.

    It’s very difficult for me to articulate my views about religion these days.

    I’m willing to date or marry almost any guy, provided he treats me right.

    His proclamation of belief does not matter – there are so many Christian men who beat their wives, cheat on them, etc, that a profession of faith apparently does not change most men’s lives.

    I’ve occasionally seen an atheist here or there who live out Christian morals and ideals better then some regular church attending Christians… I’ve also seen Christian women who married atheists say so. They say their first husband was a Bible believing Christian who treated them like trash, but they divorced that guy to marry an atheist, and the atheist, they say, acts more like a Christian than the Christian first husband did.

    Re this:

    trying to “hold out for the honeymoon” would irritate most of the gentlemen. You might even gain a reputation as a tease.

    I’m still currently a virgin, Rachel.

    I’m not going to give it up on a first date. And not for just any guy.

    You make it sound like I now have zero standards and would spread it around like I’m cheap.

    I’m more like this woman:

    Woman [Suzannah] Reveals Why she Refuses to Hook-up with Men ‘For Fun’ (article on Daily Mail site)

    But while casual sex was ‘physically enjoyable’, Suzannah craved ‘a deeper, more wholesome connection’. She wanted emotional and intellectual stimulation, too.

    After finding that with a college boyfriend, she couldn’t go back to hook-ups.

    Now, she’s up front about the fact [on dating sites] that she wants to get to know someone before having sex, even writing that she’s ‘not looking for hook-ups’ prominently in her Tinder profile.

    And that hasn’t stopped the flow of matches sending her messages.

    …She went on:
    ‘Even when people have had a different idea of how quickly the physical relationship should evolve, they have been happy to wait until I’m comfortable. Who, after all, would want to hook-up with someone who is uncomfortable? Not someone I can trust.’

    Suzannah said that most men ‘have been respectful enough to not make a move until they get a clear sign from me….

    One of several reasons I remain single isn’t entirely the virginity issue, I’d say the unrealistic Christian “Equally Yoked” teaching, coupled with the Christian idea of, “Just pray and have faith in the Lord, and he’ll send you a husband!” are partially to blame.

    I had the opportunity to be with a good looking, successful guy before, but he was Roman Catholic, so we could not have been “equally yoked,” according to the Baptist tradition in which I had been raised.

    Had I not believed in the Equally Yoked garbage I was taught as a kid and a teen, I could likely be happily married to that guy now.

    I may never meet a decent guy. There is no guarantee saying that just because I’ve modified my views that I will meet a great guy and also have a roll in the hay with him.

    It’s super easy to be idealistic about holding on to your virginity and the Equally Yoked teaching stuff when you’re in your 20s or 30s and/or already are engaged to a Christian man, as you apparently are.

    If you are over age 45, as I am, tired of waiting and being single, with no male prospects in sight, all that idealism gets chucked out the door, as does the “pie in the sky” stuff where Christians try to console your still-single status by spiritualizing it, saying things like, “but Jesus will reward you in the afterlife for staying a virgin your whole life!”

    Um, no. I want a husband now and to be having sex, I don’t want a “reward” after I’m dead for being single and chaste.

    I’m not so picky any more about who I marry religion wise, so long as the guy is not abusive to me.
    But that doesn’t mean I’ve turned into a raving, hormonal whore who is going to sleep with every man she meets, and on the first date, either.

    For any single Christian woman out there who desire marriage, waiting, praying, and doing the “Equally Yoked” thing is only acting as a hamper to you getting married, and it’s a waste of your time.

    Liked by 1 person

  39. Rachel, maybe your heart is in the right place here, but it sounds weirdly insulting to me.

    I think it was the reference to dating a ‘pagan’.

    If we were all sitting in a bar, I would give further thoughts on this whole topic of sex, because I have them, but I’m not really interested in going into detail online.

    Like

  40. Lea said,

    There are so many things wrapped up in this kind of teaching…you have the other side where you can start telling people they are worthless because they did have sex and that isn’t right either.

    The problem is the liberal Christians (who have now influenced many of the conservative ones, like Challies, on this issue) have over-corrected this.

    They have over-compensated.

    In attempting to cheer up all the people who have had sex prior to marriage, who say they may have felt shamed over it, after hearing a “purity” lecture in a Sunday school class one time 10 – 20 years ago (which is a very common complaint I’ve seen), the pendulum has fully swung way too far in the other direction, where there are online diatribes against virginity and celibacy, ones written by Christians, of all people.

    That hurts my feelings. But, apparently, my feelings don’t matter – only cheering up those who have “diddled”- prior- to- marriage feelings matter.

    If Christians are not going to fully revere virginity (and at times mock those who have abstained, or mock the concept of virginity itself, as they occasionally do, on other sites I’ve been on)….
    And if Christians are no longer going to speak out against fornication as being a sexual sin (because some say a purity lecture they heard in church youth class when they were 17 made them feel uncomfortable), there is no reason at all for me to abstain.

    Also, it’s making a joke out of my decades-long- by- now celibacy and making it moot.

    I could have been boinking like a cat in heat since my teen years, apparently.

    Had I known when I was ages 15, 18, 25, that nobody in Christianity would be defending virginity these days, and cheering me on and supporting me in this, had I foreseen as a teen that my later in life virginity would be brushed aside as though it does not matter…
    I think I may have been happy to have sex prior to marriage years ago (provided it was in a loving, committed relationship).

    I don’t think Christians who go on these anti-purity stances realize how much damage they are not only doing to biblical sexual ethics, but how demoralizing they are to people such as myself who are literal virgins over the age of 35.

    To put it another way to the Christian community:
    Don’t tell me when I’m 15 years old that I should stay a virgin until marriage, only to turn around and tell 45 year old me that my virginity is no big deal. But that is what they are doing. I feel as though I was lied to.

    Liked by 1 person

  41. @ Lea.
    I left another comment for you, but it is not showing up on the blog, not that I can see. I even refreshed the page, but I don’t see my post to you.

    I didn’t use any bad language in it, so I don’t know why it’s not appearing.

    I was just saying I found the entirety of Rachel’s paragraph that I quoted off putting, not just the “pagan” part.

    But then, I am not sure what her motive was. Maybe I am misunderstanding her.

    Like

  42. That hurts my feelings.

    I know it does. I don’t think its necessary to mock anyone for their choices in this area. Nor is it kind.

    I disagree with you, though, in that I think the overcorrection to an extent was necessary, but should have stopped short of making fun of anyone who didn’t have sex. That’s prevalent enough in popular culture.

    my feelings don’t matter

    Everyone’s feelings should matter! We all made choices, for whatever our reasons. We can make different ones now, or not. I think I’ve said before, I would have been a little more wild as a teenager if I had it do over again….but then again maybe not because I think I’m temperamentally wired to be risk averse.

    But here is the thing I’ve decided about life as I get older, I have never regretted the things I’ve done. Even the things that were obvious mistakes. Because I learned from them, I grew, I experienced. The only things I’ve ever regretted are the things I didn’t do.

    Like

  43. I was just saying I found the entirety of Rachel’s paragraph that I quoted off putting, not just the “pagan” part.

    Will look for it later, thanks. Pagan just jumped out at me.

    Like

  44. Believe me, I was trying to be supportive in my weird “Tim the Toolman” way. If you are not sure where you are spiritually it’s probably hard to know what you want.

    Not sure if my own situation will work out. If it does it will not be a story book romance. Poverty, poor health, emotional baggage from years of celibacy. In the end my only reward will be a smile on the face of my One True Love when He says, “Well done good and faithful servant!”
    So
    Stories about how God may grant you a marriage partner en route to the cemetery, when you’re too old and sick to enjoy it have always struck me as incredibly stupid. As though that should console you for years of heart ache and loneliness when it can’t. Nothing this side of eternity can make it up.

    Like

  45. Bless Serving Kids in Japan for commenting regarding pastor like him obsessing over culture stuff and then not caring about the abused in their own congregations.

    Thanks for the shoutout, Lea. I was so happily surprised when Todd Wilhelm highlighted my post on Twitter. Glad to know that he found it relevant and worthy of mention.

    Can’t be sure how many people saw it on DeYoung’s comment board, or if it’s still there. I know my last two comments on that article didn’t last more than a few minutes. RevKev doesn’t seem to appreciate my presence there, or my talking about his buddies.

    I, too, wish that DeYoung, Challies, Piper and so many others would get their priorities straight.

    Like

  46. SKIJ, every time I see you commenting at other sites, I’m woohooing. You have a way of cutting to the chase that (hopefully) makes people think. Keep going!

    Like

  47. Can’t be sure how many people saw it on DeYoung’s comment board, or if it’s still there.

    Ah, well. I left a comment as well, but didn’t pop back in to see if it was still there.

    Like

  48. Lea said,

    I disagree with you, though, in that I think the overcorrection to an extent was necessary, but should have stopped short of making fun of anyone who didn’t have sex. That’s prevalent enough in popular culture.

    If Christians want to let other Christians who’ve fallen into sexual sin know that God can forgive them of that sin, I can tolerate that.

    But Christians now have taken it too far, where they don’t just say, “God can forgive you of a sexual sin” …

    …but
    (here’s the over-correction, which is, far as I can tell, also un-biblical and not in line with orthodox Christian views on sexuality)…

    “God can forgive you of sexual sin, and, but, virginity is really, really dumb, and it’s nothing but an old-fashioned, out-dated patriarchal construct, so just ignore it. Virginity has no value and doesn’t matter. Do what thou wilt.”

    Liked by 1 person

  49. Yep. And don’t forget, “If you’re a virgin and not a liar, you must be arrogant beyond belief, self righteous, making an idol of your celibacy, a frigid ascetic and a godless Roman Catholic as well.”

    I like Roman Catholics and have dated one. Nick was one of the few nice men I dated. My guess is the emotionally healthy Christian singles tend to be Catholic. A lot less virgin shaming where your church leaders are expected to be celibate. And child molesting and adultery occurs with all our “godly married men” ordained to serve the Protestant churches.

    Like

  50. Rachel said, “And child molesting and adultery occurs with all our “godly married men” ordained to serve the Protestant churches”.

    Remember the Catholic Church sex scandals around 15 years ago? As I recall, a lot of them happened in the greater Boston area (where I came from originally, but I’m not living there now). I heard that some Catholic Churches in that area had closed because of the scandals. And, as far as hearing the scandals is concerned, it’s probably only a fraction of how much of it really went on.

    I had been hit on by Catholic Priests. And I have known other guys that it happened to them, too. One guy told me that he was struggling with homosexuality when he was 15 years old. He went to confess it to the Priest. The Priest, at that time being about 50 years old, asked him if he wanted to make out.

    Like

  51. Rachel said,

    Yep. And don’t forget, “If you’re a virgin and not a liar, you must be arrogant beyond belief, self righteous, making an idol of your celibacy, a frigid ascetic and a godless Roman Catholic as well.”

    Yes, that is a nice summary of 95% of Christian bias, insults, and misconceptions about adult virginity that I’ve seen out there.

    I really loathe the Christians who say if you’re a virgin past 25 or 30, you have made virginity into an idol. Let me see if I have this correct. I was told as a kid that sex prior to marriage is a sin. I read the Bible then and now, and yes, it does seem to say that.

    So, because I’ve followed an historic Christian doctrine on sexuality, some Christians automatically deem me an idol-maker?

    Anyway, another common falsehood or two you can add to your list of bogus garbage many Christians say about virginity and celibacy:

    “You must have the gift of singleness!” (or “the gift of celibacy.”) The GOC (gift of celibacy) is so misunderstood.

    I am celibate because I have practiced self-discipline this long, not because God “gifted me” with it.

    Tied in with that is this mistake idea by Christians that celibates do not have a sexual drive, because God wiped it out when he supposedly “gifted us” with life long celibacy, so only “special people” can be virgins past 25 years of age. Wrong-o!

    Anybody can sexually abstain into adulthood.
    It’s not a given or inevitable that anyone who experiences sexual desire will act on it, or has to act on it.

    But anyway, I dare say many to most adult virgins experience sexual desire.

    God does not magically wipe away Libido from celibates, so I do wish Christians would stop this stuff about, “Oh, you’re a virgin over 30 years old? God gave you the gift of celibacy (and must’ve removed your libido.”)

    By the way, it’s not a gift I want, even if it were “a gift.” No thanks. I’d rather be married having sex with a spouse.

    About the idolatry thing. Christians really like to put you in a double bind on many topics, this is another.

    Suppose you’re a single adult like me who says you’re tired of being single and celibate.
    Some Christians will say you are making celibacy or virginity a sin (just by being a celibate or virgin because you’re following Biblical precepts and teachings, I don’t see how that works – any way -).

    The Bible does say it’s better to marry than burn with lust (not that I can make a spouse magically appear).

    So, these Christians say you’re making your celibacy an Idol, but when you confess to very much wanting to be married, they then get you with the list of Single Bingos:

    “You’re making marriage an idol. You should be content in your singleness. Jesus is your boyfriend, the Lord is your husband. As soon as you are content in your single status, that is when God will send you a spouse.”

    You’re supposedly making idols either way – whether you are a celibate single OR a single wanting marriage. You cannot win no matter what you do.

    Like

  52. It certainly happens Tom.

    But marriage is no guarantee that it won’t. A wave of similar scandals is about to hit the Evangelical Protestant churches.

    Maybe they have just done a better job at hiding it. A former youth minister of mine has been found guilty of molesting teenage girls. Married man. If men want to molest little kids how is marrying an adult woman going to help?

    Like

  53. I just remembered something that I saw a day or two before.
    Above, I said:

    …but
    (here’s the over-correction, which is, far as I can tell, also un-biblical and not in line with orthodox Christian views on sexuality)…
    “God can forgive you of sexual sin, and, but, virginity is really, really dumb, and it’s nothing but an old-fashioned, out-dated patriarchal construct, so just ignore it. Virginity has no value and doesn’t matter. Do what thou wilt.”

    From this article (about a priest who preyed on kids):
    Dad ‘undressed daughter and laid her on Catholic altar’ (on New York Post)

    From that page:

    … Ridsdale [the priest] told some of his victims the abuse was “part of God’s work,” the Victorian County Court heard on Tuesday.

    (The 10-year-old’s) father carried her to the confessional booth and took her clothes off her, then carried her to the altar and lay her down,” crown prosecutor Jeremy McWilliams said.

    Ridsdale then indecently assaulted her.

    “Ridsdale told her: ‘Jesus died for our sins so we could be forgiven and if I confess to this sin I might be forgiven.’”
    “Then he kissed her on the cheek.”

    Ridsdale told a nine-year-old altar boy “God will forgive all of your sins” as he raped him, McWilliams said.

    Afterward, he told the sobbing boy to pray for forgiveness.

    There is a mentality held by some that any sort of sexual sin – from a pervert adult preying on kids – to adult- on- adult consensual acts – is, in the end, all fine and dandy, because God will forgive it. Just pray about it, and God is fiiiine with it.

    I think this attitude can make a mockery of the faith and of grace, but it’s become more common in the last several years regarding sexual behavior.

    JA blogged about Tullian T. months ago, how he abused his position as a clergy person to prey on women. Tullian seemed to preach or believe in this type of grace or faith – just go about and live how you want, because God’s grace will make it okay.

    Like

  54. As soon as you are content in your single status, that is when God will send you a spouse

    I have never heard that virginity idol thing. I have heard this, though and think it’s bunk.

    Mostly, this topic around a persons sex life or lack thereof I pretty much never want to discuss, unless with very close friends in real life. I really think preachers should stop talking about it, unless they are in a counseling session and it is relevant.

    Like

  55. One guy told me that he was struggling with homosexuality when he was 15 years old. He went to confess it to the Priest. The Priest, at that time being about 50 years old, asked him if he wanted to make out.

    That is terrible!!! One of the things that jumped out to me in the Keepers is that the priest would listen to confession and then use it against the young girls.

    Like

  56. There is a mentality held by some that any sort of sexual sin – from a pervert adult preying on kids – to adult- on- adult consensual acts – is, in the end, all fine and dandy, because God will forgive it. Just pray about it, and God is fiiiine with it.

    The problem here is that they ignore the issue of consent. Which is important. Kids can’t consent. Rape is a lack of consent. Some other situations have sort of compromised consent.

    Consensual sex IS different.

    I read a great treatment of WHY this is conflated somewhere. Will have to see if I can dig this up.

    Like

  57. You said,
    “Consensual sex IS different.”

    The idea that anything flies (sexually) because God will forgive it if one just asks after the fact is used in either scenario to justify and rationalize.

    Like

  58. I fully agree with you, Daisy. Our sins killed the Son of God! How dare we minimize or justify ANY sin sexual or cruel? It’s all cruel because it hurts our loving Heavenly Father!

    There is a reason rape and child molesting should be illegal though. If I seek out a sex partner at a bar, I have no one but myself to blame if I wind up infected or emotionally messed up. Children and rape victims have no choice.

    Like

  59. An Update (from my post last week; Aug. 13th) – I DID IT. I WENT TO MY OLD CHURCH THIS MORNING!

    I was not as nervous as I thought I would be in going in. I did feel a little bit shaky, but I guess that had to be expected. There didn’t seem to be many cars in the parking lot, but a lot more people inside than I thought there would be. It seemed like nothing’s changed since I left. So I felt like I hadn’t missed much. Mostly very old people there and into their cliques like before.

    I spoke to a couple of people, but that was it. They hoped that I would come back. But for now, I don’t think so. I just happen to find a church recently that I might like. But even if I didn’t find a church, I still would not want to go back there. I met with the Pastor. I had spoken to him over the phone about a couple of months ago. I introduced myself to him and he knew right away. His sermon was alright, but not as good as I thought it would be.

    Like

  60. Another thing that’s been on my mind is that I had a health scare last Thursday night. I had a fever but didn’t have a cold. I felt hot and cold at the same time. And then I had some red coloring on my thigh that was mysterious. I went to the doctor on Friday and the doctor could not pin point what it was. I was given antibiotics. I’m doing better now, but I have a follow up appointment for Monday. My regular doctor was out, so I went to someone else. I will be seeing my regular doctor on Monday.

    After all of this I got thinking a lot about myself and for others who are in the same position in life as I am. I thought I would post it on here because this about being single and feeling rejected at church. I feel like I’m alone in the world. I would hope that a church can be like a family to me; but I have not found one. So what would happen if something serious could happen to me and I’m alone? Is anyone else reading on here feeling like this?

    Of all things, the only good friend I’ve got just left town when all of this happened to me. He’s still gone but will be back by mid-week. I hated to tell him what happened as he had called me on his trip. I didn’t want to ruin his trip.

    Two years ago I had surgery. For a few weeks after being released I couldn’t do much for myself. So I called on the church to see if they could help me. It’s the church where I met my friend. It’s that church I went to today after not going for a while. I didn’t get much help from that church. They did help, but it was not good quality. The food they cooked for me was not that good and no one stayed around to talk to me to see how I was doing. I remembered one time a woman said that she was going to come to clean my place for me. She never showed up and never called me to tell me. Is it any wonder why I didn’t want to stay there?

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  61. I thought I would post it on here because this about being single and feeling rejected at church. I feel like I’m alone in the world.

    I’m sorry, Tom.

    I feel like a huge piece of this single in church problem is that church is being looked at as a place to find deep community and it doesn’t always work. When you are married/kids there are more places to find that, I would think, naturally. (husbands friends/family, kid friends) Your days naturally fill up and you are never really alone, as you have your spouse.

    I have gotten to a place in my church where I feel that I know a lot of people, fit in, and really do feel that peace and communal vibe, but it’s still mostly church based or at church activities. I don’t randomly hang out with people on the weekends, for instance.

    Learning how to make friends as an adult is hard. It’s something I’ve really been working on and part of that is when somebody invites me to something, I need to go. (sometimes I don’t still). And actually inviting people to go and do. For me, I have to make this a conscious thing.

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  62. @Lea – “learning how to make friends as an adult is hard.” Oh boy has it been hard for me! It seems like it’s been hard for me all of my life. Yet I’ve had friends; and then think, “how did I ever do it?”. And it’s gotten harder now that I’m older. I keep on having optimism and hopes that I will someday soon stumble into great friendships and fellowships.

    They say that women have an easier time making friends than men do. I would very much agree with that. From what I’ve observed I’ve seem women be able to make friends. Women that I’ve known had made friends with another woman that they’ve never seen before. It seems like a man just can’t do that. Or if he did, then he’d be thought of as gay or a scoundrel. One time a guy told me, “women seem to blend in with other women while men have to prove themselves worthy in getting a mate or a friend”.

    There had been lots of times I remember when I would turn down an invitation. And I would kick myself for doing that. On the other hand, I had taken up an invitation, even though I preferred not to do it. When I went ahead with the invitation, I ended up feeling worse than if I didn’t do it and kick myself for it.

    Making friends has never been an easy task for me. I am very introverted. I tend to be drawn to outgoing people. Well, that makes sense because the outgoing ones tend to reach out to me. But then I would have some frustrations in being friends with them because we are just different. One time I was friendly with a guy who was a lot like me. I didn’t like him at first. But then in time when I got to know him, he turned out to be the very best friend I ever had.

    Well, I feel like I’ve got to hurry up and do something before it’s too late; that I would end up suffering and dying alone. I have many times relied on God to have Him show me the way. God will know.

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  63. BTW, Kevin deYoung was so annoyed that people watch Game of Thrones, even though he told them not to!, that he wrote a followup.

    quote:

    Don’t like it? Then don’t watch it! That would be a fine point if the argument only concerned taste and preference. But what would you say if your son tried that line in defense of his pornography?

    Did anyone tell him that all of Christianity is not analogous to his ‘child’? He is really obsessed with the fact that people have sex on the tv show. That is on hbo. /sorry didn’t know where to put this.

    Tom, I wish you luck. I would say what I have learned the past few years is that
    1. It takes time to become comfortable with new people, enough to really be yourself.
    2. It is helpful to pick up a sport, hobby or some such thing that puts you in company with others actually doing things
    3. If you can become friends with someone who knows a lot of people and holds social gatherings? Bonus.

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  64. The same thing it feels like for a good man like me that is still single today at the age of 63, even though i had been married at one time before my Ex wife cheated on me which wasn’t my fault at all to begin with. And that is what happened when unfortunately i married this low life pathetic loser that i never knew to begin with since i was very much the faithful and committed one from the very beginning to the very end. The good old days most marriages did last which was a very good thing back then.

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  65. My friend, at where I used to go to church, just found out that I went to the service there three weeks ago. I posted about that; that I was going to go to that church while my friend was out of town. My friend today notified me that someone told him I went to that church. I don’t know why it took two weeks to find out.

    My friend seemed OK with it. I would have like to explain to him why I did what I did. We talked about that over the phone. I didn’t explain myself very well over the phone. But I do plan to go see him on Monday; and perhaps I could explain it better as to why I went when he was gone.

    My friend will be leaving this Tuesday for two weeks. He and his wife will on a cruise in Norway. I will really miss him while he’s gone.

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  66. Wonder why Kevin DeYoung has never just gone TV free. I quit watching TV years ago. I only watch it as a social activity when I’m around my couch potato mother who can’t even talk about anything she doesn’t see on the tube.

    It’s not just the sex and violence, but TV is the go to hobby for idiots and intellectual sluggards. And the reason sex and violence are on TV all the time is simple. It is the perfect medium for conveying mindless emotions and serves as the modern equivalent to the Roman collessium.I recommend Jerry Mander’s Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television.

    Surprisingly Christians continue to rot their brains with this wasteful, non-productive activity. They prefer to whine about content, but few of them are willing to turn the darned thing OFF let alone throw it away.

    They refuse to read anything at all, except product brochures and recipes and maybe the frothiest romance novels possible. And most of them don’t read their Bibles regularly either. Rin Tin Tin and Lassie aren’t inherently sinful, but 12 hours a day of either one and you have a problem!

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  67. I thought this article was interesting.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/09/05/christians-are-part-of-the-same-dating-pool-as-everyone-else-thats-bad-for-the-church/?tid=pm_local_pop&utm_term=.5ea64341e489

    However, exceptions to Farrell’s age effect are apparent among married evangelicals, meaning that under-30 evangelicals who were already married were notably less permissive.

    This sounds like people who are already married judging the ones who aren’t to me.

    All this puts pressure on American pastors, operating as they are in a free religious market. How? Because it signals that they can’t count on the predictable return to organized religious life of late 20-somethings after they marry and begin having children. The return is slowed by delayed marriage.

    I also thought this was an interesting market based point that Daisy often brings up. If churches don’t appeal to single people in general, and there are more single people and they get more out of the habit of going…what happens?

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  68. I left my own comment about Christian “meat markets” and how online dating is really no worse in the selfishness it promotes than the kind you find on religious college campuses.

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  69. I feel the exact same way. Church should not be the loneliest place I go to to but it is. I’m divorced and 56. I don’t really feel there’s a place for me at
    church. It’s nice to know I’m not the only one who feels this way.

    Liked by 2 people

  70. I have posted on here for quite a while. I’m still looking to find the right place for me. I go alone. It doesn’t help having social anxiety, especially being with strangers. My sister goes to a church and she just loves it. She’s married with two children. I told her that I have been looking for many years. I feel like, when I go to a service on Sunday morning, it’s like going through dirge to pay for my imperfections that I had done from the previous seven days. Or having Chemo treatments.

    Sad to say that, at some denominations (like the Methodists, Presbyterian USA, and other liberal ones), I would be more embraced and accepted if I were there with a guy holding hands and kissing him than with me going by myself. Of course that’s never going to happen. I don’t lean that way.

    Liked by 1 person

  71. Have you considered inventing a girlfriend? Find a nice pic online of a woman, but no one famous. Tell everyone you are having a long distance relationship with her. Then tell them you have given her a ring and will marry soon. One month before the wedding tell them she has come down with some rare, fast-acting disease. (Look up the symptoms on Wikipedia.) Tell everyone,”My Reason for Existing needs me!” Then go on vacation claiming to want to nurse your fictitious sweetie pooh.

    Come back. Rub irritant in your eyes before returning to church so you can shed tears while you tell the pathetic tale of how your beloved sweetie pookums died in your arms. Embellish the tale with details lifted from tear jerkers like Love Story, The English Patient, A Walk to Remember, and crap off the Hallmark channel. It’s doubtful anyone will ask, “Haven’t I seen this in a movie?” due to the mass hypnotic effect of TV and movies that makes folks believe them more than reality.

    Nobody will mock a poor guy who lost his fiance. Even the biggest jerks in church won’t sneer at you for not “manning up” or accuse you of preferring Cocker Spaniels. Any single women will find “poor Tom” irresistible since your tale of woe melts their kind hearts and you aren’t afraid to weep in public (Mr. Sensitivity) and will hold their hair if they get sick and puke.

    Okay.I’m kidding. Don’t do this.

    But this silly shenanigan might work. Not sure if that’s funny or pathetic.

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  72. But this silly shenanigan might work.

    Cracked me up, but very wrong. Did you ever see Christmas in Connecticut? It’s a single woman who is writing stories in a magazine about her married life/kids/recipes and it’s all a lie and then she had to pretend it’s real. Pretty cute. Like a better acted, less annoying, Hallmark movie.

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  73. I know this is an old post, but it felt so good to find someone who feels like I do. I am 54, and single. Sadly, what I have found out, are the churches that do have singles groups are very worldly, and live like today’s culture. There is no way to comfortably hang out with married couples the men are friendly and the wives can barely smile or even barely able talk to me. It is very uncomfortable and I just don’t feel like I belong. and that is the typical people my age in a biblically based Church. Churches that are ran by a younger generation see absolutely no value in me whatsoever and I am ignored even when I wanted to reach out and help. I do not know what to do, so I go to church and sit alone. I have tried to fit in. I have gone to Bible studies, I have gone to outreach projects I have gone to introductions. I never feel like I belong I always feel like I’m on the outskirts of everything and it makes me very very sad. I am not sure if I will ever find a church family.

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  74. I don’t want anyone else’s husband. This sounds weird, but I don’t find married men attractive except in a “sidewalk sexy” way. Once or twice married men have tried to flirt inappropriately. Physically they were far from ugly, but their bad character automatically made them repulsive so I froze them out!

    Sadly I find the men are easier to talk to because we have more in common. The hausfraus are only interested in housekeeping tips, frothy romance novels, having babies, cosmetics, what pigs their husbands are, how to manipulate their husbands into not being pigs, and scandal. Not celebrity but the local community,the schools their kids attend and any church members not there. Often those “pigs” they claim to honor and obey as well.

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  75. I no longer attend church because an over 55 divorced woman has no place there. Church is only for the elderly married people or young married with children.
    In this day and age of divorce there is not one church that tries to gather us lost sheep.
    It’s a shame because this group has a lot to offer in our walk of rejection and loneliness.
    I too was once young, married and had children.
    Would love to explain to smug people it too could happen to them and to be grateful for what they do have.
    God forgives but church does not.

    Liked by 1 person

  76. Stellina, some churches have large populations of widows–mostly over 50. Like you they are no longer married or young. Do you think you might find acceptance there? That is–assuming they don’t automatically write you off because you are divorced.

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  77. Got some nasty comment on my expired blog. Not the active one. Calls herself the Truth. Told me I was a failure because I had not done God’s will by becoming a wife and mother. Told me I was a feminist/modernist (She don’t know me very well!)

    Claimed to be a super success as a writer/video maker, but failed to provide links to her awesome, successful sites. She may have snagged a man and popped out some unlucky kids but doesn’t sound that successful to me. I think she has posted here and has resorted to trolling websites of other users.

    Maybe I shouldn’t be feeding Madame Troll. Just warning the rest of you.

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  78. I pity her now that I think about it. I would never mock a housewife for “failing” to finish a college degree or build a career. I admire women who sacrifice to raise kids.

    (But getting a husband and bearing kids depends on factors outside a woman’s control. This smacks of Hagar mocking Sarai and Peppina mocking Hannah.)

    People who feel successful do not say the nasty stuff the Truth did. Not the Truth In Love obviously. Ha ha.

    I hope I didn’t say something unduly harsh to her without realizing it. There was someone posting under that moniker here, I believe.

    I know Lea and others will say, “Who cares? She sounds catty and mean.”

    If she acts catty and mean that’s her problem. If I don’t act like a Christian that’s MINE.

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  79. I know Lea and others will say, “Who cares? She sounds catty and mean.”

    She does sound catty and mean. That doesn’t mean it can’t still be hurtful.

    It does depend on factors outside your control, but then again I know a number of women who got ‘oops’ pregnant and married that way. Would I get extra points if I had done that? I just think it’s judging based on stupid criteria. I want to be married, but I don’t want to be married to just anybody and I’m not going to do the things that would make that happen.

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  80. I sort of failed to master the proper techniques to “land a husband” the way other girls at Indiana Wesleyan did. A lot of these techniques involved flattery, concealing any God-given personality traits that guys find intimidating, and other forms of manipulation and borderline deceit.

    My friends who also “failed” were too smart and didn’t conceal it or play head games with guys they liked. My BFFL complained, “Guys can’t handle the truth!”

    Back in the 90’s when we were still marriageable women weren’t supposed to be “pro-active” like some arrogant married millennial condemns us for. To my knowledge even today you don’t pursue a husband the way you would a job. I’m working on the latter now. It’s MUCH easier and prospective employers don’t get scared if I’m smart.

    Plus, I don’t have to pretend or even say I don’t want the job when in fact I do. Lots of stupid head games with dating if marriage is what you want. Even if you want a Christian guy who also is marriage minded.

    Finding a hubby (especially when there are single men around) requires more dishonesty and pretense than finding a job. That should scare everybody, but it doesn’t.

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  81. Hi Rachel, It’s really hurtful when people come on the blogs and tell you how you’re sinning or put this or that label on you. I honestly think would still be single if my now mother-in-law didn’t strongly hint that I should ask her daughter out. And, yes, the church puts single men and women in a completely different category.

    I got called angry and bitter on my personal blog, and yes, I think I’m still angry and bitter and working through past issues, but this was an excuse to just label me and steer the conversation towards me rather than deal honestly with the issues that my former denomination still has.

    Liked by 1 person

  82. By when there are single men around I mean before you are 22 or 23. (Sorry Tom and other single men–I know you exist, but you’re in the minority.) By the time a Christian woman turns 25 the odds are really stacked against her in a cut-throat marriage market with women outnumbering men by more than 10 to 1. It frequently turns nasty and involves major investments in time and money if you want to stay in the competition.

    The cream doesn’t always rise to the top in winning the beauty contest that precedes every Christian wedding. So does the scum. Catty, manipulative cheerleaders excel at dating/marriage games and win effortlessly.

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  83. Catty, manipulative cheerleaders excel at dating/marriage games and win effortlessly.

    This is not to say that everyone who marries has done anything like this. Some people are lucky. Some people are in the right place, or mindset. Eh.

    Someone asked me why I wasn’t married the other day which is always an awkward question, he asked if I was opposed, which I am not. I just said I supposed I didn’t pursue it actively. I am realizing looking back sometimes things don’t just happen. When I did have a boyfriend who would talk about ‘when we got married’ I was both too young to think it was ‘time’ and thinking he wasn’t the right person, because we fought too much. And sure enough we broke up.

    It’s interesting because I’ve been reading stuff about ‘incels’ and their explanations, which are geared towards sex not marriage, leave out so many things. You have to be around single people. You have to be clear that you’re interested (which is a wee bit more complicated for women then men). That person has to be available and interested back. Etc. If these things don’t just happen, which a lot of Christian thought seems to say will, you have to pursue things. Actively. And I think that’s what I didn’t really do.

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  84. This is a generalization. Just pointing out that being a catty, manipulative cheerleader type will give you a natural edge in the marriage market.

    I have had more success at finding dates–even proposals–online than off. Largely because I feel freer to be myself. Ironic, huh? When you register for dating sites, it’s okay to be upfront about wanting a marriage rather than messing around.

    Till after 40 when guys think they’re doing you a favor by taking you out to McDonalds and requiring pro bono hooker services in return. No thanks! 😛

    I’ll buy my own happy meal. Last I heard, real prostitutes charge a lot more than $3. And my soul is worth more than all the $$$$ in the world.

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  85. Online is easy in a way because you don’t have to determine if someone is single and looking and interested by paying attention, asking around, etc. You can just put it out there!

    Till after 40 when guys think they’re doing you a favor by taking you out to McDonalds and requiring pro bono hooker services in return.

    I’ve just tipped over 40 but have yet to accept a McDonalds date 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  86. Mark, I think Christian bachelors have a rougher time with discrimination than Christian spinsters. Though the odds are often stacked in their favor in Christian singles groups.

    Single Christian women are viewed as pathetic losers. Christian bachelors are often seen as predators. 😦 Or so I hear.

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  87. Hey Rachel, if you live near a Whataburger, you can convince a date to take you there this week and potentially get free food for a year!

    The #WhataloveContest is looking for ‘Whatacouples’ to share their fine dining experiences at Whataburger with the world by posting photos of themselves on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram and using the #WhataloveContest hashtag. If you’re picked, you’ll win free dates to Whataburger for an entire year.

    Liked by 1 person

  88. Yes, I think women as seen as potentially being too picky or odd, but I think the view of men who are unmarried >25 or so is that they have some major sin issue that is lurking under the surface.

    I was told that in a not so direct way – “God is still working on something in your life” was the euphemism. Apparently there were a number of these sorts of people who were “shocked” when I got engaged.

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  89. Mark, I am admittedly odd or eccentric and have given up on trying to normalize myself and fit in. I would if I could though. I hate being different! Lonelier than a black hole in outer space.

    Far from picky I border on desperation. Almost married an immature, needy man-child. Then later an abuser. I struggled with breaking off these engagements because I felt a dried up old maid like me was lucky to find anyone at all. Everyone in my church seemed to think so too.

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  90. It’s no better being married. Recently my priest (Orthodox) responded to my thyroid lump with this statement “Everyone has to die of something” and refused to anoint me with oil. 2 weeks later my husband developed a vision problem and the priest immediately raced to get the oil to anoint him. When I told the priest I was hurt by his indifference to my health issue, he accused me of having no compassion for my husband.

    I am also childless. When I was suffering about this, the same priest told me that God was probably sparing me having a evil child.

    It’s been shocking and extremely hurtful, but also enlightening. I believe the Lord is teaching me to be attached only to Him and not to these conflicted shepherds with their own unaddressed ignorance and sinfulness.

    p.s. I had been anointing it myself with oil from a myrrh-streaming icon that was visiting from Russia. I got the biopsy results back a couple days ago. Not just benign, but normal tissue. My doctor told me he would have bet anyone it was going to be malignant. Glory to God and prayers for his callous priest.

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  91. To June R – It’s a very mixed post that you had. That Priest really needs some kind of Spiritual attitude adjustment. I can’t understand why people can be so mean. But it had a happy ending about you applying the oil yourself and being miraculously healed! I’m sorry that I’m not understanding what myrrh-streaming icon visiting from Russia is.

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  92. I am a 55 year old single male, never married heterosexual. I have also received the cold shoulder at the Baptist Church. Celibate until 26 years old. For last 25 years I have gone to churches with no single people involved. Will receive 18 million for sale of family business. I will give tithe the Baptist Church 10 cent on how they have treated me. Thanks for letting me say this.

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  93. I stopped going to church I didn’t need gosup and I felt like I didn’t belong . So I stopped going to church.

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  94. As of now I have not been going to any church in last month or two. Sad to say that I don’t miss going to church. Though I would like to find a place that I can look forward to go to. Just like my sister has found a great place to go (I posted that last January). My sister, lots of times, will skip church because she’s very busy and tired. I think it’s a trick from Satan because the Devil wants you to stay away from good fellowship like what she has (or claims she has).

    I find that searching for churches are very daunting to me. It tires me out. And then I would go to one because it sounds good. It wouldn’t take much time for me to not like it. There are about five or six churches within a mile from where I live. I didn’t like any of them. And now there are so many new churches that crop up and are all alike. They all have to have that “hard rock” with their worship. For someone like me who is upper middle-aged, it’s not very appealing. Perhaps the churches nowadays want to have young people come in, so they try to entertain them. And then push the older people out. That’s a terrible mistake.

    It would seem like in the near future, there’s going to be a lot of “baby boomer” aged people and a little bit younger who are going to be an ideal market to tap for churches because, with the way churches are going these days, lots of them are going to be unchurched. (ATTENTION: TO THOSE WHO ARE WANTING TO PLANT A CHURCH AND HOPE IT WILL BE SUCCESSFUL – READ THIS PARAGRAPH!).

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  95. 52 and still single but am a male; and because I fight a losing battle to porn I have come to the conclusion that I maybe the only man God rejected when I turn to Jesus to save me.
    Still a virgin but addicted to porn; God way of saying that i am so worthless I can’t enjoy the real thing. But I will be judge for this lowly sin.
    Not only in this life for all I see is His harsh judgment but in hell eternally.

    I have come to realize that God and the church hate singles.

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  96. LoserEJ,

    God doesn’t hate singles. I do agree that the church does have problems in how it deals with singles. Have you tried any sex addiction support groups? I have heard they have been helpful. Sometimes when you are able to get control over challenging areas of your life, you are better able to have good and healthy relationships. I wish you well. Please keep us posted!

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  97. Tom, “It would seem like in the near future, there’s going to be a lot of “baby boomer” aged people and a little bit younger who are going to be an ideal market to tap for churches”

    Statistically speaking, Baby Boomers are the most into the rock-style worship. My GenX pastor is into it because the dead church he grew up in was hymns and his reaction was to be as far away from that as possible. I think that’s a pretty typical response. Now, though, the late GenX and Millennials are turning the pendulum back towards deeper liturgical-style worship.

    I honestly don’t think this is about entertainment at all. It’s about trying to encourage an experience where people can connect to God on an emotional level, when generations before there was sort of this cold orthodox feel of going through the motions, but not really connecting. I went from a conservative church to a church with a rock band, and initially, it was pretty emotional and at some point, I started checking out of that and it went back to mostly going through the motions again, so I don’t think there is anything uniquely wonderful about different musical experiences.

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  98. Mark: Now, though, the late GenX and Millennials are turning the pendulum back towards deeper liturgical-style worship.

    I am one of those younger genx people and I adore hymns and have switched to a more liturgical style church. They also don’t yammer on about families incessantly in sermons, and people’s kids, and golf games. So that is nice.

    anna:I stopped going to church I didn’t need gossup and I felt like I didn’t belong

    I’m sorry about that. Every once in a while I hear that someone has wondered about something (like a picture with a guy on facebook) but I find it more bemusing than anything. Of course, there is a difference between curiosity and malicious gossip.

    LoserEJ, I’m not sure if you’re seeking advice or venting, but it’s possible the porn is impeding your ability to connect with people in real life. I hope that you are able to work through it.

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  99. LoserEJ, “Still a virgin but addicted to porn; God way of saying that i am so worthless I can’t enjoy the real thing.”

    NO, NO, NO!!!! God is not punishing you for this. There are good people who are married and there are wicked people who are married. If God somehow reserves marriage for those who are worthy, then how could we explain the wife abusers/wife murderers that we’ve seen in history?

    For me, two things that brought me to tears on my knees before God were suicide and porn. Marriage isn’t a magic fix-it for them either. Life wasn’t suddenly worth living once I got married, and neither did sex fix all my urges. I had to recognize when certain thought patterns started and I tried immediately to bring them before God and ask for help. Even after God gave me “victory” over porn, I still struggle with other porn-like attitudes – mostly objectifying women – and still have to check my thoughts.

    We have no idea why God is bringing you through this, but please, please don’t think that marriage is going to solve it, or that God is somehow barring you from marriage because you have unresolved sin in your life.

    Look for other outlets for your energy and try to remove the temptation. Take walks, find activities you can enjoy with others (as an introvert, I know this can be tough). Try putting your computer in a public place. Maybe buy one of the “family” internet blocking services.

    This is such a huge problem in the Christian church that now ministries are faced with either having to take a stand against it and kick employees out left and right, or figure out how to deal with the problem in-house, so you are definitely definitely not alone here.

    Liked by 1 person

  100. @Mark:

    Yes, I think women as seen as potentially being too picky or odd, but I think the view of men who are unmarried >25 or so is that they have some major sin issue that is lurking under the surface.

    “Sin issue lurking under the surface” as in stage whisper: (“HOMOSEXUALITY(TM”))? Their shock at hearing of your engagement would fit that pattern.

    Long ago I came to the conclusion that Christians are just as screwed-up about sex as everyone else, just in a different (and usually opposite) direction.

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  101. Quote from Mark: Statistically speaking, Baby Boomers are the most into the rock-style worship. My GenX pastor is into it because the dead church he grew up in was hymns and his reaction was to be as far away from that as possible. I think that’s a pretty typical response. Now, though, the late GenX and Millennials are turning the pendulum back towards deeper liturgical-style worship.

    Wow! I find that very surprising! I didn’t think that anyone I knew around my age really liked that “rock” style of music in church. However, it seems like the ones around my age and older (I’m 61) didn’t care for it. I guess that I must be of the cut-off age for that kind of music preference.

    As I recall, when I was in my early to mid 20s, it seemed like Christian Rock was very popular. And those around my age, at that time, seemed to prefer churches that would have that as a format. But there were not many of those back then as there is today. I kind of liked it in the beginning when I became born again at 23. After about a couple of years, I didn’t care for the rock music of Christianity. I understand about how the music can be emotional; more so than that Traditional style. Come to think of it, I don’t recall churches trying to go into “Woodstock” style of worship back in the early 1970s. However, the late Chuck Smith founded Calvary Chapel – a place where hippies could worship when they were not accepted at churches (sound familiar about single people today?).

    At the last church I attended (which must have been about three months ago) they had two services – “Classical” & “Contemporary”. I went to the classical and there were older people there. The music was done by the “Praise Band”, so to me it wasn’t much different than Contemporary. It seemed weird to me to have a contemporary style music while singing old hymns.

    As for me, as of now, I have not attended a church in the last three months or so. I don’t miss church that much. But I feel like something’s missing. Yet, I really felt like something was missing when I was going to church. I have been doing a lot of reading lately on “I don’t feel like going to church anymore”, which I have found numerous articles about it on Google.

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  102. @Tom, Here’s a quote from a Masters’ Thesis on predicting the worship styles that a specific member would prefer:

    Since the late 1950s and early 1960s popular music has become an important way for many people to distinguish themselves from others (Frith, 1981, 1987a). Specifically, the boomer generation believed their music is what set them apart from previous generations and allowed them to view themselves in a positive manner (Hamilton, 1999). A generation that found its youthful identity in music would look for religious identity in music as well, and it was quite clear that if those from the boomer generation were to come back to the churches and religion they had previously shunned, this identity (i.e., their music) would need to come with them. And so began the Jesus Movement.

    Rock-n-roll was simple and it allowed for the expression of deep emotions. Most of all, it gave voice to values and ideas, as well as longings and anxieties. This music was, for the baby boom generation, their means for articulating their identity, marking their place in society (Hamilton, 1999) and communicating what they believed. Since music was extremely important to baby boomers and the vehicle they used to communicate, it was apparent that if they were to become involved in the church, the church needed to use music as a means of communication. Thus, Jesus Rock was born (Romanowski, 1992). Since its inception, Jesus Rock (which is better known as Contemporary Christian Music) has continued to change and reflect our society and culture.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiRwrf3ydvbAhUD4IMKHfpbDLcQFghiMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fengagedscholarship.csuohio.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1653%26context%3Detdarchive&usg=AOvVaw127fbjWx–cnm18iOCRVc1

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  103. @HUG, I never heard hints like that, but I was also being looked at as a leader at that point.

    @Tom, I think that each generation has a character that is based on societal influences and technology. I am officially X, but as far as societal influences and technology are concerned, I’m probably closer to a millennial, because my area got hit with the GenX economic downtown years earlier than the rest of the US, and I had access to technology around the same age as millennials because my dad was into tech.

    I feel like God pushed me into a new church and then let me read stuff about why people don’t attend church and I realized in retrospect that I probably was a good candidate for walking out of organized religion.

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  104. God does not hate you! He sent His only begotten Son Jesus, Whom He loved to set us all free from sin. Even the sins that latch onto us.

    Your message made me want to cry. I’m praying for you, Jonny.

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  105. Ya’ll Desiring God has a ridiculous tweet out today;

    “The best newlyweds are not people who have been chasing marriage for years, but people who have been chasing Jesus and found a spouse along the way.”

    From the same people who will tell you you’re not a real adult if not married eyeroll

    Like

  106. Desiring God site said,

    “The best newlyweds are not people who have been chasing marriage for years, but people who have been chasing Jesus and found a spouse along the way.”

    Lea said,

    From the same people who will tell you you’re not a real adult if not married eyeroll

    They’re complementarian, I believe.

    Yes, not only do most Christians (wrongly) associate being an adult with being married (as if single adults over the age of 30 are children), but, they seem to try to define “biblical womanhood” to mean “married woman.”

    They leave no room for women who never marry or who divorce or who are widowed.

    I don’t need to be married to a man to be a woman. I’m already a woman on my own. I already reflect God on my own, sans a human man on my arm.

    Liked by 1 person

  107. I have been chasing Jesus. But what if God knows i can serve Him better without a husband? I’ll just focus on pleasing Him instead of those legalistic weirdos. He knows more than John Piper and Al Mohler I guess.

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