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One of the most popular debates on this blog is the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate that spontaneously shows up in threads. I have set up this blog post so the Calvinism/Arminian discussion can continue here, but not “overtake” other important articles. Part 1 had so many comments, over 1,000, the page was taking a long time to load, hence, Part 2.
I’ll use Ed’s post to start it off. Feel free to join in:
Hannah,
I hope you came over here:
You had said:
Hmmmm….well if there is no one there to preach the Word says they are without excuse… Romans 1 says he will reveal Himself to them…My response:
Romans 10:13-15King James Version (KJV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Ed
Spiritual Sounding Board 
“On the day when I finally meet my Messiah face-to-face, is he going to ask me why I gave in to despair and listened to people who called evil good and blasphemed against him, killing his heart and character by teaching that he is responsible for or the cause/orchestrator of sin? Or is he going to congratulate me for rejecting such dark and destructive teachings, and choosing to hold onto hope and the fact that he is Love, with all of my might?”
Hold onto the hope & fact that God is Love. Amen & amen! This is exactly what our Messiah wants us to do. Jesus was killed, in fact, because he bucked the theological system of His day. The religious leaders hated Him. He didn’t fit into their wrong ideas of God.
I would say that any religious leader that persecutes or kills has faith wrong. Think about it, all religious leaders preach that ideas/theology drive behavior. I certainly agree with that.
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“Our view of God really does determine what kind of relationship we’ll have with God, and whether or not we’ll even have one at all… Our view of God is EVERYTHING, if we desire to know him and be in a relationship with him. And for me…there is no such thing as healing from child abuse (the pain of which is intensified by determinism teaching) until my view of God is healed first.”
Oasis, such wise words. I agree this is the path to healing. And it is why I comment & defend exactly what you said so well on this blog.
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Mark, Sorry, i just have come across these Calvinist pastors you refer too who preach the way you say they do. Sorry, I just haven’t and I don’t know any. Im sure there are some, but it’s not what my Pastors preach or teach or emphasize.
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have NOT come across.
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lydiasellerofpurple
Rome did not and does not hold to the Doctrines of Grace or monergism, etc. They abused their authority for 1200 years and imposed on everyone. The Reformation was far more than indulgences. Yes, Luther wanted to “reform” the church but it quickly became apparent that that was never going to happen. And there were others who didn’t want to Reform the church, but wanted to break away from their Authoritarian abuse.
Not sure how you think Calvinism is worse than Islam. Islam has a billion members and they have authoritarian rule over women and children and nations and cultures.
Atheism. Communist regimes (Atheist) have murdered tens of millions of people in history. I would say that is authoritarian.
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Mark said:
“Predestination” preachers believe and emphasize to their congregations of lacking evidence (works) to be be saved and then in the same breath emphasize “one could be doing everything right and not be saved”. They are making what Christ did on the cross less important. Many of these ministries are more “Sin Centered” rather than Christ Center”. They spend more time repetitively explaining why we shouldn’t recieve salvation focusing on man’s un-holliness, rather than leading them to Christ and his holliness.
Sorry bro, but I just have never heard this or read this from any Calvinist. Do you know any Pastor who has taught like this?
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Kevin,
This thread addresses abuse from these types of Pastors’ whether they are Calvinist, Arminian or something else, with an unhealthy view of God’s Foreknowledge.
The abused are fearful of being judged to hell, by the abuser if they don’t embrace their harsh “Sin and Suffering Centered” Methodology rather than “Christ Centered”. Many Abusers are indoctrinating Congregations that is centered around their version of Predestination, cherry-picking certain verses to dismiss the importance of making a personal decision of believing and following Jesus.
If the abused want to be part of the “Elect” whether Calvinist or Arminian they have to persevere under these regimes. Many of the abused are unaware of the Pastors’ Doctrine because he won’t even disclose it.
There are Reformed Seminaries that are teaching this stuff.
Have you ever heard of the term “saved before faith”? or “Saved without having to make that Choice”?
Do you think God loved Esau?
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“Rome did not and does not hold to the Doctrines of Grace or monergism, etc. They abused their authority for 1200 years and imposed on everyone. The Reformation was far more than indulgences. Yes, Luther wanted to “reform” the church but it quickly became apparent that that was never going to happen. And there were others who didn’t want to Reform the church, but wanted to break away from their Authoritarian abuse.”
You don’t get it. They traded ONE authoritarian structure for another. The Reformed leaders did seek protection and power from Princes, etc who wanted the Catholics out. European Church history IS political history. It is one and the same. You cannot separate them. The ruling elite were sick of money going to Rome.
Why do you think Calvin was asked to come back to Geneva the 2nd time? He was kicked out the first time for being overbearing. They were scared because the Catholics were making inroads in gathering power again. They needed Reformers to teach them this new Anti Catholic doctrine. It was all political. If it wasn’t then why on earth did they pursue and persecute the Ana Baptists with a vengeance? Drowning them simply because they refused to Baptize their babies or believed in believers baptism?
The official record of history proves this. Their own church/political archives prove this.
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Mark,
Well, this is just awful. Obviously these men should not be in the church.
I have never heard the terms “saved before faith”? or “Saved without having to make that Choice”? And if I understand them, they are not taught in my church. They reek of Hyper-calvinism.
I do not think God loved Esau. Scripture says he hated him. I don’t think this means “loved less” or “just didn’t favor him.” I think it’s clear that God, before they did anything good or bad, “loved Jacob and hated Esau.”
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Kevin,
It’s Hyper Theologies in general based on what others in this thread has experienced it isn’t just isolated by just Hyper Calvinism.
Although with Calvinism and Arminianism having several dialects within their own Doctrine, I’m discovering they are unable to find a consensus to what they can agree on, which is proclaiming “Truth”.
There is book “God loved Esau” that explains Esau’s life in scriptures, you can a short summery on-line about the book.
I tend to agree with the author of this book that God loved Esau and that Paul in Romans 9, was teaching election to service not salvation.
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Kevin,
You say, “I do not think God loved Esau. Scripture says he hated him.” I suppose you’re convinced Esau is destined to suffer eternal, conscious torment?
Well, Jesus said “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26, ESV). How am I to express the demanded hatred? I can’t express my hatred by arranging their eternal, conscious torment. What would you suggest I do? Burn my father, mother, wife and children while tied to a stake? I can’t make the process last forever, but I could make the process very, very slow. I could make the fire so low that there is a literal roasting process that starts with the feet and proceeds over a course of hours to the calves, thighs, groin, abdomen, chest, neck and head. I have read that this is the procedure John Calvin arranged in connection with his judicial murder of his enemy, Miguel Servetus.
No, no. John Calvin was not a nice person. But no wonder. His small “g” god also is not a nice person.
Or maybe the English word “hate” doesn’t do a very good job of conveying the sense of the Hebrew and Greek. Nah, that couldn’t be it. Certainly not!
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Gary, you beat me to it with Luke 14. Boggles the mind, does it not? God hated Esau yet tried to warn him about sin crouching at his door. So why warn him when Esau was ‘made for destruction” as they like to tell us. After all, Esau had no choice. Why would God hate the people he did not “choose” for salvation before Adam even sinned and they were born? Did He need some people to “hate” that He would be controlling anyway? Oh, I forgot, they have free will to “sin” because that is their born guilty nature.
The more we dive into this determinist god of Calvin the more it gives one chills.
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Gary, not sure who you are reading but that is not supported by the historical record. Calvin wanted Servetus to be killed by beheading to spare him the agony of burning. Calvin spent hours and days with him, asking him to repent. It wasn’t Calvins idea to execute Servetus, it was the town council and teh culture at the time. Heretics were killed before and after Calvin. Anti-calvinists try to put this on Calvin and it doesnt stick because the truth is out there. Of course it was awful for heretics to be killed but you can’t impose our modern beliefs on a older era. That was the culture they lived in.
lydiasellerofpurple – you obviously don’t believe in original sin, you have said this a few times. Are we not born in sin? If not, then how do we get sin?
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Did everyone have fun in this thread since I was last here? 😆
Kevin said,
“hence, you will have a better understanding and love for God. ”
But I’m not one of the elect. God fore-chose me as an object of wrath and destruction from before the world. God does not love me. He hates me and wants me in hell for eternity, for His glory.
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“Calvin spent hours and days with him, asking him to repent. It wasn’t Calvins idea to execute Servetus, it was the town council and teh culture at the time. Heretics were killed before and after Calvin. Anti-calvinists try to put this on Calvin and it doesnt stick because the truth is out there. Of course it was awful for heretics to be killed but you can’t impose our modern beliefs on a older era. That was the culture they lived in.”
The Gospel was different then? Even for a great theologian like Cal who systematized it for us? I thought HE would know it was wrong to even “behead” someone he thought was a heretic.
Not sure where you are getting all your info but it is spin. Calvin wrote a letter to a friend LONG before Servetus showed up in Geneva saying that if he ever did he would not leave alive. It is in the archives. It was PREMEDITATED murder, friend. The trial information is also in there. It was a star chamber. And yes, it WAS Calvin. In the end, he ordered green wood so Servetus would burn slower. Your guru and author of your doctrine was a tyrannical murderer. the Reformed community has been spinning the Servetus issue for years trying very hard to exonerate Calvin. That was one reason I read everything I could on it from scholars who searched the church/state archives after WW2 when they really opened up to researchers. There is more than just Servetus. He did lots of cruel hateful things to others, too. The man was evil.
Oh and Servetus was not a Genevan citizen and the normal course would have been to banish him. But Calvin would have none of it. The whole issue with the beheading is typical Calvin trying to do a CYA because some were very uncomfortable with the trial. The council would have none of it. There was no civil crime. And beheading was the punishment for a civil crime.
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“lydiasellerofpurple – you obviously don’t believe in original sin, you have said this a few times. Are we not born in sin? If not, then how do we get sin?”
You mean Augustine’s version where we are guilty of Adams sin and therefore all material world is evil and only the spiritual is good? Our very existence is sin. Babies are sin.
How about Adam and Eve’s sin brought consequences that affected every human? We are born into a corrupted world into corrupted bodies. God holds us responsible for the sins we commit and KNOW we commit. He does not hold us responsible for Adam’s sin.
If we are born guilty of Adams sin then babies are evil beings and if they die they go straight to eternal torment. Which is why the doctrine of original sin brought about infant baptism. And later some said, that is too mean so we think God just saves them anyway so we don’t have to baptize them anymore.
In your construct there are guilty totally depraved adults who are mentally challenged. Simple souls who trust others explicitly. Yet they are evil according to your doctrine.
Does God secretly regenerate them but we cannot know?
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“If not, then how do we get sin?”
Now that I think about it, that is an interesting turn of phrase. We do not “get sin”– we choose sin. We are constantly fighting our corrupted flesh (includes our minds). What happened? It goes back to the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.
Your “get sin” comes from a focus on a guilty sin goo passed on through sex that is the basis for Original sin whether you realize it or not.
If one is born guilty with this sin goo in them, passed down from Adam, then so was Mary. And our Holy Savior swam around in the sin goo for 9 months.
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Kevin said,
People did not smile in 19th century photos due to exposure time. They has to sit still for minutes before the photo was taken. It was not the age of Polaroid camerias or digital photos, where you clicked a button and the photo was taken in a nano second.
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Kevin,
@2:14 I had a short response near the end of my statement, why I believe God loved Esau. And that Paul in Rom 9 was teaching “Election” to service rather than Salvation.
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Lydia, read something other than people who hate Calvin. You’re simply wrong. The Servetus issue is just a straw man to destroy Calvin.
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lydiasellerofpurple – you have more issues than just Calvinism. You don’t believe in the inerrancy of scripture, you don’t believe in original sin or Adams federal headship, so, not sure where to go from here.
Yes, babies are born in sin, all mankind is born in sin. And all babies, just like adults need Christ.
In, your world, a baby doesnt need Christ? A baby is born innocent and guiltless? That’s pelagianism…..Only one person was born without sin and that;s Christ.
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Mark, I don;t see your response. Not sure about the whole service thing.
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A Mom, thanks for reminding me of what a glorious rebel our Messiah was, and how revolutionary. To be short, I definitely agree with you about ideas and theology driving behavior…
“And it is why I comment & defend exactly what you said so well on this blog.”
And I thank God you do! I was supposed to be staying away from blogs for a while, or at least from threads like this one…but I decided to be bad, oops… But as I told you elsewhere, your comments are often so edifying, and make me want to dance!
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missdaisyflower – if your not one of the elect, you won;t care about God or his love. THe reprobate loves his sin and cares nothing for righteousness.
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Does God love everybody? yes or no?
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Kevin
JANUARY 8, 2014 @ 7:42 PM
Does God love everybody? yes or no?
YES. John 3:16….For God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth on Him shall have everlasting life.
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“’Calvinism lends itself to authoritarianism’ – you guys keep saying this but it’s not true. I have never experienced this as a Calvinist. PRIDE lends itself to authoritarianism.”
Because Calvinists are too blind to experience anything. Like the guy in Plato’s cave, you don’t have enough light to see anything.
Calvinists are always saying they don’t see the logical implications of their doctrine, because they don’t. They are the blind leading the blind into the ditch.
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Kevin,
In case you are unclear, “whosoever” does not mean “only those who were ‘predestined by God before the foundation of the world”. It means anyone at all who desires to be saved can come to Christ for the forgiveness of their sins and receive the gift of salvation. He wants a relationship based on love and trust, not a dictatorship where He’s a puppetmaster and is pulling our strings as we simply live out His divine “play”.
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Much of the problem with Calvinism is sustained by a manipulation of the canon. The Calvinists removed the so-called Apocrypha AFTER the Reformation, in the 1700s. Why did they do this? Luther himself had a HIGHER evaluation of certain books of the Apocrypha (namely Sirach) than he did of James, Hebrews, and Esther, all of which he considered uninspired.
Sirach 15:11-20
This had to be removed to help Calvinism out. Its not like the Bible doesn’t teach freewill without the Apocrypha…after all, this passage is nothing but a commentary on Deuteronomy 30:19
But the implicitness of Sirach’s treatment of the subject had to be gotten rid of.
But its not like James doesn’t say the same thing (and that’s why Luther wanted to remove James) in James 1:13:
If God cannot tempt anyone to do evil, neither can he force them to.
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“Does God love everybody? yes or no?
Next to Song of Songs, 1 Corinthians 13 is possibly the most authoritative description of Love in Scripture. Among other things, Paul assures us, “Love bears all things [including ALL sin], believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things [including ALL sin]. Love never ends. (1 Corinthians 13:7-8a, ESV)
Well, we know that God IS Love. God cannot deny His own nature. Therefore, each and every element of Love as described by Paul (and as poetically portrayed by Song of Songs) applies to God’s view of and relationship to his creatures–ALL of them.
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Kevin,
Do you keep Jesus’ commandment to hate your father, mother, wife and children? Yes or no?
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Where IS that “like button”? 🙂
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“lydiasellerofpurple – you obviously don’t believe in original sin, you have said this a few times. Are we not born in sin? If not, then how do we get sin?”
Adam wasn’t born in sin, so how did he get sin? See the Calvinist idea that the only way you can sin is if you are born into sin, doesn’t make a lick of sense. Because then how did Adam sin? “He chose to.” Well then so do you.
You’ll note among the consequences of eating the fruit actually listed in Genesis, are physical death, pain in childbirth, and weeds and thorns. Not anywhere in the list is any nonsense about anyone being born in sin. But Calvinists mistranslate Psalm 51:5 to fix that.
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“Rome did not and does not hold to the Doctrines of Grace or monergism, etc. They abused their authority for 1200 years and imposed on everyone.”
They only began abusing with Augustine, you know, the founder of Calvinism, the inventor of “original sin” and predestination.
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And if everyone after Adam is born with original sin, what business did God have telling Cain: “Sin desires to have you, but you can conquer it.” According to Calvinism, God is lying to Cain. But I guess its Ok to lie to the “totally depraved” and “non-elect”, right?
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You read my mind, davidbrainerd2, with your mention of Sirach and James 1. Good stuff!
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@Gary:
Kevin,
Do you keep Jesus’ commandment to hate your father, mother, wife and children? Yes or no?
YES – Jesus was saying that you must put Him first in your life and if following him costs you your friends and family, so be it.
If you don’t then I would have to lovingly warn you brother because Jesus is pretty clear on this. If you don’t, you can’t be his disciple.
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
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@Gary @waitingforthetrumpet2
Does God love everybody?
From Paul Dohse – A Calvninist couldn’t have said it better….well, maybe, but this is pretty good….
First, does God love everybody? Do we really want to tell unbelievers that God loves them and has a wonderful plan for their life? I understand the angle: “if you would just give your life to the Lord, you would find true happiness!” “Don’t you understand? God loves you!” (assuming that knowledge will motivate people to be saved).
And what about John 3:16? “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If you think about it, this verse probably means that God’s love could potentially love everyone without distinction, but is conditional upon their belief in His Son. The second part of the verse seems to add that condition. Why do I say that? Because of what Psalms 11:5 says: “The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.” In regard to the righteous and unrighteous, Romans 9:13 says: “As it is written, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’”
Even those who want to believe that God loves everyone must concede that God does not love unbelievers the same way that He loves us as believers. Matthew 7:23 records the words Christ will say to some: “Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” Of course, this doesn’t mean that Christ never knew who they were, but rather refers to intimacy (Genesis 4:1, Gen. 19:5, 8). Christ never knew them or loved them intimately. So, to simply tell unbelievers that God loves them is to allow them to assume God loves them in the same way he loves believers which at the very least is false. Furthermore, it is a half-truth because it is also true that God hates them as well, so to only mention the love part is only half of the truth. It should go without saying that it is very important for unbelievers to have a truthful and accurate picture of their standing before God while being evangelized.
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davidbrainerd2
Calvinists are always saying they don’t see the logical implications of their doctrine, because they don’t. They are the blind leading the blind into the ditch.
Who says this? I see the implications of my views and accept them. They are biblical. You don’t see the implications of your view.
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@davidbrainerd2 – Is this your real name? Just asking becuase you realize David Brainderd was a Calvinist missionary? ;-). Just find it interesting.
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Kevin,
At 5:12 AM, you sure had to use a large number of words to explain away God’s infinite love, and I continue to maintain that, in promoting such positions, you blaspheme the one who is Love.
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waitingforthetrumpet2
Does God love everybody? yes or no?
YES. John 3:16….For God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth on Him shall have everlasting life.
You realize there are several meanings to the word WORLD?
From Strongs: Kosmos
1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
3. the world, the universe
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
b. of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19
Interesting Note: According to the New Testament Greek text, kosmos occurs about 185 times. It is used some 105 times by the apostle John, 47 times by Paul and 33 times by other writers. With the use of a concordance, it is readily observed that kosmos is never used by Paul or the other writers to mean all mankind generically in a salvation context unless John’s usage is the exception. It is used of all mankind universally in a context of sin and judgment (Rom. 3:6, 19; 5:12), but never in a salvation context.
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Kevin,
I am pleased to hear you hate your father, mother, wife and children. I am not so pleased to observe that you followed your confession with subterfuge. You very sneakily tried to define the word “hate,” as used by Jesus, as having a different meaning than the “hate” with which God hated Esau. I for one am not buying it.
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Also, if God & Jesus loved everybody, then why does Jesus not pray for the WORLD?
John 17:9
I am praying for them (disciples). I am not praying for the WORLD but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
There is clearly a distinction between those God gave to Jesus and those who he didn’t (the World).
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Gary, Everything in Context. Jesus is teaching his disciples that cost of following him.
So, what do you think Jesus means?
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“YES – Jesus was saying that you must put Him first in your life and if following him costs you your friends and family, so be it.”
So on this one you take it metaphorical as it was meant to be. I find that interesting. You give yourself an out. After all, if your family does not turn against you, you don’t have to “hate” them. Why not take this passage literally as you do so many others? As a command and simply hate your family so you are a good follower of Christ?
What does it look like to “hate” your family for Christ’s sake? Does it look like what you think it looks like when God hates some people?
Are folks here allowed to disagree with Paul Dohse, ever? You seem to be so guru oriented you cannot imagine such a thing. As David said above, Calvinism is the blind leading the blind. I totally agree with that.
I believe that telling folks that God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life is ridiculous. If we are thinking adults, God has given us the tools to make of life what we can. And much of that includes seeing others through it, doing what we can.
I disagree with his view of Matthew 7. Jesus is basically talking about those who think they are righteous believers in God such as the Pharisees. As far as Psalms, I cannot say it enough: It is man talking to God in poetry. And has lots of very uncomfortable things in it we would see as hateful and sinful.
Here is something a friend of mine wrote who is a theologian/scholar on this subject of God hating people:
“The outcome of your argument is a direct contradiction of Scripture on two counts, both having to do with the life of Jesus (who, by the way, should be our hermeneutical key in sorting through such utter foolishness as God’s literal hatred of humans created in his image). Your argument directly contradicts the affirmation of divine love for the unregenerate in both the rich young ruler and for all of Jerusalem in Matthew 23. We know that the latter, as history unfolds, would remain obstinate until the end, yet divine love was present to reconcile at the first blush of repentance. In Jesus Christ, God demonstrates his love for a wayward man who ends up rejecting him, and for a wayward people that continued to reject him until today. In Jesus Christ, who is the full and final revelation of God, we see love and not hatred.”
There is another problem with the interpretation of God hating people….It is not what we see from Jesus in action or words as he mentions above. So what do we do with that? He was quite bold with rebuking the Pharisees and I can see some folks seeing that as “hate” in a way.
I really think there is a disconnect with the metaphorical, apocryphal communication style of the OT and our Western understanding.
I will say that I am weary of the happy clappy Jesus Who hung on the Cross for cheap grace so you could be happy and sin all you want. I know that world quite well, too. Many seeker megas are that world.. But the other world of Calvin, that I thought was the answer, was even worse as I dug into it. In fact, both sides are more the same than they are different. Both appeal to antinomianism. They just get there in different ways.
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Gary, those weren’t my words, they were Paul Dohse;s.
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Kevin, What do you do with this part of John 17 in the same prayer?
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
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Kevin says, “Calvin wanted Servetus to be killed by beheading to spare him the agony of burning. Calvin spent hours and days with him, asking him to repent. It wasn’t Calvins idea to execute Servetus, it was the town council and teh culture at the time. Heretics were killed before and after Calvin.”
Sheer party line propaganda. If lies are spoken loud enough and repeated often enough, they will be accepted as truth. Kevin, Joseph Goebbels would be proud of you. These lies succeeded for several centuries only because John Calvin succeeded in destroying both his detractors and their writings. Except Calvin didn’t manage to destroy and suppress the written record forever. Lydia has already addressed the issue, but the lies with which Calvin defended himself have been refuted by the historical record. One place the actual historical record is documented is Standford Rives’ book, “Did Calvin Murder Servetus?” I am also grateful to Lydia for having referred me to Stefan Zweig’s book “The Right to Heresy,” which can be read online at http://www.gospeltruth.net/heresy/heresy_intro.htm. Paradoxically enough, I find Zweig credible because he wasn’t a Christian and could, therefore, write without prejudice for or against John Calvin.
Anyhow, I suggest that the propaganda/lies regurgitated by Kevin fall into in the same category as the lie that Jesus’ body was stolen by His Disciples.
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“Gary, those weren’t my words, they were Paul Dohse;s.”
Kevin, You are being disingenuous. we have been discussing the same issue before you quoted Paul Dohse. You have resorted to deflecting word games. In fact, I picked up on the same thing Gary did and mentioned it. You redefined the word “hate” used by Jesus to mean something other than what you claim God meant it concerning Esau. (There are often subtle clues that ESS reigns in Calvinist thinking. This is one of them)
This deflection, reframing the debate has been my experience talking with Calvinists for 8 years now.
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http://books.google.com/books/about/Defensio_orthodoxae_fidei_de_Sacra_Trini.html?id=d55dO1n4myUC
A good look at Calvin from his own quill pen in his Defense for burning Servetus. Yikes!.
You might also want to check out Balthasar Hubmaier’s “Concerning Heretics and Those Who Burn Them” for another view from that same era.
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Kevin,
You win a debating point, but you still lose on substance. Since you don’t seem to be able to understand without a good bit of logical hand holding, let me be a bit more precise in making my point:
You sure had to adopt a whole lot of somebody else’s words to explain away God’s infinite love, and I continue to maintain that, in promoting such positions, you blaspheme the one who is Love. (And, by the way, I’m not accusing Paul Dohse of blasphemy; you have doubtless taken him out of context, an intellectual sleight of hand at which you seem to be particularly adept. Well, actually, I should probably say that your gurus, whose thoughts you adopt as your own, are particularly adept at taking Scripture out of context.)
In future, I will try to keep in mind that you don’t have many original thoughts of your own. It may save me the effort of again having to explain the obvious.
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Lydia,
Is this the “Concerning Heretics and Those Who burn Them” you referenced?: http://tankstotractors.blogspot.com/2012/07/concerning-heretics-and-those-that-burn.html
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lydiasellerofpurple
Kevin, What do you do with this part of John 17 in the same prayer?
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Verse 20 “My prayer is not for them (disciples) alone, I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message. (These are the elect that God has given to Jesus that will come to faith after he is gone to be with the Father). May they (future believers) also be in us so that the world (two interpretations 1- either the rest of God’s chosen people in the world, not yet called or 2) the wicked unbelieving world who will see the churches love for one another and) may believe that you have sent me.
I think the 2 options is better but this is a difficult verse to fully grasp for several reason, but it’s kind of like when Jesus said “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Somehow, our love for one another will be seen and apparent by the unbelieving world.
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I don’t have time to look it up, but even Calvin was opposed to burning heretics, until he wanted to start burning heretics. I recall that he had to edit his Institutes to reflect his change of position.
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Gary, I thought we were starting to get along and you go and accuse me of taking things about of context! ;-)…not taken out of context at all.
read Paul for yourself. I posted this yesterday.
http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2010/10/13/4-hyper-grace-myths-god-loves-everybody-backslidden-christians-sinners-saved-by-grace-and-its-wrong-to-fear-god/#comment-34874
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Gary, If it could be proven that John Calvin was indeed a murderer like you claim, it would have no effect on the theology that sprung from the pen of the Reformers. It’s simply “guilt by association” and doesn’t really have teeth.
FYI, the so-called “Doctrines of Grace” – which go by the nickname of Calvinism – did not originate with Calvin. They are the result of a Synod held in Dort, Holland in 1618/19, after Calvin was long dead.
This is why I say we don’t really talk about Calvin all that much. You guys do.
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Kevin,
Re: your 6:29 AM comment, where did you find your second version of the John 17 passage? I’m O.K. with parenthetical commentary (if only to be entertained to observe to what lengths some will go to explain away Scripture), but would like to know where the commentary comes from. Just in case you have the ability to work with the Greek, the first version of the passage is clearly fairly consistent with a literal rendering of the original:
20 Οὐ περὶ τούτων δὲ ἐρωτῶ μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ τῶν πιστευόντων διὰ τοῦ λόγου αὐτῶν εἰς ἐμέ, 21 ἵνα πάντες ἓν ὦσιν, καθὼς σύ, πάτερ, ἐν ἐμοὶ κἀγὼ ἐν σοί, ἵνα καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν ἡμῖν ὦσιν, ἵνα ὁ κόσμος πιστεύῃ ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας. 22 κἀγὼ τὴν δόξαν ἣν δέδωκάς μοι δέδωκα αὐτοῖς, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς ἕν· 23 ἐγὼ ἐν αὐτοῖς καὶ σὺ ἐν ἐμοί, ἵνα ὦσιν τετελειωμένοι εἰς ἕν, ἵνα γινώσκῃ ὁ κόσμος ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας καὶ ἠγάπησας αὐτοὺς καθὼς ἐμὲ ἠγάπησας.
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“Gary, If it could be proven that John Calvin was indeed a murderer like you claim, it would have no effect on the theology that sprung from the pen of the Reformers.”
Kevin, you are guilty of another attempted deflection. We aren’t debating the theology of the Reformers. We are debating the theology of John Calvin. Same thing with every last reference to “Doctrines of Grace,” a Euphemistic phrase regularly employed to hide the the fact that what is being addressed are the doctrines of John Calvin. As to your statement, “This is why I say we don’t really talk about Calvin all that much,” no, of course you don’t like to talk about John Calvin that much. Anybody who will take a look at his actual life cannot help but see that the man was a reprobate monster.
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Gary, that looks like snippets from it translated so we can understand it!. I see it is from Vedder’s book.
My favorite quote from Hubmair is “Truth is Unkillable” (some translations say immortal). This was said before he was burned for being a heretic.
For anyone interested, you will often hear the Reformers talk about those persecuted by the Catholics and rightly so. But what they leave off are those persecuted by the Reformers. A great book that documents both is called Martyrs Mirror. It weighs about 15lbs. Bring your Kleenex if you decide to start reading about those precious saints who went before us and were murdered, drowned, tortured to death because they disagreed with the state church rulers. There is a trail of bodies and evil so long that anyone who appeals to church history loses me instantly.
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I’m sure you don’t have a problem with Shaff do you? I completely agree with him on Servetus. Calvin was wrong and it should have never happened.
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch16.htm
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Kevin says, ” If it could be proven that John Calvin was indeed a murderer like you claim, it would have no effect on the theology. . .”
Nice try, but somewhere in the red letters (Mt 7:17-18, 12:33) we are instructed to test a tree by it’s fruit. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Theology that sprang from the mind of a megalomaniacal, murdering, psychopath cannot be good theology. I’m telling you, John Calvin has given us a god that looks just like John Calvin.
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“Somehow, our love for one another will be seen and apparent by the unbelieving world.”
From what I have seen at ground zero, “love” for one another in the Calvinist construct means “agree with us” and “don’t question the leader”. It can get nasty, if you do.
Most followers of Calvinist pastors (especially the celebs) are follower types to begin with. I have rarely met an independent thinker among them. Most parrot the party line and proof texts.
Of course I have not met them all but at the same time you cannot swing a dead cat here without hitting a NC/YRR/Calvinist.
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lydiasellerofpurple – noone agrees with what went on back then but that was the fault of the culture……and 500 years from now Christians will look back on us and say “How in the world did Christians back then sit around and let babies be murdered in the womb, what a horrific tragedy.” same thing.
I’ve looked at several commentaries and gave you what I think it means.
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Yes, I have a problem with Shaff. Rives does a really good job of refuting him. If you’ll promise to read Rives’ book, I’m willing to go to the trouble of looking up the page number, or I might be limited to being able to identify chapter and Kindle location.
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Kevin, You have gone through the same process most Calvinists do on a thread like this. You defend Calvin for quite a while, do the proof text war, start deflecting and reframing and then resort to “Calvin was not a Calvinist” defense. But not before you claim “Calvinism” is really the scriptures. (this is ALWAYS my favorite).
I don’t know if others can see it but Calvinism ALWAYS backs itself into a little corner if one is allowed to take it to its logical conclusions. That is why having it analyzed in the public square of the internet has been so very good for so many people. Not long ago, it was punishable by torture, banishment, burning or stocks to disagree with the determinist doctrine. Thankfully, some Deists took on that thinking!!!
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“I’ve looked at several commentaries and gave you what I think it means.”
And what you think it means is something other than what it says.
Kevin, if you don’t accept the inerrancy of Scripture, how can I carry on a conversation with you? 🙂
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“How in the world did Christians back then sit around and let babies be murdered in the womb, what a horrific tragedy.” same thing. ”
No, it is not. Kevin, who taught you logic?
First of all, how do we LET babies be murdered in the womb? By not bombing abortion clinics? By not being a Theocracy? Can we at least use our thinking caps WITHOUT resorting to the authoritarian model you seem to love? (This scares me for our future because we have so many young who want a dictator to take care of us physically and other dictators to take care of us spiritually. What happened to freedom/responsibility?)
Calvin was the ruling elite in Geneva WHO WAS THE EXPERT ON ALL THINGS BIBLCIAL FOR THEM. And
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Kevin, you want to know how we have almost cut abortion down from 5 full time abortion mills to only one in some cities? I know because I was much involved in it years back. You do it with LOVE and REAL HELP.
First you locate pregnancy centers as close to the abortion mill as possible. It is staffed with real nurses and volunteers. (this ain’t cheap) You install state of the art imaging equipment. You also have lined up volunteer lawyers, families to take in the pregnant moms, etc, etc. It is a huge undertaking. Because once that woman walks through your door, and you show her the baby on the image you are responsible to see her through it if she wants to adopt it out or keep it. She will need a place to llive, great medical care, assistance after the baby arrives with a place to live, diapers, food, etc, etc. Job training, etc. And the fundraising for this never ends. The recruitment of volunteers and those who will open their homes to them never ends.
You do this consistently for 20 years and watch the mills eventually go out of business. Then one day, you go to a reunion of about 300 women who came out who were going to abort— and meet their precious children. It is so awesome I can hardly write about it.
LOVE…….., Kevin. It conquers all. Not perfectly. Not all babies are saved. But force is not the way, Kevin. It does not change hearts but makes them harder.
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@lydiasellerofpurple – where is your ground zero? How do you know so many so- called calvninists? you guys act as if you run in circles with calvinists and know a million of them. Do you really know calvinists who follow celeb preachers personally? I don’t. I don’t live near any. There are only a few celeb pastors. Maybe you do. But, you sound like they’re your best friends and you know exactly how they behave and act.
Maybe we’re just talking about two different types of “calvinists” because what you guys describe is not my world at all.
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lydiasellerofpurple – talk about deflection. in 500 years your descendants will look at you and our culture for not stopping abortion and say but, what were the Christians doing the whole time. They just say by. Well, the protested a little here and a little there,but by all accounts, they just sat by and did virutually nothing. EXACT same thing we do when we indict people 500 years ago for stuff they did and didn’t do.
I’m not talking bout bombing abortion clinics…geeze…
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by the way. My Evil Calvinist abusive church started the first Crisis Pregnancy Center in our city. It wasn’t an arminiam church, it wasn’t a catholic church, it wasn’t a house church. It was an evil Calvinist church.
By, the way, do you attend church?
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Gary, you make me laugh, thanks! 😉
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“Maybe we’re just talking about two different types of “calvinists” because what you guys describe is not my world at all.”
Hee Hee. It might be your normal? That happens. Every single Calvinist I know says that while I am watching them live in that world!!! That is why I agreed with David about the blind leading the blind. There is a cognitive dissonance in that movement/world (and most deny it is a movement but it is and has different fronts) that goes beyond doctrine to even their thinking processes.
I think the Calvinist resurgence makes it easier for America to become even more socialistic and dependent on leaders to make decisions for us in all walks of life. It has attracted the young in droves. Calvinist leaders are theocrats at heart if you listen and watch carefully and not allow it to become your norm.
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lydiasellerofpurple – talk about deflection. in 500 years your descendants will look at you and our culture for not stopping abortion and say but, what were the Christians doing the whole time. They just say by. Well, the protested a little here and a little there,but by all accounts, they just sat by and did virutually nothing. EXACT same thing we do when we indict people 500 years ago for stuff they did and didn’t do.”
Kevin, Once again you use NO logic. You are talking about culture and using “culture” to defend Calvin and the Reformers for their evils against even other believers.
That is the Nuremburg Defense, my friend. And it is very dangerous. We hold PEOPLE accountable not cultures. And there were people 500 years ago who bucked that culture. Castillio was one of them. You have to dig to find them but they are there and they gave their lives for it in many instances.
Be careful of that Nuremburg Defense. It is a road paved to hell.
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Trust me, it’s not my norm.
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You know what’s ironic. Since ive been looking into Spiritual abuse, i started to think about my journey and the only pastor I had who was ever manipulative and deceptive and somewhat abusive was an anti-calvinist. This was before I became reformed.
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“By, the way, do you attend church?”
How do you define church? As a building with a 501c4 tax status? And why do you ask? Another litmus test? You see, once I answer then it becomes what kind of church, what is the structure, etc.
You have asked all the typical questions. Here are a few
Do you believe in original sin?
Do you believe in inerrancy?
Do you attend church?
You cannot help yourself. You are setting me up to be a heretic so you can marginalize me in the only way you know how as in “That explains it” you said earlier. Inerrancy is Christian 101. It is actually a pretty new concept for biblical study.
You think I have not been down this road a zillion times? All you do is help to sharpen iron because I am free/responsible to study on my own with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the Priesthood of believer. You still need the gurus. I can tell by your questions. You have been indoctrinated. Freedom/responsibility is scary but worth it, friend.
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“You know what’s ironic. Since ive been looking into Spiritual abuse, i started to think about my journey and the only pastor I had who was ever manipulative and deceptive and somewhat abusive was an anti-calvinist.”
It is no irony to me. I had the same experience. My experience was in seeker megas that are NOT Calvinist at all.
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Kevin, We also make a big mistake when we do not make a serious attempt to learn from the evils of history. Excusing it as “their culture” is not learning from it. We need to discuss why they thought that way, where that thinking came from, those who went against it and how, etc
That is impossible to do when a huge movement of resurgent Calvinism defends a doctrine from that time and the man who systematized it and put it into practice. Geneva of the 1500’s is a microcosm of what Calvinism looks like in application. It is horrible.
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Boy, you jump to quick conclusions. First, I like to know who I’m talking to so I can understand where they are coming from.
It sounded like you were a lone ranger Christian, so I asked. You do realize that Christ gave us Apostles, pastors, teachers, etc. He gave us the church. He died for the Church. I know it’s the universal church but being a lone ranger Christian can be very dangerous.
Ephesians speaks to this.
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[c] and teachers,[d] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
No where does Jesus say, “Stay at home and study for yourself.”
Sorry, it’s just not wise for Christians to be lone rangers.
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More unwise is to adopt the Calvinist perspective on everything lock stock and barrel. It denies the love of God and blasphemes the Christ.
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Kevin says, “no one agrees with what went on back then but that was the fault of the culture.”
Lydia has already responded to this, an I’m already late for work, but this particular argument of yours makes my blood boil. Kevin, do you realize what you have just done. You have just justified the crimes of Joseph Stalin, Edi Amin, Osama Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Heinrich Himmler, and on and on and on?
My bible says no murderer will enter the Kingdom of Heaven (you can look it up). If Calvin was the murderer the historical record appears indicate he was, and if he didn’t repent before he died (and nobody seems to be coming forward with any evidence that he did), then according to his own systematic theology he is destined to eternal, conscious torment. And this is the man whose theology is the basis of the teaching of all the gurus (thanks for the word Lydia) to whom you have entrusted your spiritual life.
Kevin, the best I can tell from across cyberspace, you really and truly are a decent, loving fellow brother of Jesus. But you have entrusted your thought life to people who are not a liberty to honestly investigate the things we have been discussing. Their very livelihoods, along with their social status and source of prestige, would be threatened were they to do so. Few have the courage to risk such things.
Please, please, let me encourage you to look into these things yourself, without all the constant reference to the supposed experts. You are already familiar with one side of the debate. Find the courage to research the other side of the debate. Be willing to follow the truth wherever it leads. Test everything, but be honest with yourself. Be prepared to pay a price. I certainly have done so. It sounds like Lydia has also paid a price, probably a much higher price than I have paid. But all truth is God’s truth, and we dare not assume that any particular group of mere men are the repositories of all truth. Truth will be revealed to us, but we must seek it.
Ultimately, of course, the only Truth is Jesus. I will leave you with one other incontestable truth. I gotta get to work.
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O.K., I can’t help myself. Kevin says to Lydia, “You do realize that Christ gave us Apostles, pastors, teachers, etc.”
Kevin, whatever else she might be, you can think of Lydia as a teacher and prophet.
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Thanks Gary. I truly appreciate your heartfelt thoughts and advice.
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Kevin, It really is interesting—-scripture. You quoted Paul. Jesus makes an interesting statement in Matthew 23: 8-10. How do you deal with that tension? Not speaking of the letter of the law here but the “spirit” of both passages. Could it be we would not recognize REAL “teachers, prophets, pastors, etc” as Paul was referring to? Would they be more like Jesus or John Calvin?
There are so many gurus nowadays making bank off Jesus, I would say some lone ranger Christians studying on their own seeking the illumination of truth from the Holy Spirit would be a very welcome thing for Christendom. We have enough of man’s interpretations out there. Let us have a very intimate PERSONAL relationship with our Savior first while we reach out to love others. Christianity is about RELATIONSHIP. Love God/Love others. And look to Christ to define “love”.
So much of what passes for church operates like corporate America with its hierarchies, profit centers, etc. the Cal resurgence has become a huge business. They are outdoing the seekers with marketing and promotion. I did not think that possible but it was!
There are many who would benefit if they went home to pray and study for a while on their own. I highly recommend they do this and read the Gospels over and over for about 3 years really knowing Jesus, what he did, said, how he operated, what he did not do, etc. Then read Paul through your Jesus filter.
. I do know it would be a hardship for those who make a living off Jesus if people did this. They could rely on the Holy spirit instead of a guru who was indoctrinated at seminary. So be it. It has become ridiculous out there.
Gotta run make some dough myself but not in “ministry”.
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Kevin, I have been a “lone ranger” for a long time now and I have to say I am more now in love with Jesus then I was. I do agree that Christians need other Christians- we are there to give one another admonishment and encouragement; we are there to spur one another on to good works in Christ. I do not however give much stock to the so-called pastors and leaders of our day. The Bible is also very clear about not adding or subtracting to His Word either; and clear about false teachers taking away the hope that we have in Jesus. We are to come to those conclusions ourselves, not leave our brains at the door of someone in the 1500’s who took God’s Word and added to it with his own theology.
I have come to this conclusion for myself that I feel that many had “good intentions”; but they looked at the Bible as it was too simple, too “easy” and therefore they tried to expound on it, add to it. Yes, the Bible clearly states things at face value- you are saved by His grace in freedom of your own choice and live by His principles He has laid out. There is not much more to get all tangled in and if you do, you can wait patiently for the Holy Spirit to give you the answer. However, these gangsters could not leave well enough alone and had to infuse gnosticism so that there is more to the Bible that is hidden and only the “priest” has that knowledge. Now, even in the OT the priest did not have special knowledge other then what was laid out in Leviticus and the 10 Commandments; and this was given out to all the Jewish people. It was plain and clear; but of course the Jewish people wanted more- gnosticism and paganism- hidden knowledge.
We have now been given the Bible and this is what we have. To take certain verses and add or take away from it is what is going on here in Western Christianity and this is why we end up with so many cults and “truths”. Calvinism is not based on the simple truth of Jesus Christ. Kevin I would also encourage you to study about the Donatists and their wish to get back to those simple truths; unfortunately, many were burned at the stake.
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” [R]ead Paul through your Jesus filter.” Thank you for this Lydia. We really do tend to do it other way around, reading Jesus through our Paul filter.
All the emphasis on submission and determinism is one way in which modern Christianity is frighteningly similar to Islam. I suggest that our excessive and primary reliance on Paul is another way in which modern Christianity is similar to Islam.
As Mohammed is the prophet through whom Muslims read, Moses, the other prophets and Jesus, so also we have made Paul the prophet through we read Moses, the other prophets, and even Jesus. In his book, “The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today,” Grudem specifically assigns the role of prophet to Paul (and the other apostles). Very frightening indeed.
Of course the hermeneutic reversal gets compounded, and compounded again, when we read Paul through Calvin, who we read through Edwards, who we read through Piper and Grudem and whoever else has a contract with Crossway.
Back to work.
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Kevin,
I think an important argument that Theologians are addressing is a belief that God in fact Loved and Blessed Esau.
1 Corinthians 13:13 “now these three remain faith, hope, love, but the greatest of these is love”.
Before Esau could be blessed (after he lost his “birth-right”) he had to go through a transformation and repentance. If he didn’t repent he would’ve retaliated against Jacob instead of welcoming him, when Jacob was in distress.
If you read all of Romans 9, the interpretation was Paul was describing “election” to serve, instead of salvation. (or to be “called” or “favored”) This Chapter is the basis that causes disagreement, even among academic christian theologians.
I don’t take issue with God having the “Foreknowledge” of our destiny. (something that we don’t have which is why God warns us about judging)
It is when theologians take it upon themselves to practice and even emphasize their version of “election theology” by taking it out of context. Going so far as being “saved before faith”, like my former Pastor described his wife.
That is what the Pharisees (in Mark 2:16-17) did to the Sinner and Tax Collector, practicing a judging form of “Election or Judge Theology”. The Sinner and Tax Collector weren’t part of the Pharisee circle (who in their minds were the “elect” and then went so far as to rebuke Christ for ministering them.
The abused in the mean time are caught off guard struggling to embrace aggressive “Methodologies” that lack love, feeling trapped and afraid to move on for fear of being judged to hell by the Hyper Abusers.
(and most of the abused don’t even know the Doctrine of the abuser)
I suspect you may not even be a true Calvinist. (if there is such a thing)
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Gary wrote:
Lydia has already responded to this, an I’m already late for work, but this particular argument of yours makes my blood boil. Kevin, do you realize what you have just done. You have just justified the crimes of Joseph Stalin, Edi Amin, Osama Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Heinrich Himmler, and on and on and on?
Not exactly. These were all crimes and atrocities and were never part of the culture of the day. Burning heretics was part of life back then, how awful as it was, it was not a crime per se. Now, maybe what happen with Servetus was, I don’t know, but I wouldn’t say its the same as what you’ve listed.
At any rate, lets say Calvin was a murderer. Moses was a murderer, David was a murderer, Paul was a murderer. What do you do with them? Are they all wolves in sheeps clothing? God uses imperfect vessels to accomplish his means, does he not?
I’m curious as to how you guys reconcile this?
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Lydia
JANUARY 9, 2014 @ 8:42 AM
Kevin, It really is interesting—-scripture. You quoted Paul. Jesus makes an interesting statement in Matthew 23: 8-10. How do you deal with that tension? Not speaking of the letter of the law here but the “spirit” of both passages. Could it be we would not recognize REAL “teachers, prophets, pastors, etc” as Paul was referring to? Would they be more like Jesus or John Calvin?
Honestly, I don’t know how to reconcile the two. Off the top of my head, the context is Jesus telling his disciples not to be like the Pharisees since the Pharisees were a burden to the people and oppressive. So, maybe Jesus was saying don’t prop yourselves up like the Pharisees because the people will not listen to you. But, also, i think this was specially directed at the disciples then and there, and probably doesn’t apply to us, especially since the church has been established and its clear that it has a form of church government and hierarchy (Pasotrs, teachers, deacons, elders, etc).
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Mark, I’ll have to read about the “service” interpretation. Never heard of that. Thanks.
“I suspect you may not even be a true Calvinist. (if there is such a thing)”
Well, one thing is for sure. I’m not a Calvinist like the ones you guys have experienced.
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“Not exactly. These were all crimes and atrocities and were never part of the culture of the day. Burning heretics was part of life back then, how awful as it was, it was not a crime per se. Now, maybe what happen with Servetus was, I don’t know, but I wouldn’t say its the same as what you’ve listed.”
Sure it was a crime- murder was a crime back then. It was just that certain elitists had power to the point they could “redeem” themselves from the responsibility. Not unlike what is happening here- Corrupt elitists being able to fraudulently tax citizens for things, such as, “studies on cows emitting carbon dioxide into the air with their cow patties” and “lavish vacations”. Does this constitute a crime? Of course it does.
When men in power like Saul and David became elite they used it to their gain, not to God’s glory. They were criminals. The big DIFFERENCE is they repented and moved to what was of good. I do not see any evidence of Calvin changing his teachings or repenting of his crimes.
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Moses spent 40 years in the desert. He repented. God worked his sanctification.
David confessed his sin. He, his family and all in his Kingdom paid a huge price. God worked his sanctification through a very costly process of repentance.
Paul approved the murder of Steven (or is it Stephen?), and he was guilty of murderous intent, so I will agree that he is chargeable with murder. Again, however, he repented. There was a period of time in the desert when our Lord was, I presume, working repentance and sanctification in him.
Calvin, on the other hand, premeditated Servetus’ murder over a number of years. When he did not succeed in having Servetus murdered at the hands of the Inquisition, he undertook his on inquisition in which he basically commandeered the lesser council at Geneva. He then proceeded to persecute and eliminate his detractors. He wrote at least one book, the purpose of which was to cover his guilt. He re-wrote parts of the Institutes to provide himself with theological cover. After Servetus’ judicial murder, Calvin managed to get his political opponents burned at the stake. He attempted the judicial murder of one Costillio. If Calvin ever repented of his murders and other crimes, I am not aware of any evidence of it in the historical record.
Yes, we are all sinners saved by grace, but I’m not going to trust the fruits of a murder who never showed evidences of repentance and sanctification.
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Gary , Paul also paid with his life- beheading.
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Not that beheading was a direct result from what he did, but I am sure (just my opinion) Paul felt that this was deserving for the cost of Christ.
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“Yes, we are all sinners saved by grace, but I’m not going to trust the fruits of a murder who never showed evidences of repentance and sanctification”
I would ditto that…..
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Kevin –
“But, also, i think this was specially directed at the disciples then and there, and probably doesn’t apply to us, especially since the church has been established and its clear that it has a form of church government and hierarchy (Pasotrs, teachers, deacons, elders, etc).”
Do you really see a list of gifts to the church and see “government” and “hierarchy?”
Also, how do you apply one section of scripture to there and then, but take other sections of scripture and say they apply as they did then but for now?
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Plus, as I understand it, those who followed John Calvin continued to burn fellow Christians at the stake. I need to do more reading before claiming to speak with authority, but my understanding is that the victims numbered in the tens of thousands.
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Bridget:
Of course. The early church has Elders and deacons, etc.
“Also, how do you apply one section of scripture to there and then, but take other sections of scripture and say they apply as they did then but for now?”
Context. And from this passage, Jesus was specifically talking to the disciples about the actions of the Pharisees at the time, and to not act like them. Sure, you could take the principle and apply it to today, but It seems clear that it was for them. Also, given that in Acts and other places, the church was to have elders, deacons, etc. And we know scripture doesn’t contradict itself.
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Gary,
Tens of Thousands? Come now….lol….historians say that Geneva burned like 38 people or something like that. Tens of thousands. There weren;t even Tens of thousands of people who lived back then!! I don’t think so! 😉
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