***
Two Influential Christian leaders offer diverse responses regarding (1) professional counseling and (2) response to [adult] children with same-sex issues or identity.
Christiandom tends to follow church leaders when it comes to difficult life issues. Earlier, when reading an article at Religion News Service (RNS) by Adelle M. Banks, Russell Moore answers all you wanted to know about sex (but were afraid to ask), I was actually surprised to read a couple of things from Russell Moore. Russell Moore is President of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission. In this position, he has a big platform from which to share his opinion in conservative Christianity circles. Here is one of the excerpts that surprised me:
In March, Moore took on the topic of a sexless marriage, raised by a pastor of a small congregation, approached by a woman whose new husband had refused sex in the eight months since they wed.
“It seems that I am finding more and more young couples having sexual difficulties,” Moore said at the time.
In his response, Moore was direct. “This is a marriage in crisis,” he wrote.
Among his suggestions: Seek professional counseling to learn whether there was some unresolved trauma in the man’s life.
Seek professional counseling? It doesn’t say Biblical counseling or even Christian counseling, but professional counseling. What a nice surprise. I wonder if he will get any heat from that statement from those who believe anything other than Biblical counseling is evil – like John MacArthur. Here’s a little bit from an earlier article I did on John MacArthur regarding counseling:
Prominent church leader, John MacArthur has been very outspoken about the subject of psychology and his Master’s Seminary teaches against psychology:
Such a thing as a “psychological problem” unrelated to spiritual or physical causes is nonexistent. God supplies divine resources sufficient to satisfy completely all the spiritual needs. ~John MacArthur (Source)
John MacArthur would not encourage this man to go to professional counseling, but only to receive Biblical counseling.
Now here’s another interesting comment from Russell Moore from the RNS article, this time about parental response to gay children:
Moore has also advised parents not to reject their gay children: “Be clear about your convictions, and at the same time don’t exile your child from your life.”
This statement comes about a month or so after John MacArthur posted an article and video, “John MacArthur on How to Respond to a Homosexual Child.” The video is just under two minutes:
http://www.gty.org/blog/B140603/john-macarthur-on-how-to-respond-to-a-homosexual-child
Both of these are very powerful men in conservative Christiandom and so it’s very interesting to see these diverse statements. I will be keeping an eye on this.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Everyone has an opinion. Pastors certainly don’t have a unified approach going on at all. I know believers have temptations just as nonbelievers do, it is how we address those temptations and overcome them that matters. I would not shun my child even if Matt. 18 was enforced for any reason by the church. Not even sorry that I wouldn’t do it. I would not condone what they were doing, but not eating with them, I couldn’t do it.
In the case of not consummating a marriage for 8 months. I’m thinking there was not enough pre-marital counseling going on before this marriage took place. It really isn’t a marriage at all in my opinion. Yes I have opinions, too, lots of them. It is really quite sad. I did hear of a couple who never consumated their marriage because the husband said sex was gross and messy. At that time I think they had been married for 28 years. I wouldn’t have stayed married, but that’s just me.
As far as counseling is concerned, find who works for you. I personally chose a Christian when I was seperating from an abusive marriage, but read some books written by secular counselors that were very good and helpful.
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If nothing else, this shows that we shouldn’t be allowing these high-visibility Christian leaders any more credibility than our own pastors, or for that matter, or own interpretation of scripture.
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I agree with Brenda that an unconsummated marriage is not a marriage. A lot will depend on the husband’s will. If any of the problems suggested by Moore are there but he refuses to work on them, I think a divorce or annulment would be fully justified. (Is there such a thing as a legal annulment for non-Catholics?) That famous case from puritan Massachusetts of the husband who was ultimately excommunicated for refusing sex with his wife comes to mind.
With an adult child telling you they are gay, so much depends on the situation. MacArthur is correct that whether that person professes Christianity or not greatly influences how the parents should respond. A nonbeliever needs the gospel, first and foremost. A Christian who knows what the Bible teaches on this, and still struggles with unwanted same sex attraction is in a different place than someone who claims they can be a faithful Christian while living out a homosexual lifestyle. I do think that person still needs to know they are loved, even if they are not admitted to the Lord’s table, for example. In other words, have the attitude of the father for the prodigal son while not redefining what God calls sin. I can see shunning only if that person had become totally obnoxious about the whole thing to the point of lashing out regularly for not agreeing with him/her.
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Moore sometimes misses the mark, and at other times writes quite wisely. (Did you see his piece on gambling? Excellent.) I would hope that people who read prominent writers would exercise discernment in understanding their positions.
When I hear people say no Christian needs professional counseling, they come across like those who say no Christian needs to see a medical doctor. Both positions twist Scripture around to mean nothing like what it really says.
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Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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Whenever I hear “No Christian needs Worldly/Fleshly/Heathen Professional Counseling, only Biblical/Nouthetic Counseling”, I can’t help but think about Scientology and Dianetic Auditing.
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NJ,
It is paramount that the person (lifestyle issues or something else) seeking counseling know they are loved.
An unconsummated marriage poses a bit of a problem especially if intimacy issues weren’t part of the conservation between the couple or in counseling before the marriage even took place in the first place or one of spouse’s wasn’t honest with the other.
People seeking Biblically Counseling involving lifestyle issues may hit more road blocks if the Pastor lacks professional counseling credentials. Sensitive issues need sensitive counseling.
If I were to seek counseling I would seek a counselor with a combination of Biblical and Professional Credentials which I’m under the impression is a rare commodity.
The biggest problem I have however is many Pastor’s and Parents seem to think that pre-marital intimacy equates to an obligation into getting married, regardless if the couple love each other or not.
Judging by the amount of divorce occurring among Christians there isn’t enough qualified counseling going on, to prevent this from happening and thereby a lot of bad marriages are occurring and in many cases stimulating abuse.
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Sooooo . . . NJ . . . . “A Christian who knows what the Bible teaches on this, and still struggles with . . . ” gluttony . . . or pornography . . . or ‘fowl’ language . . . or anger . . . or, well, sin . . . not redefined, just plain and simple . . . sin struggles . . . let them know they are loved, but no enough to partake of ‘the Lord’s table’? Well, I’m out because I’m overweight. And once in a while, I blurt out a choice word or two. And, well, I’ve been known to lose my temper.
Aren’t we all “struggling” in some way? Does that mean that I am a lesser believer than you are? Oh, unless you have fully sanctified and perfect in every way. No wonder I stay away from not only the Lord’s table, but church all together. I struggle so I don’t deserve it.
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Ellen Wrote:
“Aren’t we all “struggling” in some way? Does that mean that I am a lesser believer than you are? Oh, unless you have fully sanctified and perfect in every way. No wonder I stay away from not only the Lord’s table, but church all together. I struggle so I don’t deserve it.”
You might be able to learn from Shmuley Boteach’s essay The Tyranny of Perfection, I sure did. Here’s the link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/the-tyranny-of-perfection_b_514338.html
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We have this thing called “authoritative preaching” that goes on in JMac’s circles. Ie, Tony Miano tells women that if they read the Bible, which is “authoritative,” then he believe women are putting themselves in an authority position. In John MacArthur’s case, he uses scripture and because it is used “authoritatively,” if you are arguing with JMac, you are arguing against God’s authoritative word. So, YOU are the problem, not them.
I think this Is the problem. We have MEN interpreting verses, applying the verses the way THEY want to interpret them based on THEIR knowledge (human knowledge, not God’s perfect knowledge). They get to claim this message is from God, when it is only their human fallible interpretation. But they hold their own interpretation up as a perfect interpretation of God’s word.
It seems a better way to say this is: My understanding from scripture is _______________, but I encourage you to check for yourself. A pastor’s job is to lead and guide. A pastor’s job should be to encourage people to think/study for themselves.
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Sheesh. So how does JM suggest dealing with schizophrenia? Bi-polar disorder? Suicidal depression? Etc, etc, etc. In the “good old days” they dealt with such things with, among other things, exorcism.
Somehow, I don’t think it was all that effective. I don’t see biblical counselors as equipped to deal with issues of brain chemical imbalances.
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I have a suggestion – how about thinking of ALL people as human beings??
Sheesh!
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Refugee, I remember hearing a JM rant on one of his radio shows a few years ago regarding brain chemistry problems. He categorically denied that most mental illness is related to brain chemistry. He said that “only about 3%” are, and those are the only people who should be taking anti-depressants or other psych drugs.
“No Grace for You” has long since dropped from my “willing to listen” list.
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Mark, agree with everthing you said.
Ellen, I believe we all have our patterns of sin, me included. “Well, I’m out because I’m overweight. And once in a while, I blurt out a choice word or two. And, well, I’ve been known to lose my temper. ” Same here. Nobody’s perfect this side of heaven, and we will have struggles with the flesh. That alone is not a reason to face church discipline.
When I refer to excommuncation, I’m thinking of situations like the one mentioned by the apostle Paul himself that occurred in the church of Corinth. Some guy was openly sleeping with his stepmother, and there were some who were actually proud of this situation! Paul found it necessary to tell them no, this behavior is not okay, and he needs to repent and turn from this. In some churches today, it seems like anything goes–including fornication, adultery, etc. among other very public sins. I will say that any church where it’s too dangerous to confess to certain sins and seek help should be avoided like the Black Death.
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I believe that pastors should return to preaching the things that they know best, namely THEOLOGY. They should preach nature of God, the orthodox Trinity and Christology, the Virgin Birth, the physical death resurrection of Jesus Christ, etc. Start teaching us something about our faith, for God’s sake! They should not be preaching to us or counseling us about sexuality or even how to live our lives. They’ve lost all moral authority on the issues of life applications, and as such they should stick to strictly spiritual matters.
If pastors are really concerned about how we live our lives, they should be instructing us to read the Holy Scriptures in particular to see what Jesus Christ Himself says on a particular topic. Let us read the Scriptures and figure it out for ourselves. Jesus Christ did not go on and on obsessing about our human sexuality. He made some statements about that, but devoted only a minor part of His teaching to such matters.
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“Whenever I hear “No Christian needs Worldly/Fleshly/Heathen Professional Counseling, only Biblical/Nouthetic Counseling”, I can’t help but think about Scientology and Dianetic Auditing.”
Bingo. That is another good take on this issue. Nouthetic counseling is just about as useful as dianetic auditing.
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Ryan,
In my view a Christian who seeks counseling, is better off pursuing someone that has a combined Biblical understanding of scripture and strong Professional Counseling background.
A rare quality indeed. Secular counseling doesn’t usually considered the teaching of Jesus in the equation and not all Pastors have the time needed or the expertise of providing professional counseling. (especially with sensitive issues)
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If I may, please… There was a time in my life when I needed that kind of service badly. Tried everything possible, and it took me NOWHERE! However, someone recommended a book titled Spiritual depression it’s causes and cures by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Since then this book never leaves my bedside. I bought many copies and gave them to people who seemed to be “symptomatic.” I thank God for this man. Please, please give it a try. Even if you don’t need it, you never know who may. If we are talking about biblical counselling, he is unmatched (in my humble opinion). It strengthened my faith very considerably, too.
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Oftentimes, supposed Christian or biblical counselling is neither Christian nor biblical. MacArthur’s solution is to get the guy saved first before chucking him out of the church and his home!
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Agree,
Spiritual depression it’s causes and cures by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
I will give it a read. If it can help others, it’s worth a shot. I am glad it has helped you. I
ll try to let you know after I have read it.
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I would not recommend Spiritual Depression to Martin Lloyd Jones to anyone. I found it to be a condemnation and shame fest. He also preaches that the Bible is more effective if it comes from the right source and is highly dependent on the men who speak it. My Bible says that the Word spoken by babes has God-ordained strength and has perfected praise.
But everyone has opinions, just like everyone has an arse. I happen to have a very low opinion of that book.
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Brenda R and Cindy K,
There are many good Christian books on depression that aren’t condemning toward those who struggle with it. This booklet is from a conservative viewpoint but recommends psychiatric treatment where needed. I have a connection with this author and know her work is balanced, sympathetic, and encouraging.
Depression, June Hunt, Hope for the Heart.
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Regarding a sexless marriage–it has a term “sexual anorexia.” And it is most often related to a sex addiction. We don’t hear that preached about much from the pulpits in our country but it is a huge problem, particularly within religious circles. But then to actually talk about it would presuppose that we agree with the psychology and addiction professionals and their continued research on this puzzling paradox.
Instead of solid information that sheds light on the hidden darkness in our homes, we have more shaming messages that generally places the responsibility for anything going wrong in the marriage on the wife. Wonder what Biblical counseling has to say about sexual anorexia? Nothing good, I’m believing.
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Mr. John MacArthur,
You say in regard to homosexuality, if a person claims to be a christian and ‘comes out’ but has no repentance we are to “isolate them, don’t have a meal with them…. we are to turn them over to Satan but, if they are non believers we ‘might’ want to show compassion…….”.
Well then, what are we to do with you as you continue to intentionally mislead the people while distorting the holy word of God to your liking: you teach Gnosticism. You have been warned numerous times by many people, yet you continue to choose not to repent rather you continue to follow the way of the enemy by not preaching the TRUTH. Which is worse Mr. MacArthur, being a homosexual or one who lies about God’s word?
Your arrogance is disgusting and it’s apparent you find pleasure in creating confusion among the people, but know this, it is men and women who blaspheme and tell lies about God word- who have not repented – those are the individuals we are called to hand over to Satan. One day, you will not have that smirk on your face when you stand before the almighty God.
No wonder a man who was a homosexual jumped off a bridge close to where I live not long ago after his partner died: he knew he would have no one else to love him.
Christianity is without love more and more.
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“I would not recommend Spiritual Depression by Martin Lloyd Jones to anyone”.
Nor would I.
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Wonder what Biblical counseling has to say about sexual anorexia? Nothing good, I’m believing.
Brenda, I’m thinking it would be taken far more seriously if it were the man saying that the wife was not interested or giving him his needs.
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Ok. This is just making me want to read the book so I will know what to say to people when I am not advising it.
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“This is just making me want to read the book so I will know what to say to people when I am not advising it”.
I agree! This is why I intentionally watch videos, listen to sermons and read books from many different individuals for myself in order to discuss the wise teachings from the false teachings.
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Ryan
I kinda like what you say @ AUGUST 21, 2014 @ 11:30 AM…
“Let us read the Scriptures and figure it out for ourselves.”
The only thing I would add is…
“Let us read the Scriptures and figure it out” with the help of Jesus. 😉
I mean, Jesus is the best teacher – Yes? 😉
And, I see the Scriptures saying, again and again, in different ways…
WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, can get “it” for ourselves, …
Directly from Jesus… NO middle man….
NO need for all the “Influential Christian leaders,” “church leaders,”
Who “offer diverse responses.”
When WE, His Kids can get “it” from Jesus, The “ONE” Leader.
Seems, Jesus, wants WE, His Kids, “To Hear His Voice” and learn from HIM.
John 10:27
My sheep **hear My voice,** and I know them, and they follow me:
Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which **I say?**
John 18:37
…Every one that is of the truth **heareth My voice.**
John 10:3
… and the sheep **hear His voice:** and he calleth his own sheep by name…
Heb 3:7-8
…as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will **hear His voice,**
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation…
Deut 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to **hear His voice,**
that *He might instruct thee*
Deut 5:24
…and we have **heard His voice** out of the midst of the fire:
we have seen this day that **God doth talk with man,** and he liveth.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
If not now? – When?
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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And, the Bible records, over and over again…
That God does speak to those who are His.
**Adam and Eve…Gen 3:8
And “they heard” **the voice of the LORD God** walking in the garden
**Abraham… Gen 26:5
Because that Abraham **obeyed MY voice,**
**Moses… Ex 3:14
And **God said** unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and **He Said,**
Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
I AM hath sent me unto you.
**Joshua and “ALL” the people… Joshua 24:24
And the people said unto Joshua,
The LORD our God will we serve, and **His Voice** will we obey.
**Paul… Ac 22:7
And I fell unto the ground,
and **heard a voice** saying unto me,
Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
**Peter… 2 Pet 1:17-18
This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And **this voice** which came from heaven **we heard,**
when we were with him in the holy mount.
**Jesus said… John 18:37
To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world,
that I should bear witness unto the truth.
Every one that is of the truth **heareth My voice.**
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How does John Mac teach gnosticism? Also, I would not recommend any Christian to a professional counselor who would not affirm Rom 1 and Eph 2
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Dustin –
Would you suggest the same requirement to a Christian needing a heart surgeon, a family practitioner, an ER doctor, an oncologist?
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Can you be more specific, Dustin? Those are big chapters. What exactly would you want affirmed?
Btw, do you ask your doctors if they are Christian before allowing them to treat you?
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Shoot, Bridget, I was reading in order and commenting and hadn’t gotten to yours. LOL
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On another note, a counselor is not a psychologist is not a psychiatrist. They are three distinct fields with different levels of training.
I would do much checking into the background of any person in any of these fields whether they are, or are not, a Christian. “Christian” is not a qualifier for anything.
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Bridget,
You make a great point regarding the qualifications of a physician. I make the same conclusion when it comes to our physical health..
I would be less trusting when it comes to personal struggles, (which usually affects our Spiritual Health) if the professional counselor wasn’t a Christian.
I believe a non-Christian counselor would be less concerned about our (Christian) spiritual well being which affects how we handle and cope with our inner struggles.
Not sure what Dustin is truthfully implying because the Media Outlet he is a part of openly will debate and humiliate kids to get to their parents. I would not recommend him as a credible counselor or for him to refer out.
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Dustin,
“How does John MacArthur teach Gnosticism ” – he teaches Lordship Salvation.
Gnosticism came from Platonism – the belief that the material realm is evil and only the spiritual realm is good. There are excellent resources you can research to help you better understand.
“I would not recommend any Christian to a professional counselor who would not affirm Rom. 1 and Eph 2”.
Is this because you hate them and wish for them to die – while following a preacher like John MacArthur’s advice to isolate and shun: hate them? Rather than following Jesus Christ who tells us to love our neighbor (who is our neighbor) as we love ourselves – you are telling me you would not love another individual by helping them to understand how he/she is called to live while pointing them to TRUTH? How can one help a homosexual…a sinner?
Can you tell me who qualifies as a professional counselor? Does the degree hanging on the wall determine in your eyes if one is properly equipped to counsel another human being? Do you understand to intentionally withhold good to another human being is to hate.
Are you claiming to have knowledge of how much a believer knows and understands about being a Christian and God’s word by referencing Rom 1 and Eph 2…..for what do they have to do with me loving another human being?
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Mark – I saw Dustin in that exchange and he was not approving of that behavior of going through kids to get to parents.
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Julie Anne,
He is affiliated with them as a matter of fact they are going to continue with Caner Project as P&P will continue on while JD will continue to expose his views and comments.
In my view if they were truly broken and repentant they stop being involved in Social Media. My solution is less harsh than Matt. 5:30.
There was another lengthy humiliating exchange with a different youth going through growing pains back in May, on that same site Dustin is affiliated with.
I find it difficult to recognize credibility with anyone affiliated with P&P who embrace repetitive heavy-handed tactics that lack any noticeable love or even “tough love” they proclaim to have.
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You have a good point. I was disappointed to see Hall back at the mic – – and so soon. Keep in mind, JD Hall represents himself. There’s a whole group involved with P&P and they are separate, yet the lines are not very clear with Hall still doing his Pulpit and Pen podcast. Dustin, if you are reading this, I think this would be something to bring up to the P&P powers that be. It’s confusing. What exactly is the relationship between P&P and Hall, between P&P and you? Where does P&P officially stand on the issue of going to children to get to their parents?
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Would you suggest the same requirement to a Christian needing a heart surgeon, a family practitioner, an ER doctor, an oncologist?
Can you be more specific, Dustin? Those are big chapters. What exactly would you want affirmed?
Btw, do you ask your doctors if they are Christian before allowing them to treat you?”
I would have no problem with an atheist/pagan doctor or surgeon working on me/healing me.
As for the latter. my issue is that the secular humanist therapist isn’t going to go along willingly with what the scriptures say about mankind and what our problem is, as well as the solution. For example, here is a portion from Ephesians 2
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
That’s going to give the secular humanist therapist apoplexy! We [every individual on this planet] followed the prince of the power of the air?! We followed Satan!? We were dead in our sins? Children of wrath!? Romans 6 says that all humanity is a slave to sin. That is one hell of a problem to have. Romans 3 says that no human does good and that no one is a good person. How is the secular humanist going to meaningfully interact with those actualities? Do you think they even believe that about mankind? Are they equipped to handle spiritual realities and matters of our intrinsic nature when they don’t even believe in it? How do they account for the Holy Spirit living inside of people, and the sanctifying work that he does? How do they deal with our list of sins that we must battle against? In fact, they are hostile to such beliefs- especially the big overarching one- that only being born again through faith in Christ can bring true peace of mind and joy
My view is pretty simple. Secular humanistic psychology may help a troubled mind and bring some solace, but I neither like or would endorse that, as it has at its core an unbiblical view of man and his human condition. It is all “needs based” with preys on selfishness and ego more than anything, and it is antithetical to the gospel and the human condition as laid out by God. I am also highly skeptical that they will just go along with the idea that man is a slave to sin and that only in abiding in Christ can they find true and everlasting joy. Or how about this- I don’t know many secular therapists who will go along with the idea that ones struggles and emotional and psychological problems may be the result of the harassment of demons. Are we to suppose that they would be adequately trained to address those spiritual realities?
Now, if a secular humanist psychologist can work within those realities and not dissaude people from them and thnking and believing them, then there is something to be said about that. But more often than not, I don’t think it’s the best course of action to pursue, particularily when I think there are better alternatives.
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and by “better alternatives I am referring to trained, professional counsellors, therapists, psychologists who are theologically informed psychotherapy and bring a distinctly pastoral therapeutically informed art of spiritual and moral counsel.
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“Dustin,
“How does John MacArthur teach Gnosticism ” – he teaches Lordship Salvation.
Gnosticism came from Platonism – the belief that the material realm is evil and only the spiritual realm is good. There are excellent resources you can research to help you better understand.
“I would not recommend any Christian to a professional counselor who would not affirm Rom. 1 and Eph 2″.
Is this because you hate them and wish for them to die – while following a preacher like John MacArthur’s advice to isolate and shun: hate them? Rather than following Jesus Christ who tells us to love our neighbor (who is our neighbor) as we love ourselves – you are telling me you would not love another individual by helping them to understand how he/she is called to live while pointing them to TRUTH? How can one help a homosexual…a sinner?
Can you tell me who qualifies as a professional counselor? Does the degree hanging on the wall determine in your eyes if one is properly equipped to counsel another human being? Do you understand to intentionally withhold good to another human being is to hate.
Are you claiming to have knowledge of how much a believer knows and understands about being a Christian and God’s word by referencing Rom 1 and Eph 2…..for what do they have to do with me loving another human being?
”
Pondering..you are being super intense.
1. I don’t believe Lordship Salvation is Gnosticism in any way shape or form- even by its own definition. I personally believe it. I think the idea that you can have an encounter with God, being baptized in the spirit, going from death to life- slaves of sin to freedom in Christ- heart of flesh from heart of stone, being raised with Christ, holy spirit living inside of you- all of that. To say that all that has happened, but then consequently is has no impact whatsoever on how you live your life, and makes no difference to your worldview, works, deeds, outlook. thoughts, etc- i just don’t see that. *
As far as wishing homosexuals to die? No, I’ve no wish for that, and neither does MacArthur. I also would reject that his advice is akin to hatred, but rather love- one which you are free to disagree with.
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“On another note, a counselor is not a psychologist is not a psychiatrist. They are three distinct fields with different levels of training.
I would do much checking into the background of any person in any of these fields whether they are, or are not, a Christian. “Christian” is not a qualifier for anything.”
Yup. sound advice
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Dustin,
How would you propose to Biblically counsel a servicemen coming back from Afghanistan who is suffering from PTSD (flashbacks, nightmares)? How would you counsel someone who was violently abused their whole childhood who was told devaluing messages and cut down so emotionally that they have no desire to live?
How is this message going to help someone who is the victim of someone else’s hateful sin and is already self-destructing due to the barrage of messages told to them their abuser: We [every individual on this planet] followed the prince of the power of the air?! We followed Satan!? We were dead in our sins? Children of wrath!? Romans 6 says that all humanity is a slave to sin. How do they deal with our list of sins that we must battle against?
Do you really think telling a someone who is so deep in despair that they are a sinner is going to be helpful?
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“Not sure what Dustin is truthfully implying because the Media Outlet he is a part of openly will debate and humiliate kids to get to their parents. I would not recommend him as a credible counselor or for him to refer out.”
We`re not really a media outlet- more like a blog with a podcast. Second of all- no one “debated” Braxton- the description you’re using is needlessly inflammatory. As far as “humiliate kids to get to their parents” I would point you to JD’s apology which describe his intents and motivations.
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Paperthinhymn,
Could you please give me a few referrals of professional counsellors, therapists, psychologists who are theologically informed psychotherapy?
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Dustin,
How would you propose to Biblically counsel a servicemen coming back from Afghanistan who is suffering from PTSD (flashbacks, nightmares)? How would you counsel someone who was violently abused their whole childhood who was told devaluing messages and cut down so emotionally that they have no desire to live?
How is this message going to help someone who is the victim of someone else’s hateful sin and is already self-destructing due to the barrage of messages told to them their abuser: We [every individual on this planet] followed the prince of the power of the air?! We followed Satan!? We were dead in our sins? Children of wrath!? Romans 6 says that all humanity is a slave to sin. How do they deal with our list of sins that we must battle against?
Do you really think telling a someone who is so deep in despair that they are a sinner is going to be helpful?
I do. Now to be sure I want to be real careful here. I deeply value professional psychologists and therapists who are actually professionally trained and equipped to handle different fields. I think anyone who seeks to dissuade, shame or stigmatize people from getting professional help ought to be rebuked.
For this reason I think people with PTSD or who were abused or whatever ought to seek counsel, and the best thing for them would have that professional be theologically trained [and even then you can have some whackjobs. it has to be the RIGHT PERSON] . I think that the spiritual realities can and ought to be worked into the discussion at different points in times- maybe in weeks, maybe in months, maybe in years.
I’m not advocating a super blunt, in your face “your dad had sex with you? you just need to know you’re a sinner!” That is crazy. The psychologist I have spoken to, and read books from have struck me as really sensitive to these sorts of things and introduced the spiritual quotient when it is necessary and appropriate, which will be different for everyone. But I do believe that people deep in despair need to understand their spiritual condition- but how, why and and when that happens is not for me to say.
Have you read this book here or heard of it? It is the source for much of my understanding “http://www.amazon.com/Counseling-Hard-Cases-Illustrating-Sufficiency/dp/1433672227È
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“Could you please give me a few referrals of professional counsellors, therapists, psychologists who are theologically informed psychotherapy?”
Please call me Dustin. I did link to one in the most recent post, but I’d rather not go off on this tangent until we hash out the issues of lordship salvation. Did you have any response to my thoughts?
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“He is affiliated with them as a matter of fact they are going to continue with Caner Project as P&P will continue on while JD will continue to expose his views and comments.”
I am affiliated with the P&P. I am the managing editor . We also do plan on going ahead with the Caner project, in whatever form that takes. Quite frankly there is no real reason not to, as the concerns it raises [unrepentant, open liar Christian leader who is a bully and seeks to squash the truth and has never apologized] have not gone away or died down or dissipated. I also really like Jordan and appreciate his voice and his thoughts, and I would be very disappointed if he ever left the program
In my view if they were truly broken and repentant they stop being involved in Social Media. My solution is less harsh than Matt. 5:30.
Fair enough. I don’t feel the same way.
“There was another lengthy humiliating exchange with a different youth going through growing pains back in May, on that same site Dustin is affiliated with.”
What specifically are you referring to and what made it humiliating?
“I find it difficult to recognize credibility with anyone affiliated with P&P who embrace repetitive heavy-handed tactics that lack any noticeable love or even “tough love” they proclaim to have.”
I don’t embrace heavy handed tactics as you probably understand them,
.
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What do you mean they need to know their spiritual condition? That they are a sinner? Is that what you mean?
The author of Counseling Hard Cases, Stuart Scott:
associate professor of biblical counseling (2005); executive director, national center of biblical counseling http://www.sbts.edu/theology/faculty/stuart-scott/
Dr. Scott comes to Southern Seminary with over twenty-five years of experience in counseling and pastoral ministry, including ten years as associate pastor of family ministries and counseling at Grace Community Church in the Los Angeles area with Pastor John MacArthur. Prior to joining the faculty at Southern Seminary/Boyce College, Dr. Scott served on the faculty of The Master’s College and Seminary in the area of biblical counseling. He is a Fellow and member of the board of the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors (NANC) and a member of the Association of Biblical Counselors (ABC). Scott is the author of The Exemplary Husband, From Pride to Humility: A Biblical Perspective, and Conflict Resolution (Focus) and is a contributor to the book, Think Biblically (Crossway).
No, Dustin, I would never recommend anyone who is suffering depression, PTSD, or any other mental health issue to EVER read one of this man’s books or anything from John MacArthur. Are you aware of the young man who committed suicide under JMac’s watch who had to wrestle with the fact that he knew he needed mental health care, was a Master’s student and knew that JMac/Masters are strictly against any mental health care? I cannot imagine the internal battle this young man faced. MacArthur and Stuart Scott are ill-equipped to handle mental health issues. Pastoral counseling, maybe, mental health? No way. They have no clue.
Dustin, I went to Biblical counseling when I had PTSD. I went several times a week. I prayed. I read my Bible. I surrounded myself with godly people. I got worse. It wasn’t until I went to a Christian psychologist – someone who was an expert in understanding behavioral response to trauma – that I received help and could finally cope with life. Please do not direct people who are in desperate need of mental health care to “Biblical counseling” or nouthetic counseling.
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Dustin,
On May 22 there was a 128 response thread, of Pulpit raising a credible concern regarding a questionable video in Ronnie Floyd’s church. During that 128 response thread, JD exchanged words back and forth with a teen-aged son of one the leaders in that church. (to me that certain exchange was an embarrassment which should’ve been handled more privately)
“Canerize the Canerization” what is that? Making a mockery of someone’s birth name. It isn’t love or “tough love” it is hateful when you think about it.
We don’t agree with Pulpits tactics.
P&P’s behavior is predatory and your repetitive Crusades is heavy handed. Rather than slamming someone over and over after you raise a concern, you need to exercise some faith and lean on the Holy Spirit rather than constantly take matters into you own hands.
Teenagers go through enough pressure and being a PK makes it a lot harder.
None of us can imagine the added pressure Braxton was feeling after his public exchange with JD. It must of exacerbated more pressure at the hands of Pulpit and Pen already relentless crusade to go after Dr. Caner and how it was effecting the Caner Family. The word humiliation comes to mind but that word doesn’t give it justice.
I see nothing but Heavy-Handedness by those who belong to the Pulpit and Pen organization.
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‘We also do plan on going ahead with the Caner project, in whatever form that takes. Quite frankly there is no real reason not to, as the concerns it raises [unrepentant, open liar Christian leader who is a bully and seeks to squash the truth and has never apologized] have not gone away or died down or dissipated. I also really like Jordan and appreciate his voice and his thoughts, and I would be very disappointed if he ever left the program”
Dustin, Just curious why you guys don’t focus on SGM/CJ Mahaney with the same laser like focus, Molested children over a long period of time in quite a few of their churches is serious business. Blackmail is serious for a pastor. Yet, you guys have ignored them. How about Driscoll and plagiarism?
It was very nice of the discernment blogs to give Hall a pass and “believe” his apology. Based upon past experience and a long time pattern of behavior, I was not buying instant repentance and saw it as a PR move that tends to work with the Christian market. I think your announcement here proves that point. P&P don’t think the Caners have suffered enough.
But Wade can be so persuasive to some.
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Dustin,
Please know, I absolutely do find JM words spoken in the video appalling and misleading. They are words spoken without love for another human being and are instead words of hate. Also, it does not surprise me that you call JM methods love, I read about how Braxton Caner was treated, the kind of love that was shown to him from another man within your group at the P & P.
At what age are we to begin shunning and not eating meals with ones child, who as JM says, has ‘come out’? Who determines the appropriate age, your psychotherapists? Where are they to go once we are instructed to ‘isolate’ them? You’ve only further narrowed down the people a person who is a homosexual can receive help from.
You said, “But I do believe that people deep in despair need to understand their spiritual condition – but how, why and when that happens is not for me to say”.
Dustin….if one is deep in despair how are they to understand their spiritual condition?
There are numerous reasons people are homosexuals, many have been abused for example. This is a personal sin we are talking about not a crime against another person. To be taught as a parent to intentionally turn our backs and choose to not love a child by no longer allowing them in our lives by isolating them, is to hate them. Dustin, hate is suffocating while leading to death whether spiritual or physical, you should NEVER forget Braxton’s life and what happened after hate was shown to him. Far too many homosexuals have committed suicide, JM should know this by now especially since a student at his college committed suicide, after being shunned.
I have nothing to ‘hash out’ with you or anyone else. You are free to live your life following and believing what and whom you choose. Is it safe to say you are a follower of J Calvin?
“Caner project in whatever form that takes” What in the world is this? More hate in ‘whatever form it takes’ ? This is most concerning, you are intentionally going to continue to pursue a father who is still grieving the loss of his son? Mr. Caner and his family need to be warned of your intentions. Where does God call us to make projects of people and their sin?
Dustin, it is people like you who God warns his people to stay away from. Your thinking is hateful and dangerous: your pulpit and pen is wicked and I encourage you to lay them down before someone else dies.
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So good to see you Lydia!
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Is this the same Lydia who comments on Peter Lumpkins blog?
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Julie. Yes, I am talking specifically about Christians getting counselled by another Christian and having those things I mentioned being a part of the discussion, or at least some of them part of it, if it’s relevent or now. I’m glad you got professional Christian counselling- I think that’s great and as it should be. Also, do you have a kindle or an ereader app? if so I can send you the book if you want to read it. And lastly, though i have a conviction and opinion on this, I hold it loose handedly, as I’ve just started reading this stuff.
I do know that a would cringe and scream at much of what passes for “christian counselling” these days- i think it can be unhelpful at best and destructive at worst, and so my desire for a “Christian who is a therapist/psychologist” should not be taken as a blanket endorsement of the broad spectrum of differing beliefs, schools, techniques, philosophies, practices of Christian professional counselors, and so if you have any blogs or resources you could point me to, I’d be open to reading who/what you think is best.
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Dustin, Just curious why you guys don’t focus on SGM/CJ Mahaney with the same laser like focus, Molested children over a long period of time in quite a few of their churches is serious business. Blackmail is serious for a pastor. Yet, you guys have ignored them. How about Driscoll and plagiarism?
It was very nice of the discernment blogs to give Hall a pass and “believe” his apology. Based upon past experience and a long time pattern of behavior, I was not buying instant repentance and saw it as a PR move that tends to work with the Christian market. I think your announcement here proves that point. P&P don’t think the Caners have suffered enough.
But Wade can be so persuasive to some.”
We focus on the Caner because we do- I can’t speak for the motivations or reasons that others might. For myself, I do it because I find it particularly insidious in how it has all worked out, and it has gripped my attention- that along with the ensuing cover-up and the personalities involved who are trying to hide an on-going issue make it dead to my heart, based on prior life experiences.
As for Mahaney or Driscoll- there are people of people going after them and bringing those things to light, in big public ways [Think Warren Throckmorton]. We only have so many resources and projects that we can manage, and at least fro myself, While I have publicly taken issue with Driscoll and written about him on my blog, for lack of a better word- I have other fish to fry.
And its not about suffering enough, or wanting someone to suffer enough. If Mahaney or Drsicoll or Morales a couple of years ago had a personal tragedy, would you want everyone to completely back off? Would you want the people who have issue with Driscoll to just walk away and leave him alone because “he has suffered enough”? As long as Caner is unrepentant [he has never apologized or admitted wrong doing] and is still trying to silence whole families and bully them in this respect, and has people working for him who are doing all they can do to the same thing, then I personally have no intention to stop loving him by calling him to repentance, so that his soul may be unburdened and his mind set free.
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Lydia,
When paperthinhymn said he is the managing editor P&P, and “We also do plan on going ahead with the Caner project, in whatever form that takes,” he lost me. I’m not familiar with the whole Caner situation, but I respect your assessment, which I take to be to the effect of enough is enough.
Because of it’s association with Hall (are his initial initials JD? I lose track.) P&P will forever be associated with unanswerable questions surrounding the suicide of Caner’s son. Likewise, wasn’t John McArthur involved in some big lawsuit or other over a suicide? Didn’t McArthur and/or his church basically just disclaim responsibility? Didn’t the courts end up taking their side so that they no longer need be concerned about any kind of meaningful accountability when their version of “truth” catastrophically fails? Help me out here. Maybe it wasn’t McArther at all. These are just questions, but whether it was McArthur or some other preacher or church, don’t I have a basis to be concerned about the dangers of these anti-secular-counseling-it’s-all-about-your-sin types present?
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Gary, I find them (P&P, JD Hall, James White, etc) despicable and totally misrepresenting Jesus Christ in almost ALL things.
They do want to make it about sides because that feeds the war. If you comment here or there then you are automatically on a specific side and in total agreement. (It operates much like twitter has over Ferguson. It is Orwellian. You either agree with all of it or you are automatically placed on the opposite side and believe all they believe)
That is how they think even though there is a campaign right now to engage people outside their bubble since they got some discernment blogs to believe JD Hall’s instant repentance apology. Dustin here and other discernment blogs right now is PR. Not that they are good at it. But the actual war against Caner continues, if you notice.
They have not matured enough to understand “sides” is not how life should work for believers who actually like to think issues through. Much of what is going on seems to be revenge for things going back 6 years because what on earth is the point at this point?. Caner lost his big job at Liberty and now his son committed suicide. Caner was bombastic in many of his responses to them back then.
But if I say enough is enough and Caner has suffered enough, then I am automatically endorsing sin and every single word Caner has ever uttered. See how that works?
Our focus should be warning people in these movements but not trying to totally destroy those we do not like or disagree with. (Although P&P will call any disagreement an “attack” and a “crucifixion” as they love hyperbole when it comes to heir whining). Our focus should be reaching people inside these cults, movements, whatever, to warn them. Not destroying people by going after their kids, dogging them in every new job, etc. When the money dries up, they will go away and pop up somewhere else. It is what they do. It is all they know. What is Driscoll going to do? Sell insurance? What would JD Hall do? Go build another “million dollar” sales record? (What was the name of that company Dustin?)
This went way beyond “calling out” a few years ago. And look where it ended up? Was a lesson learned from this group of “Christian” attack sin police? I think not.
Remember: They think the same way Calvin in Geneva thought. And if you have read how Geneva operated under Calvin, you will know that is not a good thing. It is a vile and vicious position.
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Gary, I did a blog post about the John MacArthur lawsuit and suicide case. Would that young man have been alive today had he had the support from Grace Community pastors to get the mental health help he needed?
The internal conflict he surely faced knowing he needed help, but trying to obey his spiritual leaders at the same time must have been great.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/04/12/how-do-churches-handle-difficult-mental-health-cases-biblical-counseling-and-the-law/
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“And its not about suffering enough, or wanting someone to suffer enough. If Mahaney or Drsicoll or Morales a couple of years ago had a personal tragedy, would you want everyone to completely back off?”
Note the clever way Dustin frames this. Morales is a CRIMINAL who was convicted and sentenced to prison for molesting children at SGM. So far, neither Mahaney or Driscoll have been indicted with a crime or brought up on civil charges.
(Note to readers: Always watch how they frame every single response. They are very clever)
So let us take a hypothetical situation: Driscoll’s teen committed suicide after being bullied online by one of her dads critical “groups” AND after Driscoll lost his big job at Mars Hill and is working at a much smaller church as an employee. He has lost his celebrity status except for constantly being dogged by those groups critical of him from years back.
I would say the decent, honorable thing to do would be to back off. I would not kick a dog when he is down. That is cruel and heartless. It is Calvin’s Geneva. Reminds me of how Castillo was treated.
And it is about wanting Caner to suffer more. He made some folks in your movement furious 6 years ago.
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Julie Anne,
Thanks for reminding me of your article. It’s likely the the reason I was somehow associating McArthur’s name with suicide following failed counseling. And yes, I am firmly convinced that “pastors,” including John McArthur need to be able to recognize when they are in over their heads and refer to somebody who knows what they are doing. While there may be a call to deal with sin as it relates to despair, any pastor worth the name would be able to do it in love. Our Lord certainly did. There are also cases where despair is a consequence of trauma, or organic brain conditions, or any other number things where sin is not the central issue.
I am tempted to say the Love trumps truth. However, it must be recognized that without Love there is no Truth.
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These guys all seem like a lynch mob that won’t go away when the sheriff comes out and tells them to all go home the judge is on His way.
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Dustin,
I answered your questions last night at 6:37. Even referred to a May 22 P^P exchange JD had with a different youth. I did forget to mention that you can’t force people to repent, just like I can;t force P&P to repent.
After reviewing our interesting exchange it is unclear to me that the P&P gang will ever repent, as P&P fail to recognize that your crusade to go after Dr. Caner has been excessive and sinful.
Meaning that you should be more concerned about your own soul rather than trying to force feed your brand of repentance on others.
After our exchange it is clear P&P may never realize how far is too far and because you have no answers you have given yourselves a pass. You make your own predetermination on whether you think others have repented. when God is the one that can make that determination
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you should be more concerned about your own soul rather than trying to force feed your brand of repentance on others.
Mark,
Amen!!
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Dustin,
Have you ever read or listened to J. MacArthur’s testimony on his own website? As an editor, you certainly can evaluate the situation very quickly. The man is NOT SAVED! Listen to him with open ears. He NEVER repented because he was and is (simple inference) sinless. His parents modelled Christianity in such a wonderful way that he just simply absorbed it by osmosis. His Christianity is his parents and grandparents faith. Listen also to the remarks of his right hand man (interviewer) – Phil Johnson. And… Conclude for yourself. Before you start recommending him for anything and to anyone, pray for the man’s salvation… This is serious. All in his own words. On his own site.
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I intend to answer any and all questions asked to me directly- i’m at work now so \I can’t get into too much, other than to say than to say that I’m not here for “PR” as has been suggested, but rather I came at the invite of Julie regarding another post.
And also Brenda, if regards to your last post “you should be more concerned about your own soul rather than trying to force feed your brand of repentance on others.” could the same not be said about MD?
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That’s true. I did invite Dustin to respond to the discussion. Thanks for that, Dustin.
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could the same not be said about MD?
Dustin, If you are referring to Mark Driscoll–Yes certainly. To date, I haven’t heard of him verbally engaging a young boy who later took his own life. Not that I am excusing him in anyway. I do not believe he should be preaching anywhere.
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Dustin,
In your respose to Brenda, the same could be said for all of us
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In your respose to Brenda, the same could be said for all of us
Mark, That is true.
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Brenda and Mark- you both misunderstand me. I’m saying that people are saying “Just leave Ergun alone- drop it- stop attacking him- stop trying to expose him, stop suggesting that he has sinned- -stop calling him to repentance-enough is enough” and yet you will not apply the same standard to other people like Driscoll or any Christian leader behaving badly. I don’t hear calls to leave Mark or the SGMs alone. I don’t hear people saying “Just leave Mahaney and his leadership team alone.” Why is that? Why apply an inconsistent standard?
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Dustin,
This site focuses on Spiritual Abuse and crime much of it, is unresolved. This site never gave JD or P&P much attention until Braxton;s life ended.
Again, you fail to realize “how far is too far”. We all get it, I’m sure Dr. Caner must have a clear view of your position as you have excessively made your views clear in Social Media sites. And because you fail to realize boundaries the P & P gang should avoid Social Media sites altogether.
I realize you may need a little time to review the May 22 exchange JD had with a teen-aged son of a church leader over a questionable video. I did suggest to JD he needed to delete that dialogue and keep it private and express his concerns to the elder’s of Ronnie Floyd;s church.
As for a Canerize the Canerization thread on P & P, why mock?
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Agree,
I have listened to his testimony. Ive also listened to almost 40 years of his sermons on podcast, which took me a little over a year. I have no reason to believe he is not a Christian, even as I disagree with him on some tertiary issues like eschatology, consumption of alcohol, views on music, etc.
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“I intend to answer any and all questions asked to me directly- i’m at work now so \I can’t get into too much, other than to say than to say that I’m not here for “PR” as has been suggested, but rather I came at the invite of Julie regarding another post.”
Well, that is not what I meant at all. I have been following you guys from the peanut gallery for several years and my conclusion is you would not have wiped your feet here before the JD Hall episode. That is my opinion which does not count for much, I know.
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“I don’t hear calls to leave Mark or the SGMs alone. I don’t hear people saying “Just leave Mahaney and his leadership team alone.” Why is that? Why apply an inconsistent standard?”
I gave you a scenario here:
“So let us take a hypothetical situation: Driscoll’s teen committed suicide after being bullied online by one of her dads critical “groups” AND after Driscoll lost his big job at Mars Hill and is working at a much smaller church as an employee. He has lost his celebrity status except for constantly being dogged by those groups critical of him from years back.”
The difference is also most folks I see are not going after the leader in the same way you guys do. They are reporting on behavior, words, etc and warning their followers. There comes a time when the dog you have been hunting is wounded and down. It becomes cruelty to continue.
I realize you might not be able to discern the difference.
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Lydia, are you the same one that frequents Peter Lumpkins blog? And as far as what your opinion counts to me, I give it the same weight as I do everyone I interact with. I assume best intentions and honest interactions as long as I can, and when it becomes apparent to me that this is not viable, then I may choose to respond intermittently. As for now, we’re on the same playing field and I will give you every grace and kindness extend anyone else.
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I think Dustin has commented here before (maybe not as friendly – haha). And I did a post on JD Hall last year on his children’s nightmare book.
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“Lydia, are you the same one that frequents Peter Lumpkins blog? And as far as what your opinion counts to me, I give it the same weight as I do everyone I interact with. I assume best intentions and honest interactions as long as I can, and when it becomes apparent to me that this is not viable, then I may choose to respond intermittently. As for now, we’re on the same playing field and I will give you every grace and kindness extend anyone else.”
Now, that is better PR. :o) It shows that you have the “ability” to speak with some grace when on a level playing field. (wink)
I have commented on many blogs. Even some atheist ones. (GASP)
JD once claimed I was actually Peter using a girls name. He came too late to the net to read Peter and my rousing debates back in the old SBC wild west Outpost days. :o)
According to what I have read from your groups doctrinal beliefs and behaviors thereof over a period of time, I would be considered a bonafide heretic of the worst sort worthy of hunting. A Pelagian, Mutualist, etc. However, you might have some affinity with parts of my libertarian bent. :o)
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Dustin,
I don’t believe I misunderstand you at all. You went too far. You weren’t pushing the man, his won was pushed. His repentance is between himself and God. If you have issues with other pastors, there families are not a part of it and are off limits.God calls people to repentance, not you. If you went in a spirit of love and sat down with this man and said, “Hey we noticed that in your teaching you are doing ______. We love you and we hope that you will get this straightened out.” I would have no problem with that whatsoever. The tactics that are being used are reprehensible, unbiblical, immoral and downright anti-Christian. Jesus is being forgotten in all of this. Jesus is not a part of this.
Brenda
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Dustin said:
“We focus on the Caner because we do- I can’t speak for the motivations or reasons that others might. For myself, I do it because I find it particularly insidious in how it has all worked out, and it has gripped my attention- that along with the ensuing cover-up and the personalities involved who are trying to hide an on-going issue make it dead to my heart, based on prior life experiences. ”
I’m quite sure that you would not focus on Caner if Caner belonged church’s such as:
1. The Church of the Nazarene
2. Church of Christ
3. Church of God
4. Brownsville Community Church
5. Christ the Rock Church
6. The list goes on and on.
You only focus on Caner because he belongs to a denomination related to your interests.
Calvinism is creeping into, which is very creepy indeed, into the SBC, in which Caner, being a Baptist, wants nothing to do with Calvinism.
Isn’t that the real reason that you won’t give it up? It really has nothing to do with the lies that Caner told anyone. You want Caner out, no matter what he did or said. You don’t want Caner to repent to God alone. You want Caner to repent to you, right?
Your treatment of Caner is just one reason that you have no credibility to advise anyone of anything spiritual, let alone psychological.
My suggestion to you, stay out of religion, and get a relationship with Jesus, and leave other people alone, in peace.
Ed
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Amen, Ed.
I wanted to tell you I just watched “God’s Not Dead”, at your suggestion. Great movie. I did have to press pause to find the box of tissues.
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Brenda,
I’m so glad that you liked it. I just watched it again the night before last myself over at a friends house.
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“”Dustin,
I don’t believe I misunderstand you at all. You went too far. You weren’t pushing the man, his won was pushed. His repentance is between himself and God. If you have issues with other pastors, there families are not a part of it and are off limits.”
You’ll have to qualify what you said a bit with your references to “you.” I did not know Braxton was going to be engaged, nor did I think it was a good idea. I have publicly stated my displeasure at it having been done and I believe based on the motivations that it was sin to do so.
“God calls people to repentance, not you”
This is not the case. In the scriptures you see all manner of men calling others to repentance. In once sense God works repentance in the hearts of men and women, sure, but the example we see in the Bible over and over is men calling people to repent. For example, Acts 8:22 “Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.”
“If you went in a spirit of love and sat down with this man and said, “Hey we noticed that in your teaching you are doing ______. We love you and we hope that you will get this straightened out.” I would have no problem with that whatsoever.
This has been done before. First of all, Ergun will not sit down or listen to anyone who tries to talk to him about this, even friends of his. But you have to answer the question- what then? When he utterly and completely rejects the need to repent, and says that he hasn’t done anything wrong and has been completely exonerated, I don’t believe the best thing to do is just leave it alone and say “God will deal with him, no need for me to say anything.”
“The tactics that are being used are reprehensible, unbiblical, immoral and downright anti-Christian. Jesus is being forgotten in all of this. Jesus is not a part of this.”
You’ll have to specify the scope of what “tactics” entail. If you mean bringing children into the mix to get to Ergun- yeah, I would agree with you. If you mean blog post articles about new lies that pop up, or writing about his newest attempts to bully and quiet families who release videos of him lying to people, then I don’t agree that such tactics are immoral.
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“I’m quite sure that you would not focus on Caner if Caner belonged church’s such as:
1. The Church of the Nazarene
2. Church of Christ
3. Church of God
4. Brownsville Community Church
5. Christ the Rock Church
6. The list goes on and on.
You only focus on Caner because he belongs to a denomination related to your interests.”
You have no basis for saying that. I have spoken about different people across differing denominational groups. I did not know Caner was SBC when I first encountered him and started writing about him.
“Calvinism is creeping into, which is very creepy indeed, into the SBC, in which Caner, being a Baptist, wants nothing to do with Calvinism. ”
Its true that Caner doesn’t like Calvinism, but that’s fine because this issue isn’t about that. If you can point me to how my specific grievances have to do with Calvinism and are necessarily related, then pelase do.
“Isn’t that the real reason that you won’t give it up? It really has nothing to do with the lies that Caner told anyone. You want Caner out, no matter what he did or said. You don’t want Caner to repent to God alone. You want Caner to repent to you, right?”
No. more assertions without any evidence. Mark Drsicoll is a Calvinist, and I want him out. I fid it’s not wise to try to speculate on people’s motives, particularily when you have no basis for doing so.
“Your treatment of Caner is just one reason that you have no credibility to advise anyone of anything spiritual, let alone psychological.”
You’ll have to elaborate of what treatment of mine, personally and specifically, you are referring to.
“My suggestion to you, stay out of religion, and get a relationship with Jesus, and leave other people alone, in peace.”
I appreciate these thoughts. I do have a relationship with Jesus, though I have no intention of leaving Caner alone. Essentially you are telling me to stop loving Caner, but rather you want me to hate him. I won’t do this. I will not hate him just because you want me to, but rather I will insist that he must be prayed for, and loved, and seek to have him reconciled. For now of course he is grieving and so I jave no intention of acting out towards him, but after a time has passed I may indeed continue to.
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Dustin,
Repent just means to change your mind. It does not mean to verbally apologize to anyone.
Dustin said:
In once sense God works repentance in the hearts of men and women, sure, but the example we see in the Bible over and over is men calling people to repent. For example, Acts 8:22 “Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.”
Exodus 32:14
And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Who does God repent to, if repentance is a verbal “I’m sorry”?
Change of mind is all it means.
Ed
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”
Now, that is better PR. :o) It shows that you have the “ability” to speak with some grace when on a level playing field.”
I always have grace. Though you haven’t answered the question directly, I will assume it is you. Mostly I’m asking because I have seen you launch some volleys at me on Peter’s blog, and I have wanted to respond and engage you a bit but Peter moderates….aggressively….and only lets through about 1 out of every 10 posts I put. So if it is you, hopefully we can chit-chat here with less censorship.
“According to what I have read from your groups doctrinal beliefs and behaviors thereof over a period of time, I would be considered a bonafide heretic of the worst sort worthy of hunting. A Pelagian, Mutualist, etc. However, you might have some affinity with parts of my libertarian bent. :o)”
I don’t know what your specific beliefs are, so I can’t comment on that. I would not ascribe beliefs to you that would not ascribe to yourself, though i hope for your sake you are not a pelegian. I can confirm that I am a reformed guy who holds to the doctrines of grace, and I play nice with others who don’t share my theological convictions.
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Dustin,
You don’t love Caner. You can’t fool me with your treatment of him that you love Caner. Don’t even go there. Actions speak louder than words.
You said:
“though I have no intention of leaving Caner alone”
Well, did you know that the Bible calls that being a busy body? A tattle tail, a tail bearer, and gossip?
Caner has no intention of doing what you people demand. Leave it alone and let it go. Your fight is futile. You let God worry about Caner, and you worry about yourself. Worry about your own church. Caner is not of your church. He wants nothing to do with you people. You are only provoking a fight. You are in the wrong here, not Caner.
Leave him alone.
Ed
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I have no intention of acting out towards him (corrected spelling)
Acting out? Isn’t that what a young child does when they have been mistreated or possibly not getting their own way. If you do not believe that the exchange between the adults and Braxton was right, why are you still working with them? Shouldn’t you be going after them to repent.
I define repentance as more than changing your mind. I define it as a heart change and going in a completely different direction.
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Dustin,
Proverbs 11:13 (KJV)
A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.
Leviticus 19:16 (KJV)
Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people
1 Timothy 5:13 (KJV)
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
James 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
I guess that the exe-JESUS folks skipped these, huh?
Ed
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Proverbs 20:19
He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips.
Proverbs 26:20
Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.
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Proverbs 20:3
It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.
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Dustin said:
“I play nice with others who don’t share my theological convictions.”
This is where they put up the “Laugh” sign in the studio audience.
Does Caner share his theological convictions? What does “nice” look like?
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ED,
You are not going to penetrate P & P’s heart.
If they haven’t realized by now that they have exceeded the boundaries of expressing their views and wish to continue these strange crusades, we have to leave it in God’s hands.
You have given him verses to live by.
I have given several candid examples of some of their untimely heavy-handed methods that quite frankly go too far and received them with deaf ears and blinds eyes.
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Mark,
Agree. Let the blind lead the blind, I suppose. Dust my feet.
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Ed,
“dust my feet” is something P & P should’ve done before Braxton’s passing. They will never identify boundaries in their Methodology.
If we don’t “dust our feet” then we may be sinfully consumed thereby making us no different than the P & P gang who refuse to lean on the Holy Spirit and allow Jesus to tame their predatory spirit to destroy someone.
If P & P don’t think their targeted repetitive rhetoric hasn’t been heard by Dr. Caner and that P & P haven’t realized they have gone too far, then P & P never will, until it’s too late. I need to stay clear of the fallout they will face.
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Mark,
Oh, yes, and I can certainly show examples about how Paul conducted himself when people did not want to hear what Paul had to say.
Acts 19:21 to Acts 20:1
The whole town was in an uproar because Paul was in town. So…
He left. He just simply left. He didn’t say a word to anyone.
He did not “preach the gospel” to them. He left them alone to do as they pleased.
Ed
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there you go
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Julie- I feel bad that this thread got hijacked. If you want to redirect this towards JonnyMac, let me know and I won’t address any further questions/comments and let things lie where they are now. Thanks-
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Dustin,
Hijacked?
This site addresses Spiritual Abuse. While you offer an obvious insight for those that need counseling should seek Christian counselors you monitor a site that will continue to harass a grieving parent thereby making P & P an abusive Social Media Site..
If you don’t think Dr. Caner hasn’t heard or isn’t aware of P & P’s constant targeted repetitive rhetoric directed at him, then the P & P gang are disconnected making it nearly impossible to identify boundaries.
In the meant time I can’t offer any insight to you that would help you recognize that your sight needs to tone it down.
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