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The gospel, and the many ways and opportunities in which it is presented: Creation debates, evangelism, street preaching, etc.
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Watching social media discuss the Ken Ham vs Bill Nye creation debate, a word kept coming popping up all over the place: the gospel. Let’s first look at its use within the widely publicized creation debate.
To sum up my general views on yesterday’s debate: I have a hunch that most people supported the guy on their side of the fence, and most likely were not swayed to jump to the other side of the fence after hearing the debate.
This 40-second video might accurately portray what a lot of people felt:
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While many people looked at this debate as an opportunity to discuss science vs creationism, many were focused on this venue as an important gospel opportunity:
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Here are comments from articles highlighting the gospel in the context of the debate from familiar names:
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“Ham was consistently bold in citing his confidence in God, in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and in the full authority and divine inspiration of the Bible.” ~Albert Mohler
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“Ken Ham has an unwavering commitment to biblical authority and to the gospel. I admire that about him and do believe him to represent the most compelling position. I am grateful that he is out there fighting the good fight. He’s one of the good guys.” ~Denny Burk
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First, I thought Ken Ham did very well. He shared the Gospel multiple times (I think I counted 4 complete Gospel presentations, as well as numerous references to sin, the Fall, and redemption in Christ), and he stuck to his message that the true disagreement is at the presuppositional level. ~JD Hall
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Here are other comments from around the net:
Then you were not listening carefully. Ken Ham did what he needed to say. The gospel true was preached and he stuck to the Bible rather then [sic] his own opinion. As for the debate, it will go on till the end of time because the unregenerate heart will not understand God and will always ask to see more signs. ~Guy
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How many times did Ken Ham share the gospel? ALOT… How many times did he direct everything to God & his word? ALOT… Bill Nye & the media is portraying that He won the debate… AHH, but you are wrong again world.. If one soul came to the Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ – It was ALL worth it. How many non-believers do you think watched? Praising God for using this debate and Ken Ham & AIG to further His kingdom & for His glory!! ~Jay
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1st Corinthians1:18 for the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing……… ken ham wove the gospel message into his portion of the debate, that in itself is a great advance. Do you have any idea how many unsaved heard the Gospel last night because of that….. ~Glen
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More importantly last night, the Gospel was presented with Truth and grace. A seed was planted. It’s now up to the Holy Spirit to show Bill Nye the error of his ways. If the Lord can transform Saul of Tarsus, He can certainly transform Bill Nye, the Science Guy! Keep praying… ~Lee
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That’s a whole lot of gospel talk, right?
While some in the Christian camp were thrilled with Ham’s gospel presentation and made note of how many times he included the gospel message in the debate, others (including Christians) were not so impressed:
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There was a great debate on the topic of the gospel following the above tweet.
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:39-40
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I’ve been thinking about this gospel that so many talk about. Obviously Ken Ham was being judged by Christians on how well and how many times he presented it. It seems there must have been people on the sidelines with scorecards making tally marks when listening to Ken Ham’s words, judging whether or not he passed their gospel presentation test.
Someone actually created a Facebook page on the same day of the debate to devote themselves to praying for Bill Nye: Pray for Bill Nye: “Let’s commit to praying that the Holy Spirit will prick the heart of Bill Nye “The Science Guy.”
I’m glad Ham touched on the important facets of Christianity – sin, death/resurrection of Christ. However, I’m curious to know how many people were won over to Christ by Ham’s gospel-ese words? Did anyone’s heart get stirred by hearing that gospel message four times in the debate? I suspect not. ::::Did I hear a collective gasp from a certain crowd? ::::
But this focus on the gospel message within the debate also reminds me of those who share the gospel recklessly. I’m not talking about being a fool for Christ, but maybe that other F word: Farisee, oops Pharisee.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are likewhitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. (Matthew 23:25-28, ESV)
Case in point, street evangelist Tony Miano doing his thing on Twitter yesterday – a smattering of spiritual words/verses in response to the recent announcement from Scotland that they now allow same-sex marriage. Look at the behavior. Look at the words in the hashtags. This is a man whose ministry is to share the gospel. The dude gets PAID to act like this. Seriously! (Strong language warning!)
I’m afraid that the following particular passages are sometimes used as a license to be rude when sharing the Gospel. The verses have been quoted by those who share their brand of the gospel on a whim, seemingly without a care in the world as to the responsibility of sharing it in a way that honors the Lord, or by looking at their life as a reflection of Christ and a witness to His saving grace.
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1 Corinthians 1:17–18).
Here’s another verse along the same lines:
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes” (Romans 1:16).
In conclusion, I have a hunch that God is not counting how many gospel presentations at creation debates or how many people are acting foolish for Christ while street evangelizing or on evangelizing on Twitter:
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He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.
Luke 16:15
Related articles:
Spiritual Sounding Board 
I think what the world sees is that Christians can’t say anything without bringing the gospel into it. Was sharing the gospel necessary for a creation/evolution debate? I honestly don’t know if it was needed, or if it’s possible to debate the Creationist’s views without brining the Jesus story into it. I have no doubt that Ham would have gotten flak from other Christians if he didn’t bring the gospel into it. People act like this may be the ONLY time one person may have heard the gospel, and their only chance to be saved, so Ham was right to capitalize on it. I don’t know, it was hard for me to watch it, mainly because it seemed so unproductive. That last question: “Would anything change your mind” spoke volumes to me.
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Oh, wow, you watched it, huh, Hannah? I was struck by the last sentence, too. Your brothers were interrupting me and so I missed a lot of it, but I thought they both were respectful of each other, not unnecessarily snarky – a few zingers that I saw, but all in good fun-kind-of-snark.
I do think that many people look at it the way you describe – – – that it may be the only opportunity to hear the gospel message. (I’m thinking that it wouldn’t matter with a particular doctrine, though – – ya either are or you aren’t, right?)
I think Ham was definitely judged by the Christian world on his performance of doing due diligence for the Gospel.
But overall, I think the whole thing was a waste of time.
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Good thoughts Julie Anne.
As far as presenting the gospel in any and all situations, while I do believe that it is important for people to hear about God, I also know that many people don’t want Christians to make them their “project.” By that, I mean, that they don’t want to just be seen as someone to convert. Most people just want to be listened to, respected and befriended. So, when Christians make converting people their “project,” it turns many non-Christians off.
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JA, thanks for posting my tweet! 😉
I must admit, I’m perplexed over this whole post. Ken Ham presented his information in a very kind and respectful manner and in the process he had the opportunity to bring the Gospel into it because it fit the discussion. It wasn’t thrown in or out of place.
I find it sad that there are a whole group of Christians out there that were actually pulling for the person who hates God and the Bible, and hoping the person who loves Christ falls flat on his face. It boggles my mind.
And, we weren’t keeping score. My heart is stirred anytime I hear my King and Savior proclaimed to the masses the way it was last night. Yours isn’t? And Ken wasn’t doing due diligence, that’s what he’s done for decades.
And you have no idea if last night had an affect on anyone. Why even presume?The Holy Spirit can touch anyone he wants when the truth is proclaimed.
Like I said, Im just completely perplexed by your post. Regardless of the fact that you dislike Ham, you should rejoice that Christ was exalted among the nations.
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I am not ashamed of the Gospel but I am embarrassed by the way Christians make braying asses out of themselves and cover up their mess with pseudospiritual gospelizing of the pile.
People see right through it and it makes Christians look like a bunch of idiots.
Or worse, it makes them look like ignorant narrow minded people with an agenda.
Ham has nothing to prove a six day creation of a six thousand year universe so he uses the Bible and the Gospel like kids in a Sunday School class that don’t know the answer to a question and the go to answer is “Um, Jesus?”
The gospel is for our spiritual salvation and has nothing to do with the debate at hand. The “if one person is saved…” argument is disingenuous because the obnoxious delivery of the good news turned more people off to Christianity than drew them to the cross.
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Opinemine: You obviously didn’t watch the debate.
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#1 – – I have not heard Bill Nye say he hates God or the Bible, so I’m not going to agree with your statement unless you can find proof of that.
#2 – – I haven’t seen anyone who has said they hope to see Ham fall flat on his face. Where is it, Kevin? (I know you don’t mean literally, just figuratively.)
#1 – – where do I say I dislike Ham? I dislike how he makes YEC a primary doctrinal issue, but that does not reflect on how I think of him personally. I don’t even know the man. He came across very kind and respectable on the debate. We just happen to disagree with the way in which he pushes what he believes.
#2 – How was Christ exalted among the nations? Can you elaborate on that? Unless you mean that Christians were excited that a Christian had a platform and was spreading the “gospel.”
Thanks for coming here to discuss, Kevin. I really appreciate it. Twitter is a drag sometimes. 140 character limit crimps my style 🙂
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The countless debates, endless conferences, ongoing speaking engagements, etc; what is the point? Who is exalted and glorified in all this? What is the outcome? Give Ham credit, at least he was courteous!
I am amazed at the continual ignorance of Christianity in this country, people who would support Pharisees like Miano- who continually tweets, keeks, youtubes, and blogs incessantly about his every move. He seeks to glorify and exalt himself; his actions and words are so telling. He boasts of not watching the super bowl, and of not having tv – like he is superior to others who may have tvs and dared to watch the game. He boasts of reading books, like Berkhoff’s systematic theology, or of studying Greek; why did he drop out of the Master’s college if he seeks to educate himself? Why did he quit his job after 13 years and then not continue his education? Everything Miano does is for show, and to draw attention to himself. When he hashtags sinners as ‘thehypocrisyoftolerance’, he brings shame and reproach upon the name of Christ. He shows no mercy or compassion for them, he only desires to argue. That is NOT biblical evangelism. He has no love for the souls of men, and he has NO business parading himself as a street preacher. His local church needs to reel him in off the streets and rebuke his actions and words. His words and actions prove he hasn’t been called by God to preach to anybody. He needs to get a job and fade from public view.
Miano is ever-changing, like the waves of the sea being tossed to and fro. He’s always going in different directions, following the latest ‘trend’ or ‘fad’, or whatever his favorite celebrity pastor may be doing. He even quotes them, like ‘twist not scripture, lest ye be like Satan’ – that is a quote from Paul Washer.
Since many are ignorant of what an evangelist/street preacher is supposed to ‘look like’, they continue to shell out $$ and defend this trash.
Here was a golden opportunity to reach out to unregenerate homosexuals; instead, Miano does what he does best…he picks a ‘fight’ with them and insults them in hashtags. Tony Miano @TonyMiano 6h
@Ulvenkai @congunners @Reuters #TheHypocrisyOfTolerance
THAT is how he evangelizes the lost?!? And people support this ministry? Wow, just wow. Where is the heart of compassion we are all called to have for the lost? It reminds me of Matthew 5:46-47, “For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles the same? ” Miano is only ‘kind’ to a select few, those within his ‘camp’. He tries to attach himself to the heavy hitters of Christianity, but so far, the only one who’s gone beyond being cordial to him is Phil Johnson. I pity Johnson for defending a man who is so hateful and abusive to the lost AND the saved; who is quick to deem others as unsaved or ‘might not be saved’. Shame on anyone who thinks Miano has a right to be rude,crude and obnoxious to people. Shame on anyone who thinks he has a right to preach, and worse yet, who supports this.
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Oops, forgot this part:
I like Christ being exalted – you bet. I do not like it when a man takes something that is not of great importance doctrinally and makes them of primary importance (YEC). This to me is a colossal waste of time. The primary issue is this: did God create the heavens and the earth? Yes, He did. That is enough for me. I believe that with my whole heart. I also believe that Christ, His Son, came to the earth and paid the consequence for my sin and he did it by dying on the cross so that I may live. He took the death that I deserved. And then He rose again. Glory be to God.
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Kevin, dude, I just got doctrinal whiplash looking at your Twitter followers: from JD Hall to Paul Dohse! LMBO!!!
There’s more: Fred Butler to Dr. Michael Brown What a crackup!
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JA,
Yes, twitter has its limitations….;-)
#1 – Of course Bill Nye hates God and the Bible. All atheists do, by their nature. Actually, All people hate and reject God before they are born again.
#2 – Are you kidding? lol. There were Christians on twitter bashing Ham all throughout the debate. The girl above, Andie Redwine, even said Bill Nye was more Christ-like that Ham. Really? this is what I mean.
#3 – I get the impression you dislike Ham from posts I have seen. Even from the one by your daughter where Ham is blamed for her falling away from the faith. Maybe Im misunderstanding that, but that is how it came across to me. Also, Ham stated last night that you don’t have to be YEC to be saved.
#4- Christ was exalted among the nations because people from all over the world were watching and listening.
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Those are some fighting words here.
So, on the basis of someone claiming to be a Christian, they get to have the label of being more “Christ-like?” Is that how it works for you? What about the fruit they exhibit? Where does that fall? Ok, did you happen to look at the storify I posted with Miano and his response to the new same-sex law in Scotland? What did you think of his behavior? Please don’t miss this question, it will help us to understand you more clearly.
Re: #3 – Shoot, if Ham said that about YEC last night, then it must have been when my boys were needing me. I’d love to hear that from his mouth, but don’t really want to wade through that long debate. But I believe what you are saying; however, I’ve also read his own words at his website and interviews where the implication is pretty clear that if you can’t believe in the literal 6-day, then you will have a hard time believing the rest of the Bible and so the implication is it’s very difficult to be saved, if not impossible without the YE interpretation. So, I don’t know what to make of his statement last night. I wish he could be more clear in written words for all to see because this situation does affect my family personally.
That was a message that my daughter was taught for years – – (the 1st commenter in this thread, btw). When you have a daughter who is left in spiritual crisis, then you might get where the anger comes from. This is not something to mess around with – – Ham shouldn’t even HINT that it comes close to a primary doctrinal issue. It doesn’t.
#4 – Watching and listening to a debate does not equate with exalting Christ to me unless some were worshipping at the same time – – that’s a possibility, I suppose. But that’s not really worth arguing about. I don’t really care about that issue, but wanted to understand where you were coming from.
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Bill Nye says he is an agnostic. He just doesn’t know and doesn’t think we can know whether or not God exists.
It is ridiculous to say that atheists hate God. They don’t believe God exists so how could they hate Him? It would be like me saying I hate the Easter bunny.
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I’d like to jump in here again. Being an atheist does NOT require a hatred of God, it is more the point that they don’t believe God exists. Since they don’t believe it, it doesn’t make much sense that they would hate God. I know many atheists, I have never heard them say they hate God, to them it makes as much sense as someone hating unicorns. Unicorns don’t exist, why waste the emotional energy? Along the same lines, I can’t remember a single conversion story that started out “I hated God”, for every conversion story there is a reason behind it. Saul didn’t hate God before he became converted and was renamed Paul. Hate is such a strong word, I don’t like to use it unless absolutely necessary.
Btw, I don’t blame anyone (Ham or O’Neal or my father for that matter) for losing my faith. It’s a personal thing. No one caused my disbelief. There was a series of events that led up to it, and yes, some YEC theory was involved, but I don’t think its fair to place blame on anyone.
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Kevin
#1- Please Kevin, hate is a little strong don’t ya think. We are all sinners and cannot be in God’s presence (heaven) unless we are believers; but to say all people hate God is a little extreme. People are oblivious to God or don’t care or hate, etc.- there are a wide arrange of emotions concerning God. Jesus when He was on earth did not go around spouting off that all people hated Him. I think it wise for us not to do the same.
#2 – Well maybe people are seeing some hypocrisy coming out in the Celebrity Christian Community and are frankly getting a little tired of it all. Why don’t we deal with the real issues that plague this American “Christian” country like spiritual abuse in the pulpit or child sex abuse and just maybe we can see people being a little more sympathetic? or maybe we will get unbelievers to start trusting us again?
#3- Again I think many are just getting tired of all this celebrity stuff; it is a matter of people trusting the whole “Christian” agenda . I happen to hear that Hams museum was losing money these past few years; nothing like a good debate to bring people in the door (just an observation and opinion).
#4- Christ is more exalted when we are humble and not blasting what we do in the marketplace. Just check out the pharisee and the tax collector story.
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Jinx Marsha – we said the same thing. 🙂
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Kathi, what you said about always feeling like Christians make converting people a project resonates with me. I’m getting ready to move to the heart of mormon-land this summer and I have felt the frustration of being just such a conversion project. I am at the point where I have to carefully weigh the benefits of a possible friendship based on whether or not the person will accept the fact that I have no desire to join their faith. Which leads me to my point… can we as Christians enter into a debate with someone else of different beliefs and leave the debate with respect on both sides? I have not seen this in recent years. I didn’t understand the position of non-believers until I was treated as one in my future hometown. I have so much more respect and compassion now for people who take a different approach to life, including atheists and agnostics.
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Actually, Kevin is correct; all do hate God before being born again. Christ said if you love me, you will keep my commandments. Those who do not obey God prove their hatred of Him. Those who do love Him will keep His commandments, albeit imperfectly. All have gone astray, none are good, none seek after Him.{ Romans 3:10-12}. Hate is NOT necessarily an emotion, it’s a rejection. Atheists reject God. They prove their rejection/hatred of Him by denying His existence, His creative power, His sovereignty, and by rebelling against His commands. I am not seeking to get into a theological debate, but we cannot reject entirely what Kevin states.
None of us are perfect, we must remember to love one another yes; but that doesn’t include embracing erroneous teaching. If any man or woman teaches erroneously, they should be corrected.
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So thanks to Lyn – we have a perfect example of “Christianese” versus how the rest of the world thinks. Thanks to my upbringing, Lyn, I know where you are coming from, and I appreciate it, but the rest of the world ends up realizing that the meaning behind the words used is different from the common understanding, and it’s entirely off-putting. Christians use common words and don’t realize that they are speaking an entirely different language from how the world understands those words. The challenge is that you are in the “world”. But arguing to a non-believer using christianese words comes across as you having a superiority complex and an “us-versus-them” mentality. Feel free to try to correct “erroneous” teaching, but this blog is in the world, not closed off in the Christian-realm. So common-use of definitions should be accepted over the un-common Biblical definitions. Just my 2 cents.
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#1 “Actually all people hate God before they are born again.”
Unbelievers may not say it or think it, but they do by there very nature.
Col 1:21 “Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.”
Mark 7:21-23 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, * covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
Romans 8:7 – For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
#2 Christlike – Well, I wouldnt call Bill Nye Christ-like if he ejects Christ. Besides, it wasn’t even true. Ham was far nicer and more respectful than Nye. Nye was smurky and somewhat condescending. So, not sure why she even made the claim.
Regarding Miano, I didn’t have a problem with is tweet about Scotland approving of Same-sex marriage. I can’t remember it, but he exposed their error and called for them to repent. Nothing wrong with that. And yes, I think that is loving. Just ignoring and congratulating them would not be love to me. Jesus pointed out peoples sins and called them to repentance and told them to “go and sin no more.” Was Jesus not loving?
#3 Ham made the statement toward the end of the debate. I think it was in the audience questions. I was going to tweet at you when he said that but forgot. I’ve actually heard him say that many times and years ago. He debated Hugh Ross a long time ago and said the same thing.
Also, it wasn’t about making converts. Regardless if anyone was saved or not, it’s should be a joyous time that Christ was proclaimed and exalted. I think the debate was respectful on both sides.
But remember, Nye started this whole think when he said teaching creationism is dangerous and threatens our way of life. Ham didn’t pick this fight, he was just trying to defend creationism.
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Hannah,
I appreciate your two cents and only wish to add this;
If we speak the word of God to unbelievers, we do not error. It is the Gospel that has the power to transform, and not based on man’s feeble effort or his own understanding.
I do agree with Kevin, all reject God, that is, until grace works in the heart. The only hope any sinner has is believing on the Lord Jesus and what He has done.
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JA, my twitter followers. LOL. I have to keep up with all the craziness out there.
But, you talk about whiplash!! You follow most of the same ones I do….;-)
I don’t even follow Ken Ham! 😉
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I’ll have a Ham and Cheese on Nye!!!!
I wish I had a dime for how many atheists know the Bible better than many Christians do. Do we really think that Bill Nye hasn’t heard the same ole “gospel” presentations before in his life? I’m sure that Bill Nye has read the Bible. I’m sure that many unbelievers have read the Bible. Many atheists that I debate with have read the Bible. So, what is Ken Ham REALLY trying to do?
I’ve noted this in my own blog in regards to the topic of this blog, in that this is really an INTERNAL debate within Christendom, having really nothing to do with the saved, or unsaved.
Ken Ham believes in Young Earth, and I don’t. Bill Nye believes in Old Earth, as do I, but I do not believe in evolution.
What Ken Ham really wants, is for all Christians to come on board with his beliefs. But I don’t. I won’t. But I am a Christian. I don’t care what his credentials are.
Presenting the Gospel isn’t about beating it over the head of Bill Nye until he submits. He’s heard it all before, as has so many atheists. What scientist has Ken Ham brought to Christ?
Ed
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lyn,
I do not believe that “all” reject God until grace works in the heart. Grace is given as a gift BASED on the individual turning his heart to the Lord…faith. Calvinists think that what I just said is considered “works based salvation”. Not true. In order for faith to be a work, it must have been a law. It never was a law, for the law is not of faith.
Ed
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Ed,
Faith is a gift, as Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches. This brief teaching says it better than I can –
[BTW- I am not a ‘fan’ of Calvin, nor have I ever read anything from him. My understanding comes from studying God’s own word and being taught by His Spirit]
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Here is that link Ed – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3dodm97SY4
I am not a fan of Calvin, nor have I ever read anything from him. I believe in the doctrines of grace because my studies of God’s word reveals them as truth.
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Ephesians does not say that faith is a gift. Grace is the gift thru faith. Our faith, God’s Grace. Without OUR faith, it is impossible to please God.
It isn’t “without God’s faith, it is impossible to please God.” It’s our faith.
Ed
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Ed, you didn’t watch the video did you? Please, view it- then make your comment on what is taught concerning the original Greek grammar construction of the text.
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I’ve already did my research on this topic. This is a reformed teaching, which is the Calvin version of the Sovereignty of God. I’ve been studying the Calvin, or reformed theology for a while now. You would be surprised as to how many Greek scholars there are out there, that can barely speak English, let alone Greek. Any theologian can make the Bible say what they want it to say…and the Calvinists tout the word “exegesis” as some how being a proof positive that they know what they are talking about. But they don’t. I know the talking points. I’ve listened to Dr. James White, and some of the others. I disagree with them. They think that God must give you faith before you can even believe, that Grace must be given to you prior to you converting your heart. Otherwise, you are doomed. I don’t buy into that at all.
Ed
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By the way, lyn…I’ve debated on that particular youtube channel before. If you were to research chapmaned24, you will see my comments. It’s been well over a year or so, however. It would take a while to find.
Ed
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Ed, you are exactly right on that. Faith is already with us at birth. We can choose to have faith in any kind of belief- whether atheism, hindu, muslim, or in Christ. Grace is what we will receive when we choose to put our faith in Jesus Christ.
Kevin, when you say “hate” what that really means is that because we are sinners we are already “at war or enemies” with God because of sin. God is at war with sin. The exact emotion of hate for God, however, is not completely true. Maybe, this needed to be clarified.
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I also meant to clarify that as believers we cease to be enemies or at war with God.
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trutst4himonly,
This is why I say that Ken Ham’s conflict really isn’t with atheists, but with other Christians. Calvinism version of Genesis, vs. all other Christians version of Genesis. We don’t agree. But I would sure like to have a list of names of the scientists that Ken Ham have brought to the Lord.
Ed
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Ed, how in the world is going into the original language and showing the construction of the Greek grammar a teaching from Calvin?!? The Bible wasn’t written in English, using the original language reveals what the text actually states. Sadly, many refuse to study the original language and stick with the English translations.
I encourage you to contact Jim McClarty and question him, he is very knowledgeable and a gracious man – http://pastorjimmc.com/.
BTW, he used to be the drummer for the rock band ‘707’ who had a hit entitled ‘I could be good for you’. This would make a good trivia question.
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HAHAHA
Excellent point, Hannah.
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Ed, I believe this is correct. I think that many Christians feel they are losing the “Christian” culture here in America. They think that by doing debates (not that I am against debates for they can be informative), conferences, protests; take over the government and businesses that somehow Christians can take it back for God. I feel this is a very dangerous approach and can lead to a theocracy. We who are Christians that don’t agree are seen as the enemy even more so than an atheist.
I use to be in this group of Christians that felt we had to stick our noses into everything just to make a point that we “will take our country back!” I was wrong and realize that this was not the way Jesus conducted affairs when He was here on earth. It does not mean a Christian should not get involve in politics or be a CEO for a company; I am just talking about how are priorities need to change in the way we conduct ourselves. Try on the “fruits of the Holy Spirit” (gentleness, loving kindness, patience, self control) for size and I guarantee you that these are the things that will produce heart change in the lives of unbelievers!
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trust4himonly,
“I use to be in this group of Christians that felt we had to stick our noses into everything just to make a point that we “will take our country back!””
I, too, almost fell for that, until I began seeing where certain buzzwords were coming from. And then I thought…uh, oh….I don’t believe what they believe. So, I had to research what they were really touting, in order to “take our country back”.
Ed
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lyn,
While you have a point about the Bible not being written in English, but in Greek (For the New Test writings), and the Hebrew for the rest of the Bible, with the exception of Aramaic for the book of Daniel, but…here is my point. The Bible has been indeed translated to English. It doesn’t have to be re-translated to English over and over and over and over again, now does it? Isn’t once enough?
That being said, I trust in the translation that I have, in that the people who translated it were linguists. Therefore, I do not need to study Greek in order to understand what I read in English if it has already been translated to English. I don’t need to know Greek to understand English. Someone else already did that for me many hundreds of years ago. That being said, I know how to read English.
So, what am I missing? That I must know Greek to understand? I must have a college education in order to grasp the gospel?
That’s no different than the Catholics making people learn Latin, speaking it, praying it, etc. Is Latin the official God language? Am I not able to understand God in my own language? Does God speak English, or only Latin, Greek and Hebrew?
I know I was sarcastic in the last few paragraphs, but I was for a reason. I’ve studied the Bible. I am topical driven. It’s not about a Greek word, here and there…it’s about the topic from A to Z, and sentence structure.
Not only that, the reformers see things in the carnal, not the spiritual. They remind me of the Pharisees. The Pharisees KNEW the scriptures. They knew it like the back of their hand. They were experts. But they didn’t have a clue of anything spiritual that was written in them. Oh, but they could sure tell you all about a Hebrew word. That’s my point.
Ed
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Mandy: I have found that just loving people for who they are speaks at a greater volume than pushing a message down their throat that they don’t want to hear. I know many people think that “relational evangelism” isn’t a proper way to witness to someone, but for my personality type, it is how I work. Inevitably, conversations turn to God at some point in the relationship and since I’ve already established a sense of trust with a person, they are more open to hearing about God.
Best wishes on your move. I have heard that it can be difficult to live in the heart of Mormon-land if you are not a Mormon. Hopefully that will not be your experience.
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Christians use common words and don’t realize that they are speaking an entirely different language from how the world understands those words. The challenge is that you are in the “world”. But arguing to a non-believer using christianese words comes across as you having a superiority complex and an “us-versus-them” mentality.
Hannah, you have just hit upon something very important here. You are absolutely right: Christianese is a whole separate language.
IN fact, some time ago, I appointed myslef the official “translator from Christianese to English and back again”. It was amazing how many times people were saying the same thing (but using different words) and/or using the same words to express totally different things.
All of which brings us back to the fact that nowhere, except in the realm of Christianese, does hate=disbelief=hate.
I will now cause a veritable bloodbath, by suggesting that the King James version has created a lot of these problems; people are so much in love with the poetry that they miss the fact that everyone else in the room is trying to escape to the nearest purveyor of adult beverages. [ 😉 Stand by to repel the cannonade].
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I would sure like to have a list of names of the scientists that Ken Ham have brought to the Lord.
The list follows, here:
[the end]
signed, Zooey (who, some years ago, had a spiritual crisis caused by Ken Ham’s snotty superior attitude and half-crazed babblings on the radio).
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Why not start with a list of unbelievers Ken has brought to the Lord.
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I think that many Christians feel they are losing the “Christian” culture here in America. They think that by doing debates (not that I am against debates for they can be informative), conferences, protests; take over the government and businesses that somehow Christians can take it back for God.
Many years ago, when I was young, [back when Wild Poodles roamed the earth], I took an elective high school speech class. One student raised his hand & asked the teacher, ” But when are we going to learn to debate?” to which she replied: ” You have to be juniors & seniors to elect this class. Debate is sophomoric. Ergo, that ship has already sailed. Next question”.
I was very proud of her that day. She was, you see, my mother.
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zooey111 – I wish I could hug you. . I totally agree with your comment that Christians “feel like they are losing the ‘Christian’ culture”. That’s how I felt most of my young-adult years going to Christian conferences with my father, learning how to defend the faith, YEC, and learning how to “evangelize”. It’s actually relaxing realizing that I’m tired of debating, conferences, protests, and campaigning. No more for me.
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I admit I hadn’t had time to watch the entire debate yet but I will say this. God tell us in Isaiah 55:11 that his Word will not return void. If even one person came to Christ thru all the news coverage, the debate, the interviews, ect.. then it was absolutely worth it 🙂
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I’m afraid more people were turned away from the Gospel because of this than were saved because of it.
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Also, the Bible is not a science text or a peer-reviewed paper that can be cited as a source because there is no way to peer-review the Bible.
Additionally, no one has been able to support YEC. All I have seen is people using the Bible to defend their point that was taken from the Bible (a debate no-no.)
2 Timothy 3:16 says (NIV) All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
All scripture is inspired (check)
Useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in the subject of righteousness.
Not Biology
Not Astrophysics
Yes how to be a good person so you can do God’s work on this earth.
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“Along the same lines, I can’t remember a single conversion story that started out “I hated God”, for every conversion story there is a reason behind it. Saul didn’t hate God before he became converted and was renamed Paul. Hate is such a strong word, I don’t like to use it unless absolutely necessary.”
Hannah – Paul persecuted the Church. He killed Christians. He hated them.
Also, I have heard many, many conversion stories, that start out “I was a sinner, a rebel against God, I hated God and everything he stood for.” This is very common because it’s true.
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JA
Really?
“Why not start with a list of unbelievers Ken has brought to the Lord.”
Where’s your list? Where’s anyones list?
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@opinemine You have zero way of knowing the impact the debate and the coverage had on people. God is in control and He is using it for His purposes!
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I haven’t read all of the replies, but the thing I got out of it, from reading comments from those on both sides of the issue, didn’t Mr. Ham use the old “bait-and-switch” tactic? Really, the idea was to have a debate about young earth creationism vs. evolution. So, people were expecting just that. A debate. Instead, Ken Ham took the opportunity of having an audience and talked very little about what everyone had taken time out of their lives to hear.
There are much better times and ways to present the gospel and I believe Ken Ham turned a lot of people off by choosing to talk about something other than the intended topic.
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Kevin, when you state that atheists ‘hate God’, I am reminded of children who say, when chided, “you HATE me!” as emotional manipulation. As Hannah says, how can atheists hate something they JUST don’t believe in? Quite different.
Also, if that kind of thinking is advanced by the god of the bible (as evidenced in scripture), I would suggest that as another reason for disbelief. Who wants to believe in something/one who sets up emotional blackmail, as in, if you don’t believe in me, you MUST hate me. Really??
Just so you know, I don’t hate Santa Claus, unicorns, OR mermaids. . by the same token, I don’t hate god(s). Not believing in them is a whole ‘nuther thing. ..
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Sarah,
That reminds me – – that is one more verse that certain “Christians” use to give themselves license to behave like jerks to unbelievers, just like the following one:
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Cry me a river if we’re losing that culture. It never should have happened to begin with.
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Kevin, do you agree with trust4himonly’s response above on “hate?”
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Well, yea, because I need blog material. LOL Ok, so stay around a bit and I’ll give you more whiplash over here 🙂 And I’ll give you way more than 140 characters to work with.
Seriously, I appreciate hearing your perspective and the opportunity to dialogue.
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@Julie Anne Yes, perhaps some professions Christians use Isaiah 55:11 as a license to behave like jerks 🙂 I would be willing to bet that it had a positive impact on Bill Nye as well as other unbelievers watching that Ken Ham and company treated Bill with such kindness and respect. They showed the world the we can disagree on important issues without hate. When we think of the behaviour of men like Tony and the rude and abrasive way he is treating unbelievers it was refreshing to watch Ken Ham show how to present the truth in love.
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Kevin: Look at this tweet from Miano today. This must be in response to yesterdays tweets (the storify I posted). He behaves rudely and then calls out the unbelievers who reacted strongly against him. Say what? This is a street preacher? What is he doing, whining because he was “persecuted” for being a jerk? Come on, Kevin, tell me his behavior is loving and kind and honorable and reflects Christ. I dare you.
BTW, “Chris” below is his right-hand man – – he mans his FB/Twitter accounts along side Miano.
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But ham did not present his hypothesis and support it with reproducible data. This was not a be nice or win souls for jesus contest, it was a debate about how we got here and that is what is not being addressed here.
Additionally, a person can be a Christian and accept evolution without one compromising the other making the winning souls for jesus argument irrelevant.
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A compendium of answers to questions that Nye put to Ham but could not be explored due to the limitations of the timeframe.
http://creation.com/ham-nye-debate
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Carmen, you may have missed this:
Romans 8:7 – For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
Notice it says, “For the mind that is set on the flesh (unbeliever/unbelieving mind) is hostile to God”….it doesn’t say “is hostile to THE BELIEF IN GOD…” but “to God.”
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Julie,
I agree with you. I don’t follow him but it seems he gets snarky and condescending at times.
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Julie,
“Kevin, when you say “hate” what that really means is that because we are sinners we are already “at war or enemies” with God because of sin. God is at war with sin. The exact emotion of hate for God, however, is not completely true. Maybe, this needed to be clarified.
Kevin, do you agree with trust4himonly’s response above on “hate?”
Yeah, pretty close. The unbeliever supresses the knowledge of God. Romans 1. They have a mind that is Hostile to God. I call this God hating. They hate God by their very nature because the refuse to believe in him and they actively choose not to believe in him.
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I keep coming back to Hannah’s great point about Christianese. If Christians redefine common words to mean something else, how will they communicate with nonbelievers?
Kevin will tell an atheist that he hates God. And the atheist will tell Kevin that he has no such emotion toward that mythical being. He might even say that he thinks the whole concept is lovely, that he wishes there were a loving God who created us and a beautiful heaven awaiting us after death. To quote Hemmingway, “Wouldn’t it pretty to think so?”
And then what? Will you then quote the Bible to tell them that they feel an emotion that they know they don’t feel?
Is this an effective way to witness?
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Marsha:
Look at the way Tony Miano behaves. Some of these guys are going to strongly dislike me for saying this, but whatever . . . it’s like mixing a witches potion: mix a little bit of this (the right Bible verse) with a little bit of that (Bible verses heard by an unbeliever), shake it all up (doesn’t matter if the unbeliever wants to hear it or not or how the Bible verse is presented), and then the Christian/witch has their magic potion and their job is done. They have been loving.
Now after having a Twitter conversation/debate this morning about the way Ham works (he says he doesn’t think Young Earth is a salvation issue, but says he doesn’t see how it can’t be logically – – so in other words, it is a salvation issue) – – – – I am completely convinced that some of these guys simply do not care about the way they come across, the hurtful words they use and their behavior. It’s all about law and obedience.
Feelings don’t matter. It doesn’t matter if someone is offended or hurt by the Gospel because “the gospel is foolish to those who are perishing” and so they expect that kind of response. And when they get that response, they sometimes give themselves a pat on the back for doing it right, for being “loving.” Do you see what I mean?
Here are Kevin’s words about loving with repentance/exposing error:
But God’s word does say something about a Believer’s conduct and some seem to miss that part (or excuse the behavior of their buddies on that issue because, after all, he is sharing the Gospel). And to that I say bull honky, NO, when you spread the Gospel with only verses and use bad conduct, you are spreading the gospel with hate in your heart towards the unbeliever. You are not being Christ’s witness. You are being a distraction to the gospel.
Tony Miano needs to shut up.
:::JA’s hair is a vibrant shade of red today, I see::::
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Marsha,
Yes! Exactly. In your scenario, you would point the atheist to the Bible, to God, to Christ, and show them that they are rebellious against God and that since they are a sinner, they need a savior.
You give them the LAW, so then you can give them GOSPEL.
If a patient has cancer, you tell them they have cancer and then you tell them the remedy.
The Gospel is offensive, so people will be offended.
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JA, you can be as nice as you want, but the Gospel will always offend. The point is for the Christian not to be the offensive one and get in the way.
I agree that alot of the evangelists get in the way of the Gospel with their attitude, etc.
But, that doesn’t mean you water down the message so as not to offend with the content. The content of the Gospel is offensive to an unbeliever.
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Why are you assuming it is watered down? Where did that come from?
It’s almost like you are saying you can’t present the gospel without offense, period, so the bad behavior by default comes along with it. I know you’re not saying this exactly, but I see so many excuse this behavior.
And once again, I think we need to take a look at what “offense” really means. The ESV doesn’t use offensive, but “folly.” So the Gospel is foolish/folly to those who are perishing. It also means a failure to understand.
But that does not give free license to be a jerk when presenting the gospel. We have 2 people: the giver of the message and the receiver. You’d think that the giver of the message, the one who hopes to share the Love of Christ and the Hope for Salvation would do it in a way that brings honor to the Lord. It is not a Believer’s responsibility to judge how the hearer responds, but to pay attention to how they love as Christ loves in action and truth. If the hearer/receiver does not receive the Word, we dust ourselves and pray that the seed that was planted will somehow grow – – maybe by another Believer who comes by to water it and nurture it and the unbeliever.
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Kevin, if you mean the the gospel is offensive to an unbeliever as in, “You CANNOT scare me into believing” – you’re absolutely correct. I have no use for the idea of a tyrannical, Old-Testament, fire-and-brimstone master who rules with an iron fist and expects the minions to do his bidding. Doesn’t appeal to me in the least. Nor should it appeal to most, I might add. Oh, and by the way, I probably just sin differently than you do. . .
Shouldn’t the message be about love, not hate?? That’s how I interpret Julie Anne’s take on things.
As my mother used to say, “You get more flies with honey than with vinegar”. . .
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Here we go again – – this seems to be the goal – – let’s offend FIRST.
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Lyn, the video you posted for Ed is a video by Sovereign Grace Ministries. That alone made me not trust it. And why trust the speaker? What are his credentials? Do you believe anyone who calls himself or herself a biblical scholar? I know many people who took Greek and Hebrew in seminary and could make similar claims but wouldn’t because they have integrity and know true scholars spend years studying. Many years.
Zooey111, my thoughts exactly when I read the King James Version – where is the tequila please? Considering it’s not a direct translation, I don’t get why it is so revered.
Kevin, I’ve known many children who had an infilling of the Holy Spirit and would never say they hated God before that or were even at odds with God. You paint such an adversarial picture that your attempt to share the Hood News is wiped out. Do we hate God or are we rejecting him when our faith or understanding is immature? Where do children or people with developmental disabilities or anyone who has not heard the story of God and God’s nature belong in your understanding?
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Let’s be clear – that was Good News. Not sure my spell check understands Christianese.
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You guys are missing my point.
You don’t first OFFEND. You first give the TRUTH. What’s the TRUTH to an unbeliever?
The Truth is an unbeliever is a sinner and rebellious in their nature against a Holy God. And as a result of their sin and unbelief, you will die in your sins and go to hell. Because the Bible says we all fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death. But God didn’t leave us in our sin. He gave us his Son, Jesus, to die on a cross for your sins, so you wouldn’t have to go to hell, but can enjoy ever lasting life with Him, if you place your trust in Christ and not in yourself.
The TRUTH offends an unbeliever. You can say it as nice as you can, but it doesn’t matter, the Truth that you are a sinner and a rebel and are going to hell is offensive. No one wants to be confronted with their true nature. That;s why people don’t come to Christ. Because they want to live their way on their own terms.
I mean, I guess you can say. Hey, God Loves you and has a wonderful plan for life. Just try him for 30 days and see him work miracles in your life. Is that the Gospel? I think not.
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I have a big question for Mr. Hamm. I actually saw this on the comments on another blog. A frequent statement I hear from the young earth group is, “How can we know that the old earth theory is true? We weren’t there to see it!” My response is. “How do we know the Bible is true? We weren’t there to see it! (the flood, etc)” 🙂
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Jackie C-
“Lyn, the video you posted for Ed is a video by Sovereign Grace Ministries. That alone made me not trust it.”
FYI-SGM lists no such church pastored by McClarty under its directory for Tennessee…where McClarty’s church is located. Can you share how you know this for a fact? Because a church is entitled, “Grace Christian Assembly, A Sovereign Grace Fellowship” does not mean it is an SGM member church.
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Diane – True.
Jim McClarty is definitely NOT part of SGM.
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Kevin –
I’m pretty sure I gave a brief statement of my faith earlier in the thread and I see that you have also in your last comment. So, we both agree on that. Where we disagree is the presentation of the gospel. You have a set of guidelines you follow and I know how you do it because I came from that.
I also saw a big failure rate, especially among young adults. Now, a lot of people from your camp would say, “they probably weren’t saved to begin with.” Yea, I know that rap. I don’t believe it. I believe that those who pigeonhole their interpretation of right doctrine can be sabotaging someone else’s faith and cause spiritual confusion.
You think law is paramount. I saw Ham refer to it – law/authority during the debate. I know exactly where you guys are coming from.
What I see lacking from your camp is good conduct (Col 4:5-6), and an unwillingness to concede that it’s okay to NOT believe YEC and be a Believer. What I hear from your camp is that you have all sorts of danger flags going off because you see the logical progression of one who does not believe YEC literally as one who cannot trust the rest of the Bible to be true.
I don’t need you to put your logical assumptions on my spiritual life. The reality is I don’t know whether God created the earth in 6 days, 6,000 days, 6,000 years and I don’t care. :::::gasp:::::.
It’s like arguing with my engineer husband. He has to know how things are put together, why they work the way they do – – that’s how his brain works. When he wants to tell me stuff like this, I have to carefully remind him: I don’t want nor need to know how something was made, all I need to know is that it was made. That satisfies me.
I am a mother who nursed all 7 babies. Every time I nursed my babies and saw how marvelous it was that I could gaze into their eyes and they could gaze into my eyes – and the distance between us was perfect, I saw God’s creation. When I saw that I could hold my children’s hands comfortably when walking with toddlers even though I am over 6 feet tall, I saw God written all over that. When I think of lovemaking and how beautiful our bodies were made for that act, God’s name is written all over that. I don’t need to know 6 days = creation. It doesn’t diminish my faith one iota and I’m getting miffed that people try to discredit my salvation or the legitimacy of my faith because I don’t believe what they believe.
The YEC debate is a colossal time waster.
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Kevin, why wouldn’t I tell an unbeliever that God loves him and has a wonderful plan for his life? Isn’t that true?
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JA, thanks for sharing. I never tried to discredit your salvation. I never said you had to be YEC to be saved.
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Great post, Julie Anne.
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Marsha,
You don’t know that he has a wonderful plan for their life? Maybe his plan for them is to become a missionary and be tortured for their faith? Maybe his plan for them is to be wrongly accused of a crime and spend the rest of their life in prison…..we don’t know what God’s plan is for anyone’s life so why give them a false sense that whatever it is, it’s going to be wonderful……
Besides, the Apostles never went around saying God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life……there is not one account of this type of evangelism in the Bible.
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Kevin, AGAIN – I’m telling you that you cannot SCARE me into believing because of a fantastical big, bad devil in a place called hell . .. in fact, I find that rather amusing and/or ludicrous. The threat might work on children but we all grow up. Then our brain takes over. If that’s all you’ve got in your arsenal, best of luck!
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Carmen, it’s not my job to convince you or an unbeliever. It’s my job to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ as written in the Bible. Then the rest is up to the Holy Spirit to do his work in the heart of you or that person.
You’re stuck on methodology and trying to figure out ways to get people saved. That’s not our job. Our job is to show the Gospel and that means telling people the truth.
I’ll take the truth of the Gospel in my arsenal over all of the worldly methodologies any day.
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We differ again, Kevin. Torture and false imprisonment are evil. It does not matter whether people are able to bring good out of bad situations (ie., others repent, the falsely imprisoned person becomes a blessing to fellow prisoners), God does not will evil to be done. Ever. I don’t believe in the prosperity ‘gospel’ because we live in an unjust world but I do believe that God wants only the best for us.
My husband once attended church with a prosecutor was fighting against a motion to have DNA tested which might clear an inmate who was sentenced to life before the test was available. Finally, the defense attorneys prevailed, the test cleared the man, and the real killer was identified. Was that man kept in prison for so long because God willed it or because of the prosecutor’s pride in believing he could not make a mistake?
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I greatly appreciate you saying that, Kevin. On our Twitter conversation earlier, however, I did get the feeling that you questioned it based on that logical progression of “if you don’t believe YEC, then you discredit the rest of your Bible” (my words are not right, but the idea).
Please, please be careful with that. If you had the guts to do it freely with me, I suspect it may be happening elsewhere. I see this all the time and it is so divisive.
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Wait a minute here. If you really believed that, then you wouldn’t question anyone who didn’t believe YEC. Which one is it?
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Kevin,
I did not hate God before I was born again.
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Kevin said:
JA responded:
Well, the Holy Spirit has to enlighten every believer on all kinds of doctrine and theology, but it doesn;t mean those who hold to one side can’t encourage others to believe the right side. ;-)…..lol
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Gary W,
You would be first among humanity.
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Kevin, you laugh, and I understand why you laugh, but right here in this very thread is my daughter, Hannah, whose faith collapsed because of the very thing you are laughing about.
Your word “encourage” frightens me. Absolutely frightens me. Because along with that “encouragement” is belittling someone else’s understanding based on your interpretation.
It’s no laughing matter to me. This is serious business. And when people like yourself or Ham feel the need to correct everybody based on their interpretation of the way things ought to be – – -and it causes one to get into such spiritual confusion that they abandon their faith, we have big-time problems.
Once again, the stuff that you’re fighting over is not a salvation issue, so I beg of you to consider what you are doing when you challenge or “encourage” others. Don’t make a big deal about YEC if someone doesn’t go along with your beliefs. Let it go – – there are much more important battles – – like people who have never heard the Gospel at all.
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Oops, just saw a mistake in my last post. The prosecutor was fighting against a motion to have DNA tested.
Mod note: I think I corrected it. If not, just post a sentence how you would like it worded and I’ll fix it. ~JA
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At this point, JA needs to step away from the keyboard. Please, Kevin. Get a grip of yourself.
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Diane – you are absolutely right. I misunderstood. And, Lyn, I apologize for misunderstanding. I still don’t trust someone whose credentials I don’t know or can verify.
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WOW Kevin!! Gary W. would be the first among humanity NOT to have hated God before he was born again?? Sheesh! Here we go with the “I know YOU better than you know yourself” – what can anyone say? “The Bible tells me so”??
You and Ken Ham are on the same page. . .The End
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Kevin, you’ve ignored the question of where children or those who lack the ability to understand – or those with mental disorders – fit into your view. The way you describe it, they’re all going to hell. Would that be the act of a loving God? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Christ came to bridge that gap. Period. People don’t have to believe the way you do in order to be with God when they die. But you’ll discover that some day.
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JA, sorry, I understand this is no laughing matter. I was trying to diffuse the heat, but it back-fired.
But, i’m confused, I haven’t tried to correct anyone. You are putting words in my mouth. You brought up the topic and it’s being discussed. I’ve barely even mentioned YEC. This whole thread has been on the Gospel, not even YEC.
Also, You keep bringing up your daughter but she has already stated that YEC is not to blame for her lack of faith.
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JA
“At this point, JA needs to step away from the keyboard. Please, Kevin. Get a grip of yourself.”
Not sure why that would make you update.
What about Romans 8:7 do you not agree with?– “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.”
HUMANITY is hostile to God before they are born again.
You don’t agree?
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Kevin, I know Paul’s conversion story, and the whole story of his life, but nice way to deflect. I never said he hated Christians. I said he didn’t hate God prior to his conversion. Paul himself says he was zealous for God (Acts 22:3) – why not just admit that I have a valid point? See what I’m saying about coming across as having a superiority complex? A lack of humility in Christians is what turns many unbelievers away.
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Carmen, your beef isn’t with me, it’s the God.
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Kevin, let me ask you a question since you seem to have it figured out. Can you embrace the mystery of God? So many “Christians” seem to feel they have to hold the absolute truth about everything. Yes, debate and intellectual discourse can be stimulating, but at some point it is between you and God. All this “noise” can be like clashing cymbals to many people’s ears. Not enough people take the time to be quiet and just listen to God. I sometimes wonder if people get so caught up in their opinion that they loose focus on those they are speaking to. The potential to love gets caught up in the noise. Remember, God comes down to where we are to call us to Him. We are creatures who crave connection. I pray that in pursuing relationship with others that we can open ourselves God’s mystery and love as He loves. Having to be “right” can distort our ability to see others through God’s eyes. Thank you JA for welcoming us all.
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Hannah, that is a good point. I never saw you make it.
I would say this: Paul was a zealot, just like the Pharisees were. The Pharisees claimed to love God and worship him, etc. Paul would have claimed the same. And Jesus said this about the Pharisees in John 8.
“You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
I would say that Paul was zealous for god i the sense that the Pharisees were, but not for the one true God.
That’s how I would see it.
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