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Singles seem to be getting the short end of the stick in Christian churches and are often marginalized, shamed, and literally left alone. The Marginalization of Singles in Church – What is the Solution to This?
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Becky, found SSB through someone’s link and responded to an old article on singles: Singles in the Church: Treated with Respect and Dignity?
I want this place to be a “sounding board” where my readers can have a voice and express their concerns and so I asked Becky if I could repost her words in a new article.
Since blogging and hearing the voices of singles, I have been keeping my eyes and ears open to how churches treat them and it is troubling to see the way singles are marginalized, especially when we see that Jesus and Paul and so many key figures in Scripture were singles. Why do we allow this to continue? What can we do to help remedy this situation? ~Julie Anne
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I also am single, served in my church and in a women’s Bible study for years. I don’t mind doing my share of serving but I do resent the fact that others think I have ‘extra time’ to serve and that simply is not true. Since there is no one else to help me at home or help pay for bills I have no choice but to work full-time and take care of the house, car, and everything myself as best as I can.
I did so much obliging and serving that I neglected my own needs for years. The state of my own home reflects this. I became completely worn out and embittered by that.
I finally took some steps down because I was so worn and was too easily angered.
I still serve and help out in various ways just not to the extent as before.
And as for getting help to meet a christian mate, I would really like that but for some reasons churches are reluctant to do this. Anybody have any ideas why that is? We come to church to grow in faith and for spiritual insight in regards to drawing closer to God, looking forward to our heavenly future, but also to find hope for our earthly future which for many would include marriage.
And that brings up another point, have you also noticed that in many churches today there are all these women only Bible studies and men only Bible studies? I feel like they are keeping us separated so that we can’t mingle and get to know a potential christian mate. And that really hurts. beckyg1003
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
I don’t know why churches don’t want to help singles find available potential partners who may be looking as well. I’m still trying to figure out why all of our midweek in-house Bible study groups are only for married couples.
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Interesting. The church I went to after college had a singles group – that’s where I met my husband.
The church we attend now has only one single guy (and he is much older – 40+). He’s tried several online dating sites. He went back to college for another degree. Volunteers with some organizations. He still believes God has someone out there for him. And, he’s in our small group (3 married couples and him). He does serve some in our church, but in our church, just about everyone serves (we are very small and meet at a local elementary school).
I wonder if this is another aspect of the patriarchy movement and the whole thing of dads finding husbands for their daughters and churches not wanting to “interfere” in that process. Maybe it’s been subtly creeping in without people realizing it. Also the whole I Kissed Dating Goodbye thing… maybe churches don’t want to encourage “dating.” (You say “courtship” I say “dating” – tomatoe, tomahtoe.)
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Don’t you know that Singles are just a pool of free labor for all the church grunt work so the Marrieds can stay home Focusing on their Families?
And the only way to get out of it is to get Married (by any means necessary) and be allowed to sit at the grown-ups’ table where all the Singles have to serve YOU. No wonder Christians go for the first warm body that comes along with a Ring and a Date.
To prevent FLESHLY(TM) FORNICATION(TM). Because that’s FLESHLY and WORLDLY, not SPIRITUAL(TM). And since everyone’s either a Jezebel (F) or uncontrollable horndog (M), you have to keep them completely separatee like in Saudi or it’s friggin’ in the riggin’ all over the place.
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Oddly enough, I happened across two other posts on this subject elsewhere this past week.
https://christianpundit.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/want-to-but-cant-the-one-christian-demographic-being-continually-ignored-by-christians-re-marriage/
http://sbethcaplin.com/2014/05/19/god-owes-you-a-husband-and-other-lies-we-tell-single-women/
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Tell us what you really think, Headless U Guy.
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Would rather not say, You are so cute. Much older=40+. I m closer to 60 than I care to say, but still don’t consider myself “much older”. lol
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Brenda… Oops.. I didn’t even think of that… I’m almost 45… I think I meant an “older single.” *blushing profusely*
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I’ve only known about the word “patriarchy” for the past two years. I was listening to a 2009 Sexual Sanity Conference that was held at an OPC church in Michigan. Kevin DeYoung was the main speaker, but they also had Mr. Lynn McClurg ( Vice-President of Covenant Eyes) speak to the men, and his wife, Patty McClurg speak to the women. I found a few things Mrs. McClurg strike me as questionable, and I wrote her. To end my e-mail, I said what I was always saying two years ago…”So, how does a 50plus single Christian woman find a husband?” I was hoping that churches would sympatize and help the singles who were past their college years.
Her reply: How does an over 50 year-old woman find a husband? Biblically, she doesn’t. A woman who is past childbearing age should teach the younger women how to love their husbands.
I wrote the pastor of the OPC church, who was the first to inform me that there exists in the reformed tradition ( but not limited to) a group of overbearing patriarchy. He didn’t agree with them, and assured me that marriage for companionship was biblical.
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All that and more. Try being a single parent – because you know, even though you are playing dad and mom, handling the obligations of both sides, working, showing the love of Christ in the community, fixing broken things, mending broken hearts, kissing boo boos, leading Bible reading and devotionals in the home, burning the candle at both ends, you had BETTER be serving the LOCAL Body or you are a self serving, life sucking member – you might even be regenerate. Oh, and although everyone hopes you will marry, do not, I repeat, do not, take time out to pursue that because if you have an ounce of enjoyment you will not be living in reverent piety. You will remain under heavy scrutiny for every breath you take until you marry the person you cannot manage to spend time with – or meet for that matter. At some point I may develop a sense of humor over all this. Sometimes for all the good it can do, it feels like the church is killing me. If it wasn’t for Jesus, the thread I am barely hanging onto would snap.
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I really do think the whole patrirarchy/comp focus of the last 20 or so years is the biggest reason this has become so complicated. Women are objectified as wombs or sex objects to fulfill the mans vision or whatever.
And along with that thinking comes even more thinking that if you go out for coffee it is to see if you are potential marriage material. It is ridiculous. They have created a wedge between the sexes with all of this.
I managed to stay clear of women’s ministries as both single and married. Could not stand them. Total fluff.
At this point I cannot recommend evangelical men because they have been so indoctrinated concerning women. And I just don’t see church as the place where you are going to meet someone anymore. Too factionalized with marriage idolatry and you have to fit into the boxes they have created for your age and sex.
What do you enjoy doing? Find a group or class and get involved doing what you love. You might meet a friend, too. Make a life and live it!!
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“Her reply: How does an over 50 year-old woman find a husband? Biblically, she doesn’t. A woman who is past childbearing age should teach the younger women how to love their husbands.”
This response is insulting and devaluing. Good riddence to such thinking. Run from it. I wish I had been there….I have a good response.
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one,
Don’t get me started on the single mom situation in most churches. They are todays equivalent to the widow/orphan commands in scripture (because of 1st Century Codes) but are often treated the exact opposite of those commands.
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Lydia, I have actually heard the widow/orphan thing preached. But in practice, there is a heavy price to be paid.
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Dear Christian Single,
I HEAR your pain. I became single again at 39 after a devastatingly abusive and sexless marriage (15 years). I wanted nothing more than to meet fun, emotionally available, single Christian men men about my age. Wanting to do what was right and serve God, I began visiting church singles ministries. Some comedy and horror stories resulted, but I won’t go into details here. The available men in their 40s were available for a reason: most were never married, unattractive without the social skills or confidence to pursue a fit, educated, attractive (looking much younger than 39) woman–and I had three precious daughters to boot. I befriended and dated a few. More comedy and horror stories. One guy was so bad I didn’t even know I was on a date–I was just being nice going to lunch with him. He was so circumspect about his intentions and weird that I thought he was trying to recruit me into his Amway. Or the men were divorced and it was pretty obvious right away why; they were controlling/angry/rigid/OCPD some or all. Having had plenty of experience with that, I wanted no part of it.
So, here are some of the reasons that the churches aren’t helping you meet a mate:
1. They are controlling. They are quite fearful you are actually going to be attracted to someone and sleep with him. Worrying about it practically keeps them awake at night. They sleep much more comfortably knowing that, even though your are still alone, that you are not anywhere near in a position to be tempted to sin. They are the bedroom police. I’m not saying anything inappropriate would happen, but keeping you out of that messy attraction zone of new relationships is the most certain way they can guarantee that everyone in their church is, sexually speaking, squeaky clean. They do this by teaching about “purity” in a way that defies the realities of the psychology and biology of attraction. They do this by just plain being patriarchal, so keeping you as a woman dressing, acting, spending your time in certain ways; ways that don’t send “I’m available and open to a relationship” signals. They do this by juvenilizing you, which is particularly bad if you are an older single–advising you in a patronizing way about men, reminding you about purity more than showing concern for your struggles being alone, telling you to “be careful” dating and making you fearful of it. See “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” if you want to know more, but then also try to applying the message to older singles.
2. Pop-psychology. The notion that we should be completely self-sufficient with out a partner and that if we need or even crave one there is something wrong with us is a derivative of a similar belief propagated by pop-psychology. This puts you in a position of feeling spiritually insufficient, holding you to a standard that most of the people around you are not having to meet because they are married. Now the problem is YOU, not them for being too chicken to introduce you to single men they know or to start a viable, vibrant singles ministry at the church. They forget that God made us for relationships, and last I checked an anatomy textbook, certain kinds of relationships are beautifully and intricately designed. Suffering is a NORMAL human result of the lack of intimacy of all kinds, but YOU are supposed to read your bible and pray more to overcome it. You could devote that much energy to finding a mate, probably and be more successful.
3. The feminization of the church. There is a book called Why Men Hate Church. Church has ceased to be a place were truly manly men want to be. Truly manly men are the ones with the qualities, testosterone and drive to pursue a woman in a way that she will understand CLEARLY that she is being pursued. (All of these bullet points I am making are intertwined.) This serves to assuage their fears noted in #1. Without dominant, manly men, there is no fear of any inadvertent signs of physical attraction in the community. Kudos to the manly men who love God and are sticking it out–please find ways to make church a place that speaks to men like you (not mixed martial arts, though, please).
4. Overriding the reality of biology with “biblical” notions of courtship. Let’s face it, men and women who are healthy are looking for the same things. They are ingrained by the biology of survival of the species. Men are looking for young, healthy women with certain physical characteristics that indicate good mental health, physical health and fertility whether they “know” it or not. Women are looking for certain characteristics in men as well, both physical and personality, that indicate good prospects for survival of themselves and any children they produce. Singles in a culture where they are not allowed to send the normal subtle “signals” (no I don’t mean low-cut dresses and pick up lines; I mean eye contact, flirtatious laughter, adorning oneself with intriguing jewelry or clothing without being immodest, a sexy, stylish hairstyle–how immodest can that be?) have no idea if anyone is attracted and have no way of letting anyone know. Churches do this by making everyone so hyper-vigilant about modesty and purity and showing any interest that they spend more time worrying about and blocking any signals they send out than just relaxing and getting to know members of the opposite sex. In short, they make everyone so self-conscious that they can not authentically start romantic relationships.
5. E Harmony and Christian Mingle. I have a theory. I have read many times that the more the government has done for the poor in terms of welfare and programs, the less and less the church has done for the poor. I mean, why use precious church resources $$ when the government is there to do it? So why should the church be in the business of helping singles marry when there are internet dating sites? What church really wants to be part of that messy relationship business anyway? (I am not opposed to internet dating…but it is inferior to meeting people face to face.) If the church is not involved in singles meeting and attracting one another, they are leaving busy singles in the terrible position of having almost nowhere but the internet to turn.
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This is not so much a solution as a story…I recently left the church where I served, singly, for twenty-two years. I’d never really thought about my role in terms of my singleness; I was just trying to serve.
But that was before there was a pastoral change, and the new guy called me an ungodly unrepentant sinner and fired me from my long-time volunteer church position. Because his wife claimed (without any proof) that I had offended her in a private conversation.
Out of about sixty married women in the church, only four offered any support. The rest supported the pastor in his actions, even to the point of publicly affirming them! I was shunned, smeared, talked about. I mean, these are women for whose children I wrote college recommendation letters (I am considerably more educated than most of the women, which is likely part of the problem). Taught them to sing. Arranged flowers for their weddings. Threw baby showers. Hosted them in my home.
One of the reasons a couple of women gave me for their lack of support was that they didn’t want to hurt the pastor’s wife and children.
You see, it was easy to throw me, the single, under the bus…no collateral damage! Easy to pick losing one person over losing eight, no matter the rightness or wrongness of the issue itself. After all, what is the loss of one single person to a church? What is their value? My church said emphatically “none”.
I will be a long time healing from these women, who I once considered sisters in Christ. And I will probably never feel comfortable as a single in church again. I’ll always know how easy it is to throw me away.
But mostly I’m sorry that by their public acceptance of my treatment, they ultimately taught their daughters that it was ok for a woman, any woman, single or not, to be treated that way in church.
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Easy to throw the single person under the bus. Indeed. Why lose face when you can do that? I’ve lost so many in the same way. I’m so sorry. PS: I bet you’re attractive. That will ruin you as a single in the church.
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Ugh, L.J., your story makes me sick. That’s exactly the kind if marginalization I’m talking about, as if singles are 2nd class citizens. I’m so sorry!
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Thanks oneh20…I hope I’m attractive but I think ultimately it had more to do with the well-educated, world-traveled, published author bit. In hindsight I was doomed, wasn’t I? Strange as it sounds, though, I had genuinely thought I was well-liked. Certainly they were glad to accept my labor on their behalf all those years! But when they saw their chance to take me down, they were like a pack of she-wolves.
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Becky, What an eye-opening piece. I think those of us who have been married a while, forget about how poorly singles can be treated at church. I remember that my husband and I weren’t really considered a family until we had a child. The major double standard was when I was told by the women in my B.S. that I shouldn’t use fertility treatments, but to “trust God” alone to get pregnant. I took a breath and asked each woman if they used birth control and each one said yes. So I told them that they didn’t trust God with their fertility!!!
It is normal to want a life partner, yet the church does nothing to encourage single adults to be comfortable in looking for a partner. Unfortunately, many churches expect their members to play certain roles (submissive wife, authoritative husband, obedient children, meek, unassertive single women, and sinless super- dominent single men). Diversity is frowned upon and uniformity is worshipped. How is it possible to meet someone when you have to submerge your unique personality? Also singles seem to be required to serve others (other people’s kids), but who serves them? I would love to hear more on this topic. If only to help long-time marrieds like me understand the struggles of singles and how marrieds can serve them!! I look forward to reading other’s comments.
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This sounds like a plot for porn; two characters meet for coffee (or any reason) and as they approach each other within a certain critical range, it inevitably leads to meat in motion. The only difference is in Christianese it’s called “Marriage” instead of “Getting Some” and there’s a ring and ceremony involved, but the underlying assumptions and dynamics are the same.
I long ago concluded Christians are just as messed-up sexually as everyone else, just in a different (and usually opposite) direction.
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This is a timely topic. Even though I am familiar with the mighty men of the Gospel Coalition, I hadn’t heard of Joe Carter until he threatened to sue you a few days ago. On a lark, I checked his tweets this am and he raised the issue of how vital singles are in the life of the church. My response was something like, you mean like how women are vital in the life of the church? I ended with, Don’t believe what leaders say, believe what they do. That would be my two cents worth. If you walk into a church where 1/3 of the space is taken up by one man, who monopolizes 90% of the time, and the “liturgy” (literally, “the work of the people”) is performed by a few other men, walk out. Don’t even bother listening to what they say; you have already seen what they do.
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What a great response, Ann.
Yes, I’d love to hear more, too.
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give me about 2 hours and i’ll be back with a longer comment. the sad reality is that anybody who doesn’t fit in the ideal nuclear family with 2.5 kids and two parents still in the first marriage is going to find themselves shoved to back of all consciousness within most churches. i flat out refused to attend a church in my current hometown after the congregation treated me for being a single disabled woman. no thanks.
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That was a great response, jkpvarin.
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I look forward to reading your comment, Mandy.
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“a sexy, stylish hairstyle”
Some of us men wish we still had the ability to have a hairstyle of any kind!
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I quit going to church years ago so haven’t experienced this, but from reading all these blogs I am not surprised that young women are left out. I mean think about this. Young men are taught that women are evil, dirty, scheming sluts that will seduce them away from your faith by wearing shorts in public. Young women are taught that all men will rape them on the spot if they are alone. I don’t think there is any way young men and women can meet and build a healthy relationship in this environment.
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I attend a church where we are regularly told that “marriage matters now” – in fact, that’s the name of one of the church’s most visible ministries. As for us singles, we don’t seem to matter much at all. My church, like many others in our area, takes the default position of outsourcing singles ministry to a local megachurch. And no, I don’t attend a patriarchal church as two of the clergy on our staff are female.
Every now and then singles get some mention in Sunday services. One of those rare moments occurred earlier this spring when 1 Corinthians 7 was the focus of several sermons. One of the female clergy, who’s single by divorce, preached the message when it came to singles. For the most part, her message was good until she began emphasizing the topic of celibacy, which is the path she’s chosen. I respect her choice, but what about those of us who still hold out some faint hope for marriage?
One thing she emphasized in her sermon which was good was suggesting that married couples invite singles into their homes for fellowship, even dinner. Except I’ve received no such invitations since that sermon; last month I spent yet another Easter Sunday afternoon alone.
I deal with one extra difficulty in finding fellowship opportunities besides singleness. I work evening shift at a hospital during the week and also work some weekends. I also work most holidays, and I’ll be working on Monday while many of you will enjoy a day off. Most fellowship activities at my church are scheduled for those who work 8-5 Monday through Friday or a similar schedule.
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I’d like to share one more thought before calling it a night. Some of the other commenters mentioned difficulties they’ve had with older single men. Those difficulties can go both ways.
Almost three years ago somebody at my church set me up on a date with a single Christian female friend of hers. Sadly, it didn’t take long into our date to figure out the gal had some serious issues and wasn’t a candidate for a healthy relationship.
About a year after that, another woman went to one of the clergy in my church and accused me of misconduct. I was summoned to a meeting to explain myself. I had done nothing wrong and nothing happened in the end. However, a single man accused of misconduct can not only be considered guilty until proven innocent, he can sometimes be presumed guilty after being proven innocent. In recent months my accuser has resumed attending a monthly service at my church where I typically serve as an usher. I feel as though I’ve got the Sword of Damocles hanging over me.
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nmgirl,
Who is teaching women are evil, dirly scheming sluts that will seduce young men away from his faith or cautioning their daughters that being alone will make them vulnerable of rape?
(although human trafficking is a concern of mine which has become recognized as a global problem)
Otherwise this sounds more like an over-protective parents trying to keep their sons and daughters from marrying someone outside a certain Doctrine that they don’t embrace.
I’m 54 and that is a new one to me, My wife and I both endured spiritual abuse for not conforming to Hyper Theologies who very well may embrace Patriarchy Movement. (which has more to do with chauvinism).
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Singleman, That is unfair. I am a now divorced Christian woman who has been through abusive relationships since childhood. That has left me cursed. I thought the curse was over after my rescue from abuse, but now it seems that many feel I brought it on myself. I’m thinking that age 2 I didn’t ask to be abused. I understand being damaged goods. Neither of us did anything wrong, yet you are being watched.
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One thing I’ve noticed, and this isn’t a complaint that has anything to do with control, and may be the result of a personal preference. One singles ministry nearby (at a church where I could make complaints about control, but I don’t think the singles ministry is as bad) is primarily women. To the point where they have, I think as a result of the demographic, shifted their emphasis and are now also saying that it’s a great way to make more friends. Additionally, many if not most of their events focus on healthy relationships, friendships, etc in ways that could be applied to romantic or platonic relationships.
None of this is really a problem and I’m sure it’s doing some good. Where it falls short for me (and for other single friends) is in the assumption that because you are single, you struggle with relating to people. I know many of the people who attend these events probably do benefit from brushing up on some social skills and emotional intelligence. But as a single woman, this is not an area (or THE area) where I have the greatest need. I can relate well to others and am pretty sociable. I deal with people all day long at work, and I’m sure many other singles do as well. I have great friends and a supportive family. There is no benefit for me to attend the “singles” event over other events because honestly, other events address my needs and interests better.
I had another single friend who attended a singles group that I think was trying to become a cult in order to make the leader some money (she isn’t attending any longer, fortunately). It evolved from socializing to its own “church service” to “if you’re on the leadership team, you can’t date.” These were people in their 30s and 40s, who joined the singles group because it was a singles group and their church was lacking in this area. That is crazy. You can’t disallow dating and honestly, in a singles group, I would think you would encourage it.
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Julie Anne,
What a great topic, and much needed. Here are a few random comments:
1. Why don’t churches connect singles? Because they’ve been burned by it. They HAVE connected people and watched the relationship blow up and have gotten blamed. There are no magic formulas. Not even blind dates. There’s no substitute for two people getting to be friends and investing in each others’ life and simply being willing to be vulnerable and take the risk.
2. What do we know about love and marriage? Ignore the pop-psychology articles and the trade books. There really are good academic studies about what makes people fall in love. If you are analytic, please read the book Falling in Love: Why We Choose the Loves We Choose
3. White Christians are more marginalized by singleness than Black or Hispanic Christians It is definitely a “class system” in the white church. If you aren’t married and you don’t have much money or a college education (4-year college degree), you are simply not at the top level of respectability. See the study (free PDF) done by University of Virginia and Johns Hopkins, “No Money, No Honey, No Church.”
Finally, I’m a big believer in spreading love to everyone regardless of age, sex, or any other factor. Love and generosity always come back around.
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Singleman, I know your church. I go there too. So sorry about how the sexy hair comment landed. I was thinking women. Be encouraged, my new husband (5 years now) was completely bald when I met him. Also, you are very right about *some* single women. I got a real eye opener when more than once I attended secular dating and singles events at local bars and met men who would eventually reveal that they attend Blabla Mega Bible Church in our area. When I asked why they were at the bar they said that there were no women there they wanted to meet at church, they had tried that. Usually it was an attractive available guy. They were being nice but in a round about ways they indicated that the women at the singles meetings were not attractive or interesting enough for them. I dated plenty of men and felt I had to apologize for the psycho women they went out with before me. I couldn’t believe how easily these women were triggered and how crazy they behaved.
BrendaR, as a formerly abused girl and woman and now a Christian life coach, it put a dagger in me to hear you say you are damaged goods. You are not. That is just a story that your mind is believing based on “evidence. ” It is not true. You can be restored to wholeness. If you live near the Washington DC area, The Falls Church Anglican has a powerful inner healing prayer ministry that is getting amazing results. If not, look into Heartsync prayer model and other Christian inner healing curricula. I am not as familiar with Life Model and Theophostic. I don’t know enough to recommend those but others I know have good testimonies. Praying for you!!!
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One of the earlier commenters (Cindy K) added a link to this fantastic blog post by “Christian Pundit”:
https://christianpundit.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/want-to-but-cant-the-one-christian-demographic-being-continually-ignored-by-christians-re-marriage/
February 8, 2013
Want To But Can’t – The One Christian Demographic Being Continually Ignored by Christians Re: Marriage
My comments:
The Church cannot get its mind around the simple fact that the marriage rate has dropped and is no longer guaranteed as it was in the 1960’s-1980’s. As the mother of 20-somethings, I repeatedly tell them what WHAT they do with the gifts and talents God gave them is far more important than whether or not they marry.
As a Christian who divorced many many years ago, I have a unique perspective. I’ve lived in both worlds. There’s no doubt I used to “fit” better in my home church when I was married. But the truth is that I am a far more effective Christian as a single than I was as a married. As a married person I was focused solely on my family to the exclusion of others. Now my life is so much richer and fuller. I have far more friends, more effective ministry, and I feel my life is more meaningful.
I strongly recommend leaving marriage-idolizing churches and finding a more singles-accepting church elsewhere. I recently found a new church where I’m not judged for being single. I serve in a leadership role. What a breath of fresh air. I would encourage others to do the same. Even if you have to move to a slightly more “liberal” church, it’s worth it. No point in fighting city hall, just vote with your feet.
The challenge in Christianity is huge because it’s tough to change hearts and minds. There’s a snobbery that married Christians have (I had it when I was married). Paradigm changes at this level take years, and if we keep speaking up, we will change the church’s mindset eventually.
I would strongly recommend that all Christian singles read the landmark book by Harvard Ph.D. Dr. Bella DePaulo, Singled Out. It breaks through all of the myths of lifelong singleness. Christians and churches perpetuate these horrid myths. If you don’t have time to read DePaulo’s excellent book, do an online search for her name and “myths of singleness.” She has a lot of articles and lists on the web.
There’s no need to apologize for wanting to marry (or remarry), but demographics are strongly against us. There’s no point in taking any personal blame or shame for not being married.
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“So sorry about how the sexy hair comment landed.”
No worries, Lisa. I wasn’t offended. I was simply trying to inject some humor into a very serious discussion.
As for my church, I’m grateful for it despite the problems I mentioned. I know that I’ll get solid teaching without the spiritual control and strange occurrences that marked my previous church (long story, and now’s not the time to discuss it).
Speaking of church, I’d better stop typing and start getting ready so that I can be on time for the 11:00 service.
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Good topic, I’ll apologise in advance for any rambling in the following.
What I’ve always found the most difficult thing about being single in the church is that we don’t get the support that gets shown to people when they get married or have a baby*. Get married? People buy you presents and give you lots of support in the lead-up and after the wedding. Have a baby? People buy you presents, bring you meals, help clean up around the house. Sick family member? People help with meals, cleaning up around the house, getting to appointments, etc. Right now I’m single and unemployed, living off savings, not sure how long I can do that financially, and nobody offers any support, either in terms of giving me things or just talking to me, checking how I’m going, offering to meet up for coffee so that I’m not just sitting in the house all day feeling sorry for myself. When you’re single and struggling, you feel completely unnoticed.
Speaking about actually trying to find a relationship, there are barriers churches tend to have. One thing I’ve noticed that churches are often really bad about is how cliquey they are. People have their groups and they talk to those people almost exclusively, and if you’re a single woman and there aren’t any single men in your clique well, tough luck. And that’s if you get into the crowd. I’ve been at a church for 18 months and while I’m getting to know who people are, I still often feel like an outsider. It’s one of those services where most people have been there for years, they all went through youth group together or were youth group leaders, and there are in-jokes that they all know but I don’t. And the references and jokes are sometimes in sermons. Now I know who people are a bit when the minister gives a sermon illustration about Jim doing something that’s a very ‘Jim’ thing to do I at least have an idea who he’s talking about, but it’s not exactly welcoming to outsiders. And so I’ve been there a while but I don’t really know if particular guys are single or not, and I don’t know anyone well enough to try and broach that topic (and doesn’t that feel a bit high school? “Hey Jenny, can you ask Johnny if he likes me?”). So better to say nothing. This church also tends to be a bit gender segregated. It’s not an enforced thing, it’s just guys generally talk to guys, and girls to girls, so I can’t exactly subtly insert myself into a conversation Johnny is having in the hopes that he’ll then talk to me and then ask me out. It doesn’t help that I’m self-conscious – I don’t need to be taught how to talk to people like Sarah’s example seemed to be, but I’m not good at starting up a conversation. Once someone talks to me I’m fine, it’s the initiating that I dislike. The other thing about meeting someone at church is how much of a public spectacle it is. You’re in a room with lots of other people (my church service is generally about 120 people) where it’s not exactly easy to have that conversation with Johnny that might lead to being asked out without having dozens of people looking on which, again, is not something I’m particularly comfortable with. So I think while churches might be places that have lots of single people in them, they tend to also have lots of barriers to relationships developing.
*I know not every church gives support to people when they marry/have babies/are sick, but the churches I’ve been to have always been strong in those ministries and lacking in anything similar for single people.
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Anonymous2,
Thank you for this info about DePaulo’s book/articles.
And to everyone else, I’m so sorry that you’ve been treated this way, though I’m not surprised. It echoes what I’ve heard from others, and it’s awful. Only one church that I know had none of these problems — but that was in the Gothard cult where they practically arranged marriages my micromanaging everyone.
Reading these comments about marriage idolizing churches, I relate as a married woman with no children. I find it interesting that, like single women are often blamed for singleness, that no one ever targeted my husband to harass him on the subject. It has been horribly painful, and I’m so grateful to have finally aged out of the childbearing set. I know what it is to be a Pariah in these circles, and it can be soul-crushing.
I once lead a guy in his twenties to the Lord, and he was interested in settling down. I recommended the largest church in the area that had an active singles program. That guy went to one singles event, and it was run by a pastor there who had recently married. That perv pastor asked this guy to come home with him after singles night to engage in some sexual something or other with his wife (I wouldn’t let the guy tell me more). I was mortified, so was this baby Christian, and…need I say more?
I also have single friends in their 50s, and they started going to big mega church singles groups at different Pentecostal churches. All of them quit because the women were pressured for sex and the men said it was really depressing because everything seemed scripted and people were uptight. One of these women started dating a guy she met at the seniors meeting, and he asked her to go to a hotel with him while on their third date.
Everyone I know does better outside of the church, and some have had luck with non-Christian dating services. The men I’ve talked to say that the women they meet through Christian Mingle “only want to hook up” or are quite interested in sex. That’s certainly not an accurate cross-section of everyone, and I know that. It’s just sad.
So I always think that if I have the opportunity to witness to someone who is single, per my track record, I wouldn’t want to recommend a church, let alone one with a singles group. 😉
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The Marginalization of Singles in Church – What is the Solution to This? All I can think of is talk to other singles in the church, ask them if they’ll go with you to meet with the minister, set up a meeting (whether you go alone or with others), and discuss your concerns. It may be because he’s married and only has married friends (as many marrieds do), he’s clueless. Clue him in. Tell him what it’s like for singles there. If things don’t change, leave that church. As a member of the Body, you shouldn’t be made to feel you’re not worthy. It’s a dysfunctional church.
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Lisa, Thank you for your response and support. I live in Mid Michigan. After living without an abusive husband for a year now, I personally have begun to have peace in my life. I don’t feel like I am damaged goods any longer, but some members of the church seem to look at me that way and let me know that I should remain single. I did tell myself that lie for a very long time, that I must have done something to deserve the treatment that I went through even as a child, but don’t do it anymore. I had a very wonderful Christian counselor who helped me see that the problem was not just me, it was the men in my life. I had to change the way I saw me. How God saw me. Looking to God for strength and replacing the lies with God loves me just as I am, even when I fail.
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In my experience, Marrieds only associate with other Marrieds leaving Singles to associate with other Singles in quarantine. Effective upon saying “I Do”.
I’m the only one of the Cal Poly Gang who never married — First Bob & Nancy, then Jim & Cindy, then Paul & Janet — even Ted the Locksmith (who was as annoying as Ned Flanders and for much the same reason) got hitched. (I looked to be next in line, but Ann ended up dumping me.) And when they did, they ended up Focusing on their Families to the point where contact with The Single (Me) ended up drifting and finally ceasing.
One of my writing partners (the burned-out preacher-man) is married and he’s the only one I know who will actually associate with singles like me and my other writing partner.
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Cindy K, This is all so disturbing. It doesn’t sound like there is a better caliber of people at a singles night at a church than at a bar. I don’t go to bars and their are very few single men in my church. There are plenty of single women. Most that I know are happy staying single. I have to wonder about what is being taught in churches where a man would suggest a hotel after the 3rd date.
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I meant to get back here last night but I might have fallen asleep. 🙂 It has been my experience where I live that singles groups, when they do exist, are geared towards young 20-somethings. Once you cross about 25-26, they encourage you to move on and consider that maybe you are called to singleness/celibacy. Also, singles of both genders are “encouraged” to give as much time as possible to volunteer/serve at the church so that the married couples and parents may have a break. For over half of my life I spent time working in the church nursery, children’s church and in the kitchen. For a period of about five years, I can’t recall attending Sunday School or most services at all due to my “needed service” in the nursery. I love children but at the same time I also longed for the same opportunity to dig deep into the Scriptures and engage in healthy debate. I felt like I got lost in the background due to my service, that I could have and should have been a paid worker. In some ways my disabilities are blessings because I finally had a visible excuse to say “no thank you don’t bother asking”.
Addressing the concern of the men’s and women’s only Bible studies, the excuse I have been given is that greater honesty and discussion can be gained without the other gender around. In other words, the women can remind each other to be sweet and submissive while the guys can focus on being macho manly men. My response to that is “horse hockey”. I learned so much from my mixed gender Bible study groups while in college. We challenged each other on a regular basis and I grew a lot in my faith. I felt in women-only groups we were too concerned with not saying something controversial or that might hurt feelings while the guys just shared what they wanted to. Also the women’s groups were more likely to focus on “fluff” Bible studies or things that focused on “Biblical womanhood” instead of just reading our Bibles and growing as Christians. My belief in Christ has nothing to do with the fact that I am missing a Y chromosome.
One of the churches I visited in town when we first moved here four years ago was especially hostile towards me as a disabled single woman. I was told point blank to leave the eligible men alone as they needed somebody better than me. The discrimination I face in a church is far worse than I deal with out in the secular world. All they can see is that I am visibly not perfect and my limitations.
Although I am getting married in 2.5 weeks, I will not forget what I went through as a single person in church. I hope to use those experiences to make me a better person and more loving. I know that my fiance and I still won’t fit in to the ideal church family for many reasons and that is still okay with me. After so many years of not fitting in, I don’t know how to react to being “normal”.
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Yes, Headless Unicorn Guy. That is exactly the way it is. And then if a marriage doesn’t make it those people will find themselves no longer being invited to events because they are no longer married. You are bumped back down to the singles group, which has grown smaller because those people have gotten married. The majority of singles at my church are 80+ (Mostly women) or below 25. I’m 57. I seem to have more in common with the 80 year olds, but would like to make friends that are more in my age bracket. I’m not interested in the online dating sites. They are just scary. There was a woman killed in my area after a date that she met online last year. Certainly that could happen by other means of meeting, but between the murders, rapes and great number of those who just want to “hook up”. I would rather remain single than take the risk.
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@BrendaR:
Might not have anything to do what’s being taught in that church. Might just be a predator who’s found a prey-rich environment. There’s Web essays as to why sociopaths and predators would be attracted to church environments, and that should hold for more than the Pastor’s position on top.
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@Mandy:
Like I said up top, Singles become nothing more than an available pool of Free labor so the Marrieds can stay home Focusing on their Families. (And if they DO marry and are allowed to sit with the other grown-ups, that diminshes the amount of Free labor available…)
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@Mandy:
Make sure you don’t forget, Mandy. On the average, after being married for two years, a Married forgets completely what it was like to be Single. In their head, they have ALWAYS been Marrieds, like they were Born That Way.
“I Got Mine,
I Got Mine,
I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
Now that I Got Mine…”
— Glenn Frye
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Mandy, I have been trying to figure out for several decades what “Normal” really is. As a younger woman I was physically able to do many things that I can no longer do. over the last 15 years or so, that is no longer true. MS has taken much of my ability from me. I still work full time, but beyond that I don’t have the strength of do much work in the church. I am so glad to hear that you will be married soon. There are good men out there who aren’t looking for a physically perfect woman. The fact that you were told to leave the eligible men alone is a blemish on the church.
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I have no idea why, but every third comment today has gone into moderation. (This is what happens when J.A. goes out of town!) If your comment doesn’t show up right away, it will eventually. They’re popping up by order of time, so it might be worth your while if following here to scroll back up through them to read ones you may have missed.
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Don’t know how closely this relates to the subject, but we had another mass murder/suicide rampage near Santa Barbara. Before the Gun Control Chorus drowns out all other coverage (“What a chance to Advance MY Agenda!”), here’s a news item on the guy’s stated motivations — he left a long suicide note/Manifesto:
http://news.yahoo.com/suspect-california-rampage-blamed-aloof-women-081618824.html
Apparently he was pissed off at being a 22-year-old virgin and that no woman was ever interested in him. Don’t know if it’d get this far in the Christianese Bubble, but I’m sure you find lesser versions of the same dynamic (blaming the women for not finding you attractive) all over the place.
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At 5:37 today Lisa mentions attending singles events at local bars and meeting men who would eventually reveal that they attend Blabla Mega Bible Church. Before I finally quit participating in institutionalized “church” I would occasionally give offense by suggesting that a bar would likely be a better place than church to find the kind of fellowship we are told is conveyed by the Greek word kiononia.
This lack of fellowship is no doubt most noticeable as to unmarried singles. However, I strongly suspect that church is also failing those who I will refer to as married singles. Although I just now thought of the term married singles (a Google search tells me others have used it), I first noticed the phenomenon when I attended a small church where most of the participants in evening Bible studies were women, both married and single. My evidence for the fact that many, maybe most, of the married women participants were effectively single is that they would with some frequency wish to share information which, though non-sexual, was still so intimate that it can only be supposed that they were profoundly starved at an emotional level. (As the discussion leader I would attempt to urge discretion, often to little avail.)
Sadly, I find it much easier to identify problems than to suggest solutions. Still, I suggest that church ought to be a place where the ability to better relate to people at an appropriate level, both within and outside marriage, could be acquired through opportunities to participate in actual fellowship–fellowship from which nobody was excluded by reason of their marital status. Listening to sermons and participating in structured opportunities for the acquisition of head knowledge just don’t cut it. Regular opportunities for meaningful, open-to-all fellowship would not be the complete solution to the challenges associated with unmarried and married singleness. However, surely such an emphasis on fellowship would be more productive than all the standard programs and activities designed to promote the church as an institution–and to provide the “pastor” with a steady stream of narcissistic supplies.
I would be concerned that the typical narcissistic pastor isn’t sufficiently mature, competent or safe to minister on a personal level to opposite sex members of a congregation. On the other hand, it is distressing to think that any given bartender is probably more competent to minister to people’s hearts than the typical modern “pastor.” My advance apologies to those pastors, including those who participate here, who do not deserve to be subjected to such criticisms.
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Yesterday (May 24) at 1:11 L.J. speaks of having been hounded by a “pastor” at the instigation of the “pastor’s” wife. I strongly suspect that the “pastor’s” behavior had given his wife due cause to view single women, such as L.J., through jealous eyes. For the “pastor” to have accused L.J. of being an ungodly unrepentant sinner definitely has the look and feel of a “pastor” who was projecting his own characterological flaws on a helpless victim. Maybe it was sexist (or not), but where I grew up a man who picked on a woman was called a coward.
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I think there is just as much confusion and dysfunction around dating and sex among Christians as in any group of people. A friend of mine was widowed a few years ago. After about a year, a widower in her church, a nice man she had known as a fellow church member for years, asked her out on a date. It was her first date in more than thirty years and she was nervous and not sure if she was ready but she went. At first, all went well and she had a good time, but instead of just saying good night at the end of the date when she did not invite him in, he told her he wanted sex. After she refused, he asked her if she was a lesbian. Apparently he could think of no other reason why my friend would refuse sex on a first date. He later apologized to her for being such a jerk, but the experience was pretty upsetting and shocking for my friend.
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@Mark
MAY 24, 2014 @ 10:17 PM
Why do you think these religious groups put so much emphasis on courting and purity? Why do parents have to approve who a girl or boy marries? This is not the nineteenth century. Preventing boys and girls from interacting like normal human beings is damaging.
And yes, premarital sex and pregnancy can be damaging but it doesn’t have to be.
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Marsha (May 25, 9:56 am) —
Some of the women are just as bad. A coworker who ventured into online dating started corresponding with a 50- to 60-year-old Christian woman who has a highly visible public position and is active in her church. She told him up front she believed in sex on the first date. He was so shocked, he told me about it. He continued dating her.
They were married in record time.
My cynical side says: So much for real soul-to-soul connection…
I guess a lot of people don’t want much out of marriage.
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I don’t know if things have changed, but when I was younger (in the ’80’s) there was a lot of emphasis on sexual purity for non-marrieds under 25 or so. I have never ever heard anything about how “older” singles, whether never-married, divorced, or widowed are to deal with their sexuality. I image having a long term sexual relationship for 10 or 15 years with a former spouse would complicate life choices. How does a person who has had a rich, satisfying sexual relationship in the past learn to trust after being betrayed? How does a widow/widower deal with celibacy or even just sleeping alone after a partner of 20 years dies? Are the “rules” different for an 18 year old virgin verses a 48 year old divorcee? Any thoughts?
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Why do we allow this to continue?
Many evangelical churches believe the family is under attack, and that is indeed correct. However, instead of addressing the root causes of that attack, many churches have instead chosen to exalt families and children at the expense of singles. They also exhort singles to marry, though only in the manner they prescribe (i.e. don’t date, court, and men must go through the woman’s father or some other male authority figure before they can do so) . As other commenters have noted, some churches view singles mostly as their cheap and easy labor pool.
Let’s also consider modern evangelical expectations for their ideal pastor candidates. Seriously, when was the last time anyone here attended a Protestant church, especially an evangelical congregation, led by an unmarried senior pastor? The last time I did so was during my college days, but that pastor married toward the end of my time there.
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Singleman,
I find that all special interest groups, including Evangelicals (of which I am one), love to tell themselves they are “under attack.” It allows them to dehumanize those who don’t fit in their mold (those selfish singles who refuse to marry) and make demeaning holier-than-thou sermons that laud marriage and denigrate singleness.
In the first two centuries of the early church, REAL Christians didn’t marry. And those who did were seen as weak, lustful backsliders. Now we’ve got a 180 degree turnabout.
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What can we do to help remedy this situation?
I don’t have all the answers, but I’ll share a few suggestions. First of all, let’s stop Balkanizing the church by dividing it up into various demographic groups. This doesn’t mean we don’t have ministries to those groups. Yes, married couples need support and encouragement. Praise God for those churches, including mine, which have such ministries. The same holds true for men’s, women’s and singles ministries. However, it means we come back together as a church family once those teaching and ministry sessions are done. Before I took my present job and had to stop attending due to my work schedule, I was part of a small group where one’s gender, age or marital status didn’t matter. Sadly, that was more of an exception than the rule among my church’s small groups.
Let’s also stop exalting marriage over singleness in the church. Marriage should be a calling, not an idol. Nor should marriage be a requirement for church leadership positions, whether pastor, elder, deacon or some other office. Some churches are using 1 Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6 as reasons to disqualify singles from leadership when it appears they were written to instead disqualify polygamists. Put another way, why would Paul urge churches to adopt standards which would disqualify him, much less Jesus, from serving in a leadership capacity?
Some singles would like to get married someday. What can we do to help them without getting into legalism? And if a single person doesn’t want to or feel ready to marry yet, we shouldn’t browbeat them. Some singles may need help or coaching on overcoming social awkwardness, past hurts or even abuse. What are we doing to make that help available?
I hope I’ve made some sense, and I’d welcome other ideas as well.
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That started in the Reformation Wars, when whether your clergy was married or single announced Whose Side You Were On. Since Catholic clergy was single, We have to have Married Clergy.
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Don’t know how closely this relates to the subject, but we had another mass murder/suicide rampage near Santa Barbara.
Yes, I heard about that and read a couple of articles about the shooter. I’m not sure which is my stronger response, sadness or anger.
I’ve been rejected by women more times than I care to count. Many of those rejections made little, if any, sense; they also hurt deeply. In addition, I’ve been falsely accused of misconduct toward women on more than one occasion. Not once has the thought of responding through mass murder or other criminal acts ever crossed my mind.
We need to have a conversation in the church and in society as a whole about these matters. And no, we don’t have such a conversation by telling men to be silent as Hannah Ettinger did in her latest post at Wine & Marble.
http://www.hannahettinger.com/yesallwomen/
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I could write volumes about this topic, volumes. I will try to break my reply up in a few posts, rather than one big long one.
I am in my 40s, have never married, but wanted to be.
Yes, churches treat singles like crud, as does Christian culture in general.
I would include all denominations and churches in this – people at the other blog swear up and down that oh no, their liberal church they attend are more cool with singleness so why not give their particular denomination a try, but I’ve seen adult singles on yet other blogs who attend liberal churches say no, that has not been true for them.
My area of expertise, though, would be Southern Baptist and evangelical culture and churches, both of which are hyper-fixated on family and marriage and who treat adult singles like dogs…
That is, if churches and Christian personalities even bother to acknowledge we adult singles exist (we are ignored a lot, because preachers love to sermonize about marriage and churches love to hold marriage seminars).
I’ve not yet seen, other than one or two very idealistic 21 year old kids say in blog comments over the last few years, that their church was totally groovy for adult singles.
However, I’d like to see these same kids when they’re my age (40s) and still single, because I bet they will find the story changes as they age out of the youth focus found in most churches.
Most churches cater to married people, or teens to 25 year olds. Once you reach your mid 20s, or age 30 (it depends on the specific church), you become “persona non grata” if you are still single / childless.
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As to the original post’s comments, such as,
That started in the Reformation Wars, when whether your clergy was married or single announced Whose Side You Were On. Since Catholic clergy was single, We have to have Married Clergy.
I should have thought about that, HUG, but let’s not forget that we’re also living in the 21st century rather than the 16th.
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Sorry I messed up my blockquote tags in my post above.
But it’s true that churches are hindering people from getting married, as the OP was asking about, with their too strict gender and age segregation rules in regards to Sunday School classes, where they stick all the men in one room and all the women in another.
My parents were Christians, they told me from the time I was a kid that church was the place to meet a man should I wish to get married.
I tried that, but most churches I go to, there are few single men of marrying age (30s, 40s). Most men in churches are already married.
Some churches advertise on their web sites as to having a robust adult singles ministry with single men ages 35 and older, but that’s a big fib.
I show up to those churches either to find no men at all there, or one man (who I have zero romantic interest in or attraction to) is in the class, or like the one class where, though the church web site stated the class was for ages 35 – 45 and would be chock full of men ages 30s/40s, there was at least one guy with white hair in the class, who was using a walker (I would estimate he was in his late 60s, maybe 70s).
There was an obese man in the same class. He had wild, huge hair, a big, funky mustache, and kept laughing at nothing in particular (it was weird). No thanks, not interested in dating overly large dudes with pr0n-movie-actor like facial hair who are socially awkward to an insane degree.
Yet another guy was stick thin, with thick glasses, bushy hair, had a big fluffy mustache, and looked dorky dweeby.
(I do not expect every man to be the spitting image of movie actor Clark Gable or Robert Redford, but there are many a very unattractive or weird man in some adult singles classes at churches. I pass. I would rather stay single. Some of the ladies I saw also put no effort into their appearance.)
I am so not alone in this. If you quiz other Christian adult single women (who are over age 30) about their experiences with adult singles situations in churches, it’s the same story. They are not coming across many single adult Christian males at churches or anywhere else.
Either there are no men at all present in a church, or the ones that are there are weird, terribly out of shape, smell bad, whatever (i.e, they are not dating material – you would not fix your kid sister, your daughter, or your niece up with the types of men usually found in adult singles classes, why would you expect me or other adult women to date these guys?).
A guy at another blog who sometimes blogs about singleness was actually being a weenie about this, disputing this fact, that there are more single Christian females than there are males. He claims this is hogwash. He claims there are plenty of Christian single males to go round for all the ladies who want one – no, there are not. He is flat out wrong.
I don’t know what planet blog weenie guy is on, but almost every study or poll I’ve seen from planet earth (some were published by Barna), my personal experience, reading posts by other single Christian ladies, and from having read books by and for Christian adult singles that talk about this situation, they all testify that single, over-age 25 men are very rare among Christians and in churches.
It’s so bad that some Christian single women give up on marrying a Christian guy and end up marrying an atheist.
The OP said,
Yes as I said above, most Christians are hypocrites about this.
Christians complain about lowering marriage rates but when an adult single asks them for their (or the church’s) help in getting married, they start tossing up objections and platitudes, such as,
1) “You are making an idol out of marriage,” or,
2) “we cannot turn church into a meat market,” or,
3) “just trust the Lord to send you a spouse.”
4) “As soon as you clean yourself up, or God matures you, or God teaches you whatever lesson He feels you need, that is when he will send you a spouse, so just keep waiting in faith and for God’s timing”
-(and there are a million other excuses, platitudes, given to adult singles, that is just a few)-
Could you imagine if a starving orphan walked in a church and begged for a sandwich but got these replies from the Christians there:
1. “You are making an idol out of food and hunger”
2. “We cannot turn church into a grocery store and kitchen to meet your food needs”
3. “Just trust the Lord to magically send you a sandwich.”
4. “As soon as you clean yourself up, or God matures you, or God teaches you whatever lesson He feels you need, that is when he will send you a loaf of bread, so just keep waiting in faith and for God’s timing”
You would never hear those sorts of responses to a starving, homeless kid who begs for a sandwich in a church, but church people sure do feel comfortable about giving such hurtful responses to adult singles who want help in getting married.
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Carmen S wrote,
I’ve not yet turned 50 (that is years away for me still), but I’ve never been married, so how on earth should I teach some younger lady on how to love her husband?
The most salient point, though, is that the Bible does not teach any such thing.
Some people in the Bible did not even get married for the first time until they were 40 years old. The Bible does not set any age limits on marrying or having kids. Sarah didn’t have her first baby until she was what, 90 or 100 years old?
It’s attitudes like that which contribute to the already very big problem of unwanted and protracted singleness in the church. Instead of helping singles to marry, Christians create obstacles for them, or basically tell them out right they have no right to hope for marriage once they reach Age X, which I feel is a very cruel attitude for that woman to have.
Attitudes like that is also another reason I’ve rather given up on Christian advice about dating and marriage. I am just going to try whatever approach works for me, even if it means dating atheists.
I read a book once by single Christian ladies on this topic, and they’re a few years older than I am, and they never married.
What I found rather depressing about their book is that they pretty much feel if you have reached 35/40 and are still not married, you should just live all spiritual like and only care about the “things of God” and not be concerned with getting married.
The authors seem to feel it’s selfish or misplaced priority to even use dating sites or whatever to try to get married once you are mid 30s or older. You’re supposed to just find all meaning and happiness in spiritual goobledly goop and feel warm and fuzzy from Bible reading and serving at church.
That’s not for me. I’m tired of Christians who slight people’s earthly dreams and hopes and shoot them down or make us feel ashamed for having them or for trying to fulfill them.
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Lydia, I totally agreed ten times over with everything you said in your post at
MAY 24, 2014 @ 12:44 PM
Regarding your other post,
I think it depends on the particular church or denomination. Some are very bad about single parents and divorced people, but as a never married and childless women over age 40, I have seen crummier attitudes towards ladies like me.
The ladies who are single mothers or have a child out of wedlock get respectful treatment and props from some churches for having pro created.
Women like me who never had kids are viewed in some denoms/churches as being freaks, suspected baby haters, selfish, failures for not having done our so called God given function in life (have a baby).
The women who have a child out of wedlock (again, depending on which church / denom. we are talking about) get more respect because they at least had a child. Having a child is viewed by some churches as a woman’s entire reason for existence.
Someone like me who never had a baby (due to staying a virgin until marriage, but never got married, don’t know why marriage never happened) we are treated like failures or oddities.
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So many heartbreaking and familiar stories in these comments. My heart goes out to each one who has felt as though you don’t really fit in at church because you are single, divorced, or widowed.
I met my late husband at church in the early 90s, but he wasn’t a Christian. He was hired to play guitar in the band, and I was a singer on the worship team. We fell in love in 1994, but it took us 13 years to get to the altar. In that time I looked to my church, friends, and dating services for a Christian man I could love and marry – without success.
The church I met my husband in had a robust singles ministry for singles in their late 20s to early 40s. I knew of several people who met their spouses because of their involvement in that group, and those that didn’t still seemed to develop many friendships.
The church I attended after that did not have a singles ministry, but I found myself as part of a group under the direction of an associate pastor (who was married) attempting to start a singles ministry. He had a heart for singles, but he also feared that a singles group would become a meat market and he was not going to let that happen. Instead of starting a group that would allow for friendships, activities, and spiritual growth, he had us invest our efforts (and the church’s $$$) in a big production. We planned a Friday night concert with a popular Christian band, and a Saturday conference with a well-know Christian psychologist. We weren’t allowed to advertise in local Christian media, so it was a total flop. Nobody knew about it to buy tickets to the concert or sign up for the conference. The church was out a lot of money, and the group of us who planned the event went our separate ways. We were ashamed of the outcome.
Now, I attend another church and I’m widowed. I am not aware of a singles group for people like me in their 40s, but I know that there is a group for young adults. I have a hard time attending the women’s group because I work full-time, and when they do get together in the evening it’s just too late for me to keep my three-year old daughter out past her bedtime. I love my church though, and I don’t think they look down on anyone. The senior pastor just loves people wherever they’re at, and that is apparent throughout the church.
If it weren’t for Christian Mingle, I wouldn’t be here at SSB! Last year I met and almost married someone I met on CM. Turned out he was a misogynist and that he was involved in a FIC with influences by Doug Phillips and Doug Wilson. When the charming facade cracked, he revealed his ugly dark side and I became aware of a segment of Christianity I had been blissfully unaware of – Christian Patriarchy.
I still long for a great and lasting marriage to a Christian man, but at this point I am not exactly hopeful. I know nothing is impossible for God, but I also know that I live in a fallen world and that good men (and women) are hard to find in these last days.
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One way that single Christians I know have met others is through church visiting. My first husband had two friends in their thirties who had not met anyone in their own churches, asked if we could help and we brought both of them to some church services and some church activities. Our church was small and did not segregate into marrieds and singles so they were included in a group with both right away. Both of them met women and asked them out. It didn’t result directly in marriages but it did expand everyone’s circle of friends.
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My internet connection keeps cutting out this evening, making it hard for me to reply to some of the posts I wanted to reply to.
Anyway, Cindy K said,
I’m sorry if I sound repetitive, because this will echo some things I already said above, but I already decided I don’t know how many months (or year or more) ago to tune out most Christian advice about dating and marriage, and I’ve given up on the “be equally yoked” thing.
I also think hoping to find a decent catch in a church is a no-go. The males that are there, the men who do actually bother to show up to churches, are often either unattractive, weird, too afraid to ask a woman out, or pervy.
A lot of the Christian advice given to singles is usually geared towards kids, and even the stuff that is meant for anyone over age 30 sounds like a re-hash of the same advice given to teens, and it’s so juvenile, impractical, stupid, and insulting.
Another reason I’ve given up on the “marry only another Christian” view (and I was very adamant from youth on-wards that I’d marry only another Christian, but not anymore) is seeing the sheer volumes of Christian men discussed in the news or on blogs like this and other ones, who get arrested or whatever, for crimes such as child molesting, or spousal abuse.
Also, back when I tried dating sites (when I was in my mid 30s mostly), the number of men identifying as Christian on eHarmony and other sites were perverted or dirty.
Some of these Christian men had crass, sexual jokes on their profiles, or stated up front in their communications with me, their favorite sexual positions, etc.
I am a virgin. I was waiting until marriage to have sex – because I believe that is what the Bible says about sexual activity, but I am horrified and repulsed by the number of self-professing Christian single adults (some Christian women are like this too), who do not even attempt to be celibate, or who are fine with cracking sex themed jokes on their dating profiles, or making it known up front they like sex, want it and expect it. A lot of the Christian men are like that on these dating sites.
I’ve come to the conclusion I am just as well off as dating non-Christian men in non- church type environments.
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Shannon H., not that your advice was bad but I’ve seen on other blogs (and in books) where adults singles do inform the church preacher how much he/they are ignoring the adult singles.
Out of the many anecdotal stories I’ve seen, only one ended with the preacher admitting he was neglecting the singles and agreed he’d try better to include them more.
All the other examples I’ve read over the years, the preachers did not care they were excluding, ignoring, or abusing the adult singles.
One easy, cheap way a pastor can make singles feel included (or less excluded) is to stop
1. doing marriage sermons every other week
2. stop using marriage/ parenting as sermon illustrations
If you are doing a sermon about whatever, instead of saying, “Let me give you an example. Last week, my wife and I blah blah blah” – using your spouse as an example,
Instead, say, “Let me give you an example. Last week, my uncle Fred and I blah blah” or “Twenty years ago, when I was a freshmen in college, my room mate Ed and I yada yada yada”
Really, it takes so little effort to change sermon examples to use neighbors, aunts, your pet dog, your granny, your big sister, your dentist, your mail man INSTEAD OF your husband, wife, son, daughter. But do preachers ever do this? Noooooooo.
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missdaisyflower, your description of the singles group reminds me of the singles group years ago in my former church. There were so many people there that I’ll refer to as “unhealthy”, that the name of the group changed from Singles to the Open Door. There never was a Singles group after that.
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Headless U Guy said,
I think partly it’s because a lot of married people (at least women) think that single women are from Mars and that the two have nothing in common.
But the bigger issue is, IMO, a lot of married women, both Christian and Non Christian, view single women as sexual threats, even though most affairs I read or hear about are by married men and married women.
(That is correct, married women, even Christian ones, cheat on their husbands with married men.)
There is this horrible stereotype that all women, but un- married ones in particular, are big old harlots who are over- sexed.
A lot of church teaching I’ve seen in blogs or heard in sermons on TV over the years re- enforces this perspective, even in dating literature for Christians, it always tells men and women never to meet alone, not even for coffee, because coffee = sex, etc.
There is a married lady over at Wartburg Watch who posts there about once a month or so, who really re-enforced these mindsets and buys into it.
She seemed rather insulted at the mere idea of any un- married woman ever asking her husband for help, ever.
She kept demanding to know why I would insist on her husband helping me if I ever had a problem (me being a single woman). I said, I don’t. She was totally misrepresenting my view and twisting it about (she does this to other people on that blog too).
I said, when I go into a church, I do not deliberately pick out married men, or make a bee line for the married guys.
I’m just saying the whole idea that single women are inherently dangerous, who plot to steal married men, so that they should never so much as say “hello” to one, is so freaking insulting was my point, but this woman kept right on saying insulting things about single women and how single ladies should not expect married men to help them ever.
She thinks single women should be treated like lepers, kept away from married couples, out of sight of married men.
I don’t specifically pick out married men to go to for help, I was just saying to her that if the guy I approach happens to be married that should not be an excuse for him to turn me away, nor should I be suspected of hitting on him.
Further, I am a 40 year old virgin (literally). I don’t find most married Christian men attractive anyway, these wives and the husbands who act this way about single women flatter themselves into thinking I’d want to take a roll in the hay with the guy.
By the way, look into a site called “Madison Ashley” or “Ashley Madison” … married people seek out other people to have affairs with.
I so far am unaware of any un-married people setting up a web site for the specific purpose of having sex with married people. That’s married people doing that.
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Mandy said,
Yep, that is common and it comes up a lot in blogs for adult singles and books for them.
A lot of churches condescendingly assume that adult singles exist only to act as butlers, maids, and free baby sitters to married with children couples, but the church never asks how they can help adult singles.
About working in the church nursery. My problem is that I do not feel comfortable around babies and children and have absolutely no desire to work in a church nursery or serve around kids in any capacity, yet, anytime I go to a new church, they always ASSUME I’d be thrilled to work with/around kids or babies (because I am a woman).
Mandy said,
Yes, that too.
One Baptist church I went to, for Wed. night lady Bible study was doing a Beth Moore thing. I don’t hate Beth Moore or anything, but I find a lot of her studies and similar content in women only church groups, tends to be very cute-sy wootsie, with examples about parenting, babies, hair, make-up tossed in etc, and I’ve never married or had a kid, so I can’t relate to some of it.
While I do enjoy shopping and a few other pursuits considered stereotypically feminine, I get a bit turned off at how so many women’s bible study tapes/ sessions/ classes at churches insert typical lady humor about shoes, shopping, and purses.
Mandy said,
I am completely outraged, shocked, and infuriated on your behalf for several different reasons for that, aside from the obvious reasons (it’s unloving, arrogant, and snotty of them) -but another being, what place is it of theirs anyway who the men there date? Let the men date whomever they see fit. And they should not be dictating to you whom you may date or flirt with.
Congratulations on your upcoming wedding 🙂
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Oh, Miss Daisy Flower…
I’m having flashbacks. My parents tried to fix me up with guys at church in my early 20s. I flat out refused. I had nothing in common at all with them. (Maybe it was less than nothing!) I think the one guy had an IQ that was about half of mine, and I have no idea what I would have talked with him about. Within a decade, both guys turned out to be gay.
I believe that there are plenty of Christians in the 30s-50s crowd who are out there but have just grown weary of church for these same reasons discussed here. And with some of these fundamentalist churches, lots of Christians classify as non-Christian. I think I’d try out the Methodists.
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Singleman,
I’ve thought all day, in the back of my head, about how you were falsely accused. It’s troubling, and it’s the kind of stuff that gives Christianity a bad name. People have left the church over less, and I’m sorry, FWIW. I’m angry on your behalf, too. If I had a voice at that church, I would march into the pastor’s office and unload on them (or whoever) for maligning you.
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Brenda said,
One other thing I don’t think a lot of married Christians realize, especially the ones who don’t give a thought to how churches treat older singles, or who feel it’s okay to treat adult singles like dirt – one day your spouse is going to die, or may divorce you.
I’ve read articles about wives who have husbands who got early onset dementia in their 40s, or after, in their 50s or so.
These men with dementia are like large children now, and their wives say they feel like they don’t have a husband anymore. They have to act as a “Mom” type care taker figure to the husband now. The husband has become a child and has ceased being a life partner they can rely on or turn to for support.
Then you do have spouses who divorce. I saw one guy say on a blog a few years ago his wife left him when he was in his mid 30s and he was single for several years before re- marrying some other woman.
He said when he found himself divorced in his mid 30s, he had his eyes opened to just how crappy Christians treat adult singles.
He said it was an eye opening experience, and he carries it with him even though he is in his 40s now. He said he did not realize until he found himself single again just how awful Christians treat folks who don’t fit the “marry in your 20s and have two kids” scheme.
I read about some other guy in a similar situation. After his divorce, he said an elder or some dude from his church started calling him about once a week and asking him “tell the truth, have you been viewing pornography?”
This guy said pr0n use was the last issue he was having – he said no, he didn’t do that, but he was lonely, confused, etc, that his wife had left him, but this church guys just assumed the minute the dude was single again he horn dogged all over the place.
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I don’t have an answer to these problems, but I do wish that churches organized their groups and classes more like colleges. You know, topically. So a class on ‘loneliness’ might attract everyone from the married woman with an uninvolved husband to an older widower, also encompassing singles of any age. A class on ‘transition’ might involve people who had experienced death, divorce, the loss of a job, or a cross-country move. Hopefully people would interact with a more diverse group of people, and in addition a group that would change every few months, and I’d like to think that would help allay the strange ‘fear of singles’ so many church people display.
We should have long since moved past simplistic age and marital-state organization, which is rooted in the early 20th century rise of the Sunday Schools.. We all have more in common than we think.
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singleman said,
Totally agree. Cannot emphasize that enough.
It’s all well and good to defend “the family unit” but churches (Baptist/ evangelical/ Reformed) have gone much too far with it, so that anyone who is not in a traditional family unit is marginalized.
Christians in certain denominations want single to marry but then they give us counter-intuitive advice in how to do so, or they erect all sorts of obstacles for us.
———————————-
And before I forget, a big thank you to Julie Anne to occasionally blogging about this issue.
Discussion of this topic is, IMO, very much needed but hardly ever discussed in main stream Christianity. On rare occasions it is brought up, adult singles are insulted and blamed for being single (see comments by Al Mohler for examples, but his attitude pops up in every day churches, on well known, huge, famous Christian blogs, etc, and looney tunes solutions are given such as early marriage, etc.)
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singleman said,
That was the story about the 22 year old guy, Rodgers, who was frustrated, he said, at being single and a virgin, and he could not get any dates, so he went on a shooting rampage.
Here is one page about it:
‘Elliot Rodger’s Retribution’: Santa Barbara killer in his own sick words before shooting
I think churches need to tone down the amount of attention they pay to marriage and sex and start emphasizing celibacy and adult singleness more, and they need to start speaking more favorably of singleness and virginity / celibacy.
Maybe if that young Rodgers guy did not feel so ashamed or lacking over being a virgin at 22 (I’m over 40 and still a virgin, and he felt old to be a virgin? LOL), he might not have gone that route.
Secular society already glorifies sex and romantic relationships as it is, and churches just re-enforce that with the steady stream of “isn’t marriage so wonderful” sermons, and constantly glorifying marriage and marital sex.
Nary a word is said by Christians or preachers to encourage adult single celibates.
Many Christians today have also been taking pot shots at virginity.
Some Christians think it’s mean and hateful to support the idea of virginity- until- marriage, because some 30 year old women today, who had consensual sex when they were 15, felt bad about hearing a story about used chewing gum in a lecture on sexual purity at church when they were 17 years old.
Because of that, they feel churches and Christians should stop supporting biblical standards on sex (i.e., that sex is for marriage only). And I totally disagree with them about that.
(I am sorry if hearing a sexual purity lecture that was insensitively phrased when they were a teen by some adult Sunday School teacher made them feel bad, but I do not see that as being a sufficient reason to drop all biblical ideals or biblical teachings about sexual behavior.)
So, now we have secular society which tends to ridicule virginity to start with, and now a lot of churches and Christians have jumped on board with that attitude as well.
Many preachers today are reluctant to refer to pre-marital sex as being sinful, because it might offend someone in the pew, or hurt that person’s feelings.
Some of these preachers who are reluctant to call out hetero sexual sin prefer to attack homosexual marriage constantly or else gush enthusiastically about the wonders and godliness of hetero marriage.
I know there are some wacko, nutter Christian groups who go way too far with sexual purity teachings (e.g., virginity balls or purity balls for teen girls), but the main stream Christian culture has gone the other route and now just shrugs their shoulders at sexual sin, looks the other way, or out right mocks and insults adults such as me who have stayed virgins (I’ve seen this happen on Christian blogs over the last few years).
So, if you are a genuine virgin over 18 or 25 years of age, where are you to hear the message that it is fine, acceptable, and you are not weird, a loser, or a failure for being a virgin when you are older?
People should not feel ashamed to be single or to be a virgin past such- and- such an age.
But one can no longer hear this message from churches or Christian blogs and pod casts that it’s okay to be a virgin in your 20s, 30s, and older, because these Christian groups and media are either conveying “marriage is great” messages, or, “don’t sweat it if you are having pre- marital sex all over the place”.
There are no positive messages about virginity and singleness being broadcast by Christians.
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Cindy K said,
There might be a lot of 30s – 50s Christians out there, but it sure is hard meeting them.
Some of the ones I’ve run across who i.d. as Christian on the dating sites are crass and obscene.
One of my friends was a Baptist for many years but went Methodist a few years ago and seems to like the change much better.
One of my grandparents was a Methodist, but went Southern Baptist.
I had another Methodist friend who loathed and hated Baptists – I reminded him I was a Baptist, but he said he made an exception for me.
I told my lady friend, the one who went from Southern Baptist to Methodist, about how hard it was to meet a single man my age at Baptist churches, one reason being, they divvy up the genders, all men in one class, all women in another, etc, and they are strict by age, like one class might be for age 20 – 29, another for ages 30 – 35, etc.
Even in the very few mixed gender classes they offer at some Baptist churches, they segregate tightly by age, you might be in a situation like, you are an age 38 single female, with all other women in your mixed gender group, for an age 35 – 40 group (there are no men that particular age range present)…
Meanwhile, all the single Christian guys at the church are in the age 30-34 mixed group, or 41 – 45 mixed group. It’s ridiculous.
I’m guessing Baptists won’t permit a 38 year old single woman to flirt / date with a 34 year old single man, or a 42 yo single man?
I mean, do they expect the 38 yo single female to stick to only another 38 yo?
Don’t get me wrong, I personally prefer to date men my exact age or only a few years of either side of my age when it comes to age/dating, but Baptists take it to an extreme with how they categorize their classes.
Baptists make it very hard to acquire a mate at church once you are 30 or older.
I told my lady friend, who used to be Southern Baptist but who is now Methodist, about my experiences of trying to find single men in Baptist churches, and I told her how I was considering going to a new Baptist church, but on their site they really divvy up the age and gender stuff to such a nutty degree, I did not see how I could meet a man there, and her reply went like this:
“Oh those Baptists!! Just walk into any classes with single men around your age that you see there, be willing to date even a guy five years younger. Ignore their stupid age rules….”
I see her point.
OTOH, I’ve seen stories online about 40 something single men who start attending the church’s 20 something singles, because all the 40 something men want a 21 year old trophy wife.
In that story I read about, the 20 something women were understandably creeped out and blabbed to the preacher who then kicked the 40 something men out, because the men, despite being warned, kept going back to the 20 yo class to hit on the 20 yo females. I do think that is inappropriate.
I also believe if more men would date closer to their age, they would be more likely to get a woman, but every man, from age 15 to 95, insists on dating only 21 year old women.
Most 45 year old men will NOT date any woman over 35, for instance. I have also seen a lot of Christian men with that mind set, and it keeps them single much longer than they need to, if only they would date other 45 year old women instead of holding out for little miss fantasy age 25 years old.
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Singleman,
I’ve thought all day, in the back of my head, about how you were falsely accused. It’s troubling, and it’s the kind of stuff that gives Christianity a bad name. People have left the church over less, and I’m sorry, FWIW. I’m angry on your behalf, too. If I had a voice at that church, I would march into the pastor’s office and unload on them (or whoever) for maligning you.
Thanks, Cindy.
Believe it or not, I don’t hate that woman. She was clearly speaking out of her own woundedness, and I hope and pray she finds the healing she needs. As a man, I’m sorry that other men have hurt her.
That doesn’t mean I approve of what she did. It’s had a definite impact on my life. Even though I wasn’t interested in dating her, the incident has made me even more cautious and fearful about dating.
That was not the first time I’ve been falsely accused. I do hope and pray it’s the last.
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From almost day one as a Christian in the evangelical faith tradition I have been ashamed of two things, first I am a human being and second I am single. It is echoed almost daily but not directly. We are to despise our humanity and singleness, we are evil vile God hating scum and the one sure thing God will take His holy vengeance on us and we should praise Him in His Righteousness. I think such ideas are completely stupid and delusional and I am grateful I have given up magical “thinking”. But the emotional aspect of it still rears its ugly head.
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“And as for getting help to meet a christian mate, I would really like that but for some reasons churches are reluctant to do this. Anybody have any ideas why that is?”
Do meddling busybodies aka self-appointed matchmakers count? I think “help” is the key word here. It has to be done with consent, and the people doing the helping need to know HOW somebody can be helped and know the person they are helping.
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“…but I do resent the fact that others think I have ‘extra time’ to serve and that simply is not true.”
I always hated this. I think the ones who always made this claim looked back on their own slothful, lazy days in the singles group and concluded that all singles lived like that. As much as marriage and children pose their own problems, I agree with Solomon when he said, “Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor.” Ecclesiastes 4:9. I now have far fewer problems with meals and laundry and housework.
I knew a few singles that resorted to things like laundry services and eating out all the time, and these things were looked at as wastes of money by some. When you think about it, it really is a bizarre judgment to level on somebody.
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Brian, Those evangelical “Christians” should read I Corinthians 7: 7-9. Paul says that it would be better if all men were unmarried as he was, but better to marry than to burn. So these folks seem to think the opposite of Paul. Paul was one of the best witnesses for Christ ever–he was single. You have nothing to be ashamed of–for being human or single. If you are single, do it well; if you are married. do it well. Perhaps some of those married folks are miserable and just want company.
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Steve Scott,
For one thing it is only between me and the Lord how I spend the money he gives to me. I’m single and I do my own laundry, but often eat out. I can go to TGIF and make 2 or 3 meals out of one and don’t have to cook. When I was married I had to do laundry for up to 7 people, while the kids were home and work 40 hours a week. That whole 2 are better than one thing is great, if the second person is doing their share.
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I’m in a bit different situation: I’m an embarrassment to my ultra-conservative home church because I am a highly successful single who did far better in life than most of the men, and my children turned out better than theirs did too.
Conservative church leaders like unhappy singles, but a divorced woman who is doing well? That’s really scary to them.
That’s why I urge singles to leave any church that doesn’t value them. One clue: Pastors who preach sermons and show marriage enrichment videos that subtly shame singles.
You cannot change closed-minded church leaders. The concept that singles are responsible and reliable and called to thrive is too threatening to their notion of respectable Christianity. They might deny it, but they teach that being married is just as important as believing in the Trinity.
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” think churches need to tone down the amount of attention they pay to marriage and sex and start emphasizing celibacy and adult singleness more, and they need to start speaking more favorably of singleness and virginity / celibacy.”
I wish they would tone down all of it. What is the point? Where is Jesus Christ? I have started to really see the futility of the weekly “sermon”. Yet now that is being heralded as the most important event of your week. Which of course, promotes the pastor more than Jesus Christ. personalities tend to rule the day in most churches.
If one must sit in a pew and be talked at by a sage, I would rather be taught by a scholar that brings in historical context. I would rather hear about what the Kingdom of God meant to the 1st Century hearer. And so on. I would rather see more give and take….interaction. Not dogma and one guy’s opinion on interpretation. (Usually his gurus opinion)
It just seems to me pastors often end up overreaching on most topics and turn our relationship with Christ into rules, roles and formulas that they have the answer for instead of individuals abiding in Christ and encouraging one another and rebuking only when necessary,
I would rather be with a group and no one even notices if you are married, single, divorced, etc because that would have nothing to do with being there. because in Christ there is no male nor female, Greek/Jew, slave or free.
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There are a lot of good churches for singles. Look for more egalitarian churches, and churches that put women up front. Usually these are safe. Patriarchal churches are the kiss of death to your soul.
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Anon2,
Conservative church leaders like unhappy singles, but a divorced woman who is doing well? That’s really scary to them.
At the last Baptist church I visited, I ended up meeting a fellow nurse, a woman, on my first visit there. She was cool. She worked for the county health department, was single, and was 50 years old. I find it interesting that I even learned about this.
There had been some kind of dinner for at an church organizational meeting, and to cover the food, the people who hosted it asked for a suggested donation “per couple.” This successful and self-sufficient woman who attended wanted to do her part, but they refused her money. The meeting hosts chose to make a really big deal out of it, rather than just graciously taking the money. They “counseled” the woman for being inappropriate.
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“Conservative church leaders like unhappy singles, but a divorced woman who is doing well? That’s really scary to them”
Oh I am sure they would take your money. One of the most amusing aspects of where the SBC went with patriarchy was the dependence on many widowed woman’s money while they promoted all aspects of patriarchy. It started to look like: Old women, pay me to be the man.
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Lydia — Yes, they took my money and put me on the church finance committee, but continued to bash singles and divorcees from the pulpit at every opportunity. I finally just walked away. There was no point in explaining it to them; they are fish who don’t know they’re wet.
Cindy K — Ha ha ha! That’s a great story. In my old church I was never asked to bring the treats to Sunday school class, or in the rare case that I was invited over, I was expected to bring chips or drinks!
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Lydia,
You touched on an important point (your comment May 26; 5:22 am):
Women are key. If we don’t speak up, if we don’t put down our foot, if we continue to put up with this behavior, we just make life harder for our daughters and granddaughters.
We have to be gadflies and curmudgeons and throw our weight around. Otherwise we are encouraging bad behavior.
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“Women are key. If we don’t speak up, if we don’t put down our foot, if we continue to put up with this behavior, we just make life harder for our daughters and granddaughters.
We have to be gadflies and curmudgeons and throw our weight around. Otherwise we are encouraging bad behavior.”
You sound like my 90 something step father. He rails against it and he has been SBC all his life. But he remembers when it was totally different and no one gave a hoot if women taught men. He claims women mostly kept churches alive through their work and missions (in the SBC it was WMU that got the whole thing goign) and if they left it would all be over. He thinks they should vote with their feet and money.
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Do meddling busybodies aka self-appointed matchmakers count? I think “help” is the key word here. It has to be done with consent, and the people doing the helping need to know HOW somebody can be helped and know the person they are helping.
Great point, Steve!
I’ve been set up for dates three times in my life. The first two simply didn’t work out; the third, which I mentioned in a prior comment, was a disaster. In the case of the latter, the person who set up that date seemed more interested in screening to make sure I was safe than getting to know me as a person.
Would I trust a real matchmaker? I’m not sure, and I can’t afford to hire one as I’m living on a lot less than I earned at my previous full-time job. (Thanks for nothing, economic “recovery.”)
On the other hand, Julia Duin wrote an essay some years ago titled, “What If Churches Had Matchmakers?” which may be worth a read.
http://www.kathan.co.nz/id333.htm
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Interesting discussion about how singles are marginalized.
I won’t share much on my views on Josh Harris’s “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” since most of my thoughts on it are on my blog (www.ikdg.wordpress.com).
I will say that in most churches I have seen where they promote this the singles learn to avoid relating to those of the opposite sex vs. learning how to properly relate even going in age 30’s. It is shocking how churches teach something that was designed (at best) for teenagers and thought it should apply to all ages.
One person commented not too long ago that it was something that Josh Harris could develop social skills with the opposite sex by dating but then turn around and write a book that lead to people not dating and not developing social skills with the opposite sex.
Carolyn McCulley has a book out titled “Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?” and she seems to make no connection between her and other singles embracing “kissing dating goodbye” and not getting married.
What is worse is that Josh Harris has been basically reluctant to admit any of the problems KDG has caused.
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Steve S said
That is a good point, and one raised in a few books I’ve read by adult singles for adult singles.
A lot of Christians who are married who are now in their 40s, 50s, or older think of adult singleness in terms of being a college kid at age 21, when a person doesn’t quite have the same responsibilities as they do later….
That is, such married Christians do not understand that being single at age 30, 40, 50, or older carries much more responsibilities and burdens than it does when you are single at 18 or 21.
Some married Christians associate “being single” with a life of relaxation and ease, because they associate being single with being 18 years old and still living at home, or with being 21 and being in college and going to parties.
They don’t understand that older singles (anyone single over 30s) does not have a carefree life merely due to being single.
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Anon2 said,
Al Mohler does that sort of thing a lot. He is so keen to build up and defend marriage that he has in the past, in interviews and on his blog, taken pot shots at adult singleness.
In my opinion, not only do some Christians produce videos or blogs with pro marriage content that subtly shame singles as you were saying, but just by the sheer fact that so many churches and Christian personalities never address adult singleness – every sermon or book is about marriage – is another form of marginalizing adult singleness.
I have attended a few churches in person in my time, and watched a lot of Christian TV shows, but in all that time, I’ve never once seen a sermon extolling the greatness of singleness, or one that encourages adult singles to hang in there.
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Lydia said,
I hear you, and to a point I agree. I do think preachers should talk about Jesus more and maybe be less topical.
On the other hand, topical sermons can maybe help people who are facing a particular struggle or situation.
My view is if preachers are going to sermonize on marriage, and they in fact do so, and they do it constantly, they need to give equal air time to adult singleness, but they do not.
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I agree with steve240’s comments.
But it seems not confined to only the IKDG (“Kissing Dating Goodbye”) book, but over all Baptist and evangelical culture…
I’ve read enough dating content put out by various Christians over the years to tell you that the “distrust the opposite gender” views come up everywhere, not just in Harris’ IKDG book.
I think Harri’s IKDB book is probably one of the better known examples of making singles paranoid of each other, but the thinking the book is based upon seems to me to be common among many areas of evangelicalism and Southern Baptist churches and philosophies.
I support people remaining chaste until they marry, but, some Christians are so paranoid of pre-marital sex, they essentially teach men and women to stay apart, never mingle and chat – which means they never develop social skills or get chances to date and therefore marry.
Then these Christians have the nerve to complain about adult singles not being married.
They have created the very problem they complain about but never seem to get a clue to this.
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