Last Friday, I completed my second term at college and then had a fun visit with Kathi (Kathi helps me on the SSB Facebook page) on Friday and Saturday. Today, for the first time ever, I became a “former homeschooling mom” as I sent all my kids to public school – two for the very first time.
At Kathi’s suggestion, I think I’m going to pull back a bit from the blog this week and take a break from writing new posts. It will be good to have some down time while my family is adjusting to this new season of our lives.
Posts will resume on Sunday with our SSB weekly gathering, but I will keep this blog post open for discussion (and will join in, too).
So, have at it – talk about whatever you like, post articles that you come across, share what’s on your heart.
135 thoughts on “SSB Open Discussion”
Very interesting post you wrote to me.
So were the Northern Baptist less Calvinistic and Southern Baptist more Calvinistic?
Was the Civil War was fought between Northern Baptist/Christians and the self-professed Southern Baptist/Christians who were mainly Calvinist who’s views dominated the people of the South?
If that were the case then the Southern Calvinist somehow must of view themselves above elite status more like divine elite status. And somehow Calvinism and Slave ownership didn’t contradict their Doctrine instead it complimented their Doctrine/Methodology.
This essentially means the Calvinist were practicing a strange Reformed Holistic approach of controlling Mind, Body and Spirit of humans. If you didn’t conform you either got whipped or if you weren’t a slave you got shunned. (the start of Succession)
Many Calvinist may have finally denounced no free will Slavery they still want to leave Free-Will out of the equation when it comes to faith. (or the elitist view of Salvation before Faith)
Neo-Calvinist are doing the same thing today taking a no prisoners approach of force feeding their Pharisee elitist views. (if you don’t embrace Calvinism are you really saved?)
I applaud Peter’s efforts to expose Calvinistic Fallacies but it seems those among the SBC Leadership that support Peter’s views have been dragging their feet since Adrian Rodgers passed away which opened the doors for Albert Mohler to take full control causing those of us who don’t embrace Calvinism to become more oppressed.
This sort of reminds me of the Japanese guy in the Philippines that years later had no idea that WWII had ended.
Or, in the Beverly Hillbillies that grannie still had confederate money that she wanted to use at the grocery store.
Someone needs to tell the SBC that the North won!
Mark, I don’t think any of this is as black and white as we would like it to be as in the North thought this and the South thought that….sort of foundation. If you trace the trajectory of Puritan doctrine to the founding of our country and up to the civil war, it is all over the place. Puritan descendants becoming Universalists or “Congregationalists”. Presbyterians becoming Baptists, etc, etc. Separatist and Particular strains all arguing over who owns Roger Williams. :o)
To further illustrate how nuanced it all is, Finney was a Presbyterian! He is now the whipping boy for the Reformed movement. He is evil incarnate to them for his revivals, altar calls, sinners prayers, etc. And he was on the stump talking the evils of slavery and became the president of Oberlin College…founded to admit both black and white. Yet, he ruined Christianity in America according to the current Reformed guys.
Take Harriet Beecher Stowe as another example. She was raised Calvinist. Her father, an ardent Calvinist, became president of Lane Seminary and ended up in a horrible “ecclesiastical trial” over his own supposed “heresy”. (See how this works?) His daughter ends up writing not only Uncle Tom’s Cabin but also “the Ministers Wooing” which is basically a critique of the Calvinism she was raised in. But the Calvinists will claim “Uncle Toms Cabin” written by a Calvinist. She was rethinking it all that time.
So, what are those people? Calvinists? According to Calvinists of their time, they were heretics.The mainline Presbyterians went social justice– sort of burying the determinism in good works and education.
Very few folks can live with pure determinism without tweaking it to fit their situation and I think historically that is what has happened. In fact, I would say that dualism itself provides the means to do so easily: “Spiritually they are good. But their Humanness is bad”. As dualism separates us from ourselves into “spiritual vs material”
And we wonder why America has thousands of “Christian” denominations. :o)
” I applaud Peter’s efforts to expose Calvinistic Fallacies but it seems those among the SBC Leadership that support Peter’s views have been dragging their feet since Adrian Rodgers passed away which opened the doors for Albert Mohler to take full control causing those of us who don’t embrace Calvinism to become more oppressed.”
Irony alert. From what I have read on blog comments from Adrian’s son, he is basically a Calvinist who buys into some of the determinism/dualism but he is hard to understand, too. I get the feeling he is trying a bit to reposition his dads doctrines. However, I was never a student of Rogers and only know what people link to today to explain his views. When I used to read Calvinist pastor blogs, he would pop in to respond to someone who quoted his dad.
And lastly, based upon my experiences up close and personal, I don’t think mega church pastors become mega church pastors staying “humble servants”. I think that is impossible due to the nature of the institutional growth.
I read of the “airport” meeting concerning Paige Patterson and Criswell in Joel Gregory’s book and realized many folks positioned Rogers in such a way to ignore facts. These guys all saw themselves as “God’s anointed” ones even though some were nicer about it than others in public.
You have illustrated to me complexities of Calvinist history dating 400 years back. It is complicated. Some of the sinful abuses practiced in churches today may have been inspired by Puritans and the Calvinist Movements.
in truth the act of Free Will, Revivals, Alter Calls and Sinner’s prayers is a major problem to the Calvinist. It minimizes Calvinist view of a Works, Law and Sin Centered Theology that they and the so-called Patriarch Movements embrace.
Their works based philosophy focuses on self rather than Christ.
I argued to a Calvinist that the thief on the cross conversion was instantaneous, to which they had no answer. The true meaning of parable of the workers in the vineyard must really stick to their ribs. Matt. 20 1-16
Mod note: One comment was not approved. If you have a problem with a specific blog/blogger, please take it up with them directly. Thanks!
I would like to, but they have me on permanent moderated status, for one, and secondly, if I do speak out on their blog, I am out numbered by several to one. 😦
I just see this tendency even on Christian blogs that specialize in spiritual abuse to equate disagreement on a social or religious topic to be construed as “hate,” which is troubling. It can put a damper on people feeling that they cannot speak freely, which is what some abusive churches do, too.
Well, please do not bring your personal issues of one blog to this blog. That’s just not cool.
It’s not just their blog in particular, I see it on other Christian blogs, like ones about spiritual abuse, or ones by progressive Christians.
Wow, talk about a woman who stands by her man! Can’t wait for her part 2.
Now, we probably should note that she got a nudge from hubby to write that, and I am not sure that she is the one who wrote it. It could be Doug. Would Patriarchy families allow the wife to do this?
Last I remember, his own attorney has tried to keep him as silent as possible in the wake of Lourdes’ civil complaint against him. But he is obviously not one to remain silent, even when he has the right to do so.
This is a guy that repented, and then called Lordes a liar. That’s a big “huh?” for me.
This is gonna get interesting.
Ed, you crack me up. I’ve been hearing a few people speculate that the wording sounds like Doug, so you may be on to something. I suspect Doug doesn’t have permission to talk publicly because of the lawsuit.
Goodness, I stepped away for a day and a half, and now there are so many subtopics in the thread that I can’t catch up. Am I the only Southern Baptist here? I think that if people are drawing conclusions about what Southern Baptists believe by reading blogs that are dominated by Calvinist-leaning SBs, then I can see why people think that Calvinism is taking over the whole convention. As an active member of a SB congregation, I am not seeing that. You have to keep in mind that active participants in blog conversations are only representative of that particular group.
I’m a member of an SBC affiliated church that had a stealth Neo_Reformed something leave his Reformed footprint firmly left intact after he resigned.
Though you may not have Neo-Calvinism infiltrating your church (yet) it will eventually sneak in. And it may be as simple as the kind of Sunday School curriculum your church uses.
Be patient and give it a little more time, the Reformed are just around the corner getting ready to join your fellowship.
I’ve been having problems with letters and words skipping around my keyboard. If I forget to re-read my statement sorry about my typos..
Mark, I’ll keep an eye out for typos and fix them. No worries.
I don’t want to plant fear into everybody that Calvinists are around every corner. That’s kind of like what JD Hall did in his Arminian nightmare book for children. I think there are a lot of decent churches out there who will stand on their 2 feet and not let errant doctrine come in. The bottom line is that we need to be good Bereans ourselves.
Good Bereans with a good knowledge of the day’s new catch phrases, and the origination of them.
For example: Saving Faith, Irresistible Grace
Those terms sound great, to an outsider not knowing what is meant. That’s the stealth part.
Having a preacher ask the congregation a rhetorical question, “Isn’t grace irresistible? You can’t resist it, can you?”
Now, to me, I can’t resist a good cup of coffee, but that is NOT the same as the teaching of Irresistible Grace. I can resist a cup of coffee. And, yes, I can resist grace. But not according to the doctrines of grace.
Stealth is a good word in this. We need to be smarter than the adversary who tries to convert a church. Otherwise, people will go along with it unwittingly.
“Am I the only Southern Baptist here?”
Holding hand up. But I have left recently.
” I think that if people are drawing conclusions about what Southern Baptists believe by reading blogs that are dominated by Calvinist-leaning SBs, then I can see why people think that Calvinism is taking over the whole convention. As an active member of a SB congregation, I am not seeing that. You have to keep in mind that active participants in blog conversations are only representative of that particular group.”
Well, I live at ground zero so my experience is going to be different. I was in about the only SBC church that had not been completely taken over but not for trying. For years SBTS students would come to volunteer and our pastor would say: I don’t think you would be happy here. We have women deacons, we vote on budgets and every member has a vote, etc. And no, they would not be happy because the pastor was warning them not to cause trouble as they had in just about every church. Even splitting some right down the middle. In my sisters SBC church they volunteered to work youth group. It did not take long for them to tell the youth that the pastor “does not know the true Gospel” His kids were in the youth group. Not that they cared, of course.
We have had a tension for the last few years because hiring staff that is not Calvinistic and teaches Calvinism is near impossible here. Many are very careful to conceal it until they are settled and accepted then it changes.
Now the congregation has voted on someone I know is a Calvinist. A YRR pastor who I knew and had long talks with a year before when he was serving as youth pastor.
He claimed to the pulpit he was not a hyper Calvinist (as if that makes a difference) t and got through the process. He knows that I know he is but he fooled the pulpit committee that he is some sort of quasi Doctrines of Grace guy in line with Mohler. And he is evangelistic so it is ok. (Just like Piper’s evangelism for Calvin) His idols are Piper, Driscoll, Mohler, etc.
The problem is the pew sitters are so ignorant about it they usually have no clue for years because they use the same words but have different definitions. And our state convention is run by Calvinists who want every single SBC church here run by Calvinists and work toward that aim. The state guy was Mohler’s pick after he managed to split 2 churches over Calvinism out in the state.
They advised our pulpit committee to hire a “preacher” not a pastor. (YRR are perfect for this as they don’t have to visit the sick or get involved with actual pew sitters at all. They are only to “preach the gospel” so they are “special and set apart” from us peasants. Ed Setzer of Lifeway is actually promoting this concept all over the place)
It was a train wreck and no one realizes it or wants to know. They see a guy they like personally that makes them cry and has a move of the Holy ‘Spirit every 5 min. (He emulates Piper) In fact, I got sick of hearing everyone on stage say the Holy Spirit affirmed the candidate as if they are the Holy Spirit for me. I used the entire process to teach my kids what this looks like in action. Cult. How to recognize cult speak, cult actions and watch the grown ups just go along…to be nice. No one wants to look mean and actually ask hard questions. No one questioned the “preacher” thing outloud but many were very concerned. We cannot look “mean” you know. We are Christians and it is not nice to dissent or question. (I am so done with that stuff)
. And most of them went along. Not all, but most. Some are leaving. Not angry. just disappointed in the process and the fact it is a sin to say you are concerned about Calvinism.
Now it is all about “unity” and if you don’t agree with the Holy Spirits pick then you are divisive. So we are out. A church we have been in since we left the seeker mega circus world. It took many years but they got it. A debt free building (they love these and really go for them as the YRR cannot run them into the ground that quickly as they have done with others and less expensive than church planting for the SBC.)and pretty soon the women deacons will be gone, membership covenants will be offered under the guise of evangelistic gospel and on and on. I see it coming. (See, even if the pulpit committee is appalled a year from now, they have to save face. So it will be excuse after excuse for years until it is so bad it will be ruined)
So the “new Gospel preaching preacher” is 31, brash, untested, inexperienced and will be paid almost 6 figures. Welcome to Mohler’s SBC.
Since we left, btw, we have visited 2 CBF churches (The ones who broke off from SBC back in 80’s and are considered flaming liberals) and it was like listening to NT Wright at both. What a change! The teacher was not a celebrity. It is not about him at all. It was not “preaching” but more teaching and actual scholarship.
JA, Read chapter 4 of Quiet Revolution. (it is free on founders.org) and you will see why many ARE paranoid because they have seen Chapter 4 put into action at their church by a “new” preacher. Especially in the South. It has been a real problem. Stealth, covert take overs.
Lydia, I am so sorry to hear about that. Are you in the south? I have been told that the “southern” arm of the SBC is not overly interested in us out west. I may try to get involved in our state association at some level just to see what is going on. We have interns come and serve from time to time, but I am not aware of any trouble that has come from it. I will be on the lookout for it. Fortunately, our pastor is not a Calvinist (yes, I have had the conversation with him). We are constantly poking fun at ourselves because we have all our committees, and no one can do anything without the committee voting on it, but I think I prefer that kind of system to one where a single individual has the power and/or authority to make decisions for the whole congregation. Another problem with “Calvinism” is that you almost have to nail people down to a definition when the subject comes up. There is a Calvinism Spectrum, if you will, that seems to run from the ordinary pew-sitter Presbyterian at one end, to the Westboro cult at the other end. The biggest problem that I see with it is, it is a theological system developed by men.
I am sure Doug was behind that whole response. Does his wife generally make open remarks like that? Was she actually on the board? Perhaps she was allowed to serve coffee? Something smelled while I read her response. It sounded more like the writing of an abused woman with a gun to her head.
I think a problem, at least for me, is that pastors like John Piper who declare Calvinism as the best thing ever and his church being in the SBC doesn’t help. He is high profile and people listen to him like he was a god. I grew up in a Baptist convention that had broke away from the SBC. I was told because the SBC was allowing women preachers. I was really too young to care at the time, but believed what I was told. I have never been to an SBC church so I won’t make any opinions on it other than specific incidents that I know of first hand. I have been in a few of Beth Moore’s studies and quite honestly the first time I watched her on a dvd I kept thinking to myself, “Why is this woman preaching to me?”. I think the hierarchy of the SBC may be wanting to inject Calvinism into the church and the smaller churches need to be on the lookout.
So the “new Gospel preaching preacher” is 31, brash, untested, inexperienced and will be paid almost 6 figures.
So the preacher/pastor of the church will be making most likely more than the majority of the members of the church. What is it that he is being paid for? Inexperience certainly doesn’t get a person that kind of money. I know that Jesus was preaching at 31, but seeing he is the Son of God gave him special authority and he was not given a salary. That, of course, was a special case. My church does have a youth pastor who is 33 and has been in that role for about 5 years now. He is humble and great with the kids. Neither of the pastors make anywhere near 6 figures.
Bystander, Yes I live at ground zero for YRR Calvinism where SBTS is. I practically grew up around SBTS folks so the difference from then and now is quite glaring.
“I have been told that the “southern” arm of the SBC is not overly interested in us out west.”
I don’t know who told you that but it is not true. The SBC/NAMB has been trying to plant churches in the North and West. And it is more likely the plants do not call themselves a SBChurch so not as noticeable. It is just not as easy because the culture is different. The state associations are tiny compared to Southern states. There is the whole money angle, too, which drives all of it. The SBC is slowly going downhill financially. It does not help they put mega church pastors in positions of power in the entities whose churches gave very little to the Cooperative Program.
So their only qualification is a big church that gave very little to the SBC for missions (because they did their own thing) but the pastor is a celebrity or a loyal yes man to Mohler. The CP is the only reason the SBC exists in the first place. Just recently David Platt was named International Mission Board President. Seriously? That blows my mind and shows me how bad it really is in the SBC.
The NAMB President is Kevin Ezell who used to be pastor of a mega church here where Mohler went. Ezell was one of those who covertly took his church elder led. (Russ Moore was the teaching pastor there when Ezell left if that gives you any indication). Ezell’s mega church gave a whopping $10000 to the CP the year he became NAMB pres. (If I have my years right). And compare that to a rural church called Hopewell with less than 100 members that gave 30,000. So why was Ezell qualified? Giving is a percentage. Because Ezell is a Mohler yes man and on board with the Reformed only Acts 29 which they poured money into.
So if your church is giving money to the CP, you are indirectly supporting not only Mohler but the salaries of all those mega church CP leaders including Moore and Joe Carter at ERLC. And Moore is scary when it comes to women and hierarchies. And they are all paid well. How many missionaries could they send with all those high salaries and bureaucrates who work there? NAMB was a money pit for years when Bob Reccord was there. Insiders making tons of money off royalties having first dibs on everything published. My dad was even designating back in the 90’s and beyond because it was all so corrupt.
” We are constantly poking fun at ourselves because we have all our committees, and no one can do anything without the committee voting on it, but I think I prefer that kind of system to one where a single individual has the power and/or authority to make decisions for the whole congregation.”
Hee Hee. That is VERY Baptistic. And I agree it is preferable to individuals having the power. It was the way I was raised: Holy Priesthood and soul competency. Freedom/equality/responsibility was huge back then. Drilled into our heads
“Another problem with “Calvinism” is that you almost have to nail people down to a definition when the subject comes up. There is a Calvinism Spectrum, if you will, that seems to run from the ordinary pew-sitter Presbyterian at one end, to the Westboro cult at the other end. The biggest problem that I see with it is, it is a theological system developed by men.”
It changes monthly. Now the word on the street is they are backing off trying to convert churches to elder led only where basically the pastor chooses his own yes men. They were getting bad reputation for doing that covertly in too many churches without congregational vote and now the Mohler folks are saying those were only “bad calvinists” doing their own thing. (Not true, they were taught to do it because the pew sitters need firm hand and don’t know the right church structure. These grads come out of seminary convinced most SBC churches do not know the true Gospel) But the truth is it started becoming a PR problem for SBTS/SEBTS and churches starting not interviewing their graduates.
Many SBC churches have became Spiritual Oligarchies with those who stayed. The church plants have big turnover. I get letters/emails every month from some Acts 29/Sojourn church plants in other states begging for money. How did they get my name? And why ask for money outside the CP/NAMB who funded the start up? When people give to their SBC church it is to fund such things. They don’t expect to be contacted outside of that to fund such things. Sojourn is paying the MH guys big bucks to be “event pastor” and other silly titles. So what is going on with the money?
The pewsitters are not asking enough questions and demanding accountability from the mega star leaders and bureaucrats.Things have changed. When I was a kid, the pew sitters considered themselves equal to the task and qualified to receive answers. That is not the attitude anymore at all. I think our entire culture has changed and people want to be “taken care of” both physically and spiritually.
“I know that Jesus was preaching at 31, but seeing he is the Son of God gave him special authority and he was not given a salary. ”
Brenda, When ever someone trots out age as not a problem as we have heard over and over in the YRR world, I wish they would understand the context of that in the 1st century.
Jesus being 30 was significant in Hebrew culture. It was necessary for him to begin at age 30. Remember he came for the lost tribe of Israel first. Thirty was significant because that was when those studing under a Rabbi went out on their own, so to speak, as fully vested Rabbi’s. It was a cultural Jewish thing. And 30 back then would be more akin to 45 or 50 today in terms of basic maturity. There was no such thing as a “teen” back then. Only boy/man. And men started working around ages 12-13 if they had been educated. Younger for those who were not.
And just like that being a cultural thing which God often works within all through the OT, Jesus as a woman would have been impossible in that culture because a woman’s testimony only counted if there were 3 women. Women were not allowed to learn at the feet of a Rabbi either. Jesus just turned all that on its head.
Jewish boys started studying under a Rabbi at age of 7. If they were not suited or the “cream of the crop” they usually went to work with their fathers at age 14 or so. That is why the Apostles are so interesting. They were not cream of the crop. They were all working jobs when Jesus called them. (I think that is on purpose). The only one who qualified as a Rabbi was Paul and ironically, he was later and was sent to the Genitles with all his rabbinical qualfications! I am often amused with this. The Gentiles were not as impressed with his Rabbinical training under the great Gamaliel. The Judaizers were, though, as Paul trotted it out to rebuke them at one point.
So who was Jesus’ Rabbi? Can anything good come from Nazareth? Jesus kept referring to His father as the one telling him what to do which meant he was equating himself as equal to God. All these things fall into place to show the radical position of Jesus Christ in that culture. I love it.
There is no way to map that context to today. It has a specfic meaning in the culture. Just like with youngTimothy who was left in Ephesus, teaching in a Gentile culture who were more impressed with experienced sage like philosopher kings. It always cracks me up that Paul rented the Hall of Tyrannus in Ephesus who many scholars identify as a Greek Sophist and had traveling Greek orators would teach in the mornings. And there is Paul, teaching the Gospel in the hot afternoons.
Youth and inexperience being given power is a huge problem in our culture. In that culture youth was often paired with older experienced seasoned men for a time.
In that culture youth was often paired with older experienced seasoned men for a time.
Which makes far more sense to me, Lydia. Most, not all, young men do not possess the maturity to handle the situations that arise with the flock. The best pastors that I ever had never went to seminary, worked a 40 hour week, got a very small salary from the church (it was a very small poor church), but they knew their stuff when teaching Christ and dealing with people.
During the transitional times in our church, we had 3 Preachers who came from south of the Mason-Dixon Line. We are in Alaska.
The SBC is in all 50 states and Calvinism is spreading fairly rapidly into each individual State Convention. Some are less toxic than others.
It is interesting to read of ancient cultures. There was no such thing as “Teens” hanging out together unless siblings or something like that. I am not suggesting we stop that but that we perhaps moderate it a bit with other things. Easier said than done, of course! It seems to delay their development and maturity. Where do they learn to be adults and take on responsibility? From each other? I think not. :o)
Now they come to seminary to be “indoctrinated” in a bubble of group think before they ever learned any real critical thinking skills and applications. A recipe for disaster. They expect high salaries right off the bat AND to be respected and PAID by people twice their age because they are in the pulpit. More disaster.
Wow Mark I had no idea you were in Alaska. In fact, I know a guy who was up there after seminary but did not stay long. :o(
I grew up Washington and spent the majority of my adult life in Alaska. Didn’t get blind-sided from Reformed Theology until 2009.
With my Catholic upbringing, I see a lot of similarity with Reformed Doctrine both of which surround their Theology in a state of Unworthiness, Doubt, Works, Law and Sin Centered minimizing what Christ did.
Although the Catholics gave far more credit to what Christ for the redemption of our sins than the Stealth Neo-Calvinst that surfaced in our SBC affiliated church.
I am still trying to keep up with the SBC part of this thread.
Financially, the Lifeway organization has been selling off assets in the west; apparently we are a drain on them. They sold Grand Canyon University about ten years ago, and Glorieta more recently (many New Mexico SBs are still smoldering about that), because they couldn’t afford to maintain them (so they said). I don’t think Glorieta had enough use to make it self-supporting, although it was beautiful and I have great memories of the place. I am aware of some local SB congregations that are having problems of one kind or another, but no one is mentioning doctrine as being one of those problems. We do support missions, but I don’t remember how much (if any) we contribute to the CP. In all honesty, I have never heard the names Al Mohler, Russell Moore, Joe Carter or Kevin Ezell mentioned at my church. I only know who they are because I read a lot and visit blogs. David Platt we know, because some of our small groups used some of his books for a study on missions. Some of us like them, some didn’t. I agree that the rank-and-file church member is sadly underinformed about leadership (not just in the SBC, but other churches as well), but I think, to an extent, these kinds of debates have been going on in Christianity since the last apostle died. Some of the things you mentioned (getting pleas for money and event pastors) are totally unknown to me. Who gives most of the funds for church plants, the NAMB or the mother church that is doing the planting? My understanding is, when our church plants another one, most of the support is coming from us.
Bystander, I knew about Glorietta. I went there once when I was about 10.
“Who gives most of the funds for church plants, the NAMB or the mother church that is doing the planting? My understanding is, when our church plants another one, most of the support is coming from us”
That is really as it should be for church planting as your church is doing it. But ask different SBC bureaucrats how it is done and you get different answers about the money. That has been one of the problems. But the SBC definitely had/has some sort financial arrangement with Acts 29. That has been a thorn in some sides because Acts 29 only plants Reformed churches as they admit in their charter. And many SBC’ers in the pews are not Reformed and have no idea their money is going to plant exclusively Reformed churches. So now Acts 29 kicked out Driscoll. Good PR move.
I will definitely be keeping my eyes and ears open. Can you point me toward some further information I can read up on about some specifics, other than peoples’ blogs? People are free to write whatever they want to on their blogs, so that kind of material is not something that I am concerned about unless it crosses the line between opinion (or experience) and defamation. I can live with knowing that some of my brothers and sisters in Christ are Calvinists, but if there is something specific to be concerned about (such as violations of ethical standards or abuses of power) it’s good to have original source material.
“Can you point me toward some further information I can read up on about some specifics, other than peoples’ blogs?”
Wish I could. Reporting numbers, dollars, etc by line item is not forthcoming. Niether is strategies. That is why it has taken folks so long to connect dots from what has been reported over and over on different blogs.