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Spiritual Sounding Board – This is our place to gather and share in an open format. Feel free to join in the discussion.
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This is your place to share your church struggles and concerns.
Let’s also use it as a time to encourage one another spiritually.
What have you found spiritually encouraging lately?
Do you have any special Bible verses to share, any YouTube songs that you have found uplifting?
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I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:4-9
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Photo credit: Hannah Smith
Spiritual Sounding Board 
What a fine start to Sunday morning. This short video pulled at my heart strings and my tear ducts. You can seethe Lord’s every move. His plan is exposed. Giving freely is beautiful. God gave the most beautiful gift of all, His only Son. I am ready to worship!!
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This is a comment that I left over at RBF. I am leaving it here today, as an encouragement to all victims of abuse, to know that the reading of these passages in 1 Peter 3 have been long enough wrongfully interpreted and shoved down the throats of victims of abuse. They have been used to force women to stay in abusive marriages, by saying that we are called to suffer in marriage with an unbelieving abusive spouse. Someone asked the question about these verses, and why we cannot just admit that we are called to suffer, as Christ did, so I shared what I have studied and learned about these passages. I hope this brings hope and freedom to all who have been re-victimized by the misuse of these passages in God’s Word. So, any who have been harmed by this wrong interpretation, today is a day of freedom for you. Go and enjoy the Lord Who loves you so much.
Jesus’ response when being persecuted by Pharisees: Matthew 23
Jesus warning us of their leaven: Matthew 16
Jesus telling us not to argue with them or it would affect our faith: Mark 9
Jesus told us our persecution would come from within the Church, even putting the true Christians out. He said that these arrogant leaders would do these things, because they neither knew Him nor the Father. John 16
Jesus’ response to the healed blind man being cast out by the religious leaders: John 9
These are just a few examples of how Jesus responded to suffering, prior to His appointed time to die, and the example He gave us to follow. He also fled from them, ducked out, hid Himself and got away from them in general. He called them out and pointed them out, so we could identify our enemies today. Jesus had a lot to say to his enemies, the religious people of the day. He did not remain silent and just suffer their abuse. Jesus drew boundaries. His greatest boundary was saying there was only one way to come to Him and no other. If you want in, this is what you will have to do and there is no other way. The law was a set of boundaries, etc. To say that Peter’s writings on suffering, meant that God expected abused women to stay and take it, is to blaspheme and vilify Who God is and His love and attributes.
Even good religious men can make up their own vision of God in their heads, but that does not mean that we have to accept it, just because it came from men in high position. We have had a couple of great reminders of that recently, haven’t we. We are only called to be subject when the truth is being preached and the Word is being rightly divided and God is being taught rightly. We are not to sit and abide with a false doctrine or teaching “for even an hour”.
As for Peter’s words, it has always been a little confusing to me why the assumption of the husband there is considered an “unbeliever”. Since when does God compare unbelievers to believers? There, God compares the husband to Abraham, a man of faith and the woman is also expected to be a woman of faith. Also, the degree here is that of a man who does not obey the Word. Why would we assume that any unbeliever would obey the Word of God in the first place? A good study on the matter in the original languages reveals that they are not disobedient due to unbelief or disbelief in Christ, as is the case in 1 Peter 2:8, but it rather refers to a man who is being disobedient to God, but a believer. The word “some” is also a clue there, because not “some” unbelievers are disobedient to God, but rather ALL unbelievers are disobedient to God. But for arguments sake, let’s just pretend for a moment, that the age old interpretation by men is true and what I have said is wrong, although it is not. The real content, is that the wife is to win the husband to obedience, without nagging or scolding, and by remaining godly in her conduct and attitude, etc. Now, who believes that the intention of Peter here is to completely malign God’s intention for marriage, and lead anyone to think that he is here speaking of a wife enduring abuse of any kind, at the hands of her (believing) husband. There is no such leading here in that passage. That would completely negate the whole command of submission as unto the Lord, because a woman is never to submit to sin and an abusive husband is sinning against the Lord and against her. It also would excuse the husband from obeying the other commands given to him, to love his wife and consider her as the weaker vessel, etc.
That’s just a “no go” in good interpretation of the Holy Word of God.
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“Miracle Woman” – Barbara Stanwyck – 1931
Great movie – imho – About church – About Religious con artists
And this is 1931
Seems it has a lot in common with Todays Religious System.
I recomend watching the first 6 minutes a few times… 🙂
The opening 6 minutes had me ____________
Fill in the blanks… 😉
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The opening 6 minutes had me ____________ Cheering her on! Preach it sister. Now I am going to watch the rest of this. Thanks Amos!
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Gail, good to see you. I was just thinking about you yesterday.
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My husband and I have still not found a church, but inspired by my new friends here, I realized that we (the body of believers) ARE the Church and we can worship whenever and wherever we want. Last night, on the drive back from our second home, we listened to a sermon by Wade Burleson and played hymns from You Tube and sang along. Today, we are reading some books by N.T. Wright that we ordered and which came in yesterday. I was unaware of his work until recently, having learned about him and Wade either here or over at TWW.
On another note, IAmMyBeloved’s, you are doing great over at RBF. It makes me want to cheer.
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Hi Gail
Nice to hear from you. Yeah, those first 6 minutes are a hoot.
Any sounds very familiar. Oy Vey!!! 😦
And these are quotes from the intro to the movie.
—————
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing,
but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:15
—————-
“The Miracle Woman” is offered as a rebuke
to anyone who, under the cloak of Religion,
seeks to sell for Gold,
God’s Choicest Gift to Humanity _ _ _
FAITH.”
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“Dear Lord, Thank you for the precious defenders of the faith (Jude 3) I have discovered from SSB and others who defend the oppressed.”
Marsha – You stated it very well, “My husband and I have still not found a church, but inspired by my new friends here, I realized that we (the body of believers) ARE the Church and we can worship whenever and wherever we want.” (my greatest grief is my husband has been a wolf and knows it)
I have been gleaning much from Pastor Jeff Crippen (present day preaching) http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=crc
AND Martyn Lloyd Jones is a treasure along with others who have passed on like C H Spurgeon. Presently listening to his Revival series. Wonderful TRUTH!! http://www.mljtrust.org/collections/revival/
Spurgeon – http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermonssource.asp?keyword=spurgeon
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The first 6 minutes had me cheering for her as well! I always felt like Sunday morning was the time to put on your happy face. I admit that I played the game too.
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Beloved, Just for another view, ok? Often when why try to so hard to interpret scripture through our enlightenment and western eyes it is hard to take.
But those people in 1 Peter he is addressing are believers living among unbelievers. If the slave ran away Roman law even in the hinterlands said that the slave could be put to death. A woman was considered chattel under the Roman Pater familias. She was property and if abused or whatever could not run down to the Galatian women’s shelter for help. She was stuck.
1 Peter 2 gives us a clue because of how he is adressing the believers in those provinces:
“Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.”
Foreigners and exiles is our clue they are living among and even with people “not like them”. And it was not unusual for women to be attracted to Christianity. It attracted the powerless and oppressed.
“16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
”
It is almost impossible for us to really understand the situation the early church Gentiles lived in. We have to immerse ourselves in the historical context. It is dangerous to map it to our present situation. It does not map because not only are our laws different but we have resources to help people. A good start is to read the Roman household codes of that time.
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“As for Peter’s words, it has always been a little confusing to me why the assumption of the husband there is considered an “unbeliever”. Since when does God compare unbelievers to believers? There, God compares the husband to Abraham, a man of faith and the woman is also expected to be a woman of faith. ”
He is not comparing the husband to Abraham. He is comparing the believing wife to Sarah and talking about what is important. Not outward adornment but inner self. He simply uses the well known Sarah (even in Pagan circles) as an example of holy women of the past. Now, if you go back and read about Sarah and Abraham, you will also see that God told Abraham to obey Sarah said at one point but you don’t see Peter using that here. :o) Too often we take a reference from the NT and try to apply it in a wooden way the author never intended. Peter mentions Sarah which is interesting because Sarah really screwed up with Hagar did she not? She also went along with Abraham and lying, etc. BTW: Sarah as used in the OT means some variation of royal leader. But mostly, folks forget that Abraham was a bonafide pagan living among pagans as was Sarah when God called him out. Not to mention inward beauty when you are having a baby when 100. :o)
So that passage is really about outward beauty vs. inward beauty and he refers to Sarah because they women were living in a hierarchical pagan society where they had NO rights at all. It was scary for them. How could they have “freedom” in Christ yet be prisoners of the pagan Pater Familias lifestyle?
“Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.”
The more we study the Roman household codes of the time the more we should appreciate our freedom here and now.
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Amos,
There were tears running down my cheeks at the conclusion of the first 6 minutes. Not sure for whom I was weeping. Maybe the heartbroken and now dead preacher (you have taught me to refuse to say “pastor”). Maybe I was weeping for his daughter. Probably for her but also for the great crowd of His precious lambs who have suffered unspeakable, soul-destroying harm in the name of religion, typically masquerading as “truth.”
Marsha,
I am indebted to NT Wright for the part his writings have played in lifting my mind out of the fog of anachronistic theology, theology that insists on understanding Scripture as if it were addressed to only those of us who are alive some 2000 years after the closing of the canon. I expect Lydia would approve. Now if only time can be found to plow through Wright’s recently released 2 volume, 1700 page “Paul and the Faithfulness of God.” I am wondering if this work will not come to be recognized as the magnum opus of the greatest Christian mind since CS Lewis.
Gail,
Good to know you’re still here. I say this as one who has been absent for awhile.
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Gary, glad to see you, too. I have appreciated the comments I’ve seen from you in the blogosphere regarding the ridiculous catechism for wives. Thank you.
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Amos,
In tears, just finished watching movie, it moved me deeply. I loved that she returned to her first LOVE, JESUS.
The verse in James floated up from inside at the end. ” Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.”
Doing my best to hold onto the truth that His mercies are new every morning & great is His faithfulness.
Hello back to Julie Anne & Gary. I read here everyday, love it here.
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The opening 6 minutes had me wanting to hear more. Preach on Sister. The truth shall set you free.
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“I am indebted to NT Wright for the part his writings have played in lifting my mind out of the fog of anachronistic theology, theology that insists on understanding Scripture as if it were addressed to only those of us who are alive some 2000 years after the closing of the canon. I expect Lydia would approve. Now if only time can be found to plow through Wright’s recently released 2 volume, 1700 page “Paul and the Faithfulness of God.” I am wondering if this work will not come to be recognized as the magnum opus of the greatest Christian mind since CS Lewis.”
Gary, It is weird. I avoided NT Wright for about 3 years after hearing about him. I was avoiding all preachers/pastors, etc, back then. But at the same time I was immersing myself in the culture of the time scriptures were written. So when I started reading/listening to him I realized he was actually a serious “scholar” who had the ability to communicate to the non scholar. (That should be what we view as the “preacher” part, eh?)
And while I don’t agree with him on things like the sacraments, etc, his scholarship is breathtaking. He is one of the rare few who studied much and was in the trenches teaching before he wrote his first book and then tons of books thereafter. The thing that resonates with me so much is his focus on living out the kingdom now because of the resurrection. But even then, his actual life on earth is communicating to us how to be a human. A part that is left out often.
It never occured to me before that hundreds of young Jewish men were crucified by the Romans. But only ONE was resurrected. It had also not occured to me that there were other “Messiahs” for Israel before and after Jesus the Christ. But they were zealots. There is the whole Jewish political aspect to understanding the NT scripture that has been totally ignored. And why not? Most of the gurus since Augustine hated Jews including the Protestant Reformers. Jewish understanding of Yahweh is totally nil in most of Protestantism which totally escaped me. But it changes so much about how we understand scripture.
I cannot wait to read Paul and the Faithfulness of God. Paul is the totally twisted to keep people in bondage. NT Wright totally changed how I read Romans. It is no wonder Piper has tried to paint him as a heretic of sorts.
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“In tears, just finished watching movie, it moved me deeply. I loved that she returned to her first LOVE, JESUS.”
Gail, I just finished watching it, too. I was only going to do the first part that Amos mentioned but since it is one of those “restful” days, decided to watch the whole thing. It is so easy to get caught up in the entertainment aspects and expecting great things from God instead of our just doing/being as humans made in His image.
Ironic how they ended it her returning to simple Christianity of her time. I have really enjoyed reading some of Catherine Booths sermons/writings in the past.
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Amos, On top of the message of the first 6 minutes this was an all around great movie. They just don’t make them like that any more.
In this movie the Pastor was being abused by the elders and possibly the entire assembly. His daughter saw this, told the truth of the absence of Christ and the sin that ran rampant in their body. Sister turned away from God because of the abuse and her fathers death, but she came back. She gave up the worldly things, came back to her Lord and found a remarkable love for Him and the man who helped her to find her way back. You can’t get more romantic than that and I’m a sucker for a good romance movie. Any ladies out there saying, Amen??
Thank you for the heads up on this movie. It was a wonderful way to spend a Sunday afternoon. Sunday morning I heard a sermon on Ps 95. I will try to send a link once it is online. It was brought by a man standing in front of the people in the pews/chairs, but is worth listening to. When Jesus, Peter, Paul and others told the gospel to those who would listen there were often large gatherings, possibly with one man standing while others sat on the ground as they listened. The only thing different for me this morning was that I had a comfortable chair to sit on.
I think I will spend more of the day reading some of the reference scripture given this morning, and maybe do some praising on the piano. I’m sure the Lord will tune out the wrong keys that I hit from time to time.
Thanks again.
________________________________
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Lydia observers, “Jewish understanding of Yahweh is totally nil in most of Protestantism which totally escaped me.” I suspect that the typical rabbi who has read him has a better understanding of Paul and his teaching than the great majority of today’s Christian scholars and preachers. Maybe the same could be said of most Jews who have read Paul. I don’t know. I wonder.
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Gary,
A great example of that is how Paul uses the Pslams in Romans. No Rabbi reads Psalms woodenly like most Protestants do. They know it is poetry of man talking to God. As Wright says, you don’t put poetry into a computer program and get a literal meaning back.
If that were the case, we could all be “washed clean” with Hyssop and would be begging God to bash our enemy’s babies heads on rocks.
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Lydia,
I know that there is a lot of denominations that teach that Peter, in his epistles, were teaching Gentiles in a Roman world…and where did that idea come from? The Catholics, of course.
Well, when I read 1 and 2 Peter, I discover something. He is teaching his fellow Jews, who converted to Christianity. He makes several reference to Gentiles, showing differences between a believing Jew vs. unbelieving Gentiles, whereas when Paul writes, he references unbelieving Jews vs. believing Gentiles.
I’ve done some research on this about why Catholics think that Peter was in Rome, is due to Peter’s use of the word Babylon. They believe that Peter was so afraid of being killed, that he, Peter, used the word Babylon as some sort of CODE word for Rome.
But further study shows that in Peter’s epistles, Peter was indeed in Babylon at one time. Now, why would he be there? Because there were Jews there. As Paul points out, Peter was ordained of God to proselytize Jews, as Paul was to do the same with Gentiles.
Aish.com is a Jewish website and gives a great history lesson in regards to Babylon, in that it existed well beyond Jesus’ day, and that prior to the arrival of Jesus, when the Jews were released from Babylonian Captivity, many more Jews stayed behind than those who came back to the Homeland by a huge margin…HUGE. It’s been a few months since I looked at that web site, but last I recall, this Babylon (Assyria) existed a few hundred years beyond Jesus, and in addition, the Babylonian Talmud was being written.
So, since Paul points out Peter’s ordination, as well as his own, Jews/Gentiles, and the unbiased website of aish.com, being a Jewish website not partial to either Paul or Peter, and the way words are constructed in the epistles of Peter in regards to unbelieving Gentiles vs. Believing Jews, I conclude that Peter was in Assyria (Babylon), and not Rome.
Besides, Paul himself wouldn’t have wanted Peter in his territory anyway.
Romans 15:20
Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
Bottom line…I don’t believe the Catholic “tradition” that Peter was in Rome…ever. So, I don’t believe that there was any Roman influence in any of his teachings. Just my take on it.
Ed
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Gary and Lydia,
I started with Scripture and the Authority of God today and it’s wonderful. We also bought Simply Jesus, Surprised by Scripture and the two volume Paul and the Faithfulness of God which I also can’t wait to read. I think it’s best for me to start with Scripture and the Authority of God first though. I am really excited.
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“It is no wonder Piper has tried to paint him [NT Wright] as a heretic of sorts.” Piper has only succeeded in painting himself as a man who has limited empathic understanding of the human condition. Therefore, what he writes, it seems to me, largely misses the mind and heart of the God who created men and women in his own image.
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Gary W,
Before today I have never heard of NT Wright, so I will have to read a book to get an understanding of where he comes from. Don’t even get me started on Piper and the was he twists scripture. I want to enjoy this day.
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At church today, my pastor read Acts 4:13: “The members of the council were amazed when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, for they could see that they were ordinary men with no special training in the Scriptures. They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus.”
My pastor stressed the part about ordinary men, unschooled, with no seminary training who changed the world by answer the call. I appreciated that emphasis.
My thoughts: These men didn’t have seminary training, but what they had was a relationship with Jesus – a direct relationship with no mediator – no priest to speak on their behalf (for women, no husband to intervene). That tells me that Jesus can use you and me – us simpletons – to accomplish His work.
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Marsha,
Then you can treat yourself to the earlier volumes in Wright’s Christian Origins and the Question of God series. But if you wish to discuss any of it you had best check with Lydia, who, it is obvious, has attained and retained a much better understanding of Wright’s writings than have I. (I wanted to refer to “Wright’s right righteous writings” but decided to desist.)
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I really appreciate NT Wrights view of women in scripture.
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Brenda R,
I was once something of a Piper fanboy. I began to figure out something was wrong one evening when I attempted to do a teaching on marriage from one of Piper’s books. One of the participants, a divorced woman, was in tears before I apologized and shut the class down early. The preacher, who was participating in the class (and who I happen to respect), thought it was probably a good thing I had managed to reduce somebody to tears. A Holy Spirit conviction thing, don’t you know?
Aaargh!
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“Then you can treat yourself to the earlier volumes in Wright’s Christian Origins and the Question of God series. But if you wish to discuss any of it you had best check with Lydia, who, it is obvious, has attained and retained a much better understanding of Wright’s writings than have I. (I wanted to refer to “Wright’s right righteous writings” but decided to desist.)”
Well, he was once a “Right Reverend”. :o)
Actually, I am less familiar with his views on NT interpretation on women proof texts than his other work on Pauls, the resurrection, sanctification. etc.
I had done so much study on the woman proof texts from historical context over the years, one can get a bit put out with the whole issue after a while. And I think his historical context teaching fits right in to the issue anyway. It is no mistake he starts Paul and the Faithfulness of God with the book obscure book of Philemon. One of the most poignant because of historical context, issue of slavery, culture, etc. As believers we are to transcend our culture and that is what he was begging Philemon to do when the law said he could put Oni to death.
There are 2 women who have done the heavy lifting over the years on the woman passages who are excellent sources. One is Katherine Bushnell and “God’s Word to Women” and the other is Cheryl Schatz and her women in ministry DVD.
http://www.mmoutreach.org/wim/women-in-ministry-silenced-or-set-free-dvd/
Both women have done yeomans work on historical context, grammar, word meanings of the time, etc.
I praise God for these precious hard working Bereans.
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I highly recommend NT Wright’s “Surprised by Hope” videos. Many are on youtube.
Here is the first one:
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JA, Then I like him already.
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Gary,
If it was “This Momentary Marriage”, that book kept me in bondage for 3 years longer than need be. There was no need to do so and no change in the X. I was with him for 19 years prior to reading this book and had thought of separation for many of those years. Between being told by my pastor that “WE JUST needed to get him saved” and that book, it only made matters worse. I left after those 3 years and have been happy every day for 13 months and 9 days. Whenever I find a Piper book at garage sales and thrift stores I buy them up just so no one else will get to his version of the Bible too easily.
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Lydia – I get what you are saying, because that is how it has always been taught to us, but the original languages do not translate it that way. In 1 Peter 2:8 the term there is definitely unbelief in Christ. In 1 Peter 3 it is a believing man being disobedient to God. The word “some” also gives a throwing into what is really going on in 1 Peter 3, because ” if some” unbelievers are disobeying the Word is not even possible – because all unbelievers are in disobedience to God’s Word, all the time. Hope that helps clarify.
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Marsha,
Here is what happened to me. I got to a point I could not read scripture. I had a “filter” I had allowed to take over and “I knew scripture well”, dontcha know.. I don’t know why except for “association” with certain groups for so long it is amazing how ingrained it can become. I was not even raised to view scripture that way. That is what was so scary.
That is why I went for historical context. I love history anyway so it was not really work to me. And it started changing my view totally. You know in this day and time we have much at our fingertips for free it amazes me.
Then I started to read/listen to other scholars outside the typical guru world and learning more about different genres scripture was written in, etc.
I really understand why now in this day and time more pastors/preachers are not using historical context, word meanings, etc when they teach. A historical backdrop which is extremely pagan, btw. To do so, would mean they give up their influence. Their control over others. And they would not be able to map a lot of it to our day and time, literally.
Now, it is a joy to read the scriptures.
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“Lydia – I get what you are saying, because that is how it has always been taught to us, but the original languages do not translate it that way. In 1 Peter 2:8 the term there is definitely unbelief in Christ. In 1 Peter 3 it is a believing man being disobedient to God. The word “some” also gives a throwing into what is really going on in 1 Peter 3, because ” if some” unbelievers are disobeying the Word is not even possible – because all unbelievers are in disobedience to God’s Word, all the time. Hope that helps clarify.”
No prob. It is good to discuss things. Most were not taught the way I presented it at all. Most were taught it IS speaking of believing husbands/masters so you have to submit to them to be a good Christian/slave, whatever…many map it to employees today. I have seen that interpretation trotted out in many a comp seminary. Have you read it in an interlinear? My interlinear is on another computer so I cannot go back and check the grammar.
Would a slave owner in the Body beat his slave and expect no rebuke from Peter? It seems Peter is saying to the slaves in the Bodies of those provinces that some masters are kind while others are harsh so here is how you handle it. (there was no law protecting the slaves from cruelty). I find it hard to believe Peter was assuming the harsh slave owners were in the Body he was addressing without even a hint of rebuke.
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Brenda R,
Yes, it would have been “This Momentary Marriage.” I am so sorry John Piper succeeded in holding you in bondage, through this book, for so long. I am so happy you have found freedom. Probably I should apologize for not having been more attentive to your plea not to get you started about John Piper. I do apologize.
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Hey Lydia – No, I studied it out in the original Greek. I do have an interlinear but that more states the wording, not the actual meaning of the words.
What is weird, is that I have always been told it was referring to an unbelieving spouse, not a believing one!! It has been used by others to demand that women stay in abusive marriages and win their husbands to Christ, by being silent and submissive, even in the face of abuse. I have never though that was what Peter was saying or even implying. Hence, I began a study to understand. The words I was hung up on were “if” and “some” because as I said previously, how could just “some” unbelievers be disobeying the Word? I appreciate conversing with you about it —
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Gary W,
No problem and no apologies required at all. I could say a whole lot more about JP, but I will refrain. Of the books I have read I have had “What did you just say?” moments in all of them. Anytime I can get the word out on this subject, it is a good time. I strongly recommend that anyone who believes they are in an abusive or destructive marriage, please do not read this book. I recommend, Leslie Vernick, Barbara Roberts, Lundy Bancroft, Dr Henry Cloud. There are others, but memory fails me right now.
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Brenda R, David Instone-Brewer is a name that has come up here. His book on my Amazon wish list is Divorce and Remarriage in the Bible: The Social and Literary Context. So many books…
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Gary W, He is on my reading list, as well. I know, so many books and so little time.
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Gary W,
Gary W, I want to make a Piper joke, but it wouldn’t be charitable — and that’s an understatement. I’m glad that you’re no longer a fan.
We walk in the light that we have at the time. There’s a learning curve with these folks because they don’t tell you everything that you need to know up front.
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If anyone is interested, there’s a new film about Warren Jeffs on Lifetime Movies tonight. It starts NOW.
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Cindy, how did your conference go?
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O. K. Since Cindy K won’t tell her John Piper joke I found this cartoon called “Driscoll, MacArthur and Piper Meet God” (by nakedpastor David Hayward):
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nakedpastor/2013/11/mark-driscoll-john-macarthur-and-john-piper-meet-god/
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Then here is Piper himself being laughed at by an audience of Christian Counselors:
I really don’t know what to make of this video, except it seems Piper truly did not expect the laughter after maybe the first time. Either Piper was being open and transparent and was surprised to be laughed at, or he was perhaps conveying truth about himself in a jesting manner so as to be able to maintain plausible deniability. There could be other ways to read it. One way or the other, this is weird.
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There is also a documentary about Warren Jeffs on Netflix called “I got free from a cult” or something to that affect. I watched a small portion of it, but was just too disturbing to me to watch much of it.
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“What is weird, is that I have always been told it was referring to an unbelieving spouse, not a believing one!! It has been used by others to demand that women stay in abusive marriages and win their husbands to Christ, by being silent and submissive, even in the face of abuse. ”
I must have missed it but I thought your interpretation would essentially mean the same thing–her being submissive to the husband yet no rebuke for the husband if he was a believer. Which would make sense because there was no where for a woman to escape bad treatment from her husband in society. The safest bet would be for her to walk that tightrope of submission to him and purity of heart no matter how he treats her.
When Peter describes the believers as “foreigners” from what I can gather in my research he is speaking of them being the kingdom now so to speak. They are the light of the world in a dark world and here is how you handle these types of situations (because frankly the culture gave them no other out) when you are amongst unbelievers.
I would be interested in hearing your take on “weaker vessel” from your study. For me, it has historical overtones as she has no place in society outside her husband or father. She has no power/position/protection outside the Pater Familias unless she was a very wealthy Gentile woman.
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” David Instone-Brewer is a name that has come up here”
You can get the gist of his teaching on divorce from OT to NT from some of the videos he has done. They should be on youtube or his blog site.
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Gary, Naked Pastor often cracks me up. Thanks for the link!
Have you ever seen the coffee with Jesus comics?
http://www.radiofreebabylon.com/Comics/CoffeeWithJesus.php
This one especially cracks me up since a couple of Martha Stewartesque mega church gals started a “Christian cupcake” business a few years back with Christian themes.
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Gary, that IS a weird video. very weird. Piper is not known for his humor. Ever. He is known for his over passionate flowery verbosity and seriousness. I think they might have had some humorous speakers before and were in that mode. He is not being funny at all and seems put out with their laughter. That is Piper.
Note: How he is exalting himself by pointing out all his insecurities. They are not taking in the way he means but thinking he is being funny. Weird. He even admits he was not expecting laughter. I think he might have even been offended by it. He even tells them to stop laughing then thinks better of it all the time trying to steer it to seriousness.
Besetting sins? Oh here we go….You would think these guys need to be told of the resurrection.
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These are the same “besetting sins” that I have Piper confess SO MANY times that I could have told you what he was going to say next. Since reformed theology is the duelism of “how holy God is” vs “how sinful I am ” John Piper can do nothing but confess the same sins, over and over and over. No progress is made in his life. No change. This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, folks.
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Lydia, on reflection, I think Piper was attempting to somehow inoculate himself against criticism by confessing his character flaws. It is akin to thinking that to confess is to be absolved. I have a book on psychoanalytic diagnosis that calls it undoing, though undoing also takes orther forms. If Piper weren’t held up as such a guiding light I could perhaps pity him. As it is, he is an example of the blind leading the blind, often, as we have heard today, with devastating consequences.
Thanks for linking to the comic, I think. I used to not get much into Vallentine’s Day. I suggest we not go there.
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“I think Piper was attempting to somehow inoculate himself against criticism by confessing his character flaws. ”
Interesting way to look at it and makes total sense. Why are so many Christians determined to brag about being sinners? And not being able to help it? Why should we trust them?
Mahaney does this all the time. “I am the worst sinner I know”
Many should have believed him long ago and ran away from him!
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“These are the same “besetting sins” that I have Piper confess SO MANY times that I could have told you what he was going to say next.”
I know! He has been doing this since 1998 when I ran across him. Hasn’t anyone told him of the resurrection and promised Holy Spirit? (wink)
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Ok, Amos – – I had some pressing homework assignments due and was not able to watch the first 6 minutes of the video you posted until just now. WHOAAAAA!!! Have you been holding out on us on that one? Amazing. Ok, I am going to watch that movie tomorrow. What a start with those first 6 minutes. Incredible. That’s some good preaching. I can picture a few specific modern-day male faces in that audience pointing their scrawny fingers at her.
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Gary W,
That was good!!
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Gary W,
Thank you for the Piper clip. He says he is short on compassion. Duh!! If anyone who has ever heard him speak and really listened or read one of his books they would know that. I am very suprised that he spent time with a Chritian Counselor. I would have thought he would preach against any counselor other than the preacher. That did suprise me. He was, “not sure of his motives for speaking there”. I’m not either. It is not his typical venue. He usually speak to people who are going to put him on a pedestal. Perhaps God had a good purpose. Maybe a lesson in humility.
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Lydia,
That one was profound. I never was much for all of that stuff on man made holidays. I like things, “just because”. But that was good to see. A man truly getting what his other half wants.
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IAM,
There was a documentary after the Lifetime movie of Warren Jeffs last week. I wonder if it was the same one. I didn’t watch it, but did watch the movie. He is one sick puppy.
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David-Instone Brewer’s books are excellent. In there he also discusses the Titus 2 topic and discusses that very well.
I think his books are well worth any expense to have them.
Lydia – My only thought on weaker vessel, because I have not studied it out, is that God is just saying we are not as physically strong as men, so men should step up and handle the tough stuff. Kind of like the manly tasks in life versus the womanly tasks in life. I don’t think it means anything more than that, but it would make interesting days to study it. Women did work outside the home and so did young girls. Of course the “jobs” were different in those days, but a lot of the work was heavy work, just as it still is today.
Brenda R – Yep. Just made me sick enough I could not even watch it.
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IAm,
Agree completely about the weaker vessel. Our backs, shoulders and arms were not made as strong and not meant for the physical labor that men could do. It doesn’t mean that we are not mentally as strong.
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Here is a slightly edited version of a comment I just posted over on the Reformed Baptist Fellowship blog:
As each step of the creation was more glorious then all that preceded, so also is woman more glorious than man. As Adam is more glorious than the dirt from which he was formed, so also is Eve more glorious than Adam from whose rib she was formed. Man is the glory of God, woman the glory of man. 1 Cor. 11:7. Therefore, woman is the glory of the glory of God.
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“. I am very suprised that he spent time with a Chritian Counselor. I would have thought he would preach against any counselor other than the preacher”
A few years ago he took a lot of time off to “work on the garden of his marriage”. Made a huge deal about “his marriage needed attention”. This was AFTER all the comp seminars, women’s conferences where he spoke on what a Christian marriage looked like in submission. Sad, the attendees most likely do not have husbands who can take a paid year off to work on their marriages.
To me “Christian counselor” is more often meaning “Nouthetic Counseling” where Piper fits right in.
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“Agree completely about the weaker vessel. Our backs, shoulders and arms were not made as strong and not meant for the physical labor that men could do. It doesn’t mean that we are not mentally as strong.”
I would say physical labor and no pain relief with each child is not “weaker vessel”! :o)
And if the building were on fire, either JA or I would have to carry guys like Russ Moore, DP, Piper and many others out who are tiny tiny men. (wink)
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That makes more sense, Lydia. Although, I had a Christian Counselor who used the Bible with me along with books that helped a lot. But if a person told her they didn’t want Bible reference she would not turn them away. It would be nice if people like him would say what they really mean. It is completely misleading. I do know pastors who do not believe in counselors no matter what name they go by. We were not disallowed doctors, dentists…..I don’t see the problem with counseling and/or feedback from a trusted Christian friend, but many think that is wrong when discussing your marriage.
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It makes me wonder what kind of brain washing, Noel Piper went through.
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I would say physical labor and no pain relief with each child is not “weaker vessel”! :o)
I didn’t think about that kind of physical labor!! lol It has been 28 years since I did that and you’re right, I had no drugs whatsoever.
I am kind of small myself. I don’t think I could pick Piper up, but adrenaline could set in I suppose.
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Brenda R……put John Piper down this minute!
Piper might have worked on the garden of his marriage, for THREE YEARS with counselors like Paul David Tripp, discovering the “idols in his heart”, but Piper still can’t say he has changed. BECAUSE HE HASN’T. Epic fail for this theology.
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Carmen S, You are tooooo funny. I have started working out with an 8 lb medicine ball. Eventually, I think I could do it. lol
I agree, I see no improvement if anything JP is even more adamant about his theology.
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IamMyBeloved’s said,
“Someone asked the question about these verses, and why we cannot just admit that we are called to suffer, as Christ did, so I shared what I have studied and learned about these passages.”
Yes, thank you.
As the authors of the book “No More Christian Nice Girl” pointed out (read free excerpts from that book _here_ – that link is to chapter 1 or the intro of the book, if you look around his blog, he has a few more chapters you can read for free)…..
The only time Jesus willingly took abuse (and did not usually try to fight back) was at the time of the cross because he was the Messiah and was fulfilling thousands-years-old prophecy.
Prior to that, Jesus either stood up to his abusers and the bullies, or he walked off and left them and did not stick around for further abuse! Jesus was not a doormat, and he was not advocating that Christians allow themselves to be mistreated in each and every circumstance in life.
I wish more Christians would realize that.
Also interesting, even after he was arrested, when some temple guard slapped him – though Jesus had done nothing to warrant being smacked – Jesus confronted the guy about it:
Jesus did not just stand there in silence and submit to it and take it, he stood up for himself and pointed out that the guard’s actions were unjust.
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Add ™ to that list. I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that some of these men who are very short in stature are some of the loudest and strongest voices on asserting their presumed male authority position over women.
It’s pretty sad. You all know I’m very tall. I’m taller than most guys and so it means nothing to me to be taller than a guy – it is what it is – – it’s beyond my control. I remember when I was working full-time nearly 30 years ago and I had to go to a co-worker for info. He said the info was on the other side of the building and so we walked together. Well, we didn’t walk together as most would do, ‘he walked 10 feet ahead of me the whole way. It was so funny, he used a very long stride and I almost had to do a jog to keep up with him. Yes, he was very insecure even being seen by me who towered over him. What a shame.
I wonder how some of the above-mentioned guys would react to a woman who was considerably taller than them. That might be a good test.
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“Add ™ to that list. I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that some of these men who are very short in stature are some of the loudest and strongest voices on asserting their presumed male authority position over women.”
Don’t forget Owen Strachan and Bruce Ware.
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JA,
The Napoleon Complex at its finest.
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Julie Anne, you gave me another piece of the puzzle in regards to “deposed for abusing his wife OPC minister”. Thank you! No wonder he had to walk at a breakneck speed around me. I’m 5 foot eight, he was five foot nine, and I was perfectly happy with that. He had made a comment the first time he contacted me that he was probably too short….wouldn’t I want a man who was 6 feet. No.
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missdaisyflower,
Ya know, when these men state that women are to submit to them as they submit to Christ, I would like to know how they submit to Christ. I’ve never seen in writing how they submit to Christ. I’ve only seen how wives are to submit to the husbands.
Now, Paul did receive a lot of abuse, as noted in 2 Cor 11 (From the “Common English Bible”).
Paul defends himself
16 I repeat, no one should take me for a fool. But if you do, then allow me to be a fool so that I can brag like a fool for a bit. 17 I’m not saying what I’m saying because the Lord tells me to. I’m saying it like I’m a fool. I’m putting my confidence in this business of bragging. 18 Since so many people are bragging based on human standards, that is how I’m going to brag too. 19 Because you, who are so wise, are happy to put up with fools. 20 You put up with it if someone enslaves you, if someone exploits you, if someone takes advantage of you, if someone places themselves over you, or if someone hits you in the face. 21 I’m ashamed to say that we have been weak in comparison! But in whatever they challenge me, I challenge them (I’m speaking foolishly).
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they ministers of Christ? I’m speaking like a crazy person. What I’ve done goes well beyond what they’ve done. I’ve worked much harder. I’ve been imprisoned much more often. I’ve been beaten more times than I can count. I’ve faced death many times. 24 I received the “forty lashes minus one” from the Jews five times. 25 I was beaten with rods three times. I was stoned once. I was shipwrecked three times. I spent a day and a night on the open sea. 26 I’ve been on many journeys. I faced dangers from rivers, robbers, my people, and Gentiles. I faced dangers in the city, in the desert, on the sea, and from false brothers and sisters. 27 I faced these dangers with hard work and heavy labor, many sleepless nights, hunger and thirst, often without food, and in the cold without enough clothes.
28 Besides all the other things I could mention, there’s my daily stress because I’m concerned about all the churches. 29 Who is weak without me being weak? Who is led astray without me being furious about it? 30 If it’s necessary to brag, I’ll brag about my weaknesses. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, the one who is blessed forever, knows that I’m not lying. 32 At Damascus the governor under King Aretas was guarding the city of Damascus in order to capture me, 33 but I got away from him by being lowered in a basket through a window in the city wall.
So, have the men submitted to Christ like Paul did? I think not. Verses 19-20 intrigues me.
19 Because you, who are so wise, are happy to put up with fools. 20 You put up with it if someone enslaves you, if someone exploits you, if someone takes advantage of you, if someone places themselves over you
Ed
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Carmen S.,
Height really is a big deal for some people. I could tell you stories of my interactions with men who clearly were not comfortable in their own shoes and felt the need to compensate because of it.
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It is too bad. It really is what is in the heart that counts. I am 5’1″, my younger sister is 5’8″. She always wanted to be shorter like me. I couldn’t figure out why. Petite sizes were not so easy to come by way back when. I had to shorten everything. The tallest man I ever dated was 6’6″. It was a little awkward slow dancing.
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Try it the other way around where the gal is the taller one – – – and slow dancing. LOL
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Re (Julie Anne wrote)
I was going to refer to Napoleon Complex, but Brenda R beat me to it! 🙂
Julie Anne wrote
My mother was several inches shorter than me, and my legs were longer than hers, but….
Anytime we went to Home Depot, the mall, or other shopping places together, she could out-walk me. She walked so fast I had to do a semi-jog to keep up with her and beg her to slow down!!
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JA,
That remind me of the movie “Sixteen Candles” with Molly Ringwald. The foreign exchange student, Long Duck Dong went out with a girl much taller than him and he kept his head buried in her chest. He seemed to enjoy himself. The moral of the story is “there is someone for everyone”. I just seemed to find men who were 6 ft or more.
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chapmaned24 said
All very good points. They emphasize the woman’s role, but rarely the man’s, at least not in terms of submission.
They go on and on about how women should submit and how men are to lead, but not the other way around.
And as the blogger “Heretic Husband” pointed out on one of his pages, one problem with the gender complementarian position is that it assumes each and every gender comp husband is going to be perfect like Jesus. Gender complementarianism presumes a perfect husband from the outset, but some husbands are abusive or selfish.
I forget exactly how he makes the argument, but you can read it here:
John Piper and the No True Complementarian Fallacy
(link is to heretic husband .com blog)
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Hi Gary W
You write @ JULY 13, 2014 @ 9:58 AM
“Not sure for whom I was weeping.
Maybe the heartbroken and now dead preacher”
Yes – I have wept for, and with pastors, and their families, who thought they were called to be pastors. Today’s Corrupt Religious System just eats them up and spits them out. The ones who really get hurt seem to be the ones who really love Jesus, and care about the folks. The ones who just want to serve Jesus and serve His People. Like the pastor in this movie.
The Narcissists, The authoritarians, Those addicted to Power, Profit, Prestige, just keep rolloing along like nuttins wrong.
Had a friend, an Episcopal Priest. We met at a conference and became friends. He asked for help. He was responsible for a very old, very small, congregation in a quaint little tourist town. And, in only three years, the board was giving him a hard time. He asked me to come and pray with him about it.
Jesus became real to him when he was 38 or so, and in seminary. And this was his first gig as head priest. He was cool. Started a Bible Study in a barber shop a couple of towns away. And his board did NOT like that. We would walk the streets and look for folks to talk to about Jesus. And his board did NOT like that. They said he was embarrassing them. He started a prayer and praise meeting on sunday nights and Tues nights. 12-15 folks would show up, maybe 3 from his congregation. And his board did NOT like that.
I drove over an hour, twice a week, sometimes more, to be with them.
I never told them what I believed about Todays Corrupt Religious System.
I never told them what I believed about todays pastors, or leaders…
I was there to support them. Give him and his wife a shoulder to cry on.
Eventually, two years later, his board has him fired. But they have to pay him for six months, and he gets to live in the Rectory, the house next to the building with a steeple on it, for six months. Did I say it was a small town? Where every one knows your name and your business? Every place they shopped, walked, people knew he was fired.
What a horror for him and his wife. 😦
There are lots of reasons why 50% of pastors do NOT last five years.
Why 57% of pastors who remain, want to quit, do something else.
But they can NOT find another job.
Why 80% of pastors spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
Why 80% say pastoral ministry has a negative effect on their family.
Why 77% say they do NOT have a good marriage.
Why 70% say they constantly battle depression.
In the Bible, any of His Disciples “Called” to be called pastor/leader?
Any of His disciples “Called” to have the “title” pastor/leader?
When you belive the lie you start to die…
When you live the lie you die slowly, failure by failure, day by day…
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Re
This reminds me of how a lot of Christians got ticked off over “The Shack” book (which I read about a year ago) because God the Father was depicted as a woman (who happened to be a black person).
The Holy Spirit was also a woman (of Asian appearance) in that book. Jesus was portrayed as, IIRC, like he is in the New Testament, only wearing Levi jeans and a plaid shirt.
I don’t know if all the theology in the book was spot on, and as God the Father is said in the Bible to have no body (he is spirit), he technically is not really either male or female per se, but I found it interesting that so many conservatives (and yes, I’m pretty conservative myself) get offended by representations of God or the Holy Spirit as anything other than a white man.
I don’t generally see conservative Christians getting worked in a tizzy or picking apart that Sistine Chapel painting where God is painted as an old white guy with a long, white beard extending a hand out to Adam.
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit took the form of a DOVE on a few occasions… conservative Christians don’t get in an uproar over that, but goodness me oh my, an author uses a literary device in his book of one or two members of the Trinity taking the form of a woman, and many conservative Christians get in an uproar and start screaming how unbiblical it is, it’s heresy, it’s goddess worship, it’s secular feminism, etc.
I am not arguing that God is a woman, but, I find it offensive that so many conservative Christians consider the mere notion of God possibly choosing to take on a female appearance deeply offensive, even in a fictional work.
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missdaisyflower,
You had said: “I am not arguing that God is a woman, but, I find it offensive that so many conservative Christians consider the mere notion of God possibly choosing to take on a female appearance deeply offensive, even in a fictional work.”
My response:Every testimony that I have ever heard, however, has been that God chooses to take on the appearance of Jesus Christ. Taking on the appearance of a female would be offensive to me, since I expect to see Jesus. Jesus has appeared to many people in history. More recent history is that he is revealing himself to Muslims. A little Muslim girl, maybe about 5 or so, was supposedly murdered…well, at least left for dead in a shallow grave. She was found alive, and she revealed to them that the person that took care of her and fed her had a white robe and holes in his hand. I don’t think that God would reveal himself in any other form than Jesus.
Ed
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“I don’t know if the theology in the book was spot on.” There was so much in that book that was spot off it’s impossible to condense in a short summary. Unfortunately, the professional conservative Christian hierarchy couldn’t discuss this book at a level that didn’t appear to you to be more than “ticked off”, “worked in a tizzy”, “in an uproar”, and thus they lost a voice in which to communicate to you and maybe many others.
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Toward the end of His earthly ministry, Jesus told His disciples He had to leave so the Holy Spirit could come to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and would guide people into all truth. When He comes again it will be “in the glory of His Father with His angels” ( Matthew 16:27). Jesus warned about any supposed appearance prior to that time ( Matthew 24).
Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet, but not God. The Muslim, Isa, who is appearing in dreams either identifies himself as Jesus or is assumed to be Jesus. Isa doesn’t share the gospel, he tells the dreamers he loves them and wants the dreamers to follow him. Sometimes the dreamer is overwhelmed with a sense of love and peace just by being in Isa’s presence ( which was never the case with unbelievers in the presence of Jesus). So the message that has emerged with Muslims is believing in Isa apart from the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin, righteousness, and judgment ( John 16:8).
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Carmen S.
The one thing that I think that you missed from my comment was the holes in the hands. Isa, the Muslim Jesus, doesn’t have holes in his hands. The Christian Jesus does. It is the Christian Jesus that is revealing himself, not the Muslim Isa.
By the way, If you breakdown the word “ISAIAH”, from the Hebrew, of course, it is ISA JAH. Jah, being God, Isa being Salvation, or Jesus. Interesting, huh?
Ed
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“Someone asked the question about these verses, and why we cannot just admit that we are called to suffer, as Christ did, so I shared what I have studied and learned about these passages.”
Oh boy!!! Any “Christian” who tells another Christian it is their duty to suffer INSTEAD of working to alleviate that suffering in any way they can is a FRAUD. Run.
OR, some will even tell you that God will work it for good (totally misapplying a proof text) when many know there are too many instances that NO good came out of it at all. Too many pastors teaching this in unsuspecting places. Beware… because they are liked they get a pass on their teaching of this cruel doctrine and misapplying proof texts. Some even teach your suffering is glorifying to God. That is giving God credit for what is really Satan. It is vile.
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Ed, I didn’t miss the holes in the hands. It’s not the Lord Jesus Christ appearing to any Muslims, Americans, Canadians, etc.
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Carmen S.
I totally disagree. I happen to believe the testimonies. I believe that Jesus visibly reveals himself to people…with holes in his hands, and feet. I do not believe that it is a conjuring up of the devil, or a hallucination, either. I also believes that he reveals himself to Mexicans, and Australians, too.
Ed
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Carmen S.
Jesus revealing himself to people is not the same as the Matthew 24 reference in regards to the return of Christ. Separate topics. Jesus has not returned, I know that. This is also not a Mormon issue that I am discussing, either.
I cannot discount the testimonies, especially they way that they describe them, in the detail that they do…especially coming from a little child, but also from those in their jail cells…Muslims testified of it of seeing Jesus…not Issa.
Seeing Jesus is not the same as the return of Jesus.
Ed
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chapmaned24said
My response:Every testimony that I have ever heard, however, has been that God chooses to take on the appearance of Jesus Christ. Taking on the appearance of a female would be offensive to me, since I expect to see Jesus.
Why are you dragging up Jesus? I said nothing about JC being depicted as a woman…. but I am still offended that you are offended. It should not bother you the least if JC is depicted as a woman. JC created women. His maleness (in human form) is incidental to the fact he was both God and man (ie human) while on earth.
I specifically referenced God the Father and the Holy Spirit, though.
There are three members of the Trinity:
God the Father
God the Son (Jesus)
God the Holy Spirit
They are three distinct persons yet = one God.
God the Father is neither male nor female; Bible says he has no physical body.
Holy Spirit presents himself as a dove in the Bible, not as a human being.
Ergo, IMO, evangelicals, fundamentalists, Lutherans, and other varieties of Christians should not be upset when a book author chooses to portray God as a black woman or Holy Spirit as Asian woman in a fictional work that was only mean to demonstrate the main points that God loves people and even though bad things happen to you in life, you can still trust God. Most Christians I saw beat that book up spent more time upset over the presentations of God the Father and the HS than anything else.
If you are not upset by God Father being painted as an old white man in Sistine Chapel, it should not bug you to see him depicted as a black lady in some book.
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chapmaned24,
God the Father is not the same as Jesus – they are both God but are still distinct persons.
This is how God the Father appeared to John, from Rev Ch 4:
No mention there of a white guy, or even a guy of Middle Eastern appearance, with beard and mustache in a robe.
This is how God the Holy Spirit is said to have appeared, from Luke 3:
God (the Holy Spirit) did not even take on human form, but a body of an animal.
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Carmen said,
There was so much in that book that was spot off it’s impossible to condense in a short summary
I really do not think so.
His book was attempting to answer age old questions believers have had through the ages about the problem of evil and why do bad things happen to good people, and so forth. I think he got some things right.
I am baffled by the amount of hostility (or ridicule) the book got a few years ago when evangelicals and other groups were going about the internet bad mouthing it.
Ditto on “The Purpose Driven Life,” the book by Rick Warren. I read that one too and did not think it was hideous, yet I see Christians who act as though it’s worse than the Satanic Bible of Mein Kampf.
(Which is not to say I agree with the “seeker friendly” methodology that got a boost from PDL, but the book itself was mostly harmless and not anywhere near as unbiblical and hideous as some conservative Christians were making it out to be.)
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Ed, what does this “Jesus” say? Then tell me how what “he” says lines up with Scripture.
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Miss Daisy Flower, this book affected people emotionally, and perhaps it struck a cord in your heart. The book of the young boy who said he had been to heaven struck people’s hearts also. Yes, people are searching for answers, but answers that do not line up with Scripture are false answers.
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missdaisyflower,
Why am I dragging up Jesus? Why isn’t people dragging up Jesus? Jesus is God (THE FATHER)in the flesh (THE SON), that is SPIRIT in BODY. It’s all about Jesus. Every bit of it.
God reveals himself thru the person of Jesus Christ, not a black woman, etc. Christ lives in every Christian, whether male of female, black or white. If a black female Christian came to others, that is Jesus, in a black woman.
That is how I would explain it. But, I would be offended if God revealed himself thru any other than Jesus. Jesus is the Christ, and that is the foundation. If ya leave out Jesus, you leave out Christ-ianity.
Furthermore, I do not believe in the trinity. I do not believe in three distinct persons yet one God. I believe in ONE person as ONE God. Some dead Catholics made that decision for all of humanity to believe. I don’t believe in any Catholicism.
And this is how I see it: Father=Spirit Son=BODY…of Christ Holy Spirit=MIND OF CHRIST (SOUL).
We are all made and created in the image of God…spirit/soul/body.
So yes, I am offended by any other depiction of God, other than JC, as you put it.
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Missdaisyflower,
I believe that God the Father IS the same as God the Son. One is Spirit and the other is BODY.
Ed
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Carmen S.
How about this one?
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Visions. Dreams. And there are testimonies to back that up. If you don’t want to believe them, you have that freedom. But as for me…I believe them.
Ed
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Ed, Acts 2:17 is directly referring to day of Pentecost when visitors to Jerusalem heard the gospel in their own language….what did all these things mean? People wanted to know. The answer, for the Apostle Peter, lay in an exposition of a prophecy in Joel, as well as other Old Testament passages. Peter is quoting Joel and telling the people that what they see happening before them is a fulfillment of that prophecy.
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Missdaisyflower:
You had said:
“God the Father is not the same as Jesus”, and you referenced the book of Revelation.
Well, so will I. Revelation 1:8-18.
Verse 8=Alpha and Omega…The Almighty
Verse 11=Alpha and Omega
Verse 18=was dead, now alive
The Almighty God is Jesus.
In addition
John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
So, when you get to heaven, will you ask Jesus to show you the Father? If you do, Jesus will respond the same way that he did to Philip. But then will you ask, “No, really, Jesus, is he out tending the garden? I’ll wait…just point me to a chair.”
Jesus will just shake his head and repeat verse 9 to you.
Ed
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