Guest Post: A Call for Reasoned Discernment Before Judgment Is Made Upon Others

880 thoughts on “Guest Post: A Call for Reasoned Discernment Before Judgment Is Made Upon Others”

1. I know you are speaking of pastors having authority (power, control). That is why I agree and say that even though in practice many pastors act that way, that is not how they SHOULD act. With regards to the comment about asking Julie Anne and her submitting to elders: in regular practice, people use that to mean to say that the elder has authority (power, control) over the person. That is not how it SHOULD be. I know that what I am talking about is not how people practice it in real life, I am trying to convey how it SHOULD be.

   Also, I am not saying that authority is the teaching/learning process. What I am saying is that when you voluntarily decide to learn from an other person, by defintion, you are authorizing that person to ACT as your teacher, which necessitates that you will ACT as the student, recognizing that the teacher has something worth learning. Even in very simple matters, such as when a friend is teaching you some cool new trick, for that brief amount of time, you have, in your mind and without directly admitting to it, should you agree by virtue of listening and trying out what they say, have essentially given that person permission to trasfer that knowledge over to you in that one instance. This authorization is not required for knowledge transfer though. For example, a friend could tell you that he knows the answers for tomorrows test. You could tell him that you don’t want to hear the answers. He tells you the answers anyway. That knowledge has been transferred. You did not authorize the person to give you the answers though. In a somewhat overly simplified way, giving authority to a person, in one defintion, is to give them the right to do something, or act in a certain way.

   A pastor, having been gifted by the Holy Spirit to pastor, has been authorized by the Holy Spirit to act as a pastor. A local church body, would affirm this authorization, granting the pastor the right to act as their pastor. They are giving him the authority, or permission, to act as their pastor. It is the responsibility of the pastor to care for the church in a loving, respectful, and biblically truthful way. Should he abuse the right he is given, he SHOULD be removed, his authorization to act as pastor SHOULD be removed. In reality, I agree, this is not how it usually happens. It is not usually easy to remove an abusive pastor. But it SHOULD be. Part of helping to make this easier to help others to see that pastors do not have power or control over how others live their lives. This blog is attempting to do that, by informing people how it SHOULD be verses how it IS.

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2. ALL….

   What a great conversation – BUT – much to respectiful.. 😉
   And keep defining that word “Authority.” And who has it.

   When I hear the word – Authority – AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!
   All I hear – Is what I heard in “The Corrupt Religious System” for years….
   the 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible Religious Corporations…

   Obey – Obey – Obey – ME – Your “God Ordained Authority”

   BUT – They Lied – the Authorities Lied – And I believed them…

   But – then I read the Bible…
   And Jesus is my “ONE” Authority – NOT a man…
   Ac 5:29 …We ought to obey God rather than men.
   And Jesus is my “ONE” Teacher – NOT a man…
   And Jesus is my “ONE” Leader – NOT a man…
   And Jesus is my “ONE” Shepherd – NOT a man…

   And – This Battle over “Authority” – Is important…
   It matters – Even when “Authority” always wins…

   John Mellencamp – “Authority Song”

   Oh they like to get you in a compromising position
   they like to get you there and smile in your face
   well they think they’re so cute when they got you in that condition
   well I think it’s a total disgrace
   and I said:
   I fight authority authority always wins
   well I fight authority authority always wins
   well I’ve been doin it since I was a young kid and I come out grinnin
   well I fight authority authority always wins
   so I call up my preacher
   I say, ‘give me the strength for Round 5’
   he said, ‘you don’t need no strength you need to grow up son’
   I said, ‘growin up leads to growin old and then to dyin’
   ‘OO and dyin to me don’t sound like all that much fun’
   so I said:
   I fight authority authority always wins
   well I fight authority authority always wins
   well I’ve been doin it since I was a young kid and I come out grinnin
   well I fight authority authority always wins
   I said oh no no no
   I said oh no no no
   I said oh no no no no
   I fight authority authority always wins
   I fight authority authority always wins
   I’ve been doin it since I was a young kid and I come out grinnin
   well I fight authority authority always wins
   well I fight authority authority always wins
   well I fight authority authority always wins
   I’ve been doin it since I was a young kid I come out grinnin
   well I fight authority authority always wins
   (repeat until end of song)(sorry the song cuts off early!)

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3. John Mellencamp – “Authority Song”

   These words are easier to read… 😉

   Lyrics:
   They like to get you in a compromising position
   They like to get you there and smile in your face
   They think, they’re so cute when they got you in that condition
   Well I think, it’s a total disgrace

   Chorus:
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I been doing it, since I was a young kid
   Ive come out grinnin
   I fight authority, authority always wins

   So I call up my preacher
   I say: gimme strength for round 5
   He said: you don’t need no strength, you need to grow up, son
   I said: growing up leads to growing old and then to dying,
   And dying to me dont sound like all that much fun

   Chorus:
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I been doing it, since I was a young kid
   Ive come out grinnin
   I fight authority, authority always wins

   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I been doing it, since I was a young kid
   Ive come out grinnin
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   Oh no
   Oh no
   I fight authority, authority always wins

   Chorus:
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I been doing it, since I was a young kid
   I’ve come out grinnin’
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I fight authority, authority always wins
   I been doing it, since I was a young kid
   I’ve come out grinnin’
   I fight authority, authority always wins

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4. JA,

   Obey
   Strong’s Concordance Greek Reference #3980
   peitharcheo
   To be persuaded by a ruler, ie. (gen.) to submit to authority: by anal. to conform to advice.
   Other English words used for peitharchea: hearken

   There is only 3 Verses used in this use of 3980:

   Acts 5:29 – Obey God

   Acts 5:32 Obey God

   Titus 3:1 – Obey magistrates

   ********************

   Let’s look at 3982 again:
   peitho
   to convince (by argument, true or false); by anal. to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflex. or pass. to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty).
   Other English words used: agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) confient, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

   There are 3 Verses used for 3982

   Second usage in Romans 2:8
   Hebrews 13:17
   James 3:3

   **********************

   There are other Greek words used for authority, besides these 2, too.

   5219 (Unclean spirits, wind and sea obey)
   5255,1036 (Obey the word, obey the gospel)
   544 (does not obey the truth)
   5218 (servants of sin obey sin, servants of righteousness obey righteousness)

   5219
   A subordinate

   5255
   Submissive

   5218
   Compliance

   544
   Disobedient, not complient

   I could list the verses of those, but they have nothing to do with the context of 3980/3982

   Ed

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5. JoeJoe, I think most of us understand how it SHOULD be. Nevertheless, I won’t concede the word authority because there is tyrant lurking in too many who get a stage and then claim God appointed them as an authority. I have seen too much collateral damage from it. They are much safer spiritually, thinking of themselves as servants along with the rest of us.

   “Just wanted to redirect attention onto what is of FIRST importance, the good news that Christ has done what we sinners could never do for ourselves.”

   Brian, Thanks. Much better focus than who is obeying elders or not.

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6. A Amos Love,

   I always loved that song. I was in the US Navy when that came out.

   Another was Twisted Sister’s, “We’re Not Gonna Take It”. Saw them in concert in Tokyo in 1985.

   Ed

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7. JoeJoe

   You write…
   “A pastor, having been gifted by the Holy Spirit to pastor,
   has been authorized by the Holy Spirit to act as a pastor.”

   Where is that in the Bible? 😉

   In the Bible, can you name one of His Disciples,
   Who was called pastor? – who had the “Title” pastor?
   “gifted by the Holy Spirit to pastor.”

   Jesus is the only “ONE” I can find , in the Bible, with the “Title” shepherd.

   Jer 50:6
   “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
   **their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

   1 Pet 2:25
   For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
   BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

   I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

   {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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8. JoeJoe,

   You had said:
   “Also, I am not saying that authority is the teaching/learning process. What I am saying is that when you voluntarily decide to learn from an other person, by defintion, you are authorizing that person to ACT as your teacher”

   This is exactly where we disagree.

   I am not authorizing him to teach. His job is to persuade me to believe and have faith in Christ. That is the authority God gives, to persuade, to woo me.

   Think of a relationship, where you are trying to woo a girl. Does she authorize you to woo her? Or are you trying to persuade her to go out with you?

   That is the disagreement we have.

   Ed

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9. JoeJoe

   I asked you similar questions @ AUGUST 14, 2013 @ 9:07 AM…

   And sent you two links to blogs of EX-pastors who also say…

   “**There aren’t any “church pastors” in the New Testament,**
   and I could never get past that.”

   Have you looked at them?

   I am meeting more, and more, pastors who are leaving the System…

   And they know – Todays “Title/Position” – pastor/leader/reverend…

   Is NOT in the Bible.

   And they are the ones who tell you – they are the “Authority” – NOT…

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10. OK. I think we may be at a close enough understanding to probably end this particular branch of the discussion. I doubt anything more would be fruitful. As I see it, some people may have a problem with the use of the word authority in pretty much any context of the church and pastors and it is likely due to too many “pastors” lording their positioin over others, thinking that they have authority (power/control) over their church members. That has tended to make the word “authority” in this context. It seems y’all understand that at least in this conversation I am not saying pastors should have any kind of power over anybody else. And it seems we agree that a pastor should be a servant to his local church body.

    And Ed, apology accepted.

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11. JoeJoe

    That last line should read…

    And Todays – pastor/leader/reverend…
    are the ones who tell you – they are the “Authority” – NOT…

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12. Amos,

    I know we have discussed the idea of whether or not there are pastors. We do not, and I doubt we ever will agree on this. The Bible does say that some have been given to be pastors to help equip others for works of service. While they may or may not not have called themselves pastors in NT days, functionally they are. Even if there is no recording of a person saying that they were a pastor in the NT, does not mean that there were none. You would be making an argumentum e silentio, or an argument from silence. I see no reason to assume that there should not be pastors. The church is still in existence today, with people needing to be taught and equipped to serve God, which is the function a pastor serves. Could the Holy Spirit equip an individual himself? Absolutely. But throughout history, God has shown that he very often works through people. In larger groups, I wouldn’t be surprised if multiple people show to be gifted in some sort of pastoralship. In a local church body, there should hopefully be ways for them to use that gift. In a smaller group, you may only have one person gifted to be pastoral.

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13. JoeJoe

    The pages of history – concerning Christian-dumb – Are covered in blood…

    The Blood of the Saints – who died at the hands of those who…
    Had “Titles” – NOT found in the Bible…
    “Titles” – That come with – Power – Profit – Prestige.
    And – Taught they were the “Authority” to be “Obeyed”
    They Taught they were the “Authority” to understand “the Word of God.”
    After all – they had the “Title” and that meant they had “Authority.”

    And they would Kill, burn to death, chop off heads, those who did NOT agree.
    All in the name of God of course…

    Yesterday and Today – When that “Authority” is challenged…
    Things get ugly – FAST.

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14. B4b,

    Fyi, I will not be endorsing anything of Tony Miano here. I find his style of evangelism to be anti-evangelism. He probably creates more enemies for Christ with his in-your-face rude behavior.

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15. JoeJoe,

    Re: Your comment of 9:16 AM. If you say there were pastors in the early church, and if you are asserting that these pastors were like the people we now refer to as pastors, the burden is on you to demonstrate this fact. You simply cannot take a position and expect everybody to accept it as truth unless and until they demonstrate otherwise. The proponent of a position has the burden of proof. In making the attempt to shift the burden proof and persuasion to those who would contest your assertion, you are actually the one attempting to argue from silence!

    Were there people who were gifted to shepherd/pastor in the early church? Yes, of course there were. Eph 4:11. Were there people who called themselves pastors who attempted to exercise the kind of self promoting, self serving, lord-it-over, coercive, kind of authority we all seem to agree is inappropriate? I actually think there were some such. Otherwise, why would we have the verses I have already quoted in part: “These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, SHEPHERDS feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever. (Jude 1:12-13, ESV, emphasis added)

    I personally believe we still have people who are supernaturally gifted to minister as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. However, the words apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher are not titles or offices. They are simply job descriptions, along the lines of mechanic, truck driver, flight attendant, janitor, farmer, accountant, etc. Unless one is willing to change the meaning in which the word “authority” is being used in the current context, there simply is no authority attached to any of these words. Responsibilities, duties and even privileges, yes. The self promoting, self serving, lord-it-over, coercive, kind of authority claimed by all too many “pastors” of today’s institutional “churches”? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

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16. “**There aren’t any “church pastors” in the New Testament,**
    and I could never get past that.”

    This is so true. We have institutionalized a spiritual function and it is hard to see past that it is so ingrained into our thinking. The “church” does not have a “pastor”. I know, it is unthinkable we could be so wrong but tradition is often wrong.

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17. Lydia

    Always enjoy your well presnted comments…
    And your willingness to continue this battle – NOT let up…

    Me thinks we have met before – different place – different name – Maybe…

    You write…
    “I know,
    it is unthinkable we could be so wrong **but tradition** is often wrong.”

    Seems Jesus warned us about these “Tradtions.”

    Mark 7:13
    KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
    ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
    NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
    NLT – And so you “cancel” the word of God
    ………. in order to hand down your own tradition.

    Hard to believe “Traditions of men” can “Cancel” – “the Word of God.”

    It has been a plesaure going into the battle with you… 😉

    Fighting the good fight of faith.

    F. A. I. T. H.

    F.orsaking A.LL I. T.rust H.im

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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18. Lydia, and A Amos Love,

    OK, you two have me extremely confused. The word pastor is in the New Test scriptures. We, the people, are the “called out ones” (the church). There are church pastors, so I am not getting what you are saying.

    Gary,
    I think what is meant by office, is simply responsibilty. We ALL have an office (although I wish my office had a better view than that of those who have “authority” over me…hahaha) of authority. Also, we all have the authority just by using “in the name of Jesus”.

    Romans 12

    4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office (4234 Act or FUNCTION):

    5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

    6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

    7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

    8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth (4291 TO PRESIDE (manage)), with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

    Ed

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19. Hey ALL….

    Was wondering what you guys thought…

    Leaving those “Traditions” behind is quite FREEing… to hear from Jesus…
    And Jesus is the best teacher – Yes?

    One day I was just writing a letter to a friend – A pastor friend…
    Yes, we disagree on a few things… 😉

    When, the famous, 2nd Chronicles 2:17, came to mind…
    And in a flash – I saw it – In a NEW light… Revelation?

    Could Pastors be seeking their own Glory?
    By taking, “His Name” for themselves?
    And by being called by “His Name?”

    2 Chron 7:14 KJV
    If my people, **which are called by my *name,**
    shall humble themselves, and pray,
    and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways;
    then will I hear from heaven,
    and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

    *Name – In Strongs – #8034 = shem –
    1 – a definite and *conspicuous position. (*standing out, clearly visible)
    2 – an *appellation… (a name or “Title”)
    3 – by implication honor, authority, character.

    Isn’t God asking those **which are called by my *name,**
    (called by my – *name – “Title” – honor, authority, – clearly visible.)
    to humble themselves? Turn from their wicked ways?

    Who are those believers “called” by “God’s *Name” today? God’s “Title?”

    What about – Shepherds – Teachers – Leaders – Reverends – ?
    Aren’t these **names** that God is called?

    1 – God/Jesus is called – Shepherd
    The Lord is my **shepherd.** Psalm 23:1.
    …returned unto the **Shepherd** and Bishop of your souls. 1Pet 2:25.

    2 – God/Jesus calls Himself – Teacher
    … for One is your Teacher, the Christ…Mat 23:8 NKJV.
    If I then, your Lord and Teacher… John 13:14 NKJV.

    3 – God/Jesus is called – Leader
    And do not be called leaders; for One is your **Leader,** that is, Christ.
    Mat 23:10 NASB.
    God exalted him at his right hand as **Leader** and Savior…
    Acts 5:31 ESV

    4 – God/Jesus is called – Reverend
    …holy and **reverend** is his name. Psalm 111:9 KJV

    Hmmm? What about – Shepherds – Teachers – Leaders – Reverends – ?
    Aren’t these **names** that God is called?

    Are they taking “God’s Name” in vain? Oy Vey!!! 😦

    Ex 20:7
    Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
    for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

    Jesus… a name which is above every name…

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20. Ed

    You write…
    “There are church pastors, so I am not getting what you are saying.”

    Name one… In the Bible…

    Name one… Today…

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21. Remember that elder/pastor/shepherd are synonymous in Scripture. Don’t get hung up in the absence of a particular word in a particular context, when one of the other ones that means the same thing may be present. Off the top of my head, Timothy was a pastor/elder/shepherd, as were the elders at Jerusalem, along with all the elders Paul and Barnabas appointed “in all the churches”, just to name a few. AS I mentioned before, both Peter and John also claimed to hold this position in the church. And I would include all the other apostles as well.

    Now, if you rail against this as being wrong because the word for ‘pastor’ isn’t found in every one of these instances, you will only be showing yourself ignorant of the truth that the terms I have mentioned are synonymous for the same position in the church.

    Let the wailing begin…

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22. I’ll be happy to provide Scripture references if you like for these examples.

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23. Oh yeah, the word ‘overseer’ also is synonymous with pastor.

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24. How may have small, home church sized groups looked like and operated in the early days of the church? I haven’t studied this, but thinking about it, would you say this sounds reasonable? Or not?

    Let’s say it was a group of 20. They would meet together, maybe they would read Psalms together. They would probably pray together. Maybe some days only one person would pray. Maybe other days multiple people would pray. Perhaps they would sing. Now let’s say that there is a member of the group that has indeed been gifted by the Holy Spirit to serve as a pastor. For the sake of simplicity, let’s also say that they are also gifted to teach. At some point during their meeting because this person has been gifted to be a pastor/teacher, they teach what was passed on to them, whether by one of the apostles, or somebody else that learned from an apostle and then passed that teaching on. Perhaps they had a copy of one of apostles letters. They would faithfully and lovingly teach these truths, passing them on to the others who did not know before them, with the hope that they would in turn put these truths into practice and also continue to pass them on. The pastor of this little group, would also hopefully be responsible and also practice what he is teaching. Maybe he would help them figure out how they could practice what was taught.

    Now let’s flash forward to today. A group of believers gather. They sing praises to God. They pray together. Maybe one person prays, maybe several people pray. Maybe somebody reads some Psalms. There is a person in this group of people who has indeed been gifted by the Holy Spirit to pastor others, and again, let’s just assume for simplicity that he is also gifted to teach. So, this person, because they are gifted as such, they read from the letters of the apostles and pass on what has been taught about Jesus and and God and how we are to love and serve one another. This person also practices what he says and also helps others to serve. This is a group not of 20 people though, but of 200. Because this is a larger group, they have a bit more organization than a smaller group. They also have to have a larger place to meet, so there are utility bills to take care of and the building must be upkept. Oh, and if he meets a stranger and they ask him what he does, he answers honestly and says that he serves as a pastor at First Baptist of Somewhereville.

    What is the difference? And why would the modern day situation be bad or wrong, if you think it is wrong? I think we all agree that a pastor should not be self-serving or self promoting or trying to draw attention to themselves. And we also agree that there are a lot of pastors that sadly do just that. Assuming a pastor at a church wasn’t doing any of these things, would you have a problem with them calling themselves a pastor? It the 2nd, modern day example I gave, which you can still find in the world, the person calls themselves a pastor. They would say that that is the position that they fill in their local church. Let’s even say that from the donations that the members give, he is given a percentage as a regular paycheck/stipend/or salary.

    Now, please correct me if I am wrong so I can understand you better, but I am seeing some of you say that it is outright wrong for a person to be a pastor in a church such as this. Is that right? What specifically in this example would make you say that? Remember, we are assuming that the pastor never tells a member, “you must do this, you must not do that” unless it is very clearly laid out in scripture. He is helping other members to find ways to serve. He is trying to living a life of love. But, he does call himself a pastor, he does collect a regular stipend, and he is the main pastor within this small to small/medium sized church.

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25. What’s wrong with that, Joe, is that any hint of someone leading is viewed as taboo on here, regardless of whether or not leading/pastoring/shepherding/overseeing is clearly a biblical role.

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26. “Now, if you rail against this as being wrong because the word for ‘pastor’ isn’t found in every one of these instances, you will only be showing yourself ignorant of the truth that the terms I have mentioned are synonymous for the same position in the church”

    Brian, You keep focusing on “positions” as if you are speaking of the Roman Army and not the priesthood of believer. They are spiritual functions within an un-institutionalized Body of Christ.

    Insulting us as “wailing” because we simply disagree on what scripture is describing is not exactly helping, is it? But it does seem to fit your tradition.

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27. “What’s wrong with that, Joe, is that any hint of someone leading is viewed as taboo on here.”

    No, please do not conflate servant leadership with self promoting, self serving, lording-it-over, coercive exercising of claimed but anti-Biblical authority.

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28. Brian

    You use sayings like – **the Bible’s teaching**
    “do not negate **the truth of God’s Word.**”
    “and critical of anyone who **teaches the biblical truth** “
    “beliefs and how they **line up with Scripture.**

    BUT – Then you use – words and terms – NOT found in the Bible.
    To attempt to persuade folks to your point of view…

    You might NOT realize it – BUT…
    You use many – words and terms – NOT found in the Bible.
    **church leaders**
    **church membership**
    **submission to a pastor**

    And when an elder/overseer can NOT meet Paul’s qualifications in 1 Tim 3 – Titus…
    You replace those tough qualifications with…
    **it’s not one’s perfection,
    but rather the direction they are going that matters.**

    If these terms are NOT in the Bible – Wouldn’t they be…
    Un-Biblical? – Non-Biblical? – Extra-Biblical? – Anti-Biblical?

    If these terms are NOT in the Bible – Wouldn’t they be…
    Commandments of Men? – Doctrines of Men? – Traditions of Men?
    That Jesus warned us about?

    Mark 7:13
    KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
    ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
    NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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29. I’m not focusing on positions, I was answering Amos Love’s request to cite from Scripture examples of pastors in the Bible. Yes, they are spiritual functions! Thank you for admitting that they actually exist within the body of Christ! 🙂

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30. Brian,

    Yes, please do provide Scripture for the assertion that pastor/shepherd is synonymous with elder and overseer. I suppose it may be possible that somebody who serves as a pastor/shepherd in Scripture is also recognized as an elder and/or overseer, but that does not mean all pastors/shepherds are also elders and overseers. Neither does it mean that all overseers and/or elders are also shepherds/pastors. Some lawyers are also judges, but that does not mean that all lawyers are judges.

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31. Brian

    Was wondering…

    I still have two comments in moderation on your site…
    Will you post them?

    And also this question…
    Can you name one of His Disciples who had the “”Title” – Pastor?
    And asked someone to submit to them?

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32. Amos Love, do you deny the existence of the Trinity because the word is not found in the Bible? And speaking of the word ‘Bible’, it’s not in there either, so how do you handle that? What about corporate worship? That term is not in there either. You have set up a false premise that, if a particular word is not in Scripture, then the concept which it denotes must be a false one. You know what, “blog” isn’t in the Bible, so therefore I reject the concept of its existence. “Church building” can’t be found anywhere in there either, so all believers who meet in one must be un-biblical.

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33. Amos, can you name one verse that uses the term “Bible”?

    Can you cite one passage that describes God as a “Trinity”?

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34. And Amos, your comments awaiting moderation on my site say nothing different than what you have said here. I have authority regarding what comments I allow on my site. 😉

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35. Gary, it widely accepted that the terms pastor, elder, shepherd, and overseer all refer to the same position withtin the church. Now, present-day churches may have different structures and roles and titles, but that doesn’t negate the fact that these terms refer to the same role in the NT.

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36. This explains itbetter than I ever could:

    The terms overseer, “elder,” and “pastor” (or “shepherd”) are all used in the NT to refer to the same office. In Titus 1:5–9 “elder” and “overseer” are used interchangeably. In Acts 20:28 Paul tells the Ephesian elders (Gk. presbyteros, Acts 20:17) that “the Holy Spirit has made you overseers [Gk. episkopos], to care for [Gk. poimainō, “to pastor, serve as shepherd of”] the church of God.” Peter also writes, “I exhort the elders [Gk. presbyteros] among you, as a fellow elder … : shepherd [Gk. poimainō, “to pastor”] the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight” (1 Pet. 5:1–2). Paul commends the role of serving the church in this way as a noble task. “Overseer” stresses the role of watching over the congregation (see Heb. 13:17).

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37. Brian

    Praise the Lord – We agree on somptin – A Notable Miracle – Yes?

    “Yes, they are spiritual functions! ”

    Yup – Spiritual Functions – NOT
    Paid Professional Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews

    And – I never said shepherds do NOT exist in the Body of Christ.

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38. Regarding “authority”: The conversation on this has gone far beyond the splitting of hairs to the straining of gnats. The discussion has degenerated far past the point of reductio ad absurdum, so maybe we can agree to disagree and bring the discussion back to something that might actually prove fruitful.

    Also, regarding authority, I have been given a certain amount of authority by the blog owner to moderate discussions and participants using my best judgement. There is a commentor that has been placed on immediate moderation by Julie Anne, and he and we know who he is. I would suggest that commentor refrain from his constant agitation of the moderator and blog owner and focus on his own blog, or another one where his tactics are welcome. Until such time as that commentor makes an apology to the entire SSB community, and proves that he has changed his posting attitude, I will delete his comments immediately so that there may be no interference or distraction from him at all in any blog post.

    When authority is implied in a mutual relationship, either party is free to accept or deny that authority. When authority is granted by one who has the ability to grant true authority, then either people comply with the authority or leave. Either way, we all have a choice as to how far we will submit.

    I don’t like to have to say these things at all, but the conversation has gone far past being productive, so I hope we can move towards reconciliation and productivity. As Brian alluded to earlier, our real focus should be on Christ and Him crucified. Let’s all try to remember that the rest of our discussions are secondary to that.

    May Christ bless us all and open our hearts to His love and love of each other,
    Fiat Pax

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39. Amos,

    What exactly is sinful about people sitting in pews. They are all facing whoever it is that is speaking, because if they were behind the person and group were large enough, they may not here. What is sinful about a person speaking from a stage where others can see them? Don’t you generally find it easier to pay attention to one speaking when you can see them? Or, you can at least pick up on non-verbal communication cues more easily too. And what is sinful about being paid to serve in a position? Paul accepted monetary aide from those he had served.

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40. A Amos said to me:

    “You write…
    “There are church pastors, so I am not getting what you are saying.”

    Name one… In the Bible…

    Name one… Today…”

    My response:

    What are you talking about, “Name one”? What is that supposed to mean? Who cares what their name was? Fact, the word Pastor is in the Bible.

    NAME WHERE.

    You keep denying that certain words are not found in the Bible, when in fact they are.

    Ed

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41. JoeJoe asks A Amos Love:
    “What exactly is sinful about people sitting in pews.” (Where is the question mark?)

    When I was a kid, if something stinks, we said, “PEW”.

    I prefer to sit in a chair. The pews stink.

    OK, I know…again…don’t quit my day job.

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42. OK, so what about this one?

    JoeJoe asks A Amos Love:
    ” What is sinful about a person speaking from a stage where others can see them?”

    My response:
    Whoever is speaking on the stage better be introducing the a Pink Floyd. And the people who are standing better sit down, so that I can see the band.

    No? OK, maybe I won’t be here all week, but tip your waitresses anyway. After all, they are Bishops (in charge of waiting on tables).

    Ed

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43. Amos Love, how do you handle the fact that Jesus commanded for those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel? In other words, those who preach and teach are supposed to be supported financial by the church.

    “Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.” – 1 Cor. 9:13-14

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44. In deference to Fiat Pax at 11:49, I will not respond to Brian at 11:38 and 11:40. Brian, please do not think it is because I am blowing you off. I value your input, even when I do not agree.

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45. That’s ok, Gary. I am not sure how you could disagree anyway, seeing as the words are used together, in the same sentences when referring to the same position. 🙂

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46. Brian,

    Uh, uh. That’s not fair, taking advantage of my commitment to remain quiet, all in the name of getting in the last word. No, correction. That would now be two last words without risk of rebuttal.

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47. Brian,

    Did you leave out verse 15-18 on purpose?

    15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

    16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

    17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

    18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

    19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

    Reiterate Verse 18, then go back to verse 15, then back to verse 19.

    The word (food) is free. Back in the “prophets”, Isaiah, I believe, it is written to buy food that is free. That food is the word of God.

    The Apostle Paul was a tent maker by trade. He didn’t give up that trade to spread the gospel. He worked whenever and where ever possible, spreading the gospel to even those people, where ever he traveled. FREE…my favorite four letter word.

    Ed

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48. OK, so, stop me if you heard this one…

    A Calvinist walks into a bar…

    Wait a minute. Do Calvinists walk into bars? Why is it always a priest and a rabbi that walks into a bar?

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49. Ed, what Paul did personally (and for a very short while) does not invalidate what he just said in the previous verses. In fact, Paul only supported himself as a tentmaker for a short time while he was in Corinth, until Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia. After he was “occupied with the word”. (Acts 18:5)

    A quick perusal of his letters will show Paul being supported financially by other churches.

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50. Brian wrote~

    “Amos Love, how do you handle the fact that Jesus commanded for those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel? In other words, those who preach and teach are supposed to be supported financial by the church.”

    Wow we are rather jumping all over the place. I am not Amos, but I would sure look at the entire chapter and not merely two verses. But I am sure you have done that.

    Another view to consider:

    “So instead of isolating verses such as 1Cor 9:14 out of context, as if this were some kind of mandatory “command” for pastors to receive an income from the church, Christians need to read the whole passage in context. And if they have eyes to see, they will hopefully understand that this is not the case at all, but rather that those who preach the Gospel have a right of support under certain special conditions or extenuating circumstances, and that to abstain is the better way so as not to hinder the Gospel.”
    http://www.truthguard.com/Articles/has-god-really-commanded-that-pastors-be-paid-a66.html

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51. Brian said: “And Amos, your comments awaiting moderation on my site say nothing different than what you have said here. I have authority regarding what comments I allow on my site. ;-)”

    Lol. Ok now I’m getting why Fiat Pax said what he did.

    I’m out and about today and so thankful for the extra set of eyes.

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52. A quick perusal of his letters will show Paul being supported financially by other churches.

    Fulltime?

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53. “It doesn’t take a genius to figure this out. Here we have the heart of God on the matter – Jesus speaking through His Word and basically saying (in so many words) that He loves us so much that He is not going to allow those who preach the Gospel to starve, even at the cost of hindering the precious Gospel (which their collecting an income will cause), but that He greatly prefers abstinence instead. Love can see this view. Greed cannot. This is one of the reasons it is so important for Christians to approach the Bible from the right perspective or they risk deceiving themselves.

    By no means did Paul approve of collecting an income from the church, let alone a regular ongoing income. Paul was no hireling. He did not settle in expecting a comfortable income from church members. In times where he may not have been able to find work for his hands (he was a tent maker by trade) or where various urgencies may have come up and his traveling schedule may not have permitted him to work, etc., he accepted help yet obviously reluctantly.”

    From my link above.

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54. Brian said:
    “Ed, what Paul did personally (and for a very short while) does not invalidate what he just said in the previous verses”

    Sure sounds to me as he invalidated it for himself, and he gave a reason. His reason, so that he does not abuse his power in the gospel. And, Paul hopes that we all would follow him as he follows Christ.

    FREE.

    Ed

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55. “5. The words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:14 (“those who preach the Gospel should receive their living from the Gospel”) is another frequently cited text in support of salaried pastors. But this interpretation is highly dubious, as Atkerson and Svendsen point out:

    1 Corinthians 9 does not refer to pastors, elders, or any other leader normally associated with today’s church. Instead it refers to “apostles” (those who are sent out), roughly equivalent to today’s missionary. We are to financially support “those who proclaim the Gospel” because of the nature of their work. The fundamental difference between the work of an elder (who is not financially supported) and the work of an apostle (who is financially supported) is that the apostle must uproot and travel from location to location. His stay is temporary; consequently, his odds for gaining employment at each location are slim. He would therefore need financial assistance to do the work for which he was sent. The elder, on the other hand, is stationed at one location. His stay is permanent… Even the apostles did not make their living from the church. The passage in question simply means that the need of the apostle for food, shelter, and clothing were to be met by the church (Matthew 10:9-11 was no doubt the pattern that the early church used for apostles). There was no salary involved (The Practice of the Early Church, pp. 41-42).”
    http://www.batteredsheep.com/pastors_salaried.html

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56. “Simon J. Kistemaker, who served for many years as professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary, states:

    In his [Paul] letters he discloses that he worked night and day with his own hands to support himself, so that no one would ever be able to accuse him of depending on the hearers of the Gospel for his material needs (compare 1 Samuel 12:3). He refused to be a burden to anyone in the churches he established. By performing manual labor, he provided for his financial needs. Paul received gifts from the believers in Philippi, as he himself reveals (Philippians 2:25; 4:16-18), yet he declares that he did not solicit those gifts… The Ephesian elders had observed Paul’s ministry and physical work during his three-year stay. They were able to testify that he had never exploited anyone (2 Corinthians 7:2), but had always set an example of diligence and self-sufficiency, in the good sense of the word. He was a model to the believers and taught the rule: “If you will not work, you shall not eat” (2 Thessalonians 3:10)… It appears that Paul generated sufficient income to support not only himself but even his companions… In every respect, says Paul to the elders of Ephesus, I taught you to work hard and with your earnings to help the weak… He exhorts them to follow his example and to labor hard (New Testament Commentary: Acts [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1990] pp. 737,740).”

    http://www.batteredsheep.com/pastors_salaried.html

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57. What is the collection plate really supposed to be for?

    Act 4:
    34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

    35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
    *********************

    According as he had need…to EVERY MAN.

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58. One monetary area where Paul was relentless was collecting money was for believers in Jerusalem who were being persecuted. He never once mentions the collection was to pay the pastor/elder/shepherd. :o)

    Brian do you realize that you stated earlier that you have changed your mind about CJ Mahaney after the scandals had become known. If you had been in an SGM church and had this view on authority, you would have been not only enabling much evil over the years but protecting and promoting it. All because you believed in a mediator between us and Christ in some form of human authority. And many of the Reformed gurus support him and many young men are being led astray. All in the name of leadership. It is misplaced and dangerous for everyone involved. There comes a time to learn a lesson from such things. It is foolish to think CJ started out that way. But seeking and having authority over a period of time changes people. I have witnessed it for many years. It becomes about keeping the image. And lots of bodies are in the wake from this teaching of following men instead of Christ.

    You are given the same Holy Spirit anointing if you are a believer. Make use of it.

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59. Lydia,

    You say to Brian that he is “given the same Holy Spirit anointing if you are a believer.” Now, I don’t want to get into speculating on who does and does not have what Holy Spirit anointing, but I do believe it is significant that conservative/fundamentalist evangelicals largely discount the empowering presence and work of Holy Spirit in believers’ lives. For example if you look at what T4G says they affirm and deny (http://tinyurl.com/md3xodt), their only mention of Holy Spirit is that He is a member of the trinity. They appear to leave Holy Spirit out of the salvic process when they say that they deny “that the truth of the Gospel can be expressed or grounded in anything less than total confidence in the veracity of the Bible, the historicity of biblical events, and the ability of language to convey understandable truth in sentence form.” The whole emphasis is on right thinking, to the point of looking like salvation depends upon it.

    I haven’t thought it all through, but it really does seem to me that, in conservative/fundamentalist evangelicalism, Holy Spirit has been replaced by Theologians.

    Jesus said, “When the Theologians come, they will guide you into all the truth.” NOT!!

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60. CJ had serious control, pride, blackmail issues BEFORE the horrific crimes on children surfaced while he was standing watch. CON seems of the same mold. When wrong-doers are pastors, they are very hard to remove. Wrong actions have to become extreme before they are noticed. And the laity are the ones speaking up, not their peer, friend pastors. These same pastors, with oodles of rules for the laity, cry fowl at the littlest offenses they see in certain “rebellious” individuals, to “protect the purity” of the church. While other individuals get a way with XYZ, as long as they don’t rock the boat. Truly a gathering of believers?

    If the laity always know better than the pastors & basically have to push them while they’re kicking & screaming into doing the right thing (& even then they still won’t do it), please remind me why so many pastors are needed.

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61. Julie Anne,
    You need a warning on your blog: Do not assume the commenters on this blog are unbelieving, ignorant wailers. If you do, you might come away learning a thing or two. 😉

    I am in awe of the many scholarly commenters here! I am “getting taught” as well. 😉

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62. Gary W, I am right there with you. Have noticed this for a long while now. I have to go back to my childhood to remember any consistent teaching on the Holy Spirit’s function in a believers life. Based on what I am hearing so much of today, I often wonder whatever did they do before the Canon? :o)

    Some take it too far with Holiness Charismata stuff and others totally ignore the Holy Spirit altogether replacing that function with the pastors/elders/shepherds in a believers life. There seems to be little understanding of the simple day to day walking in the light seeking out the Advocate/Counselor to guide us.

    It is a crying shame.

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63. A mom,

    I read the SGM wikileaks docs. That was PROOF they were frauds even without all the child molestation stuff. But they sounded very similar to what I witnessed in the seeker mega world at that stratosphere. Little men with way too much power, money and time on their hands. I could only think in both venues they all needed to get real jobs and a reality check.

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64. A Mom wrote~

    “CJ had serious control, pride, blackmail issues BEFORE the horrific crimes on children surfaced while he was standing watch.’

    Yes–the SGM authoritarian top down pyramid system is corrupt, yet Brian states he was a “huge supporter of SGM” before the scandal. I have asked him several times–supporter of what exactly?…but I still do not know.

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65. Yes. The Holy Spirit lives within us. But the Holy Spirit has been demoted to last in the pecking order of God by reformed circles. See (ESS), (EFS).

    Romans 8: 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
    12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

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66. @ lydiasellerofpurple~

    I read every page of the docs. It was grueling…grueling reading. Money, power and time on their hands,,,times infinity.

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67. Oops. Meant to say: The Holy Spirit lives within us.
    Not: The Holy Spirit lives with us. Sorry!

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68. And guess what, Diane? Many “authorities” in the SGM churches (before the mass exodus) told the pew sitters it was a sin/gossip to read them or blogs. Can you imagine? Their own leaders words are a sin to read because they were not to know what they were really all about. The only way authority works these days is censorship…teaching that any mention of a negative truth is a sin. And that is only because magistrates are illegal now. And Mohler, Dever, Piper, Bridgers and a host of other Reformed guys have supported this stuff all along working hard to defend Mahaney. Now, after the T4G (and TGC) statement debacle they want us to forget about Mahaney without ever having to mention their part in all this. There is a money/influence gravy train to worry about.

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69. A Mom,

    “You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,” &c. While they still give lip service to the idea of receiving the Spirit, it was explained to me in a Southern Baptist Sunday School that the Spirit’s gifts have passed away. You see, now that we have the Bible, we do not need need the Spirit’s gifts.

    I, on the other hand, posit that the reason there has been no new Scripture for almost two millennia is that we have been given the Spirit. I am holding on to a high view of the authority of Scripture, but I have an increasingly low view of its sufficiency as a standalone resource. If the Spirit does not unfold Scripture for us, then which of all the competing interpretations are we to embrace?

    And this from somebody who has recently disclosed to you (July 26, 2013 @ 8:25 AM) that his faith is lived out primarily in the realm of the mind.

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70. lydiasellerofpurple wrote~

    “Their own leaders words are a sin to read because they were not to know what they were really all about.”

    I loved how people were saying…it’s all gossip…it’s all slander in those documents.
    No….it was obsessive compulsive email after email after email…their own words which condemned them. Plus a telephone call transcript that revealed so much.

    And….

    “The only way authority works these days is censorship…teaching that any mention of a negative truth is a sin.”

    Remember how Ray Ortlund wrote a post just for Mahaney where he said even if something negative is a fact, that does not justify passing it along. He writes-

    “It’s easy to justify spreading a negative report about someone, if we believe it to be true. But even if it is true – not an opinion, not an accusation, not a rumor, but a properly established fact – that does not justify passing it along. The Bible says, “A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back”. The Bible says, “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear”. Whatever we might feel like saying or posting, however intensely we might feel it, the gospel simply changes the subject. Three times the risen Jesus greeted his disciples this way: “Peace be with you. If we will bring our tongues under the control of his peace, our churches will be safe places where more people can meet Christ. And no grievance is worth disturbing that blood-bought peace.”

    No warning allowed, I guess. Then there was this guilt trip gem in the same article where he says that all pastors have going for themselves is their reputation. ?

    “A pastor’s high visibility makes him especially vulnerable to destructive talk. We pastors have no coercive power, and we don’t want any. We want winsome influence, as we preach the message of Christ and bear the image of Christ. But to serve people effectively in that way, all we pastors have going for us is our reputations, our public acceptability. That is why it is a sin of special seriousness to injure the reputation of a gospel-preaching, godly pastor. He is not the only one who suffers. The cause of Christ suffers.”
    Ray Ortlund TGC October 14 2011

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71. Oh yes, I remember, Diane. And Carl Truman one of 3 who exonerated Mahaney early on along with Ortlund recently wrote a negative article about celebrity pastors! And they expect us to take their words seriously? Do people not have the ability to connect dots anymore? The ONLY way this stuff works is for people to believe in some special authority because of a title. “Authority” is all they have in order to cling to their positions and the gravy train. Because they sure do not have moral credibility!

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72. I hear ya, Gary W.

    The reformed group wants people to focus only on the Bible, it seems. And it’s through Calvin’s lens. Mainly Romans, what apostle Paul said. And much of scripture is not discussed. Like proverbs. And the gospels. This seems VERY imbalanced to me.

    Why is wisdom, common sense, conscience, Holy Spirit, not valued? Well, those things equip the saints. 😉

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73. Gary W.: I checked out that T4G article you linked to earlier and noted this sentence from their page:

    We are concerned about the tendency of so many Churches to substitute technique for truth, therapy for theology, and management for ministry.

    Management for ministry??????? I think we should send these guys a big ol’ mirror. Their whole ministry is “management for ministry.”

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74. Julie Anne,

    Yeah, and what about this no-therapy-just-theology business? Therapy, as in θεραπεύω, therapeuo = to HEAL. Gotta get people to think the right thoughts and assume the right gender roles because that’s all salvic. But to think that the gospel might actually involve healing, and especially EMOTIONAL healing? My God absolutely forbid! That would involve the production of actual fruit, the absence of which fruit would be absolutely damning to these apostles of a no-more-than-a-ticket-to-heaven gospel. Well, I’m sorry, but Jesus spent a goodly amount of his ministry HEALING. I will be bold to say He is still the great HEALER–not just of our physical bodies, but of our emotions as well.

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75. A Mom,

    It’s interesting that you point out that the Gospels themselves tend to be missing from any discussion of the gospel by the T4G types. I’m not sure you could find their version of the gospel in the Gospels.

    Lets see, their gospel goes something like this: 1. All have sinned; 2. The wages of sin are death (read eternal, conscious torment). 3. We are saved by grace through faith apart from works. 4. Saving faith is appropriated by saying a prayer in which we confess we are sinners, assure God that we repent, ask Jesus into our hearts, and commit to make Jesus Lord of our lives. Except that the part about making Him Lord is often omitted in my experience of long years in Baptist churches. And no need for a life of faithful, loving, obedience in actual relationship with our Lord. Once we’ve said that magic prayer, we’re all eternally secure. (Woo hoo! Think I’ll go out and eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow I die and go to heaven.)

    O.K., so where can any of that be found in Matthew, Mark Luke and John? Jesus calls for actual repentance, as opposed to some prayer in which we simply mouth words of repentance. I’m probably missing something, but that’s about it so far as I can think. Did the thief on the cross who was assured of paradise even have time to say the prayer?

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76. So the thread moved from authority to preaching/teaching to financial support. Can I give my thoughts on preaching & teaching? I realize it may be unconventional.
    I think most preaching today is evangelizing the lost. Gospel mostly. The saints are ill-equipped. Maybe no one else sees it that way?
    IMO, when only one person is assigned to preach to everyone, chances are he is elevated & they are dependent. It’s the structure’s fault, not necessarily the person (although with CJ et al it’s both). This creates anemia or immaturity. Dependency is rampant. Much preaching is man’s theology, instead of: be born again & learn how to follow Jesus the rest of our days. Some seem to be followers of Paul, not Jesus. I’m not against church or pastors at all, I’m just saying what I see happening & why. I like my pastor!
    Typically, preaching from the pulpit does not allow for questions. Trust me, people either leave unaffected or with lots of never-answered questions.
    I think Bible studies, Sunday schools, home groups, informal gatherings, simple phone conversations, these types of blogs are where much learning & questioning & wrestling & growing in faith occurs. Who’s equipping the saints? Laity mostly. These “gathering of believers” look more like the NT than a Sunday morning church sermon.
    It seems there is an underlying, unspoken concern that without the leadership of one person, everyone will go to hell in a hand-basket. If that’s true, laity truly are destined to be dependent babies.
    Lecture “style” sermons don’t seem to produce mature believers. Seminary lectures don’t seem to produce mature leaders either. We are equipped with more tools today to understand the Bible than the priests, leaders, kings of the past, who were the only ones allowed to even touch the Bible.
    When people are fenced in & then bump into differing views, they are more likely to leave the faith. This is not the right way. Pastors need to invite questions, open discussion, dialogue. Not shut it down.

    So what’s not happening in many churches is happening right here. Discussion. Persuasion. Study. Thinking. Questioning. Wrestling. Growing. There are scholars here. No money, membership, submission, agreement required. No one has been appointed, authorized, approved. This seems to scare & even anger certain pastors & their peeps. But I think it’s great.

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77. Gary W,
    The T4G types never get past the cross, or what they call “gospel”. The 4 gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are actually about the life of Jesus, from birth to resurrection. There is valuable teaching from Jesus on how we are to live, the abundant life, that is ignored.

    It’s all about the cross, the death of Jesus, with them. Death. Jesus was righteous for us. Nothing else. Nothing to do. Nothing else to learn or know.

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78. What’s also being ignored, by many Church’s, is that ALL OF the Law (Genesis-Deuteronomy) and The Prophets and the Psalms reveals Jesus. At best, we might hear about Isaiah 7, 9, 50, and 53.

    Jesus said himself that Jonah was a prophet. Was Jonah’s story about REALLY about Jonah, or was it about Jesus?

    Was the story of Noah’s Ark really about a big boat that carried 8 souls saved by water? Or was it REALLY about Jesus?

    Is the feast of the Passover really about a ceremony of remembrance about God parting the Red Sea, by eating food and some really nasty bread, or is it REALLY about Jesus?

    I could go on and on and on about the HINTS that Jesus gave about US as individuals to SEEK the HIDDEN treasures in the Hebrew scriptures. It’s there for us to find.

    From what I am seeing, and it was noted, Calvinists tend to concentrate on Romans, and Ephesians, mostly. Oh, and the Pharaoh in Romans 9, more than the Pharaoh in Genesis.

    And even if they did move to the “old test” scriptures, as most would say, they still miss the spiritual stories that reveals the real Jesus in ALL OF THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS, in which Jesus revealed himself from to his disciples after he rose from the dead.

    It was like Jesus was saying, “LOOK, GUYS…IT IS WRITTEN OF ME HERE, AND HERE, AND HERE, AND HERE.”

    So, the disciples would be smacking their foreheads with the palm of their hand, and say, “NOW I GET IT”.

    Ed

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79. You guys are so proving my article which set all this in motion. You are attacking the “T4G types” and making all sorts of confident assertions, based upon what, I haven’t a clue. What I do know is that you’re not basing any of them off of first-hand knowledge. If you were you wouldn’t be making such ridiculous claims such as “they only stay in Romans and Ephesians and never go to the Old Testament”. That’s either a wilfully ignorant statement, or just a plain ole ignorant one. Take your pick.

    Yeah, us T4G “types” are so loath to go near the OT that one of our national conferences a couple years back was about nothing else but seeing Jesus in the Old Testament. I wish you guys could step back and hear yourselves rant about things of which you have apparently NO clue. Either that or, as I mentioned, you are just being wilfully ignorant and are attacking just for the sake of the attack. I’m not sure which is worse. Either way it’s shameful.

    Before you jump to all of your conclusions and start a feeding frenzy amongst yourselves on all the judgmental fodder, though quite fun for you, is serving no real purpose except to tear down that which you, according to your own conclusions, know little to nothing about.

    Carry on…

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80. And because this is SSB and not TGC or T4G, your comment gets to remain, Brian 🙂

    Carry on . . . .

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81. Snark aside, Brian, I am glad you feel free to share your frustrations here. I’m not glad that you are frustrated, however. I hope for some good dialogue.

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82. Brian,

    Over on your own blog you have this to say about yourself: “WHY AM I DOING THIS?: As much as an amateur blogger and theologian can do this…I want to make you think. I want you to know what you believe and why you believe it. And I want you to believe what you do – not because Mommy and Daddy believed it – but because it is the truth as contained in the Scriptures. I pray that God will use this blog and the resources and links provided here to grow its readers (including me) in the grace and knowledge of Christ. I pray this knowledge will result in a life of obedience that flows – not from fear or a desire to gain God’s favor – but from a gratitude of knowing the truth about Who your Creator is, and what your Creator has done for you.”

    Wonderful. And so your idea of getting us to think for ourselves is accusing us of being ignorant and shameful (your comment of this date, 8:46 PM). O.K., I can deal with that.

    Next issue. You would inculcate “a life of obedience that flows – not from fear or a desire to gain God’s favor – but from a gratitude of knowing the truth about Who your Creator is, and what your Creator has done for you.” Good. Maybe you can help me out here. I have a real problem with the god you T4G types preach. It has to do with the fact that there is an awful lot of unexplainable evil in this world. However, as I recently commented on another blog, I have less trouble with God’s passive allowing of all the unjust evil in the world, as awful as it is, than with the idea of what God is said, by you T4G types, to actively inflict in eternity. Here is where I am coming from. There were people in my life who loved me like a second set of parents. They are dead now. According to what I know (and I can only hope my knowledge is incomplete), and according to the evangelical idea of how we are justified, redeemed, saved, etc., it would appear that these people, who I loved and love, are destined to ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT. Their good works, the love they lived towards me and many others, will count for nothing so far as eternity is concerned. I am sorry. While I must be careful lest I be justly accused of blasphemy, I cannot see how any of this is compatible with the notion of a just God, with the notion that God is Love.

    So help me out here. It appears to me that your god is less just than Adolph Hitler. Hitler’s victims only suffered until they died. I demand that you explain to me. How is any of this, how is the knowledge that my most loving grandparents are destined to burn forever and ever; how is this knowledge supposed to cause me to have a gratitude from knowing the truth about who my creator is, and what my creator has done for me.

    Don’t get me wrong. There are satisfactory Biblical answers to the challenge I have raised. It’s just that you T4G types do not see, and seemingly reject, the answers. For this reason, I deem any theology aligned with the Grudem/Piper/Edwards/Calvin/Augustine line of thinking to be utterly and unalterably bankrupt, both intellectually and morally.

    Your turn to think. I hope you surprise me. Do, however, save us the insults.

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83. Okay Brian, Maybe you were in the wrong stadium? Anyway, glad you brought it up.
    I checked out 2010 T4G conference topics:
    The Church is the GOSPEL – Dever
    Defense of the GOSPEL
    Trajectories towards an adjusted GOSPEL – Mohler
    How wrongly engaging the culture adjusts the GOSPEL
    The theology of sleep – MacArthur
    Did Jesus preach Paul’s GOSPEL – Piper
    Did the Fathers know the GOSPEL – Duncan
    Prepare your church for SUFFERING – Chandler
    Ordinary pastors – CJ

    Hmmm. 6 GOSPEL. 1 on sleep. 1 on suffering. 1 on pastors.
    As an aside, did you notice Chandler’s & CJ’s topics? I think they got their topics mixed up.

    BTW, the 2010 Conference was titled, “The Unadjusted GOSPEL”

    The reformed crowd doesn’t move off from the gospel. And by gospel, they’re talking about the cross, Christ crucified. The mind never leaves the foot of the cross. Did they forget about the resurrection? The angels told the women at the tomb to go tell, right?

    What I forgot to mention in my earlier comment is that SUFFERING comes in at a close second. They really enjoy preaching the good news of SUFFERING to the laity A LOT.

    Oh, and Complementarianism is probably third, along with ESS, EFS to back it up.

    Gospel marriage. Gospel kids. Gospel dog. Gospel church. Everything is the gospel. Everything is salvific. Is the church really the gospel, as Dever’s topic states? I thought the church PROCLAIMED the gospel. Why are these pastors preaching the gospel every Sunday? Does the laity need to be re-saved every week? Or do they think the laity don’t believe? Shouldn’t the gospel be shared with unbelievers instead? And shouldn’t believers be taught how to follow Jesus?

    My comment earlier, “The 4 gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are actually about the life of Jesus, from birth to resurrection. There is valuable teaching from Jesus on how we are to live, the abundant life, that is ignored.”

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84. Excellent comment, A Mom.

    One of the things Paul Dohse brought home to me was the incessant “preach yourself the gospel daily” mentality that these guys do. It sounds super spiritual and good and all that, but it keeps the focus of Jesus on the cross and of our sin that put him there. God tells us as far as the east is from the west, He remembers our sin no more. Praise God, Hallelujah, but why do those verses seem neglected? Aren’t we more than conquerors – that Christ’s work is DONE on the cross? I am a New Creation in Christ!

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85. I didn’t say it was a T4G conference, but one just as evil in your eyes…the dreaded Gospel Coalition! The irony of all the comments on here railing against the “T4G types” is that, contrary to all of your remarks about how we avoid focusing on Christ, my growth in understanding how all of Scripture is about and points to Jesus has been largely due to those associated with the very groups you claim avoid this truth. Now you can disagree with me until you are red in the face, but the fact remains that I have a Christ- centered hermeneutic because of people like Chandler, Begg, Keller, Elyse Fitzpatrick, Ed Clowney, Ray Ortland, Tchividjian, Dever, and yes, Luther, Calvin and Spurgeon, just to name a few.

    Julie, preaching the gospel daily to yourself does not keep Jesus on the cross and your sin sin. The gospel is the good news that Jesus has done for me what I never could have done for myself. He has given me his righteousness and has taken my sin upon himself and paid the penalty that I deserved to pay! I am now counted righteous because of him! That’s amazing to ponder!

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86. Brian,
    You are entitled to your opinion. Call me ridiculous & ignorant for seeing followers of Paul & not Jesus, for saying they preach mainly on the cross. I am entitled to my opinion & I can back it up with facts. Here are so more facts:

    At the 2010 T4G Conference, Piper’s message was, “Did Jesus preach Paul’s Gospel?” In the first 5 minutes he says he’s concern with whether evangelicalism get’s PAUL’S GOSPEL right.

    I don’t have time to listen & transcript. But if anyone finds the transcript please provide the link. If anyone has time to listen & wants to comment on it, please do.

    Also, I looked through 2012 Conference titled, you guessed it, “The underestimated GOSPEL” to see what topics were being taught. The GOSPEL category gets the most speeches.

    As an aside, CJ’s topic was titled, “When a pastor looses heart”. Anyone curious?

    T4G’s about tab: “So a biennial conference began in 2006 to serve one main purpose: to encourage other pastors to stand together for the same gospel.”

    Friends, T4G is preaching the GOSPEL to pastors. This conference is for pastors! T4G is raking in the money & limelight by teaching pastors the gospel. Which gospel? It’s not about following Jesus. It’s not a gospel of love at all where Jesus is our only king. I would say they are teaching a re-defined gospel, a totally depraved front row seat to suffer under the cross gospel, which needs to be drilled into brains often & repeatedly.

    Thoughts anyone?

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87. Brian said, “He has given me his righteousness and has taken my sin upon himself and paid the penalty that I deserved to pay! I am now counted righteous because of him! That’s amazing to ponder!”

    Ponder this. You are not counted righteous if you molest children, kill, steal, & destroy. Jesus’ perfection, death on the cross, & resurrection does not give you license to do any of these things today & until you die. “Jesus was righteous for me so I don’t have to be righteous” is a false teaching.

    The only time all sin is the same is at the point of salvation. Yes these people, upon hearing the Good News, can repent & turn away from their sin. Or they can reject & go on sinning. Two choices. And it’s completely their choice. God leaves it up to them. God doesn’t make people do bad things. God is not good & evil, yin & yang. Nor is God a hierarchical structure. Seems like there’s much paganism in your religion.

    What you think the gospel means & what I think it means are two totally diametrically different views. You’re not seeing God’s love throughout the Bible, your seeing the cross & death throughout the Bible.

    Don’t tell me to teach children they are horribly broken. I won’t do it.

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88. Julie,

    Are you really against preaching the gospel to yourself? The gospel is as vital for Christians as it is for those who have not yet repented and believed. Paul, in his letter to the church at Rome, epxresses how badly he wants to come to them so that he can preach the gospel to them. Wait…what? Why would he want to proclaim the gospel to them if they are already saved? Because the gospel not only saves, but it also sanctifies. We are so prone to forget the good news of our justification by the work of Christ on our behalf that we need to constantly remind ourselves of that good news. That’s what Paul wanted to do with the Christians in Rome. He was looking forward to preaching the gospel to the believers there.

    The focus of proclaiming the gospel to ourselves is not to focus on our sin. Quite the opposite! Preaching the gospel to yourself daily reminds you that you are no longer guilty in the eyes of God, beacuse Jesus has paid the price once and for all! It is finished!

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89. A Mom,

    We are all born guilty and sinful. David even proclaimed this truth: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

    Here is a PERFECT example from “A Mom” of setting up a strawman argument and then knocking it down:

    “You are not counted righteous if you molest children, kill, steal, & destroy. Jesus’ perfection, death on the cross, & resurrection does not give you license to do any of these things today & until you die. “Jesus was righteous for me so I don’t have to be righteous” is a false teaching.”

    Who in the world has said anything like this on here? Certainly not me. Please, do us a favor and address what has actually been said, not some false straw man caricature that has nothing to do with anything I have said. Thank you.

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90. Brian,
    Tell me if this is the Gospel:

    Christ MAY HAVE died for you. I just don’t know if you are elect or not.

    But if you are NOT one of the elect, then that means that God predestined YOU to hell from the FOUNDATION of the world (Before you ever existed).

    BUT IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT. YOU CAN’T BLAME GOD, because GOD GETS THE GLORY.

    That is your twisted God. But then I would get a response something like this:

    Oh, you just don’t understand God. God hasn’t given you saving faith. You are utterly depraved. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

    The Gospel, according to Calvin…You may have won a ticket to heaven…IF YOU HOLD THE WINNING TICKET.

    Ed

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91. Brian,

    You said:
    “We are all born guilty”

    My response: NO WE ARE NOT ALL BORN GUILTY. NO ONE IS.

    You drank the Kool Aid.

    Ed

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92. A Mom,

    I’m not entirely sure what you mean by this statement: Don’t tell me to teach children they are horribly broken. I won’t do it.

    Are you saying that you wouldn’t tell a child that all have sinned, including them, and because of their sin they are seperated from God, and that there is nothing they can do to reach God on their own? That is a basic and fundamental truth of the Christian faith. (Obviously, the story doesn’t end there, as God made a way for us to have a relationship with him through Christ’s sacrifice). Or are you speaking of brokenness in another way? If so, could you please explain? Thanks!

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93. Brian said

    Julie, preaching the gospel daily to yourself does not keep Jesus on the cross and your sin sin. The gospel is the good news that Jesus has done for me what I never could have done for myself.

    I’m glad you have gone beyond the cross because many people simply can’t. Their pastors/church leaders keep heaping sin upon sin, forcing their congregants to navel gaze at how undeserving they are. They wallow in their sin to such an extent that many, many wonder if they are in fact even saved.

    This teaching causes people to doubt their salvation. I wouldn’t have believed if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes over and over again by Christians who once were one walking confidently, assured of their salvation, but then after this teaching, left so confused. The worse-case scenario (which I have also seen too many times) is that this never-can-measure-up attitude can become so strong that eventually they give up entirely and decide it doesn’t matter anymore. They can’t “do” it. You and I both know that they cannot “do” it, but that is what this teaching produces. They leave God/church entirely.

    The Holy Spirit prompted me about this when I was at BGBC and then I’ve read about it so many times other places (SGMSurvivors). This is false teaching that leads people down this path of emotional/spiritual turmoil.

    As I said, there are those who will leave the church entirely at their lowest point, but others will remain, hanging on by a thread, longing to hear something from their pastor/church leader which will finally release them from this misery.

    This is a control tool, a false doctrine used by many pastors today. It is destructive and the rotten fruit of it is partly responsible for keeping my blog alive and growing with readers who can relate and share their experiences here.

    I’d like to say that my blog is growing because of my charming personality. I don’t think that is the case, sadly.

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94. JoeJoe,
    You sound like you drank the koolaid as well, if you really believe that children are guilty of sin.

    Children are NOT SEPARATED FROM GOD. We die a spiritual death, we are not born spiritually dead.

    That’s a teaching of “original sin” which the Catholics invented, and it was passed down to Calvin, and still taught today.

    Does anyone ever happen to INDEPENDENTLY study the Bible without outside influence of all those names that Brian stated?

    It makes me so mad that people would even consider that a baby is guilty of sin. That is preposterous.

    Ed

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95. Gary,

    I obviously don’t know the people you referenced above who have now died. I don’t know anything about what they believed regarding Jesus. What I do know is what Scripture tells us. And we can either believe what Scripture says or we can reject it based upon our personal experiences. God’s word is clear that faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. It is also clear that we are justified, redeemed, saved, and kept in that salvation by Christ alone. Apart from Him, there is no salvation. If that sounds harsh, I am sorry. But all I am doing is proclaiming what God himself has proclaimed.

    And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12 ESV)

    For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:5-11 ESV)

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96. I would say they are teaching a re-defined gospel, a totally depraved front row seat to suffer under the cross gospel, which needs to be drilled into brains often & repeatedly.

    If you look at the church as a business as some have suggested recently, this emphasis on “gospel this” and “gospel that” could almost be looked at as a marketing ploy for more business. If you can keep reminding people that they don’t measure up, it might keep them coming back for more, in anticipation of the day they finally get that relief.

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97. Brian,

    But you believe that in order for you to be saved, that God must be the one to give you faith, hence the Calvinist term, “saving faith”, right?

    Ed

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98. chapmaned24,

    None of what you stated just above is the gospel. Here is the gospel:

    The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-31 ESV)

    And here:

    Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 ESV)

    I can provide many more for you if wish. Just let me know.

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99. We can see that Brian can easily quote scripture, and speak Christianese, but his bottom line is much different than how most Christians outside of Calvinism sees it.

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100. Brian,

     Calvinists have a doctrine for this, and a doctrine for that, and so on and so on.

     What is the steps for being saved, from a Calvinist mind set. Tell it from your heart, and not from scripture, because scripture is supposed to be in your heart already.

     Does God give you faith to believe, or not?

     Is those not saved utterly depraved or not?

     How does one become utterly depraved?

     Ed

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101. My “bottom line”? My bottom line is this:

     JESUS SAVES SINNERS!!!

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