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Spiritual Sounding Board – This is our place to gather and share in an open format. Feel free to join in the discussion.
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This is your place to share your church struggles and concerns.
Let’s also use it as a time to encourage one another spiritually.
What have you found spiritually encouraging lately?
Do you have any special Bible verses to share, any YouTube songs that you have found uplifting?
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Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. Ephesians 1:3-10
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Wow that is amazing and truly a blessing to see. God bless you all this Lord’s day.
Thanks for posting this. That hit my heart head on.
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My husband and I have started reading and discussing NC Wright’s work. I am reading Scripture and the Authority of God and he is reading Simply Jesus. What a blessing this scholar is!
We plan to start Paul and the Faithfulness of God soon. Would love to discuss it with other readers. Could we have a read along?
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Hi Marsha,
I’ve seen a few videos of NT Wright and enjoyed them very much. I’d like some feedback. This ongoing Sunday gathering is still new, but overall, it seems to be a mix of whatever anybody wants it to be. So, it could work on these posts, but also making sure people realize that it is open discussion as well. Or, another idea is I can create a page specifically dedicated to the read-along. You would be able to access it in the tabbed section above and participate when you like. The advantage of that idea is everything is more topically organized.
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Thank you for posting that video of Christopher. It made my week!!
What a blessing and encouragement.
I have found reading through Hebrews, and Galatians has helped to remind me of what we have in Christ. Hebrews is a great book to really focus our minds and hearts on Christ as our High Priest and Advocate before our Heavenly Father.
Julie Anne, thank you for this ministry.
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith expressing itself through love.” Gal. 5:6
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Wow – Great video…
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That video “just happened.” I had something else in place and just happened to see that one on the side bar and clicked on it. It brought me to tears so I swapped it out.
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Hi Julie Anne – And -Hi ALL
Happy Sunday – and I do mean happy… 😉
Just hangin out at Barnes & Nobles, drinkin coffee – And…
Turnin over a few tables in “the Abusive Religious System”
I’m in the middle of a debate, on another blog…
About that infamous verse we all love so much – Heb 13:17.
Seems they are NOT happy with the qualifications I have
for determining “who” gets to use this verse… 😉
Am I really allowed to have this much fun… 😉
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I loved the video about Christopher’s life.
In reading through the Gospel of Matthew this morning, I’m amazed how Jesus lifts the broken and abandoned and turns the world’s values on end.
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Christopher is an amazing young man. Watching and listening to him sing after all the adversity he has been through touched my heart strings and brought tears to my eyes. God can truly make beautiful things out of us.
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Amos,
I would be interested in knowing what qualifications you have for determining who gets to use Hebrews 13:17.
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If you do discussions on NT Wright’s work, let know which book will be discussed so I purchase the right one.
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If you have been in an abusive relationship, you will appreciate this. One woman’s act of freedom:
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/164074-mysterious-letter-token-found-airport-tells-womans-story-breaking-chain-abuse/
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“I’m in the middle of a debate, on another blog…
About that infamous verse we all love so much – Heb 13:17.
Seems they are NOT happy with the qualifications I have
for determining “who” gets to use this verse… 😉
Am I really allowed to have this much fun… ”
Amos, I have also had tons of fun with that proof text and the words the “translators” chose to use instead of the same translated words used in other parts of NT. Hmm.
What is interesting about that proof text are other verses where Jesus is talking and teaching the opposite!
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I would be interested in a discussion about NT Wright’s teaching. I have a backlog to read these days but plan on getting to Paul and the Faithfulness of God very soon. Believe it for not an agnostic friend sent it to me a few weeks ago! I am still stunned over that beautiful gesture.
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Lydia,
Thank you for the link to the woman’s letter left in the airport. What a beautiful way to let another know of the abuse she endured and the symbol of the end of that era of her life. I hope it went to someone that it will be a blessing to and encouraging to get out of the fog.
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Brenda, I LOVED the way she did that. Now it is on the internet. I pray more women will see light at the end of the tunnel because she reached out.
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Hi Brenda
Thanks for asking.
And maybe this can help others who have suffered thru this “Abuse.”
I have questioned, and debated, this verse Heb 13:17, often since leaving “The Abusive Religious System” in the early 90’s. Thru much Pain, Tears, and “Spiritual Abuse.” Seems “Pastors who Abuse,” “Pastors addicted to “Exercising Authority,” “Bullies,” really like to quote Heb 13:17, again and again, to be able to “Control and Manipulate” the folks. 😉
1 – The first qualification for me, (and I now have many qualifications.)
For “Who” qualifies to be Obeyed, Submitted to…
Is from Heb 13:17. – “for *they* are keeping watch over your souls.”
If someone is NOT watching for your soul – Do they qualify for Heb 13:17?
NOT anymore – Thank you Jesus…
And, remember, pastor, shepherd, elder, overseer, leader of a “local church,” Is NOT mentioned at ALL in ALL of Heb 13. 😉
Today, I recommend to ALL believers, to keep watch for “They” who really keep watch over YOUR soul. NOT necessarily someone with a “Title.” And, that will take some time to trust anyone, *They,* the “Titles,” or anyone. Because talk is cheap. I’ve been fooled before. 🙂 Jesus warned His Disciples about those “Religious Leaders” who say one thing and DO another.
Mat 23:3 …but do NOT ye after their works: for they say, and DO NOT.
That has been my experience with pastor/leaders, bullies, who like to quote Heb 13:17. *They* say they are keeping watch over MY soul. But, when I questioned, dis-agreed with them, it seems MY soul was NO longer important to them. MY soul was NO longer worth keeping watch over. 😦
What seemed to be important to *They,* the “Titles,” was holding on to, THEIR Power, Profit, Prestige. And NOT much interest in…
*Submitting yourselves* one to another in the fear of God. Eph 5:21 KJV.
NOT many Bullies, who quote Heb 13:17, like this verse either. 😉
Do
If anyone, *They,* the “Titles,” are NOT keeping watch over OUR soul…
WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Called Out Ones, His Disciples, His sons, Have NO requirement, NO responsibility, NO desire, to “Obey and Submit.”
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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It sounds like a separate NT Wright thread would be good.
Paul and the Faithfulness of God is 1800 pages. Should we start off there or do one if his shorter books first, perhaps Simply Jesus or Scripture and the Authority of God? Either way I am excited to discuss ideas with fellow blog posters.
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I think I’d like to do a blog post on oppressed wives. Most likely because of my coverage of trends in the Homeschool Movement and Patriarchy, and also Complementarianism, I get e-mails from wives who are with husbands who act more like bullies than loving husbands. This is a problem that I think the church is ill-equipped to handle. It’s very sad.
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Brenda R
2 – And – Here is a list of 10 qualifcations for those who claim Heb 13:17.
It seems WE, His Sheep, have a responsibility to **know these guys…
1 Thess 5:12 KJV
And we beseech you, brethren, to **know them (**to perceive, notice, discern,)
which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
And since an elder is to be an example to the flock. 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
And, these Bullies claiming Heb 13:17, for themselves, call themselves elders.
Even though. elder, overseer, pastor, is NOT mentioned in ALL of Heb 13.
WE, His Sheep, can discern these guys, seeing how they react to debate…
And asking ourselves. Are these guys, who call themselves elders…
Living Examples of…
1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
2 – Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
4 – Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
5 – Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
6 – By love “Serve one another?” Gal 5:13 KJV
7 – Laying down their lives for the brethren? 1 John 3:16 KJV
8 – NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their glory? Jn 7:18 KJV
9 – NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43. KJV
10 – Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
10 – Humility – a modest, or low opinion of ones own importance.
Do I have to “Submit” to someone who does NOT Submit one to another?
Do I have to “Submit” to someone who is “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles?
NOT any more – thank you Jesus… 🙂
Could you imagine mentioning these verses to some senior pastor today?
And saying to them, “If it’s okay with you? I’d like to get to “Know You” a little better. Before I “Obey and Submit” to you?
As I’m asked to do in 1 Thess 5:12 KJV?
If it’s okay with you? I’d like to see if you are actually “watching over my soul,” in good times and in bad times.
Before I “Obey and Submit” to you?
As it says wanna-be “leaders” are supposed to be doing in Heb 13:17?
That might take some time. I’m NOT sure how long.
I want to see how you react if I ever dis-agree with you. 😉
If it’s okay with you? I’ll also need some time to see if you match up with this list of 10 every-day requirements I have for who I’m to “Obey and Submit” to, Before I “Obey”and “Submit,”to you?
You see, I have found many, who quote Heb 13:17, are busy “lording it over “God’s heritage” and busy “Exercising Authority.” And this should NOT be for one of His Disciples. And, I’ve definitly NOT found many, who quote Heb 13:17, who are clothed with humility, having a modest or low opinion of their own importance. 🙂
You see, God has asked me to “Follow Jesus” and to “Trust Him.”
But I am warned in the Bible, again and again, NOT to “Trust” in man.
Because, if I trust in a “Mere Fallible Human” I will most likely be cursed.
Jer 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man,
and maketh flesh his arm…
Ps 118:8-19
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
Yeah – If you want to have some fun – And over-turn a few tables…
Try talking this way to a few “pastor/elder/leader/overseers” and see what happens. 🙂
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Amos,
I have not personally been involved in a church where leadership had much profit, prestige or power as being a leader in the church. Most had to work to support their families and were not full time pastors. I have had one pastor who was abusive to his children. He was a hell fire and brimstone preacher and he wasn’t around long. He called names of other churches that didn’t have our exact beliefs and fortunately didn’t stick around too awfully long.
Lydia spoke of: proof text and the words the “translators” chose to use instead of the same translated words used in other parts of NT. That could be helpful.
Any leader that quotes any scripture to lord it over the flock needs to go. I often question what is said in a sermon. I do believe leadership does have responsibility for the souls of the flock. Just as teachers will be more harshly judged in James 3:1 they must teach truth and be able to admit if they are proven wrong. Maybe we should be calling preachers, teachers instead. That is what they are really there for. It is still up to us to discern what we are being taught through the word and not taking any man’s word above god’s.
I am so sorry to hear that your soul wasn’t important once you asked questions. That sounds more like a cult than a church. “*Submitting yourselves* one to another in the fear of God. Eph 5:21 KJV.” This is a wonderful scripture. We not only submit ourselves to one another as Christians to uplift one another, but overseers of the church should be submissive and servants of the church. They are not to be “my way or the highway” people, they are to be “Feed my flock” kind of people.
The only one that I am likely to “submit and obey” to any longer is Christ Himself. If I feel with the urging of the Holy Spirit that what is being said on Sunday is direct from God, I will try to apply it to my life, but submitting to false prophecy is unlikely. So in the end of all of my going on, I won’t be one that is disagreeing with you on this.
I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular. Quite true!!
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Julie Anne,
You are correct. The church is ill equipped to handle the topic of oppressed wives or unwilling and see no need. The idea is you’re married and that is that. That way of thinking kept me in bondage for far too long.
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Side note: Today was the “Peaceful Protest” at Mars Hill church in Bellevue, WA. Former members of Mars Hill protested outside the Bellevue campus. I’ve compiled some of the tweets I’ve found here, so you can see: http://t.co/cE3eDBjkSZ
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Amos,
You see, God has asked me to “Follow Jesus” and to “Trust Him.”
Exactly! Following Jesus and trusting Him could mean giving up our lives though. Recently, in sermon, my pastor spoke about 5 ministers in prison in Canada for their beliefs and teachings. That is not too far away from where the US is headed at this moment unless “we” as a nation turn back to God and not some religious cult either. He spoke about how he may be in prison in the future while the congregation is quietly worshipping in house churches. This is something I spoke about with him before he brought it up and was glad to hear him speak of these things.
My pastor may have more book learning than I do, namely seminary, (not that I have much use for most of the teaching in seminaries) and he is not perfect and freely and humbly admits it. I am not likely to blindly follow what he teaches even if he fits all of the qualifications he gives. The elders of the church I attend try to live in a godly, humble way and are all soft spoken and listen closely when others speak to them. One in particular was introduced one day as an elder and his reply was, “That just means I’m old.” When I separated from my X this man went out of his way many times to make sure I was alright and needed anything.
I believe we as the church should be able to ask the questions that you referenced without hesitation. If church leaders balk at that, it is already time to move on to another church. I would not want to be apart of a church which is so large that you don’t know the pastor and he has no idea who I am. The church I currently attend is almost too large. I do not trust in the leaders of the church. My Faith is in Jesus Christ, but I respect the leaders in the church just as I do the other attenders.
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Well, yes, that’s a good point about them watching over our souls. The verse of necessity requires us to know who our leaders are before we can follow and obey them, and not be misled by someone else that claims to be. Jesus did warn us to beware of false prophets and fals Christs.
So since the vers identifies our leaders as those who watch over our souls, anyone who doesn’t is not one of the leaders spoken of.
So I got a little more clarity this morning.
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Peter, in that context the word “leader” seems to have the meaning of “one who has gone before”. As in hardship, example, etc. Someone in the trenches, so to speak.
Earlier in Hebrews they are referred to as Abraham, etc. So there is nothing to really point it to a local church structure. The word “elder” is no where to be found in the context.. Not only that but there is no “obey”. it is more like “let them persuade you” in the context of the persecution that was starting up for them.
Here is a link to a series on this passage that might be helpful:
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2007/02/elders-rulers-or-servants-part-2.html
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JA, Thank you for the connection to the tweets about the Mars Hill Protest. I hope you will have more info about it later. I would love to join in a reading/discussion about one of Wright’s books. I would prefer starting with a shorter one. Today I am thankful to have this place to come to on Sundays! I hope everyone has a good week.
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I’ve added a “SSB Read Along” tab at the top of the screen. I think that will be the best way to keep comments together. Feel free to discuss which book to select. https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/ssb-read-along/
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Lydia, that’s quite right, in keeping with what Paul wrote: follow me, as I follow Christ. And as you say, the word obey is the middle or passive voice of the active persuade. It is the same verb.
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Peter, My question is why did the translators choose “obey” when it was not the best word choice? Even Paul is “persuading” in his letters. But look at Paul’s audience. Pagans who have no experience with the One True God. This was all new to them.
I think it is because most of our modern translations come from older translations and those working within a church/state mentality. They chose the word “obey” because it fit their paradigm even though it does not fit the entire pericope of the Gospels and whatJesus taught. . From the above link:
According to W.E. Vine, the Greek word peitho means “to persuade, to win over, in the Passive and Middle Voices, to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey, is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice. THE OBEDIENCE SUGGESTED IS NOT BY SUBMISSION TO AUTHORITY, BUT RESULTING FROM PERSUASION” (emp. mine. An Expository Dic-tionary of New Testament Words, Vol. 3, p. 124).
The thrust of the word peitho is not one of submission to authority; it is one of listening to someone out of respect and taking their advice. A better translation of peitho in verse 17 is “Listen to,” not “Obey them.”
Peitho is sometimes translated “trust” in the King James Version of the New Testament and would have been an ideal translation in verse 17: ‘Trust them….’ This leaves the reader with a different flavor entirely than does the translation “Obey them…”
Another point is that the writer most likely KNEW the leaders…those who had gone before as in those in the trenches. (the entire book was written because of the persecution heating up and most likely anonymous for that reason)
My point is the translators really took the wrong track on this one. And it has been used as a club ever since. Some translations use “submit to their authority” which is just as bad as the preceeding chapters are all about telling the “Hebrew” believers that Jesus Christ is now the “authority/High Priest” in the New Covenant. That they don’t have a human “high priest”. Kind of mind boggling the translators did not catch the cognitive dissonance they were teaching through bad translation. :o)
It really gets on my nerves when I hear it used as a club to control folks.
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I have just left a church where legalism and ‘the pastor watches for your soul’ and “will give account to God for your soul.” This same pastor molested me when I was in my 20’s and I continued there because I was so brainwashed that if I left I would lose my soul. I am now 55 years old! So, I won’t ever be under subjection to a man.
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The video was amazing and once again reminds me that each life is such a gift. The love the Aunt had to seek him out and then adopt him speaks to me of the love God has for me. He sought me out and then adopted me when I was still lost in sin. He rejoices over me and delight in my praise.
I have much to praise Him for this week. God has once again reminded me that I should trust and not fear. He used the body of Christ that gathers on SSB to meet some critical needs in our family. I praise Him and thank the love of God that reached out and reminded me that people of the Lord should never magnify their problems, but should magnify their Lord. Solo Deo Gloria
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Peter Attwood,
In regards to Hebrews 13:7, I see it as “elders”. I’ve said it several times before, and I will say it again.
When I was a kid, the saying was, “Respect your elders”. This was not a religious saying. An elder is someone older than you. It is NOT, I repeat NOT a leader, or anyone that holds a position of authority. Should I repeat that again? NOT A LEADER. NOT ANYONE WHO IS IN ANY POSITION OF AUTHORITY.
An elder is simply someone who is older.
Now, the next question is this: WHY should we respect someone who is older?
The answer to that is a simple one: Because that older one has LIVED LIFE. That in and of itself shows that this person has WISDOM.
Did you know that it is simple and easy to respect a wise person?
You see, some take Hebrews 13:7 as a mandate, as a commandment, as if someone is ordering you to do this or do that, and you must be “obedient”. I hate the reform use of that word. OBEDIENT is a famous word used to beat down people with.
In the NT we are to be obedient to faith. The law of faith is what we are to be obedient to, and there is ONLY ONE commandment under that law, and that commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself.
So, let’s set aside that word “obedient” for a moment, since we are to be obedient to love.
Respect your elders, which in essence means to respect those who are wise. An elder in a church is supposed to be…SUPPOSED TO BE, spiritually wise, and such a wise person has patience towards people, not dominance. They have love for people, not indignation. They are servants, not bosses, not leaders. They are simply, older, which means wise.
I’m not happy with the reformation use of Hebrews 13:7, because their use of Hebrews 13:7 puts people into bondage, and Jesus isn’t about bondage.
We need to get rid of the notion of “LEADERS” in all church’s. They are not leaders. They serve us, we don’t serve them. Let’s be clear.
I think that it is high time that A. Amos Love be heard, as he represents an elder’s heart. He is wise. Spiritually wise.
Ed
________________________________
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Thank you for sharing chapmaned 24- that is beautiful
They are servants to the body – a great calling and responsibility from god
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A.Amos Love,
I appreciate that list of scriptures, thanks! My one question is with your reference to the word ‘know’ in 1 Thess 5:12 KJV (And we beseech you, brethren, to **know them (**to perceive, notice, discern,) which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
Many other translations use words like honor or respect there, instead of know. Any insight into the original languages?
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Rose,
Welcome to SSB. I don’t know if I will ever be able to not sigh heavily when reading a comment like yours. I’m so sorry that you were hurt by your pastor. I’m so glad you have finally left that hell hole. You have come to a place that is warm and friendly to people who have been hurt in church. Thank you for sharing.
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Deb – Your comment made me smile. Thank you for the update. Jehovah Jireh – our provider 🙂
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Rose,
This person, I won’t call him a pastor “will give account”, if it is for your soul–it will be for how badly he damaged you. He will be giving another account as well: Unrepentant immorality. The church cannot give you salvation or keep your soul. The only one who can give you life is Jesus. This man thought himself higher than God and used his position to assault you. He should be in jail, not in the pulpit. I will pray for you right now. ((((((Hug))))))
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Brenda R – I’d like to know who these Canadian ministers are, who are in jail ‘for their beliefs and teachings’ ?? Since I live here and have never heard of them, I’d be interested in more info. Thanks!
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Carmen, I will have to get the article from my pastor. He spoke about it about 6 weeks or so ago.
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I’d appreciate you doing that, Brenda because the usual reason to put people in jail is because they committed a CRIME – just like in USA. Thanks again.
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Carmen, I understand that and have already sent him an email. He does use a lot of things from Christianity Today, but I am not swearing to that. I am keeping your post in my email so I can respond to you once I get an answer. It was a blanket statement but, I do know that he never mentioned any specific names of the people involved. There have been many protestors in the US that found themselves in jail–which as far as I am concerned is not a crime and is not suppose to be under our laws. There are also those who are falsely accused who find themselves behind bars until they prove their innocense. I don’t remember specifics. If I could remember which sermon it was I would replay it on line and send you the link, but I don’t remember what date it was.
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Carmen, This is one article that I found. He was not jailed but told to leave because he was preaching the gospel and told he was preaching hate. I don’t agree.
http://christiannews.net/2012/07/10/intolerant-police-shut-down-canadian-preacher-for-sharing-gospel-with-homosexuals/
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L.J.
You ask about 1 Thess 5:12 @ AUGUST 3, 2014 @ 10:16 PM
1 Thess 5:12 KJV
And we beseech you, brethren, to **know them (**perceive, notice, discern,)
which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
You ask…
“Many other translations use words like *honor or respect* there,
instead of **know. Any insight into the original languages?
I have noticed that difference also. Some use *honor or respec* – BUT…
I do like the KJV more when dealing with Bullies who quote Heb 13:17.. 😉
The KJV **Know – in the Strongs Concordance is #1492 – is eido
It is translated in the KJV – know 281, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 17, look 6, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 667
Strongs definition is – to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perf. only) to know:– be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot.
In Thayers Greek Lexicon – #1492 – eido means…
1) to see. 1a) to perceive with the eyes. 1b) to perceive by any of the senses.
1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
Here are a few versions that use **know..
ASV – But we beseech you, brethren, to** know them that labor among you,
Dby – But we beg you, brethren, to **know those who labour among you,
DRV – And we beseech you, brethren, to **know them
ED – We entreat but you, brethren, to **know those
GLT – But, brothers, we entreat you to **know those
MKJV – And, brothers, we beseech you to **know those
YLT – And we ask you, brethren, to **know those
——-
And, if *honor or respect* is a more betterer translation…
Are WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Disciples, warned about…
False Apostles, Many False Prophets, False Teachers, False Christs…
So, WE, His Sheep, will be wary of anyone claiming superiority, “Titles.”
And WE, His Bride, are to **know them (**perceive, notice, discern,)
Before WE, His Kings and Priests, His Ambassadors, His Called Out Ones…
Show *honor or respect* to anyone??? 😉
Are WE, His Servants, His sons, required to *honor or respect* anyone…
Just because they tell us to, command us to, *honor or respect* them…
NOT any more – Thank You Jesus. 😉
I’m-a-thinkin, WE, His Kids still better **know them. Up close and personal.
I’m-a-thinkin, *honor or respect* has to be earned – NOT given… 😉
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Carmen,
I’ve heard the same…on the news. I am an avid Fox News Watcher, and Christianity is discussed a lot on Fox. On the other news networks, Christianity is mocked, and ridiculed. But Fox takes Christianity serious. Oh, and many people mock and ridicule Fox, and anyone who claims to watch Fox.
http://christiannews.net/2013/02/28/canadian-supreme-court-rules-biblical-speech-opposing-homosexual-behavior-is-a-hate-crime/
Part of the article states:
” the court upheld the conviction of activist William Whatcott, who found himself in hot water after distributing flyers regarding the Bible’s prohibitions against homosexuality throughout the Saskatoon and Regina neighborhoods in 2001 and 2002.”
Ed
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Lydia,
If you see this, is there anything you could, and would be willing, to share about a Dr. Donald Whitney. A former minister of mine, to whom I am actually deeply indebted, recommends that I listen to a couple of Dr. Whitney’s sermons. My former minister describes Dr. Whitney as “the professor of biblical spirituality at my alma mater the Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville , Kentucky.”
Should I be as skeptical as I am?
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“I’d appreciate you doing that, Brenda because the usual reason to put people in jail is because they committed a CRIME – just like in USA. Thanks again.”
Carmen, I understand your position. I think the problem is the law itself. While it might not be enforced it is still there and could be. Cheryl Schatz has a ministry to the cults like JW and Mormons. When she moved to Canada they took away her non profit status because it is “hate” to call them cults and try to convince them of their cultish status. She might agree with other non profits positions but unless the government decides it is a violation with hate speech, she has to live with them getting non profit status.
So while not in jail — it is still a disastrous consequence for her ministry trying to help folks out of cults. And it is a lack of freedom of speech if enforced in other arenas.
Something to think about. I am admittedly a Libertarian who thinks the less government the better. And I am big on free speech. And a bit perturbed that government officials are paid well themselves to curtail such individual rights.
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Gary, Does this answer your question?
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/teachers/donald-whitney/
I don’t know how long ago you knew him but I have witnessed some of the same type of people become enamored with certain movements as a career move. We often fool ourselves that way. And even then, once entrenched we think we can change things from inside. So who knows. But TableTalk? Oh my.
From my experience with the TableTalk crowd, you don’t get in there by being non Calvinist unless there is something big in it for Sproul, financially.
Even Rick Warren was spouting Calvinism a few years back at the Desiring God conferences as key note speaker. It is where the action is now if ministry is your career and income source. That is always subject to change with the wind, too. Who knows, it might be Pelagianism next. But I do see the Ana Baptist movement making headway, too.
I have heard good things about Whitney as a person. Don’t know him at all, though.
Just give me Jesus, please. :o)
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Well, folks. In Canada the majority of people feel that railing against LGTPQ people – particularly if you think you have divine support – is hate speech. That’s why the laws are in place – I agree with them. I don’t know anything about this Cheryl Schatz, I’ll have to look her up. I would certainly agree that she is trying to do valuable work.
And Faux News, Ed? Please. (vigorous shaking of head)
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” the court upheld the conviction of activist William Whatcott, who found himself in hot water after distributing flyers regarding the Bible’s prohibitions against homosexuality throughout the Saskatoon and Regina neighborhoods in 2001 and 2002.”
You know, I might not agree totally with his position or his method but this sort of thing scares me to death. I see it coming here…fast. Remember, Thomas Paine was considered someone who wrote “hate speech” at one time. He was a “nobody” and did not deserve to have his opinion.
Freedom of speech for even the jerks, wackos and revolutionaries. We are adults and can discuss, think, make decisions. Why not teach children to think for themselves instead of socializing them on what to think like so many schools are doing? Government sanctioned speech is deadly to freedom.
.
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“Well, folks. In Canada the majority of people feel that railing against LGTPQ people – particularly if you think you have divine support – is hate speech. That’s why the laws are in place – I agree with them. I don’t know anything about this Cheryl Schatz, I’ll have to look her up. I would certainly agree that she is trying to do valuable work. ”
That is the whole point about “hate” speech. What is “hate” to one person like a Mormon is “love” to another person who thinks it is a cult. Going down that road of restricting speech is deadly to freedom. There will always be jerks to contend with.
I think there is more of a precedent for restricted speech in Canada than here because it is a big part of our framing. But I see it coming. There are many on the left who would love to decide what people can say or not. There is already so much restriction within certain government run areas like schools, etc, it is stifling.
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Lydia
Agree with you questioning “Peitho” as obey @ AUGUST 3, 2014 @ 7:05 PM.
I’m gonna save this… 😉
———–
“According to W.E. Vine, the Greek word peitho means “to persuade, to win over, in the Passive and Middle Voices, to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey, is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice. THE OBEDIENCE SUGGESTED IS NOT BY SUBMISSION TO AUTHORITY, BUT RESULTING FROM PERSUASION” (emp. mine. An Expository Dic-tionary of New Testament Words, Vol. 3, p. 124).
The thrust of the word peitho is not one of submission to authority; it is one of listening to someone out of respect and taking their advice. A better translation of peitho in verse 17 is “Listen to,” not “Obey them.”
Peitho is sometimes translated “trust” in the King James Version.”
———–
Obey – in Strongs is #3982 peitho. and is translated in the KJV as…
persuade 22, trust 8, obey 7, have confidence 6, believe 3, be confident 2,
Hmmm? “peitho?” persuade? trust? have confidence? believe?
And “peitho” is the root word for “faith” “pistis.”
Maybe that word “obey” “peitho” , is very different
from how we understand “obey” today. Yes?
The very next verse, Heb 13:18, uses #3982 peitho also.
Only this time it is NOT obey. The word is TRUST.
Heb 13:18
Pray for us: for we *TRUST* we have a good conscience,
in all things willing to live honestly.
Paul uses #3982 peitho, here in, Gal 5:10.
I have *confidence* in you through the Lord.
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Here is an interesting read. A word study for “peitho” from Rick Saenz.
He lists all the scriptures using “pietho.” “Obey” or “be persuaded by”
http://drycreekchronicles.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/word-study-peitho/
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I stopped reading Fox News because of all the trash sex articles on the front page. Conservative? Hardly. Look today in the sidebar and at the bottom. http://www.foxnews.com I just spent a minute or so copying these article titles (and pics with cleavage, etc)
Rimes puts $$ where bikini is
Anna: I’m still bisexual
FX pushes boundaries
SEE IT: Kim Kardashian Uploads Topless Pic for Friend’s B-Day
10 Strange Celebrity Hookups You Never Knew About
SEE IT: Jessica Alba Wears a Bikini, Little Else in Magazine Shoot
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Your comment, “Why not teach children to think for themselves instead of socializing them on what to think like so many schools are doing”? has me baffled. As a high school teacher, you must realize that THAT is the very thing we all strive for – that’s why we choose curriculum from a variety of sources, that’s why students are encouraged to read from a variety of genres, authors, etc. . . .I could go on. I don’t know ANY teacher who doesn’t build in as much information as possible to compliment the curriculum they follow. I am a substitute teacher and end up in many different subject areas, filling in for the day(s). That’s one of the things I love about my job – I learn something new every day. I am consistently amazed at the research, variety of text, teaching methods, up-to-date articles that teachers draw on, and the care taken and sheer amount of work done by educated individuals with this in mind – encouraging students to think for themselves.
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Thank you, JA, for endorsing my opinion. I think that’s what’s going on in America today – there are many fundamentalists who actually BELIEVE everything they hear on Faux News and run with it. Speaking of thinking for oneself. . . sheesh!
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Carmen,
Please!!! The only ones who make fun of Fox are the ones who never watch it.
In addition, I do not find hate speech in quoting the Bible. Any of the Bible.
But you used a key word, and that is railing. We are not to rail against anyone for any reason.
Quoting scripture is not railing. Remember the flak that the Duck Dynasty guy got into? The lbgabcdefg people called it hate. The rest of America disagreed. The lbgabddefg people wanted Duck Dynasty taken off the air. A&E took it off. But America said otherwise, and A&E had to eat crow.
Quoting the Bible is known as hate speech? Do you know what is going on in Iraq to Christians? Rape, murder, etc. of Christians. They are being forced out of their homes, and demanded that they convert to Islam or be killed, beheaded, etc.
Fox News reports these things. The other news networks could care less to what happens to Christians.
In my opinion, ONE of the many reasons that I believe that Christianity is the ONLY true religion (which is birthed from Judaism, and is an extension of Judaism, not a replacement of), is because people see the Bible as hate speech.
But Jesus said to not marvel, because the world hates us because it hated him FIRST.
So, put us in jail for speaking against homosexuality. It’s a crime. We will do the time.
Ed
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Seriously – – if it’s conservative, then why is it that today of all days when it was mentioned here, I quickly found all of that junk? It is an every day occurrence because I checked it out to be sure. It’s easy to do – just look. Fox News is just as raunchy as every other news organization, using sex to build numbers. Christians like sex, too. But to say conservative values?? Nope, not buying it.
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Julie Anne,
I watch Fox News for the News, not entertainment. Foxnews.com is different than what I watch on Fox News.
Megan Kelly, Sean Hannity, Bill Oreily, Greta Vansestran, Charles Krouthammer, etc.
I could care less about JZ and Beyonce, etc.
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No, Ed, I would make fun of Fox and I’ve read it. Dude, do you have a mental block with my comments? Are you filtering them? LOL “lalalala – not looking at JA’s comments as she disses on my baby, Fox news” 🙂
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Yea, but it’s all a part of Fox News, is it not?
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Ed, you are parroting the fundagelical line here. For starters, why do fundagelicals pick homosexuality from all the other sins spoken of in the bible? Why is it that you aren’t advocating for disobedient children to be stoned to death? I think it’s even in the same sentence isn’t it? ( I don’t read the 2000-yr-old ancient mythological text, but I’ve seen that scripture quoted. And furthermore, as I’ve said before – if that book is telling you to hate ANYONE, quit reading it. I mean that sincerely.)
Ed, as you’ve repeatedly told us, that book is the ONLY ONE YOU READ. If I want to have a stimulating conversation, I’ll choose someone who reads a variety of text/authors. Thanks just the same.
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I don’t believe it is hate to speak truth about Jesus to anyone regardless of their chosen sexuality, but many times stones are thrown at the Christian who speaks their beliefs. I know many LGBT people. They don’t talk about their sex life and I don’t speak about mine. If I am asked if I think their life style is wrong, I would have to say yes. If not asked, I will not bring it up. Because someone has a thought does not mean we should act on it. I would have liked to have hit my ex-husband upside the head with a frying pan on occassions. I didn’t do it and prayed that God would take such thoughts from me. Others may want to kill people for sport. I don’t think that is a good idea either.
The theory that most Canadians agree with the laws that have been passed regarding same sex marriage and probably from the same polsters that take them in the US. I would challenge both countries to have an actual vote of the people and see where they stand. In the state where I live the people voted and same sex marriage was voted down by a majority. It is now being taken to court where the result could be 1 judge deciding that the rest of us are all wrong. I believe the people who founded this country would be very displeased at the way the constitution is being twisted these days, similarly to the Bible.
I am indifferent to all news stations. They are all about ratings and so much is fabricated to their own views and what they want people to think. I would like the news to be truthful and not geared toward getting more people to watch their station.
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Ed,
Well said!!
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Carmen,
We don’t hate. That is the issue. We are accused of hate, falsely.
Now, you ask about stoning? NT is different than OT. The Law of Moses does not apply to Christians.
Sin is “biblically” defined as “transgression of the law”. That is the law of Moses. When we “repent”, that means that we do not sin anymore. That does not mean that we continue in the lifestyle that we once were in.
And if we do, then we are not Christians.
In regards to all other sins, the Bible states, “let him who stole, steal no more”.
Jesus told the adultery woman to “sin no more”. Not to carry on.
Adultery was a sin back then. Still is today. But people do it all the time without a conscience. Some are into threesomes, foursomes and more. If we call it adultery, or fornication, we are accused of hate.
We don’t advocate that people be stoned to death, because we are advocating Jesus who was punished in our place. Those who reject that atonement will be punished for their own sins. That applies to all sins, including homosexuality. Accept Jesus, avoid punishment. Reject Jesus, suffer the consequences of breaking his rules. That includes homosexuality. Thumb your nose at God by saying stuff like mythology book, and you are in danger of something that we don’t want you go through. I’m sorry that you call that hate.
Some of us do not want our children influenced by that lifestyle. And that lifestyle is permeating our culture, being thrown in our faces. We see that as debauchery, not as wholesome life.
And we do discuss other sins. Lying, stealing, obey your parents, adultery, etc. There are 613 laws.
Our job is to “spread the good news”, but it can’t be good news without first telling of the bad news. The law is our school master that brings us to Christ. It tells us what God expects of us, for HE is Holy.
If we are obeying God by his telling us to spread the gospel to every creature beginning at Jerusalem, how is that hate?
Ed
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Well, Brenda. We have many philosophical differences. Another major difference that I can see is this – I WOULD have hit your husband up-side the head with a frying pan. I’m that kind of girl.
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Julie Anne,
The regular Fox channel is also owned by the same people. But the cable tv fox news has nothing to do with glorifying the entertainment crowd. Fox News is political, not entertainment. Fox channel is entertainment. Foxnews.com is both entertainment and political. The political portion is conservative, both in politics and Christianity.
There is also the Fox Movie Channel, as well.
Ed
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Ed, again, we have many philosophical differences but I know you (and Brenda) are good people – same as me.
If your invisible, infallible, unprovable entity is threatening me with a lifetime of slow-roasting (after death, mind you) for not believing in s/he/it, that might not be hate.
It sure as hell isn’t love either.
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Ed –
“Our job is to “spread the good news”, but it can’t be good news without first telling of the bad news. The law is our school master that brings us to Christ. It tells us what God expects of us, for HE is Holy.”
Can you point me to your reason for stating that, “it can’t be good news without first telling of the bad news?” Can you give some examples of Jesus doing this with the common people he interacted with (not the Pharisees).
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I’m talking about the Fox news link I posted above, Ed. It says, “Fox News” in the link, not Fox Entertainment, yet all the sex stuff is prevalent.
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Bridget,
You must first know what sin is before you can repent from sin. That means that you must know what the law states about sin. That is the bad news. The book of Galatians discusses that the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The law must be preached first, in order to know what sin is.
Jesus told his disciples to NOT go to the Gentiles when he sent them out. He said that he did not come but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Those lost sheep of the House of Israel were already followers of God, under the Law of Moses. There is NO MERCY under the law of Moses.
The law of sin and death is the law of Moses. That is the bad news. The good news is that Jesus paid the price for our sins. That means that we don’t pay the price for our sins. That is good news. The bad news is that we pay the price for our own sins.
Let me weigh the options…Me pay price, or Jesus pay price?
Ed
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Ed,
Amen. I have a daughter, age 27, who refers to the Bible as a story book. I pray for her every single day. The further she gets in with those who are leading a lifestyle that she was no raised in the more I see her slipping away. I would rather it be me to pay the price for her rebellion than her.
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Julie Anne,
I watch Fox News. I know. There is a HUGE difference between watching Fox News on TV, and Fox News that you are referencing. Sex is NOT prevalent on Fox News TV.
Ed
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Carmen,
We go back a bit. You know that I don’t mean any ill will between us. But I do take a stand. I happen to believe in that invisible stuff that you make fun of.
By the way, even non-Christians believe in angels/ghosts. Those are invisible.
Ed
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Brenda,
I know what you mean. My own daughter lashed out at me after I emailed her a Ben Stein (Who played the teacher in Ferris Bueller’s Day Off stating, Bueller, Bueller, Bueller), who discussed the nature of our country with people who disregard God. My daughter told me that if she wanted to know about God that she would go to church. A few months later, her friends began dying on her from drug overdoses. And on her facebook she is reaching out to a god that she doesn’t even believe in, but yet, she talks to this dead guy on his created FB support page, somehow believing that he is looking down watching over her. Very strange to say the least. But I pray for her all the time.
Ed
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Ed, if I come off as making fun, that is not what I intend.
I have serious concerns about what evangelical christianity is doing in your country – I see it as a very destructive social force (even though it’s a minority) . That’s why I must respond to some of the comments – I just don’t like to see people following blindly, without giving religion some scrutiny.
Please know that I respect you as an individual, as I respect all who comment on here. If anything, I think we have far more in common than we do in differences and we’ve got to work together to create a safe and secure environment for everyone. This ‘us’ (fundagelicals) and ‘them’ (everyone else), tribal mentality has got to be broken. Can you see what I’m trying to say?
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You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. James 2:19
What I don’t get is why people believe in angels, ghosts and demons, but do not believe in God. Where did all of these other beings come from? Who was suppose to have created them? They aren’t visible either, but people believe they exist.
God is like the wind. You can’t see it, but you can feel it and see its affects.
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Ed,
I loved “Ben Stein’s Money”. There weren’t too many who could beat the guy.
I will keep your daughter in my prayers. My daughter turns off my Christian radio or cd’s when she gets in my car. I gave her a new Bible a couple of years ago, as I did all of my children. It seems to have disappeared from her apartment. Even though she dates men, most of her friends are gay males. She goes to church with me when she is in town, but always has something critical to say once we leave. I continue to email her whatever I can, praying the Holy Spirit will get ahold of her heart.
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Carmen,
Yes, I do get you. I have used a standard, so I know that I, myself, do not believe in Christianity blindly. However, we can both agree that science will never ever be able to prove that a god or gods or God exists. I don’t base my belief on what science will never prove.
There is something that is instilled in my soul that states that there is more to my existence than just this life.
I look at Israel. I look at the Jews. The Jews and Christianity is the MOST hated group of people on the planet. That hatred to Jews and Christians is ONE of many reasons that I believe that God exists.
I see what the Bible states about Abraham’s other offspring, Ishmael, and the “biblical” definition of “Ismael”. I also look at Hebrew words with a fine tooth comb.
I also see stories in the Torah and The Prophets, and the Psalms that I cannot dismiss.
Every story is NOT about the story being presented. Every story is about Jesus.
The story of Joseph and his brothers for example, is about Jesus and the Jews.
The story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac is about Jesus being sacrificed by his father.
Noah being in the belly of the whale for 3 days and 3 nights is about Jesus being in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
It all equates to Jesus.
Next, I cannot dismiss prophecy. Israel actually exists. Archeology actually confirms things discussed in the Bible that some dismissed before 1948. Recently ISSA demolished the tomb of Jonah…in Nineveh, Iraq.
Oh, and that was a News Story of Fox News, by the way.
No, I don’t believe in something blindly.
Abraham had two sons. Ishmael, and Isaac, that are at the heart of the belief. Arabs vs. Jews. Israel is hated by it’s neighbors, just for existing. It really has nothing to do with the land, but then again, God promised that land to the Jews via Abraham, hence circumcision.
There are some of the reasons that I believe in that invisible entity!! I cannot dismiss any of it. I could care less what science has to say about it.
Ed
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Brenda,
Thank you so much, and I will keep your daughter in my prayers, too.
Ed
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Ed,
I was with you 100% until you got to: “Noah being in the belly of the whale for 3 days and 3 nights.” I’m thinking you meant Jonah.
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Lydia, Brenda and anyone else who wants to do a read along of NT Wright’s work, please pop over to the new Read Along page and let me know which book you think we should start with. Thanks! https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/ssb-read-along/
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I appreciate the respectful debating, folks. Thank you!
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Carmen,
Ed, again, we have many philosophical differences but I know you (and Brenda) are good people – same as me.
If your invisible, infallible, unprovable entity is threatening me with a lifetime of slow-roasting (after death, mind you) for not believing in s/he/it, that might not be hate.
Being a good person will not impress God. Works are the fruit of salvation, but it is not what gives us everlasting life with Him. He loves us, but He doesn’t need us to accomplish anything. He wants to love and trust Him, but He gives us free will. We can repent and believe in the gift that He has given us through His Son Jesus Christ, or He has said from the beginning that the wages of sin is death. If we choose Him now, we will live with Him for eternity; if we seperate ourselves from Him now, we will seperate ourselves from Him forever. It is our choice. The body may die and go back to dust, but the soul live on forever.
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Brenda,
Ooops…yes I meant Jonah. Noah, Jonah…they both had something to do with water…lol
Ed
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Brenda, I know you really believe all that. Good on you, really. I JUST DON’T. I think we get one life – this one. You missed the rest of my quote. I said, (about threatening people with everlasting torment for not believing in him) “It sure as hell is not love, either.” Do you really believe that’s a loving ‘contract’??
All I can do is be nice to others around me and do the best I can. I don’t need an invisible entity to do that. As the ministers have always said (that I’ve been exposed to), “You shouldn’t have to scare people into doing good”. That just doesn’t work for me. It’s not the best way to think about people.
All the “I’m going to heaven and you’re going to hell”‘s aren’t going to work with me. Sorry – the fiery furnace just doesn’t exist, as much as you’d like for it to. Like every other living thing on the planet, I will die. That’s it.
The thing is, what goes on in your imagination, I have absolutely no problem with. You’re certainly entitled to conjure up anything you like. However, when people start pointing fingers at other people’s choices, start carping about imagined ‘evils’, and emotionally blackmail them with threats of hell and damnation, – all based on what’s in their imagination and a mythological book from the Bronze Age — that (to me) seems to be a travesty.
Of course, this is all my opinion and, as everyone knows, we all are entitled to that, too. 🙂
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“Ed, you are parroting the fundagelical line here. For starters, why do fundagelicals pick homosexuality from all the other sins spoken of in the bible? Why is it that you aren’t advocating for disobedient children to be stoned to death? I think it’s even in the same sentence isn’t it? ( I don’t read the 2000-yr-old ancient mythological text, but I’ve seen that scripture quoted. And furthermore, as I’ve said before – if that book is telling you to hate ANYONE, quit reading it. I mean that sincerely.)”
But Carmen, if we are honest you are doing what you say Ed is doing. You are saying he is not allowed to express his opinion about what is sin and if he does it is hateful. You don’t have to agree so why pass laws shutting down dissent on the issue? That is not “progressive”. It is regressive and pretty soon there will be laws shutting you down on an issue you agree with. it is a slippery slope.
That movement is making it “hate speech” to disagree with them. The worst part of it is they are claiming civil rights violations same as those who were oppressed by the color of their skin.
That movement had no rich lobbying organization. The Homosexual lobby in America is rich and well connected. There are many homosexuals and pro homosexual lobbying within the top 1% of income earners. They have Hollywood, political arena and big business in their pocket. Yet, they often go after the little guy with few resources like the baker who was a jerk with no rights on who he could serve in a private business. They often use nefarious tactics to get sponsors for their events and even city councils to grant them special privileges for their events that others cannot get. How? No one wants to be accused of being “hateful”. Organizations and communities do not want to be accused of being anti gay.
With all that said, I do not see how America cannot make same sex marriage legal as a “civil right”. Now when that starts encroaching on what Ed can say if he disagrees then that is Totalitarianism. George Orwell comes to mind.
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Ed,
Noah, Jonah…they both had something to do with water…
Valid point. lol I thought you were giving a pop quiz in Bible knowledge.
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“I have serious concerns about what evangelical christianity is doing in your country – I see it as a very destructive social force (even though it’s a minority) . That’s why I must respond to some of the comments – I just don’t like to see people following blindly, without giving religion some scrutiny. ”
I am very concerned about what both the left and right are doing in this country. Both use the same methods with different issues. They are more alike than different if we strip away the issues and focus on methods. Censoring, groupthink, accusations, etc. I also hate to see people follow anything blindly whether a political rock star, a political party, a religious guru or whatever. We are ceasing to be individuals and instead blindly align ourselves with movements, groups, right, left, etc. We are ceasing to think and discuss issues alone- focused on positive outcomes. We focus on intentions of programs or groups and not the results. Both sides do it. And it is leading us to not only Oligarchy at church but Totalitarianism in government.
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About Fox news, CNN or MSNBC. I am old enough to remember when the news was very controlled for us. The news you were fed went through a news editor filter of your daily paper, the national news programs (only 3 or 4) and local stations.
I am thrilled we have so many resources now. And yes, we have to cut through a lot of junk but I would have it no other way. Access to information is a good thing. It is up to us to be adults and check many sources and be informed. I hate the thought of some having power over what we can be informed about. Competition is good.
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Carmen,
Please don’t take this as an insult, or the wrong way, but I just have a curious question.
What turns you off about existence beyond this life? I’m sure that there is more to the story of a reason than just simply “I JUST DON’T”.
If you don’t want to answer, that’s ok. I am just curious.
Ed
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Carmen, I didn’t intentionally leave out the rest of what you said, but believe I answered the question or so I thought. I believe we have a loving God who wants us all to be His kids, but He also sits in judgement of what’s in our hearts and is righteously jealous. He has given you the choice to believe or not. I would never tell anyone what is in their heart. God is the judge, not me. I hope you don’t mind if I pray for you. I would not be obeying my Savior’s commands if I did not tell others about Him. He has made a difference in my life and changes the lives of others.
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Ed, it just doesn’t make any kind of sense to me intellectually – I think I am just too pragmatic!
Brenda, as Christopher Hitchens said, “You pray for me – I’ll THINK for you!” 🙂
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Carmen, Just so you know, my relationships with people do not hinge on whether they are believers or not. And if they aren’t, I hope that they see my fairness, justice and goodness toward them. I do love a good debate but not about belief/unbelief. I simply believe. I cannot credit my faith with anything else than a simple: I chose to believe and be committed to that course. I do not see Faith as certainty about anything specific yet I believe Jesus Christ was/is God resurrected. I do see it as a commitment, though and that it must inform my actions.
I think we could be much more tolerant toward unbelievers. I don’t debate on whether God exists because it is too personal and often a dead end. Most folks in America have heard about Jesus but rarely see Him in action from those who claim Him. In fact, I am done with defending the concept of church at all. I simply agree with folks who say it is hypocritical because it often is. The church is the worst for making excuses for believers and its gurus. I just quietly and lovingly suggest Jesus is not to blame because people have a choice how they live and behave toward others. And they have a choice in how they represent their belief in Jesus Christ.
I think many unbelievers have a right to think: Save me from your followers, Jesus! :o)
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Carmen,
It makes perfect sense to me intellectually. I can’t wrap my head around your intellect vs. mine. It still sounds to me that there is more to it than just that. There has got to be an explanation that goes further. I gave my intellect, in writing above, and it was way more than just a catch phrase. I cannot dismiss the “evidence” that I laid out. I can’t wrap my head around the dismissal of “that” evidence.
Also, I got what you sent. Thanks. But there is a word that is of utmost importance in that article. The word is “IF”, as in IF atheists are wrong, they will apologize, after all we all make mistakes.
I’m sure that you know that the word “if” would indicate agnostic, not atheist, right?
Ed
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I strongly recommend the movie “God’s Not Dead” for anyone who hasn’t seen it. It’s based on the Newsboys Video of the same title:
Ed
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Whether God exists, becoming a Christian is such a personal thing. When I went through the 7.9 earthquake and saw the most destruction I’ve ever witnessed in the Philippines, I cried out to God for help. When I realized my daughter (Hannah) had fallen off a 25-foot cliff, I cried out to God. When I couldn’t pray, I saw an orchestration of events that would have seemed impossible – – all signs again led to God. These types of things have always proven to me in a personal way that God exists, that He cares for me and even my simple cares. I used to go to garage sales each week and say a prayer with my list items. Nearly every time, I found what was on the list. My faith journey has been very difficult, but when push comes to shove, I cannot deny the real presence of God I have felt when I have been at my very worst. I’m so grateful for that.
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I know without a doubt God exists and is very real. I am living proof. I’m a walking, living, breathing miracle and proof of His existence. I’m a living miscarriage, born months early via c-section, without a placenta. I was placed aside so the team of doctors could work on my mom, assuming I was already dead. She was given a dozen transfusions and much later, the the doctor looked out of the corner of his eye and saw movement coming from me. He then quickly ordered an incubator for me and gave me a half dozen transfusions. Too much time had elapsed without proper oxygen to my brain. He said I would not survive the night. I did survive, but was not expected to live long, and was supposed to be profoundly mentally and physically handicapped if I did survive. Then they said I would not live to see the age of 2, then 5, then 10, etc.
I became an athlete and graduated college with two bachelor degrees and have half of a masters degree.
Several times I attempted to end my life and was very close to succeeding. He refused to let me go. He has other plans for me and won’t let me go until then.
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Amen, Wftt2! Beautiful.
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Wow, JA, God never ceases to amaze me. At a time, when you could have given up God revealed Himself. He is so good.
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WftT2, You are a living miracle!! With God all things are possible. I’m glad you are here and able to tell your story.
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