Doug Phillips & Vision Forum, Homeschool Movement, Reconstructionist-Dominion Movement, Vision Forum

TW Eston, Co-Blogger at Jen’s Gems blog is a Rushdoony Fan and a Kinist?

Julie Anne

*     *     *

TW Eston blogs with Jen at Jen’s Gems blog who has been exposing Doug Phillips of Vision Forum.  It’s been pretty obvious that he is a fan of Rushdoony, but he’s also Kinist?

*     *     *

This is going to be a quickie because it’s past my bedtime.  My friend, R.L. Stollar, co-founder of Homeschoolers Anonymous blog was tweeting late last night and I got distracted when I should have been sleeping.  Sometimes the self-control is lacking.  Help me.  But if you’ve been following the Doug Phillips story and Jen’s Gems, you’ll see why.

The topic is TW Eston, the person who was posting around the internet when Doug Phillips’ story broke. I featured a couple of his comments as articles on my blog, then out of the clear blue, he posted an article at Jen’s Gems blog and somehow jumped into the co-blogger/moderator seat and has remained there. Here were the tweets which beckoned me to stay up later than I should have:

**

Screen Shot 2014-01-27 at 12.16.52 AM

Lana responded to Stollar’s tweet (the bottom tweet in the pile) and you can see our conversation that follows:

**

Screen Shot 2014-01-27 at 12.21.53 AM

**

When TW Eston first came around, I started snooping around and had seen a Twitter account and Facebook page, under his name, but I do not remember any activity on either one.

Now I see that the Twitter profile has been filled out.  Read the white print!   I already knew Eston was a fan of Rushdoony from his comments on my blog, that he couldn’t stand Phillips, but he is publicly saying he’s a KINIST?!!!   Here’s Wikipedia’s definition:

Kinism is the belief that the God-ordained social order for humanity is “tribal and ethnic,” and focuses on man’s duty to “love one’s own kind”. Kinists advocate the idea that extended families should live together in large groups. They believe the ideal and normative social order for families – and by extension communities, states and nations – is one defined by race and blood, not propositions or borders, and that this natural order forms the proper and lasting bonds of affection and loyalty for any legitimate society.  It is considered an offshoot of Christian Reconstructionism that originated among anti-immigration traditionalists in the Southern United States.(Source)

Source
Source

**

Isn’t that a creepy quote by Phillips that he used for the background of his Twitter profile?  And here’s a screen capture from Facebook in which he is friends with one friend, Jen.  I can pretty much bet that TW Eston does not really look like that kid.  Nice try, Eston.

**

Source
Source

***

Oh, and if that definition above wasn’t enough – – here’s a bit more from the same link:

“Kinism is a worldview embraced primary by some paleoconservatives and Christian Reconstructionists, who may subscribe to related views such as Neo-Calvinism, theonomy, postmillenialism, nationalism and protectionism, chivalry, patriarchy, courtship as a substitute for casual dating, “quiverfull” parenthood, homeschooling, agrarianism, distributism and Christian democracy, White separatism, or an exceptionally high view of Western civilization.”

304 thoughts on “TW Eston, Co-Blogger at Jen’s Gems blog is a Rushdoony Fan and a Kinist?”

  2. Gaslighting is a great term for what TW said. I noticed how “nuanced” his reply was, i.e., it was not at all straight forward. It appears that he is hiding something. It’s kind of an insult to people’s intelligence that he thinks folks can’t read between the lines.

    Like

  5. ” I’ve made the mistake of supporting some survivors who, in the end, did nothing to stop repeating the spiritual abuse tactics that they appear to have learned quite well. ”

    @Cindy , yes! I had defended Jen’s blog before, but I just keep seeing the same bullying tactics being used by TW that I can’t defend it any more. Both of them seem to be playing word games.

    I’d like to believe that their posts about VF and DP are true, but I feel like they’ve discredited themselves. It’s really, really disappointing!

    Like

  9. Cindy,
    Thanks for your comment about “pushback.” That’s where I’m at right now.
    I’ve still got lots more questions (for another time). Please bear with me.

    Like

  10. Did you all realize this was available for your reading pleasure:
    http://www.boernechristianassembly.org/letters/2008/01/faith-pca-responds.php

    http://www.boernechristianassembly.org/letters/2008/01/living-water-fellowship-respon.php

    http://www.boernechristianassembly.org/letters/2008/01/response-of-boerne-christian-a.php

    http://www.boernechristianassembly.org/letters/2008/01/letter-from-vision-forum-board.php

    Gives you a little more background.

    Like

  11. Shannon, thank you for the link to Christiankinism. I was horrified at how open they are with their backward thinking. For anybody who posts here, I ask, who listens to these people? I understand it plays on some people’s deepest fears of losing power and privilege, but other than that it seems fairly ignorant. Again, I left the church because I saw so much attacking and judging people who were “different” than them. They became an exclusive club that others couldn’t join because they were too Black, too, female, voted Democrate, or sent their children to school with “those people”. These are the type of groups and ideas that are causing our young people to doubt God. Too many people want their God in a box and will disenfranchise other groups in order to maintain power. Young people generally see through this small minded ness, but identify this bad behavior with Christian beliefs. The older generation needs to mirror Christ’s love to expose these dangerous beliefs as not part of God’s people. To me that is the biggest imperative for our world. Let the light exposé the dark. God’s love holds more power than these petty self-righteous bigots. How do we as believers compel others to embrace each other as beautiful creations of God, instead of being drawn in by deceptive practices? This blog is definitely a start! JA thank you for your consideration and I will honor your request. I offer an apology to a mom and anyone that I have offended. I also appreciate everyone who is keeping me up to speed on this situation. Ann

    Like

  12. “But there are some want it to be only about DP instead of a larger picture of evil that has infected many areas of the church. There IS a blog for that.” Lydia

    That blog is Jen’s blog. And yes, Lydia, my intuition tells me the exact same thing: The message IS for JA to leave everything alone but DP. But I would be thrilled to be wrong.

    I am curious, have these same commenters been telling TW Eston & Jen over there on her blog to just get along with JA? At least they’ve been consistent with JA here. JA seems to have to keep answering over & over again to the exact same commenters on different posts on different days why the rest of it needs to be exposed.

    ” Why are you and Jen being snarky with each other? Is this how we are suppose to act? Again I am not pointing fingers, I just don’t understand and do not want to see you both get derailed. I wish you two could either keep it private or at least “tolerate” each other.”

    Question: Can anyone who frequents Jen’s blog verify these comments are being made there by the much concerned Ann & TIA? Or is it just one-sided? Hmmm. Again, I hope I’m wrong.

    To be clear, I have never said they should be silent. By all means, comment away. What I’m saying is JA shouldn’t be silent on the rest of it. Deception needs to be exposed.

    Pass the popcorn is right.

    P.S. JA, asked a question on 1/27 @ 8:34PM: “Leslie raises a good point. Is this “infighting” helpful or necessary? What is the purpose of this?”

    I answered it. Anyone else want to take a stab? 😉

    Like

  13. Pamp09, how did you find these letters? It appears that the church violated the couple’s privacy by revealing their marital issues to the whole church. Aren’t pastors and elders required to keep confidentiality with matters that occur in the sessions. I can’t believe the church wasn’t served with a huge lawsuit. I just have to laugh whenever I see “disloyal to church elders”. Talk about distorting scripture. The men are just trying to build their personal fiefdoms! Ann

    Like

  15. “I can’t believe the church wasn’t served with a huge lawsuit. ”

    Oh, you can sue all the time. It is just very hard to win. Most megas have lawyers on retainer. People need to understand some things very clearly when they join any church. It is considered voluntary. We are considered adults who make voluntary decisions to join the church. It is considered you knew the rules and agreed to them. You chose to accept it. And if you ever decide to go and work for one, you take your future in your own hands. They are not beholden to labor laws, either.

    Not even all states require that pastors or counselors affiliated with a church report molestations.

    Maybe it is time to rethink “what is church”?

    Like

  16. Ann, those letters were put up after Jen started her Jen’s Gems site back around 2006-07. She already put most of her story out first. They had to have some way to defend what they said happened. The Epsteins were really a mess, and Jen continues on in her dysfunctional ways. She says she is doing this out of “love” for Doug, for his good. Imagine what life would be like if she hated a person!

    Like

  17. I didn’t check replies until now and saw that people asked about the anti-Semitism of T.W. Eston. Here:

    http://jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/doug-phillips-affair-or-criminal-clergy-sexual-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-21690

    “P. Fury, I concur that it’s not “anti-Semitic, or racist” to point out that Doug Phillips, in many respects, thinks and acts more like a Jew than a Christian. In his behavior he’s certainly gives no indication that he’s a Christian. At the very least he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

    And one from Jen:

    http://jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/doug-phillips-affair-or-criminal-clergy-sexual-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-21855

    Jen: “Mercy Rose, you are very correct. His interpretation of everything is very twisted and I know no Jews who believe the way Doug Phillips does. I think the issue here is that most Christian churches tend to preach far more from the New Testament than the Old Testament, and since Doug does not preach from the New Testament, and since he grew up in a Jewish home (his father’s side), there is speculation that those two may be connected. If there is a connection there, Doug has certainly twisted that thinking greatly.”

    I’m Jewish. Those are anti-Semitic dog whistles. Several people called them out for it, but that’s when I gave up on ever interacting with Jen or Twit Eston for any reason, and why I fully believe he could be a Kinist who would sell an openly anti-Semitic work like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

    Like

  19. It doesn’t matter to me whether Jen’s account of what happened or Doug Phillip’s account is correct or some mixture of the two. I think covenant agreements are just plain wrong. If a couple isn’t a good fit for a congregation, they should be able to go elsewhere without public denunciations, shunning, or the necessity to get formal permission. This should be true whether the couple is just looking for a church where there are people in the same stage of life or with the same interests or whether there are theological differences. If someone changes their beliefs, why would you be upset with them for wanting to find a church with compatible theology? If a church is going to excommunicate people who have already left and insist that other churches reject them, then they should expect battles on the Internet.

    Like

  21. @ Cindy:

    I’m glad to see you’re enjoying Scarlet Letters, BTW. Your site was the one that helped me really start to understand the patriarchy issues, and you seem to be hands-down one of the most thorough and knowledgeable bloggers in that field, so it means a lot to me that you “approve” my little blog. 🙂

    Like

  22. @Hester

    No but they’re pro-Vision Forum, pro-RCJr, pro-patriarchalist, etc.

    http://baylyblog.com/blog/2013/11/whats-aquila-report

    In the above post, one of their bloggers takes umbrage at the Aquila Report’s publishing of expose articles about Doug Phillips and asks “Why are so many of the articles by women?”

    And this post by Tim Bayly himself leaves no doubt as to where they stand: http://baylyblog.com/blog/2013/11/why-evangelical-and-reformed-gnostics-hate-doug-wilson-rcjr-and-doug-phillips

    Like

  25. Nicholas – You are absolutely rocking’ it with the links. I hereby dub you SSB Link King.

    Thank you! Now, as king, will you order the clock to stop so that I can spend some time and read them?

    Like

  26. Here’s more appalling content from the Bayly blog.

    David and Tim Bayly argue that “sometimes it’s the children themselves who initiate the sin” of child sexual abuse: http://baylyblog.com/blog/2011/08/souls-sodomites-destroyed-children-are-next

    In an article on incest, Tim Bayly writes:

    “My wife and I spent most of the past week out of state working with the elders and pastor of a PCA congregation dealing with sins of incest in a large homeschooling family. Much like war, the horror of incest conspires to silence the application of God’s Word to the sinners and victims… It’s so obvious–why say it? Why beat a man when he’s down? This applies to the victims, but also the offenders. It seems like blaming the victim to inquire about extortion or violence against civillians when the man you’re talking with is crying over the death of his squad member. So also it seems like blaming the victim to inquire of a young woman crying over the sexual crimes her older brother committed against her to ask whether she came to enjoy and initiate the sin?” [END OF QUOTE]

    http://baylyblog.com/blog/2012/11/pastoral-care-times-war-and-incest

    Tim Bayly is again arguing that a victim of child sexual abuse shares in the guilt of her abuser.

    The Bayly blog is one of the most vile, appalling blogs that I have seen. Doug Wilson has this blog on his blogroll as well.

    Like

  28. I’m back. I went off the blog for 2 days because I was embarrassed about my snarky comment about sharks. I thought for sure I’d be trashed or moderated for my comment. I’m glad I came back. I pretty much have dropped out the the church scene for about 4 years because I felt it was detrimental to my spiritual health.. So a lot of what you all are saying I don’t get. My church experience has been for the most part mainline churches, with one exception into what may have been a cult. Which is why I am so cynical/ The reason I got on this blog the first place is my concern for My Daughter and 8 grandchildren. Anyway I am glad you are all so gracious to me.

    Like

  29. “Tim Bayly is again arguing that a victim of child sexual abuse shares in the guilt of her abuser.”

    Oh Hell no!!!!!!!!!!! 😦

    Was it MY fault what my brother did to me when I was 4 years old????? Just ask my grandma. As far as she was concerned, it was. Boys could do no wrong. Being female is a sin. 😦

    Like

  30. Julie Anne at January 29, 2014 @ 12:37 PM – I found Jen’s response to me very disturbing. I’m not sure how something could possibly be sexual abuse and cheating. Would she say those who have been victims of spiritual abuse should also be labeled as having poor judgement and were equal participants? It actually wouldn’t even be the same since “cheating” and “affairs” have such negative meaning in our society, especially in a Christian community-they carry terrible weight from which someone’s reputation may never recover. There seems to be a double standard over there. I don’t have a lot of absolutes but this subject is one for me, and so I will not be visiting her blog anymore.

    TIA at January 29, 2014 @ 1:52 PM – it’s probably true that much of the world is unfamiliar with the difference between clergy sexual abuse and an affair. Most of the mainline denominations now require regular trainings for their ministers in it so they get it, much like what therapists have to learn. What we need now is to educate the people in the pews on it. So many people idolize ministers and see them as having a closer relationship with God. This makes them vulnerable and more susceptible to being victims. Obviously some clergy likes it that way, but it’s not healthy. When we affirm the spiritual value of all humans, we give people power, power that may protect them in an abusive relationship.

    Taunya @ January 29, 2014 @ 1:24 PM – Could it be that they are also resistant to identifying it as abuse because they have so often heard these stories and judged the women (an assumption as to gender) as guilty too? I feel guilty for some similar judgments I made 20 years when I went to a church with a minister who was guilty of abuse. I heard the stories and looked at the named women with judgment in my heart. Then I was educated and heard personal stories and what ministers said to women (I was only involved in women’s groups though men can be and are abused too), and I came to understand how it is abusive. I never heard the stories of the women in my church but I can imagine and I still feel guilty for jumping to conclusions. We tend to want to avoid anything that reminds us of our own failings.

    Thanks to you all for supporting me on this issue. I had one supporter over there, but it’s hard when you feel like you’re hitting a brick wall and words are being twisted. Sometimes you just want to shut up and walk away (which I have to do over there now since I’ve been accused of ad hominem attack 🙂

    Like

  31. @Leslie welcome back! I understand about taking a break from church my family and I have not been attending church for the last 3 months or so after two years of not belonging to any church and just showing up at random churches once or twice a month. I completely understand where you are coming from so I understood your sharks comment. Don’t be embarrassed we have all been hurt and we have all reacted in anger as a result. You’ve come to the right blog!

    Like

  32. Leslie said:

    I’m back. I went off the blog for 2 days because I was embarrassed about my snarky comment about sharks.

    HA – no way, José!!! I thought it was definitely appropriate. Yes, it was snarky, but it was right on, too. I’ve known medical professionals who work in a hospital with a lot of death. They let off steam by saying stuff that a lot of us would find very inappropriate, but it is helpful for them to be able to work in that very stressful and emotional environment. They have to do something with the heavy emotions they are feeling.

    The same thing happens here. We have to let off steam. This place can get heavy. So, while Barb laughed at my YouTube video of the Jaws movie theme (and it was funny), I have to tell you that the film represented to me what it felt like being under the power of a spiritually abusive pastor. I was a kid when I watched Jaws and probably because I’m a musician, anytime I hear that music, I can instantly go back to that scared and vulnerable feeling. So, I posted it for a couple of reasons: to let off steam and laugh, and to identify that spiritual abusers really are scary.

    Like

  34. Nicholas –

    Both of those articles are old. Was there something new that they wrote? Yes, it’s vile what they are saying, but it’s old information.

    Like

  35. Many of them are very racist and misogynous in my opinion. Dabney says that it’s sinful to teach a black man to read, for example.

    If Dabney is who I think he is, wasn’t he considered a hardcore racist even by 19th Century Confederate States standards?

    Palmer says that a woman’s personality is absorbed into her husband’s at marriage, as if Adam is taking back his rib.

    This is just plain creepy.

    The bloated spider digesting his prey.

    What has come out of theonomy in recent years is what I call spiritual eugenics or survival of the spiritually fittest. The “elect” are seen as better than everyone else, so there is no duty to be kind or loving to people outside of their “new Israel.”

    Using the terminology of that promoter of applied eugenics, the NSDAP, the “elect” are Herrenvolk and all others are Untermenschen. And the NSDAP carried out eugenics to its final conclusion. (If it wasn’t for their example, Eugenics and Master Race Theory might still be respectable mainstream science.)

    Like

  36. @CindyK:

    It’s an interesting question, though. It just always struck me about what I called the Uber Adam in these Theonomy focused circles — not directly in those terms but in the focus of how everyone wanted to get back to the pure heart of the faith.

    Isn’t that what the Taliban claimed as their motivation? To get back to the Pure Heart of Their Faith?

    And look at the Perfect Islamic Society they set up and ruled (in Al’lah’s Name, of course) in Afghanistan.

    Like

  37. Bridget,
    You said to Nicholas, “Both of those articles are old. Was there something new that they wrote? Yes, it’s vile what they are saying, but it’s old information.” One is from 2011 and one is from 2012. That’s not old. It’s current and relevant. And the articles contain misleading information used to prove a point too.

    Like

  38. Bridget, this is new information to me and a number of others here. One of the reasons I am here is that my husband and I are looking for a denomination and church. We want to avoid churches whose structure and values enable spiritual abuse and I in particular want to avoid churches that disapprove of liberal feminists. I had not heard of church covenants, family integrated churches, dominism, patriarchy, or quiverful ideas and I am stunned to find that some churches actually embrace racism. I am getting quite an education here and on the Wartburg Watch blog.

    Like

  39. Looks like the the split between Jen and Larry was ugly. While the spat has been largely expunged from FB, some shocking bits remain. See the third comment down – [mod removed link]

    Like

  40. Wish to remain anonymous:

    I checked out the comment and it’s really over the top – so over the top that I question the validity of it and don’t feel right about posting it here. We don’t need to know the personal details of someone’s divorce. Divorce is difficult, period.

    Like

  41. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Isn’t that what the Taliban claimed as their motivation? To get back to the Pure Heart of Their Faith?

    And look at the Perfect Islamic Society they set up and ruled (in Al’lah’s Name, of course) in Afghanistan.

    It’s all ideological totalism, and I agree that they are the same in that sense. That’s why I have Robert Lifton’s eight criteria of thought reform listed in the sidebar of my blog. I think of that list of the patterns that we humans fall into when we seek to accomplish and ideological goal at any price, letting the end(s) justify the means we use to achieve them. I also think of these patterns as what emerges as a predictable pattern of behavior when we use the works of the flesh to accomplish some great and lofty end goal. A certain set of things work well when it comes to manipulating groups of people, with human nature being rather predictable.

    The ends are always lovely and good in the heart of them, if you accept the presuppositions of those who are reaching for them. But the means end up trying to level human beings in a bureaucratic way, as if we are creatures of black and white instead of wonderful, complicated creatures of paradox. Vision Form tried to enforce “normativity” through conformity to their preferred standard — that which they thought was best for their group and for them (and everybody else). It’s all neat and tidy on the surface. In that sense, it is like any group that sets after some lofty endpoint but either ignores or downplays core ideas of ethics — things like blessing those who curse you, loving your enemies, and following the Golden Rule. Everything is sacrificed to advance what Lifton called the Sacred Science — people must pay any price to prove the ideology and the groups leaders as above any reproach (even when they are not).

    Like

  42. Aw, Hester. I’m so glad that you are able to delve into the specifics of the VF and now just the NCFIC teachings. I can’t stand to spend too much time on them, and my husband says that I can’t read/listen to them while he’s around because I rant and rave.

    I’m so glad that you’re doing excellent work. I don’t have the stomach for it anymore, and life is short. 😉

    Like

  43. Please let me say. . I am a Christian. I am not involved with this movement. But it has fascinated me. The underbelly of it is a very sad thing, and all these comments are awesome. WHY? Because it is INFORMATION. It is DATA. It is EDUCATION for people who don’t know, don’t know they don’t know, and sometimes. . don’t care until you can see how many things are relatable on so many levels.

    People need to know– so these things don’t happen again.

    They don’t need to know how many ways possible it is to trash someone, like some blogs are doing. They just need to know what is on the up and up. So that things stay above board.

    Thank you, Julie Ann. I love your blog!

    Like

  44. P.S. I like how you are not afraid of people disagreeing and discussing, like when you said, So hey, should we have a separate thread for this?

    You didn’t try to shut people down or shut them up. . . but just give them an alternate road to communicate.

    You rock!

    Like

  45. “I am a Christian. I am not involved with this movement. But it has fascinated me. The underbelly of it is a very sad thing, and all these comments are awesome. WHY? Because it is INFORMATION. It is DATA. It is EDUCATION for people who don’t know, don’t know they don’t know, and sometimes. . don’t care until you can see how many things are relatable on so many levels.”

    Shelby, I can relate to where you are coming from. Back in 2006 I was doing what Marsha was doing, researching. I had come out of the evil seeker movement and was looking to see what else was going on out there in what tries to pass itself off as Christendom. I came across the Sproul/Ligonier scandal (He was a darling of the YRR/SBC crowed at the time..still is) and discovered this whole dark Christianese world I had NO idea existed. From there it was VF, Doug Wilson, Patriarchy, reconstructionism, kinism, and other assorted fruitcakes making bank off Jesus, etc, etc. I was blown away.

    But your point about things being relatable is so true! Let me give you one example. I had read up on Doug Wilson back around 2007, including his blog. I had no idea such Pastor Pasha’s existed. Incredibly vile. An insider left and started a blog about the” kirk”. It was like another world. And a world similar to what VF must have been like. When RC Sproul, Jr was excommunicated he ran to Wilson who ordained him.

    (By the way, if you guys did not have the chance to read Sproul Jr’s online Memoirs, “Ligoneir Tales”, you really missed seeing in print his narcissism and bizarre thinking. It was taken down during the scandal. I remember, he referred to the rich woman who originally funded Ligoneir as a “white witch”)

    Now, fast forward 6 or so years. Guess who has Doug Wilson in to teach young pastors? John Piper! He invited Wilson to teach at the Desiring God conference. Pretty soon, Doug Wilson is the darling of The Gospel Coalition and being promoted all over the place in the Reformed/YRR movement. And that is just ONE example of how this stuff starts moving into other places. I started seeing SBC young pastors quoting Wilson on blogs. So I would ask if they knew about Black and Tan or Slavery As it Was….and they had NO idea what I was talking about. They don’t do their homework. If their favorite guru promotes someone, they assume too much.

    This stuff is becoming more mainstreamed and those who do their homework need to share it!

    Like

  46. Jackie C,

    .You said…. I had one supporter over there, but it’s hard when you feel like you’re hitting a brick wall and words are being twisted. Sometimes you just want to shut up and walk away (which I have to do over there now since I’ve been accused of ad hominem attack 🙂

    I am proud of you for standing your ground. You are very courageous for going up against TW and Jen….You did nothing wrong. I did walk away from posting comments on Jens blog, but I needed to for me.

    [mod note: removed content p/request]

    Thank you Julie Anne for being the gracious person you are and for not shutting people up with they are off base like I was…lol.

    Like

  47. Marsha and Jackie C –

    My question to Nicholas was is there something new that the Bayly Brothers wrote? I was referring to his 7:40pm comment. I asked because I was hoping he would link to it if there was. His comment made it sound to me like those were current articles, but they were old to me. I didn’t realize he had linked several other articles and was just adding these to the mix.

    Like

  48. Shelby – thanks for your kind words. It’s great having you here. Many times I’m learning right along with some of you!

    Teresa N said:

    Thank you Julie Anne for being the gracious person you are and for not shutting people up with they are off base like I was…lol.

    You’re very welcome. I think at least part of that comes from the experience of being shunned. We watched as people we loved remained at Beaverton Grace Bible Church and built up a pastor who has no business pastoring. We knew the power he had over them and yet we also knew how long it took for us to see the light.

    Of course not everyone reading here is in a church situation like that, but if you look at it like this: Doug Phillips was like a powerful leader in the Homeschool Movement group. People put him up on a pedestal just like people do for cult leaders. Although Phillips did not have the power to control the masses outside of Boerne Christian Assembly, his words carried weight and people clung to his teachings/practices like they would with a cult leader.

    Some are still wanting to defend his ways/practices and say “don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater” with regard to the sex abuse. Others are looking beyond the sex abuse and realizing that the sex abuse was only one symptom of a very bad system of abuse. To get to that point takes time, because they have to dismantle years of ideologies they’ve learned. That’s quite a process.

    That is what we deal with a lot here and why people are in so many different places of understanding. That is also why those who have learned much need to be the first to extend grace, yet try to shine the light of truth. It’s a balancing act because we don’t want to scare someone away in our zeal to share that truth that has brought us sweet freedom. But most of us know that WE have to own something – – it can’t be forced upon us. That’s what our guru cult leaders did to us – they used force and control.

    That, in a nutshell, is why hopefully you will see grace here. It is a grace that comes from hard knocks, unfortunately. But it’s also a grace that says, if only one more person can be freed from spiritual tyranny, then it is all worth it. ::Darn it, who stole my Kleenex?::: The grace that you see has come with a personal price that we are still dealing with this many years later.

    Like

  49. Julie Anne … your last comment (Jan. 30, 8:04 am) seems an appropriate milestone marker for what has been almost exactly a two-year journey for you in blogging on spiritually abusive people and systems, and recovery for abuse survivors. Thank you for the sacrifices you’ve made to make a difference for so very many others who have read (or will eventually read) what you’ve said. You’ve been a beacon on the roadway to redemption … and the dialogs here continue to bring the blessings (and challenges!) of expanding our understanding on these topics, and our healing.

    Like

  51. One day I hope to hug Brad IRL. Brad, you’ve been such a support to me. I’ll never forget the day I was reading TWW during the media frenzy when my story went viral and this guy named Brad had been collecting data on how fast and far my story had travelled, how many blog hits I was getting, etc. I thought, why???? and who is this um-strange man who has time to do this? Now I know. It’s a man who is a survivor and has been in the spiritual abuse survivor community and been analyzing spiritual tyranny for decades and using that information to educate and support survivors. I don’t think I would/could have maintained this blog without your support. Thank you, friend.

    Like

  52. Julie Anne wrote:
    “Some are still wanting to defend his ways/practices and say “don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater” with regard to the sex abuse. Others are looking beyond the sex abuse and realizing that the sex abuse was only one symptom of a very bad system of abuse. To get to that point takes time, because they have to dismantle years of ideologies they’ve learned. That’s quite a process.”

    I know a lot of people who only see DP’s “affair” (they don’t even recognize it as abuse), and don’t see any problems beyond that. My eyes have been opened to much more than that, but like you say it takes time to sort through everything.

    We have friends that are involved with ATI. I checked out the application form–scary! They ask for more personal information than required for a passport! What’s a good way to warn people? What if one spouse is really “gung ho” for it and the other one is just kind of going along with it or actually has reservations/doubts/fears?

    Thanks for any help you can provide.

    Like

  55. It was believed that Piper befriended Wilson because of NT Wright.

    The short history on that without getting into these theologies: NT Wright wrote about the New Perspectives on Paul (and I find his articulation better than others). Many Calvinists took issue with this, saying that the New Perspectives argued against salvation by faith alone and creates a focus on works. Piper wrote a book challenging Wright’s position.

    Doug Wilson got friendly with NT Wright because some of this content addresses some of the same things that Wilson’s Federal Vision theology seeks to advance. It is said that Wright’s ideas heavily influenced the development of Federal Vision. Four Presbyterian denominations seemed Federal Vision to be false teaching and Romanist, and as a result of this, Wilson and Steve Schlissel withdrew from the RPCUS to avoid getting defrocked. This is when Wilson formed his own denomination, the CREC. He just re-ordained himself, Schlissel, and then RC Sproul, Jr. when he was later defrocked by the RPCGA for his advancement of paedocommunion and his other nefarious activities. NT Wright also criticized the Federal Vision teachings.

    Wilson got mad at Wright and challenged him, saying that he was playing for the wrong team. That Wright was a turncoat. Wright comes back and says that he plays for only one team — the truth.

    What does that have to do with Piper?

    Piper was so tickled that Wilson got so nasty with Wright that he rewarded him by inviting him to speak at his conferences. It’s a matter of “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” And then, Piper came out as in support of Federal Vision of all things, saying that people who reject it are just dumb. The best minds in four Presbyterian denominations who got together to deliberate the validity of Federal Vision come together independently to make a determination about the validity of Federal Vision, but John Piper knows better. They are just dummies?

    (And concerning Wright who changed his mind and became an egalitarian, for both Piper and Wilson, it just gives them more reason to be angry.)

    I say all that to demonstrate the level on which Piper operates. He’s arrogant, childish, and I don’t think that he understands justification at all. He spent too much time at Bob Jones U. I don’t understand at all why he is popular. I guess it’s because he can cry on the pulpit on command, and he says stuff that makes no sense, so people think that he’s deep.

    Like

  56. (You can figure out when I’m wound up about something — I start getting redundant in the same sentence.) I should proofread what I write before I hit “post comment.”

    Like

  58. “I say all that to demonstrate the level on which Piper operates.”

    That is EXACTLY how he operates. Nevermind all the serious problems with Wilson (Patriarchy, Pro Slavery, Authoritarian, etc)…including match making for a convicted pedophile. (Let us hope there are no children from that match)

    “He’s arrogant, childish, and I don’t think that he understands justification at all.”

    No, Piper does not. And it is sending tons of people down a very wrong road because they love this passionate guru with lots of flowery verbosity.

    Thanks for sharing the history of that. I had no idea about the NT Wright/Doug Wilson angle. I DID know Piper tried very hard to go after Wright and marginalize him. Wright makes Piper look like a 1st grade scholar.

    Like

  59. Cindy K. –

    “I guess it’s because he can cry on the pulpit on command, and he says stuff that makes no sense, so people think that he’s deep.” Yes!

    “. . . and he says stuff that makes no sense, so people think that he is deep” can also be applied to a certain reformer and his beliefs that are only to be spoken of on his own thread at SSB.

    Like

  60. Julie Anne,

    I just didn’t like the convoluted wordiness of what I wrote. Particularly, it was that monster sentence about these best minds in four Presby denominations… Yuk! 🙂 But it conveys the point well enough.

    (This happens to me when I get really upset about a topic.)

    Like

  61. I watched Vision Forum and the catalog pictures and the manly adventures with fascination. How could this be true? How could people really think like this?

    But it was true!
    They did think like that!
    They DO think like that!

    What I think is interesting is that now that it is not fashionable to like the head of the organization, people are denouncing it right and left. But guess what? They have brains in their head. At some point, at some juncture in the road, you have a clear choice to go a certain way.

    When the way becomes tawdry and UNfashionable amongst your friends, how easy it is to point the finger and say it is horrific. But they are the ones who were on the bandwagon!

    So I think that now, there is a bandwagon of saying how unfashionable everything is.

    There are people who are clear headed and responding to things with a level thought process.

    But there are also people just reacting.

    And sometimes I think that if you are a reactive person, it is easier to jump on, just the next bandwagon.

    That said? Yes. The concept of spiritual abuse that so many of you have shared here does exist.
    I am not discounting that.

    But think about this part. . . .absolutely nothing changed, except for the fact that the leader of the thing, was dethroned due to disgrace. And suddenly the kingdom was a bad kingdom.

    The kingdom was/is the same even without the leader. It is still there/here.

    Do you all think it was just the whole experience, being swept away in popular thought, that made that kingdom stand?

    Do you think that kingdom is still out there, will realign itself with other divisions of thought that follow the same value and code?

    I am sorry if this doesn’t make sense. I am trying to make sense of it myself.

    Like

  62. Here is another question(s) 🙂

    Is the patriarch movement in direct correlation with the homeschool movement?

    What exactly does the South have to do with the Reconstructionist thing they talk about? I don’t get that part. Is it that they are sorry how the Civil War played out and they are mad about that? Is it that they believe in certain groups of people being better then others?

    Is it me, or is it just freaky, how these dads want the daughters to attend them like they are waiting on them, waiting for them to decide they can marry someone or not, not getting educated. . .?

    I feel like it is safe to ask those questions without someone saying ‘GO TO TIME OUT” like they do on other blogs. 🙂

    Thank you in advance, if you can inform me on these things. Just trying to understand. 🙂

    Like

  63. Actually Shelby, I don’t think that there has been much bandwagon jumping in the denunciation of Doug Phillips and Vision Forum. The people who are publicly discussing the flaws in his conduct, theology, his views of women, race, and childrearing, etc., have long been sounding the alarm. There are plenty of people who continue to follow Phillips’ teaching even though they are disappointed by his behavior. I would like to think that his hypocrisy would wake some people up but if so they aren’t posting on the Internet to my knowledge.

    Like

  64. So, Marsha, do you think it really hasn’t made a difference, other than giving people who thought there were flaws to begin with, just another flaw?

    Like

  65. I stand by saying that until this happened, I did not see all the negative publicity of this organization. . .across the mainstream. Example, the Huffington Post.

    Like

  66. Shelby I agree with Marsha. Many that you see speaking out against Vision Forum have been doing it for years. Those who were still involved with Vision Forum at the time of Phillips’ fall seem to be in the “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water camp.” For the most part they see a fallen leader, not a faulty ideology.

    Like

  67. Shelby, you are right that the media wasn’t covering Doug Phillips before the scandal. He was well known within Christian patriarchical circles and among the subset of homeschooling families who fall into that category but I has certainly never heard of him before.

    The old scandals associated with PTL and Jimmy Swaggart made for colorful stories and started a trend of media coverage of this kind of thing and that is why mainstream media covered the Phillips resignation. However, when I googled him I found coverage by Internet bloggers going back years.

    Like

  68. I should add that the early scandals coincided with the growing influence of evangelical and fundamentalist Christians in politics and that was also a factor in increasing media attention.

    Like

  69. Shelby, there may be one impact of the scandal. If you look at the Facebook pages of some of the young men who are known followers of Phillips, there is more than just the typical ‘Oh no, our leader has fallen into temptation, but remember we are all sinners’ response. They seem to be rather stunned that this wasn’t a momentary lapse with a temptress but a longstanding affair with a young woman of his congregation that constituted pastoral abuse. Some of them apparently confronted him and were met with anger instead of contriteness. Maybe this will make them rethink some things, especially the wisdom of sheltering young women, not educating them to support themselves, and not allowing them to choose their own spouse through dating. It makes them very vulnerable.

    Like

  70. Taunya (29, 3:47pm), that’s just nasty. The pic is photoshopped. I know human anatomy (taught it when painting teacher in art school) and that back end is not a possible structure. Whoever did that, and the commenters underneath, are disgusting.

    The easiest “tell” is in the cheek/leg furthest from viewer. The cheek doesn’t match the other, and there is no way, considering the angle of the torso, that the thigh would be showing as it does. Whoever did it tried to cover that by pulling out the furthest shoulder blade (to match), but it doesn’t work.

    There’s a lot of photoshopping done these days, most obviously of models, etc. It’s important for us all to remember—photos are no longer immediately reliable. If one’s eye can’t make sense of it, that’s probably because it’s not sensible.

    Gah

    Like

  71. Interesting Patrice!! I found it very interesting that both Jen and her ex-husband both “liked” the comment “it gives new meaning to the back of the bus” under the picture. That comment made a nasty picture even nastier and also made sure everyone understood it was about race. Jen chose to post the picture first and then like the comment and she claims that she is not racist? Just WOW!

    Like

  75. Yes it is and to make reference to blacks in the back of the bus is very hurtful and very racist. Jen needs to apologize that behavior is not at all consistent with Christianity. She should also consider cleaning up her own act before she spends so much of her time exposing the sins of Doug Phillips. Sickening!

    Like

  76. Taunya, yes, it’s foul, beginning to end. These are not people who understand the God who made all of us in His/Her image. It is in all of us, combined, that we see the fullest image of Him/Herself.

    I leave it to our God, but in my opinion, they don’t think the worship the same God that we do.

    Like

  79. In fairness, I looked through Jen’s FB, and she posted a similar joke/pic a few days ago of a white woman. (Still tasteless, of course) I also saw some personal photos of African-American kids playing with white kids at a party.

    Like

  80. It’s the “back of the bus” comment that really sealed the deal for me.

    Also the joke about the white woman was different just a joke about her dress being see-thru and her smiley underwear showing. I agree it’s tasteless but it had nothing to do with her ethnicity.

    The black woman was being made fun of because of the size of her rear-end. Racists often make fun of the size of a black woman’s backside and also the size of all black people’s lips. I would give it a pass if further down the “back of the bus” comment was not thrown in. So you couple making fun of a black woman’s anatomy (we do have larger backsides than most whites) with the now historical fact that blacks were relegated to the back of the bus and fought it tooth and nail until Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat and it’s clear to see this was about race.

    Like

  83. Taunya– do you have anything straight from the horse’s mouth of Peter or Frank promoting Kinism? I know he/they associate(d) with Kinists, but he’ll say we’re just employing “guilt by association”.

    Like

  84. I know a few full preterists. One question I have yet to hear answered is, if Jesus came back in 70AD and all the prophecies have been fulfilled, why are the rest of us still here?

    (I hope this isn’t taking away from the focus of this discussion.)

    “@Taunya @Hester – See the quote from Jen below – http://on.fb.me/1dMdyCs

    “I am telling people that the Bible is ABOUT, TO, and FOR Israel. That it has nothing to do with US today.

    The Second Coming was in AD70 and had to do with the Jews in Jerusalem.

    There is no hell.

    There is no Satan.

    There is no salvation.

    There is no sin.

    There is no church.

    The creation story was about the land of Israel.

    The flood was local.

    There is no faith.

    There is no way to get into the kingdom today.

    We are not the “bride” of Christ.

    Jesus and Israel got married in AD70 and had millions of kids — us.

    And plenty more, but I won’t bore you with the details.

    I am just trying to get people to THINK!

    God = LOVE. God is a spirit. That spirit IS LOVE.” “

    Like

  85. @Dave AA I just wanted to be clear that Frank Vance was a fake name Peter Kershaw used when he was trying to bring down RC Sproul Jr and Ligioneer Ministries. He also joined Jen in her fight to bring down Doug Phillips years ago, hence why Peter is helping Jen know under the Alias TW Eston. And yes there is proof Frank Vance was really Peter Kershaw. It was proven once and it can be proven again. It would be wise for Peter Kershaw aka TW Eston to stop all his finger pointing and worry about his own behaviour!

    Like

  86. Dave, If you are looking for an admission of Kinism, don’t hold your breath. It comes from reading around on them over a lot of time. When one of them lost their job because of a kinist oriented website back around 2007, many fled. What is weird are all the dots connected. League of South stuff, Patriarchy, etc. A “chain of being” style of Patriarchy in the best Greek sense pervades everything. There is also the Reformation view of the Jews.

    Like

  87. What is the point of posting that sort of picture that Jen posted concerning the woman on the bus? Why? What possible value is there in that sort of thing? Jen devalues others and herself.

    And to think she came over here lecturing JA on her deportment. (including what one does or does not teach their children!)

    Like

  89. Taunya, I agree – the “back of the bus” comment should have alerted Jen to the racist nature of the picture if she was truly that naive. It’s unfortunate that I actually spent time caring about what she wrote. Never again. As for her theology that someone linked to here (from Facebook), she thinks she’s unique in her views and explorations as she says she’s one of a handful studying this. I’ve known plenty of Christians who have struggled with those same questions. Probably many who have been to regular seminary have as they became more educated. She also says most people today have no idea what being a Christian means. So who does she sound like there? One of the very people she denounces. Arrogance and assumption make for ignorance.

    Like

  90. @Dave Here is a link from way back in 2007 discussing the fact that a known kinist and author of the now defunct kinist site Little Geneva, “Frank Vance” was helping Jen tell her story on the Jen’s Jem site. Now Vance, who is believed to be Peter Kershaw now using the alias T.W. Eston, is thought to be helping Jen with her blog once again. Further up in the comments of this thread several links were posted (not by me) regarding the tie between Vance and Kershaw and the links to kinism,

    I find most of the people who are bloggers and members/ex-members of the Vision Forum/kinist/dominionist group to be untrustworthy snakes. Sorry, the movement is full of infighting/backstabbing/lies and deceit and has more in common with secular politics than anything of Christ. Everyone is using at least one alias, I won’t give it the dignity of the term pseudonym, and shadow websites spring up regularly to discredit the enemy du jour. There are all kinds of temporary alliances and truces to help them attack each other. It is really a mess and hard to figure out. I have been watching all of this stuff since roughly 2007-2008 when my husband and I were heavily involved in homeschooling and he was a teaching elder at an FIC, listed on Scott Brown’s site, that we started along with another family.

    I am reporter by profession and could probably dig up tons more but that was another life ago and I can barely stand to read what little I do about these people. Just start googling you will get an education. It’s sad and sickening.

    http://ministrywatchmen.wordpress.com/2007/01/08/an-open-letter-to-mark-and-jennifer-epstein/

    Like

  91. @Jackie C. Jen’s friend wrote the “back of the bus” comment and Jen and her ex-husband both “liked” the comment. So not only was she aware of the back of the bus portion of this, she agreed with it, no naïvete there.

    Hard to believe, isn’t it?

    Like

  93. @Taunya Little Geneva was not Peter Kershaw aka Frank Vance aka TW Eston. Little Geneva was Harry Seabrook. And yes they are all friends. Harry also came on board to help Jen bring Doug down years ago. Harry got caught tho and at the risk of losing his job removed the Little Geneva website.

    Like

  94. @Wantingthetruth thanks for that correction. I was not aware that Harry was also involved with Jen in attempting to bring down Doug. Do you know how Jen originally came to be so chummy with all of these kinists? Was it through her first husband? Were Jen and Mark already kinists? I am aware the kinists wanted to bring down Doug but I wondered how the alliance began.

    Like

  96. Found something interesting last night. Here is a recent response from Peter Kershaw to accusations of kinism. Take note of the writing style. Look familiar TW Eston?
    Peter Kershaw – 04/02/2012 9:30:24 AM

    Dear Anonymous internet stalker a.k.a Mark Burns, the basis of your years-long personal vendetta against me is well known to family and friends, yours and mine both. I long ago determined to just ignore you, in hopes that your hatred would eventually evaporate. Yet there seems no end to your pathological bitterness. Having years ago forgiven you for your malicious and duplicitous deeds against my family, I would take no pleasure now in making public disclosure of the details of the same. I would urge you, therefore, to cease and desist your campaign of hatred lest you have to be publicly disgraced for it. As to your accusation that 14 years ago I spoke at the 1998 Gospel Gathering conference, this is a well known fact, and nothing I am ashamed for. As a best-selling author I have been asked to speak at numerous conferences, both domestically and internationally. My appearance at a conference doesn’t constitute an endorsement of any particular group’s ideologies or doctrinal beliefs. If it did then the same would have to apply to the thousands of other public speakers who routinely speak at events for groups that they do not personally endorse. Your accusations fail for the logical fallacies they are, commonly known as “association fallacy” or “guilt by association.” Thinking people are not swayed by such sophomoric ad hominem. Those who know me know that I do not hold to, nor have I ever been, “Christian Identity” or “white nationalist” (whatever that’s supposed to mean). I am a Reformed Presbyterian and have been most all my life. Unlike you Mark, I do not hate and malign those whose religious beliefs don’t conform to my own. I believe in freedom of religion for all. I also believe in freedom of association, which means that if a group of people asks me to speak to their audience, we have the freedom to enter into an agreement for me to do so, including where I may not agree with their religious beliefs. This isn’t Communist China, Mark Burns, it’s America — the land of the free. I hope that someday you will learn to appreciate those freedoms and behave in a way that helps to preserve them, rather than laboring to undermine our sacred freedoms. “If there’s any confusion as to where Peter Kershaw stands politically” feel free to visit the web site http://hushmoney.org If anyone would like CDs of my messages from the 1998 Gospel Gathering, feel free to contact me for instructions on how to obtain them.

    Like

  97. Pingback: How do you warn someone about a dangerous spiritual group? What if that person is your spouse? | Spiritual Sounding Board

  98. ” It is considered an offshoot of Christian Reconstructionism that originated among anti-immigration traditionalists in the Southern United States.”

    – I’ve brought this up before but Rushdoony was an immigrant. Seems he was an “uncle Tom” type trying to ingratiate himself to American WASPs. In other words, trying to “pass for white”.

    As we already know with the history of Italians, European Jews and even the Irish in this country, “white” at one time (and possibly even now) had more to do with culture and “social value” than with skin color.

    Like

  101. For the record, on February 9th, T.W. Eston’s main squeeze posted an article -on her highly public facebook timeline- by none other than William Pierce, founder of the National Alliance and author of “The Turner Diaries”. I don’t follow her too closely, so it’s possible she’s done this before. However, it definitely vindicates what people said on this thread and elsewhere. It seems she’s reached a point in her life where, when she’s not on the phone with Jonathan David Brown’s good buddy, “T.W.”, in court, or providing “counseling” to Nolan, she makes time to promote conspiracy theories with regard to the Holocaust.

    Like

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)