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One of the most popular debates on this blog is the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate that spontaneously shows up in threads. I have set up this blog post so the Calvinism/Arminian discussion can continue here, but not “overtake” other important articles. Part 1 had so many comments, over 1,000, the page was taking a long time to load, hence, Part 2.
I’ll use Ed’s post to start it off. Feel free to join in:
Hannah,
I hope you came over here:
You had said:
Hmmmm….well if there is no one there to preach the Word says they are without excuse… Romans 1 says he will reveal Himself to them…My response:
Romans 10:13-15King James Version (KJV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Ed
Spiritual Sounding Board 
@lydiasellerofpurple – Not sure why you see fit to speak for Calvinism when you know very little. Calvin has a volume on the works of the Holy Spirit.
You still never addressed anything I said. How about te Flood? God did that right? How about the Assyrians destroying the Israelites? God caused the Assyrians to do that and then held them responsible. How do you reconcile that?
I dont see the cross as evil, I see it as Love as well….but God predestined and ordained the cross…..but held the Jews and the Romans responsible….how do you reconcile that?
@Ryan – Idols? you just called yoursef a Arminian…..did you catch that?
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“How do you think Soros became a billionaire? on his own or did God have something to do with it?
So, in your world, you acomplish everyything on your own without anything from God?”
Oh dear. Your false dichotomy is showing. God is Sovereign and controlling everything? He made Soros a billionaire? Now there is one of your mysteries since he has wrecked havoc on some currencies. Wonder why God planned that one? To punish third world countries? See, that is a scary road to travel.
I believe God gave most of us the ability to think, plan, do. In our fallen sin riddled world, some folks cannot (mentally challenged, handicapped) so we must help them and do right by them. We can choose what we do for evil or good. As for me, I pray for wisdom and to be guided by the Holy Spirit. However, I am responsible for my actions. I am accountable to my Savior.
Why is it you want to live in a pre Christ world, Kevin?
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Gary,
How about a God who created man, knowing full well, in his omnisciece, that this man was not going to choose him, based on his own free will, and jdiust sits by and lets him go to hell? That’s your view. Why did God make him in the first place, if he knew he wasnt going to choose him? It would have been more loving to never had created him then create him knowing that he wasn’t going to be saved.
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@lydiasellerofpurple – you failed to address any of the verses I stated about God raising up Kings and removing them.
As far as Soros and wicked prospering, read Psalm 73.
Not sure what you mean by Pre Christ world.
We’re all responsible for our actions.
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“@lydiasellerofpurple – Not sure why you see fit to speak for Calvinism when you know very little. Calvin has a volume on the works of the Holy Spirit.”
First of all, I find Calvin’s writings are exhaustingly contradictory (If you can make it that far without your eyes crossing). And I would add that if Calvin really believed in the indwelling Holy Spirit for believers then why would his “keys to the kingdom” interpretation be needed? Why regulate Genevans to the point of mandating church attendance and even down to how many courses they could serve at meals? Calvin’s ACTIONS prove he had no real belief in the Holy Spirit in an individual believers life. He actually acted as their Holy Spirit dictator for them. So how did he know who was a true believer (elect) since so much of the “Christian life” was compulsory? Calvin is one big walking contradiction in words/actions and a total hypocrite.
“You still never addressed anything I said. How about te Flood? God did that right? How about the Assyrians destroying the Israelites? God caused the Assyrians to do that and then held them responsible. How do you reconcile that?”
Justice. I do not read the OT with the same filter you do and I do not read it from a totally wooden “literal” pov as you do. Do you see a progression of how God communicates with his creation through the OT? He is very close then less close then uses prophets and so on until He comes to us as King Jesus?
If you want a picture of God, I highly suggest looking to Jesus Christ. It is worth it.
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Kevin,
In response to you 4:26 pm, two words: The Cross
God did not just sit by and let us go to Gehenna. (I prefer not to use the non-Biblical word Hell.)
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“@lydiasellerofpurple – you failed to address any of the verses I stated about God raising up Kings and removing them.”
Are you speaking of Daniel or Psalms? Or something else. A proof texting defense is bad enough but an OT proof texting defense is even worse. Seriously, what about Jesus Christ?
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“As far as Soros and wicked prospering, read Psalm 73.”
Psalms is man talking to God in poetry. Lots of lamenting. Do you pray imprecatory prayers, too? You don’t need to. You have a Savior.
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Kevin says, “@lydiasellerofpurple – Not sure why you see fit to speak for Calvinism when you know very little.”
I have been privileged to read Lydia’s comments on a number of topics over a period of several months. I must now use a word I prefer not to use in most contexts. Lydia knows a whole hell of a lot more about Calvinism than all the rubber stamp, regurgitate-the-debating-points, logic-free, understanding-free, theologians-as-the-ultimate-authority Calvinists such as yourself.
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“It would have been more loving to never had created him then create him knowing that he wasn’t going to be saved.”
Oh my. Kevin, a love relationship is not about controlling and authority. So no, it would not have been more loving to not created them. It is LOVE to give his creation a choice to love and obey him or not. He made us in His own image, friend.
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I have been privileged to read Lydia’s comments on a number of topics over a period of several months. I must now use a word I prefer not to use in most contexts. Lydia knows a whole hell of a lot more about Calvinism than all the rubber stamp, regurgitate-the-debating-points, logic-free, understanding-free, theologians-as-the-ultimate-authority Calvinists such as yourself.”
Gosh, Thanks Gary, but I can only say it is because I live at ground zero and many have snuck into our love feasts to wreck havoc on the Body and divide us. If they would have simply announced their intentions up front a lot of despair and church splits could have been avoided. You end up learning the unwritten code speak and how they think– over the years. Couple that with studying it and its many gurus and church history and it is enough for nightmares! Bottom line argument is that no matter what you say to them their answer is you don’t understand Calvinism. I have literally quoted Piper to them (without saying so) and have been told that is not Calvinism by Piper followers!
For me, it is quite simple but it took me a while to get there because their arguments are circular black holes that are focused on Sovereignty defined as control. I simply look to Jesus Christ as “God” in the Flesh and fully Human. Did Jesus have the character of God? I think so. I do not see the bible as the 4th person of the Trinity but a narrative Inspired but not inerrant. It in NO WAY replaces the indwelling Holy Spirit. Otherwise those poor illiterate medieval peasants had no chance.
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“Inspired but not inerrant” – what do you mean by this? As in only the original mss were inerrant, or they weren’t inerrant either?
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Sorry guys. You think you know about Calvinsm but you don’t.
“I do not see the bible as the 4th person of the Trinity but a narrative Inspired but not inerrant.”
……you’re arguing about Calvinism yet, you don’t even believe in the inerrancy of Scripture…..well, that explains alot.
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Kevin I think you are probably talking to many here that have been there, done that- I have been in Calvinism and I saw it sorely lacking. There were many contradictions and this coming from a John MacArthur church. I was plague with doubt when I went there because I was starting to doubt my own salvation, something I had never done before. The constant focus was “on the cross”, which was code word for “you never stop going to the cross – you must persevere to know that you are one of His”. Suffering was also heavily taught, as in that unless one suffers one cannot “count the cost” and hmmmm….must not be saved. Lordship Salvation is taught- where unless one has first count the cost, surrendered all, makes Jesus the Lord of all, and has repented and stop sinning YOU cannot be a Christian. Well, my Bible says that when one believes in Jesus as his Savior and realized he was a sinner He will be saved. How does a non-believer know how to count the cost, surrender all, repent and stop sinning at the time of coming to Christ? This is a lifelong and sanctifying process of the Holy Spirit working.
Tell me this also what does Total Depravity have to do with my walk with Christ? Does one teach the TULIP to a non-believer (I doubt that – I do not think they would grasp it) or is this something that a Christian already knowing Christ have to make sure they get this concept? Is it to MAKE SURE Christians are sure of their salvation? I do think that everything for our growth as a Christian is right there in Scripture for us to be confident in our saving grace.
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Lydia you do have a good grasp of getting it for you have been through it.
I have appreciated your comments as well.
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Kevin said, “Gary, How about a God who created man, knowing full well, in his omnisciece, that this man was not going to choose him, based on his own free will, and jdiust sits by and lets him go to hell? That’s your view. Why did God make him in the first place, if he knew he wasnt going to choose him? It would have been more loving to never had created him then create him knowing that he wasn’t going to be saved.”
Kevin, your statement reeks of “control freak” thinking. Yikes!
We desire children before they’re born, knowing full well we can guide, but not control their actions, decisions, destiny. The forms of abuse JA blogs about, don’t come from pride, IMO. They come from an attempt at control.
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“But, I could make the same argument. I follow arminian pastors on twitter and they are as arrogant as anything. The SBC has a crusade againt Calvinism. It’s crazy. I guess there is craziness on both sides.”
The only Arminian of I know is Roger Olson. :o)
Kevin, Have you read “Quiet Revolution” By Ernest Reisinger? If you have, what did you think of the advice/counsel to pastors in chapter 4? Would you agree with it? If you have not read it, it is free on the SBC Founders website.
The “crusade” in the SBC started around the time of that book and it was to take the SBC back to it’s founding roots of Calvinism by stealth. In case you did not know, they (Boyce, Broaddus, etc) were pro slavery and mostly educated by the Presbyterians (Princeton, etc). After the south lost tthe civil war the SBC evolved AWAY from the determinist god of Calvinism who was not, after all, on their side.
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“Inspired but not inerrant” – what do you mean by this? As in only the original mss were inerrant, or they weren’t inerrant either?”
Which translators from which century are you willing to vouch for as inerrant? All we have are translations.
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JA,
It is this type of back and forth that I read on Paul’s blog & later yours, that helped me see both sides & then revise my own opinion.
I actually started out reading Paul’s blog thinking he was crazy & out there, BTW.
I also was YEC all the way, until your post on it & Hannah’s comments, JA. It made me really think. And that’s good. I’ve learned a lot here.
It is extremely helpful, in a safe environment for both debaters & readers, to read & think. These types of discussions are what believers need to help them think & decide for themselves, instead of being lectured to & basically told what to think, without ability to ask questions (during a sermon or seminary class), without being embarrassed or being made to feel stupid.
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“……you’re arguing about Calvinism yet, you don’t even believe in the inerrancy of Scripture…..well, that explains alot.”
Not sure what it explains?
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Mod note: I moved comment by new commenter, Lindy.
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Oops, Trust4HimOnly found the comment while I was in the process of moving your comment here, Lindy. Here it is:
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“Ryan, Please understand I was pursuing this from the pov of discussing such things with the YRR/Neo Cals for years. It is relevant from their doctrinal perspective. They only acknowledge 2 positions for salvation. One being God chose who would be saved before the fall but did not choose all. OR, God chose all to be saved. They claim the latter as heresy so that by default makes their position orthodox. See the dichotomy”
Ahhh. Now I get it. No wonder Seth questioned my salvation from the start. If I don’t agree God picks, I have to be a Universalist. That’s the only other option. Individuals choose God? They won’t allow themselves to even ponder it.
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“……you’re arguing about Calvinism yet, you don’t even believe in the inerrancy of Scripture…..well, that explains alot.”
I understand this one. Kevin is saying if you don’t believe in his translation & interpretation of the Bible as only literal, then you are going to hell. Correct me if I’m wrong, Kevin.
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A mom, this is probably right or they would call you a pelagian.
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“I think sometimes people don’t think about how their words might sound to those “poor reprobate souls” out in the real world who are despairing, trying to find hope and answers”
Lindy, Your words have given me much food for thought. I thought I WAS arguing for a Savior who is pure LOVE. I am so sorry for your experience and how God was presented to you growing up. It is so hard to erase that view of God for so many. And to be perfectly honest with you, I cannot recommend any institutional church to anyone anymore. I am literally afraid to! I have come to the conclusion the Body of Christ does not look like what most of us thought it did.
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Oh no – – – I messed up, T4HO – – I think I just deleted your comment to Lindy. Ack – I’m so sorry!
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“Ahhh. Now I get it. No wonder Seth questioned my salvation from the start. If I don’t agree God picks, I have to be a Universalist. That’s the only other option. Individuals choose God? They won’t allow themselves to even ponder it.”
Exactly. And believe it or not I have had quite a few YRR tell me that I am a Universalist because I reject not only their salvation ordo salutis but their view of election. They cannot even allow for man to have any volition at all in salvation. They claim we are elevating ourselves to God status. But we did not go to the Cross.
We chose to believe in the Cross/Resurrection, repent and follow Christ with the indwelling Holy Spirit.
but we know that Jesus did the “work” of salvation. Not us.
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Over on the other thread Kevin says, “I have never encountered a young arrogant Calvinist pastor.”
Well, I have. He kicked me out of his church. My crime? I had suggested that it would be better to win souls with love than with fear.
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What I’m saying, is that you can;t really argue and use BIble verses to make your case if you are arguing with someone who doesn;t hold to the inerrancy of Scripture. Inerrancy of scripture is foundational. Without it, how can you use the Bible as your source of authority. And this has nothing to do with Calvinism. This is Christianity 101,
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I am sure she would see your post that you moved here 🙂
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“Why is the doctrine and theology in Romans more important than the actual words of Jesus in the gospels? Can anyone explain that to me?”
Lindy, Excellent question. I echo your words. Why endless Paul instead of Jesus?
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Gary, why would you go to a Calvinist Church?
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Kevin,
Many Calvinist don’t know or agree or can find a consensus to what they believe otherwise there wouldn’t be so many Calvinist dialects or different combination Points, practiced by those that proclaim being a Calvinist.
Like I suggested before, it is Calvinist and Arminians that is practicing their brand of Predestination on the abused that is at issue.
You don’t have God’s foreknowledge, and yet many abused believers are forcing themselves to conform to the Abuser’s Methodology, who are emphasizing their Predestination teaching, convincing the abused if they don’t conform and accept their Methodology, they are destined for hell.
And Calvinist and Arminian leaders aren’t yelling loud enough to stop this nonsense.
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A mom, The “inerrancy” issue has become much like the interrogations of Torquemada. Just say the words and you are spared.
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Inerrancy based on the Calvinist mindset or who? Hmmmm…….from what I have gathered Calvin based his views of Scripture with Augustine and Augustine based his views on Scripture with Gnosticism and Plato.
I would have to say that the Holy Spirit is a good bet for my understanding.
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No,T4HO, I deleted YOUR post. I remember it had a comment about me not minding the bantering. Can’t remember the word you used, but I remember nodding in agreement 🙂
UPDATE: I’m losing my brains. I now see your comment. ACK! Maybe a glass of Trader Joe’s cheapo sparkly wine is in order.
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What I’m saying, is that you can;t really argue and use BIble verses to make your case if you are arguing with someone who doesn;t hold to the inerrancy of Scripture. Inerrancy of scripture is foundational. Without it, how can you use the Bible as your source of authority. And this has nothing to do with Calvinism. This is Christianity 101,”
Kevin, What is inerrancy?
Do you agree with the Chicago Statement? Have you ever read the LONG introduction to the KJ translation? Interesting stuff.
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@trust4himonly:
Tell me this also what does Total Depravity have to do with my walk with Christ? Does one teach the TULIP to a non-believer (I doubt that – I do not think they would grasp it) or is this something that a Christian already knowing Christ have to make sure they get this concept? Is it to MAKE SURE Christians are sure of their salvation? I do think that everything for our growth as a Christian is right there in Scripture for us to be confident in our saving grace.
TD simply teaches that the unbeliever is lost and seaprated from God. The nbeliever is dead in his transgressions and sin. The wages of sin is death. And in this state, the person cannot please God because without Faith, you cannot please God. Once an unbeleiver grasps this, then they are ready for a savior.
YOu can teach TULIP or anything to non-believers, but they are non-believers, so not sure what good it will do. But, TD, shows the non-believer his need for a savior.
I have grown more as a believer since becoming a Calvinist than before. And the same goes for everyone in my church.
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Kevin, Does inerrancy of scripture equal inerrancy of the reader & the reader’s interpretation? 😉
If not, then put that one to rest.
Why not make Jesus the foundation of your belief?
Is 1 Cor 13 in your toolbox?
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Lindy,
I don’t know if this helps, but I have come to believe that it may often be easier to find Jesus outside the institutional church. Many here are fortunate to be able to participate in healthy church fellowships, but this doesn’t seem to be the norm.
It seems that if I will do my best to put others first, do a good job for my clients, and generally attend to the thing that is currently before me, Jesus will be in it. Plus, without my consciously setting out to make it happen, it seems I rather regularly find myself in fellowship with other believers.
Doubtless the particulars are and will be different for you than for me. I think what I’m really trying to say, though, is that we don’t have to be part of an organized, institutionalized ecclesiastical organization to be in fellowship with God or with other believers.
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“Maybe a glass of Trader Joe’s cheapo sparkly wine is in order.”
Over the Holidays we were introduced to Apothic Red. You simply must try it. Fantastic and inexpensive.
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Okay Lydia, had to look up Torquemada. Of course, according to Kevin, it was all God’s doing, Tomas himself can’t take any credit for it.
From http://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1201-1500/torquemada-the-torturer-11629905.html
To English ears, the very name sounds tortured and cruel. And Tomás de Torquemada was that. He was a most intolerant man in an age of intolerant men. A Jew, born into a family of converts, he turned most of his fury against his own people.
With energy and connections, it was inevitable that Torquemada should rise to power. After studying theology at the Dominican convent of San Pablo in Valladolid, he became prior of Santa Cruz convent in Segovia. He also became confessor to the royal court. There he whispered in the ears of King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella that many Jewish converts were secretly practicing Judaic rites while outwardly pretending to be Christians.
He helped the royal couple draft a request for an inquisition into this matter. The request was granted. In 1483, Torquemada was made grand inquisitor.
Torquemada developed an oppressive network of spies and secret police. His courts summoned thousands of individuals. Most of them were completely at a loss as to what they were supposed to have done. One third were tortured. The three most common tortures were to be hung by the arms until they were pulled from their sockets; to be forced to swallow gallons of water; and to be racked.
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“TD simply teaches that the unbeliever is lost and seaprated from God”
Actually it teaches “total inability” in the Calvinist construct.
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“I have grown more as a believer since becoming a Calvinist than before. And the same goes for everyone in my church.”
Hmm. Wouldn’t that be asking us to believe your “experience”? :o)
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Yes, I agree with the The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy. And yes, textual variances, etc are very interesting.
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“YOu can teach TULIP or anything to non-believers, but they are non-believers, so not sure what good it will do. But, TD, shows the non-believer his need for a savior.”
That is my point- there is no way they could understand it from the Calvinist philosophy, so what is the need for a believer to understand it and be drilled in the head with total depravity? I already knew that I was a sinner and needed His grace- now I am saved why would I need to know Total Depravity other then the reason that MAYBE it is to create doubt and confusion with the believer that they may not be saved as they once thought, especially if they came from another denomination.
I knew my need for God because of His Word and the Holy Spirit- that is all I needed. After salvation, all I needed and need now is His Word and the Holy Spirit. I do not need to know TULIP.
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Total Inability to save oneself. Total inability to please God in your unregenrate state. A dead sinner cannot please God. How is this foreign to you guys?
When you are regenerated, you now have faith and can please God. This isn’t rocket science.
You guys keep bashing Total Depravity. What do you believe? Partial Depravity? NOthing? We all just get along and go are merry way?
You are quick on bashing things but slow on offering another solution.
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“Yes, I agree with the The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy. And yes, textual variances, etc are very interesting.”
I have always found this article interesting:
Article X.
WE AFFIRM that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original.
WE DENY that any essential element of the Christian faith is affected by the absence of the autographs. We further deny that this absence renders the assertion of Biblical inerrancy invalid or irrelevant.
Here is the full statement:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html
Also at the link are those who wrote the statement.
Anyone else see any cognitive dissonance in article X? Remember, these are very educated Theologians.
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TD is about the unregerenate, not the regenerate. It’s man state before conversion.
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Like I said…not believing in the inerrancy of Scripture says alot and is Christianity 101. And has nothing to do with Calvinism.
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Love that last comment Gary- so true..
I have grown more in love with Jesus out of the church then in it. by the way I have posted it here before but will do it again just in case Lindy would like to listen to him- http://www.thegodjourney.com
Wayne Jacobson was the co-author of The Shack and has his own blog, with podcasts to listen. His whole spiel is being a believer out of the institution and comes across as one of the most loving and humble men. Lindy I would highly encourage you to give it a try; it might just give you some refreshing encouragement. Also, http://www.libertyforcaptives.com is another blog run by Stephen and is one of my favorites. He really understands the victims of abuse.
Both are blessings to me and hope they might be to you.
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“I have grown more as a believer since becoming a Calvinist than before. And the same goes for everyone in my church.”
Actually, Kevin, I thought the same myself. I was becoming knowledgeable in the theology & had it figured out, or so I thought. I didn’t act like it, but my thinking was quite puffed up. And I started viewing people with the eyes of “Now how could that person possibly be a Christian?”
However, I was decreasing in love. Theology NEVER trumps love. If it does, know the theology is bad. Right belief & love fit hand in hand, they are inseperable.
The Bible has much to say about love. Try listening to the NT (a book or more) a week from biblegateway while mowing the lawn, playing with the kids, doing the dishes, shoveling the driveway, or while doing whatever chores you do. If I’m the one who’s got it all wrong, then you have nothing to loose by picking the NT starting with Matthew & listen all the way through.
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Kevin,
You ask why I would go to a Calvinist church? Well, I used to be more Calvinist, probably, than you. Then, one day in about June of 2002, somebody prayed over me to the effect that I would be able receive what Scripture says at face value, without reference to the doctrinal traditions of men. I received that prayer and have been getting in trouble with people like you (and the young, arrogant, Calvinist preacher) ever since.
I had pretty much ceased to be a Calvinist by the time I started visiting the adult Sunday School of this young, arrogant, Calvinist preacher’ church. From time to time some doctrinal issue would come up, and I would show them that the Bible, on its face, indicated something different. They would continue to defend doctrine. I would be astonished that they couldn’t see what the Bible says in plain English, and it all got to be rather humorously contentious. At one point one exasperated older man blurted out something to the effect that I was so smart I didn’t have any sense.
At least you’re only accusing people of not being smart enough to know anything about Calvinism. That still leaves room for us to have some sense!
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Kevin the solution is Jesus and the Holy Spirit living in us that provides the change and growth we need. It is that simple- no big theological terms here
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Trader Joes Apothic Red?….hmmm I will have to try..
I love Trader Joes.
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The doctrine of inerrancy did not exist 100 years ago. And the lead inerrantists have issued a statement that says that the original “autographs”, meaning the original writing, was inerrant. Of course, we do not have those original writings, only copies, of copies, of copies, translated and retranslated. We have politically driven translations such as the KJV, put together in a time when women were pretenders to the throne held by King James and his reign was under threat (as always until Victoria), and there is a resulting bias, and which has words that have totally different meaning than they have today. We have theologically driven translations that omit key phrases (NIV), dramatically changing the meaning. etc., etc. So the whole inerrancy argument is just hot air. What we have today is not inerrant, and the leading inerrantists have said so in their statement.
And proof-texting, out of context, from mistranslated verses, without understanding of the cultural context and the meanings of the day, is foolhardy. And then we get to Paul’s form of argumentation, where he lays out the argument he wants to show to be false or incomplete, then presents his. Proof-text out of the false or weak argument and you get a false or weak doctrine. We must be very charitable, admit that we all see through a glass darkly, and try to learn. The word “predestination” does not appear in the Greek New Testament — it is a translation, and not necessarily a good one. And that is but one example. We need to hold to doctrine loosely and gently, and not demand that others accept our doctrine or be called unredeemed.
There are many who totally screw up the “doctrine” of the Trinity, and no one teaches it well, because it is very fuzzy and leads to confusion. We all agree that there is one God, with three names that we call Him, that one name is associated with God living on earth as a human being, and another associated with being sent as the Comforter, and another was called the Father. And the scriptures do not provide much more than that. John said that the Word was God in the beginning and came and lived on earth. Jesus said “I and the Father are one.” So why is the doctrine of a Trinity necessary? Do we burn people at the stake for saying they believe in one God and do not adopt the doctrine of the Trinity? Is that fuzzy doctrine enough to declare someone anathema?
We must be more charitable. If one claims to be a follower of Jesus Christ, and tries to live out his teachings, and treats people as brothers and sisters in Christ, do we dare demand that they agree with us on every point of doctrine? Or do we accept them as a brother or sister and go on about sharing with those who do not know Jesus?
I think our Savior has a different answer than our behavior here and elsewhere would suggest.
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Total Inability to save oneself. Total inability to please God in your unregenrate state. A dead sinner cannot please God. How is this foreign to you guys?
When you are regenerated, you now have faith and can please God. This isn’t rocket science.
You guys keep bashing Total Depravity. What do you believe? Partial Depravity? NOthing? We all just get along and go are merry way?
You are quick on bashing things but slow on offering another solution.”
YOu have all the Cal code speak down pat, Kevin.
Total depravity as taught in the Calvinist construct says babies are vipers in diapers. They are born sinning. David said so in Psalms. Our very existence is sin. We contain a sin goo we are born with that makes babies want to kill their parents if they were able. So even though babies cannot reason out their sin or do anything about it,, they are guilty. (This is why your construct had to baptize babies…what if they died as babies!!!!) God then holds us accountable for sins we don’t even know we commit because we are born evil. Perhaps crying for a bottle?
At some point, baptizing babies for some Protestants became a problem when reading scripture so they dropped that part and said God would save babies and children anyway. He is not THAT mean! :o)
You guys translate the metaphor “dead” as dead as in death. It is rather bizarre.
So, instead of believing we are responsible/accountable for the sins we know we commit, we are simply evil because we exist. Our existence is sin. (Plato/Greek philosophy: all “material is evil. only the spiritual good—original sin all from Augustine’s quill) And your construct makes it out to be the love/hate thing from God. We cannot please HIM unless HE CHOSE US to please Him. (Sounds like Allah)
In this total depravity construct we are unable and evil and remain that way UNLESS God chose us even before we were born or Adam even sinned.
I agree we are separated from God because of sin/fallen world or whatever you want to call it. I disagree we are totally unable. I am unwilling to go further than that with you because someone who says “that explains it” because I question the concept of “inerrancy” is not someone I am willing to share the precious things with. And I say that with LOVE/concern in my heart for you. I have been down that road too many times and think sharing such things is too personal with someone I suspect will trample them.
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It’s Secco (from Italy) w/ cranberry – $3.99 slightly sparkly and yummy. I’ve never seen it before. We don’t have a TJs where we live and so I stock up when I’m in Portland.
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I find it ironic, that i have been trampled on throughout this entire thread and now you are accusing me of “possibly” trampling on you…..
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Gary, come to my church. You will be welcomed with open arms.
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“I find it ironic, that i have been trampled on throughout this entire thread and now you are accusing me of “possibly” trampling on you….”
I am sorry you think that way. I consider we have been debating…vigorously. As for my beliefs, I will say that I believe God loves you very much.
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A Attorney, here is an example:
have started reading David and Goliath by Malcolm Gladwell and he actually stated some interesting facts about the story that I never heard or picked up throughout my whole Christian upbringing. I believe it because he actually went to Israel and talked with an antiquities guy about the history of David. Being a slinger was not that uncommon for battle, but for this particular battle they were not using slingers. This was face to face combat with Goliath, slingers were not a part of the normal procedure for this. Goliath was also a man who was probably suffering from acromegaly and poor eyesight; with acromegaly one is usually slower and has problem with their joints. When David brought in his slingshot he was looked upon as a kid that did not get with the program- he went against the grain and was an underdog. Saul and his men were actually scared of a giant man who had major problems with his health. Actually, there was nothing to be scared of. David knew this and basically took his strengths and used them to God’s glory. When Goliath saw David he asked him (paraphrased) “you come to me with sticks”. David only had one stick, which showed that Goliath could not see well at all. Instead, of coming face to face in full armor to fight Goliath David used what was the most advantageous and that was kill him with a sling. Goliath was not really the fearsome and horrifying giant after all. God did not do a miracle outside of David – HE DID THE MIRACLE IN DAVID by allowing David to use the gifts that God gave him. David in turn praised God and gave Him the glory.
This comes to show us that we need to take it easy like AA states. The Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ and God) will show us what we need to know; I am confident in that.
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Thank you for sharing this with me, A Mom. I, too, have learned so, so much from my readers. I did not even understand the Young Earth Creation hype – to me, God created the heavens and the earth and it didn’t matter how long it took as long as God created it. Later I had a discussion with my daughter, Hannah, about it and she shared with me how the Young Earth/Old Earth disconnect affected her faith and later, lack of faith. WHY?????? What was this crazy stuff that sabotages people’s faith? As far as Paul Dohse goes, he knows very well I don’t get all of his big words. I thought he was off his rocker, too, and I’ve told him similar things on the phone (because I’m like that – lol). But time and again, after reading these debates or observing responses, I would be reminded, “that’s exactly what Paul said.” Paul is sometimes abrasive, but I understand his heart and so sometimes you will see me let his abrasiveness slide here. He doesn’t want people hurt.
I am so thankful for these rigorous debates. I didn’t know what Calvinism was when I started blogging. I knew only little bits of it. I’m sure I don’t know it all now – – and that makes me think that after being a Christian for over 30 years, obviously it wasn’t necessary for me to know. I need Jesus. He is who I need. I need to seek Him. I need to be like Him. I need other people to see the Christ in me, not the Calvin in me.
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“I need other people to see the Christ in me, not the Calvin in me.”
Ok, I LOVE this!
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Thank you JA- I will write that down. Unfortunately, until I move to Florida I will not be able to enjoy it (I want to move soon for I miss my husband who is down there and me here until I sell my house). Tennessee is a state where you have to go to a liquor store, they do not sell it in the grocery stores. Weird law that has to do with the lobbyists more than anything else.
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T4HO – – I’m wondering because it is cranberry if it might be a seasonal thing?
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I learned a lot from Paul also- really got my noggin to workin’.
It made sense.
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Could be – hope not for it sounds good. Every now and then I love an Angry Orchard pale ale cider though.
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YEC is pushed hard & as fact, quite convincingly, in some of the seminars at particular homeschool conventions….
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Yup, A Mom, I remember my husband taking my daughter to creationist conferences over the years. I was just thankful that he was taking over some of the science and so I was putting the mental check in the box. :::::regrets:::::
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Kevin,
You say you’ve been trampled on throughout this thread. Well, come on. It’s not trampling on you to disagree with you, and the only thing I can think of that might have made you feel trampled upon is that what we have been attacking, your doctrine, has come to be idolatrously held by you. It may be that one (and only one) of the commenters has trampled on you, and he isn’t willing to concede that calling blasphemy by its name is a form of trampling. It is a warning.
As to your invitation, I thank you, but I probably had best decline. It’s not that I doubt your sincerity, for you have been gentlemanly even in your misguided, more-doctrine-than-Scripture absurdity. (Nope, that wasn’t trampling.) It’s just that I suspect that my welcome would last only until I began espousing such things as my firm conviction that any and all organized, institutionalized, church organizations in the Augustinian tradition, including but not limited to Calvinistic churches, are ecclesiastical expressions of either the whore who sits on many waters or else of her prostitute daughters.
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JA, Please know you were instrumental in helping me to back off in my overly confident teaching of YEC. Hannah’s comments were helpful to me in evaluating what exactly I taught this school year, what is fact & what are opinions, in regards to creation. And it was a good reminder creation opinions are not foundational to faith & following Jesus. I am grateful.
Homeschool parents are not hearing other sides at some of these conventions. And these homeschool conventions are leaning more Calvinistic as well, IMO. I’m afraid I was a little too naive because of the “Christian” homeschool umbrella. But I’m getting up to speed, thanks to your blog & wise commenters.
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I was in the same boat, A Mom. You expect when you hear “Christian Homeschool Convention” that it’s going to be run-of-the-mill Christian, not some whackadoo Reconstructonist-YEC-as-primary-doctrine agenda. And when “everyone” goes to these conventions and seems to love them – – what’s a mom to do?
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“NO! God is never evil, unjust, unloving, etc. God does not take lightly anyone maligning His character, nature, being.”
One thing that has really made a big impression on me this week, is the idea that I alone am responsible for my view of God, for what I believe and accept as true concerning him, and why. And far be it from me to think less honorably, or not as highly of God as I should?
On the day when I finally meet my Messiah face-to-face, is he going to ask me why I gave in to despair and listened to people who called evil good and blasphemed against him, killing his heart and character by teaching that he is responsible for or the cause/orchestrator of sin? Or is he going to congratulate me for rejecting such dark and destructive teachings, and choosing to hold onto hope and the fact that he is Love, with all of my might?
Our view of God really does determine what kind of relationship we’ll have with God, and whether or not we’ll even have one at all… Our view of God is EVERYTHING, if we desire to know him and be in a relationship with him. And for me…there is no such thing as healing from child abuse (the pain of which is intensified by determinism teaching) until my view of God is healed first.
So many times I gave up on trying to sleep because the tears just would not stop falling… I would lie there in bed, and cry and beg God for it not to be true, pleading with him to tell me that he’s not like that… “They are trying to take my loving God away from me,” I cried to him… And he showed me that there are many more who are tormented, unable to go to him, thanks to poisonous teaching… He is well aware of it.
Even though I know where I stand now, the pain that teachers of determinism are guilty of causing, will not go away. But what I finally realize is that the pain does not matter and never will matter. In other words, the rotten fruit of determinism in the lives of people is basically irrelevant to those who hold the doctrine dear, instead of a bright red flag like it should be. That is crystal-clear to me now. I too often put my heart out there, only for it to be trampled upon (speaking of) or dismissed…
Thank you forever, to those of you who continue to uphold the character of God and shine hope through this blog by speaking out,
Oasis the Broken Record
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Oasis I loved your heart felt response about the character of God.
All throughout my church experience there was a deterministic approach with God, somehow my own heart did not think that way. I would struggle with the contradictions I encountered amongst the teachings and wonder at times why God felt so far away. Being alone and going through depression was the best cure for my struggle; when I was alone I saw my heart and life taking shape. Most of my church going life has been one of loneliness. When I wanted to use my gifts to serve the church, I was cast aside. I was told to serve here (usually in the nursery; not knocking that because for some that was where their gift was) or there; wherever the leader or elder wanted. No one would engage with me or my family or try to get to know us- it has been a lonely time. Now I realize why this was happening- I am a thinker and would buck the system. I did not fit in the box that many would construct to their liking. I talked a lot about the Holy Spirit working in each and every person; each person had a responsibility to interact with God and find out their own purpose in Him. I don’t think many liked that. When I started going to a Reformed Church I thought I found my place with true Biblical teaching only to my dismay find I went through the worse spiritual ordeal I had ever experienced ( which was 2 years of voices telling me in my head everyday that I was a worm, really hated Christ, was not worthy, etc.). This I know now was Satan and his hold on me in a deterministic view of God. Not until I left did those voices leave and never come back. I did not suffer abuse at the hands of men, but I did see the contradictions of these systems and how easy a church can lose its true purpose – that is love. Love conquers all fears; it is the only thing that drives the doubt, shame and despair away. It was what saved me from becoming a determinist who was wasting my time away on doctrines of men; this love is Christ. Christ does not need our doctrines and is quite able to solve the issues of man. We too often feel we must step in to take care of the worlds belief system and replace it with what WE THINK is what God wants, instead of letting the Spirit change hearts and minds. Our business is to talk about His love for a dying world and then expressing it with what we do. Yes, Biblical study and knowledge is good but without it being expressed through the love of Christ it will have no answers.
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This is what I mean, when I say you guys don’t get us…..
“I need other people to see the Christ in me, not the Calvin in me.”
No Calvinist believes this or would ever say this. The reason we are Cavinist is because we want to be more like Christ and no him deeper. But, you won’t agree with that, but that’s the truth.
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I do want to make one interesting observation that I have noticed.
All throughout this thread, I keep reading “Paul Dohse really helped me out.” “I’m so glad I found this blog, you have taught me alot.” “Before coming here, I didn’t realize this or that, thanks for everything. I’ve learned so much” and on and on and on.
YET. when I say basically, “I have learned alot from Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Spurgeon, Whitefield, Sproul, Puritans, Confessions, Creeds, etc, I/Calvinists am bashed for heretical teaching and blasphemy…..YET, people here can learn from Paul D, JA, other readers, etc. and you are happy about it and there is nothing wrong with it.
Why is Paul D. or JA or any other person on here more equipped to teach and learn that those I have listed and more?
You simply reject one group of teachers for another group of teachers. And yet you don’t see that.
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Kevin, re: your comment @ 5:54 AM,
Let me suggest that the difference lies in the fact that “Paul D, JA, other readers, etc.” are engaged in the process of tearing down doctrinal and other strongholds that keep people from seeing Jesus. They may or may not mention Jesus in a particular comment, but if you follow them, you will see that it is ultimately and only about knowing Jesus–and not about advocating for particular doctrinal traditions of men.
My own experience in Calvinism is that the emphasis was on doctrine, on right thinking, on learning about what Jesus had done for us, on saying the right things doctrinally &c. It was not until I began to walk away from the intellectually rarefied atmosphere of Calvinism that I began to enter into actual RELATIONSHIP with Jesus. It wasn’t until I began to set aside the doctrinal traditions of men that I could begin to see what the Bible was actually saying.
I do not, of course, know how any of this may fit in with your current walk, but I have reason to suspect that your current walk is not unlike my former walk. My evidence? You have a good deal to say about your doctrine, and you constantly appeal to “great men” of your faith tradition. You have relatively little to say about Jesus Himself. You protest, maybe, that your doctrine and these “great men” point you to Jesus. Well, O.K., but why, then, is your emphasis on the doctrine and the “great men” and not on Jesus?
How might you test for yourself where you stand in the faith? I suggest looking at the closing verses of Matthew 25 and all of Isaiah 58. Are you feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, defending the oppressed, housing the homeless, visiting prisoners, caring for widows and orphans, etc. Jesus tells us to the extent we neglect these things, we neglect Him. I accuse myself, but I suggest that if we do not find ourselves by natural inclination doing these things we should fear for our own salvation.
Oh, and as to whether Jesus is getting His money’s worth from whatever money you contribute to your church, what percentage of your donations go to feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, defending the oppressed, housing the homeless, visiting prisoners, caring for widows and orphans, etc? When I look back at what was done with all the money I contributed to organized church over many years I feel absolutely swindled.
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Gary W, I would also add to that any “my walk with Jesus +……..” is just a pile of rubbish. He wants all of us + none of what man has conjured up.
Kevin, I treat Paul and others who give wisdom as my equal not as my Theologian with a capital T. I am sure along the way they may glean something from me as well.
The thing is I can take it or leave whatever someone says according to what the Spirit wants me to glean or not glean. I trust in Him to guide me to truth, not some 1500 AD Reformed guy with a face that looked like he swallowed a whole jar of pickles.
I don’t see love on that guys face nor in his teachings nor in how he treated the people under him.
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Gary, straw man argument. I would love to talk about Jesus non-stop but I’m in constant defense mode. You say they are tearing down doctrinal strongholds. How do you know? Maybe they are leading people astray? Where did they get this knowledge and insight? Why hold them up as experts and tear down men who have stood the test of time?
As for my heart. Just to give you a little quick background. 10 years ago, I moved into the innercity and bought a house and created a ministry called Firm Foundation House, where I rented rooms to innercity men for cheap, to help them grow spiritually and financially. I helped them get out of debt and so forth. My house has had all walks of life come through it. My wife and I have bought cars for people, given shelter to people, clothed people, etc. And we’re not rich by any means. Not even upper middle class. I wish I were rich so I could do more. But we do what we can with the resources God has given us.
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Just a little bit of info: my husband over the holidays received a tract that look like a dollar bill with JCalvins face on it (shudder). This guy went to a reformed church and he told my husband that coming through the teachings of JCal were the way to salvation. Now if that don’t beat all!
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@trust4himonly – We do that same thing….what’s your point? We don’t believer everything Calvin, luther, etc believer. We test it and go from there.
Not sure what your point is about making fun of a drawing of some guy 500 years ago. Is that loving?
These men risked their life to give us doctrines that were held captive by Rome.
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Kevin, Those in Calvin’s Geneva did not have a choice. “Learning” from Calvin was mandatory or you were punished. And that included falling asleep during his long sermons.. Today, many YRR churches are requiring membership covenants be signed and are engaging in what I would call over the top discipline method to control people. They are authoritarian (when you dare dissent) they can seem very benign like CHBC until you take a long hard look. CHBC…. which teaches the keys to the kingdom stuff, is a good example. Calvinism lends itself to authoritarianism. We see it all over the place. SBTS, SGM, Mars Hill, CHBC and on and on. The older denoms who are more Frozen Chosen types have ecclesisastical stuctures in place but they are also more liberal and focus on a social gospel which makes total sense when trying to play down the determinism of their founders.
Conversly, Paul, JA and others do not make their living selling a doctrinal stance as the gurus do. They do not need followers to suvive. And both have been through horrible experiences at the hands of “geat men of God”. Wolves and hirlings. They want nothing from you. they simply put info out there. It is our choice to click through and leave if we do not like it. It is becoming harder and harder to leave a YRR/Calvinist church on good terms these days. That may not be your experience but it is the experience of many whether you realize it or not.
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Kevin we get that wisdom from the HOLY SPIRIT! Do you trust in God? I an sure your answer is yes. Do you not think God is able enough to give us the same knowledge and wisdom as he would a pastor? Or do you concede that only certain men can impart that knowledge? If so that is called Gnosticism and Platonism and Augustine was a proponent of it. And who followed the teachings of the Catholic Augustine – John Calvin
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@trust4himonly – so what? so, he came across some idiot.
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Kevin I could care less whether I said he looked like he ate pickles – he did! There is no care or concern on that mans face. He looked pious for sure.
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Now Kevin I was not the one who called this guy an idiot.
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“Calvinism lends itself to authoritarianism” – you guys keep saying this but it’s not true. I have never experienced this as a Calvinist. PRIDE lends itself to authoritarianism.
Rome was the biggest authoritarian on the planet and it’s not calvinistic.
Islam is probably the biggest authoritarian religion on the planet and its not calvinistic.
Atheism is extremely authoritarian and its not Calvinistic.
I could go on and on.
You guys want to blame Calvinism for all societal ills. And its not. I’m sorry for your experiences with SGM, etc. but that its not the norm. SGM should be shut down. and so forth. But its not Calvinism driving them to do this. It’s PRIDE.
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“I am a thinker and would buck the system.”
Ha! Good for you, trust4himonly! But how sad, and unsurprising, that you experienced such loneliness. I can relate to that, and also to the torment that comes from being taught about our so-called worm status. “You worthless worm, evil through-and-through, I am your Holy Spirit now, and God has no affection for you, but merely tolerates you, having randomly saved you from the fires of hell on a whim. Also, if you struggle against any particular sin at all, you’re probably not saved.” Took me years to climb out of that hole, also…
I am so happy that you saw the contradictions in those systems. Yes, God does not need doctrines of men, and neither do any of us. Feeling so free right now, may very well take off flying any second here!
“Love conquers all fears; it is the only thing that drives the doubt, shame and despair away.”
Really love this line, how true! And yes, that love is Christ…so profound. Amazing.
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trust4himonly – what is your point. Have you ever seen pictures of people in the old days? Noone has a smile on their face. Look at some old black and white photos of the 1800’s. You’re drawing conclusions from the expression on a mans face….drawn by someone……hilarious.
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HOT OFF THE PRESSES – PAUL DOHSE JUST POSTED A GREAT CALVINISTIC POST.
Paul M. Dohse @PaulMDohse 12h
4 Hyper-Grace Myths: God Loves Everybody, Backslidden Christians, Sinners Saved by Grace, and… http://wp.me/pmd7S-p4 via @wordpressdotcom
http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2010/10/13/4-hyper-grace-myths-god-loves-everybody-backslidden-christians-sinners-saved-by-grace-and-its-wrong-to-fear-god/#comment-34874
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Maybe because they were trapped in the same religious systems – no joy there, you are right. God says ” a cheerful heart is medicine to your bones.”
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Oasis thank you for your sweet reply and I loved your “feeling so free now I could fly” comment. I know that feeling as well. 🙂
Kevin, all this talk on Calvinism won’t change any of our minds for it so we can concede that it is Christ who is the Truth right? In this we can also concede that man is not superior over God? Right? So there is no need for frustration or worry over the fact we don’t agree- right? For if you are right, God “predestined” what stands as truth anyway so what is all the fuss trying to argue that Calvinism is right? Will it not win in the end? I doubt it however for I believe Love and freedom trumps that card.
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@trust4himonly – Of course. Calvin is just a man who formulated some doctrines. God is sovereign over his creation. Christ is our ALL in ALL.
I don’t think it’s as much fuss as me trying to say Calvinism is right, as it is more of anti-Calvinist saying that Calvinism is wrong and evil. And we defend. Oh, don’t get me wrong, I would want everyone to believe these doctrines are the proper dividing of Gods word, hence, you will have a better understanding and love for God. Obviously, you will disagree, but thats my belief.
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Kevin,
I appreciate your testimony at 7:10 AM. Even I will concede that there is hope for you :), however darkened your mind may have been made by the doctrine of the murderer of Geneva 😦
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lol
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Love it! Cracked up at what Gary said and Kevin’s response. Funny!
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Kevin,
Personally, I think the dialogue is important.
I have studied Rom 9:11-13 a passage that I think may not be understood. First I believe God loved Esau but favored Jacob. Later in Jacob’s life he feared Esau would retaliate for taking the blessing, instead what Jacob received from Esau was love and welcome and forgiveness, a lesson we all can learn from Esau.
The term Predestination is a misunderstood term in scriptures even among people who proclaim to be Calvinist.
What some of the abusive hard-line Calvinist and Arminians are doing is actually practicing “prededstination” with a harsh Methodology lacking “Love” on their Congregations.
Over-emphasizing “predestination” above Christ, over-emphasizing “predestination” above following Jesus, over-emphasizing predestination above the gifts of the spirit, over-emphasizing “predestination” above personal choice of believing and following Jesus within an individuals personal capacity and journey in having a relationship with God.
The abused are held captive and serving the Hyper hard-liners needs, while the Hyper guys ignore that not everybody has the same spiritual gifts or the same skill capacities. In some cases the Hyper guys are putting up permanant “predestination” walls between Congregations and Christ in order to stretch an individuals capacity to grasp his Doctrine and be part of the “Elect”. (like a mental boot camp)
“Predestination” preachers believe and emphasize to their congregations of lacking evidence (works) to be be saved and then in the same breath emphasize “one could be doing everything right and not be saved”. They are making what Christ did on the cross less important. Many of these ministries are more “Sin Centered” rather than Christ Center”. They spend more time repetitively explaining why we shouldn’t recieve salvation focusing on man’s un-holliness, rather than leading them to Christ and his holliness.
But hey, how can the “Elect” lead the already “Elect” to Christ?. The “non-Elect” has no hope anyway.
The Hyper guys are taking God’s Foreknowledge to a destructive level and operating in a way that if you don’t follow them, you will be judged to hell and even then, they will emphasize doubt of one’s salvation.
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“Rome was the biggest authoritarian on the planet and it’s not calvinistic.”
Huh? Are you not familiar where Calvinism CAME FROM? Why was it called the “Reformation” and the people ‘Protestants”? They wanted to “Reform” the Catholic church. And those people were “protesting” indulgences. They basically replaced the sacraments front and center with a pulpit and made preaching the star of the show. They did NOT get rid of church/state thinking and authoritarianism. It is just the ways and means are different including their clothes.
“Islam is probably the biggest authoritarian religion on the planet and its not calvinistic.”
Wrong again. Calvinism has a determinist god. So does Islam. Calvin’s god grace for SOME but not all because there is no human volition.
“Atheism is extremely authoritarian and its not Calvinistic.”
I am not aware of any structural institutions that are purely atheists unless it is a cult sort of group. Perhaps Scientology? They are extreme authoritarian but are also a big cult. I would love to hear your resource for Atheist authoritarianism. You most definitely have some very arrogant ones. But so are many Christians.
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“These men risked their life to give us doctrines that were held captive by Rome.”
Actually, They sold out to the political structure for safety and power. Those who risked their lives for truth are called the Ana Baptists today. They were not monolithic and you don’t hear too much about them because they were always on the run. The victors write the “official” history. One has to dig to read around it.
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