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Two Influential Christian leaders offer diverse responses regarding (1) professional counseling and (2) response to [adult] children with same-sex issues or identity.
Christiandom tends to follow church leaders when it comes to difficult life issues. Earlier, when reading an article at Religion News Service (RNS) by Adelle M. Banks, Russell Moore answers all you wanted to know about sex (but were afraid to ask), I was actually surprised to read a couple of things from Russell Moore. Russell Moore is President of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission. In this position, he has a big platform from which to share his opinion in conservative Christianity circles. Here is one of the excerpts that surprised me:
In March, Moore took on the topic of a sexless marriage, raised by a pastor of a small congregation, approached by a woman whose new husband had refused sex in the eight months since they wed.
“It seems that I am finding more and more young couples having sexual difficulties,” Moore said at the time.
In his response, Moore was direct. “This is a marriage in crisis,” he wrote.
Among his suggestions: Seek professional counseling to learn whether there was some unresolved trauma in the man’s life.
Seek professional counseling? It doesn’t say Biblical counseling or even Christian counseling, but professional counseling. What a nice surprise. I wonder if he will get any heat from that statement from those who believe anything other than Biblical counseling is evil – like John MacArthur. Here’s a little bit from an earlier article I did on John MacArthur regarding counseling:
Prominent church leader, John MacArthur has been very outspoken about the subject of psychology and his Master’s Seminary teaches against psychology:
Such a thing as a “psychological problem” unrelated to spiritual or physical causes is nonexistent. God supplies divine resources sufficient to satisfy completely all the spiritual needs. ~John MacArthur (Source)
John MacArthur would not encourage this man to go to professional counseling, but only to receive Biblical counseling.
Now here’s another interesting comment from Russell Moore from the RNS article, this time about parental response to gay children:
Moore has also advised parents not to reject their gay children: “Be clear about your convictions, and at the same time don’t exile your child from your life.”
This statement comes about a month or so after John MacArthur posted an article and video, “John MacArthur on How to Respond to a Homosexual Child.” The video is just under two minutes:
http://www.gty.org/blog/B140603/john-macarthur-on-how-to-respond-to-a-homosexual-child
Both of these are very powerful men in conservative Christiandom and so it’s very interesting to see these diverse statements. I will be keeping an eye on this.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
mark, are you the one that was engaging with JD in that Ronnie Floyd combox?
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dustin, I think there were 2 Mark’s, and yes I was one of them.
You must have no comment regarding my assertions that your site needs to tone down the rhetoric.
Do you think Dr, Caner isn’t aware of the views of the P & P gang? At what point do you think this targeted behavior to a grieving parent is beyond redundancy and borders predatory abuse?
I really can’t offer you anymore, that hasn’t already been offered by others.
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I don’t have a problem with Jordan engaging the son, particularly when the son came on and went on the attack.As far as referencing him as a teenager- I do know that his profile says “My name is Garrett Crawford. I am a college student at Oklahoma Baptist University who is currently majoring in Philosophy. I have a passion for Christian apologetics and defending the Christian faith on a rational basis” He also describes himself as an “avid controversial blogger.” Based on these things, I see no reason why he should not have been engaged. Are you asking me for my thoughts on the content of their discussion?
Its used to describe the tactics that Ergun has employed where he has requested video evidence of sermons and messages he gave where he was lying to be taken down and removed. Its not mocking his name, so much as it is making his name synonymous with this sort of activity.
I don’t agree with your description of the way P&P has functioned, nor your definitions that are used to describe certain people’s actions.
We can not imagine the added pressure- agreed. we also don’t even know if it resulted in added pressure. I don’t think it’s wise or prudent to speculate on such things, nor try to assert the level of exacerbation, if any, it resulted in.
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“I always have grace.”
This one cracks me up. Never mind their definition of “grace”. it is a moving target. We could go down that road of Dustin asking me what I think it is then a long black circular hole of how I don’t understand, blah, blah. No thanks.
” Though you haven’t answered the question directly, I will assume it is you.”
I am not sure I have ever read a comment stream with those guys on it that this is not in most of the comments. Translation: I am trying to reframe the debate and make it about you but you won’t let me.
” Mostly I’m asking because I have seen you launch some volleys at me on Peter’s blog, and I have wanted to respond and engage you a bit but Peter moderates….aggressively….and only lets through about 1 out of every 10 posts I put. So if it is you, hopefully we can chit-chat here with less censorship.”
Oh but they were “deceived woman” volleys so they don’t count. :o) I sorta don’t blame him as it is the same old deflection, reframing on and on. And when people just get tired and give up you claim a win. It gets old. Your movement became a bore and then went off the cliffs. Now you are in damage control mode. Sorry, I don’t play the cheap grace game. And I especially don’t care if people think I am mean because I am not buying. I think your movement is an embarrassment and I especially want people to understand it is not of Christ. “White Washed Tombs” is what He called the religious leaders of His tribe and time. History repeats it self over and over.
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If you wish to know the Caner situation, I would be more than happy to explain it to you and what our concerns are. We could apply some “In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines him” Proverbs 18 to this. Lydia, would you be open to discussing our concerns with Dr. Caner?
Because of it’s association with Hall (are his initial initials JD? I lose track.) P&P will forever be associated with unanswerable questions surrounding the suicide of Caner’s son.
Yes, Jordan Hall and JD Hall are the same person. I don’t know to what degree P&P will be associated with the death of Braxton- i guess we’ll find out over the next few years.
Likewise, wasn’t John McArthur involved in some big lawsuit or other over a suicide? Didn’t McArthur and/or his church basically just disclaim responsibility? Didn’t the courts end up taking their side so that they no longer need be concerned about any kind of meaningful accountability when their version of “truth” catastrophically fails? Help me out here. Maybe it wasn’t McArther at all. These are just questions, but whether it was McArthur or some other preacher or church, don’t I have a basis to be concerned about the dangers of these anti-secular-counseling-it’s-all-about-your-sin types present?”
i don’t know much about the JM situation, other than what I have read in his biography. I plan sometime this week on researching and reading some of the “other side” of the story from his critics to try to get both sides of the story.
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“I can confirm that I am a reformed guy who holds to the doctrines of grace, and I play nice with others who don’t share my theological convictions.”
Dustin, Stop it! I am splitting my sides here. The entire Reformation Montana and Pulpit and Pen movement is about not playing nice with those who do not share your theological convictions. Goodness gracious man, I have been reading ya’lls comments, twitters, posts for years. Are you really that dense or you expect folks here not so informed will actually believe you? Downgrade anyone? Trying to be the 21st Century Spurgeon’s but with a shoot first attitude. If folks are not in line they are part of the evil downgrade!
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“We could apply some “In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines him” Proverbs 18 to this.”
Appropriate. Setting the stage with one of CJ Mahaney’s most oft quoted verses. This one is very popular in that world. It is to set the stage for everyone else being wrong when they utter their godly words of truth.
” Lydia, would you be open to discussing our concerns with Dr. Caner?”
No thanks, know them by heart. And I think he has been dogged enough. I won’t play your sicko game with you. Why can’t you guys spread your sin sniffing attack dog act around with more balance?
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“At what point do you think this targeted behavior to a grieving parent is beyond redundancy and borders predatory abuse?”
Exactly Mark. It is a sickness. That whole movement is sick. And it went so far as to prey on teens. Now it is damage control time.
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The point I was making is that if people like the Wart and SGM Survivors hadn’t pressed the issue repeatedly over the years, and its likely that a pedophile and his enablers would never have been brought to justice. Morales is a good example of people who care and are concerned not lettings things go, even though they were minimized, disrespected, called troublemakers, marginalized, and were told to be silent and just leave it alone. I don’t think people should have left things alone with Morales, and I’m glad that people’s aren’t leaving things alone with Driscoll, and I don’t think Caner should likewise be “left alone”. We need to be consistent here.
Not sure what you’re talking about here. i wasn’t trying to be crafty or try to mis-frame an argument- just trying to explain my reasoning.
You’re conflating all sorts of different events and scenarios here. No one is kicking him while he is down. We have all extended to him our sympathies and speaking personally, I have no intention for the time being to raise any concerns with him for at least the time being.
This is an assertion- not a fact. It has nothing to do with his distaste, as least for myself. It has to with with his decade of lies and his ongoing refusal to repent or even admit he did wrong- all the while purporting to be a Christian leader. If you can’t demonstrate your assertions regarding my motives, I would ask that you qualify any future statements so that you do not misrepresent me.
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I was speaking for myself, not necessarily all different members who are part of the P&P. I definitely have some strong thoughts on many things, and I will publicly disagree with people, but I don’t get personal, nor do I get nasty- but rather I strive to be thoughtful, if at times overly blunt. 90% of the times I just let things me. For example, my current Church that I am attending is not a reformed Church and most people are still arminians, but i don’t make a big deal out of it. They’re still my brothers and sisters in Christ. I try to be reasoned and rational in what I say and do, and I hope that people can see a bit of that in my responses so far to the hostilities in this combox.
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“You’re conflating all sorts of different events and scenarios here. No one is kicking him while he is down. We have all extended to him our sympathies and speaking personally, I have no intention for the time being to raise any concerns with him for at least the time being.”
And there you have it. Dustin either cannot see it or does not want to. Yes, they are kicking wounded people. But in their world this is “love” and to NOT kick them would be “hate”. By that definition they are the little gods who get to decide.. Oh wait, they “extended sympathies” so are covered in the PR spin machine. Also with JD’s “apology/repentance” act. So now we only have to wait for the “time being” to end. How long was it for James White? A few weeks?
This stuff actually makes sense to him!
Dustin you are a young man being used by older men but cannot see it. Young men make great soldiers cos they don’t ask too many questions of their movement idols who they fight for. Many have not even met their idols for more than a handshake at a conference. You are waging a war which you will most likely be embarrassed about when you are 50.
“If you can’t demonstrate your assertions regarding my motives, I would ask that you qualify any future statements so that you do not misrepresent me.”
I don’t deal in motives. Only words and actions over time. And besides back when all this started weren’t you just finishing High School? And I don’t get into qualifying statements with what you guys write or do. It reminds me too much of Bill Clinton and the meaning of “is”. Bad memories for this old gal.
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“I was speaking for myself, not necessarily all different members who are part of the P&P. ”
Dustin, I have been reading your comments PRE JD Scandal. So you have had a huge change of heart then, too? Done a 180 also?
Ok, am done here. Done with the Dustin show. Go for it.
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“Lydia Gary, I find them (P&P, JD Hall, James White, etc) despicable and totally misrepresenting Jesus Christ in almost ALL things.”
Its a shame you feel this way. Hopefully after we get to know each other- Christian brother to a Christian sister, that you may change your mind a little.
“They do want to make it about sides because that feeds the war. If you comment here or there then you are automatically on a specific side and in total agreement. (It operates much like twitter has over Ferguson. It is Orwellian. You either agree with all of it or you are automatically placed on the opposite side and believe all they believe)”
I have not found this to be true. I do think some of my fellow contributors are a bit too hard-lined on some things, and I think it other things people necessarily must pick sides, but i think there is room for other options, and Its a shame when more of the middle ground can’t be explored.
“That is how they think even though there is a campaign right now to engage people outside their bubble since they got some discernment blogs to believe JD Hall’s instant repentance apology. Dustin here and other discernment blogs right now is PR. Not that they are good at it. But the actual war against Caner continues, if you notice.”
Again- not a PR issue. Just talking to people whenever they engage me. I always get frustrated when I want to talk to certain people and they are not available or don’t write back. If people have issues, I want to be direct things head on.
“But if I say enough is enough and Caner has suffered enough, then I am automatically endorsing sin and every single word Caner has ever uttered. See how that works?”
That’s not how it works for me. You are framing in in the context of suffering. By the same token couldn’t we say that Driscoll has suffered enough and doesn’t have to step down or say sorry anymore, because he has suffered enough? But it’s not about that.
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Alright Lydia, if it is your wish I will no longer address you directly, though I would ask that you please think about how you address me and the motives you ascribe me, and try to assume best intentions and Christian charity, as I likewise am seeking to extend to you. 🙂
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“Gary W
AUGUST 23, 2014 @ 7:45 AM
Julie Anne,
Thanks for reminding me of your article. It’s likely the the reason I was somehow associating McArthur’s name with suicide following failed counseling. And yes, I am firmly convinced that “pastors,” including John McArthur need to be able to recognize when they are in over their heads and refer to somebody who knows what they are doing. While there may be a call to deal with sin as it relates to despair, any pastor worth the name would be able to do it in love. Our Lord certainly did. There are also cases where despair is a consequence of trauma, or organic brain conditions, or any other number things where sin is not the central issue.
I am tempted to say the Love trumps truth. However, it must be recognized that without Love there is no Truth.”
This is a good point. Its true that we really can’t minimize the effect that our body or brain chemistry or physical things have on the mind. When people look at a person and just assume or infer that all their afflictions are just spiritual- that’s really damaging. Sometimes there really are physical things going on and these can’t be ignored. I have personal experience and loved ones that have experienced deep, dark, debilitating depression for example, and it was in large part caused by physical issues and if this hadn’t been properly diagnosed by a professional who didn’t just brush this off, I don’t know where we would be
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After reviewing our interesting exchange it is unclear to me that the P&P gang will ever repent, as P&P fail to recognize that your crusade to go after Dr. Caner has been excessive and sinful.
You’ll have to give me some specific examples. If you are referring to Braxton- yes, I agree that it was sinful and excessive. If you refer to a run of the mil post updating people on what the judge saying trying the Caner vs Autry, or Caner vs Smathers case, then no- I don’t think that’s sinful or excessive.
This is something to be considered and reflected upon, though in light of various circumstances, it could be said just the same to anyone.
The reason why I don’t believe Caner has repented, is because he said he hasn’t. He publicly tweeted that he has nothing to apologize and was completely exonerated, and all charges brought against him are false and that the video evidence showing him lying have been doctored. Can I not take Erguns word that he has not repented and didn’t lie?
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“Brenda R
AUGUST 23, 2014 @ 12:55 PM
I have no intention of acting out towards him (corrected spelling)
Acting out? Isn’t that what a young child does when they have been mistreated or possibly not getting their own way. If you do not believe that the exchange between the adults and Braxton was right, why are you still working with them? Shouldn’t you be going after them to repent.
I define repentance as more than changing your mind. I define it as a heart change and going in a completely different direction.”
Sorry, could have used better choice of words- the phrase “acting out” is a local colloquialism used up here in my town in Canada.
I did not think it was right. Jordan has repented and apologized, and I try to give all people the benefit of a doubt, I know that Jordan was sincere and I was proud and happy for him when he did, and quite honestly I think he modeled what it means to repent and ask for forgiveness, and I should hope to be likewise as sincere when I am confronted and in error about my own sins.
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Dustin,
I don’t think it would be “wise” or “prudent” to rule out the possibility that the exchange between Braxton and JD did in fact contribute additional pressure to the Caner Family who have already been enduring a lengthy crusade of criticism from the P & P gang. As matter of fact it would be hubris to suggest it didn’t add pressure. We truly don’t know, but JD sadly made himself vulnerable. .
We don’t agree that you should end the Caner Project. I think it should stop you don’t. I think for JD if he is going to reconcile some his own burdens it would be in his best interest to see it stop.
The term Canerize the Canerization is mockery.
After JD raised a credible concern about a questionable video at Ronnie Floyd’s church, It wasn’t going to stop there. The exchange with the young Crawford and JD was extremely immature on both their parts. (young Crawford was in over his head)
Rather than handling matters more privately that video and verbal exchange with the young Crawford stimulated the public smear campaign that lasted about week that was directed toward Ronnie Floyd.
In my view P & P was attempting to humiliate Floyd. (with Floyd being nominated for SBC Leadership, by appearance the timing of this Puplic smearing was pretty strategic)
Do you think P & P hasn’t made their views toward Dr. Caner clear to their audience, after months of excessive criticism? Do you think Dr. Caner hasn’t been aware that you doubt his repentance?
If you guys need to tone it down.
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Dustin, I am fine with this discussion because the folks here are rightly concerned about the direction of P&P and it’s future. We can still discuss JMac in this thread.
Thanks for your concern.
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Mark, I’d like to get into this more with you, as you are coming across as reasonable and thoughtful. Would you mind emailing me, Hitting me up on twitter or facebook messaging me and we could discuss this further? If not I don’t mind discussing this here, but I’d personally prefer to hash it out elsewhere because I really want to get back to the whole christian psychologist thing.
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As you will note, Dustin, I gave biblical reasons as to why you need to let this go. Unfortunately, you wish to continue your campaign. Again, I implore you to stop. You associate yourself with P&P, and therefore, you represent P&P. You need to learn biblical boundaries. You do not have biblical authority to hound anyone who does not want to hear the message that you wish to preach to them. And to that, I say, DUSTIN THE WIND. NO you do not have any authority to go beyond your boundaries. You do not have the authority to call anyone out. If any child engages you, you are to back off. If any adult child engages you, you are to back off. Your issues are not with the child. So Back off! Caner will NOT do what YOU want Caner to do. Repent is what you want from him. Ain’t gonna happen. Who are you to demand anything from anyone? Get over yourself. You do not have any authority to tell anyone to consult scripture prior to making a decision to seek therapy, or counseling, or psychiatric help. You said that someone hijacked this thread? YOU DID. So, Dustin your feet! Ain’t no repentin gonna happen, so let it go. Move On. NO ONE LIKES A SNITCH, OR A SPY, OR A TATTLE TALE, OR A TALE BEARER, AND NO ONE LIKES ANYONE WHO CAUSES STRIFE. BE A MAN AND WALK AWAY. Oh, you are not a man, huh? Just a kid still wet behind the ears, huh? Respect your elders, son! Ed
________________________________
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Dustin said: “I did not think it was right. Jordan has repented and apologized, and I try to give all people the benefit of a doubt, I know that Jordan was sincere and I was proud and happy for him when he did, and quite honestly I think he modeled what it means to repent and ask for forgiveness, and I should hope to be likewise as sincere when I am confronted and in error about my own sins.” My response: I do not believe that Jordan “repented” or apologized. But, since you think that he did, then that means that you do indeed believe that Jordon sinned, otherwise, he would have nothing to repent of, right? But, if I am not mistaken, P&P were cheer leaders of Jordan during this episode, not advisors of him to stop. So, the way that I see it, P&P, and I do believe that includes you, need to repent, too. Why? Because you accept that Jordan “repented”, which means that you agree that Jordan sinned. But how can that be since P&P were cheer leaders? Ed
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Dustin,
We can table it. This is getting a little tiresome.
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fair enough. I just wanted to point out that i agree with some of what you said and likewise will consider the rest. be blessed!
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Chapman, I will not be responding to you further, based on the overt hostility you are demonstrating towards me, manifested by your needlessly provocative tirade.If you wish to hear my thoughts on any further issues, I would ask that you apologize. Thanks and take care
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“you teach Gnosticism. ” JM could not stand three minutes with a well educated Gnostic in any type of debate.
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Dustin, It’s funny how you accuse Ed of a “needlessly provocative tirade” – – what do you call P&P going after Caner? Or how about it when Hall would call Pulpiteers round up and go after someone, call or e-mail someone and he’d post the e-mail/phone number publicly? What Ed has done in his dialogue with you, trying to gain understanding, pales in comparison to the behavior I’ve seen from P&P.
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Julie Anne,
I call it “Pot/Kettle”.
Now he feels like a victim of me. And, I see that his kindness here to people, being all polite and all, to be nothing but phoney.
Ed
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Dustin,
You had said:
“Chapman, I will not be responding to you further, based on the overt hostility you are demonstrating towards me, manifested by your needlessly provocative tirade.If you wish to hear my thoughts on any further issues, I would ask that you apologize. Thanks and take care”
You want an apology from me? Not gonna happen. In addition, what you demand from Caner ain’t gonna happen either.
So back off of demanding anything that you will never get from either one of us.
Again, if Caner was a pastor of a local church not affiliated with your interest in Calvinism, Caner would be nothing more than a blip on the screen for all of you people that love nothing more than to finger point.
If the Bible quotes that I gave you are offending you, good. If those verses are hostile to you in a provocative tirade, take it up with God. He does not like what you are doing.
Ed
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Dustin,
You had said to Ed:
“Chapman, I will not be responding to you further, based on the overt hostility you are demonstrating towards me, manifested by your needlessly provocative tirade.”
Given P&P’s decades long and ongoing hounding of a man who was long ago humbled and corrected, what hypocrisy!
I name you paperthinSKIN.
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To make things clear, Ed, You are not asking anything substantive of me, You are not asking me to address specific issues, and are merely twisting everything I say, or are you are repeatedly bringing up points that I’ve already conceded. For example, you say that I am “demanding” an apology from you. No I’m not. I said if you want to engage further with me ” I would ask that you apologize”. I hope you can see that these two things are different. As far as framing my relationship to Caner as just a tattletale- that also does not stand up to scrutiny. If it did, I could say that Julie Anne posting articles about the suicide at JMacs Church [which I am reading] is just her “tattle tailing”. But i don’t believe that it is, in the same way that I don’t believe people exposing Driscoll are just “tale-bearing” and they ought to just leave him alone.
Also Ed I do not feel like a victim of you- far from it.
And Julie Anne, do you really feel that in all this back and forth, that Ed is trying to gain understanding from me, and is conversing in good faith? You know him better than I. If you do I will continue to talk to engage with him and seek to give him the understanding that he is apparently seeking, but from my perspective, stuff like this “NO ONE LIKES A SNITCH, OR A SPY, OR A TATTLE TALE, OR A TALE BEARER, AND NO ONE LIKES ANYONE WHO CAUSES STRIFE. BE A MAN AND WALK AWAY. Oh, you are not a man, huh? Just a kid still wet behind the ears, huh? Respect your elders, son! Ed ” is not said to further dialogue, but rather is said to insult and shut down conversation.
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“You had said to Ed:
“Chapman, I will not be responding to you further, based on the overt hostility you are demonstrating towards me, manifested by your needlessly provocative tirade.”
Given P&P’s decades long and ongoing hounding of a man who was long ago humbled and corrected, what hypocrisy!
I name you paperthinSKIN.”
This is interesting. First of all, most of us have been involved with Caner a little over a year, with the longest being Gene at 4 years. Second of all, how was he humbled and corrected? Ergun keeps on repeating that he has nothing to apologize or repent of, and in fact he did nothing wrong. Plus just in the last year he launched lawsuits against fellow Christians who had posted a video of him publicly lying to some marines. The judged dismissed them as “frivolous” and ordered Caner to pay 35,000$ in legal costs. So I would be curious that given that, how do you know he has been humbled and been corrected?
Also, based on what you have said, why could we not just say that MD was long ago humbled and corrected, and people should just leave him alone?
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Ah, I see paperthinSKIN purposes to take Mark aside for a private discussion. Isolate him from his friends here. Maybe get his P&P friends to join in ganging up on him? Typical predator tactics. Like cyotes taking turns chasing a lone rabbit to the point of exhaustion. Like the P&P crowd hounding the Caners.
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And I’m sorry Ed that you view my kindness as phony. I promise you that I am sincere and this is how I try to act and talk and treat people on a day to day basis, with a few sinful blips here and there.
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“Ah, I see paperthinSKIN purposes to take Mark aside for a private discussion. Isolate him from his friends here. Maybe get his P&P friends to join in ganging up on him? Typical predator tactics. Like cyotes taking turns chasing a lone rabbit to the point of exhaustion. Like the P&P crowd hounding the Caners.”
Not at all. I was concerned about hijacking this thread and wrote that before I saw Julie Anne’s post giving me permission to do so. This is why I said this ” If not I don’t mind discussing this here, but I’d personally prefer to hash it out elsewhere because I really want to get back to the whole christian psychologist thing.” I specifically said I don’t mind continuing it publicly in this thread, and if people want to keep on discussing it I’m all up for it,”
Though Gary, i was hoping you could respond to those questions in my previous post. Thanks 🙂
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Ed,
Congratulations for having driven paperthinskin into retreat. He comes here projecting sweetness and light, in the manner of Saruman in his tower, but can’t take your heat.
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Gary, Not true at all. I’m still here. What made you think I’m retreating/
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Yes Gary, just another example of of a Calvinist showing the fruit of a false doctrine. Notice how this man goes about his life demanding apologies and repentance from others just like John MacArthur before either of them would condescend to share a meal with another human being, whether this be spiritual food or the word of God, all while consistently contradicting themselves. Thie foolish thinking this man has left behind in this thread has only become more evidence….
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“JM could not stand three minutes with a well educated Gnostic in any type of debate”.
I agree with you 100%!
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“Gary, Not true at all. I’m still here. What made you think I’m retreating”.
The enemy never sleeps, “your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
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Pondering,
So true, the enemy never sleeps. But he will flee those who resist. Kind of like Saruman who, with the representatives of the free peoples of the West before the gates of Orthanc, retreated from verbal engagement with Gandalf and turned his attention to the the King of Rohan, who he hoped would be easier to deceive. Kind of like paperthinskin retreating from Ed in hopes that others of us might prove to be easier prey.
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“……hopes that others of us might prove to be easier prey”.
That’s it……which is why it is so important for each man to know and understand the word of God and not the traditions of men. Did not the enemy come disguised as an angel of light?
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Pondering,
You reference the fruits of a certain doctrine. Julie Anne prefers that we not dwell on that doctrine, but I will risk a few observations. First, I recently watched (and even participated a bit) as one Reformed pastor took another Reformed “pastor” to task over the question of the purportedly subjugated status of wives in relation to their husbands. I would suggest that, when it comes to questions of spiritual abuse, it is useful and appropriate to distinguish between those Calvinists who have embraced a set of doctrines as a means of organizing their understanding of the Faith and those who have recently rallied around their doctrine as a sort of pretextual Casus belli. The latter category are not so much advocating a set of doctrines as they are seeking a pretext for aggression. Sometimes the aggression takes the form of family abuse under the banner of patriarchy and/or complementarianism. Sometimes it takes the form of spiritual abuse within a congregation under the rubric of authority, spiritual covering and so on. Sometimes it takes the form of efforts to destroy a brother on the pretext that he has stumbled.
I propose that we should distinguish between those traditional Calvinists (who truly do walk in the Love that proceeds from our Lord) and the relatively new breed of what I would call Kalvinists, or KKKalvinists, as in the Kurrent Krop of predatory Kalvinists. Where this limited subset of Calvinists/Kalvinists is concerned, the similarities with that other KKK are striking.
I should add this disclaimer: Not all spiritual predators subscribe to the doctrines that came out of Geneva.
Julie Anne, I will certainly understand if you deem it advisable to delete this comment.
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Dustin, I’m not asking anything of you. I am telling you to back off. Plain and simple.
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Pondering, Gary,
I agree with both of you. I think that the modern term now is “Kill ’em with kindness”.
Ed
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I too want to return to the issue of Christians and counseling but first I will share thoughts on Caner.
When I first read about his lies about his background and experiences, I was appalled and felt that he should indeed be called out. Any Christian organization considering employing him should know that he wasn’t being truthful and the government should stop wasting taxpayer money in hiring him to share expertise on terrorism that he does not have.
This has taken place. It is now widely known and he has lost a job and consulting work. He has lost a lawsuit. What more needs to be done? If organizations want to hire him knowing about his lies, well that is their business.
It would be nice if he came clean and repented. No one can make him do it, however. Dustin, you are claiming that this ongoing campaign is done out of love so that he will do so. It’s not working, is it? Is it really wise or mentally healthy to obsess over this one man and repeat behavior that is only resulting in someone becoming more resistant to correction?
Has this tactic ever worked? Have any of us ever repeatedly harangued a friend or family member or anyone else over bad behavior and gotten good results? I haven’t. You can express your concern and set boundaries and perhaps see results in time but harassing someone is not effective.
These techniques can also backfire and cause people who don’t know and don’t want to know the particulars of the issue, to dismiss everyone involved as quarrelsome, unpleasant people to avoid.
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Gary,
Your comment was helpful. It does not good to paint all Calvinists with a broad brush. Not all Calvinists behave like KKKalvinists.
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The last thing that I will say before returning to regularly scheduled programming in regards to seeking counseling/therapy/etc., is something that I mentioned above.
They are applauding that JD Hall repented. However, what is missed in that applause is that the applause is an admitting that JD Hall actually sinned.
That is key. JD Hall actually sinned. However, no one prior to JD Hall’s “repenting” ever admit that JD Hall sinned. As a matter of fact, JD Hall himself kept asking people such questions to people as “Show me in the Bible that it is wrong”, etc.
Now, if Dustin actually thought that JD Hall was “in sin” before JD Hall’s supposed “repentance”, maybe Dustin can show me where he posted such.
Who, of P&P believed, or believe, that JD Hall was sinning?
And if anyone did, let’s play the game of “Name That Sin”.
Ed
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So, Ed, if I am following you, you are saying it also seems that since P&P/Pulpiteers behaved in similar behavior and since they are applauding Hall’s confession/repentance, why are they not also apologizing for their part in this? Why are they not confessing their bad behavior?
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“Why are they not confessing their bad behavior?”
Because they haven’t been caught in a public relations trap. Because there is nothing driving them to what bears a very close resemblance to a John Ehrlichman style modified limited hangout, like what Richard Nixon so cynically attempted. Regarding which see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout
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Julie Anne,
You had asked:
“why are they not also apologizing for their part in this? Why are they not confessing their bad behavior? ”
My response:
That is exactly my point, JA. I believe that they, too, must “repent” since they are indeed applauding that JD Hall “repented”. But they, too, do not feel that they did anything wrong. But they were cheerleaders, which makes them just as guilty.
Ed
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Dustin,
Why is Jordan, as you call him, back behind his mic again, so soon after his supposed written “apology”, and “repentance”? I thought he had a local church to attend to.
This shows me that his so-called repentance was not as sincere as you lay out. Pretty soon he will be right back into the narcissist star seeking public speaker position that he always has desired.
This is why I do not give JD the benefit of the doubt. Feigned repentance is what I see. Public outrage is what drove him to repent.
It’s like a polititian stating, “IF (IF) I offended anyone, I apologize”. But to those who were not offended, he does not apologize. He stands by what he did, or said.
Ed
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Dear Dustin,
Thank you for taking so much time to comment here, and to respond to so many people at once. I realize that you’re taking a lot of heat, and I don’t mean to add to it. But while there might not be much that I can add to this thread, there is some advice I want to offer.
I’d like to add my voice to those requesting that you and your fellows at Pulpit and Pen back away from your criticism of Ergun Caner, at least for a good long time. Not because he hasn’t deserved it, not because he’s just gotten shellacked in court, and not simply because he and his family are in mourning now. In the future, if Caner starts up his bad behaviour again — especially if he files more idiotic, frivolous lawsuits — someone needs to hold him accountable.
But I don’t think it should be the Pulpiteers.
Further upthread, you mentioned how much you respect JD Hall for his apology and his public act of penance. I’ve read it, and I hope very much that it is sincere, and that he’ll be a better Christian and a better man for it. Just above, however, Julie Anne posed the question: Have the Pulpiteers done the same? Have they acknowledged their own wrongdoing towards Braxton Caner, before and after his death? (I’m thinking of Rhoblogy in particular. His comments were beyond the pale.)
If they haven’t apologized, publicly or privately to the Caners, and they haven’t seen the need to dial down their rhetoric, then I don’t see that they have any business calling out Ergun. Not until they demonstrate that they’re willing to behave more civilly in the future. As you know, there are many blogs that bring attention to abuse and nonsense from Christian leaders. If Caner steps out of line, I’m sure someone else will point it out. It doesn’t have to be Pulpit and Pen, and for the time being at least, I don’t think it should be. Like JD Hall, the Pulpiteers should probably save their breath to cool their own bowl of soup.
Getting back to the original topic, I’m glad to hear that you support Christians seeking help from professional counsellors and psychologists. It pains me to think that there are brothers and sisters who are being denied that kind of care when they need it. However, I don’t agree with you that Christians must or should insist upon getting counselled by someone with spiritual training (whatever that’s supposed to be). This is particularly relevant to me, living in Japan. What are the odds that I’ll find a professional therapist who’s also a Christian, should I ever need one? If it ever comes to that, I may have to be content with someone who respects my beliefs, even if he or she doesn’t fully understand them.
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ED – Hmmm?
I wonder if Dustin is as concerned about his friends at P&P…
The pastor/elder/overseers, so-called “christian leaders,” at P&P…
Who do NOT qualify to be pastor/elder/overseers…
And – Are Living a LIE…
Will Dustin call them to REPENT???
Seems simple to me – If JD Hall, really believes he did do wrong…
And, his buddies at P&P, really believe JD Hall did do wrong…
Then JD Hall should remove himself from being a pastor/elder/overseer…
Because he (NEVER) is NOT qualified acorrding to 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1…
And neither are the other pastor/elder/overseers writing at P&P.
1 – Must Be **Blameless** — unrebukeable, without fault.
….Well, JD Hall, did admit he is NOT without fault. Oppps, Does NOT qualify. 😉
….And the other pastor/elder/overseers did NOT stop him. They have fault.
2 – husband of one wife — married, male.
3 – rules well his own house — have a family, children.
4 – not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
5 – vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
…. Hmmm? Calm in spirit? I’ve been on P&P, JD, P&P, NOT calm in spirit.
6 – sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
…. JD Hall? Elders at P&P? Sound Mind? Definitly NOT self controlled… 😉
7 – of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
…. JD Hall??? Elders at P&P??? Modest??? Reserved??? Nope… 😉
8 – no striker — not quarrelsome, contentious.
…. JD Hall? ALL elders at P&P? Contentius??? YUP….
9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
….. JD Hall??? ALL elders at P&P??? Fighting??? – Yup…
10 – not self willed — not self pleasing, not arrogant.
…. NOT looking to good for P&P’s, self proclaimed “pastor/elder/overseers.”
11 – not soon angry — not prone to anger.
…. Hmmm? NOT looking to good for P&P’s, so-called “christian leaders.”
12 – temperate — having power over, restraining. – Yeah, that’s P&P… 😉
13 – **holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
… JD Hall? ALL elders at P&P? Free from wickedness? NOPE…
14 – **just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.
… JD Hall? ALL elders at P&P? Innocent? NOPE…
I wonder if Dustin is as concerned about his friends at P&P…
The pastor/elder/overseers, so-called “christian leaders,” at P&P…
Who do NOT qualify – And – Are Living a LIE…
Will Dustin call them to REPENT???
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A. Amos Love,
I agree that JD Hall should step down, and I do not believe at all in church discipline, as you may well know.
I believe that he should be fired due to not being qualified, or, not having what it takes. And you used scripture to show that. And that is what I am all about, too. Showing scripture to prove that Dustin’s crowd needs to stop the harassing. But, they won’t listen to the Word of God. They have an agenda. And their agenda trumps God.
Discipleship vs. Discipline. Who watches over JD’s soul?
________________________________
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Quoting someone above,
I had clinical depression for many years, and anxiety – was diagnosed by psychiatrists. At least one shrink I saw was a self professing Christian, not sure about the religious views of the others.
While seeing these shrinks over the years (and the occasional psychologist), I also read books by Christian doctors about depression and anxiety, seeing if there was some advice they could give that would free me.
(Reading the Bible, attending church, having faith in God for a healing, and prayer – the usual stuff Christians tell you to do – did not alleviate the depression and anxiety.)
I found the books on these issues by Non Christian doctors much better, more practical, and easier to understand.
There were a very small number of books by Christian doctors that were okay, but the vast majority of books, sermons, or magazine articles on depression and anxiety by Christians were worthless. Totally worthless.
Even most Christian psychologists / psychiatrists inject a lot of simplistic advice or platitudes into their books and blogs on these subjects.
Some of the Christian authors feel the need to inject Bible verses to prove their assertions every other sentence. I grew really tired of that, found the frequent Bible verse dropping distracting, not helpful.
Some of the books by Christians were very victim-blaming, which made me angry and was another big turn-off.
Instead of just telling me how to get out of the depression and anxiety, which is what I was looking for (a solution that would work), these Christian authors would get into these long, rambling, shame-filled fests about my supposed sin.
These authors were arguing my personal sin or lack of faith was behind my depression and anxiety (I disagree). Those books only made me feel worse and did not offer any steps out of the anxiety and depression…
For that, for material that actually helped me, I had to read book by Non Christians!
I only saw a very small number of Christian mental health professionals that “got it.” Most Christians, both laypersons and Christian mental health professionals and “counselors,” however, are into casting stones at the hurting and assigning them blame, rather than actually helping them get out of the pain.
I also find the theological assumptions puzzling. I accepted Jesus Christ as savior before I reached the age of ten. Here I was at ages 20, 25, 30, 35, reading books by Christians who kept hitting me over the head with a “sin” messages – as in, my personal sin (supposedly) was what was behind my depression.
I’m like, these authors are talking to me as though I am a Non Christian, but I’m not.
I accepted Christ as Savior before I was ten years old. Jesus dealt with my sin already, he let my sin go, why can’t these book authors who are lecturing me? Why do the Christian counselors and Christian authors want to dwell on my supposed sin, when God says he remembers my sin no more (Hebrews 8:12)?
It’s puzzling to me why and how some Christians keep treating a forgiven sinner as though they are still an unforgiven Non-Christian.
(Which is not to say that Christians cannot and do not keep sinning after they accept Christ, but I find it weird that someone like me who had accepted Christ as a child and was sincerely trying to follow Jesus was none the less being treated like a militant, God-hating atheist by some of these Christian authors/counselors.
Some of these Christian authors made it sound like if I only got right with God or kept admitting I’m a sinner, or if I only kept focusing on my sin, that the depression and anxiety would go away on its own, somehow.
Very weird logic in some of these books and blogs, don’t see how dwelling on any supposed sin is supposed to help depression and anxiety.)
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My post above got me to thinking about a church site that said their church was going to start offering biblical counseling to people undergoing depression or other problems.
This church’s site said they were affiliating with some Christian counseling group or something or other. They provided sample material on their site from the Christian counseling group, including one huge page of their goals and beliefs and stuff.
(I believe I provided a link to that church’s offer to counsel people at TWW many months ago. Oddly, nobody there commented on that link, or not much.)
I skimmed down that church’s big long page of what their counseling would be like, and it was terrible.
I don’t remember everything in it, but what did stand out in my mind is at one point on the list, they come right out and admit that they are not interested in healing you and helping you get over whatever problem you have (such as depression or whatever it may be) – they want to you deal with your personal sin, they said.
The whole tone of their list was very unloving. They obviously do not have a clue what it’s like to have depression.
I also have to say if the goal of your counseling is to make someone think about sin all day long, rather than heal them of depression, you’re not doing counseling. You’re doing church.
Theology, preaching, and playing church vs. counseling people are all very different things.
It’s like if a church said they are putting on an auto repair workshop where they will have church elders there who will call themselves “mechanics,” but they say when you bring your car in to get the flat tire or oil changed, they will not change the tire or oil, but will instead lecture you on how awful your personal sin is, and how your sin led your car to have a flat tire.
Okay, that is not being a mechanic. That is not auto repair. That will do nothing to get the person’s flat tire fixed. That is churchy stuff under another title.
If I bring my beat up, old car to your “auto repair week” ministry to get it fixed, and you don’t actually put a new tire on my car, but you lecture me the whole time I’m at the auto class that I am a terrible sinner and you keep pointing to my flat tire and saying, “see, you have a flat tire” – you’re not doing auto repair, you are still doing church, you are victim blaming, you’re not doing anything to actually rectify my situation (ie, fix the tire), and that leaves me at square one: a car with a flat tire.
I do not know why these proponents of this stuff do not comprehend this and how utterly useless it is.
They think pointing to the Gospel solves everything, or telling me what a sinner I am changes things… it doesn’t.
If I burn my toast, you pointing at it and telling me, “Your toast is burnt” and that I need the Gospel, that Jesus came to rescue sinners, or that I’m a horrible sinner, does not un-burn my toast. I’m still left with burnt toast.
(Also, I already accepted Christ in childhood, I don’t need to hear from the umpteenth time in my life the Gospel message or that Jesus died for my sins.)
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One of the best therapists I know is Buddhist.
Good therapists will respect your beliefs. It is not their job to question your values and beliefs unless those values and beliefs are harmful to self and/or others.
A good therapist will help you gain insight into what is making you unhappy, help you change what you want to change, and help you cope with what cannot be changed such as past trauma or an incurable illness.
I do not recommend that Christians seek out a Christian therapist simply because there is so much potential for harm depending upon what that Christian therapist believes.
It is dangerous to the mental health of a parient for a therapist to tell a victim of sexual abuse that they too are a totally depraved sinner, no better than their abuser, that they must forgive the abuser, that they must examine how their own sins contributed to the ‘situation’, and that their continuing to dwell on their trauma is evidence of sinful bitterness.
It is dangerous to the physical health and very lives of the spouse and children of an abuser to be told that abuse is not grounds for divorce.
It is dangerous to children when Christian counselors believe that pedophiles can repent and be healed and then their sexual attraction to children will go away. It won’t. Some people can choose not to act on these feelings but they must remove themselves from situations where they have access to children. They must see their therapist. They may need medication. They shouldn’t hang around playgrounds, teach, operate a day care in their home, babysit, or become involved in children’s church, etc. And it is a really bad idea to suggest they marry a single mom with children in their church.
There is the issue of training. A good therapist should have good academic training in clinical psychology and that does not come from seminaries which denounce the discipline of psychology.
A good therapist does not dismiss the physical causes of mental illness. The evidence is overwhelming that bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are brain disorders. Other diseases can have psychiatric components. It would be disastrous to treat out of control diabetes, hormonal imbalances, thyroid problems, anemia etc with either psychogical or spiritual counseling and miss the underlying illness that needs to be treated by a medical doctor.
I have personal experience with the cognitive and psychiatric problems caused by a neurodegenerative disease. Just imagine how tragic it is to watch a devout Christian and former Sunday School superintendent throw a temper tantrum at age 50 over not getting a large enough scoop of ice cream or abusing his wife over not finishing a household chore (because she is doing a different one that he demanded she stop and do instead not ten minutes before). Medication and adaptation of the sick person’s environment is necessary. It may also be necessary for the caregiver spouse to seek out medication, therapy, and even divorce when he or she cannot remain in the marriage and be safe.
As for depression, it can have both situational and physical causes. Even situational depression can require meds. First, people can be too depressed to work with their therapist and need medication for a limited period of time. Second, when depression goes on too long, it actually changes the brain, necessitating medication.
There are excellent Christian psychologists, psychiatrists and clinical social workers out there who can help, but given some very odd and harmful attitudes and beliefs among Christian counselors these days, I don’t recommend going to a Christian counselor unless I know for sure that the specific person in question is trained and experienced and does not hold dangerous beliefs.
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I wish people would stop saying that JD Hall has repented. He HAS apologized publicly. That is the beginning of repentance. True repentance will be obvious, or not, over time with a change of direction and actions being seen.
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Dustin –
I do believe you should back off “calling out” Caner for a good long time. He has lost a child. To continue your pursuit with him at this time seems heartless. Are you loving him the way you would want someone to love/treat you and your family if you were in the same circumstances?
Comparing what you want to do in continuing to call out Caner with those calling out Driscoll and Mahaney is comparing apples and oranges. Driscoll and Mahaney have not lost children to suicide.
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Marsha, I agree with your whole post. Very well stated.
Yes, I’ve read and learned before that a competent mental health professional will respect your spiritual/ religious beliefs. Their goal is not to change your views on God or religion. (There might be a few hacks or incompetent ones who might try, -who knows- but they’re trained not to do that.)
It’s very important for people to shop around for a mental health professional, even if you decide to use a Non-Christian one.
One reason you need to shop around is it is a matter of fit. Maybe you don’t like the personality of the first mental health professional you see.
I saw a Non-Christian mental health professional or two (at least I assume they were NCs) who seemed to be “phoning it in.” They were coasting. They didn’t really take an interest in me.
I sometimes wondered if the scribbling they were making on their note pad as I talked was them taking notes on my comments – or if they were secretly making cartoon doodles because they were bored by what I was saying. I dropped those guys and tried other psychologists.
There can also be abusive or dangerous Non Christian mental health professionals, such as men who sexually prey on vulnerable women patients, for instance.
So even if you are hurting from depression or whatever you’re going through do not let your guard down, not even around a Non-Christian mental health professional.
Do not automatically trust every counselor or psychologist you see. You have to be discerning.
There are different types of psychology paradigms and approaches, too…. you might want to find out which type your mental health professional that you are considering visiting subscribes to, and understand which type would benefit you the most.
If your mental health professional is into the Freudian approach (Psychoanalysis), for example, you may spend almost every single session discussing your childhood with your doctor, or how your mother treated you as you were growing up, or how you felt about your father.
If you don’t think dwelling on your childhood or parents would be helpful to you currently, or whatever crisis you are in, you need to find a therapist who is into something else, such as cognitive behavioral therapy.
There are many web pages that explain all this, here is just one:
Different approaches to psychotherapy
(from the American Psychological Association site)
Anyway. I usually found Non-Christian content on depression and anxiety much more practical, less judgmental, and more helpful, than the majority of Christian things I heard or read on the topic.
Christians have a tendency to beat around the bush about things or make everything into a drawn on Sunday School lesson, but Non Christians typically get straight to the point.
Christians who scream at, guilt trip, or who scold hurting Christians away from using Non-Christian anything -(whether mental health professionals or whatever)- are exacerbating the problem, hurting people further, and keeping people trapped in a problem, when they should be freeing them.
At my age, I’m more interested in solutions that work, rather than in being 100% doctrinally pure and correct on every facet of life.
Also, the older I get, the Christians who insist on being doctrinally correct at every point in life on everything all the time -depending on the particular person it’s coming from- they either strike me as being terribly naive, impractical, or spiritually prideful, spiritually stubborn….
Or, they remind me of legalistic, nit-picky Pharisees (like the ones who got ticked off that Jesus healed a woman on the Sabbath. Don’t you know Jesus was supposed to let that woman suffer one more day, to uphold the Sabbath? It was more important and godly to honor the Sabbath than to help a human being).
Oh my gosh, you could probably be healed of depression if you took medications and went to a Non-Christian psychologist or read books by Non-Christian therapists, BUT, that isn’t biblically or gospelley enough, you’re not sticking it out just relying on prayer alone, so you should forgo a healing via a doctor and just suffer, but look at how spiritual you are. – *barf*
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BREAKING NEWS: “In a pre-recorded video announcement, Mark Driscoll told his congregation this morning that he will take at least six weeks off as lead pastor of Mars Hill Church while charges against him are investigated. The message was played at each campus this morning. Executive elder Dave Bruskas will preach the remainder of the I John series.”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/08/24/announcement-mark-driscoll-will-take-time-off-while-charges-against-him-are-investigated/
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Julie Anne,
Specifically what charges are being investigated?
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Mark
Go here
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/08/24/announcement-mark-driscoll-will-take-time-off-while-charges-against-him-are-investigated/
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Oh wonderful. First thing I’d like to know is who is investigating Driscoll? His own bought and paid for “elders?” Or the police? The fact that he has plans for a comeback tells me this is just a PR ploy. Otherwise, why not just tough it out (if you’re convinced of your own innocence), or else confess and leave of you know you’re guilty? In big religion, as in all politics, investigations tend to be no more than tools to distract and delay–and ultimately exonerate.
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I don’t think it specifically said, Mark. Or whose charges they are listening to – former or current elders? The whole thing is so messed up.
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@ Gary W,
“Driscoll preached at Bellevue at 8:30 am to a packed house. According to sources in church this morning, Driscoll said he is meeting with mature Christian men unrelated to the church. The message is being played at other locations this morning.”
Source:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/08/24/announcement-mark-driscoll-will-take-time-off-while-charges-against-him-are-investigated/
Throckmorton said he’ll have updates about this story on his blog on Patheos through out the day today.
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Before anyone comments that this is a move in the right direction, stop being so gullible. Driscoll should have resigned, and the fact that he will step away from his pulpit for six weeks makes this a mockery of the ministry.
J. D. Hall : a mockery of the ministry
C.J. Mahaney: a mockery of the ministry
Walk away from these churches. Stop giving them money. You are not a bunch of stupid sheep who are incapable of thinking for yourself. You don’t need these men to tell you what to do. Walk away!
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Give me 10 minutes and I’m putting up a new article about Driscoll. Normally I don’t care about mixing up subjects, but the counseling one is so important to me and I know people have a lot to say about Driscoll.
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Gary,
_______has been mentioned throughout this thread….should you bring to everyones attention as others mentioned also, no? Dwell? Making a statement is not dwelling.
And, you are free to divide ______ into however many groups you wish; you will not be the first and you can add your own ‘label’ (or even start your own “ism”) KKK, but it will not change the evil doctrine no matter how many petals one believes in- for each petal of that flower is filled with poison. Jesus Christ does not put people into collective groups, and neither should we. We are called to love all people, not just those within whatever group with whom we may agree. Let’s all understand it is man that puts himself into groups and it is man who labels and it is individuals who boast I’m a _______. I personally detest this practice; this is why we have countless religions today which only causes division among people. It is therefore necessary to understand that what the mind has been taught (system of beliefs) is imperative in understanding the root of any problem, and that those beliefs manifest themselves in behaviors of those who ascribe to certain teachings.
“Not all spiritual predators subscribe to the doctrines that came out of Geneva”.
Nor do I believe this; I said this man is yet another example of one who does follow the teachings of ______and the fruits are evident of this doctrine as we are seeing all too often. Predators often use the guise of religion, they love ‘church’. It isn’t enough to call someone a ‘predator’ we need to understand who the predator ‘enemy’ is in order that we may not send victims back for more deceit or possible abuse and in some cases death. I hope more will speak up about this. Do I dare mention yet another pastor who is a _______preacher, Mark Driscoll, who has stepped down for 6 whole weeks while being investigated (this part is funny) for abuse of power, lying,, bullying……………….4 men in one article common belief ________.
We are warned over and over again be not deceived and do not exchange the TRUTH for lies.
Also. while I absolutely LOVE Lord of the Rings the author’s theology comes through in the writings and makes for great discussion!
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Ed,
You are so right about that comment, but we will LOVE them by speaking the TRUTH!
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There was an article in the Huffington Post yesterday discussing that former pastors brought the charges, and it is only going to the church elders. This is not a police thing.
But this is news today that he is temporarily stepping down.
________________________________
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Pondering,
You had said:
“we will LOVE them by speaking the TRUTH!”
My response:
Well, as much as I agree with that statement, we also need to realize that there is a time to not speak at all, which is my point with Dustin.
Proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
1 Thessalonians 4:11
And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
Ecclesiastes 3:1
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecclesiastes 3:7
…a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
If Caner has spiritually abused anyone, let him or her speak. To my knowledge, everyone has lied. Is Caner the only one? Isn’t Satan known as the accuser? When Satan accuses, is he wrong about the accusation?
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Proverbs 30:10
Accuse not a servant unto his master, lest he curse thee, and thou be found guilty.
And let’s not forget about this one:
John 8:10-11
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Well, I see stone throwing going on.
Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
2 Peter 2:11
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
You see, all of these Bible verses that I bring to the attention of Dustin means nothing to Dustin, nor do they mean anything to P&P. They think that they are loving Ergun Caner by their constant accusations? I think not. Satan does not love and he constantly accuses, day and night. Their definition of love is twisted.
However, having said all of that, they will do as Satan does, and not as Jesus does.
Jesus does not condemn, Satan does.
Ed
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Ed,
“….we also need to realize there is a time to not speak at all, which is my point with Dustin”
“all of these Bible verses that I bring to the attention of Dustin means nothing to Dustin, not do they mean anything to P&P”
“they think they are loving Caner”
I agree and I will say again these men have proven to be dangerous and they think this a game that is to be played out in public. Dustin even boasts of playing nice with “those who don’t share his theological convictions” while making a human being, Mr. Caner, who is still grieving his dead son, his “project”. You see a narcissist has to convince you to believe what they want you to believe because you see Ed, you and others, “you both misunderstand him”. But remember his words, “I have no intention to stop loving him (Caner) by calling him to repentance so that his soul may be unburdened and his mind set free”. These men do believe it is they who are to relieve man of his sin not God and they have proven and said again they will use “whatever form that takes”, and I shutter thinking of these evil vile words. They believe in a god of force created by another man and these men live out what they believe and they call it love, grace and kindness. Yes, they do desire to set minds free, Screwtape?
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Pondering, I get very confused by this behavior. Because if they truly held to their doctrinal convictions (that God is sovereign), wouldn’t they’d count themselves as lowly worms unable to control anything?? and that God controls every molecule???
If they hold to those doctrinal beliefs, you’d think someone would call them out for idolatry-for believing they could have influence to control anything and trying to usurp God’s authority while going after Caner endlessly. So in other words, by trying to control people, aren’t they in fact saying they are like God and/or can do better than him? That seems pretty arrogant to me.
Note: please note that I am bringing up a specific aspect of a doctrinal belief within the system of Calvinism. I’m ok discussing it like this. I will soon try to do a post explaining what I have a problem with when labeling Calvinism in general and why I request that we not throw out generalities. Hang on with me. I’m sure this is confusing to some.
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JA,
Bingo! God placed these men behind the pulpits, for they are men called by God, and God is sovereign therefore all that happens is God’s will, even abuse. Don’t try to solve a problem, it is all God’s will. Manipulation. They do think they are like God, some even believe they are, they demand submission and will use force, read the numerous stories of the spiritual tyranny and start believing people who have become prey to this wickedness.They believe that the keys to the kingdom have been given to them. Some, such as CJ Mahaney even believe they will stand in your stead. It is the leaders, pastors and elders, who have been given the ability to interpret for the masses, we are too stupid, totally depraved, worms that crawl on their bellies, nothing but filthy rags. It is they who have all authority to forgive and seek forgiveness from others. This is why evil men such as CJ Mahaney’s SGM forced victims no matter how old to forgive their abusers, now we see JD Hall and Dustin Germain trying to force repentance form Caner? Why do they care so much. Caner is a threat to their empire. So why are the members shocked when their pastor behaves in such a way as CJ Mahaney or Mark Driscoll? Why don’t they step down? They have already depraved the mind of all the members of their cults. These men have NO desire to relinquish their power or their empire.
Our hearts and our minds have been created by God almighty and no matter what lies we have been taught, our conscious will always bear witness to the TRUTH! Remember who asked these words? Pontius Pilate, he asked our Lord, ‘What is Truth?’. This was the exact same teaching going on when our Lord was alive. I believe with all my heart that this is why there is so much mental illness. I do lay this at the feet of the institution. We are being taught a doctrine that contradicts the very word of God. People are losing everything from their minds, children, husbands, wives, homes, friends……due to the lies being brainwashed. We need to question and allow them and discuss, get understanding, encourage and equip one another to understand what is going on in the institutions in America; it is not just the mega churches, they are just the big dogs in the game. I hope no one ever puts money in their pockets again, oh the church calls this tithing.
Calvinism/New Calvinism’s plan is to take over every single church. i would encourage those reading this thread to begin looking up and reading about this as much as possible. Wasn’t it 2009 that Time Magazine included this movement in an article about 10 things most changing the world……this has been in the works for years. Praise God many people are beginning to see, thanks to people like JA who have had the courage to stand up to abuse in the church and begin a blog. Do not wait to be a victim of this vile, evil hate-filled doctrine, I hope you took good notes as I did on Dustin’s comments. He has left behind much to dissect and learn from. I have said before that I have begun to call these pastors who teach this doctrine “fallen pastors” because they remind me of Satan who come disguised as light. God has given us warning after warning and countless examples to learn from. The God they have created is a tyrant. Period.
“Every single person who believes in Jesus Christ has been given a helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you”. Praise God! We are not alone, although many may feel alone and cold and wounded. May we all find strength in the promises of the word of God as we continue to seek understanding, knowledge and wisdom. We are not ordinary men and women we are a holy people.
I have studied this for years and years after I was told that I might not be elected (this was just after being diagnosed with an illness). Darkness came over me and created a life of fear and anxiety. Friends, we can know TRUTH. God is GOOD and He created man in HIS image and we too are GOOD, NOT evil. We need to begin to love ourselves as GOD love us and know God and love Him- then we will love our neighbors as we love ourselves; and if we do not have love for self, how can we love our neighbors? If you hate yourself because you have been taught you are wicked then you will hate your brother and man will stop at nothing to achieve his ends.
sorry so long, there is much to discuss.
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paperthinhymn,
You said: Sorry, could have used better choice of words- the phrase “acting out” is a local colloquialism used up here in my town in Canada.
Could you explain what this colloquialism means to you in Canada, so that I will better understand your response?
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Pondering,
You had said:
“I hope you took good notes as I did on Dustin’s comments. He has left behind much to dissect and learn from.”
Your rant was spot on! I’m glad that you have been unleashed to use the C word!!
For me, Dustin’s comments are not new. It’s old rehash from others that spew the same thing. It’s almost like a cut and paste. There is nothing original from the heart. That is why I do not, nor will not give Dustin the benefit of the doubt when he is being nice and polite. I already know that it is a tactic that they use to manipulate. I can see right thru them. So, I do not give Dustin any credence in anything that he states, not even when he is trying to say that he is nice to those who do not agree with him theologically, because his ultimate goal is to get them to agree with him theologically, unwittingly. They are good manipulators and control freaks. You are right to have others dissect his words.
Ed
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Brenda,
You had said:
“Could you explain what this colloquialism means to you in Canada, so that I will better understand your response?”
Do you remember Bob and Doug McKenzie?
Good Day ay
Ed
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Do you remember Bob and Doug McKenzie?
No, Ed. I had never seen these guys before.
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I can’t imagine, “acting out” meaning anything different, but I’m not from Canada. I guess they can make it into anything they want, but it was not explained or my question answered.
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Brenda,
Bob and Doug, played by Rick Moranis and Dave Thomas are ficticious comic characters playing the Canadian stereotype of being Canadian dimwits. They were a popular segment on SCTV and CBS late at night in the early 80’s.
Two of their famous songs were
1. Take Off (To the Great White North) and
2. Twelve Days of Christmas
In the 12 Days of Christmas:
On the first day of Christmas my true love gave to me…a beer.
Then there was 7 pounds of back bacon, 6 French Toast…etc.
OK, so it was funny in the 80’s!!
Ed
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Ed, Was all of this brought up because Dustin is Canadian? If so, that’s not real cool. Let’s try to have respectful dialogue, please 🙂
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Julie Anne,
We have a mutual Canadian friend. I’m being funny, not derogatory. Canadians do have a different way of speaking English, even in spelling sometimes. My own mother is French Canadian.
Comedy was funny in the 80’s. What happened since then?
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If you didn’t have a heated article with Dustin, it would be a different story. I saw one comment in particular yesterday that seemed personal rather than debating the topic. Just try to stick to the topic and not make it personal. I know this stuff frustrates you. You and I are on the same page there. I, too, want to figure out what’s going on with P&P and if they feel a responsibility to make things right, especially as you pointed out that they thought Hall should have apologized. I want to know what their plans are for the future.
Ok, carry on.
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SCTV and CBS late at night in the early 80’s.
That’s the problem Ed. Late night and me generally were never a mix. 9:00 PM was about as late night as I got and up at 4 am. Now I’ve gotten older and have health issues that sometimes keep me awake when I don’t really want to be. I do remember the 12 days of Christmas song though. That must have gotten played on the radio.
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Dustin,
I attempted to comment on P & P’s recent Repentant thread. I won’t have a twitter account nor would I want my comments on twitter anyway. I don’t want my comments on Facebook. I don’t have a WordPress account.
P & P has a different format in how they receive comments.
I will add that one can call out someone to repent if they think it warrants it..
P & P accomplished that objective along time ago with Dr. Caner. This crusade has turned into a sinful obsession. You made your views clear to your audience and to Dr. Caner.
It would be reckless to rule out that this obsession hasn’t had a tragic affect on the Caner Family. (which is why I’m sure JD has partially toned down the rhetoric)
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Dustin,
Were you aware the Mark’s comments are not getting posted at P&P? If so, why aren’t his comments being approved?
Mark, please feel free to copy and paste comments that are not posted here. I’d like to see them. I just took a look at the thread and see Ed debating Rhology.
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Julie Anne,
Could you please send my most recent comment to P & P?
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Mark, I’m going to tweet him and ask him to read this thread.
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Mark, It occurred to me that there’s a possibility that your comment could have gone to their spam box. That happens here occasionally. So, let’s give the benefit of the doubt there. I sent a tweet letting them know that you have a stuck comment and asked if they could check their spam box.
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Julie Anne,
When I attempted to post the above comment to P & P, it only had 3 exclusive options wordpress, twitter and facebook. no longing having an alternating option of email, name and site.
Not sure how Ed was able to post.
If you have the ability to paste my comment on the August 23 P & P “Repent” post, I would really appreciate it.
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Let’s see if Dustin will take a look here and see if he can offer a suggestion. They might be able to change some settings for that and not be aware of that issue.
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Dustin,
If you could review my 9:28 a.m. this morning’s statement here on SSB I would appreciate it. I was unable to post it on P & P.
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“The last thing that I will say before returning to regularly scheduled programming in regards to seeking counseling/therapy/etc., is something that I mentioned above.
They are applauding that JD Hall repented. However, what is missed in that applause is that the applause is an admitting that JD Hall actually sinned.
That is key. JD Hall actually sinned. However, no one prior to JD Hall’s “repenting” ever admit that JD Hall sinned. As a matter of fact, JD Hall himself kept asking people such questions to people as “Show me in the Bible that it is wrong”, etc.
Now, if Dustin actually thought that JD Hall was “in sin” before JD Hall’s supposed “repentance”, maybe Dustin can show me where he posted such.
Who, of P&P believed, or believe, that JD Hall was sinning?
And if anyone did, let’s play the game of “Name That Sin”.”
Ed,
I hope this following sentence will serve to be more than sufficient to give you clarity on my position of whether or not I thought it was sinful. I responded previously to this, but perhaps you missed it or
JD sinned in engaging Braxton. It was unwise, unhelpful, misdirected and should not have done so. Full-stop.
Julie Anne,
Anyways, I’ve said it privately and publicly before and after he issued his apology, with differing degrees of nuance as I tried to be thoughtful in my approach of the situation. Especially initially when a lot of bad arguments were being made and I was having to think through all the different scenarios and biblical applications to these issues. For example, one woman said [in all caps] “ITS ALWAYS SINFUL TO TALK TO A MINOR ABOUT SPIRITUAL THINGS WITHOUT THEIR PARENTS CONSENT AND PERMISSION.” That thought is something that I took the time to stop and think about and poke and prod at to see if it held weight or not.
Speaking only of myself here, and not of anyone else, quite frankly I had never encountered this unique situation on social media before, and it was important to me to try to be really precise with my words without having all the facts or understanding the motivations of all parties involved. I spent a bit of time on the defensive, as I tried to dispel what I considered to be bad arguments or inconsistent and irrational logic relating to this issue. But the more that came to light, particularly as JD elaborated on his motivations, the more forceful my statements became. There is a progression of outspokenness- sure- but it came not from people demanding that I issue a statement before the dust had settled and before I considered these things, but as more information came to light.
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“Dustin,
Why is Jordan, as you call him, back behind his mic again, so soon after his supposed written “apology”, and “repentance”? I thought he had a local church to attend to.
This shows me that his so-called repentance was not as sincere as you lay out. Pretty soon he will be right back into the narcissist star seeking public speaker position that he always has desired.
This is why I do not give JD the benefit of the doubt. Feigned repentance is what I see. Public outrage is what drove him to repent.
It’s like a polititian stating, “IF (IF) I offended anyone, I apologize”. But to those who were not offended, he does not apologize. He stands by what he did, or said.
Ed”
Ed, while writing and blogging and researching can take up a lot of time- the program doesn’t. It takes about 4 hours of Jordan’s week and only requires a modest time commitment- giving him more than enough time and energy to attend to his flock.
As far as why “he’s back so soon” Well, we all have different subjective levels of how soon is too soon, and these will naturally conflict and be disagreed upon. Some people think “never” is too soon. Some people think a year is “too” soon. We all have our preferences and there’s no hard or fast rules surrounding these things.I personally don’t think it’s too soon and am glad to have it back.
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“Dustin,
Why is Jordan, as you call him, back behind his mic again, so soon after his supposed written “apology”, and “repentance”? I thought he had a local church to attend to.
This shows me that his so-called repentance was not as sincere as you lay out. Pretty soon he will be right back into the narcissist star seeking public speaker position that he always has desired.
This is why I do not give JD the benefit of the doubt. Feigned repentance is what I see. Public outrage is what drove him to repent.
It’s like a polititian stating, “IF (IF) I offended anyone, I apologize”. But to those who were not offended, he does not apologize. He stands by what he did, or said.
Ed”
You are free to not believe Jordan all you wish- and you may also theorize and assert what you think this necessarily means all you will- that is certainly your prerogative. While I can surmise that you won’t take my word for it, I would certainly attest that this hit him deeply and is not feigned at all.
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“Julie Anne,
You had asked:
“why are they not also apologizing for their part in this? Why are they not confessing their bad behavior? ”
My response:
That is exactly my point, JA. I believe that they, too, must “repent” since they are indeed applauding that JD Hall “repented”. But they, too, do not feel that they did anything wrong. But they were cheerleaders, which makes them just as guilty.
Ed”
Again, I only speak for myself, but I have checked my motivations throughout this and I don’t believe I have done anything wrong or have had bad behavior that requires confession. I understand that some people may disagree with him and I welcome any rebukes and correction directed my way, so long as they contain specific and salient considerations and points that I can tangibly think about and mull over, instead of vague generalities and accusations.
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Thanks, Dustin. What about the tweets of other Pulpiteers who were following and joining along with JD as he pursued Braxton?
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“Dear Dustin,
Thank you for taking so much time to comment here, and to respond to so many people at once. I realize that you’re taking a lot of heat, and I don’t mean to add to it. But while there might not be much that I can add to this thread, there is some advice I want to offer.”
SKIP. Thank you for this post. It is a breath of fresh air and I really appreciate the spirit in which you address me. You definitely have my attention and my ear.
“I’d like to add my voice to those requesting that you and your fellows at Pulpit and Pen back away from your criticism of Ergun Caner, at least for a good long time. Not because he hasn’t deserved it, not because he’s just gotten shellacked in court, and not simply because he and his family are in mourning now. In the future, if Caner starts up his bad behaviour again — especially if he files more idiotic, frivolous lawsuits — someone needs to hold him accountable. But I don’t think it should be the Pulpiteers.”
Its definitely something that has come up- the idea of how long should we wait. I think looking to Rick warren and the tragedy in his own family is a good model. Many hateful, spiteful, vicious critics jumped at this sad circumstance , while many of his other more thoughtful critics, like Chris Rosebrough, waited a year I believe before he made public comments addressing him directly. Speaking for myself, that would be my preference- an extended time, providing that Ergun doesn’t go on the offensive and launches more lawsuits or makes more blatantly provocative statements. But as to the questions of whether the Pulpiteers should get involved or not, or us contributors should get involved, there has certainly been much discussion. Did you see the post I wrote at our blog on the future of Pulpit and Pen? That kind of lays out our focus and mission. My only concern though is that some people [not saying you] asking that question presuppose that Jordan played a direct role in Braxton killing himself- which we just don’t know. I’m on the record stating that I think Jordan’s comments, all things considered, were generally mild and benign. His motivations were sinful, as he has admitted, but I don’t think Jordan’s tweets to the young man disqualify all other people affiliated with him from ever speaking up about this issue. Certainly if someone else steps up in the future and picks up shield and the slack, then I would consider how and if I would limit my involvement in this matter.
“Further upthread, you mentioned how much you respect JD Hall for his apology and his public act of penance. I’ve read it, and I hope very much that it is sincere, and that he’ll be a better Christian and a better man for it. Just above, however, Julie Anne posed the question: Have the Pulpiteers done the same? Have they acknowledged their own wrongdoing towards Braxton Caner, before and after his death? (I’m thinking of Rhoblogy in particular. His comments were beyond the pale.)”
Yeah. I do love and respect Jordan and at least from my perspective he is sincere and contrite in his apology. I am not aware of all the charges against the contributors, even myself ,that would require and apology and admittance of wrong doing, but I’d be open to hear you out and examine myself. I know that I don’t agree with some of what Rhology has said and I publicly addressed it, as well as asked him about it privately. There are also many things that he said that I do agree with, so absent specifics I can’t speak too much more on that.
“If they haven’t apologized, publicly or privately to the Caners, and they haven’t seen the need to dial down their rhetoric, then I don’t see that they have any business calling out Ergun. Not until they demonstrate that they’re willing to behave more civilly in the future. As you know, there are many blogs that bring attention to abuse and nonsense from Christian leaders. If Caner steps out of line, I’m sure someone else will point it out. It doesn’t have to be Pulpit and Pen, and for the time being at least, I don’t think it should be. Like JD Hall, the Pulpiteers should probably save their breath to cool their own bowl of soup.”
I know that most of us have extended our condolences to Ergun at the loss of his son. As far as dialing down the rhetoric…I think that all things considered, compared not only to the rhetoric that other people have launched [I wrote a post on thepaperthinhymn.com about Craig D, for example, and his inflammatory and destructive tweets, but also in proportion to the situation, the rhetoric has been pretty even and level and thoughtful, even as we are frequently being baited and roasted by various people. Speaking for myself, I think I have been nothing if not gracious throughout this thing, with a few words directed towards Peter Lumpkins that I wish I would have held back juuuuust a little.
“Getting back to the original topic, I’m glad to hear that you support Christians seeking help from professional counselors and psychologists. It pains me to think that there are brothers and sisters who are being denied that kind of care when they need it. However, I don’t agree with you that Christians must or should insist upon getting counselled by someone with spiritual training (whatever that’s supposed to be). This is particularly relevant to me, living in Japan. What are the odds that I’ll find a professional therapist who’s also a Christian, should I ever need one? If it ever comes to that, I may have to be content with someone who respects my beliefs, even if he or she doesn’t fully understand them.”
Good thoughts, and again- thank you for this post. I liked and appreciated everything about it.
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“Thanks, Dustin. What about the tweets of other Pulpiteers who were following and joining along with JD as he pursued Braxton?”
You’ll have to be more specific. I say that because I have no idea who is a pulpiteer and who is not. I don’t know who they are and certainly don’t have any numbers on them or lists that lets me know who they are. There’s no sort of “sign up sheet” or anything like that. Perhaps Jordan has access to something that I don’t, but for the most part Pulpiteers are people who help disseminate information mostly and get free swag every now and then. Given that its really hard, if not impossible to know if some person saying something overly harsh, cruel or stupid is a pulpiteer or not.
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