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One of the most popular debates on this blog is the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate that spontaneously shows up in threads. I have set up this blog post so the Calvinism/Arminian discussion can continue here, but not “overtake” other important articles. Part 1 had so many comments, over 1,000, the page was taking a long time to load, hence, Part 2.
I’ll use Ed’s post to start it off. Feel free to join in:
Hannah,
I hope you came over here:
You had said:
Hmmmm….well if there is no one there to preach the Word says they are without excuse… Romans 1 says he will reveal Himself to them…My response:
Romans 10:13-15King James Version (KJV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Ed
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Kevin,
We’ll have to wait for Lydia to return. However, I’m not just including Geneva.
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Gary W, you’re correct. It is not merely John Calvin and his murders that we are talking about. It also includes the murder and torture of numerous Anabaptists, Baptists, Quakers, and others at the hands of the followers of Calvin.
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Yes, Ryan, that’s what I’m getting at. After doing a bit of poking around though, I think I’m going to have to back off on the tens of thousands number. Perhaps somebody will know.
According to one theory, Calvin’s hypocrisy in changing his position to say it was O.K. to kill heretics was that it cost the lives of Calvinists at the hands of the Catholic. The theory goes that Rome had backed off on killing heretics, except in lands where Catholics were themselves at risk of being martyred by Calvinists.
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Kevin, This was the conumdrum with the Nuremburg Trials. Murdering Jews was not against the law. It was not a crime. It was part of the “culture” as masses of people did not rise up when Jews were being discriminated against, disappeared, etc. It became the norm. It was “life” during that time. Can you not see the problem with your view? It is amazing what CAN become part of the “culture”. What we have to ask is why it was part of the “Christian” culture in Geneva. They had a different Gospel? Calvin had a different Gospel? Where was the Holy Spirit indwelling in his and others lives who were “Christian” leaders?
This is one of my pet peeves. Trotting out OT characters to excuse heinous sin. This has already been answered and each one paid for it. Paul did not continue to murder after he was saved, did he? Where is the new creation in Christ when it comes to Calvin? Or can we remain cruel thugs with the indwelling Holy Spirit? I think not.
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“I’m curious as to how you guys reconcile this?”
I think long time Christians grow in Holiness. They live out their sanctification. They have deep godly sorrow for their sin and are able to repent. We see this with the OT characters you mention. Paul is a different example as he committed those things before he was saved but we see no evidence he did them after salvation.
In Acts 20 Paul warns that there are elders who are wolves.
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“Honestly, I don’t know how to reconcile the two. Off the top of my head, the context is Jesus telling his disciples not to be like the Pharisees since the Pharisees were a burden to the people and oppressive. So, maybe Jesus was saying don’t prop yourselves up like the Pharisees because the people will not listen to you. But, also, i think this was specially directed at the disciples then and there, and probably doesn’t apply to us, especially since the church has been established and its clear that it has a form of church government and hierarchy (Pasotrs, teachers, deacons, elders, etc).”
Yes, I agree the context are Pharisees. But what makes you think they do not exist in Christendom today? Same spirit. But as for “disciples” that denotes followers of Christ. You mention the church not being “established” yet. If that is your view then please never use Matthew 18 for today as the church was not established yet. :o)
I agree with Bridget when it comes to your view of “church government”. The Holy Priesthood is NOT a hierarchy. Jesus Christ is the boss of the Body of Christ. All others are functions in the Body. (Not ‘offices’ which the translators added). Elders are those who are fed to the lions first. :o)
There are too many who love to be “first” and “over” others. It is a HUGE sin trap in the Body. Do we all not have the same “anointing”. (1 John)
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As far as the persecution from Reformers goes, I would highly recommend Martyrs Mirror. It documents both Catholic and Reformed persecutions. You will be shocked at how many were murdered by the Reformers. It is by no means exhaustive/comprehensive.
From my reading on this subject, I would say that drowning was the hands down favorite of the Reformers. They called it the “Third Baptism”. But there was also mass killings in some areas. There were atrocities committed in some hamlets because so many started believing in believers baptism. It really is a part of history we need to become more familiar with.
Here is a good place to start with the dichotomy we are discussing as he starts with the Donatists!
:
http://www.amazon.com/Reformers-Their-Stepchildren-Dissent-Nonconformity/dp/1579789358
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Lydia, yes that is the book you recommended a while back (which I did purchase). Thanks for putting that out there.
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Actually too Lydia, the Bible says that these “elders” would act “like you” but be deceivers.
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http://books.fether.net/index.php?theBook=4
Here is a great resource for a sort of cliff notes on Verduin’s book
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I’d also like to recommend Verduin’s earlier book “Anatomy of a Hybrid”, but it is harder to find. Also read “The Complete Writings of Menno Simons”.
As a Baptist, I am utterly astonished at those who claim to be “reformed baptists”, and their ignorance of Christian history and European history. It was the reformers (and Roman Catholics) who tortured and murdered my spiritual ancestors. Anyone claiming to be a “reformed baptist” ought to be ashamed of themselves.
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Hey Ryan, I am making my way through Hybrid now. It is very interesting and deep. And yes, it took me a while to find a copy on the internet in stock. He seems to be making a bit of a comeback although I doubt the book was well read back when he wrote it. It is more of a scholarly piece.
I forgot to mention that Verduin was given a grant by the Calvin Foundation to research and write Stepchildren back in the early 50’s. Back then things were not so political and one could search for truth and write about it without all the pushback today.
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“Maybe we’re just talking about two different types of “calvinists” because what you guys describe is not my world at all.”
“…the only pastor I had who was ever manipulative and deceptive and somewhat abusive was an anti-calvinist.”
“I’m not a Calvinist like the ones you guys have experienced.”
Kevin, Just because “your world is different” doesn’t mean what many are saying isn’t true. That’s not fair. You may not realize this, but this blog is where abused from all denoms come & read. Some have been hurt by implementing Calvinist teaching into their lives AND some are hurt by other Calvinists. They & we are trying to describe it to you & give you a picture. Try reading backwards in older posts & you will find their experiences. When you keep repeating in what it seems a state of disbelief that this is happening, you are discounting these people and their experiences. This is not wise on your part. Better to listen closely with compassion & try to see what has hurt them. No one is trying to take your faith away. We are trying to give you another perspective. Try to understand. We are talking real, living, breathing people that you may be rubbing elbows with but not realizing it, Kevin. Listening will help you understand them & how Calvinism has affected THEM, if you ever do meet them in the future.
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“FYI, the so-called ‘Doctrines of Grace’ – which go by the nickname of Calvinism – did not originate with Calvin. They are the result of a Synod held in Dort, Holland in 1618/19, after Calvin was long dead.” (Kevin)
Calvinism is just a nickname for the baspel invented by Augustine the Manichean long before that.
Lydia, I’m glad you gave the name of the book in which Calvin defends his murder of Servetus and says that Servetus bellowed like a dog for mercy, and Calvin mocks and laughs about it. Because those long Latin book titles are so hard to remember: Defensio orthodoxae fidei de Sacra Trinitate contra prodigiosos errores Michaelis Serueti Hispani Try saying that three times fast.
“noone agrees with what went on back then but that was the fault of the culture” (Kevin)
Because Calvinists are incapable of rising above the culture. That’s what belief in “born that way, can’t do any better” crap gets you. You guys aren’t capable of being transformed by the renewing of your minds. So, Kevin, you just follow the godless perverse culture around you into all its errors, including burning people at the stake. Very interesting. No wonder Calvinists are always against the culture wars, saying its “Pelagian” to try and improve the surrounding culture: you guys can’t even improve yourselves because your baspel is of the devil.
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Hot off the presses– a comment left on Jen’s Gems by Jason Dohm. Never read anything by him before today, but apparently a buddy of Scott Brown. Would appreciate if you Calvinism discussers analyze from a Calvinism perspective:
Jason Dohm Says:
January 9, 2014 at 4:28 pm
Hi Mike. I repent every day, and when I’m not repenting, I’m trying to be a faithful elder to the people who are in the church here. Some days I do a better job than others, but I am very aware of who the Chief Shepherd is, and the accountability I have to conduct myself according to His pattern. I thought I should write that post for people who might find it helpful and valuable. My guess is that if I hadn’t written anything at all, the analysis would have been, “See, they always cover for their own.” Some days you can’t win for losing…
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Then there’s this comment by Scott Brown on his own blog about a month ago:
“On whether I believe that rappers are “weak willed cowards who bow to the world:” Yes they are and so am I. We are all cowards in facing cultures that oppose the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. So Yes… but I also include myself. Let me add this. It is not always our personal cowardice that causes our compromises. We may compromise for many different reasons. For example, our cowardice may be as a result of lack of knowledge of scripture. Or, perhaps when we are saved we may sort of be born into cowardice. It could have been that we faithfully followed our spiritual fathers who were cowards at some level. So all cowardice is not exclusively related to being intentionally cowardly.”
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“I repent every day, and when I’m not repenting, I’m trying to be a faithful elder to the people who are in the church here.”
You don’t have to repent as often when you realize you are not “born that way, can’t do any better.”
“We are all cowards in facing cultures that oppose the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Even if this is the case, Does failure to oppose = absolute embrace of what should be opposed? This is your standard moral equivalency argument. “Because you told a little white lie once, you can’t condemn rape.” Really? Is anyone really stupid enough to buy that crap?
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You guys are blowing up this thread! I’ve been skimming, but I’ll probably need to come back and read it in order to make sense of it all. That’s the problem with moderating – – the comments come in from all posts and it’s hard to read them in order unless I go to the front page and read them like you do. Woe is me. lol
Hey, I was surfing around and noticed something. I can almost always tell when I encounter a Calvinist by their “About Me” pages on blogs or Twitter profiles, etc. The first sentence was the giveaway here:
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JA wrote:
By my own rebellion, I am a prideful sinner. By His wonderful grace, I am forgiven. Because of His great love, I am ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (in Christ Jesus), and will spend eternity in His Kingdom.
I’ve seen this attitude alot throughout this thread. So, you’re saying you don’t believe this? You’re not rebellious? You’re not a sinner? You’re not forgiven?
What about this is wrong? And what about this is only Calvinistic? I think ALL Christians would say this?
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@davidbrainerd2
Heretic burning was long before Calvin and long after Calvin. Ummm, many, many Calvinstic were burned at the stake.
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A mom,
I’m not discounting anyones experience. I just dont buy the belief that Calvinism is the root of abuse. Pride in mans heart is. There is abuse in every nations, culture, religion, etc.
Of course, you guys don’t believe that, but that’s all I;m saying.
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@Davidbrainerd2 wrote:
Because Calvinists are incapable of rising above the culture. That’s what belief in “born that way, can’t do any better” crap gets you. You guys aren’t capable of being transformed by the renewing of your minds. So, Kevin, you just follow the godless perverse culture around you into all its errors, including burning people at the stake. Very interesting. No wonder Calvinists are always against the culture wars, saying its “Pelagian” to try and improve the surrounding culture: you guys can’t even improve yourselves because your baspel is of the devil.
I have NO IDEA what you are talking about. “Born that way, can’t do any better.” what? that makes no sense.
Also, a majority of Calvinists are Post-Mil in their eschatology, I’m not, but most of them believe in the Golden era of Christianity when the nations and cultures will be overwhelmingly influenced by Christianity. So, that totally negates what you’ve said about not engaging in the culture wars.
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Kevin says, “Heretic burning was long before Calvin and long after Calvin.”
Davidbrainerd2 had answered this even before Kevin posted it: “This is your standard moral equivalency argument.”
I reject Roman Catholicism, in part, because of the Inquisition’s slaughter of fellow fellow Christians. I reject Calvinism, in part, for the same reason.
But then Kevin says, “Ummm, many, many Calvinstic were burned at the stake.”
Well that convinces me. Lots of people don’t pay their obligations. I have even had people that didn’t pay me what they owed me. I guess that excuses me from paying what I own to other people. What a deal! Shoot, I’m tempted to become a Calviinist so I can claim by proxy the privileges accruing by reason of the slaughter of my fellow Calvinists. That way I can burn my own enemies at the stake!
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Dave AA quotes Scott Brown as saying, “We are all cowards in facing cultures that oppose the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. So Yes… but I also include myself.”
Well, Scripture says, “But as for the COWARDLY, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8, ESV, emphasis added)
Is Scott Brown saying he is predestined to eternal, conscious torment? Or maybe he would say that saving grace comes without transforming grace? It does seem to me that those Calvinists who tell us to preach the gospel to ourselves every day, and such, reject the reality of transforming grace. Not picking on Kevin here except to observe that he has embraced a theological tradition that espouses this kind of nonsense.
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I don’t buy the moral equivalency label, sorry.
When I said “Calvinists were burned at the stake” it was because you guys act as if it all started with Calvinism and they were the only ones who did it. It didn’t. That was my point.For some bizarre reason, only known to God, that was the laws back then.
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Actually, Kevin himself seems to reject transforming grace when he ask what is wrong with the statement, “By my own rebellion, I am a prideful sinner. By His wonderful grace, I am forgiven. Because of His great love, I am ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (in Christ Jesus), and will spend eternity in His Kingdom.”
Well, if there was little if any evidence of transforming grace in the very author of Calvinist doctrine, whey would we expect Calvinists to have anything of significance to contribute with regard to the matter of Christ being formed in us? My own testimony is that such transforming grace as I have experienced seems to have occurred after I began to reject the TULIP pentagram.
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“Preach the Gospel to yourself everday” – Please tell me what’s wrong that. Do you even know what it means?
It simply means, We need Christ everyday. We need to remember the cross and what Christ did for us, because we are sheep and prone to forget (just like the isrealites in the OT. They always forgot and God kept reminding them what he has done for them). It means that we need to remember that we have been forgiven and loved and adopted into Gods family.
What is so evil about that? Please enlighten.
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Gary, Good morning! 😉
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“By my own rebellion, I am a prideful sinner. By His wonderful grace, I am forgiven….What about this is wrong? And what about this is only Calvinistic?”
I once was lost but now am found, wasblind but now I see.
“And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11)
The Calvinist rejects the gospel which produces a moral change in the believer. They claim to still be a rebellious sinner, and to only have been forgiven, but not washed, not cleansed, not sanctified. They are exactly as they were before, only their forensic category has changed. They were condemned, now they think they aren’t, but they are morally unchanged and proud of it.
“I have NO IDEA what you are talking about. “Born that way, can’t do any better.” what? that makes no sense. “
That’s only because you are so used to using the technical terminology and cliches rather than real words. Original sin and Total Depravity means in real English: “Born that way, can’t do any better.” And you Calvinists say not only that you are born that way, can’t do any better, but that you stay that way forever. You claim “I am ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (in Christ Jesus), and will spend eternity in His Kingdom” but without being changed at all!
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Kevin rejects the moral equivalency label. Then in the very next sentence he Tells us, “When I said “Calvinists were burned at the stake” it was because you guys act as if it all started with Calvinism and they were the only ones who did it.”
Sheesh!
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Good morning Kevin!
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“When I said ‘Calvinists were burned at the stake’ it was because you guys act as if it all started with Calvinism…”
Kevin, can you cite one person who claimed to be a Christian who burned anyone at the stake prior to Augustine the Manichean, the true founder of Calvinism? Calvin himself may have been totally depraved, but he never had an original thought in his head; it all came from Augustine the Manichean. Calvin himself says as much: If I needed to write a confession of my faith, I could do no better than to quote Augustine. I don’t remember the exact quote, but it was something to that effect.
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Davidbrainerd2 – Calvinist don’t believe in CHANGE? WHAT? seriously, have listened to any Cal sermons or read a book?
Its funny, because most of the bashing on Calvinisn is just the opposite. Anti-Calvninist always harp that we stress “If you haven’t CHANGED and haven’t seen FRUIT, then you are not saved.” They bash us because we QUESTION peoples salvation based on whether or not they’ve CHANGED.
Not sure where you even get this notion from. And yet, people on this thread will read it and believe it, even thought is completely false. But, hey,m it sounds good and it’s bashing Calvinism, so it must be right.
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davidbrainerd2 – tell me one original thought you have ever had? i can play that game too.
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Kevin,
Your explanation of what it means to preach the gospel to yourself every day confirms that you never get past salvation by grace through faith. Over and over and over (and over) again Ephesians 2:8-9 is preached, but I don’t think I, personally, ever heard it preached in the context of verse 10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10, ESV, emphasis added)
Plus, I am fairly certain that I never, ever heard this verse preached:
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24, ESV)
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Gary, no it doesn’t? Do yo not agree that the Jews always forgot what God did for them? Its a reoccurring them in the OT. So, all we’re saying is, don’t forget what Christ has done for you. It’s that simple.
Not sure your point, but Yes, once you have been saved, then go out and do GOOD WORKS. Nothing surprising about that.
But, you missed the deterministic evil God in that same verse. “which God PREPARED BEFOREHAND, that we should walk in them.” BEFORE WHAT? Before you were regenerated……thanks for helping out my cause. 😉
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Kevin,
If the following link works like I expect it to, you can actually watch davidbrainerd2 form an original (and brilliant) thought, over several posts, beginning here:
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/01/03/the-christian-patriarchy-movements-dark-secret-of-wife-spanking/comment-page-1/#comment-74806
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Excellent response, David. Kevin, David is right – -they may claim there is a change, but I see most Calvinists consumed with their sin. And in the “About me” that I quoted, the guy lists his sin in the very first sentence.
As a Christian, I would never draw attention to my sin in the first sentence. I would, however, draw attention to who I am in Christ NOW.
David, another thing – – the proud of the sin part – – wow – I’ve never thought of that, but you’re right, I see Calvinists saying they are the “chief of sinners” and it’s like who can outdo the other on claiming to be sinners. The focus on sin is so obsessive, it drowns out any hope of what Christ did on the cross. Do they actually believe Christ died on the cross for them? Why aren’t they acting like they’ve been forgiven and why so much wallowing in that sin.
In a sense, this wallowing in sin and obsessive focus of sin I would say is blasphemous because they are cheapening the work that Christ did. Either He died for sin or He did not.
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Kevin, Kevin,
You’re being disingenuous. The verse doesn’t say God prepared good works He compels us to do whether or not we choose to do them. We still have to choose to do what He sets before us. God has given me clothes to wear (well, actually, I contribute to their acquisition), but I still have to get up and put them on every morning. Neither the putting on of clothes nor the putting on of compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience” (Colossians 3:12, ESV) are accomplished without our choosing.
And, by the way, have you ever noticed who it is, exactly, that puts off the old self and puts on the new self? We do.
Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. (Colossians 3:9-10, ESV)
Yes, yes, I get it that He does the renewing, but we get to be the initiators.
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Doesn’t seem brilliant to me. It might be original, but really?
“The Jews are rejected — not because they were not foreordained to eternal life but because they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life.
The Gentiles then are accepted, not because they were foreordained to eternal life, but because they judged themselves worthy of it and “devoted themselves” (middle voice translation) “to eternal life.”
So, the Jews judged themselves. The Gentiles judged themselves? So, God isn’t the Judge of all the earth. He just left it up to us?
So much for letting the text speak for itself. And you bash me for many words to describe something.
But i don’t know Greek, so what do I know.
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Sorry JA, he could not be more wrong.
Alot of Christians say “I am the chief is sinners” not just Calvinists. They say this because Paul said it and because they don’t want to boast in themselves and give all the Glory to Christ for their change.
And “are morally unchanged and proud of it.” This is utter non-sense.
See, here is a problem I see over these last few days….You guys just read to much into everything. And you make wrong conclusions based on wrong premises and then you confirm it amongst yourselves and then it becomes the truth, even though it’s not……this is why it’s dangerous to be a lone ranger…..
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The bragging about what sinners they are really has worn me out with this Calvinist resurgence. They think it makes them sound humble and pious but it makes me want to lock up the children and hide the silver when they come around.
They have a false dichotomy of “sinless perfection” or “depraved worm”. So you can see the conundrum. It becomes somewhat like the cultish category of thought reform. If you do not talk about what a sinner you are then by default you believe you are sinless perfection. And THAT is the bigger sin. (wink) From my standpoint, This comes from their definition of total depravity/original sin/guilt for Adam’s sin goo in you.
So it seems strange to see someone like CJ Mahaney, who has been a professing Christian for what? 30 years? tell us what a big sinner he is. HE is the worst sinner he knows. I think we should have believed him. :o) After all, he did not see anything wrong with protecting child molesters and telling victims they are just as big of sinners as the molester. (The moral equivalency position)
Where was CJ’s Holy Spirit helping him grow in Holiness all those years? Helping him to sin less and less? Instead they stay stuck at the Cross ignoring the resurrection and victory over sin and evil. They ignore the promised Counselor who helps us grow in Holiness.
It is a sad “religion”. A bankrupt system that keeps folks in bondage to Greek Pagan philosophy thinking
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“So, all we’re saying is, don’t forget what Christ has done for you. It’s that simple.”
With the indwelling Holy Spirit, you won’t forget because each day you are growing in Holiness, taking your thoughts captive and renewing your mind onto living out the Kingdom here and now. It is the lack of sanctification that is such a problem in Calvinism. They use the words but there is not real practical application because God is controlling every molecule 24/7. Man has no volition. They cannot even see that they do not practice what they believe. They don’t have to because whatever they do is from God who is in “control”. What the non elect do is from Satan. That is their dichotomy because of their definition of Sovereignty. It is a dead end.
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Calvinist love quoting 1 Tim 1 about Paul saying he is chief of sinners. They, of course, interpret it woodenly. But how could Paul have been the SAME sinner he was before the Damascus road? Was he still murdering, throwing women and children in prison?
Are they claiming that whatever sins Paul committed after salvation are morally equivalent to his part in murdering believers?
I think they are and that is a huge problem with Calvinism.
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Gosh, you guys are just so wrong its like i’m in the twilight zone. Sorry. I’m not sure what else to say. Your conclusions are just flat out wrong.
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Isaiah, the great prophet, said:
“And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost (ruined, undone); for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
Now, from your perspective, Isaiah just isn’t growing in Grace. He doesn’t know anything about sanctification. He’s just trying to be cool. Here’s one of the greatest prophets who lived a life for God and spoke for God and upon seeing him, HE IS UNDONE by how sinful he is compared to a holy God.
But, shame on you Isaiah. You shouldn’t have said that or believed that.
REALLY????
come now people, let us reason together…..
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Kevin asks, “But i don’t know Greek, so what do I know.”
Well, really, you identify a very significant problem. Most of us depend upon students of the original languages to give us honest translations. The problem is, the English translators impose their own theological presuppositions on the text. If they would alert us to alternative understandings it wouldn’t be so bad, but they just don’t do it. The process is totally lacking in integrity.
The first time this reality hit me was when I tried to look up the Greek word for “office.” I was shocked. If there is such a word in Greek, it does not appear in the Greek New Covenant. The translators, apparently in order to justify un-Scriptural hierarchical forms of “church” government, simply took the word “office” out of thin air and inserted it into the very word of God.
The insertion of the word “office” is just one example. I am not at all when I observe that Acts 13:48 gets mistranslated, completely ignoring, and failing to disclose, the applicability of the middle voice–all to support a theological position, and all with nary a footnote telling us what they, the translators, have done.
davidbrainard2, being alerted to the translators’ deceit (however conscious or unconscious) brilliantly–yes, brilliantly–puts the pieces together and you, Kevin, all but call him a fool.
So yes, Kevin, you are at a disadvantage not knowing the original languages. You are unable to discern what is honest translation and what is at best mere theological gloss. You are at the mercy of “translators” who have agendas, of “translators” who don’t even have the integrity you exhibit when you at least set forth your proposed translation of Scripture with your personal commentary designated by parentheses.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I am no Greek scholar. However, in the age of computerized lexical aids, much benefit can be derived from even a beginners understanding of the language. I am supposing it must be the same with Hebrew.
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And I thought only Calvinism was intellectual! 😉
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Kevin, we agree on something! You are indeed in some sort of a twilight zone!
As to Isaiah’s confession of unworthiness, aren’t you ignoring the fact that this was followed by some sort of a transformative event, something about a burning coal being applied to Isaiah’s lips. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t recall Isaiah having continued to obsess on his unworthiness, as I contend is exactly what is being done by those who preach the gospel to themselves daily.
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“And I thought only Calvinism was intellectual!”
pseudo intellectual. It is Greek Pagan Philosophy. It needs it Philosopher Kings (Gurus)
Give me a wise person over an “intellectual” one any day.
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Well, actually, I would say Calvinism is faux-intellectual.
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Drat, Lydia beat me to it.
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As to Isaiah passage. Again you read it woodenly and not within its context. What is the progression of God’s interaction with people in the OT? It starts out real close, right? Then what?
Was Jesus “God in the Flesh”? So make the leap from Isaiah’s experience and to those meeting Jesus the Christ. Our God is amazing.
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“Drat, Lydia beat me to it.”
hee hee. The thing that really gets me about Calvinism is that it has no practical application in a believers life. Anyone here ever read JC Ryles book, “Practical Religion”? He was an Anglican Bishop. HIs book on Holiness is very interesting, too. He saw the “hole” and the need to deal with it.
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Not calling anyone a fool.
I found this. This guy would agree with you and DavidBrainerd2. But you have good scholars on both sides.
http://www.masterguitar.com/theology/Calvinism/18acts1348.htm
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So, only you guys can throw out big theological and intellectual words….oh ok, I get it now…..lol
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What big intellectual words? I learned a lot of the Christianese big fancy theological words from reading YRR/Reformed/NeoCalvinist pastor blogs. Did you know God has “several” wills? You woulda thought they both would have been mentioned in the Lords prayer. :o)
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gary, I contend is exactly what is being done by those who preach the gospel to themselves daily.
You contend wrongly. There is no obsession. You’re just wrong my friend.
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“gary, I contend is exactly what is being done by those who preach the gospel to themselves daily.”
Do you have approval from Piper that women can “preach” to themselves everyday? :o)
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Kevin,
There are several dialects within the Calvinist School. Not all Calvinist look at it the same as you. Spiritual Abuse is real and reckless “Predestination and Judge Theology” practiced by Calvinist and Arminians, is why victims continue to endure abuse, for fear of being judged to hell.
Believe it or not, there are Calvinist that focus on a “Sin Centered” Ministry instead of “Christ Centered” and require the need to see “suffering and persecution” in their congregations to see if they are saved. They will manufacture it for themselve knowing full well they will be unable to endoctrinate the entire body, into Hyper Calvinism.
Retaliation is severe to those that question their Doctrine and even more severe if you don’t embrace it.
What made things worse is he purposely withheld as much as he could, not fully disclosing his Doctrine. The only thing he did was reveal his last month of his tenure was his passion for the “Book of Tulip”.
Our former Pastor was attempting to close the church and move it to the Parsonage Apartment because of his reckless interpretation of scripture that offered no redemption through the blood of Jesus. Members were droppping off, childrens Sunday School ended and his final attempt to turn the church into a home church failed.
He has openly compared himself as a martyr like Moses and Paul. It was later discovered that he was taking on-line classes from Andersonville Theological Seminary in Georgia thoughout his tenure getting a degree shortly after.
Lastly, he rebuked the Congregation for struggling to embraced his harsh “Methodology” then he insulted us by suggesting he could teach about “self-love” and “tickle ears” but that is not what he believes. In his last message he retaliated again by emphasizing not forgive under certain circumstances. He did carry unforgiveness and baggage from his Father and Former Church in his heart prior to becoming our Pastor.
We never heard any message on Love throughout his tenure. I wonder if 1 Corinthians 13:13 was torn out of his version of the Bible.
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Off topic but J.A. and all did you see this?! This is just sickening. Good ole Tony giving believers a black eye. GGGRRRRRRR
Crime
American Cop-Turned-Evangelist Arrested in Scotland for Preaching That Homosexuality Is a Sin
Jan. 10, 2014 12:18pm Billy Hallowell
An American preacher serving on a week-long mission trip in Scotland was reportedly arrested Wednesday for openly preaching that homosexuality is a sin.
Former LAPD Deputy Sheriff Tony Miano Was Arrested in Scotland for Preaching That Homosexuality Is a Sin
Street preacher and former Los Angeles Deputy Sheriff Tony Miano (Credit: @TonyMiano on Twitter)
Tony Miano’s legal problems began when he delivered general comments about immorality during an outdoor sermon.
He spoke about adultery, promiscuity and — homosexuality, The Christian Post reported.
It was this latter issue that ended up landing Miano, who once served as Los Angeles Deputy Sheriff, in hot water.
As he was preaching, a woman who disagreed with his message yelled out that she has a gay son and threatened to call police on Miano and Pastor Josh Williamson, another preacher who accompanied him.
“Tony wasn’t focusing just on homosexual practice — it was about all sin,” Williamson said in a statement distributed by the Christian Legal Centre, a legal group based in London. “A woman was yelling at him and her friend noticed we were filming the preaching, so she ran up to me and tried to smash my camera.”
The woman then made good on her promise and called the police.
When Scottish authorities arrived, they reportedly arrested Miano on the charge of “breach of peace with ‘homophobic’ aggravation.”
He was detained after a police officer questioned the woman about what had unfolded, according to the Christian Legal Centre, though police reportedly didn’t ask for his side of the story.
The pastor, who pleaded not guilty, was later released on bail and is expected to show up to court on April 22, though he is permitted to return to his home in the U.S. in the mean time.
Miano posted a Facebook message to his followers after his release.
“Well, as many of you have heard, after about 28 hours, I’ve been released from jail. Pray for Robert who heard the gospel this morning as we shared a holding cell while we both awaited our court appearances,” he wrote.
He later added, “May the Lord use all of this for his glory.
Miano also released a 36-minute video explaining his experience:
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Feel free to put this where is belongs J.A.
He later added, “May the Lord use all of this for his glory.”
NO IT IS NOT FOR THE LORDS GLORY TONY. IT IS ALL ABOUT YOU.
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I’m working on a post on this right now, Gail 🙂
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Gail, My guess is Tony is delighted and most likely egged it on based upon what we already know about him. Donations will increase, he gets publicity and another trip to Scotland paid for! Bet his wife is still working to pay the bills while Tony sees the world for Jesus.
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J.A. Looking forward to reading it!
My guess is your guess Lydia. Hate & fear feed the cash cow! Disgusting.
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lydiasellerofpurple – Ah, sure why not….we’ll let that slide! 😉
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Thanks to those who opined on my Brown and Dohm quotes. I’d opine more myself, but have to run. Plus, Kevin is competing one-on-many and I don’t want to pile on. Kevin, I agree with something you said about Calvinism not being the root of all abuse. I consider it, with all -isms and systems, to be one of many roots. Love of money being another really big one. Love of having the best seat and love of making long prayers for a pretense are a couple others. “Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” is a a pretty good breakdown of categories of roots of abuse. As is delicious, attractive, “and desirable to make one wise” as Adam and Eve considered the fruit. I’d count Calvinism and other isms in the pride-o-life/wise-like-God categories.
On last bit of fodder: “Doug Phillips is a sinner, saved by grace. God was pleased to place him in the home of Howard and Peggy Phillips, two outstanding parents who loved him and poured their lives into him. His father personally discipled Doug…”
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/07/21/doug-phillips-homeschooling-guru-and-qf-proponent/
One might get the idea from this and the rest of Doug’s bio that he considers earthly family to be the Primary means of saving grace. Some of you may be able to explain “covenant theology” to me so that I might understand it better— does it carry this same idea
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So, let me get this straight. I street preacher is preaching and he says that homosexuality is a sin and gets put in jail…..and you guys throw eggs at him and blame him.
Sounds like he was preaching in bizzaro-Geneva. Instead of a theocracy, you kow support a Secularocracy. I would have thought for sure you would support his right to preach, but then again, I’m constantly amazed at what I read on here.
lol.
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Yes, Kevin, I do 🙂 Stay tuned . . .
Ugh – – I had a draft almost done yesterday and have to redo it. It’s okay, I’m more worked up about it today.
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Kevin, If you are not familiar with Tony, you might want to bone up on him before you defend him. Then again, you might agree with him about JA. Who knows.
Hey a great way to deal with homosexuals is to show the love of Christ to them. But that would not work for a Calvinist because in their construct God hates them even though God decided not to choose them before Adam sinned and they were born.
Yelling that homosexuality is a sin on a street corner in a foreign country seems a bit unwise. Sounds like a publicity stunt considering the politically correct laws of that country. (It is Europe for crying out loud they are not as into free speech as we are) It would be unwise to do it in Canada, too, unless you are looking for publicity.
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“Preach the Gospel to yourself everday” – Please tell me what’s wrong that. Do you even know what it means?
Kevin, why do you always assume that non-Calvinists are incompetent?
Preaching the gospel to ourselves every day is a DIFFERENT GOSPEL. It is not in the Bible. And what is so special about a day? Why not preach the gospel to yourself every week? Every month? Every fortnight? Every hour? Don’t you see how silly this is? It is just like the Romanists who chant their mantras and Hail Marys on rosary beads. Furthermore, justification is an instantaneous one-time act. And once we become justified, we are to become sanctified. Justification is not progressive, but santification is. John Piper and friends are preaching a different gospel.
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Kevin, If one must yell on street corners in foreign countries for Jesus, why not yell: Jesus is King! Or, Jesus is coming back! Or, Jesus is the Savior of the world! All are truths.
Why the homosexual angle? Oh well, it is John Knox territory. :o)
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“Preaching the gospel to ourselves every day is a DIFFERENT GOSPEL.”
Ryan, this is a good point. I remember a thread on a YRR pastor blog a while back where the question was asked, “What is the Gospel”. I was shocked at the answers. So let’s do that here. What IS the Gospel?
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lydiasellerofpurple
JANUARY 10, 2014 @ 11:02 AM
Kevin, If one must yell on street corners in foreign countries for Jesus, why not yell: Jesus is King! Or, Jesus is coming back! Or, Jesus is the Savior of the world! All are truths.
Maybe he was, you don’t know.
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Ryan, you still never explained what it means…..
“Furthermore, justification is an instantaneous one-time act. And once we become justified, we are to become sanctified. Justification is not progressive, but santification is.” OF COURSE.
This is what I mean. You guys think ‘Preaching the gospel to yourself” is something more than it is. Your hatred is blinding you.
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The article seems to say he wasn’t singling out homosexuality. It was one of a list he was quoting from the Bible as sin.
I don’t know Tony nor the other issues you guys might have with him, and so I won’t defend him personally. But from just what the article says, it doesn’t appear what he was saying was wrong. Stylistically, it may not be your “flavor”, but I know some Anabaptist guys who are out on the corners regularly saying the same things he’s saying here. Love IS telling someone what sin is and to believe the Gospel.
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“yan, you still never explained what it means…..
“Furthermore, justification is an instantaneous one-time act. And once we become justified, we are to become sanctified. Justification is not progressive, but santification is.” OF COURSE.
This is what I mean. You guys think ‘Preaching the gospel to yourself” is something more than it is. Your hatred is blinding you.”
Kevin, why do you need to be resaved every day? Was the work of the Cross not enough? When can you move onto ‘resurrection”? Your sanctification and living out the kingdom now?
So what is Gospel?
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Matt,
Spiritual abuse is sin, too. Using Jesus’ Name to control and abuse others is pretty bad. In fact, it might be right up there with practicing homosexuality.
Not sure how that works in the moral equivalency world of Tony’s John McArthurite Christianity. They do not recognize spiritual abuse. It is their normal.
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Kevin, your neo-Platonism is showing. Answer my question first. Why do you assume that all non-Calvinists are incompetent?
Also, I noticed you quoted a piece of my statement, trying to show that you believe the same thing as I do regarding justification and santification. I most certainly do not believe in preaching the gospel to myself every day. That is filthy ritual and it is works salvation!
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I agree Lydia, let’s describe the gospel here.
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Lydia,
I agree, spiritual abuse is sin. Is that what you are seeing here in this article? Or, is that relating to your other issues with him that I was referencing?
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See, this is what I mean, “Preaching the Gospel to yourself everday” does NOT mean you are saved everyday. See you proved my point. You guys think something totally wrong. I’ve already explained what it means.
The Gospel:
The Gospel is the Good News. Why do we need Good News? Well, we were created by God to glorify him and enjoy him forever. Man failed and mankind has been alienated from God ever since. But, God, in his great love and mercy did not leave us to die in our sins. He gave us Jesus Christ, who lived a perfect, sinless life, and died on a tree, taking upon him Gods wrath, in our place. Therefore, all who turn to Christ are forgiven and reconciled to God.
you?
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Ryan,
“Why do you assume that all non-Calvinists are incompetent?” I don’t really. I’ve said this over and over and lydiasellerofpurple just proved my point. You guys just jump to wrong conclusions, based on wrong premises. You think “preaching the gospel to yourself” is some mantra or ritual thing and it’s not that at all. But, you don’t care, because you hate Calvinism so much that you just assume the worse from any Calvinist preacher. That is clearly evident here.
“That is filthy ritual and it is works salvation!” what? see, you are proving my point. No it’s not. It’s not even close. It’s works salvation to remind yourself that Christ died for you and has forgiven you? We are sheep. We forget. We need reminders. That is all it means.
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According to someplace called Desiring God Community Church (can’t get any closer to Piper’s New Jerusalem than that!), we read that, “To preach the gospel to yourself, then, means that you continually face up to your own sinfulness and then flee to Jesus through faith in His shed blood and righteous life. It means that you appropriate, again by faith, the fact that Jesus fully satisfied the law of God, that He is your propitiation, and that God’s holy wrath is no longer directed toward you. To preach the gospel to yourself means that you take at face value the precious words of Romans 4:7-8: [Scripture omitted]. It means that you believe on the testimony of God that “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. http://www.desiringgodchurch.org/web/2009/02/21/preach-the-gospel-to-yourself/
Well, that’s nice, but what about getting past being relieved that our sin problem has been managed. Why not spend all that time, effort, prayer, and seeking God in the actual pursuit of becoming more like Jesus?
I can guarantee that if I spent all my time thinking about the time my wife said yes when I proposed, and if I had never settled down to actually getting to know her and form my life to hers, there wouldn’t have been much progress in my marriage.
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Oh dear. Kevin is resorting to the “hate” offense thinking we have to go on defense. You can set your clock by this stuff. I don’t play that game.
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Okay, I’ve never seen this, but Piper, and I’m not a big fan of Piper, is taking this from Jerry Bridges book, The Discipline of Grace.
But notice the paragraph, accidentally left out by Gary, ;-). Just kidding, but this was at the beginning of the article and sets up the whole thing:
“The typical evangelical paradigm is that the gospel is for unbelievers and the duties of discipleship are for believers. But the gospel is for believers also, and we must pursue holiness . . . in the atmosphere of the gospel. To do that, however, we must firmly grasp what the gospel is and what it means in practical terms to preach it to ourselves every day. . . .”
Do you see it? “WE MUST PURSUE HOLINESS…IN THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE GOSPEL.” It’s all about pursuing holiness. Which everyone here thinks Calvinists don’t do.
Also, at the end:
“The death of Christ through which He satisfied the justice of God and averted from us the wrath of God . . . is the basis of all God’s promises of forgiveness. We must be careful that, in preaching the gospel to ourselves, we do not preach a gospel without a cross. We must be careful that we do not rely on the so-called unconditional love of God without realizing that His love can only flow to us as a result of Christ’s atoning death. . . .
When you set yourself to seriously pursue holiness, you will begin to realize what an awful sinner you are. And if you are not firmly rooted in the gospel and have not learned to preach it to yourself every day, you will soon become discouraged and will slack off in your pursuit of holiness. . . . [No factor in the pursuit of holiness] is more important than learning to preach the gospel to yourself every day.”
__________
It’s all about laying a solid foundation so that your pursuit of holiness will withstand the influences and distractions of the world. Its not about being saved again. It’s just a reminder of what Christ has done every time the evil one whispers in your ear something false.
That’s how I take. And sadly I don’t do this.
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lydiasellerofpurple
JANUARY 10, 2014 @ 12:05 PM
Oh dear. Kevin is resorting to the “hate” offense thinking we have to go on defense. You can set your clock by this stuff. I don’t play that game.
What, you don’t hate Calvinism? Am I missing something here?
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I understand Kevin is talking about salvation when he says: “We are sheep. We forget. We need reminders.”
If I continue to sin to such an extent I’m needing to constantly remind myself of my salvation, there is a problem. Isn’t the New Covenant that God will give us new hearts? Isn’t there power in the Blood, not just for salvation but for transformation?
I don’t know, but I suggest the disconnect inherent in all this business of preaching the gospel to oneself daily has its root in the Calvinist doctrine of imputed righteousness.
Personally, I’m more interested in receiving imparted righteousness.
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“To preach the gospel to yourself, then, means that you continually face up to your own sinfulness and then flee to Jesus through faith in His shed blood and righteous life. It means that you appropriate, again by faith, the fact that Jesus fully satisfied the law of God, that He is your propitiation, and that God’s holy wrath is no longer directed toward you. To preach the gospel to yourself means that you take at face value the precious words of Romans 4:7-8: [Scripture omitted]. It means that you believe on the testimony of God that “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. ”
Note, there is nothing about sinning less and less as one grows in Holiness. There is no new creature in Christ. There is nothing about the indwelling Holy Spirit. All of that is impossible because your existence is sin in that construct. (All material is evil only spiritual good).
The good news for them is that even though you remain a depraved worm sinning continually there is no condemnation for it through Christ. (what do they do with Hebrews 10) You are no longer guilty of Adams sin? But Christ never expects you to sin less after all that? His Cross did not mean victory over the evil that rules this earth. . Well, never mind you can’t because God has to control that, too. (Penal substitutionary atonement comes in here, too as the cross was not about overcoming evil but about God’s wrath toward his creation that HAD to be taken out on someone. Atheists call this cosmic child abuse. So His sacrifice is not about love but wrath toward His creation. Not about overcoming evil. And ESS comes in here too as Jesus is a sort of lesser god in that construct)
So, there is no condemnation for those in Christ BUT they are still worms and sinning and that is because they are born guilty with that sin goo in them and not responsible because God is controlling. And if He chose them before Adam sinned and they were born, the cross is nothing but a redundancy. It is a moot point. They were chosen cross or not. They are marionette dolls chosen and controlled by God.
This is why Calvin could not only be elect but a great Christian leader and commit vile sins against other believers. He was chosen!
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O.K., Lydia’s warning notwithstanding, I’m going to take the bait. I hate Calvinism, just as I hate all that is dark and of the devil. But I don’t hate Calvinists. Well, except in the sense that Jesus tells us to hate parents, wife and children.
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“don’t know, but I suggest the disconnect inherent in all this business of preaching the gospel to oneself daily has its root in the Calvinist doctrine of imputed righteousness.”
Bingo! Jesus fulfilling the Law is interpreted that He “obeyed” FOR you. There is no synergistic sanctification between you and the Holy Spirit to grow in Holiness. You just have to be resaved every day. That is it.
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“You just have to be resaved every day. That is it.” – Nope.
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Kevin, here is what you said:
“This is what I mean. You guys think ‘Preaching the gospel to yourself” is something more than it is. Your hatred is blinding you.”
You imply we are hateful. And because we are hateful we are blinded by it. this means I was never a Calvinist. I never studied it deeply both the theology and the history of it including it’s Greek roots. I just ignorantly hate it for no reason.
Okey dokey.
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lydiasellerofpurple – Never said you hated it for no reason. Never said you didn’t study it.
It’s obvious you guys hate Calvinism. that’s fine. I only said it regarding “Preaching the Gospel to yourself everyday” because it’s clear you think it means more than it does and you can’t see that it’s not really that big of deal. So, since you can’t see that, it says to me that because you “dislike” Calvinism so much, you’ve already made up your mind.
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“Do you see it? “WE MUST PURSUE HOLINESS…IN THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE GOSPEL.” It’s all about pursuing holiness. Which everyone here thinks Calvinists don’t do.”
This is the cognitive dissonance of Calvinistic thought processes. I mentioned it way back that they say the words but there is no practical application in the end except maybe the ritual of preaching to yourself every day. And it starts with being chosen before Adam sinned and you were not even born yet. Some add “randomly” chosen. Then you add in their definition of God’s sovereignty which means all God cares about is getting His Glory and He is also controlling every molecule 24/7 so man has little to do with any of it. Add in perpetual guilt for Adams sin and imputed righteousness where Jesus obeyed for you and man is good for nothing at all even when saved! He has no volition. God does it all.
with all that in mind, Kevin wants us to believe that they can have volition to actually pursue Holiness because it is one sentence that negates the others. So which is it? And I would remind Kevin that pursing Holiness is going the race and winning the prize. Not stuck at the cross contemplating your evil.
Look, this is provocative but I am going to mention it anyway. This focus on going “deeper” with your sin, reporting sins to your group, etc, etc in the Calvinist construct is dangerous business. I saw it up close and personal. In fact the focus on your personal sin (after salvation!!!) was so intense I saw that many were what I eventually called “making dates with Satan”. It was ugly and some end up not being able to get out of it. Some that did for a while and then left the faith. I think Satan is delighted with that intense deep focus. You certainly are not thinking about loving/helping others when you are focused on evil. In fact, many just made up sins or recalled sins from long past that should have been buried in the deep with salvation.
Now, the converse is that we DO fall into sin and those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit are convicted and repent making serious course corrections. This is because we are believers! At those times we are so thankful for our indwelling Savior who defeated evil on the Cross so we could be the kingdom now. We look forward and upward.
Calvinism is a mixed bag of cognitive dissonance. You are told God does it all and that is grace but in another sentence you are to pursue Holiness by preaching the Good News to yourself every day.
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I am opposed to rape. I hate the very idea of it. Lydia, are you saying it is your experience that there are some in the Calvinist camp who, to be consistent, would be compelled to say that my hatred is sure fire evidence that my opposition to rape is irrational, wrongly motivated, and otherwise discredited?
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“Calvinism is a mixed bag of cognitive dissonance. You are told God does it all and that is grace but in another sentence you are to pursue Holiness by preaching the Good News to yourself every day.”
This is not what we’re told or taught.
We’re not a mixed bag of cognitive dissonance. We’re a bag of tension between God’s Sovereignty and mans responsibility.
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There are some “Reformed” scholars (to their own extent) out there who really bring something of spiritual value to the table. Guys like NT Wright, JC Ryle, Leonard Verduin, etc.
Verduin was Dutch Reformed who really had a heart for the Ana Baptists. He tried to get the Dutch Reformed church to remove their written condemnation of the Ana Baptists.
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“am opposed to rape. I hate the very idea of it. Lydia, are you saying it is your experience that there are some in the Calvinist camp who, to be consistent, would be compelled to say that my hatred is sure fire evidence that my opposition to rape is irrational, wrongly motivated, and otherwise discredited?”
I think this breed of Calvinist would tell you to look for God’s glory in the rape. That suffering is good for the victim. Everything is about God getting His glory so you have to focus on that. People are not important in the equation.
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“We’re a bag of tension between God’s Sovereignty and mans responsibility.”
There is no tension. That is the point. God’s Sovereignty means He is Sovereign enough to create beings in His image who can say NO to Him, defy Him or Love Him. He is that secure in Himself. He is not a narcissistic monster grabbing for His glory in everything.
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Hmmm. Item 4 from Robert Lifton’s 8 criteria relating to Ideological Totalism and Thought Reform:
4. The Cult of Confession – use a radical level of personal confession to unburden people from their crimes (real or imagined) against the organization.
For a more complete treatment see http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/the-hunger-games-trilogy-5a/
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