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There is more unrest at Vision Forum as the Board of Vision Forum Ministries today announced the closing of Vision Forum (VF) Ministries. This announcement comes 12 days after Doug Phillips announced his resignation from VF as president, and allegedly nine months after Phillips stepped down from his pastoral role as “teaching elder” at Boerne Christian Assembly.
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The Closing of Vision Forum Ministries
In light of the serious sins which have resulted in Doug Phillips’s resignation from Vision Forum Ministries, the Board of Directors has determined that it is in the best interests of all involved to discontinue operations. We have stopped receiving donations, and are working through the logistical matters associated with the closing of the ministry. While we believe as strongly as ever in the message of the ministry to the Christian family, we are grieved to find it necessary to make this decision. We believe this to be the best option for the healing of all involved and the only course of action under the circumstances.
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Related article:
Infidelity Scandal Just Shuttered Major Biblical Patriarchy Organization
Spiritual Sounding Board 
I’m actually surprised.
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Lynette: The public statement of repentance by Phillips somehow seems shallow in light of this very strong response by the board.
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Reblogged this on Paul's Passing Thoughts.
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Blessed be the Lord.
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JA- yes, I know. Thats why I am surprised. I posted on FB under this. They say serious sin, compared to his letter stating not knowing her in the biblical sense. Way more to this story.
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Holy cow!
Sorry folks. That’s just my first gut reaction.
I’m surprised, too. Especially since so many of his supporters treated his indiscretion as no big deal. Must have been a bigger deal than most of us realize.
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I guess living by the same gospel that saved us fell a little short this time.
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Bottom line: expectations are reality no matter how much the New Calvinists state otherwise.
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They are busy cleaning up the website, too. It’s so strange, I was in the middle of a blog post about family-integrated churches, went to the VF site to grab a link and saw the announcement. I wonder when they posted it?
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Maybe they have something to hide, and discovery will be more difficult if they have closed their doors. Something like that. Can I believe that it’s anything but legal bookie-covering?
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Is it just me, or should we expect something to be hitting the news wires in the near future?
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Remember, this is not VF, Inc. But giving up the donations? My my. Something big is coming. I agree with Paul. Not sure they can keep whatever it is from the newswires for long.
JA, You think there is a lot of deletin’ going on?
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This was tweeted 8 hrs ago from the profit side of Vision Forum where Phillips still earns $$:
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Something big is up. But I doubt we will get the full story.
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Well, there goes any chance of him being declared “redeemed” or “repentant” or whatever term they would use and going back into this ministry several months down the road. I agree with those of you who believe there’s more to this than Phillips would have the world believe.
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Definitely they have removed things off the website. Here is the Wayback Machine for late October: http://web.archive.org/web/20131030053321/http://www.visionforumministries.org/
and what it looks like now: http://www.visionforumministries.org
I have found missing articles, too, but I’m not sure when they vanished. I found the same thing at the NCFIC site as well. This reminds me of how T4G removed CJ Mahaney articles. Watch the patterns, people: image control and damage control.
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Wow. My spidey sense is tingling. I’m thinking there’s more to this than just a sex scandal. Wonder if John MacCormack at the San Antonio Express-News would be interested? (He’s done stuff on Scientology and Madalyn Murray-O’Hair in the past.)
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Does his mean no more father/daugher retreats!!
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I wanted to post this comment that came in earlier today. I was actually in the process of incorporating it into a post when I checked the VF site and found the announcement, but it’s an important comment. Take special note at the sermon by Scott Brown – long-time friend of Phillips and also the director of NCFIC – the family-integrated church that was originally part of Vision Forum and in 2009 split to form its own organization.
T.W. Eston
NOVEMBER 11, 2013 @ 10:15 AM
My comment goes to several questions that you’ve raised in your excellent article. It’s a lengthy comment that I just also posted Doug WIlson’s blog (one of those blogs that accuses you and others of being “gleeful” and “chortlers”). I have no idea if Doug Wilson will approve my comment, so I’ll also leave it here for posterity:
______________________
Pastor Wilson, I’ve seen some of the gleeful comments too, and they disturb me. They are sinful, no doubt. But does that sin, in and of itself, necessarily identify them as “enemies of the Lord”? You go too far in committing the same sin of judgmentalism found in those you seek to condemn. Why not just issue a pastoral call for the gleeful to repent, without assuming they are God’s enemies? I fear you evidence a similar legalism, and hastiness to condemn, as Doug Phillips has shown.
Many have commented that Bourne Christian Assembly, the church founded by Doug Phillips, is a cult. One indication I would look to in a cult is how much control do the pastors/elders/deacons exercise over their members, such as how tightly do they control the flow of information to and between members and from the inside to the outside world. We’re only learning now that Doug Phillips resigned as elder/pastor of Bourne Christian Assembly in February 2013. That in itself should have been significant news, but word of that never leaked out. That’s some impressive people control! Only a handful of people outside BCA knew of Doug Phillips’ resignation in February 2013. It included Voddie Baucham and Scott Brown. Maybe one or two others. Other than that his resignation was very hush hush. Why the secrecy? The fact is Doug Phillips has been trying hard to clamp the lid on a scandal that’s been boiling up for some months. Eventually he could control it no longer and had no choice to out himself in an effort to minimize the damage.
Voddie and Scott started distancing themselves from Doug even some months prior to that resignation in February, as have some of his other close associates. Would they have done so had Doug Phillips genuinely, convincingly repented when he stepped down as elder in February? Unlikely. Had there been genuine repentance it could have all been handled “in house” and privately. Repentance means we not just acknowledge the sin, but that we stop sinning. What many commenters here are assuming is that Doug Phillips can be trusted to have repented solely on the basis that he says he repented. But some of his closest associates, men in the know, aren’t convinced and long before his Oct 31 VFM resignation pulled away from him.
They have known of Doug’s infidelity for quite some time. Most chose not to cover for him but just quietly distanced themselves. Now that Doug Phillips has outed himself (or rather been compelled to out himself), many of his faithful patrons/customers are defending him, as is evidenced by some of the comments right here (not saying such comments here come from Vision Forum patrons, but merely that they evidence the same bias). But a few of his closest former associates, in the know, aren’t doing the same.
One of Doug Phillips’ long standing and closest former friends and ministry associates preached a sermon yesterday entitled The Smell of Apostasy. It was clearly motivated by the October 31 public announcement of Doug Phillips that he had resigned from Vision Forum Ministries. I’ll quote from a key point in that sermon.
_______________
The Smell of Apostasy, Isaiah 5:8-30
Scott T Brown
sermonaudio.com
39:37 — “One of my dear friends has fallen into a great sin. And there are many people that say, ‘Oh, that could have been me.’ But the truth is I hope not, because one falls into that kind of sin after many, many small compromises long before. No one just immediately falls into that sin. They fall because they have been falling. My friend Paul Washer says, ‘You don’t fall into sin. You slide into it.’ Because every public sin is a private sin beforehand. I was telling our interns the other day that I could take everything I’ve done over forty years and destroy it in one second. All I would have to do is kiss a girl and in one second it would all be over. Everything. It would all be burnt to the ground. But let me just make this point. You do not kiss a girl without doing many other things beforehand. You do not fall into sin. You slide. You make one compromise after another. Every public sin is a private sin for a very long time before… Brothers, mortify, expunge, every vestige of lust that would inflame it… But you would not do it [immorality] if you did not cultivate it. So do not cultivate it… Please do not burn everything to the ground. Please do not destroy everything that you’ve worked for your entire life. Everything you’ve ever done will be compromised and everything you’ve ever done will be burned to the ground.”
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I am thinking there is a financial scandal involved. The man is screaming to be audited with that web he has woven of income off Jesus.
Wonder what good old Patriarchal Paul Washer is thinking? I knew he made a big mistake a few years back promoting Doug Phillips teaching on manhood. Paul liked to set himself up as Mr, Honesty and Ethics
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Lana – They removed the April 2014 father/daughter retreat from the website. Maybe no more daughters shaving their dads???
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This comment came in on the SSB FB page:
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Can someone here enlighten me as to why Paul Washer seems to be cast in a negative light in the comments here?
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Seth: It appears that Paul Washer has endorsed at least some of the patriarchal beliefs of Doug Phillips and Doug Wilson.
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“All I would have to do is kiss a girl and in one second it would all be over. Everything. It would all be burnt to the ground. But let me just make this point. You do not kiss a girl without doing many other things beforehand. You do not fall into sin. You slide.”
This is from the Scott Brown sermon that JA included in her 3:48 comment above.
Does anyone else find it odd that Scott refers to “girl” twice, instead of woman? Or is “girl” the word he normal uses when speaking of a “woman”?
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This is incredible. These men are very secretive – so much so that my cousin in the same city had never even heard of their “church”. I would assume that the dissolution of VFM has been in the works for quite a while now but they will release as little information as possible. Thank you JA for alerting us to the changes as they are released.
In other good news, my hand is starting to feel a tiny bit better now, just in time for me to fly 3 hours to visit my special someone. I probably won’t comment much over the next week as I will be a little bit preoccupied. 🙂
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Seth, I expect it only scratches the surface, but it took about 3 search engine submissions to locate this article, which may partially answer your question:
http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2012/06/09/g3-baucham-washer-lawson-a-gathering-of-calvins-spiritual-despots/
Some are associating Washer with an extreme form of Calvinist ideology, which they have identified as a source of spiritual abuse. Not everybody who participates here has a dim view of Calvinism, and I deeply respect them. Still, you were asking why it might be that Washer is viewed negatively by some. Maybe this helps.
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Is this legit or just a smokescreen?
In the old Soviet Union, they had this bureaucratic trick of renaming agencies or organizations when they got too “hot” and “creating” new agencies with different names — ChEKA to OGPU to NKVD to KGB (and post-Soviet to FSB). The disbanding was ballyhooed and spun, but in actuality only the name had changed; otherwise, it was Business As Usual under the new name.
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Might be significant, might not be. I often use the word “girl” instead of “woman” in casual speech. But with these guys, you never know for certain. What’s innocent casual speech and what is code words.
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Seth – Paul Washer closely associates with these guys at family-integrated conferences and speaks with them (with a quick Google search, I found a conference in which he spoke with Phillips, Ken Ham, Andy Davis, and Scott Brown).
Here’s more: https://carldeyarmin.wordpress.com/tag/doug-phillips/
http://www.bereanwife.net/page/2/?s=paul%20washer
He’s present in this video series. Hmm, this just came out around the time Phillips issued his statement and he’s pictured on the video: https://ncfic.org/uploads/events/Worship_Videos.html
Hmm, this is weird, this conference dated October 31 (day of statement of resignation), says “we enjoyed” Doug Phillips. I just left a note to ask if he spoke. That is confusing to me. (JA note: I was just informed this was 2012, not 2013. Deleted comment at the site.)
http://www.ourfullhouse.com/40-trips/872-white-unto-harvest-conference.html
Ok, this is only the first Google page.
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“We believe this to be the best option for the healing of all involved…”
Hmm…I wonder which harmed parties VF would include in the “all involved”…?
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Remember the lesson of the Disappearing Commissar(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union
(A historical reference that George Orwell got a LOT of mileage from when he transposed 1948 Russia’s ways of doing things into his dystopian 1984 England.)
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Thanks Discomfort and Gary, I read Paul’s post. I thought it was an excellent article against Calvinism as practiced by Calvin, but a tad scanty in details regarding why a Washer is condemned along with him. Is it just because Washer is a Calvinist that he’s lumped in with these guys? Isn’t that too hasty? Or are there other reasons?
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Seth: He goes along with much of the ideology that VF stands for: family-integrated churches, courtship, homeschooling, etc.
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Seth,
You ask good questions. At 5:12, Julie Anne spoke to the question of Washer’s associations. I can only speak for myself, but I suppose I do tend to think that a person’s associations, as well as their doctrinal positions, say something about who they are. I would go so far as to say that a history of questionable associations tends to shift the burden of proof from the one who would criticize to the one who must, consequently, now defend.
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Just added this link. The story is breaking in news media now. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/11/infidelity-scandal-just-shuttered-major-biblical-patriarchy-organization/71484/
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Of course, one must be careful. My idea of discerning a person’s character by their associations failed miserably when applied to Jesus — though only as the test of association was applied by those who were themselves associating with the wrong crowd, with the hypocritical religious leaders of their day.
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Seth, I think he believes people are born depraved & sinful from birth. Unworthy worms in need of guidance AKA authority.
That thinking often goes hand in hand with hierarchy & submission. Patriarchy. Certain men are enlightened, all women are not.
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JA, the conference you referenced appears to have been in 2012 not 2013!
JA note: Thanks, An Attorney – – I made a correction on the comment above.
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I have to wonder if it wasn’t a man – not a woman – that he had the affair with.
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“knowing in the biblical sense” implies the possibility of conception, so vaginal intercourse. Other forms of sex????
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A mom, There are many people who believe in human sinfulness and depravity who don’t necessarily also believe in a domineering abusive patriarchy, myself being one such person. 🙂
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@ Julie Anne:
Emergency clearance? As in, “everything must go”?
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Bet this wasn’t in the 200y plan…
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I would say that we should boycott Vision Forum INC products.
However, being a non-dominionist, make that boycott AND girlcott.
Cuz Doug Phillips, he got caught, in webs of his own devices.
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“In conscious opposition to feminism, egalitarianism, and the humanistic philosophies of the present time, the church should proclaim the Gospel centered doctrine of biblical patriarchy as an essential element of God’s ordained pattern for human relationships and institutions.”
This, to me, looks like a pig in a bathtub, all cleaned up with a bow on its head and lipstick smeared on its precious little mouth. But it’s still a pig.
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VF profits and prophets in decline.
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I have to agree that believing in human sinfulness does not have to lead to patriarchial or otherwise authoritarian beliefs. We believe the patriarchs and others in authority are sinful too, and we have to watch them as much as they watch us.
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LOL, Bad Busta. Welcome 🙂
You are quite witty. And I think you could be right about both the prophets and profits.
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they’re misogynists.
and mrs-sogynists.
and they missed God’s point.
three strikes and dey out!
make that, three miss-takes and dey out!
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Given Doug Phillips reputation for being litigious, and given the VF board would be well aware of his temperament and penchant for control, is it possible they are choosing not to bow to possible threats?
“…the best option for the healing of all involved and the only course of action under the circumstances.”
These are people used to manoeuvring, the word only seems to denote more than emotional and relational distress.
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@Hannah:
I think unlikely. Homosexuality is THE Big Taboo in those circles.
Though a male-supremacist culture WOULD feel a pull towards male homosexuality. How else could a man have sex with an actual PERSON instead of just a woman? As one ancient male-supremacist culture put it: “Women for breeding stock, Men for love, Boys for pleasure.”
Add a strong homosexuality taboo to that male-supremacy (as you have in patrio Christianity or Extreme Islam) and the culture will always be torn between the two.
@An Attorney:
“Other forms” as in Driscoll or Clinton?
You’re a lawyer, you work in an environment of precise definitions. And you’ve probably seen how to play fast and loose with those definitions. If “Sex(TM)” means Tab A in Slot B and ONLY Tab A in Slot B, you could stick any other tab in any other slot, wipe your mouth, and announce “I have not sinned sexually”.
Like that one Tsar who claimed “Is no slavery in Russia. Here we call it “Servitude”.
P.S. In an online dictionary of modern slang, “Christian Side Hug” was defined as “oral/anal sex, done to preserve technical virginity.”
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@A Mom:
Like Calvin when he was God’s Predestined Dictator of Geneva?
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@Gary W:
Jesus had a talent for taking others’ expectations and turning them one-eighty.
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The Atlantic article states that Vision Forum took in 3.3 mil in 2011.
“The ministry paid Phillips a salary of $44,000 a year, and gave an additional $193,176 for “labor and services” to the for-profit company in 2011.”
Would the board permitting him to keep the for profit be altruistic, given he has a wife and 8 kids to support? Or is it possible he got the for profit because he knows where the bodies are buried?
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“A mom, There are many people who believe in human sinfulness and depravity who don’t necessarily also believe in a domineering abusive patriarchy, myself being one such person.”
Seth, you are right. Which is why I said “often” and not “always”. I think it’s more people than you think. Like Paul Washer, for instance. 🙂
Glad you are not one such person.
I want to also point out that most churched people would say they are 100% against abuse. However, in actually dealing with abused or abusive, some start to back-peddle in all sorts of ways (denial, marginalize, blameshift, etc). And abused are left hurting, abusive are free to hurt. That happens way too many times. Not saying that’s you, BTW.
And some who have been spiritually abused themselves come across as “just get over it” when it comes to others. We’ve seen that from a few folks who have stopped in here.
Suffering as a solution. Suffering as ordained by God.
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“Like Calvin when he was God’s Predestined Dictator of Geneva?”
Yes, Suffering with no end in sight. Suffering at the hands of a man with an iron grip. That’s how one brings order & authority & salvation to those who would dare disagree with such things as infant baptism.
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Somebody, please…where did Jesus say anything about patriarchy? If anything, Jesus was rather casual about the family order (thinking about Matthew 12:48 in particular).
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I wonder if lawsuits were launched on either side and were settled? Nine months is a long time between stepping down and making a public declaration.
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I really, really hope his inappropriate relationship wasn’t with one or more of his daughters.
Such a thing would be oh, so easy in a world where daughters are taught that God commands them to listen to their fathers, where daddies should own daughters’ hearts and no school teaches you of good and bad touch…
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Retha, I don’t think anything happened with his daughters who are minors. If that were the case, it seems he would have turned himself in around time of the public statement or someone else likely would have and there would be an arrest.
However, think of all of the stay-at-home daughters who are adults and have been raised with the same rules regarding men and their authority.
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Southwestern Discomfort asks, “Somebody, please…where did Jesus say anything about patriarchy?”
“And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.” (Matthew 23:9, ESV)
The Greek for “father” in this verse is “pater” from which, according to dictionary.com, the English words “father” and “patriarch” are both derived. While the Bible recognizes the existence of human patriarchy in ancient cultures, Jesus specifically condemns the practice.
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I just posted this on TWW. Brad Sargent found that Phillips was president AND treasure of the board at VF and he commented:
Ok, check this out:
1.President AND treasurer at VF Mininistries
2. Owner of Vision Forum
3. Founded San Antonio Independent Christian Film Festival
4. Founded NCFIC and was on board until recently
5. Was pastor at Boerne Christian Assembly (one of two teaching elders until he allegedly stepped down or was forced out in February)
6. Patriarch of his home.
Ok, that was just off the top of my head. Has Phillips ever been “under” anyone? Wait a minute – – he did work for HSLDA as an attorney, and interestingly, I recently saw a public comment by Mike Farris (head of HSLDA) about Phillips which surprised me:
Maybe things didn’t work out so well for him being “under” Farris at HSLDA?
The pattern we see here is that Phillips is a man who is very used to being in control of everything.
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Paul said “I guess living by the same gospel that saved us fell a little short this time.”
That’s because they don’t do that. These people are the biggest moralist nitpickers on the planet, next to Westboro.
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I don’t have a problem with Family integrated church approaches, per se. I do have a problem with thinking that that is the end all and be-all, just as I’d have a problem with thinking any other particular church structure will guarantee our churches to be relatively free from problems.
Washer is portrayed as negative in my book because he causes people to look inside themselves for some experience or for growth in holiness for assurance of salvation. Anyone struggling with assurance is already doing that and coming up empty handed. Washer is oppressive in this way. It’s that old Puritan introspection.
As far as Voddie I’m not sure he is quite in the same camp. He tends to avoid the spotlight and all this networking back stroking stuff, but I’m sure he has his own weaknesses. I have corresponded at length with a friend who attends his church and he has never told me because I’m a woman I should shut up or not blog or have a better attitude or whatever. He’s always been very gracious to me.
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“They say serious sin, compared to his letter stating not knowing her in the biblical sense. Way more to this story.”
Maybe it’s time to dust off the old Bill Clinton parsing technique… “I did not have sexual relations with that woman…”
?? Well, I hope not. But who knows anymore these days. The visible church is so messed up.
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“Retha, I don’t think anything happened with his daughters who are minors.” Until today my brain wouldn’t have been capable of going there either. But because we’re talking Doug Phillips we probably don’t want to rule anything out. For example, what are the implications behind this Facebook comment?
Scandalous and the possibility of jail? That narrows the list of offenses considerably. One thing is for certain: Vision Forum Ministries isn’t being shut down merely over what most everyone was assuming about Doug Phillips — that he had a sexual affair with one consenting legal aged woman.
One or more of the following criteria was not met in the single affair Doug Phillips confessed to:
1) The woman was of legal age when the affair commenced
2) The woman consented freely (she wasn’t forced/raped)
3) The woman did not get pregnant by Doug Phillips
4) The woman wasn’t paid off by Doug Phillips to buy her silence
5) The affair did not involve perverse/deviant/fetish sexual acts
6) The confession is comprehensive and doesn’t fail to mention a plethora of other affairs
7) The woman was in fact a woman and not a boy
8) The woman was in fact a woman and not a farm animal
And of course there are numerous other possibilities too, but these are the most likely ones. Failing any of the above criteria would be reasonable cause for the board of directors to step in and compel Doug Phillips to tender his resignation (my belief is that he was compelled and that he wouldn’t have stepped down on his own).
Some are speculating Doug Phillips’ resignation was probably over financial misappropriations/fraud. I think there’s more than ample evidence of Doug Phillips’ fraudulent character and aptitude for bilking supporters and patrons to assume that he’s also defrauded his own ministry for his personal gain. That too could have factored into why he was forced to resign. Fraud is likely a part of this, but only a part, and the real scandal is much bigger than that.
Corporate scandals of all types (sexual, financial fraud, etc.) are commonplace, including even in Christian ministries, and Presidents are forced to resign because of them all too often. But when have we heard that an entire ministry, and a financially viable and lucrative one, was folded immediately after the resignation of its president? The real story is probably much, much bigger, and much more scandalous. It’s so big that there is no possible way for anyone to be able to minimize the fallout. Doug Phillips’ name is so interwoven with “Vision Forum” that the two are one and a blight on the name “Doug Phillips” is the death of Vision Forum.
Vision Forum Ministries is no more, or at least it will be no more when the board of directors winds it all down (perhaps even plundering the assets for themselves), and that could take months. But Vision Forum Inc is alive and… um, probably not so well. Word is out and Christmas orders will be meager this year. Doug Phillips will no longer be welcomed at conferences of any type. Too much of the details of the scandal are yet unknown, and until the full extent of Doug’s sins (and likely crimes) are known no one in their right mind will want to take a risk on having his tainted name associated with them.
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Geoff, that Facebook comment simply makes me ill. I hope this woman has the courage and support to speak up. In these patriarch communities they usually stop at nothing to protect the institution and keep the victims silent. God help her.
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Why would there be a rush to liquidate assets?
Protecting the “ass”ets?
Is it possible the woman scorned may be trying to cash in?
Some kind of blackmail?
I am wondering why the sin is not stated.
And why it is not stated as adultery.
Emotional relationships outside of marriage has been defined by Jesus as adultery.
Why is it stated as “serious sin” and not adultery?
IS this biblical?
BD-
Is that tax free salary?
Is a Pastors salary and any income tax free?
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Geoff,
Welcome and thanks for sharing your thoughts. I, too, happened to run across that quote from Jessica Goforth Francis and it sounds like similar information I’ve been getting as well. I’m sure more will be coming out. What a very sad situation. However, I’m so thankful that the spotlight is now on Patriarchy. It’s time to take down this ridiculous oppressive system.
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Geoff, two arguments against your pregnancy idea, among your ideas:
a) It would be very disingeneous to claim “I did not know her in a Biblical sense” if a little person can be tested for DNA evidence.
b) In itself, it would not make true Jessica’s claim of a possible jail sentence.
And one for:
There was 9 months between stepping down at his church and stepping down from VF Ministries.
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“Thanks Discomfort and Gary, I read Paul’s post. I thought it was an excellent article against Calvinism as practiced by Calvin, but a tad scanty in details regarding why a Washer is condemned along with him. Is it just because Washer is a Calvinist that he’s lumped in with these guys? Isn’t that too hasty? Or are there other reasons?”
Seth, I mentioned Washer. I followed his tajectory from about 06-11. I actually agreed with quite a bit of his earlier stuff because he nailed the seeker movement. But I did see him slide big time into patriarchy and become legalistic in regards to FIC, women, polity, etc. Some of it was down right ridiculous. Funny, his trajectory seems to have taken a huge turn when he started having children. I saw some sad things coming out of Noblitt’s church where he went. Promoting Driscoll, teaching that Matthew 18 included taking it to the elders first and so on. Washers later associations with Philliips and Brown sealed it for me. Some of you are not aware that Brown runs a cult. If I could I would free young women from his cult.
BTW: Washers wife does this really bizarro world teaching on Esther adn how wives are to do beauty treatments to prepare themselves for their husbands…it gets deeper…check it out. But wait. This was required of Esther by a PAGAN ruler who had a harem. But they “Christianize” these things and teach them as biblical truths. They are false teachers. And creepy.
Washer got involved with the wrong people. He also teaches imputed guilt which I know is pretty common but also believe it is heresy and leads us down these roads of patriarchy and sin as a lifestyle for believers.
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“I have to agree that believing in human sinfulness does not have to lead to patriarchial or otherwise authoritarian beliefs. We believe the patriarchs and others in authority are sinful too, and we have to watch them as much as they watch us.”
Retha and Seth,
We are actually talking about two different things. The language is deceptive so we have to discuss definitions when one talks about original sin or our sinfulness.
There are many who teach what Augustine introducted into Christianity as original sin whereby we are born guilty of Adam’s sin. Not that we bear the consequences of Adam’s sin but are GUILTY of his specific sin. This is where A Mom calls it the “vipers in diapers” doctrine. The concept of infant baptism comes from this doctrine to save “guilty” infants who might die as infants.
Some of us believe that we are born “inclined” toward sin but are only guilty of the sins we commit and KNOW we commit. (KNowledge of good and evil).
The concept of already being guilty plays into so much of the abuse (many Non Calvinists also believe in imputed guilt) because it teaches we are worms who cannot do anyting but sin but there are special people God has appointed to lead us. It infantilizes adult believers. Even the cross is not enough to change hearts as we remain wicked even though saved. It is a great doctrine to excuse sinning and normalizing it.
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“Washers wife does this really bizarro world teaching on Esther [and] how wives are to do beauty treatments to prepare themselves for their husbands . . .”
So the Bible describes how one person does something, and that makes it mandatory? Where does it all end? Why not teach from the Biblical example that God’s perfect plan for Christian the Christian family is polygamy, excepting only where one’s responsibilities as an overseer or deacon are too important for the time and energy involved in maintaining multiple wives. And, even for overseers and deacons, shouldn’t they keep concubines?
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I have worked with churches in the situation where a pastor did not keep his pants on and should have. In general, when you find a sexual impropriety, you will also find other abuses of the position, including financial or organizational (abuse of authorization). The latter two are clearly grounds for a forced resignation in any organization, whereas the former would generally only be grounds in a religious organization. Generally, these are the result of narcissism and a sense of entitlement (It’s MY organization, MY employee, MY follower, MY money, b/c I am the guru and earned the privilege!)
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Lydia – – Do you have a link where I can find more info on Washer’s wife’s beauty treatment? . . . . . . . like I really need more things to look up. lol
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“Washers wife does this really bizarro world teaching on Esther adn how wives are to do beauty treatments to prepare themselves for their husbands…it gets deeper…check it out. But wait. This was required of Esther by a PAGAN ruler who had a harem. But they “Christianize” these things and teach them as biblical truths. They are false teachers. And creepy.”
I’ve heard of a female preacher holding an Esther conference where she talked of how Esther prepared herself for the king, and how we should prepare for our King, God…
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“I’ve heard of a female preacher holding an Esther conference where she talked of how Esther prepared herself for the king, and how we should prepare for our King, God…”
That reminds me of what I read the other night: “My father was very earnest in his belief that many books of Bible stories are greatly marred by an attempt to make them teach doctrines which are not stated or even hinted at in the Scripture stories themselves.” – Charles C. Hurlbut
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http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/e-books
Click on “becoming Esther”, under eArticles.
Excerpt: “Remember in your singleness that you are not the only one single, but your future husband is passing through the same stage as you.”
Marriage worship & idolization, IMO. The solution to evil in the world is to ratchet-up pressure & preoccupation to marry? How does this “Biblical” ideal apply to Jesus, Paul, & many other Godly single individuals? This idolization ratchets-up the divorce rate as well, IMO.
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The southern evangelical misapplication of literal interpretation has very old roots:
http://www.civilwarbaptists.com/thisdayinhistory/1863-november-12/
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‘Excerpt: “Remember in your singleness that you are not the only one single, but your future husband is passing through the same stage as you.”’
Wow, what if he is currently married and later you meet him when he’s a widower? Lol!
Can anyone imagine a movement that takes the opposite stance of VF? Basing it on 1 Cor. 7:8? Encouraging people to remain single as a godly way to live? Selling all sorts of “single” merchandise? Wouldn’t that be *more* “biblical” than the emphasis on marriage and families? 😉
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I liked Washer’s earnestness. He seems to desire right actions. His life was in peril as a missionary, he rejects prosperity gospel. He rejects pray a prayer, live like the devil, go to heaven. I found this admirable, compared to popular preachers in comfy lifestyle. I am all for doing right & right actions.
However, his Patriarchal view as solution to evil in the world is not helpful. It’s harmful. And there seems to be marriage idolization. Not good.
He also believes people are sinful (monsters) from birth. “Vipers in diapers” came from Paul Dohse. 🙂 I pocketed it – it’s a clear way to understand Augustine/Calvin’s theology. I don’t agree babies are broken & sinful in the womb & will go to hell unless their parents are Christian (& infant baptize them). That’s works thru parent’s salvation. People like Mohler believe babies are sinful in the womb but if they die as children, they get a pass somehow, other than salvation through Christ. Go figure.
http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2013/08/14/al-mohlers-struggle-with-babyology/
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I hope these comments posted by Dee prove to have no merit. If they are true it will be even far more horrible than I thought:
dee on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 08:13 AM said:
dee on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 08:19 AM said:
dee on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 08:21 AM said:
I’m hoping there will be a way of exposing the full extent of Doug Phillips’ sins/crimes without having to out his female victim too. If her identity does come out I’m confident that most everyone (outside of Doug’s World) will show her love and support.
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Geoff: Because of the sensitivity of this issue, I have not shared what information has been passed along to me, but if you read between the lines of Dee’s comments, I have had the same reports sent to me as well.
When you get the same account repeated a number of times, from a number of sources, with no varying from the story, it seems to indicate that the story is no longer just a story, but something credible.
I’ve never taken a journalism class in my life and this blogging thing kind of landed in my lap, but common sense tells me to be prudent and have integrity when reporting on stories like this. I will report when I have credible information.
This is really big and when you think that the stay-at-home daughter movement has been building credibility among the Homeschool Movement as more and more adult daughters start blogging and (essentially trying to sell their fate), it is time to blow this baby out of the water.
Let me be clear: I fear for daughters growing up in Patriarchy Movement. Some are imprisoned – spiritually, psychologically, physically, and perhaps some sexually. The very sad thing is because of this oppressive environment, they may not even realize how wrong this is. It is their norm.
Oh my word, I am so ANGRY about this system.
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Any sin can easily become a habit. And a habit is hard to break. Even after getting caught, followed by 9 months of “trying” grace-period? May it be a lesson to us.
Conversely, doing right can become a habit. And a right habit is hard to break.
When preachers talk about sin & how hard it is to break, they’re talking about a habit. They’re not talking about the initial, easy to turn away at first sin.
When we make doing right so hard, so unattainable, all we can do is wrong, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. When we call ourselves worms, wretched, broken, depraved it is no surprise when behavior follows this teaching.
Let’s teach to our children the virtue of doing right & encourage them that they have full ability to do right. They can do good. So can we as adults. This is not a Biblical issue. This is what we expect of ALL our neighbors, regardless of their religion (or no religion). Christianity is being eaten from within with depravity, inability teaching.
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Shannon H., That is funny!
Wait, you are using your God-given brain though. Better to run that by your pastor/husband, Tony Miano first. They hold authority over you.
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@Retha:
Including sexually servicing our King?
Sex with the god (usually through an ordained clergy representative) was a standard part of all those Semitic fertility cults. I thought Torah was given to get the Jews away from that Semitic Tribal Normal.
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@Gary W:
Give ’em time.
After all, Joseph Smith invoked Biblical Patriarchs as the model for Plural Marriage.
And it’s not “concubines” for God’s Anointed Commanders, it’s “Handmaids”.
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@Hannah:
Remember my previous letter regarding Semantics, My Dear Wormwood.
About redefining words into their Diabolical Meanings.
— Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle, Screwtape
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@A Mom:
“GOD HATH WILLED IT!”
Calvin: Just like Ayatollah Khomeini, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!
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@jv:
It’s also the exact length of time for another process involving female sexual parts…
@Retha:
Craster’s Keep, near The Wall in northern Westeros, Game of Thrones…
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“Let me be clear: I fear for daughters growing up in Patriarchy Movement. Some are imprisoned – spiritually, psychologically, physically, and perhaps some sexually. The very sad thing is because of this oppressive environment, they may not even realize how wrong this is. It is their norm.”
In all reality, they may be like little children in adult bodies. Intentionally kept at the maturity level of little girls. They are not allowed to think for themselves, to have their own opinions, to even question. They are taught to trust fully & naively. This is not their fault, it’s how they are raised. They need to be deprogrammed. They need love, truth & real help.
For parents to want this for their growing adults is absolutely sick. This is not a solution to evil in the world. It attracts evil, with no ability to fend it off. It is dangerous. Better to raise girls competent, thinking & able to hit one out of the ballpark (physically & mentally).
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@ terriergal
You said: Washer is portrayed as negative in my book because he causes people to look inside themselves for some experience or for growth in holiness for assurance of salvation. Anyone struggling with assurance is already doing that and coming up empty handed. Washer is oppressive in this way. It’s that old Puritan introspection.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for putting your finger on why Paul Washer’s ‘sermons’ rub me the wrong way!
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@ Hannah:
“BD-
Is that tax free salary?
Is a Pastors salary and any income tax free?”
I don’t know, I’m Canadian.:^)
Guidestone has a tax guide for ministers.
https://www.guidestone.org/MinistryTools/~/media/B8C50679734B4C2D84CDEAD2A4691B9E.ashx
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@ Julie Anne:
I read Dee’s comments this afternoon. I had hoped things wouldn’t develop in this direction. I knew they could but I really hoped it wouldn’t get that bad.
I expressed to my mom when news of the affair first broke, how easy it could be for a “patriarch” (esp. one in authority like Doug) to take advantage of an SAHD. I’ve heard stories about girls who escaped from FIC churches, who were in their early 20s and had never even had a OBGYN exam (one of these them was apparently found to have an undetected uterine tumor when they took her in). I’ve also been exposed to fundy health curricula and they took pains to completely avoid explaining the reproductive system; they even removed the urinary system, includ. kidneys, from the human anatomy chart because at the end of the male urinary system is something they, well, can’t show. (The kidneys, bladder, etc. were instead buried in the section on UTIs and the urethra trailed off into empty space.) The only remotely reproductive things they talked about were fetal development and STDs, and of course they didn’t mention how the baby got there and you could only catch an STD by disobeying God.
Given that information, if this is how these girls have been “educated,” then they may know nothing or next to nothing about their own bodies, let alone their sexuality, let alone how to tell when someone is hitting on you, harrassing you, molesting you, etc. Combine this with heavy-handed teachings about purity and male authority (and remember, it’s ALL men in patriarchy, not just her dad and her pastor), add a heaping tablespoon of victim-blaming, and finish the whole thing off with the idea that men mediate between their wives and children and Jesus, and what you get is a recipe for disaster.
In other words, if Doug was having a relationship with one of these girls, it’s certainly not impossible that he could have literally threatened her with hellfire if she threatened to spill the beans, him being a male mediator / priest / covering / whatever. Get on the wrong side of your mediator, and he can cut you off from Jesus and TAKE AWAY ANY CHANCE YOU HAVE OF SALVATION.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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@Hannah:
Here is the Vision Forum 990 for 2011.
Click to access 2011-742984736-08cd5f98-9.pdf
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Also, if this does turn out to have been a minor or a girl close to the age of consent cutoff (which is 17 in TX), then there’s all sorts of naivete about that as well in Christian homeschooling communities. Do you know how many Christians I’ve heard excuse an underage girl dating a boy 2-4 years her senior on the grounds that “nothing will happen, they’re Christians” or – even worse and much more potentially pertinent to this situation – “it’s okay, she’s mature for her age” / “some people mature faster than others”? Yeah, well, sorry, folks. Maturity be damned, the law don’t care. It’s still a crime if anything happens. C-R-I-M-E. Those annoying things that land you in court, or on the sex offender registry.
Can you tell this is one of my pet issues? Because my ex-pastor married his 17yo daughter off to a 38yo divorcee with a 12yo from his first marriage, and my 19yo homeschool friend decided it would be a good idea to date a 15yo girl and couldn’t figure out why I disapproved. *headdesk repeatedly*
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Julie Anne,
You seemed to appreciate the last time I cross-post one of my comments that I first posted at Doug Wilson’s blog. I do so again for the same reason — to ensure that if it gets deleted from there I at least have some confidence that you will not do so yourself. Thanks for your consideration.
_____________________________
Shannon, I’ll assume that you include me in “Some of these comments are ridiculous.” I can see that you’re having trouble connecting the dots. Let me help you with that in a way that, hopefully, will serve to encourage you not to be so dismissive of the seriousness of these matters.
Scott Brown, the man from whose sermon I quoted above, the sermon that was crafted especially for, and targeted at, Doug Phillips, is one of Doug Phillips’ closest friends and confidants and has been for a number of years. Scott Brown is also one of the three Board members of Vision Forum Ministries. He’s an insider, a man who knows far more the extent of Doug Phillips’ sins (and likely crimes) than do you, or Doug Wilson. He has good cause to vote, along with the other Board Members, to dissolve Vision Forum Ministries.
The Board of Vision Forum Ministries would not have taken such an extreme measure had Phillips only been guilty of the sin of cheating on his wife. Boards of lucrative and financially viable ministries don’t ever dissolve over relatively minor scandals like this one. If that were all that had been all that had been going on the board would be more than competent to handle the damage control and move forward with someone else at the helm, at least until such time as Phillips went through the necessary steps of restoration. It’s been done successfully before. The real scandals (and likely crimes) of Douglas W. Phillips are much more damning than an “inappropriately affectionate” relationship. The extreme measure of dissolving Vision Forum Ministries is commensurate with the egregious sins of Doug Phillips that made it necessary.
Scott Brown also has good cause to direct an entire sermon at Doug Phillips and to speak of him as an “apostate.” Because of Scott Brown’s knowledge, and the knowledge of the other VFM board members, all of whom were close personal friends of Doug Phillips for some years, they acted swiftly to put an end to the most important venue through which Doug Phillips perpetrates his apostasy. Scott Brown isn’t charging Phillips with apostasy as it concerns moral beliefs and teachings. He and Phillips are on the same exact doctrinal page — home schooling, patriarchy, family integrated church, stay at home daughters, quiver full, etc. Just read his statement at http://www.visionforumministries.org/home/about/the_board_of_vision_forum_mini.aspx When Scott Brown speaks of Doug Phillips’ apostasy he’s addressing Phillips’ sinful behavior which is diametrically opposed to the messages that Phillips preaches, one of which would be “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” But that’s only one of the ways in which Doug Phillips has become, over the period of at least ten years, apostate. There is much more long term sin in Phillips’ life than just the sin of years of adultery, and those are sins that Phillips has never repented of and likely never will.
Scott Brown is now aware of some of those apostasies and over coming days and weeks will become aware of even more. We’re talking heinous sin, even criminal acts, far worse than just cheating on his wife. As Brown points out in his sermon these sins aren’t one time events of having “fallen into sin” (your mention, Shannon, of David would be an example of “falling into sin” — Solomon would not be such an example, but it would be a good example of what Brown calls “sliding into sin”). Brown is addressing sins that Phillips “slid” into and remained in willfully and unrepentantly over years and years. He slid down the slippery slope because he was drawn in by his own pride and lust — he was enticed by sin (as we all can be), but rather than hating it he toyed with it over and over, he drew closer and closer, and once he outright acted on it he justified it rather than repent of it.
Doug Phillips still hasn’t repented because repentance must be robust and thoroughgoing, as does the confessing that goes along with it. Doug Phillips’ so-called “confession” is the confession of the crafty attorney that he is. He conceals far more than he discloses. The “smell of apostasy” indeed. Most commenters here, including Doug Wilson, seem more than eager to trust in the sincerity of the so-called confession and repentance of an apostate. But that trust will evaporate in time as more and more of Doug Phillips’ sins and crimes become widely known.
I agree with Doug Wilson that it’s wrong to be gleeful over the downfall of a religious leader, though I disagree that the gleeful are by their actions necessarily “enemies of God”. I tend to agree far more with Scott Brown that Doug Phillips is apostate, and that he needs to come to repentance. I don’t rejoice that he had to step down nine months ago as the teaching elder of the church he founded, that he’s had to resign from his ministry, and that that ministry is being dissolved. It’s all very tragic, no doubt even more so for those who had put so much of their trust in the man. I pray for Doug Phillips’ repentance because, unlike so many others here, I don’t assume an apostate is repentant merely because he says he is. I’m still waiting to see some evidence consistent with repentance. “Bear fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matt 3:8). Such fruit goes far beyond a lawyerly “confession”.
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Let me be clear: I fear for daughters growing up in Patriarchy Movement. Some are imprisoned – spiritually, psychologically, physically, and perhaps some sexually. The very sad thing is because of this oppressive environment, they may not even realize how wrong this is. It is their norm.
Oh my word, I am so ANGRY about this system.
Julie Anne:
I am seeing this spread like wildfire and think that it won’t be long before anyone with any connection to this family/lifestyle will know what happened. Am I right? Do you think that Doug will be prosecuted by the law?
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